This info is just riveting as usual, Colon. I never get tired of
Some useless trivia for you … * 1241 is the highest world ranking. There are several hundred players with this ranking. No. of golfers in top … 10 20 50 100 200
[...] Where’s Germany? We got Alex Cejka and Bernhard Langer in the Top 100 and therefore should trounce Fiji 
Ulrich
This info is just riveting as usual, Colon. I never get tired of
So you’ve fallen asleep in the wheelchair again. You even left out the false teeth for that one. Speaking of colons … has the nurse emptied your bag lately? — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No. of golfers in top … 10 20 50 100 200 United States 6 10 26 50 90 Australia 0 2 5 8 20 Japan 0 0 0 4 15 England 0 0 2 6 14 Sweden 0 0 1 5 9 South Africa 1 2 3 5 7 Scotland 0 0 1 3 4 New Zealand 0 0 1 2 4 Argentina 0 0 1 2 4 Denmark 0 0 1 1 4 Spain 0 1 1 3 4 Canada 1 1 1 1 2 Ireland 1 1 1 1 2 Zimbabwe 0 1 1 1 2 N Ireland 0 1 1 1 2 Korea 0 0 1 1 2 France 0 0 0 0 2 Fiji 1 1 1 1 1
So basically, the top golfers in the world (according to these rankings) are: About 50% United-States-of-American About 10% ANZers About 10% EngScotIrish (what do you call the folks from UK + Ireland?) About 10% Mainland-European About 6% Southern-African About 4% Far-East-Asian About 10% other — Argentian, Canadian, and Vijay Singh, etc. :-) Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)
Some useless trivia for you … Best golfers The figures below are the world ranking of the best, 10th best and 20th best golfer in each country, based on this week’s world ranking (ranked by 20th best). United States 1, 20, 34 Australia 16, 114, 192 Japan 57, 162, 233 England 30, 140, 255 Sweden 37, 240, 371 South Africa 2, 259, 398 Scotland 28, 372, 781 Canada 6, 628, 933 Korea 42, 635, 956 New Zealand 50, 414, 1056 France 131, 687, 1098 Ireland 9, 780, 1241 Denmark 21, 910, 1241 Argentina 43, 772, 1241 Mexico 178, 1241, 1241 Germany 35, 1241, 1241 * 1241 is the highest world ranking. There are several hundred players with this ranking. No. of golfers in top … 10 20 50 100 200 United States 6 10 26 50 90 Australia 0 2 5 8 20 Japan 0 0 0 4 15 England 0 0 2 6 14 Sweden 0 0 1 5 9 South Africa 1 2 3 5 7 Scotland 0 0 1 3 4 New Zealand 0 0 1 2 4 Argentina 0 0 1 2 4 Denmark 0 0 1 1 4 Spain 0 1 1 3 4 Canada 1 1 1 1 2 Ireland 1 1 1 1 2 Zimbabwe 0 1 1 1 2 N Ireland 0 1 1 1 2 Korea 0 0 1 1 2 France 0 0 0 0 2 Fiji 1 1 1 1 1 — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
It was a pleasure to watch Annika play for the past two days. She is a class lady. I am sorry that she didn’t make the cut and hope that she tries again. Her playing partners and the crowd are, IMHO, to be congratulated on the way they conducted themselves.
It was a pleasure to watch Annika play for the past two days. She is a class lady. I am sorry that she didn’t make the cut and hope that she tries again. Her playing partners and the crowd are, IMHO, to be congratulated on the way they conducted themselves.
I’m kinda glad she didn’t make the cut. I like to have a look at all the top golfers when watching on tv. Yesterday they just followed Annika. Peter H
I’m kinda glad she didn’t make the cut. I like to have a look at all the top golfers when watching on tv. Yesterday they just followed Annika. Peter H
I don’t know what you were watching, but I saw an awful lot of Sluman, Forsman and Lickliter.
Top post, as if I cared. Annika rocked.
It was a pleasure to watch Annika play for the past two days. She is a class lady. I am sorry that she didn’t make the cut and hope that she tries again. Her playing partners and the crowd are, IMHO, to be congratulated on the way they conducted themselves.
