Nope, Only the Triple Crown (or whatever), accomplished by Trevino and Woods. Tiger, are you listening?
No. Tiger’s not listening. But maybe intern-boy from the Golf Channel is plugged in, and can stir things up? Before you buy.
Hey Colin, I was at Pebble Beach in May 1998 – boy, it was worth every penny! Stayed for a couple of days at a little place in Carmel that was absolutely fabulous for only about US$100 per night. It was so great, I even proposed to my girlfriend (now wife) there! What better backdrop than with Pebble in the background! Cheers — Richard Apperly
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It does make prices out here incredibly cheap, but my visit to Pebble Beach is now totally out of the question, unless I sell the house.
The falling value of the Australian dollar (now worth little more than 50 US cents), Oh boy … time to check and see if I’ve got enough in my Australian vacation fund …
One of the top US analysts on the Australian economy said this morning he believed the US dollar was now over-valued by about 40 per cent compared to the Aussie dollar. He suggested that the current exchange rate might hold for up to a year or so, but in the long run you probably won’t get two Aussie dollars to the US dollar again. It does make prices out here incredibly cheap, but my visit to Pebble Beach is now totally out of the question, unless I sell the house. I can’t imagine paying a green fee of A$800 … I can play Trentham every day for *four years* for that much. 
Cheers Colin Wilson Australian handicap: 10.4 RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
few US golfers can be prised away from home for only US$650,000 overall prize money. As well, appearance fees of the top golfers, like Tiger Woods’ standard US$1 million (which has escalated to A$1.9 million), are now not even considered by local promoters.
I’m surprised that Tiger wouldn’t consider a smaller appearance fee for the opportunity to win 4 opens in one year. Has anyone ever done that? Before you buy.
Nope, Only the Triple Crown (or whatever), accomplished by Trevino and Woods. Tiger, are you listening? Is there a trip to Australia in your future (other that for the WGC Matchplay)? I would be interesting. Larry Connor
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m surprised that Tiger wouldn’t consider a smaller appearance fee for the opportunity to win 4 opens in one year. Has anyone ever done that? Before you buy.
The falling value of the Australian dollar (now worth little more than 50 US cents),
Oh boy … time to check and see if I’ve got enough in my Australian vacation fund … -joseph
The Australian Open opens the "home" events of the Australasian Tour for the year at Kingston Heath on November 24, but not without the continued difficulty of prizemoney and field quality. The falling value of the Australian dollar (now worth little more than 50 US cents), combined with the preference of the top international golfers for the World Matchplay in January, has conspired to limit field quality in the Open. Although the event received a 25% prizemoney boost for 2000 to A$1.25 million, this is now little more comparatively than previous years, and few US golfers can be prised away from home for only US$650,000 overall prize money. As well, appearance fees of the top golfers, like Tiger Woods’ standard US$1 million (which has escalated to A$1.9 million), are now not even considered by local promoters. However, the field is not without some interest for spectators. Mark O’Meara, Nick Faldo and Greg Norman provide a "best of the forty-somethings" flavour and renew old rivalries. Padraig Harrington is the highest-ranked player in the field. At the other end of the age range, Aaron Baddeley is back to defend (still only 19, he’ll turn pro on November 1), along with the upcoming Adam Scott and the current British Amateur Champion, Finland’s Mikko Ilonen. The usual Aussie USPGA Tour golfers like Robert Allenby, Stuart Appleby, Greg Chalmers and Craig Parry will make the event (Steve Elkington, as usual, will not). Australian Golf Union executive director Colin Phillips has suggested that with a population of only 19 million, Australia cannot continue maintaining a 12-event summer tour, given the wealth now on offer in the USA and Europe. He has suggested that the Australasian Tour should be limited to six premium events. So it’s possible that in future some of the lesser Australasian Tour events, such as the Ford Open, Canon Challenge, Victorian Open and Australian PGA, may be hived off by making them "major" events on the lesser Australian Development Tour. This would leave the main tour to comprise only the Johnny Walker, Australian Open, Australian Masters, Greg Norman International, Heineken Classic, the ANZ Championship and possibly the NZ Open. Cheers Colin Wilson Australian handicap: 10.4 RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
I was going to post an explanation for the prior posters but this one is very good and right on the money-I’m a doc.Paul-Are you sure it’s not Associate Professor of Medicine? *snip*Because the circulation to tendons is *very* poor, it takes them a *very* long time to
heal.*snip* Also another reason is that we golfers don’t/won’t give it time to rest. Tom "half this game is ninety percent mental" Yogi Berra RSG Rollcall http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/bielanskit.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Golfer’s elbow, most commonly in the right arm for right handed golfers (thus in the dominant arm), is called medial epicondylitis because it is on the side of the elbow closest to the middle (medial) of the body. It tends to result from an overactive right hand/forearm through and after the moment of impact, esp. combined with too tight a grip. Tennis elbow (which occurs in the racket holding arm in tennis) is most often associated with the elbow of the golfer’s other arm *when the golfer already has golfer’s elbow*. The exact same movement that produces golfer’s elbow in one arm also leads to tennis elbow in the other arm. Tennis elbow is called lateral epicondylitis because it is on the side of the elbow farthest from (lateral to) the middle of the body. Generally, in anatomy, medial (central) and lateral (peripheral) refer to opposite directions. The epicondyles are the bony bumps on the medial and lateral sides of the elbow. The particular maladies, golfer’s and tennis elbow, come about when the tendons that attach the forearm muscles to the epicondyles get irritated and inflamed. Because the circulation to tendons is *very* poor, it takes them a *very* long time to heal. — Associate Professor of Reading Western Michigan University
– Before you buy.
Golfer’s elbow, most commonly in the right arm for right handed golfers (thus in the dominant arm), is called medial epicondylitis because it is on the side of the elbow closest to the middle (medial) of the body. It tends to result from an overactive right hand/forearm through and after the moment of impact, esp. combined with too tight a grip. Tennis elbow (which occurs in the racket holding arm in tennis) is most often associated with the elbow of the golfer’s other arm *when the golfer already has golfer’s elbow*. The exact same movement that produces golfer’s elbow in one arm also leads to tennis elbow in the other arm. Tennis elbow is called lateral epicondylitis because it is on the side of the elbow farthest from (lateral to) the middle of the body. Generally, in anatomy, medial (central) and lateral (peripheral) refer to opposite directions. The epicondyles are the bony bumps on the medial and lateral sides of the elbow. The particular maladies, golfer’s and tennis elbow, come about when the tendons that attach the forearm muscles to the epicondyles get irritated and inflamed. Because the circulation to tendons is *very* poor, it takes them a *very* long time to heal. — Associate Professor of Reading Western Michigan University
I think I should be a doctor…with a bedside manner like this! (That will be $300 please!) david
Well Doc, my HMO will only allow you to charge me $32.63 for that and guess what, you docs make way too much money so I’m not gonna pay that either.
A *bursa* is a sac or sac-like cavity that reduces friction in any joint. Bursitis is an inflammation of the bursa (just like tendonitis to a tendon).
Trust an ex-teacher to spoil my party! david
Bursitis is an inflamation of the ‘burse’ (whatever that is!….part of the heel tendons I think). A ‘tennis elbow’ or ‘golfer’s elbow is also known as a lateral ’something or other’-itis…the word ‘itis’ means inflamation. The lateral thingy is the bit where the tendon attatches to the bone at the elbow.
A *bursa* is a sac or sac-like cavity that reduces friction in any joint. Bursitis is an inflammation of the bursa (just like tendonitis to a tendon). Cheers Colin Wilson
I think its called bursitis!
I think its called bursitis!
Bursitis is an inflamation of the ‘burse’ (whatever that is!….part of the heel tendons I think). A ‘tennis elbow’ or ‘golfer’s elbow is also known as a lateral ’something or other’-itis…the word ‘itis’ means inflamation. The lateral thingy is the bit where the tendon attatches to the bone at the elbow. I think I should be a doctor…with a bedside manner like this! (That will be $300 please!) david
Anyone else have any experience with a tendonitis type pain in the right elbow? Can playing or practicing too much contribute to such a condition? Or maybe something I’m doing wrong in my swing?
I have it in my left elbow/arm…..and it has been causing a painful problem for about 10 weeks now. I have had physio attention with only temporary relief…and I have had clinical massage covering the whole shoulder region and down the arm with some small improvement. I have recently been hearing reports that this could be a problem in the neck region which is referring the pain to the arm……and I have spoken to two people who had the problem fixed through chiropractic manipulation in this area…I intend to persue this after the weekend..I will let you know if it does the trick….(I just hate the head wrenching part with all the clicks and cracks etc…..but, will try anything now!) david
I’ve heard hitting off astroturf can aggravate the tendons. Just a rumor.
I wouldn’t doubt it, I use to practice off of those astroturf mats and had more pain in my joints than when I hit off grass. Than again the mats were on concrete which didn’t help.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone else have any experience with a tendonitis type pain in the right elbow? Can playing or practicing too much contribute to such a condition? Or maybe something I’m doing wrong in my swing? I just started playing about a year ago and got totally hooked. I try to hit a bucket of balls 2 or 3 times a week, on top of usually playing 9 holes twice a week (and that’s over 90 shots too since I’m still struggling just to play bogey golf). Just last week this pain in my right elbow started to flair up. Nothing unbearable, and I can even still play as it seem to loosen up a bit as I swing, but no fun either. Just wondering if anybody had any remedies that worked for them. Thanks. Rob stretching before and after your games or driving range sessions, hold out straight arm in front, say right arm, palm down.using left hand pulling the back of the right hand slowly toward your body and hold for 10 seconds then let go. repeat 10 / 20 times, do it on both arms. I normally do this by pressing the back of my hands on the steering wheel while driving to the course. asap after the game, use ice on affected area for 15,20 minutes. learnt this from my therapitst, seem to work. Vit
This article ( http://www.ocregister.com/sports/golfextra/ftip00928cci.shtml ) was in yesterday’s local rag. It may be of some use to you. I know that lifting light weights has helped my tendinitis, but then so did breaking bones each each hand at different times which took the golf clubs out my hands. I don’t recommend the latter course of treatment although after I mentioned it to a friend of mine, he did fall off a latter and break some ribs which cured his tendinitis. ;=) Dave Hamdorf
I’ve heard hitting off astroturf can aggravate the tendons. Just a rumor.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone else have any experience with a tendonitis type pain in the right elbow? Can playing or practicing too much contribute to such a condition? Or maybe something I’m doing wrong in my swing? I just started playing about a year ago and got totally hooked. I try to hit a bucket of balls 2 or 3 times a week, on top of usually playing 9 holes twice a week (and that’s over 90 shots too since I’m still struggling just to play bogey golf). Just last week this pain in my right elbow started to flair up. Nothing unbearable, and I can even still play as it seem to loosen up a bit as I swing, but no fun either. Just wondering if anybody had any remedies that worked for them. Thanks. Rob
handed golfers who experience elbow pain more frequently have it in their right or left elbow? Re:rec.sport.golf
I am not sure of which elbow is more frequently to bother you. I was in pain myself for almost 2 years. I had pain in my wrist,which made everyday tasks very difficult for me. I stumbled upon a website (www.worldwidemagnets.com) that I found of interest,it spoke of magnet therapy. I purchased a wristband from them and have seen a great difference in my wrist. P.S. They also spoke of elbow pain in golfers, and of some top golfers that use their magnets. Hope this helps! andrea_cappy Before you buy.
