Question:
Tiger and the embedded boulder movers were no better. Since when is taking advantage of the rules bad sportsmanship?
Ever since there was a ruleset that didn’t include a requirement for good sportmanship. There is no other connection between sportmanship and rules other than it is unsportsmanlike to intentionally break them to gain an advantage. (Cheat) Is it against the rules to intentionally step on someones putting line or the extension of it? "Casually" commenting the water on the left? Exuberant celebration every time you win a hole in match play (While watching your opponent in the eye)? — -asbjxrn
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since when is taking advantage of the rules bad sportsmanship? Ever since there was a ruleset that didn’t include a requirement for good sportmanship. There is no other connection between sportmanship and rules other than it is unsportsmanlike to intentionally break them to gain an advantage. (Cheat) Is it against the rules to intentionally step on someones putting line or the extension of it? "Casually" commenting the water on the left? Exuberant celebration every time you win a hole in match play (While watching your opponent in the eye)? — -asbjxrn
I think you’re missing my point, perhaps on purpose. Getting a correct drop is not quite the same insult as the examples you’ve suggested. Perhaps you’d argue with a player who takes relief from a lateral hazard differently than you might, but if it’s within the rules it can hardly be called bad sportsmanhip. You’re suggesting outright unsportsmanship acts. I’m sure you understand the difference.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My impression is that it was not Annika that was the problem. It was the rules official. She did not take charge of the situation and state what needed to happen. The guys in the booth had it figured out in seconds. They knew it would be a 2 drop process and had they been in charge it would been drop, drop and hit it… no more than 5 minutes tops. But the real point is… man… what a lousy shot that put here there in the first place! This is surprising, given that Kendra Graham, the USGA’s rules guru, wa sthe official on the spot. Actually, although the process was slow, it seemed to me to be conducted couteously and professionally.
That much is true… it was not chaos by any means. But the official didn’t step up and say you get relief… drop here. Okay now you get relief again… drop here. Now hit it. There was a lot needless (IMO) walking to and fro and to and fro and to and fro. 
There was no raising of voices or beratinf of officials. If you are playing for the most important title in womens’ golf, I think it is better to take a little more time and get it right.
Only if you can’t get it right in less time… And I really don’t see why it took so long. As I said the guys in the booth (and Fay I beleive) called it right in an instant. If was several minutes after that before Annakia’s caddie even retrieved the ball. All wasted from my point of view. I think it was a failure to simply focus on one drop at a time that caused the extra delay.
Response:
or the so-called best player to try and cheat for better position is really sad. After her first drop she tried to imply that the board was in her way because she "would normally play to the right of the flag", even though the rule says relief is based on a straight line to the flag. What utter nonsense. She wasn’t trying to cheat, she had a legitimate question as to whether she could drop again because of her intended line. The TV announcers were saying how she was the *ONLY* player to ever attend a rules seminar. It’s hard to believe she wouldn’t have known the correct ruling before she ever opened her mouth.
I’ve seen rules officials have to ask for advice from other officials. Just happened a month or so ago when a PGA tourney was playing in lift clean and place rules. After the player set the ball down (I forget who it was) the ball moved, and he needed a ruling. The official on hand didn’t know what to do, and radioed another official.
Response:
I don’t see anything wrong with stating one’s case. It’s wrong IF you know the correct ruling will give you an unfavorable ball placement. Maybe she didn’t. And if she did not, then she, in the most polite of terms, is a poor student.
So what’s your evidence that she knew the correct ruling? Hell, the official sure didn’t seem to know what to do, as it took 15 minutes to resolve it. It’s not like she had a big hissy fit. But she did. She came across to me like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum. It was disgusting.
More nonsense. The rules can be a bit obscure sometimes, even to a person who attended a rules seminar in 1997. Obscure? You sound like someone who is blinded by loyalty.
Of course some of them are obscure. That’s why there’s an entire section in the rules book devoted to "decisions", because it’s obvious that under certain circumstances, the rules can be interpreted various ways.
Response:
KENDRA GRAHAM: No, it was one drop.