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I’ll bet his record for "recovery" in a tournament where he’s played about as badly as he’s capable of is more like about 75-for-89. And that’s pretty amazing.
And that’s a big part of why he wins the scoring title each year, which brings up the single golf statistic I personally find most amazing, number of times Nicklaus won the scoring title: 0. Hard to imagine how a player could be that dominant for such a long time without leading that statistic even one year. Of course Jack had Palmer and Casper to contend with (they traded the title for eight years running, if I recall) and then Trevino and Watson, but it boggles my poor mind that Nicklaus never took this title. Captain Slice
And remember, that 8-89 record he has when trailing after 54 holes includes tournaments in which he’s been behind by 1 and tournaments in which he’s been behind by 15.
Okay, let’s amplify this even more. In a round where everyone is equal and starts with the same score and there is a field of, say, 71, everyone has 70:1 odds of winning. But spot that field 1 or more strokes against Tiger, and he has 10:1 odds of winning. He’s 7 times better than everyone else, even when he lets them use their handicap. –Blair "2=1, if you do it right."
And that’s a big part of why he wins the scoring title each year, which brings up the single golf statistic I personally find most amazing, number of times Nicklaus won the scoring title: 0. Hard to imagine how a player could be that dominant for such a long time without leading that statistic even one year. Of course Jack had Palmer and Casper to contend with (they traded the title for eight years running, if I recall) and then Trevino and Watson, but it boggles my poor mind that Nicklaus never took this title.
Well, as I was pointing out elsewhere, he says he sandbagged himself in the weekday rounds of a tournament so he could peak on the weekend. Maybe it failed often enough that it swamped the lower scores he made in his wins. Which makes it the other big difference between Jack and Tiger: Tiger would wipe up the money list with Jack if they played together. –Blair "These guys get to play golf all week. I get to play when my wrists heal…"
And remember, that 8-89 record he has when trailing after 54 holes includes tournaments in which he’s been behind by 1 and tournaments in which he’s been behind by 15. I think a far more amazing statistic, and one which has been completely missed here, is how many times he’s been hopelessly out of contention starting the final round, ranking 20th-30th only to finish in the top 5 or top 10. If you look at his career and see how few times he’s finished out of the top 10 (on average, he only misses the top ten 2-3 times per year), I’ll bet his record for "recovery" in a tournament where he’s played about as badly as he’s capable of is more like about 75-for-89. And that’s pretty amazing.
[snip] It continues to amaze me that he can squeek by a cut on Friday, and be pursuing the lead on a Sunday. Yeah, he rarely actually wins, but he can frequently get close. We frequently see discussions about the relative strength of the overall field with respect to the field Jack had to play against. I’d be curious to know the relative distance between the cut and the leader after Friday in Jack’s day and now. My impression is that the distance is closing. i.e. everyone is piled much closer to the leader indicating there are more people "almost as good" as the leader.
[snip] how about you look at what the stat is telling you in reality how many tournaments has Tiger played in the last 7 years? I would estimate 160. That means he’s in the lead or ahead about 70 times out of 160 or close to 50% of the time he’s at the top. Isn’t that amazing ? Wrong He’s played nearer 130 He’s 8-89 when trailing (sometimes way back) and he’s lead 30 times out of 130+ which is less than 25% But he’s 28-2 when in that position. THAT is amazing.
Yes and no. It’s amazing he wins that much. It’s even more amazing that he is even in a position to win that much. But because he is in a position to win that much, if he _ISN’T_ in that position it’s because things aren’t going well for him so it would be particularly surprising that he does win. He’s 8-89 when trailing on Sunday. So 8 times he won when he may have been playing weaker than normal all weekend but STILL managed to play well enough to come from behind and win. Think of all the guys who play as well as they can and don’t win 8 times in a CAREER. Tiger has had off weekends and STILL won. THAT’S amazing.