Anyone else have any experience with a tendonitis type pain in the right elbow? Can playing or practicing too much contribute to such a condition? Or maybe something I’m doing wrong in my swing? I just started playing about a year ago and got totally hooked. I try to hit a bucket of balls 2 or 3 times a week, on top of usually playing 9 holes twice a week (and that’s over 90 shots too since I’m still struggling just to play bogey golf). Just last week this pain in my right elbow started to flair up. Nothing unbearable, and I can even still play as it seem to loosen up a bit as I swing, but no fun either. Just wondering if anybody had any remedies that worked for them. Thanks. Rob
stretching before and after your games or driving range sessions, hold out straight arm in front, say right arm, palm down.using left hand pulling the back of the right hand slowly toward your body and hold for 10 seconds then let go. repeat 10 / 20 times, do it on both arms. I normally do this by pressing the back of my hands on the steering wheel while driving to the course. asap after the game, use ice on affected area for 15,20 minutes. learnt this from my therapitst, seem to work. Vit
I’m right handed, and the pain I’m experiencing is on the outside of my right elbow (right on the little knobby bone). I’ve learned that this is usually called "tennis elbow" as opposed to "golfer’s elbow" (pain on the inside), but the names are just for convenience and don’t mean the injury only occurs in that sport. It’s a form of tedonitis probably caused by a combination of flexing or extending the wrist and impact. It appears that the recommended action is rest and anti-inflamation treatments (ice and ibuprofen to start). For bad cases the doc can administer a cortisone shot and surgery could be a last resort in severe cases. Mine is pretty mild, so I’m going to try and stay away from the driving range for a while (I think the hard mats contribute) and maybe just play 9 holes once or twice a week to see if that helps (or at least doesn’t make it any worse). Would hate to have to stop altogether even for a few weeks, but if it comes to that … 8^( Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – golfers who experience elbow pain more frequently have it in their right or left elbow?
Yes. — Ball Marks: Fix yours and one more
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip (I think the hard mats contribute) <snip
I’m getting it in my left elbow (right handed golfer). More importantly, I just realized that I’m a jerk for not recognizing sooner that this is the exact problem I had in my right elbow when I played racquetball (tendonitis). Aside from treating it with rest, ice, anti-inflammatories, ultrasound, etc., I know how to prevent it from recuring. For raquetball, my doctor had me start stretching my forearm by placing my arm straight out against a wall. The back of the hand presses against the wall, (fingers pointing down). I then do the same stretch with my palm against the wall, fingers pointing up. It would be nice if I had thought to do this before the tendonitis had appeared. Ted I’ve had it in both elbows, probably more times in the left than the right (I’m right handed). Kenny
says… handed golfers who experience elbow pain more frequently have it in their right or left elbow? Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
Before you buy.
I’ve had it in both elbows, probably more times in the left than the right (I’m right handed). Kenny says… golfers who experience elbow pain more frequently have it in their right or left elbow?
Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
handed golfers who experience elbow pain more frequently have it in their right or left elbow?
Wegs begs the question…..are you right or left handed? I’m right handed and I’m having right elbow problems. — Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
golfers who experience elbow pain more frequently have it in their right or left elbow?
It will get worse, believe me. Although the pain might not be severe as yet, constant play will inflame the sac of fluid in the elbow, and then you’ll not only see how painful it is, but you’ll have a long recovery phase. I’m no doc, but I’ve had the complaint, and that’s the report I got. FWIW, I use a forearm support when I feel any twinge in that area – it seems to stop any further deterioriation and within a couple of days it goes away )using the brace even when not playing. And I’ve also used anti-inflammatory drugs on the drs. suggestion – they stopped the pain, but I don’t think they shortened recovery. — Regards Barrie Smart The Wizard of Oz!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone else have any experience with a tendonitis type pain in the right elbow? Can playing or practicing too much contribute to such a condition? Or maybe something I’m doing wrong in my swing? I just started playing about a year ago and got totally hooked. I try to hit a bucket of balls 2 or 3 times a week, on top of usually playing 9 holes twice a week (and that’s over 90 shots too since I’m still struggling just to play bogey golf). Just last week this pain in my right elbow started to flair up. Nothing unbearable, and I can even still play as it seem to loosen up a bit as I swing, but no fun either. Just wondering if anybody had any remedies that worked for them. Thanks. Rob
Anyone else have any experience with a tendonitis type pain in the right elbow? Can playing or practicing too much contribute to such a condition? Or maybe something I’m doing wrong in my swing? I just started playing about a year ago and got totally hooked. I try to hit a bucket of balls 2 or 3 times a week, on top of usually playing 9 holes twice a week (and that’s over 90 shots too since I’m still struggling just to play bogey golf). Just last week this pain in my right elbow started to flair up. Nothing unbearable, and I can even still play as it seem to loosen up a bit as I swing, but no fun either. Just wondering if anybody had any remedies that worked for them. Thanks. Rob
I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to.
Well, "man of color" is kind of a vague term. Basically it means your not Caucasian. And I agree that making a point of mentioning it is (while politically correct, because after all we are celebrating minorities, yeah right) actually exclusionary. Basically it reminds us that he is "different". Unfortunately the media does this all the time. I mean how many times do we have to see every little thing broken down by race. Why not by hair color or length of fingernails? Every time you see a breakdown by race, they are clearly reinforcing the belief that you should not look upon all people as equal. On a side note, Tiger Woods is 25% Native American, 25% African, and 50% Asian. Yet he is constantly refered to as an African American. Why? Because the media is superficial and only looks at skin color. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to.
– Jaster Before you buy.
I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to.
Is this bait? Seems like you’re the only one trying to make an issue out of this. — "Can this be still a dream?" Raskolnikov once again asked himself.
The bait was already cast by the use of the "man of color" term in several locations. Maybe this thread is more suited for a political n.g. than a golf n.g.; I don’t know. Anyway, congratulations to Vijay! On a side note, when my family and I were living in Kenya in the late ’80’s (my father was with the State Department), we went to the Kenya Open in March of 1988, and guess who was in the last group on the Sunday of that tournament…Vijay Singh! I feel like I kind of discovered him, so it’s neat to see him playing so well on tour for the past six to seven years. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to. Is this bait? Seems like you’re the only one trying to make an issue out of this.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to.
This is a specious argument either way. There are no objective criteria for saying someone is black or not, let alone the even more vague term "person of color." Before you buy.
Two words, "who cares" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, "man of color" is kind of a vague term. Basically it means your not Caucasian. And I agree that making a point of mentioning it is (while politically correct, because after all we are celebrating minorities, yeah right) actually exclusionary. Basically it reminds us that he is "different". Unfortunately the media does this all the time. I mean how many times do we have to see every little thing broken down by race. Why not by hair color or length of fingernails? Every time you see a breakdown by race, they are clearly reinforcing the belief that you should not look upon all people as equal. On a side note, Tiger Woods is 25% Native American, 25% African, and 50% Asian. Yet he is constantly refered to as an African American. Why? Because the media is superficial and only looks at skin color. I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to. — Jaster Before you buy.
Vijay *is* "a man of color" – he just isn’t African-American. – Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to.
I don’t think that the media is superficial. It is just reality that 99% of America thinks Tiger is black. Fuzzy Zoeller sure did. He did not make a joke about Tiger wanting any Thai food or American Indian food for his champion’s dinner. But, as I said, who cares.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, "man of color" is kind of a vague term. Basically it means your not Caucasian. And I agree that making a point of mentioning it is (while politically correct, because after all we are celebrating minorities, yeah right) actually exclusionary. Basically it reminds us that he is "different". Unfortunately the media does this all the time. I mean how many times do we have to see every little thing broken down by race. Why not by hair color or length of fingernails? Every time you see a breakdown by race, they are clearly reinforcing the belief that you should not look upon all people as equal. On a side note, Tiger Woods is 25% Native American, 25% African, and 50% Asian. Yet he is constantly refered to as an African American. Why? Because the media is superficial and only looks at skin color. I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to. — Jaster Before you buy.
David, The term "man of color" is a colloquiual phrase used by bigoted americans of northern european decent to describe any person with a noticable amount of pigmentation in their skin. The term appiles equally to blacks, amerindians, hispanics, etc. The term is most often used by those who do not consider themselves to be racist. However, use of the term does not automatically indicate that the person using it is a racist. I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. <snip
– Dan Driscoll Current USGA Handicap Index – 16.1 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Keep Usenet Clean, Trash a Spammer!
David, The term "man of color" is a colloquiual phrase used by bigoted americans of northern european decent to describe any person with a noticable amount of pigmentation in their skin. The term appiles equally to blacks, amerindians, hispanics, etc. The term is most often used by those who do not consider themselves to be racist. However, use of the term does not automatically indicate that the person using it is a racist.
I can’t agree with all of what you said above. I hear "person of color" most from African-Americans. Not in person, but on television. I don’t see the need to differentiate with the exception of when you are describing how a person looks for some purpose. For example, if you are describing a person that commited a crime, it is easy to have a starting place, like "A white male, blond hair, blue eyes, tall, around 6′2", about 250 pounds…" In that case or similar cases, it makes it easier to paint a word picture. Otherwise, why care. I am what you would call "white", but I have color(pigment) too, so I don’t think the phrase is very accurate. I usually hear other words from bigots like the N word, "black", negro, etc. It is hard to keep up with what we are "supposed" to call people. Negro, then black, then African-American or "people of color". I just prefer not to worry about it and refrain from saying it at all when not necessary. When it is necessary I try to be the most PC I can be depending on the people I am with. With my black friends I just say black. With people I don’t know or who I know to be sensitive about it I say African-American. Why offend people when you can avoid it? Of course, this is only when it is necessary like this weekend when I was trying to help somebody remember a person we knew a long time ago. i.e. "You remember him, don’t you? No? He would be about 35 or 40 now. He’s black, kind of dark, heavy though he has lost weight now. Always had a mustache. One bad eye that didn’t open all the way. Worked at the drive-in, etc., etc."
IMO the term "person of color" is like Jesse Jacksons Rainbow Coalition, there is only one color involved. I remember going to my college scholarship board, applying for a minority scholarship (I am asian) and the lady asked what I was doing. I said "applying for a minority scholarship" and she replied " but you aren’t African American, Hispanic, Native American or Eskimo". The world sees only what it wants to see. Peter Humble reader of ASC.
Obviously not you, Keith Barkley. Two words, "who cares"
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, "man of color" is kind of a vague term. Basically it means your not Caucasian. And I agree that making a point of mentioning it is (while politically correct, because after all we are celebrating minorities, yeah right) actually exclusionary. Basically it reminds us that he is "different". Unfortunately the media does this all the time. I mean how many times do we have to see every little thing broken down by race. Why not by hair color or length of fingernails? Every time you see a breakdown by race, they are clearly reinforcing the belief that you should not look upon all people as equal. On a side note, Tiger Woods is 25% Native American, 25% African, and 50% Asian. Yet he is constantly refered to as an African American. Why? Because the media is superficial and only looks at skin color. I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to. — Jaster Before you buy.