Fair enough. I find the following interesting for those who think Annika should have known EXACTLY what to do. Even the official had to ask for confirmation on the ruling: KENDRA GRAHAM: Well, you know, it’s been a long, busy week, and I just — I just kind of went through it step-by-step and wanted to make sure I had confirmation from Marsha Luigs, who is the walking rules official with the group, just make sure my thought process was correct.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, I couldn’t believe that Annika would take so much time trying to finagle a second drop. I think part of her strategy was to "ice" her competitors who were waiting behind her. I don’t think golf should be played like that. It was very unbecoming of her. I’m just thankful that her strategy didn’t work. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. She *DID* take, and was entitled to two drops. The first drop was relief from the fence, the second drop was relief from the scoreboard. Just because your hatred for certain players is obvious doesn’t change what happened out there. She entitled to question the ruling as well, and did so in a polite and professional manner. I seem to remember Tiger getting relief from some TV cabling because of his *INTENDED* line of play a year or two ago. He was behind a tree, and the drops that he took gave him a relatively wide open shot.
I was under the impression that she took one drop. http://www.uswomensopen.com/press/interviews/graham_sun.html RHONDA GLENN: The first drop, the first relief from the fence. KENDRA GRAHAM: No, it was all one process, it was just one drop. It was just one drop. RHONDA GLENN: They were saying on television she was going to take two drops. KENDRA GRAHAM: No, it was one drop. — http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=hayesd
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – or the so-called best player to try and cheat for better position is really sad. After her first drop she tried to imply that the board was in her way because she "would normally play to the right of the flag", even though the rule says relief is based on a straight line to the flag. What utter nonsense. She wasn’t trying to cheat, she had a legitimate question as to whether she could drop again because of her intended line. The TV announcers were saying how she was the *ONLY* player to ever attend a rules seminar. It’s hard to believe she wouldn’t have known the correct ruling before she ever opened her mouth. Jack I don’t see anything wrong with stating one’s case. It’s wrong IF you know the correct ruling will give you an unfavorable ball placement. Maybe she didn’t. And if she did not, then she, in the most polite of terms, is a poor student. It’s not like she had a big hissy fit. But she did. She came across to me like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum. It was disgusting. The rules can be a bit obscure sometimes, even to a person who attended a rules seminar in 1997. Obscure? You sound like someone who is blinded by loyalty. Jack
I just read an interview with the official who made the call. It’s at: http://www.uswomensopen.com/press/interviews/graham_sun.html and if you read it, you will see that the ruling was complex, that there were a number of factors for the decision taking so long, and that Annika behaved in a professional manner (in the official’s opinion). — Jim Sabatke Hire Me!! – See my resume at http://my.execpc.com/~jsabatke Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
Response:
My impression is that it was not Annika that was the problem. It was the rules official. She did not take charge of the situation and state what needed to happen. The guys in the booth had it figured out in seconds. They knew it would be a 2 drop process and had they been in charge it would been drop, drop and hit it… no more than 5 minutes tops. But the real point is… man… what a lousy shot that put here there in the first place!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, I couldn’t believe that Annika would take so much time trying to finagle a second drop. I think part of her strategy was to "ice" her competitors who were waiting behind her. I don’t think golf should be played like that. It was very unbecoming of her. I’m just thankful that her strategy didn’t work. @newssvr16.news.prodigy.com: Could you see Jack Nicklaus acting the same as Annika..knowing the two leaders were in the fairway behind him? What about Tiger? Ernie? Gary Player…maybe. It was not Annika’s finest hour… or the so-called best player to try and cheat for better position is really sad. After her first drop she tried to imply that the board was in her way because she "would normally play to the right of the flag", even though the rule says relief is based on a straight line to the flag. This is one of the reasons why I can’t support Annika. She is a poor sport, a selfish self-promotor and basically a loser, considering her talents. I really don’t see any thing wrong with trying to ice or intimidate your
opponents. I think its called gamesmanship. All is fair in love, war, and golf. Taz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Yeah, I couldn’t believe that Annika would take so much time trying to finagle a second drop. I think part of her strategy was to "ice" her competitors who were waiting behind her. I don’t think golf should be played like that. It was very unbecoming of her. I’m just thankful that her strategy didn’t work.