And remember, that 8-89 record he has when trailing after 54 holes includes tournaments in which he’s been behind by 1 and tournaments in which he’s been behind by 15. I think a far more amazing statistic, and one which has been completely missed here, is how many times he’s been hopelessly out of contention starting the final round, ranking 20th-30th only to finish in the top 5 or top 10. If you look at his career and see how few times he’s finished out of the top 10 (on average, he only misses the top ten 2-3 times per year), I’ll bet his record for "recovery" in a tournament where he’s played about as badly as he’s capable of is more like about 75-for-89. And that’s pretty amazing. Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] how about you look at what the stat is telling you in reality how many tournaments has Tiger played in the last 7 years? I would estimate 160. That means he’s in the lead or ahead about 70 times out of 160 or close to 50% of the time he’s at the top. Isn’t that amazing ? Wrong He’s played nearer 130 He’s 8-89 when trailing (sometimes way back) and he’s lead 30 times out of 130+ which is less than 25% But he’s 28-2 when in that position. THAT is amazing. Yes and no. It’s amazing he wins that much. It’s even more amazing that he is even in a position to win that much. But because he is in a position to win that much, if he _ISN’T_ in that position it’s because things aren’t going well for him so it would be particularly surprising that he does win. He’s 8-89 when trailing on Sunday. So 8 times he won when he may have been playing weaker than normal all weekend but STILL managed to play well enough to come from behind and win. Think of all the guys who play as well as they can and don’t win 8 times in a CAREER. Tiger has had off weekends and STILL won. THAT’S amazing.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This article says that Tiger is only 8-89 in stroke-play tournaments when trailing after 54 holes. That comes out to an 8% winning percentage, which sounds low, but is it truly bad? I don’t know where to get this information, but I wonder what the winning % of other top golfers are when trailing after 54 holes. Because if the other top golfers % is only 6% or 7%, then Tiger’s looking pretty good. http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/masters/story?id=1538913 how about you look at what the stat is telling you in reality how many tournaments has Tiger played in the last 7 years? I would estimate 160. That means he’s in the lead or ahead about 70 times out of 160 or close to 50% of the time he’s at the top. Isn’t that amazing ?
Wrong He’s played nearer 130 He’s 8-89 when trailing (sometimes way back) and he’s lead 30 times out of 130+ which is less than 25% But he’s 28-2 when in that position. THAT is amazing.
This article says that Tiger is only 8-89 in stroke-play tournaments when trailing after 54 holes. That comes out to an 8% winning percentage, which sounds low, but is it truly bad? I don’t know where to get this information, but I wonder what the winning % of other top golfers are when trailing after 54 holes. Because if the other top golfers % is only 6% or 7%, then Tiger’s looking pretty good. http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/masters/story?id=1538913
how about you look at what the stat is telling you in reality how many tournaments has Tiger played in the last 7 years? I would estimate 160. That means he’s in the lead or ahead about 70 times out of 160 or close to 50% of the time he’s at the top. Isn’t that amazing ? — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Dean" wrote … This article says that Tiger is only 8-89 in stroke-play tournaments when trailing after 54 holes. That comes out to an 8% winning percentage, which sounds low, but is it truly bad? I don’t know where to get this information, but I wonder what the winning % of other top golfers are when trailing after 54 holes. Because if the other top golfers % is only 6% or 7%, then Tiger’s looking pretty good. http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/masters/story?id=1538913 It would be very difficult to gather this information. I’m sure it’s in the TOUR’s database, but you’d have to go digging into its core to dig it up, and it’s not available on PGATOUR.com. But when you stop and consider how many players there are who haven’t won 8 tournaments in their entire career (the number of times Tiger has won when coming from behind on Sunday), his 8% winning percentages in tournaments he’s entered when trailing after 3 rounds isn’t all that bad. Think of all the players who haven’t won 8 percent of their tournaments whether from behind or in front. 