– Jaster Before you buy.
99% of people think he is black, because the media keeps saying so. You dont think that if every magazine article, newspaper report, and tv discussion called him asian instead of black 99% of people would still think he is mainly black? As for who cares whether the media does or does not add to the racism in this country, I care. I guess you dont. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think that the media is superficial. It is just reality that 99% of America thinks Tiger is black. Fuzzy Zoeller sure did. He did not make a joke about Tiger wanting any Thai food or American Indian food for his champion’s dinner. But, as I said, who cares. Well, "man of color" is kind of a vague term. Basically it means your not Caucasian. And I agree that making a point of mentioning it is (while politically correct, because after all we are celebrating minorities, yeah right) actually exclusionary. Basically it reminds us that he is "different". Unfortunately the media does this all the time. I mean how many times do we have to see every little thing broken down by race. Why not by hair color or length of fingernails? Every time you see a breakdown by race, they are clearly reinforcing the belief that you should not look upon all people as equal. On a side note, Tiger Woods is 25% Native American, 25% African, and 50% Asian. Yet he is constantly refered to as an African American. Why? Because the media is superficial and only looks at skin color. I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to. — Jaster Before you buy.
– Jaster Before you buy.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David, The term "man of color" is a colloquiual phrase used by bigoted americans of northern european decent to describe any person with a noticable amount of pigmentation in their skin. The term appiles equally to blacks, amerindians, hispanics, etc. The term is most often used by those who do not consider themselves to be racist. However, use of the term does not automatically indicate that the person using it is a racist. I can’t agree with all of what you said above. I hear "person of color" most from African-Americans. Not in person, but on television. I don’t see the need to differentiate with the exception of when you are describing how a person looks for some purpose. For example, if you are describing a person that commited a crime, it is easy to have a starting place, like "A white male, blond hair, blue eyes, tall, around 6′2", about 250 pounds…" In that case or similar cases, it makes it easier to paint a word picture. Otherwise, why care.
I totally agree, but no one is saying that he is the 5th player to win the Masters over 6′2" or, with black hair, or with brown eyes, or over 200 lbs, or whatever. You see how that would be besides the point and not important, yet the media has to point out to us he is a "person of color". Therefore, not treating skin color as just a superficial unimportant thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am what you would call "white", but I have color(pigment) too, so I don’t think the phrase is very accurate. I usually hear other words from bigots like the N word, "black", negro, etc. It is hard to keep up with what we are "supposed" to call people. Negro, then black, then African-American or "people of color". I just prefer not to worry about it and refrain from saying it at all when not necessary. When it is necessary I try to be the most PC I can be depending on the people I am with. With my black friends I just say black. With people I don’t know or who I know to be sensitive about it I say African-American. Why offend people when you can avoid it? Of course, this is only when it is necessary like this weekend when I was trying to help somebody remember a person we knew a long time ago. i.e. "You remember him, don’t you? No? He would be about 35 or 40 now. He’s black, kind of dark, heavy though he has lost weight now. Always had a mustache. One bad eye that didn’t open all the way. Worked at the drive-in, etc., etc."
As a description that seems fine to me, since every word of it is true and useful. However, this is because you are trying to describe how someone looks. Clearly skin color is part of how one looks. — Jaster Before you buy.
Well, "man of color" is kind of a vague term. Basically it means your not Caucasian.
Even us caucasians have some color. Let’s just say Vijay, Tiger, Lee Elder and Fuzzy are all homo sapiens and leave it at that.
Black…White…who cares… The Jacket is Green, and he won it. Way to go Vijay ! CJ
I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to.
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The term "man of color" is a colloquiual phrase used by bigoted americans of northern european decent to describe any person with a noticable amount of pigmentation in their skin. The term appiles equally to blacks, amerindians, hispanics, etc. The term is most often used by those who do not consider themselves to be racist. However, use of the term does not automatically indicate that the person using it is a racist.
This is way off. In US academia at least the phrase "person of color" is a popular buzz-phrase (especially current among so-called multicultural and ethnic diversity advocates). It refers to any non-Caucasian or any person with darkly pigmented skin–regardless of his or her country or continent of origin. Many African-American leaders (including Jesse Jackson) and organizations (including the NAACP) currently use the term–and they do so for a very politically motivated reason: namely (1) to promote a sense of world-wide racial solidarity among all non-Caucasians and (2) to enforce the dogma that all white Americans (who are presumably "people of non-color") discriminate against ALL darker-skinned peoples of the world, not just against African-American blacks. In short, contrary to your post, the phrase "person of color" has entered into the standard PC lexicon and is now a fully-approved usage in US media and in most universities. The Masters included three Japanese, a German, a couple of Scots, 3 Brits, a Welshman, a Frog, a Northern Irishman, 4 Spaniards, a Paraguayan, a Korean, a Canuck, a Swede, 3 South Africans, 4 or 5 Aussies, a guy from Zimbabwe, and a self-described "Cablinasian" in addition to Vijay. That’s plenty of color. Now can we please get back to golf? — "Can this be still a dream?" Raskolnikov once again asked himself.
How ironic is this post?!!! I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to.
Scottb
Appropriately, in Sinhalese (Sri Lanka), Vijay Singh (Wijeyesinghe) means "Victorious Lion" – well done Vijay! Peter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Black…White…who cares… The Jacket is Green, and he won it. Way to go Vijay ! CJ
I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various
newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and
not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to. You’re right about him not being black. He is brown skinned, but you’re probably bringing this up, because of the racism that has been associated with the sport in the past, and perhaps to some extent, now. Anyways, I don’t see why skin color is important, the most important thing is he is one the top golfers on the tour, and is a threat at any of the Grand Slam events, like Tiger. But there are people want to bring race into everything. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
The Jacket is Green, and he won it.
Um, I think you’re supposed to say "Jacket of Color." Before you buy.
Hey Jaster, guess what I do care and guess what, I am Black, 100%. Wake up, buddy, most Black people in this country can make the same argument that Tiger can about his heritage. That is a lingering vestige of slavery. Don’t pick a fight with me on race buddy, because what I am saying is that I don’t care if Vijay considers himself Black, or Fijian or Indian, he won the friggin most prestigious tournament of the year, and we digress on what color he is. I repeat I don’t care about what Tiger checks himself off as on his Census form. And you are delusional if you think that the media brainwashes people into thinking that Tiger is Black. It is based on his features. How many people would consider Derek Jeter, Halle Berry (yeah baby) or Rod Woodson white, they are half black half white, but by and large everyone considers them Black. It is just reality.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 99% of people think he is black, because the media keeps saying so. You dont think that if every magazine article, newspaper report, and tv discussion called him asian instead of black 99% of people would still think he is mainly black? As for who cares whether the media does or does not add to the racism in this country, I care. I guess you dont. I don’t think that the media is superficial. It is just reality that 99% of America thinks Tiger is black. Fuzzy Zoeller sure did. He did not make a joke about Tiger wanting any Thai food or American Indian food for his champion’s dinner. But, as I said, who cares. Well, "man of color" is kind of a vague term. Basically it means your not Caucasian. And I agree that making a point of mentioning it is (while politically correct, because after all we are celebrating minorities, yeah right) actually exclusionary. Basically it reminds us that he is "different". Unfortunately the media does this all the time. I mean how many times do we have to see every little thing broken down by race. Why not by hair color or length of fingernails? Every time you see a breakdown by race, they are clearly reinforcing the belief that you should not look upon all people as equal. On a side note, Tiger Woods is 25% Native American, 25% African, and 50% Asian. Yet he is constantly refered to as an African American. Why? Because the media is superficial and only looks at skin color. I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to. — Jaster Before you buy. — Jaster Before you buy.
Hey Jaster, guess what I do care and guess what, I am Black, 100%.
Wake up, Why dont you wake up. I certainly never said you werent black. The only Barkley I know is Charles Barkley and he is black. So what the hell is your beef? buddy, most Black people in this country can make the same argument that Tiger can about his heritage. That is a lingering vestige of slavery. Don’t pick a fight with me on race buddy, because what I am saying is that I don’t care if Vijay considers himself Black, or Fijian or Indian, he won the friggin most prestigious tournament of the year, and we digress on what color he is. I repeat I don’t care about what Tiger checks himself off as on his Census form.
Try reading the discussion. No one has said one word about what Tiger or Vijay consider themselves. We are talking about what other people consider them and why and if it is right. And you are delusional if you think that the media brainwashes people into thinking that Tiger is Black.
The media decides what we do or do not know about public figures. To inform us is their job. That they continually get this information wrong is a crime. It is based on his features. How many people would consider Derek Jeter, Halle Berry (yeah baby) or Rod Woodson white, they are half black half white, but by and large everyone considers them Black.
They are equally white and black, that they are considered black and not white is dumb, they are clearly multienthnic. Tiger is twice as much asian as black. Maybe, not being born in America, it just seems obvious to me that if he is anything besides multiethnic, than he is asian not black. Heck, since Native Americans came from asia as well he may be 3 times more asian than african. It is just reality.
What a lame argument. Because they are just reality we should just shut up and take it? There are a lot of things that are just reality that ought to be fought against. I for one will continue to speak up. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 99% of people think he is black, because the media keeps saying so. You dont think that if every magazine article, newspaper report, and tv discussion called him asian instead of black 99% of people would still think he is mainly black? As for who cares whether the media does or does not add to the racism in this country, I care. I guess you dont. I don’t think that the media is superficial. It is just reality that 99% of America thinks Tiger is black. Fuzzy Zoeller sure did. He did not make a joke about Tiger wanting any Thai food or American Indian food for his champion’s dinner. But, as I said, who cares. Well, "man of color" is kind of a vague term. Basically it means your not Caucasian. And I agree that making a point of mentioning it is (while politically correct, because after all we are celebrating minorities, yeah right) actually exclusionary. Basically it reminds us that he is "different". Unfortunately the media does this all the time. I mean how many times do we have to see every little thing broken down by race. Why not by hair color or length of fingernails? Every time you see a breakdown by race, they are clearly reinforcing the belief that you should not look upon all people as equal. On a side note, Tiger Woods is 25% Native American, 25% African, and 50% Asian. Yet he is constantly refered to as an African American. Why? Because the media is superficial and only looks at skin color. I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to. — Jaster Before you buy. — Jaster Before you buy.
– Jaster Before you buy.
I do care Jaster, more than you would ever know, I live it everyday buddy.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Obviously not you, Keith Barkley. Two words, "who cares" Well, "man of color" is kind of a vague term. Basically it means your not Caucasian. And I agree that making a point of mentioning it is (while politically correct, because after all we are celebrating minorities, yeah right) actually exclusionary. Basically it reminds us that he is "different". Unfortunately the media does this all the time. I mean how many times do we have to see every little thing broken down by race. Why not by hair color or length of fingernails? Every time you see a breakdown by race, they are clearly reinforcing the belief that you should not look upon all people as equal. On a side note, Tiger Woods is 25% Native American, 25% African, and 50% Asian. Yet he is constantly refered to as an African American. Why? Because the media is superficial and only looks at skin color. I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to. — Jaster Before you buy. — Jaster Before you buy.