You really don’t know what you’re talking about. She *DID* take, and was entitled to two drops. The first drop was relief from the fence, the second drop was relief from the scoreboard. Just because your hatred for certain players is obvious doesn’t change what happened out there. She entitled to question the ruling as well, and did so in a polite and professional manner. I seem to remember Tiger getting relief from some TV cabling because of his *INTENDED* line of play a year or two ago. He was behind a tree, and the drops that he took gave him a relatively wide open shot.
Response:
My impression is that it was not Annika that was the problem. It was the rules official. She did not take charge of the situation and state what needed to happen. The guys in the booth had it figured out in seconds. They knew it would be a 2 drop process and had they been in charge it would been drop, drop and hit it… no more than 5 minutes tops. But the real point is… man… what a lousy shot that put here there in the first place!
This is surprising, given that Kendra Graham, the USGA’s rules guru, wa sthe official on the spot. Actually, although the process was slow, it seemed to me to be conducted couteously and professionally. There was no raising of voices or beratinf of officials. If you are playing for the most important title in womens’ golf, I think it is better to take a little more time and get it right. William Clark
Response:
It was shameful that the best player would try to a) pressure the rules
official b) play the hole in an illegal manner. Tiger and the embedded boulder movers were no better.
Response:
Tiger and the embedded boulder movers were no better.
Since when is taking advantage of the rules bad sportsmanship?
Response:
But she did. She came across to me like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum. It was disgusting.< You obviously were watching something that I didn’t see. IMO she handled it pretty well, along with the post round interview. Chris S.
Then I guess you and I both saw and heard the same thing, Chris. As she said in the post round interview, she hit it in there so she had to take the lumps. I thought she handled it pretty well indeed. Her questioning of the ruling was if it applied only to line of sight to the pin, or intended line of the shot. The US Women’s Open title was on the line, so she had to be sure she had the correct ruling, especially on where to measure her point of relief and where her options were for the drop. That said, it did take a bit long to get it all decided. I think we could all name certain players on both mens and women’s tours who would not have handled the situation or the post round interview as gracefully. — David Hi-Tech Turf – Synthetic Turf Applications RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members?rollcall=sneddond email: dsneddon AT cogeco DOT ca
Response:
Could you see Jack Nicklaus acting the same as Annika..knowing the two leaders were in the fairway behind him? What about Tiger? Ernie? Gary Player…maybe. It was not Annika’s finest hour…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – or the so-called best player to try and cheat for better position is really sad. After her first drop she tried to imply that the board was in her way because she "would normally play to the right of the flag", even though the rule says relief is based on a straight line to the flag. This is one of the reasons why I can’t support Annika. She is a poor sport, a selfish self-promotor and basically a loser, considering her talents.
Response:
But she did. She came across to me like a spoiled brat throwing a
tantrum. It was disgusting.< You obviously were watching something that I didn’t see. IMO she handled it pretty well, along with the post round interview. Chris S.
Response:
The ‘Rukr" in question was said to be a local rule given to the players at the start of teh event. It’s easy to see how there may be some confusion, because if there’s a wire or the like (like a cart path) that interefers with your intended line of play (and it need not be towards the hole) you aare intitled to relief. That was probably covered in the course she took. I don’t know of a rule that specifies the interference counts only if it’s in the direction of the hole. Asking for a ruling sure makes sense. We play by the rules when they make things more difficult, there’s no harm in seeing if they can make things easier. An example of interference of the sort I mentioned is if you’re a right handed player, your ball is on the side of the cart path away from the fairway, on a dog leg left, so that the path would not interfer if you were going to the green (so no relief would be available) , but it would be if your intention was to chip to the fairway.
Response:
Yeah, I couldn’t believe that Annika would take so much time trying to finagle a second drop. I think part of her strategy was to "ice" her competitors who were waiting behind her. I don’t think golf should be played like that. It was very unbecoming of her. I’m just thankful that her strategy didn’t work. @newssvr16.news.prodigy.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you see Jack Nicklaus acting the same as Annika..knowing the two leaders were in the fairway behind him? What about Tiger? Ernie? Gary Player…maybe. It was not Annika’s finest hour… or the so-called best player to try and cheat for better position is really sad. After her first drop she tried to imply that the board was in her way because she "would normally play to the right of the flag", even though the rule says relief is based on a straight line to the flag. This is one of the reasons why I can’t support Annika. She is a poor sport, a selfish self-promotor and basically a loser, considering her talents.