8% is better than 0%, and I’ll just about guarantee you that fully half (maybe as many as 75%) of all players who have ever had TOUR cards have 1 or 0 career victories. To further put this in some perspective, think of it this way: There are only about 50 players all-time who have won 15+ titles in their career. The list I have ranks only the top 50 all-time winners and ties, so I’m not sure how far down the rankings you’d have to go to find those who have won 8 titles (the number Tiger has won from behind) to begin extrapolating possibilities. But think about it — in comparison to the thousands of players who have had TOUR cards, even if only for a year, the total number of players with 8+ career victories (100? 140?) must be a pretty small percentage of all those who have teed it up as fully exempt members. Then you factor in the number of times they won from behind versus how many times they won overall. Five wins in a 15 year career is a magnificent career for 95% of all players. Averaging about 24 events per season (24×15) means (if I’ve done my math right) 5 wins in 360 starts. That’s winning 1.3% of the tournaments entered, whether coming from behind or in front. That would be a guy like, say, Fred Funk, for example (or someone comparable). That doesn’t answer your question directly, but this will get you a little closer to it… Tiger has won "only" 8% of the time when he’s trailed after 54 holes. Below on this list, you’ll see all the players currently active on the PGA TOUR who have won 8 or more titles. Alongside their name is the number of titles they’ve won and the first year they played full-time on TOUR. You can get an estimate to compare in the following manner: Calculate the average number of events each player entered per year (a good number to work with, I’d say, is about 23 or 24), or go to PGATOUR.com and you can find out exactly how many tournaments they entered each year. What you won’t be able to tell is how many of their career titles were come-from-behind wins and how many were won playing with the 54-hole lead. But for the sake of putting Tiger’s 8% come-from-behind winning percentage into context, assume for the moment that ALL of these players’ titles were won when coming from behind (you can rest assured that’s not true, but play along for the sake of perspective). From that data, you can then project what their winning percentage is assuming that ALL their titles were come-from-behind wins. I’m quite certain that you’ll find Tiger’s 8% come-from-behind winning percentage stacks up quite nicely against most (probably not all) of these players, especially when you consider that some of these guys have been around on the PGA TOUR since golf clubs were actually made of WOOD. <gasp! PLAYER – career wins – first year full time on PGA TOUR Azinger – 12 – ‘82 (DNP regularly in ‘83 or ‘94) Calcavecchia – 10 – ‘82 Cook – 11 – ‘80 Couples – 14 – ‘81 Duval – 13 – ‘95 Elkington – 10 – ‘87 Els – 12 – ‘94 Faxon – 8* – ‘84 Frost – 10 – ‘85 Haas – 9 – ‘77 Hoch – 11 – ‘80 Janzen – 8 – ‘90 S. Jones – 8 – ‘85 (DNP regularly in ‘94 due to injury) Leonard – 8 – ‘94 Love III – 16 – ‘85 Mickelson – 21 – ‘92 O’Meara – 16 – ‘81 Pavin – 14 – ‘82 Price – 16 – ‘83 Singh – 12 – ‘93 Stadler – 12 – ‘77 Strange – 17 – ‘77 Sutton – 14 – ‘82 Woods 37 – ‘96 *Media Guide lists Faxon with 8 wins. PGATOUR.com credits him with only 7, and doesn’t count the ‘86 Provident Classic. Not sure why. I believe it was an official event. If it wasn’t an official event, then cross him off the list.) Randy
Do you actually have a life?