You were not aware of what I was and I realize that. I just wanted you to watch your pithy little comments that I obviously don’t care, you should just be careful, this is not a monolithic RSG.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Jaster, guess what I do care and guess what, I am Black, 100%. Wake up, Why dont you wake up. I certainly never said you werent black. The only Barkley I know is Charles Barkley and he is black. So what the hell is your beef? buddy, most Black people in this country can make the same argument that Tiger can about his heritage. That is a lingering vestige of slavery. Don’t pick a fight with me on race buddy, because what I am saying is that I don’t care if Vijay considers himself Black, or Fijian or Indian, he won the friggin most prestigious tournament of the year, and we digress on what color he is. I repeat I don’t care about what Tiger checks himself off as on his Census form. Try reading the discussion. No one has said one word about what Tiger or Vijay consider themselves. We are talking about what other people consider them and why and if it is right. And you are delusional if you think that the media brainwashes people into thinking that Tiger is Black. The media decides what we do or do not know about public figures. To inform us is their job. That they continually get this information wrong is a crime. It is based on his features. How many people would consider Derek Jeter, Halle Berry (yeah baby) or Rod Woodson white, they are half black half white, but by and large everyone considers them Black. They are equally white and black, that they are considered black and not white is dumb, they are clearly multienthnic. Tiger is twice as much asian as black. Maybe, not being born in America, it just seems obvious to me that if he is anything besides multiethnic, than he is asian not black. Heck, since Native Americans came from asia as well he may be 3 times more asian than african. It is just reality. What a lame argument. Because they are just reality we should just shut up and take it? There are a lot of things that are just reality that ought to be fought against. I for one will continue to speak up. 99% of people think he is black, because the media keeps saying so. You dont think that if every magazine article, newspaper report, and tv discussion called him asian instead of black 99% of people would still think he is mainly black? As for who cares whether the media does or does not add to the racism in this country, I care. I guess you dont. I don’t think that the media is superficial. It is just reality that 99% of America thinks Tiger is black. Fuzzy Zoeller sure did. He did not make a joke about Tiger wanting any Thai food or American Indian food for his champion’s dinner. But, as I said, who cares. Well, "man of color" is kind of a vague term. Basically it means your not Caucasian. And I agree that making a point of mentioning it is (while politically correct, because after all we are celebrating minorities, yeah right) actually exclusionary. Basically it reminds us that he is "different". Unfortunately the media does this all the time. I mean how many times do we have to see every little thing broken down by race. Why not by hair color or length of fingernails? Every time you see a breakdown by race, they are clearly reinforcing the belief that you should not look upon all people as equal. On a side note, Tiger Woods is 25% Native American, 25% African, and 50% Asian. Yet he is constantly refered to as an African American. Why? Because the media is superficial and only looks at skin color. I’ve seen a lot of posts here and articles written in various newspapers about Vijay Singh being "a man of color". Sorry folks, but it just isn’t the case. Vijay may be from Fiji, but his ancestry is Indian, as evidenced by his name. He is simply a darkly complexioned man of of Indian ancestry, not a "man of color", as if being a man of color makes a difference at all in the first place. Let’s celebrate his win as a golfer, and not try to attach some kind of significance to what racial group he may or may not belong to. — Jaster Before you buy. — Jaster Before you buy. — Jaster Before you buy.
I don’t think anyone gets offended. People laugh at Americans when it comes to their isolationism. Let’s face it, it is pretty funny to see an American team win an American competition and then declare themselves as ‘world champions’. Provide an example.
‘The New York Yankees are the World Champions’ as stated by whatever TV station covered this year’s World Series. Not ‘World Series Champions’ or ‘World Series Winners’ you’ll note. A subtle but significant distinction. Then tell me which worldwide sports Australia excels at (i.e. sports played at a high level outside former British colonies).
Is a sport less of a world sport because the best teams are ex British colonies? Britain had a pretty big empire at one point you know.
Distribution: So what’s your point? That sports played in the US are major world sports but sports played in the ex-British colonies are not?
The point is that you should stop complaining about the Americans when everyone does it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : You have a point, but it’s a *very* small one. : The obvious example would be the ‘World Series’ in baseball. No explicit : claim to be ‘World Champs’ but calling it the ‘World Series’, well… how : much of ‘The World’ takes part? : : Australia excel in : : : I was talking mainly about team sports, but note that the U.S. excels in : all those individual sports you mentioned. : swimming : rugby union (the World Cup finals currently in play includes : France(finalists),Argentina,Spain,Italy,Japan..) : Right. And except for France, all the other non-British colony teams were : just there to make up the numbers. Certainly no bigger than the (ice) : hockey championships. Argentina also made the quater finals. : rugby league : See above. : At least you didn’t try to squueze netball in there. : golf (in case you hadn’t noticed) : tennis : and probably many more that I can’t think of right now. : : cheers : : Glenn Baron (a pom)
"You can call me anything, but call me early for dinner" -George Foreman "If I went to a barbecue and there was no meat, I’d say ‘Hey! Goober! Where’s the meat?’" -Homer Simpson
I don’t think anyone gets offended. People laugh at Americans when it comes to their isolationism. Let’s face it, it is pretty funny to see an American team win an American competition and then declare themselves as ‘world champions’. Provide an example.
Baseball. Yankees are the baseball world champions, if I am not wrong. Manuel
Distribution: So what’s your point? That sports played in the US are major world sports but sports played in the ex-British colonies are not?
: You have a point, but it’s a *very* small one. : The obvious example would be the ‘World Series’ in baseball. No explicit : claim to be ‘World Champs’ but calling it the ‘World Series’, well… how : much of ‘The World’ takes part? : : Australia excel in : : : I was talking mainly about team sports, but note that the U.S. excels in : all those individual sports you mentioned. : swimming : rugby union (the World Cup finals currently in play includes : France(finalists),Argentina,Spain,Italy,Japan..) : Right. And except for France, all the other non-British colony teams were : just there to make up the numbers. Certainly no bigger than the (ice) : hockey championships. Argentina also made the quater finals. : rugby league : See above. : At least you didn’t try to squueze netball in there. : golf (in case you hadn’t noticed) : tennis : and probably many more that I can’t think of right now. : : cheers : : Glenn Baron (a pom)
I don’t think anyone gets offended. People laugh at Americans when it comes to their isolationism. Let’s face it, it is pretty funny to see an American team win an American competition and then declare themselves as ‘world champions’. Provide an example. Baseball. Yankees are the baseball world champions, if I am not wrong.
Of course not. Go to the official MLB website and the official Yankees site. You’ll see reference to "World Series champs" and "25 World series titles", but I don’t see any official declaration of the Yankees as "World Champions". Manuel
"You can call me anything, but call me early for dinner" -George Foreman "If I went to a barbecue and there was no meat, I’d say ‘Hey! Goober! Where’s the meat?’" -Homer Simpson
You have a point, but it’s a *very* small one. The obvious example would be the ‘World Series’ in baseball. No explicit claim to be ‘World Champs’ but calling it the ‘World Series’, well… how much of ‘The World’ takes part? Australia excel in :
I was talking mainly about team sports, but note that the U.S. excels in all those individual sports you mentioned. swimming rugby union (the World Cup finals currently in play includes France(finalists),Argentina,Spain,Italy,Japan..)
Right. And except for France, all the other non-British colony teams were just there to make up the numbers. Certainly no bigger than the (ice) hockey championships. rugby league
See above. At least you didn’t try to squueze netball in there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – golf (in case you hadn’t noticed) tennis and probably many more that I can’t think of right now. cheers Glenn Baron (a pom) Sports Illustrated is undoubtedly an American publication — their list implicitly is meant only to cover Amercian sports. Our friends oversees should not be offended I don’t think anyone gets offended. People laugh at Americans when it comes to their isolationism. Let’s face it, it is pretty funny to see an American team win an American competition and then declare themselves as ‘world champions’. Provide an example. Then tell me which worldwide sports Australia excels at (i.e. sports played at a high level outside former British colonies). …. no one at SI or elsewhere considers this a world list — even if Pele and some European women tennis players are thrown in. The technical term is ‘token outsiders’. – "You can call me anything, but call me early for dinner" -George Foreman "If I went to a barbecue and there was no meat, I’d say ‘Hey! Goober! Where’s the meat?’" -Homer Simpson
"You can call me anything, but call me early for dinner" -George Foreman "If I went to a barbecue and there was no meat, I’d say ‘Hey! Goober! Where’s the meat?’" -Homer Simpson
Other nations are free to join American professional leagues if they can field temas good enough to compete. My question is why dont other countries challenge Americans? There is money to be made from such challenges for both sides. America would readily accept. But I know the answer to the question. It is because other countries cant compete in the big three sports. skyking : This is a joke right? I would hope the organisers are not expecting it to have : any credibility. : America – the only country in the world which holds a world championship and : doesn’t bother to invite any other nations.
Other nations are free to join American professional leagues if they can field temas good enough to compete. My question is why dont other countries challenge Americans? There is money to be made from such challenges for both sides. America would readily accept. But I know the answer to the question. It is because other countries cant compete in the big three sports. Big three sports ? Sure in the US. Why can’t America compete in soccer, cycling and table tennis ?
Dewd – Does the name Lance Armstrong ring a bell? He kinda competed a little bit in the tour de france …
: Why can’t America compete in soccer, cycling and table tennis ? : Dewd – : Does the name Lance Armstrong ring a bell? He kinda competed a little bit in : the tour de france … Not to mention the U.S. women’s soccer team. — What goes around, comes back stronger – Skinny Puppy "Testure"
The NHL, NBA, and MLB all have Canadian teams which are at least as good as their U.S. counterparts. There was even a serious chance that the World Series would be between two Canadian teams a few years ago.
But those teams have almost no Canadian players, so does that really mean anything? http://www.obs.aau.dk/~holland/index.html
"You can call me anything, but call me early for dinner" -George Foreman "If I went to a barbecue and there was no meat, I’d say ‘Hey! Goober! Where’s the meat?’" -Homer Simpson
Sports Illustrated is undoubtedly an American publication — their list implicitly is meant only to cover Amercian sports. Our friends oversees should not be offended I don’t think anyone gets offended. People laugh at Americans when it comes to their isolationism. Let’s face it, it is pretty funny to see an American team win an American competition and then declare themselves as ‘world champions’.
Provide an example. Then tell me which worldwide sports Australia excels at (i.e. sports played at a high level outside former British colonies). …. no one at SI or elsewhere considers this a world list — even if Pele and some European women tennis players are thrown in. The technical term is ‘token outsiders’.
"You can call me anything, but call me early for dinner" -George Foreman "If I went to a barbecue and there was no meat, I’d say ‘Hey! Goober! Where’s the meat?’" -Homer Simpson
Soccer – US Wins Women’s World Cup, US Men beat Mexico for first time. Cycling – Lance Armstrong wins Tour de France, Greg Lemond wins TdF 3 times. Table Tennis – This is joke, right? Big three sports ? Sure in the US. Why can’t America compete in soccer, cycling and table tennis ?
