Question:
It would be neat if golf kept statistics as throroughly as baseball does, but they don’t. So we’re left to speculate. Just don’t try to "prove" speculation with anecdotes — it doesn’t work that way.
Nobody is trying to "prove" anything. The proof is in the putting.
Response:
It may surprise you but i have a theory about this too. I think Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods are too egocentric, which I think they must be to achieve what they have, to be sufficiently motivated by events such as the Ryder and Presidents Cups.
At the risk of getting flamed by purists, I don’t see why the top pros even bother with the Ryder Cup. To make this less emotional, let’s forget golf for a second and talk basketball. When the US didn’t win the gold medal for the first time since forever, they immediately changed the rules to let the pros compete. So we had our "dream team" of Jordan, Barkley, etc., and they naturally won. But if you saw them off the court, it was like a day at the beach for them. No awe or humility at being in the Olympics, just something cool to do once. Lots of them didn’t bother to try out for the team the next Olympics. The reason is obvious — they weren’t amateurs who seldom competed outside their state, they were pros who had won world championships and made millions. And the US contingent of the Ryder Cup is the same. If it were the best amateurs of each country, it would be a big deal to the contestants. If you’re a pro who has won several million this year, it seems like after the first Cup or two, it would be an annoyance.
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The proof is in the putting.
<chortle Or as Hibbard would have us believe: The proof is in the Yorkshire pudding.
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The reason is obvious — they weren’t amateurs who seldom competed outside their state, they were pros who had won world championships and made millions. And the US contingent of the Ryder Cup is the same. If it were the best amateurs of each country, it would be a big deal to the contestants. If you’re a pro who has won several million this year, it seems like after the first Cup or two, it would be an annoyance.
If it were the best amateurs, it would be the Walker Cup… — Joe Cartpath – www.joecartpath.com Basic Golf Clubmaking & Memphis Area Golf Course Guide and….The Memphis MG Page…
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Give it up. Tiger misses putts. He just does it less often than others. That’s part of the reason why he’s the best golfer in the world. Until someone comes up with a more detailed analysis of his putting ability as a function of — hell, as a function of anything with a stable defition — then I’m going to assume all this talk of him "willing putts into the hole" is just a product of selective memory. "Proof by anecdote" does NOT convince me one iota. Would you entertain the possibility that under high-stress situations such as a big putt, Tiger comes closer to making his statistical average than most players do? For example, say both Phil Mickelson and Tiger both make 23% of their putts from 15 feet (this is strictly hypothetical, I have no idea what their actual percentages are). Now what if we did a study that showed that Tiger still made 23% of his putts from 15 feet in "crucial situations" (call it the winning putt, putts on hole #18, putts on the back-9 on Sunday, whatever) while Phil’s percentage dropped to 5%?
Absolutely. Define "crucial situations" first — you can’t find a definition that makes Tiger look good, then call that your definition. Get *all* the data. Then if your results show behavior that’s statistically significant (ie, Tiger being 1-2 and Phil beind 0-2 is *not* statistically significant; Tiger being 20-100 and Phil being 10-100 probably would be), I’d be happy to concede your point. Some might conclude that Phil was a choker, but it may be that EVERY player’s percentage drops under the pressure of a "winning putt."
I’d go so far as to bet that you’re right! I would bet that both Tiger and Nicklaus come closer to making their normal percentage of putts in a high-pressure situation than most pros do. It may be that they even make a higher percentage than normal, due to their enhanced concentration ("willing the ball into the hole") or some other factors. This is all just theory of course, but it makes as much sense as simply stating that "everybody misses putts."
Right. You’re edging closer and closer to real statistics, Annika. :-) You have a theory. You define that theory in a testable way. You collect all the data. (Generally, you collect the data *after* you define the theory, but that would take a while. As long as you define the theory without actually sifting through the data to figure out which theory would be most easily supported, it’s okay to use already-collected data, though). You analyze it. *Then* you draw conclusions, if the data supports them in a statistically significant way. You’re through about 1.5 of the five steps. Unfortunately, step three would require a full-time golf history researcher and I suspect that you already have a full-time job (I know I do) 
. It would be neat if golf kept statistics as throroughly as baseball does, but they don’t. So we’re left to speculate. Just don’t try to "prove" speculation with anecdotes — it doesn’t work that way. Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
Response:
Give it up. Tiger misses putts. He just does it less often than others. That’s part of the reason why he’s the best golfer in the world. Until someone comes up with a more detailed analysis of his putting ability as a function of — hell, as a function of anything with a stable defition — then I’m going to assume all this talk of him "willing putts into the hole" is just a product of selective memory. "Proof by anecdote" does NOT convince me one iota.
Would you entertain the possibility that under high-stress situations such as a big putt, Tiger comes closer to making his statistical average than most players do? For example, say both Phil Mickelson and Tiger both make 23% of their putts from 15 feet (this is strictly hypothetical, I have no idea what their actual percentages are). Now what if we did a study that showed that Tiger still made 23% of his putts from 15 feet in "crucial situations" (call it the winning putt, putts on hole #18, putts on the back-9 on Sunday, whatever) while Phil’s percentage dropped to 5%? Some might conclude that Phil was a choker, but it may be that EVERY player’s percentage drops under the pressure of a "winning putt." I would bet that both Tiger and Nicklaus come closer to making their normal percentage of putts in a high-pressure situation than most pros do. It may be that they even make a higher percentage than normal, due to their enhanced concentration ("willing the ball into the hole") or some other factors. This is all just theory of course, but it makes as much sense as simply stating that "everybody misses putts."