This article says that Tiger is only 8-89 in stroke-play tournaments when trailing after 54 holes. That comes out to an 8% winning percentage, which sounds low, but is it truly bad? I don’t know where to get this information, but I wonder what the winning % of other top golfers are when trailing after 54 holes. Because if the other top golfers % is only 6% or 7%, then Tiger’s looking pretty good. http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/masters/story?id=1538913
I guess playing with numbers is one of the things that makes sports interesting, but this one is a little off base. Firstly, Tiger Woods plays all the top events, and in his career has played in only a few second tier events, and those very early in his career. And in any event, not too many golfers have a winning percentage of 8% on the US PGA tour period! If your typical PGA Tour player plays in 20 tournaments a year, that’s 200 tournaments in 10 years; he should have 16 US PGA Tour wins per 10 years? Who does that or better these days? Mickleson, Woods and…and….and..????? While I hate all the cheesy hype from commentators, the fact is that no one has ever played golf as well as Tiger Woods has in his PGA Tour career to date. He is the successor to the Jones (best to that point) and Nicklaus (best to that point) in the evolution of the game. He is the guy who takes the advances in the game (instruction, equipment, groundskeeping, etc), and plays the best game allowed in his time. I personally wonder if golf can advance any further and still remain a compelling game; however time will tell. Some thought steel shafts killed the game…and some probably still do, but IMHO, Snead, Hogan, Nicklaus, Palmer, etc….to Woods have played some pretty good golf! Rob — GOP (Golf Only Pledge…I will only initiate golf related threads) Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~frostback2002 )
"Dean" wrote … This article says that Tiger is only 8-89 in stroke-play tournaments when trailing after 54 holes. That comes out to an 8% winning percentage, which sounds low, but is it truly bad? I don’t know where to get this information, but I wonder what the winning % of other top golfers are when trailing after 54 holes. Because if the other top golfers % is only 6% or 7%, then Tiger’s looking pretty good. http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/masters/story?id=1538913
It would be very difficult to gather this information. I’m sure it’s in the TOUR’s database, but you’d have to go digging into its core to dig it up, and it’s not available on PGATOUR.com. But when you stop and consider how many players there are who haven’t won 8 tournaments in their entire career (the number of times Tiger has won when coming from behind on Sunday), his 8% winning percentages in tournaments he’s entered when trailing after 3 rounds isn’t all that bad. Think of all the players who haven’t won 8 percent of their tournaments whether from behind or in front. 8% is better than 0%, and I’ll just about guarantee you that fully half (maybe as many as 75%) of all players who have ever had TOUR cards have 1 or 0 career victories. To further put this in some perspective, think of it this way: There are only about 50 players all-time who have won 15+ titles in their career. The list I have ranks only the top 50 all-time winners and ties, so I’m not sure how far down the rankings you’d have to go to find those who have won 8 titles (the number Tiger has won from behind) to begin extrapolating possibilities. But think about it — in comparison to the thousands of players who have had TOUR cards, even if only for a year, the total number of players with 8+ career victories (100? 140?) must be a pretty small percentage of all those who have teed it up as fully exempt members. Then you factor in the number of times they won from behind versus how many times they won overall. Five wins in a 15 year career is a magnificent career for 95% of all players. Averaging about 24 events per season (24×15) means (if I’ve done my math right) 5 wins in 360 starts. That’s winning 1.3% of the tournaments entered, whether coming from behind or in front. That would be a guy like, say, Fred Funk, for example (or someone comparable). That doesn’t answer your question directly, but this will get you a little closer to it… Tiger has won "only" 8% of the time when he’s trailed after 54 holes. Below on this list, you’ll see all the players currently active on the PGA TOUR who have won 8 or more titles. Alongside their name is the number of titles they’ve won and the first year they played full-time on TOUR. You can get an estimate to compare in the following manner: Calculate the average number of events each player entered per year (a good number to work with, I’d say, is about 23 or 24), or go to PGATOUR.com and you can find out exactly how many tournaments they entered each year. What you won’t be able to tell is how many of their career titles were come-from-behind wins and how many were won playing with the 54-hole lead. But for the sake