– Dan Driscoll RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Current USGA/NCGA handicap index 15.7
You have a point, but it’s a *very* small one. The obvious example would be the ‘World Series’ in baseball. No explicit claim to be ‘World Champs’ but calling it the ‘World Series’, well… how much of ‘The World’ takes part? Australia excel in : swimming rugby union (the World Cup finals currently in play includes France(finalists),Argentina,Spain,Italy,Japan..) rugby league golf (in case you hadn’t noticed) tennis and probably many more that I can’t think of right now. cheers Glenn Baron (a pom) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sports Illustrated is undoubtedly an American publication — their list implicitly is meant only to cover Amercian sports. Our friends oversees should not be offended I don’t think anyone gets offended. People laugh at Americans when it comes to their isolationism. Let’s face it, it is pretty funny to see an American team win an American competition and then declare themselves as ‘world champions’. Provide an example. Then tell me which worldwide sports Australia excels at (i.e. sports played at a high level outside former British colonies). …. no one at SI or elsewhere considers this a world list — even if Pele and some European women tennis players are thrown in. The technical term is ‘token outsiders’.
– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "You can call me anything, but call me early for dinner" -George Foreman "If I went to a barbecue and there was no meat, I’d say ‘Hey! Goober! Where’s the meat?’" -Homer Simpson
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sports Illustrated is undoubtedly an American publication — their list implicitly is meant only to cover Amercian sports. Our friends oversees should not be offended I don’t think anyone gets offended. People laugh at Americans when it comes to their isolationism. Let’s face it, it is pretty funny to see an American team win an American competition and then declare themselves as ‘world champions’. MWC = Mythical World Champions?
What should the NBA do? — Jefferson N. Glapski The N is for Nowledge http://home.ican.net/~jng #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### #### NOKIA: Connecting People http://www.nokia.com
Sports Illustrated is undoubtedly an American publication — their list implicitly is meant only to cover Amercian sports. Our friends oversees should not be offended
I don’t think anyone gets offended. People laugh at Americans when it comes to their isolationism. Let’s face it, it is pretty funny to see an American team win an American competition and then declare themselves as ‘world champions’. …. no one at SI or elsewhere considers this a world list — even if Pele and some European women tennis players are thrown in.
The technical term is ‘token outsiders’.
Sports Illustrated is undoubtedly an American publication — their list implicitly is meant only to cover Amercian sports. Our friends oversees should not be offended I don’t think anyone gets offended. People laugh at Americans when it comes to their isolationism. Let’s face it, it is pretty funny to see an American team win an American competition and then declare themselves as ‘world
champions’. MWC = Mythical World Champions? PMP
Not just Pele and some European women – there’re six Canadians, eh? All players of one sport and no marks for guessing which one. Rather an odd starting lineup since there is only one defenseman (Orr) and he was famous for his offensive play but certainly one with a hell of a lot of firepower -and Winnipeg’s own Terry Sawchuk in goal. I agree it is really a list of great athletes covered by SI. What’s wrong with that? Isn’t everybody’s local and national media doing the same thing? I also agree, however, that the American tendency to confuse the national with the global is extremely annoying. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sports Illustrated is undoubtedly an American publication — their list implicitly is meant only to cover Amercian sports. Our friends oversees should not be offended …. no one at SI or elsewhere considers this a world list — even if Pele and some European women tennis players are thrown in. I think I just realized what this list really is. The greatest athletes Sports Illustrated covered. Yeah …. - Don These are the nominees, announced today for the Sports Illustrated December 2 "20th Century Sports Awards". A Sportsman of the Century and the 10 Greatest Sports Moments of the Century will also be announced. In RSFC-speak, discuss, please… Baseball Henry Aaron Lou Gehrig Walter Johnson Willie Mays Babe Ruth Ted Williams Football Jim Brown Dick Butkus Otto Graham Red Grange Don Hutson Joe Montana Basketball Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Larry Bird Wilt Chamberlain Magic Johnson Michael Jordan Oscar Robertson Hockey Wayne Gretzky Gordie Howe Mario Lemieux Bobby Orr Maurice Richard Terry Sawchuk U.S. Olympians Bonnie Blair (the ONLY U.S. winter olympian to make the list – yes!) Jackie Joyner-Kersee Carl Lewis Al Oerter Jesse Owens Mark Spitz Individual Sports (Men) Muhammad Ali Rod Laver Joe Louis Jack Nicklaus Sugar Ray Robinson Pete Sampras Individual Sports (Women) Babe Didrikson-Zaharias Chris Evert Steffi Graf Nancy Lopez Martina Navratilova Mickey Wright "Athletes Who Changed the Game" Peggy Fleming Billie Jean King Arnold Palmer Pel
Well joseph I think you are right about making the top 10, but I don’t agree on the looking over ghis shoulder part. Don’t forget that Monty seem to perform better when he has to look over his shoulder 
Jonas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d be inclined to agree with you, unless Monty managed to make it a "me vs. you Americans" thing, in which case he would always be looking over his shoulder before making a stroke. -joseph
[...] Yes, he gets wound up by the hecklers; yes he doesn’t always think before he speaks; but if that is his worst crime then there are many other golfers both in Europe and the US who should also be in the dock with him.
I flat out don’t buy this. I *do* believe that Monty thinks before he speaks, and I believe that he deliberately shuns the US fans, press, and soil in favor of his native fans, press, and soil. Fine with me if he wants to draw a line in the sand (or the water, or whatever). As I’ve said before, it’ll be nothing but luck if he gets on a plane on Monday wearing a sweater in 55 degree weather and shows up here in the USA six time zones away in 95 degree weather for his second or third US tournament of the year and manages to win against a field of the best US, European, and international golfers. Monty can always hope that over time luck will be enough. But you know what I think? I think Monty’s done in the US, in his mind and probably for real. Luck notwithstanding. -joseph
Beleive what you will. Montgomerie has never won in the US, and doesn’t seem to be able to compete outside the euro tour. There is no reason to think he can outcompete players like Singh, Elkington, Woods, Duval, Els, Price, Sutton, and the other top golfers who play the US tour regularly. No way I can see him in the top 10. Of course, I am not very knowledgeable on the matter, just MHO; like it or not! Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David, please understand that mr Frostback is very unknowledged about the game of golf and so don’t expect him to believe anything good you say about Monty… Not even if EVERYONE on the 1999 RyderCup team would say that he most definitely would make the top 10 on the money list he would believe it….. And, I would actually think that at least 8 of the 12 would say Monty would make the top 10…. Jonas This is contrary to the opinion of a lot of very good American golfers and commentators – e.g. did you hear Butch Harmon on the subject over the weekend? And many posters in rsg have commented on how impressed they were with the way he played in the Ryder Cup. The general consensus appears to be that he is one of the top three best players in the world – or thereabouts. I don’t think many would agree with you that he’d be lucky to make the top 30 in the US Tour. He says he doesn’t want to play full-time in the US because he doesn’t want to uproot his family. Whether you agree with his decision or not, surely you can have no argument with his right to choose not to do so. Now, whether this means that he is fatally harming his chances of winning a major is another question or course. But don’t forget, he came close to winning two in the US. (This is where my memory start to fail – in one of them wasn’t he forced into a play-off, which he lost, by a chip in from off the green? Maybe not.) There surely has to be another reason for the malice shown (and I accept it’s by the cretins, not by the normal decent fan) than those that are usually given, which seem to boil down to little more than the occasional inability to be diplomatic. Yes, he gets wound up by the hecklers; yes he doesn’t always think before he speaks; but if that is his worst crime then there are many other golfers both in Europe and the US who should also be in the dock with him. I don’t mean this to be taken in any way provocatively, but do you think part of the reason that he is subjected to such venom is the fact that by refusing to play full-time some people think he is slighting the US Tour and by extension the US itself? Sort of "who does he think he is, doesn’t he know we’re the best, how DARE he not come over here if he’s that good" etc? Just a thought. David.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And I guess there is alot more in golf than the number of majors players have won, or would someone still consider Ian Baker-Finch to be the better player of David Duval, Colin Montgomerie, Phil Mickelson and Jesper Parnevik? Jonas Mark O’Meara has a stellar record on the PGA Tour. 16 victories and a number of international wins. A US Amateur. Fifth on the Career Money list. There’s no need to drag Ian Baker-Finch into the argument. It may well be that Mark has played his best golf, but 27 wins in Europe and one silly season win in the USA isn’t quite the same as 15 wins (one major) in the US, two wins (one major) in Europe, and one silly season win in Europe. Until Monty makes a good showing the the USA he is always going to seem a bit like Europe’s Jumbo Ozaki.
Because of something that goes on between his ears, I don’t think Monty will win a major, in Britain or in the US. I can’t quite put my finger on it but I think it has something to do with self-consciousness when he knows that the focus of the crowd and the TV cameras is squarely on him at the critical moments. He does have a speech impediment of course and I suspect that underneath that sometimes arrogant exterior lurks an extremely shy person who does not cope well with the cauldron when he steps into it. He is a very complicated man and, yes, his words and attitude frequently make me wring my hands in despair – but I suspect that, for the most part, he is not aware of the perceived effect of his words. In any event, he is fatally flawed in some respect which makes him ill-equipped to win a major. However, you might want to rephrase your last sentence. Monty has made several good showings in the USA. Stan — Stan The Man +++Naked Under This Macintosh+++ If replying, DELETE X
Beleive what you will. Montgomerie has never won in the US, and doesn’t
Well, he had the lowest individual score of all team members when the world two man championships were held in was it 1997? And there he beat many of the players below. seem to be able to compete outside the euro tour. There is no reason to think he can outcompete players like Singh, Elkington, Woods, Duval, Els, Price, Sutton, and the other top golfers who play the US tour regularly. No way I can see him in the top 10. Of course, I am not very knowledgeable on the matter, just MHO; like it or not!
Ok, just to give you an idea on how he has performed in some of the big torunaments this year, why don’t we take a look at this years major results? Monty: 11, 15, 15, 6 Singh: 24, 3, MC, 49 Elkington:11, 51, MC, N/A Woods:18, 3, 7, 1 Duval: 6, 7, 62, 10 Els: 27, MC, 24, ? Price: 6, 23, 37, 5 Sutton: MC, 7, 10, 26 As you probably can see, Monty is incredibly consistent. I am not saying he would win the money-list, altho that could for sure happpen, but top 10. Most definitely. And you are about the only one that don’t agree on that Rob. But as you say, you have your right to your opinion, even tho in this case it is not backed-up by anyone closely involved in this game… Jonas
Aha! It took me a while to verify this, but I also remembered O’Meara beating Montgomerie at last year’s Cisco World Match Play. 5 and 4 in a 36 hole match. -joseph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, comparably, Monty has a more stellar record than O’Meara on their respective tours. Yes, the quality on the US PGA tour is higher, but still, 27 wins in Europe beats 15 on teh US PGA in my opinion. As far as majors, O’Meara has the edge. So, based on history, O’Meara is the better performer, but the last year, he is not anywhere near Monty, and the Ryder Cup was one good example of that. Jonas
I agree, but there is no doubt in anyones mind that he would easily make the top 10 on the money list is there? And I could almost ensure you that he would win during his first year out.