Response:
<clip The TV announcers were saying how she was the *ONLY* player to ever attend a rules seminar. It’s hard to believe she wouldn’t have known the correct ruling before she ever opened her mouth. Jack I don’t see anything wrong with stating one’s case. It’s wrong IF you know the correct ruling will give you an unfavorable ball placement. Maybe she didn’t. And if she did not, then she, in the most polite of terms, is a poor student. It’s not like she had a big hissy fit. But she did. She came across to me like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum. It was disgusting.
<clip You don’t know a whole lot about the tour do you? I’ve been able to walk inside the ropes with a touring pro friend…and Annika didn’t come close to the arguments that I’ve heard. Players have every right to argue a ruling, and they do. A lot! Remember that the ruling is just that….a decision made at the point by an official…and they have been wrong in the past. ___ o ’ | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. Ignore them and they’ll go away.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – or the so-called best player to try and cheat for better position is really sad. After her first drop she tried to imply that the board was in her way because she "would normally play to the right of the flag", even though the rule says relief is based on a straight line to the flag. What utter nonsense. She wasn’t trying to cheat, she had a legitimate question as to whether she could drop again because of her intended line. The TV announcers were saying how she was the *ONLY* player to ever attend a rules seminar. It’s hard to believe she wouldn’t have known the correct ruling before she ever opened her mouth. Jack I don’t see anything wrong with stating one’s case. It’s wrong IF you know the correct ruling will give you an unfavorable ball placement. Maybe she didn’t. And if she did not, then she, in the most polite of terms, is a poor student. It’s not like she had a big hissy fit. But she did. She came across to me like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum. It was disgusting.
Exactly. She and her caddy were actually negotiating with the rules official, trying to get around the rules. Her caddy suggested "what if we’re aiming right of the flag?" This tells me that they knew the rule that offers relief if you do not have a clear shot in a direct line to the flag. It was shameful that the best player would try to a) pressure the rules official b) play the hole in an illegal manner.
Response:
<snip The rules can be a bit obscure sometimes, even to a person who attended a rules seminar in 1997. Obscure? You sound like someone who is blinded by loyalty.
Nah, I just try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Actually, when I met Annika I thought she was rather rude. I have other favorites on the tour. I still admire her game though. — Jim Sabatke Hire Me!! – See my resume at http://my.execpc.com/~jsabatke Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
Response:
or the so-called best player to try and cheat for better position is really sad. After her first drop she tried to imply that the board was in her way because she "would normally play to the right of the flag", even though the rule says relief is based on a straight line to the flag.
What utter nonsense. She wasn’t trying to cheat, she had a legitimate question as to whether she could drop again because of her intended line. She didn’t argue with the rules official, she questioned the rules official, and accepted the answer. Get a life.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – or the so-called best player to try and cheat for better position is really sad. After her first drop she tried to imply that the board was in her way because she "would normally play to the right of the flag", even though the rule says relief is based on a straight line to the flag. What utter nonsense. She wasn’t trying to cheat, she had a legitimate question as to whether she could drop again because of her intended line. The TV announcers were saying how she was the *ONLY* player to ever attend a rules seminar. It’s hard to believe she wouldn’t have known the correct ruling before she ever opened her mouth. Jack
I don’t see anything wrong with stating one’s case. It’s not like she had a big hissy fit. The rules can be a bit obscure sometimes, even to a person who attended a rules seminar in 1997. — Jim Sabatke Hire Me!! – See my resume at http://my.execpc.com/~jsabatke Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
Response:
or the so-called best player to try and cheat for better position is really sad. After her first drop she tried to imply that the board was in her way because she "would normally play to the right of the flag", even though the rule says relief is based on a straight line to the flag. This is one of the reasons why I can’t support Annika. She is a poor sport, a selfish self-promotor and basically a loser, considering her talents.