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So now Tiger only wills in the ones that he needs in order to stay alive, not the ones that he needs to win. Nope, I’m afraid Tiger’s also missed putts that he needed to stay alive (think about every Ryder Cup and President’s Cup match that he’s lost, for starters). It may surprise you but i have a theory about this too. I think Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods are too egocentric, which I think they must be to achieve what they have, to be sufficiently motivated by events such as the Ryder and Presidents Cups. I do not think that Jack’s record in the Ryder Cup is that stellar. For example, in 1975 he was beaten twice in singles by Brian Barnes – no slouch, but he was no Jack Nicklaus either, Other players, for whatever the reason, raise their games in the Ryder Cup. Dear old Peter Alliss of the BBC and ABC had that ability when he was one of Britain’s top golfers. Whoever Woods plays in these cups has nothing to lose because they are expected to lose. I think Woods and Nicklaus are motivated less in one of these events than in a major.
So now we’re going to make an excuse for every missed putt — this miss doesn’t count because it wasn’t for a win, that missed putt didn’t count because it wasn’t to stay alive, those missed putts don’t count because they were for the Ryder Cup and not for a tournament . . . etc., etc., ad naseum. Give it up. Tiger misses putts. He just does it less often than others. That’s part of the reason why he’s the best golfer in the world. Until someone comes up with a more detailed analysis of his putting ability as a function of — hell, as a function of anything with a stable defition — then I’m going to assume all this talk of him "willing putts into the hole" is just a product of selective memory. "Proof by anecdote" does NOT convince me one iota. Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
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So now Tiger only wills in the ones that he needs in order to stay alive, not the ones that he needs to win. Nope, I’m afraid Tiger’s also missed putts that he needed to stay alive (think about every Ryder Cup and President’s Cup match that he’s lost, for starters).
It may surprise you but i have a theory about this too. I think Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods are too egocentric, which I think they must be to achieve what they have, to be sufficiently motivated by events such as the Ryder and Presidents Cups. I do not think that Jack’s record in the Ryder Cup is that stellar. For example, in 1975 he was beaten twice in singles by Brian Barnes – no slouch, but he was no Jack Nicklaus either, Other players, for whatever the reason, raise their games in the Ryder Cup. Dear old Peter Alliss of the BBC and ABC had that ability when he was one of Britain’s top golfers. Whoever Woods plays in these cups has nothing to lose because they are expected to lose. I think Woods and Nicklaus are motivated less in one of these events than in a major. B. J. Wilkinson
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There’s no need to give him this supernatural power of concentration and force of will or whatever it is you’re claiming allowed him to make that putt. He’s awesome — that’s enough!
There used to be this guy at our course who would stand and watch me practice putt for what seemd like hours. He told me, "I’m not sure what it is that you do, but you do it every time. You’ve got IT." The crazy fucker later blew his brains out, but I still thought it was a nice thing to say. The moral of the story is: Whatever power Tiger has that allows him to "zone in" or "will the ball into the hole" may be hard to describe, but it’s evident to anyone paying attention that he’s got more of it than most people. Especially Phil.
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In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible. Care to relate what happened on Tiger’s putt to win the tournament on the final hole of regulation? Or have you forgotten already? Ah but he din’t have to have that one did he?
So now Tiger only wills in the ones that he needs in order to stay alive, not the ones that he needs to win. Nope, I’m afraid Tiger’s also missed putts that he needed to stay alive (think about every Ryder Cup and President’s Cup match that he’s lost, for starters). Don’t get me wrong, it was a great putt. But the reason that he made that 15-footer and I lipped out the 8-footer I had for a 79 on Saturday (grrrr . . .) is mostly just because he’s the best golfer in the universe and I’m just a 12-handicap. There’s no need to give him this supernatural power of concentration and force of will or whatever it is you’re claiming allowed him to make that putt. He’s awesome — that’s enough! Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
Response:
In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible.
Care to relate what happened on Tiger’s putt to win the tournament on the final hole of regulation? Or have you forgotten already? Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible. Care to relate what happened on Tiger’s putt to win the tournament on the final hole of regulation? Or have you forgotten already? Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
Ah but he din’t have to have that one did he? B. J. Wilkinson
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In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible. B. J. Wilkinson
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In rec.sport.golf In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible.
#1. He missed a 15′ described by Venturi as "very makeable" to win outright. #2. Do you believe in psychokinesis? Bruce
Response:
In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible.
It’s interesting to note that Pelz also thinks Tiger’s putting technique isn’t the greatest, specifically because he "forces" the ball with his arms/wrists. It’s hard to argue with Tiger’s results. It’s almost as if what Pelz thinks is a weakness for most of us is a strength for Tiger.