I’d be inclined to agree with you, unless Monty managed to make it a "me vs. you Americans" thing, in which case he would always be looking over his shoulder before making a stroke. -joseph
And I guess there is alot more in golf than the number of majors players have won, or would someone still consider Ian Baker-Finch to be the better player of David Duval, Colin Montgomerie, Phil Mickelson and Jesper Parnevik? Jonas
Mark O’Meara has a stellar record on the PGA Tour. 16 victories and a number of international wins. A US Amateur. Fifth on the Career Money list. There’s no need to drag Ian Baker-Finch into the argument. It may well be that Mark has played his best golf, but 27 wins in Europe and one silly season win in the USA isn’t quite the same as 15 wins (one major) in the US, two wins (one major) in Europe, and one silly season win in Europe. Until Monty makes a good showing the the USA he is always going to seem a bit like Europe’s Jumbo Ozaki. -joseph
Mark O’Meara has a stellar record on the PGA Tour. 16 victories and a number of international wins. A US Amateur. Fifth on the Career Money list. There’s no need to drag Ian Baker-Finch into the argument. It may well be that Mark has played his best golf, but 27 wins in Europe and one silly season win in the USA isn’t quite the same as 15 wins (one major) in the US, two wins (one major) in Europe, and one silly season win in Europe. Until Monty makes a good showing the the USA he is always going to seem a bit like Europe’s Jumbo Ozaki.
Well, comparably, Monty has a more stellar record than O’Meara on their respective tours. Yes, the quality on the US PGA tour is higher, but still, 27 wins in Europe beats 15 on teh US PGA in my opinion. As far as majors, O’Meara has the edge. So, based on history, O’Meara is the better performer, but the last year, he is not anywhere near Monty, and the Ryder Cup was one good example of that. Jonas
You obviously have NO idea what you are talking about so I won’t even discuss this any further with you. Good night. Jonas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He’s never been close in the past; no reason to beleive he could get there now. If he played the US Tour full time (which he won’t), he MIGHT make the top 30. Rob ?? Do I interpret it correctly when you think he would not get onto the top 10 on the money-list? I am Swedish, sometimes this language confuses me… Jonas
David, please understand that mr Frostback is very unknowledged about the game of golf and so don’t expect him to believe anything good you say about Monty… Not even if EVERYONE on the 1999 RyderCup team would say that he most definitely would make the top 10 on the money list he would believe it….. And, I would actually think that at least 8 of the 12 would say Monty would make the top 10…. Jonas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is contrary to the opinion of a lot of very good American golfers and commentators – e.g. did you hear Butch Harmon on the subject over the weekend? And many posters in rsg have commented on how impressed they were with the way he played in the Ryder Cup. The general consensus appears to be that he is one of the top three best players in the world – or thereabouts. I don’t think many would agree with you that he’d be lucky to make the top 30 in the US Tour. He says he doesn’t want to play full-time in the US because he doesn’t want to uproot his family. Whether you agree with his decision or not, surely you can have no argument with his right to choose not to do so. Now, whether this means that he is fatally harming his chances of winning a major is another question or course. But don’t forget, he came close to winning two in the US. (This is where my memory start to fail – in one of them wasn’t he forced into a play-off, which he lost, by a chip in from off the green? Maybe not.) There surely has to be another reason for the malice shown (and I accept it’s by the cretins, not by the normal decent fan) than those that are usually given, which seem to boil down to little more than the occasional inability to be diplomatic. Yes, he gets wound up by the hecklers; yes he doesn’t always think before he speaks; but if that is his worst crime then there are many other golfers both in Europe and the US who should also be in the dock with him. I don’t mean this to be taken in any way provocatively, but do you think part of the reason that he is subjected to such venom is the fact that by refusing to play full-time some people think he is slighting the US Tour and by extension the US itself? Sort of "who does he think he is, doesn’t he know we’re the best, how DARE he not come over here if he’s that good" etc? Just a thought. David.
The talent level on the European Tour can not compare the the US Tour. Let Monty play here full time and see if he dominates over here like he does there. I DONT THINK SO!!!!
And I guess there is alot more in golf than the number of majors players have won, or would someone still consider Ian Baker-Finch to be the better player of David Duval, Colin Montgomerie, Phil Mickelson and Jesper Parnevik? Jonas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You trying to tell me you think O’Meara is a better player than Montgomerie? HAHAHA Only if you’re talking about major wins. -joseph
I agree, but there is no doubt in anyones mind that he would easily make the top 10 on the money list is there? And I could almost ensure you that he would win during his first year out. Jonas….give Colin a break, he plays no more than 6-10 events every year on the PGA tour (includes the 3 majors in the US)
The talent level on the European Tour can not compare the the US Tour. Let Monty play here full time and see if he dominates over here like he does there. I DONT THINK SO!!!!
No doubt he would not make the top ten, but probably still make a lot more than #1 in europe. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree, but there is no doubt in anyones mind that he would easily make the top 10 on the money list is there? And I could almost ensure you that he would win during his first year out. Jonas….give Colin a break, he plays no more than 6-10 events every year on the PGA tour (includes the 3 majors in the US) The talent level on the European Tour can not compare the the US Tour. Let Monty play here full time and see if he dominates over here like he does there. I DONT THINK SO!!!!
?? Do I interpret it correctly when you think he would not get onto the top 10 on the money-list? I am Swedish, sometimes this language confuses me… Jonas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No doubt he would not make the top ten, but probably still make a lot more than #1 in europe. Rob I agree, but there is no doubt in anyones mind that he would easily make the top 10 on the money list is there? And I could almost ensure you that he would win during his first year out. Jonas….give Colin a break, he plays no more than 6-10 events every year on the PGA tour (includes the 3 majors in the US) The talent level on the European Tour can not compare the the US Tour. Let Monty play here full time and see if he dominates over here like he does there. I DONT THINK SO!!!!
He’s never been close in the past; no reason to beleive he could get there now. If he played the US Tour full time (which he won’t), he MIGHT make the top 30. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ?? Do I interpret it correctly when you think he would not get onto the top 10 on the money-list? I am Swedish, sometimes this language confuses me… Jonas No doubt he would not make the top ten, but probably still make a lot more than #1 in europe. Rob I agree, but there is no doubt in anyones mind that he would easily make the top 10 on the money list is there? And I could almost ensure you that he would win during his first year out. Jonas….give Colin a break, he plays no more than 6-10 events every year on the PGA tour (includes the 3 majors in the US) The talent level on the European Tour can not compare the the US Tour. Let Monty play here full time and see if he dominates over here like he does there. I DONT THINK SO!!!!
In a lot of respects. O’Meara has played and won in Europe. Monty has played a lot more in the US and not won. Both have won consistently over their careers, but O’Meara on the US Tour, Monty on the Euro Tour. And, of course, the majors. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You trying to tell me you think O’Meara is a better player than Montgomerie? HAHAHA Only if you’re talking about major wins. -joseph
Eric, are you serious or just riding the winners’s wave? Jonas No let’s bring this up NOW!!!… O’Meara has the Cup and Monty has his pitiful skyward fist pounding self to live with…. Monty is the best thing to come along to American galleries since Dan Qyual to American politics…
Jonas… Serious… if monty enjoys jarring with the crowd, so be it, let’s have fun with it… after all it is monty’s comments about american PROFESSIONALS at Valderrama and since that get’s those galleries worked up… looks like monty’s having fun…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In a lot of respects. O’Meara has played and won in Europe. Monty has played a lot more in the US and not won. Both have won consistently over their careers, but O’Meara on the US Tour, Monty on the Euro Tour. And, of course, the majors. You trying to tell me you think O’Meara is a better player than Montgomerie? HAHAHA Only if you’re talking about major wins.
O’Meara is at the end of his career and has said that he will be winding his tournament schedule way down. It remains to be seen whether he will try for another Ryder Cup team, but my guess is that he will not. I also think he will wind up in the CBS broadcast booth within 2 years. O’Meara has had a pretty good run and got it together several times when he really needed it. His two wins over Tiger were pretty special, nevermind his golf at last year’s majors. Obviously Monty is the better player now, but O’Meara has accomplished things that perhaps Monty never will. -joseph
Ok, your entiteled to this opinion, but I tell you this, ALL the expertise is agreed on that Monty is for sure no worse than #3 in the world, and even the US expertise agree he is prolly right up there with Tiger. It would be nice if Faldo could talk Monty into playin in the US, but he’s tried and Monty seems to stay in Europe. Considering the bashing he gets in the US I understand why. Even Johnny Miller (who is wrong about most things besides this..) agrees that Monty is one the the three best. Jonas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No doubt in my mind. Let’s bring this up again at a time when Montgomerie is playing badly and O’Meara is playing well! Rob You trying to tell me you think O’Meara is a better player than Montgomerie? HAHAHA Jonas…funny asses The 12 best golfers in the world showed their stuff. The script is now set for the Ryder Cup, the Euros go after the team points and the US goes after the individual one-on-one points. Rob
Eric, are you serious or just riding the winners’s wave? Jonas No let’s bring this up NOW!!!… O’Meara has the Cup and Monty has his pitiful skyward fist pounding self to
live with…. Monty is the best thing to come along to American galleries since Dan Qyual to
American politics… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
No let’s bring this up NOW!!!… O’Meara has the Cup and Monty has his pitiful skyward fist pounding self to live with…. Monty is the best thing to come along to American galleries since Dan Qyual to American politics…
You trying to tell me you think O’Meara is a better player than Montgomerie? HAHAHA
Only if you’re talking about major wins. -joseph
Gang, This was sent to me as an e-mail. Any thoughts? -ss Sports of The Times: Up Close, Golfers Are Amazing By GEORGE VECSEY
I have been battling a pull for some time now, so last night I sat down and tried to work out logically what I am doing wrong and how to correct it. I came up with the following ideas. I know that some of them will seem wrong to the low handicap golfers out there; thats fine. In fact it’s what I want. Please send some feedback on where my theory falls down, and some ideas on what I can do to correct my problem. I would prefer only constructive criticism; I am a 24 handicapper, and do not have a "natural" swing. So here goes… At address, my arms hang roughly straight down, and hold the club at, say, about 120 degrees ( my angles will probably be way out for the engineers out there – sorry, but hopefully you get the idea). Now I swing the club back. Hopefully my backswing is perfect. Now, heres the hard bit. As I swing down, centrifugal force causes the angle between my hands and the club to move to close to 180 degrees (i.e. my arms and the club in as straight a line as my wrists will allow them to be). By the way, all this is looking from a side on view. Now, I have always believed that you should not move your head back (towards your heels) or forward (more over your toes). Further, I have been told in books and by others, that my spine should stay on the same angle throughout the swing. I have even been told to practice keeping my bottom against something as I swing. Now, if at impact my bottom and head are in the same positions they were at address, and my spine is at the same angle as it was at address (which it must be if my bottom and head haven’t moved), and the angle between my arms and the clubshaft has straightened, the clubhead is now on the other side of the ball, instead of hitting the back of it. From here I can only do one of three things. Shank, slice or pull. I pull. Therefore, during the swing, either the spine straightens slightly or the head must move back slightly. As I said before, I know there must be a flaw in this logic, and for some people it will be REALLY obvious. The problem is, for me it isn’t. I would really appreciate some feedback on this. Thanks. John Maher To reply, remove the "s" from the end of my address.