of putting Tiger’s 8% come-from-behind winning percentage into context, assume for the moment that ALL of these players’ titles were won when coming from behind (you can rest assured that’s not true, but play along for the sake of perspective). From that data, you can then project what their winning percentage is assuming that ALL their titles were come-from-behind wins. I’m quite certain that you’ll find Tiger’s 8% come-from-behind winning percentage stacks up quite nicely against most (probably not all) of these players, especially when you consider that some of these guys have been around on the PGA TOUR since golf clubs were actually made of WOOD. <gasp! PLAYER – career wins – first year full time on PGA TOUR Azinger – 12 – ‘82 (DNP regularly in ‘83 or ‘94) Calcavecchia – 10 – ‘82 Cook – 11 – ‘80 Couples – 14 – ‘81 Duval – 13 – ‘95 Elkington – 10 – ‘87 Els – 12 – ‘94 Faxon – 8* – ‘84 Frost – 10 – ‘85 Haas – 9 – ‘77 Hoch – 11 – ‘80 Janzen – 8 – ‘90 S. Jones – 8 – ‘85 (DNP regularly in ‘94 due to injury) Leonard – 8 – ‘94 Love III – 16 – ‘85 Mickelson – 21 – ‘92 O’Meara – 16 – ‘81 Pavin – 14 – ‘82 Price – 16 – ‘83 Singh – 12 – ‘93 Stadler – 12 – ‘77 Strange – 17 – ‘77 Sutton – 14 – ‘82 Woods 37 – ‘96 *Media Guide lists Faxon with 8 wins. PGATOUR.com credits him with only 7, and doesn’t count the ‘86 Provident Classic. Not sure why. I believe it was an official event. If it wasn’t an official event, then cross him off the list.) Randy
This article says that Tiger is only 8-89 in stroke-play tournaments when trailing after 54 holes. That comes out to an 8% winning percentage, which sounds low, but is it truly bad? I don’t know where to get this information, but I wonder what the winning % of other top golfers are when trailing after 54 holes. Because if the other top golfers % is only 6% or 7%, then Tiger’s looking pretty good. http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/masters/story?id=1538913
I agree with what you are saying. I think that this swing thought is not for beginners. I too tend to overuse my hips which as you say results in a push slice, severe hook or fat shot. I tend to push my wedges way out to the right and often hit my irons slightly fat. By focusing more on my arms I can correct this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What swing thoughts work for a particular player depend on that player’s swing tendencies. When I make bad swings, the predominant problem is excessive hip slide to left which sets us a block right, severe hook or fat shot. So my problem tendency is also too much lower body. Your swing concept works fairly well for me. Many high handicap players have opposite tendency of dominating start of downswing with upper body and over the top move. Arms only might be a disasterous swing thought for them. My game has ben deteriorating slowly over the last 6 months. Sure I can still play well in patches but I play too many loose shots. I have played rounds in the high 70s so I can at times play reasonably well. But all to often I seem to hit one bad shot per hole which looses one or two shots. So I went to the range tonight and tried to keep my body as quiet as possible and simply concentrated on my arms swinging back and through. I started to hit the ball much more consistantly until my body decided that it wanted to get into the act again. When this happened my shots were poor. It almost felt too simple as if I was cheating. My body only responded to the swinging of my arms and did not actively lead. I have a reasonaly good swing and used to have good leg movement. Recently I think that I have been thinking too much about the swing and maybe I should give this new swing thought a try. I will try to keep the body as pasive as possible without being stiff – I know that this won’t work for everybody but if you want to try it out then fine. It’s going to be difficult though because I still have the urge to use my body more. Too many instructors seem to concentrate on far too many body positions. Just stand ‘proud’ (not upright nor slouched). Keep as still as possible and let the arms swing freely back; then let them swing freely through to the finish. Weight shift etc. justs seems to happen; when I concentrate on the weight shift I end up swaying. As long as the body doesn’t get in the way or try to help put some extra zip into the swing then it works for me.
Thanks for explaining. I’ve never heard of Jim Flick – I must find out more. I’m beginning to think that he must be right; too much body movement is bad for me. It detracts from the main focus which is to swing the arms and use the body as passively as possible.
Perhaps you were just swinging the club! Take a look at the top golfers in slow motion, their hands move a few inches whilst the clubhead swings several feet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you explain the constructive comment? Thanks Mr. Flick. The golf instructor Jim Flick also says that focusing on the large muscles of the body tends to wreak havoc with the swings of most amatuers.