Take a shorter backswing. I’ll bet your hips are turned long before your club gets to the ball.
Now, I have always believed that you should not move your head back (towards your heels) or forward (more over your toes).
.. Therefore, during the swing, either the spine straightens slightly or the head must move back slightly. As I said before, I know there must be a flaw in this logic, and for some people it will be REALLY obvious.
The flaw in the logic, John, is that those folks who have insisted over the years that the head doesn’t move to the right (for a right-handed golfer) in the backswing are wrong.. Golf instructor Jim McLean says he has studied slow-motion film of literally thousands of professional and top golfers and virtually every one of them moves his head back somewhat in the backswing. He offers this quote from Harvey Penick: "Show me a player who doesn’t move his head, and I’ll show you someone who can’t play." The key is not in not moving your head, but making sure you keep your eye fixed on the ball as your head rotates and moves to the right.
I don’t think you HAVE to set up with the 120 deg angle that you described. I’ve looked at mine and it seems to be in the 150 deg range. I seem to be able to maintain it, but I have a great deal of forearm strength (too much hard labor). I would consult a pro. B Terry
1: If you want to play Golf- dont take Mulligans. 2: If you want to play Golf- play your own game. In a Tournament you will play with a wide variety of players, some you won’t like. 3: he’s your friend- give him a break. rudedawg
group of ‘real’ players….you’ll be treated like you have head – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today I was playing a good round, about 7 over after 14 holes. On the fifteenth tee one of my playing partners teed it up and hit. He didn’t hit it well, slicing it a bit and popping it up. It came down in the fairway about 150 yards out. I stepped up, teed up my ball, and took a couple practice swings. As I was preparing to address the ball my partner started taking some practice swings and I heard him mutter something about hitting this one out better. I turned around and he was addressing another ball, preparing to hit. In disgust, I stepped back from my ball and muttered "Hit it in the damn fairway, and you’re still taking a mulligan" (he takes a lot of mulligans, I think he probably took 10 today to my one). He asked me to repeat, and I said "Hit the damn ball". So he did. I was really ticked off that not only he wanted a mulligan on a perfectly decent drive but that he started to hit AS I WAS GETTING READY TO HIT. I proceeded to double bogey the hole on the way to shooting 3 over on the last 4 holes, killing my chance at breaking 80 (my goal for every round). Was I wrong to be upset here? He seemed to think so. — Chris Fairchild Resident Director & Conservatory Faculty Shenandoah University Video gamer Golfer Sports Card Collector Orioles in 98!!!! You may not have been wrong for getting upset, but you were wrong for allowing his behavior to ruin your round. If you allow someone else to dictate your golf, it is your fault. You should have (probably): stepped back let him hit regain your composure collect your thoughts finish out a great round. Live and learn; next time you’ll know better. I know because I’ve been through that before. Good luck, Chris Of course you are right that I should have been able to keep my cool. I’m pretty serious about my game and the multiple mulligans were getting to me. Then for him tp top it off by teeing up and getting ready to hit while I was addressing the ball was too much for me to handle I guess. So I had a bad hole – hit my drive way off the fairway, shanked my second shot, pulled my third so I missed the green and it rolled down a small hill just into the trees, knocked it on and two putted. What surprised me was how well I was able to come back. On par-5 #16 I nailed a perfect drive that just barely caught an overhanging tree and only went 120 yards or so (should have been 275-300). But then I hit my driver off the turf to about 130 yards from the green (that’s about 220 yards), knocked it on and two putted for an impressive par. Then I bogeyed the next hole (bad tee shot) but got a par on the last hole, the #1 handicap hole, a 400-yard par-4. So I guess I regained my composure okay, although I sure would have liked to make my usual par or bogey on #15 and break 80. Anyway, me and my friend talked it out and even went and practiced together yesterday. He’s going to try and be more sensitive when he’s taking a mulligan (I don’t object to the occasional mulligan but the frequency is probably what was getting to me) and I’m going to try and keep my head on. We’ll play together again I’m sure. Chris — Chris Fairchild Resident Director & Conservatory Faculty Shenandoah University Video gamer Golfer Sports Card Collector Orioles in 98!!!!
I agree, the shark can get rattled, but he does play great golf. JH
One way to keep guys from hitting mulligans is to IMMEDIATELY start walking down the fairway as soon as the last person tees off. They may ask you to wait once or twice, but if you do it on every tee they WILL get the point.
Another way is state at the start of the round that no Mulligans can be used. KS in NS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One way to keep guys from hitting mulligans is to IMMEDIATELY start walking down the fairway as soon as the last person tees off. They may ask you to wait once or twice, but if you do it on every tee they WILL get the point.
I think you guys are making a mistake. I would rather wait the 10 seconds it takes someone to hit another ball and possibly get it on the fairway than the minutes it takes to try to find the first bad shot. Whats the big deal. You never hit a poor shot. Pleeeeaaase. "Waitress, I need two more boat drinks" Hot Sauce, Cold Beer, Golf, DJing, Jimmy Buffett and All That……what a life ; ) http://www.pcompute.com/ra/redriver.htm NO MILD!! Bobby A (BMW R1100RSL)
I think you got mulligans and provisionals mixed up. I see no problem someone hitting a provisional. What gets me is that some players would hit into woods that has red stakes, (meaning that they can play the ball where it last enter the woods/hazard with a stroke penalty). They just use the mulligan to get around losing a stroke or two depending on how many mulligans they take. KS in NS
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I think you guys are making a mistake. I would rather wait the 10 seconds it takes someone to hit another ball and possibly get it on the fairway than the minutes it takes to try to find the first bad shot. Whats the big deal. You never hit a poor shot. Pleeeeaaase. "Waitress, I need two more boat drinks" Hot Sauce, Cold Beer, Golf, DJing, Jimmy Buffett and All That……what a life ; ) http://www.pcompute.com/ra/redriver.htm NO MILD!! Bobby A (BMW R1100RSL)
I think you guys are making a mistake. I would rather wait the 10 seconds it takes someone to hit another ball and possibly get it on the fairway than the minutes it takes to try to find the first bad shot. Whats the big deal. You never hit a poor shot. Pleeeeaaase.
What do you call this game that you play? Is it baseball? That’s one sport I know of where you don’t have to play your foul balls. — Barry Smith
I watched the Houston tournament this week and was curious as to the different levels of importance to each PGA tournament. Obviously the majors are at the top level. Then would the TPC, Firestone, Memorial(?) rank on the second level? Then would the other tournaments make up a third level? Or is there even a 4th level of tournaments (Memphis, Hawaii)? Where would the international tournaments fit in the rankings such as the Australian, Canadian, and some of the European and Asian tournaments?
What criteria would you use, rather than just a guess? Number of top 50 players competing, prizemoney, tradition, winning score, course rating etc.? Colin Wilson Publishing Innovations Springhill, Victoria, Australia "We were given two ears and one mouth. We should use them in that proportion."
: : I watched the Houston tournament this week and was curious as to the : different levels of importance to each PGA tournament. Obviously the : majors are at the top level. Then would the TPC, Firestone, Memorial(?) : rank on the second level? Then would the other tournaments make up a : third level? Or is there even a 4th level of tournaments (Memphis, Hawaii)? : Where would the international tournaments fit in the rankings such as the : Australian, Canadian, and some of the European and Asian tournaments? : What criteria would you use, rather than just a guess? Number of top 50 : players competing, prizemoney, tradition, winning score, course rating : etc.? : Colin Wilson : Publishing Innovations : Springhill, Victoria, Australia : "We were given two ears and one mouth. We should use them in that : proportion." I meant from the top players competing in any given tournament. It seemed to me that there are tournaments that don’t regularly draw the big name players in any great amount. I could see pros competing in some of these tournaments that need a win to get them invited to the Masters, besides the chance to make some extra money. But it does seem that after the majors there are some tournaments (TPC, Firestone, Memorial etc.) that always seem to draw most of the best players in the world while others just seem to be stops on the tour. Again, I could see exemptions and money as being a motivation for the second level tournaments. But how many levels are there below these two? James Jackson
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : I watched the Houston tournament this week and was curious as to the : different levels of importance to each PGA tournament. Obviously the : majors are at the top level. Then would the TPC, Firestone, Memorial(?) : rank on the second level? Then would the other tournaments make up a : third level? Or is there even a 4th level of tournaments (Memphis, Hawaii)? : Where would the international tournaments fit in the rankings such as the : Australian, Canadian, and some of the European and Asian tournaments? : What criteria would you use, rather than just a guess? Number of top 50 : players competing, prizemoney, tradition, winning score, course rating : etc.? : Colin Wilson : Publishing Innovations : Springhill, Victoria, Australia : "We were given two ears and one mouth. We should use them in that : proportion." I meant from the top players competing in any given tournament. It seemed to me that there are tournaments that don’t regularly draw the big name players in any great amount. I could see pros competing in some of these tournaments that need a win to get them invited to the Masters, besides the chance to make some extra money. But it does seem that after the majors there are some tournaments (TPC, Firestone, Memorial etc.) that always seem to draw most of the best players in the world while others just seem to be stops on the tour. Again, I could see exemptions and money as being a motivation for the second level tournaments. But how many levels are there below these two? James Jackson
There is no question that big purses draw top golfers. The Majors in addition to the tournaments’ history and prestige also have big purses. There are other factors that determine whether top golfers show up for an event. A lot of players plan their schedules around the majors, so they will play in the 3 or 4 events leading up to a Masters, or US Open. Some players skip the West Coast portion of the tour to play overseas ( Greg Norman for example). Some skip the ATT and Hope because they don’t like the Pro-Am format. I think the tournaments scheduled in the fall are the ones that might be considered *sub second level*. These tournaments, such as the New England Classic ( played near me), the BC Open, the Greater Milwaukee Open, all seem to labor in relative obscurity, with no broadcast TV coverage, and few top 50 money winners in their fields. By the time Labor Day arrives, the top golfers are gearing for the Ryder Cup ( or Presidents Cup, I suppose), and the Tour Championship. That leaves the *journeymen* to scramble to make the top 125 and keep their tour cards for next year. — Enjoy, Tut
James writes: I watched the Houston tournament this week and was curious as to the
different levels of importance to each PGA tournament. Obviously the majors are at the top level. Then would the TPC, Firestone, Memorial(?) rank on the second level? Then would the other tournaments make up a third level? Or is there even a 4th level of tournaments (Memphis, Hawaii)? Where would the international tournaments fit in the rankings such as the
Australian, Canadian, and some of the European and Asian tournaments? James, I don’t know, but am sure the Sony rankings systems faced and answered this question…. can we ask them? Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va *the trout teach many, lessons*
I watched the Houston tournament this week and was curious as to the different levels of importance to each PGA tournament. Obviously the majors are at the top level. Then would the TPC, Firestone, Memorial(?) rank on the second level? Then would the other tournaments make up a third level? Or is there even a 4th level of tournaments (Memphis, Hawaii)? Where would the international tournaments fit in the rankings such as the Australian, Canadian, and some of the European and Asian tournaments? James Jackson
My choices based on strength of field, course difficulty, rewards & pressure. IMHO Majors: 1) US Open 2) British Open *not a PGA event* 3) Masters 4) PGA Sub Majors: 5) TPC 6) Tour Championship Elites: 7) Mercedes Open 
Bay Hill Invitational 9) Memorial 10) Western Open 11) LA Open 12) Doral 13) World Series of Golf 14) Greater Hartford Open 15) Harbortown Rank and File: Everything else. — -PT (…not necessarily wise. ^_^ ) "A wise man and a fool cannot argue." -Confucius
I watched the Houston tournament this week and was curious as to the different levels of importance to each PGA tournament. Obviously the majors are at the top level. Then would the TPC, Firestone, Memorial(?) rank on the second level? Then would the other tournaments make up a third level? Or is there even a 4th level of tournaments (Memphis, Hawaii)? Where would the international tournaments fit in the rankings such as the Australian, Canadian, and some of the European and Asian tournaments? James Jackson
I watched the Houston tournament this week and was curious as to the different levels of importance to each PGA tournament. Obviously the majors are at the top level. Then would the TPC, Firestone, Memorial(?) rank on the second level? Then would the other tournaments make up a third level? Or is there even a 4th level of tournaments (Memphis, Hawaii)? Where would the international tournaments fit in the rankings such as the Australian, Canadian, and some of the European and Asian tournaments? James Jackson
Here’s my totally unofficial, subject to change at any time ranking: (and not including the Ryder Cup which would be Number 1A) 1. British Open 2. US Open 3. Masters 4. PGA 5. The Players 6. Volvo PGA Champ. 7. LA Open, Doral, Memorial, TOUR Champ., World Series, Volvo Masters, World Match Play 14. Scottish Open, B&H International (Europe), Tournament of Champions, Colonial, Bay Hill, Pebble Beach, Canadian Open 21. Most other PGA Tour tournaments played before september 22. Dunlop Phoenix (Japan), Austrailian Open, Million Dollar Challenge, Japan Open, South African Open 23. Other European PGA Tour events played after March 24. Other PGA Tour events played after September (except Tour champ.) and Deposit Guranty and Quad Cities 25. regular Japan and Austrailasian Tour events 26. regular South African, Nike and Asian Tour events 27. other International tours 28. the Hooters tour 29. the various minitours
I’ll say he wins one tournament. No majors though. People saying he will win seven tournaments are nuts! dan — * "If math were a drug, I’d sell it by the gram…" – Dan Frank *
In rec.sport.golf I’ll go against conventional wisdom and say he won’t win squat in 97. He’ll make plenty of money, get some close finishes, but no wins.
Didn’t take but one tournament to prove this wrong. He just won the Mercedes by knocking a 185 yard par 3 to around 10 inches after Lehman dumped his in the water. Bruce
Those who predicted zero are wrong. Those who predicted one are correct–for a couple of weeks anyway… One down and ??? to go…
Considering most of the top golfers weren’t active in the tournaments Tiger won at the end of last season, I would be surprised if he wins more than 2 tournaments this year – one mid-season, another one near the end. He’s the new kid on the block, and there’s a mental game in the pros that he still has to learn. But I would expect him to increase this year’s winnings!
Ironically, I think Tiger’s advantage is the mental game. Match play is a lot harder than medal on you mentally. He is young and not filled full of doubts. If he can control his optimism and turn his putting up a notch he will do wonderfully. Now how many will he win? I expect he will win back to back tournaments this year. I also believe he will play a limited schedule after some early success. My guess is 4 maybe 5, if he does do back to back.
Glad to see someone else besides me said 8… I might have gone a bit overboard. But if he could win 2 out of 8 events in the midst of all that was going on (turning pro, the endorsements, the media frenzy, his father’s illness, etc), I don’t think it’s inconceivable. I predict he will have one blistering period where he wins three titles within five or six weeks. Add a couple here, a couple there and maybe he can do it. But I’ll be the first to admit that I lack the historical perspective. Who would make the Top Ten List for most titles in a year?
I’ll say this first, Tiger has already created a new atmosphere of semi panic among the touring pro’s. They fully realize, that in order to take away from Tiger’s winning ability, they must up their grade of performance drastically. The result, will be the most exciting year in golf since it’s beginning. I predict Tiger will win at least 8 tournaments and finish in the top ten 60% of the time. Jack Nicklaus was the best of the 20th century, Tiger will be the best ever of all time. –
I’m sure this coming year will be one of the big tests of young Mr. Woods ability. Having so very succesfully turned pro he will now have to rise to the challenge of ‘where does he go from here?’ Will playing week in week out keep him sufficiently interested for him to want to win? He already has the financial rewards most people strive for! Of course there are the majors. Thus I predict hw will only win 2 or 3 tournaments possibly including US Open.
As great as Tiger may become, I doubt that he can win more than one tournament in his first full year on Tour, where the total purse is greater than $2,000,000. D.E.
Without any lengthy discussions, hedging or specifying ranges, put forth your best guess as to how many tournaments Tiger will take in 1997.
I’ll guess 3 PGA tournaments and 2 others. No majors this year. — Software Kinetics Ltd.|Single father of 4.5-year-old Laura, still I Dartmouth, Nova Scotia|play golf, piano, bridge, read, run … Canada |Meet us: http://chbucto.ns.ca/~ae721/Profile.html
Without any lengthy discussions, hedging or specifying ranges, put forth your best guess as to how many tournaments Tiger will take in 1997. I’ll guess 3 PGA tournaments and 2 others. No majors this year. —
7 PGA titles including 2 majors. — http://www.patriot.net/users/geometric/thistle Geometric Technology Associates Alexandria, VA Providing GIS, Remote Sensing, and Internet Solutions Visit http://www.patriot.net/users/geometric to see the services offered by GTA
I’ll go against conventional wisdom and say he won’t win squat in 97. He’ll make plenty of money, get some close finishes, but no wins.
Tiger Woods will win at least four tournaments next year.
Considering most of the top golfers weren’t active in the tournaments Tiger won at the end of last season, I would be surprised if he wins more than 2 tournaments this year – one mid-season, another one near the end. He’s the new kid on the block, and there’s a mental game in the pros that he still has to learn. But I would expect him to increase this year’s winnings! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiger Woods will win at least four tournaments next year.
(Owen (tom) Craighead) writes: I’ll say this first, Tiger has already created a new atmosphere of semi panic among the touring pro’s.
How do you know this? They fully realize, that in order to take away from Tiger’s winning ability, they must up their grade of performance drastically.
How do you know this? The result, will be the most exciting year in golf since it’s beginning.
Oh, how America loves a little exaggeration. I predict Tiger will win at least 8 tournaments and finish in the top ten 60% of the time.
Bullshit. Jack Nicklaus was the best of the 20th century,
I couldn’t argue with that. Tiger will be the best ever of all time.
He might be, but you’re jumping the gun (AGAIN) Why don’t you relax and see what he does, enjoy what he does, instead of hyping him up the whole time? Or do you just enjoy that more than the golf? Regards, Jonty P.S. Where is Tiger Woods? Is it an inland course?
But he’ll (Tiger) win the PGA in his first attempt.
Good comments in general, but I think he may win a major, any one of the US majors. I feel he may need a few years to get used to our Open ( unless he commits to a few tournaments over here in advance of the Open!). One thing, I think, is far more certain – he will definitely win theUS order of merit ( and push Ernie Els closer to the top also) Dave Cullen
I beleive that he is going to win 6 with one being a major. At least the major I’ve got a bet down in Las Vegas so you know I’ll be following him.. Lee
I agree with Bob… I too believe it all depends on the schedule he chooses to play. If he plays a lot of the top events (Doral, Memorial, etc.) in addition to the majors, then I do not think he will win that much (if any). The more times he plays in tournaments that have fields which contain a lot of the top ranked players, the less his chances of winning are… Now I am not saying he cannot beat or even compete with these guys, but his odds of winning more than 1-2 events are much higher the less times he has to play against Faldo, Norman, Lehman, Couples, etc….. Robert Sileo Senior Programmer/Analyst Marywood College
I’ll say this first, Tiger has already created a new atmosphere of semi panic among the touring pro’s. They fully realize, that in order to take away from Tiger’s winning ability, they must up their grade of performance drastically. The result, will be the most exciting year in golf since it’s beginning. I predict Tiger will win at least 8 tournaments and finish in the top ten 60% of the time. Jack Nicklaus was the best of the 20th century, Tiger will be the best ever of all time. –
I’ll say 1. The kid has talent, but so do a lot of others. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without any lengthy discussions, hedging or specifying ranges, put forth your best guess as to how many tournaments Tiger will take in 1997. I’ll say 8.
Tiger will win three tournaments in 1997 … he is probably already the most talented player out there, but he is going to have to deal with perhaps the most intense media scrutiny that any golfer has ever faced. This will wear on him. He’ll have his moments, but his "sophomore" (or really first full) season is going to have some bumps. But his superior talent will be enough to clock some high finishes and win a couple of regular tour events. I think he’ll fall just short in his first attempts as a professional in the Masters, US Open and British Open. But he’ll win the PGA in his first attempt. Remember, the last six years Tiger has learned to gear his game to be in top form for some very important major events (US Junior Amateur and the Amateur) that occur in the late summer. As they say, timing is everything. Actually, I wouldn’t dare pick against him in the Masters, but I refuse to say that he will win there this early in his career. That would just be too much of a fairy tale, wouldn’t it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without any lengthy discussions, hedging or specifying ranges, put forth your best guess as to how many tournaments Tiger will take in 1997. I’ll say 8.
I’ll say 3, with an assortment of near-misses. I must say that I am very impressed with this youngster, who seems poised for an outstanding year. Jeff
Without any lengthy discussions, hedging or specifying ranges, put forth your best guess as to how many tournaments Tiger will take in 1997. I’ll say 8.
EIGHT????Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Probably depends on how many he wants to win. I would think it won’t be too long before he (like Nicklaus) concentrates most of his efforts on the majors. It will be interesting to see what kind of schedule he plays next year. Bob Dietrich
Four or five, one major. "You can’t have everything, where would you put it?" – Stephen Wright
I think 8 would be a miracle – no doubt earning him another SI Sportsman of the Year award. Did Jack ever win 8 in his prime? I’m a big Tiger fan, but I’ll vote for 4. I suspect that if he lives up to his potential, he will win 8 some year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without any lengthy discussions, hedging or specifying ranges, put forth your best guess as to how many tournaments Tiger will take in 1997. I’ll say 8.
Without any lengthy discussions, hedging or specifying ranges, put forth your best guess as to how many tournaments Tiger will take in 1997. I’ll say 8.