What swing thoughts work for a particular player depend on that player’s swing tendencies. When I make bad swings, the predominant problem is excessive hip slide to left which sets us a block right, severe hook or fat shot. So my problem tendency is also too much lower body. Your swing concept works fairly well for me. Many high handicap players have opposite tendency of dominating start of downswing with upper body and over the top move. Arms only might be a disasterous swing thought for them.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My game has ben deteriorating slowly over the last 6 months. Sure I can still play well in patches but I play too many loose shots. I have played rounds in the high 70s so I can at times play reasonably well. But all to often I seem to hit one bad shot per hole which looses one or two shots. So I went to the range tonight and tried to keep my body as quiet as possible and simply concentrated on my arms swinging back and through. I started to hit the ball much more consistantly until my body decided that it wanted to get into the act again. When this happened my shots were poor. It almost felt too simple as if I was cheating. My body only responded to the swinging of my arms and did not actively lead. I have a reasonaly good swing and used to have good leg movement. Recently I think that I have been thinking too much about the swing and maybe I should give this new swing thought a try. I will try to keep the body as pasive as possible without being stiff – I know that this won’t work for everybody but if you want to try it out then fine. It’s going to be difficult though because I still have the urge to use my body more. Too many instructors seem to concentrate on far too many body positions. Just stand ‘proud’ (not upright nor slouched). Keep as still as possible and let the arms swing freely back; then let them swing freely through to the finish. Weight shift etc. justs seems to happen; when I concentrate on the weight shift I end up swaying. As long as the body doesn’t get in the way or try to help put some extra zip into the swing then it works for me.
Thanks. I’m not really interested with detailed theory because that’s what got me into the mess in the first place. I will try to find out about his methods just for interest. My post was just to say that if all else fails then just swing the arms back and through and keep the body passive. That doesn’t mean not using the body because for me the hips etc. turn themselves without thinking. But too much emphasis on body position ends up complicating the swing. I find that I use far too much lower body movement which pushes me ahead of the ball. I can only stay behind the ball by keeping my body as quiet as I can. The swing is then uncomplicated and simple and the results are good. Note that distance isn’t a problem for me but consistancy is. Note that this won’t work for everybody but if you are looking to get back out of a slump then give it a try or better still seek professional advice.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for explaining. I’ve never heard of Jim Flick – I must find out more. I’m beginning to think that he must be right; too much body movement is bad for me. It detracts from the main focus which is to swing the arms and use the body as passively as possible. Flick can often be seen on The Golf Channel and has a golf school to which his name and Jack Nicklaus’ name are attached. I do not know how good his schools are and you most likely would not get Flick himself if you went to one of them, but here is a link to his website: http://www.jimflickgolf.com/index.php — CA Remove NoSpam to email me directly. Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge.
Thanks for explaining. I’ve never heard of Jim Flick – I must find out more. I’m beginning to think that he must be right; too much body movement is bad for me. It detracts from the main focus which is to swing the arms and use the body as passively as possible.
Flick can often be seen on The Golf Channel and has a golf school to which his name and Jack Nicklaus’ name are attached. I do not know how good his schools are and you most likely would not get Flick himself if you went to one of them, but here is a link to his website: http://www.jimflickgolf.com/index.php — CA Remove NoSpam to email me directly. Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge.
Thanks Mr. Flick.
Could you explain the constructive comment?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Mr. Flick.
Could you explain the constructive comment? Thanks Mr. Flick.
The golf instructor Jim Flick also says that focusing on the large muscles of the body tends to wreak havoc with the swings of most amatuers. CA Remove NoSpam to email me directly. Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Thanks for explaining. I’ve never heard of Jim Flick – I must find out more. I’m beginning to think that he must be right; too much body movement is bad for me. It detracts from the main focus which is to swing the arms and use the body as passively as possible.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you explain the constructive comment? Thanks Mr. Flick. The golf instructor Jim Flick also says that focusing on the large muscles of the body tends to wreak havoc with the swings of most amatuers. CA Remove NoSpam to email me directly. Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge.
My game has ben deteriorating slowly over the last 6 months. Sure I can still play well in patches but I play too many loose shots. I have played rounds in the high 70s so I can at times play reasonably well. But all to often I seem to hit one bad shot per hole which looses one or two shots. So I went to the range tonight and tried to keep my body as quiet as possible and simply concentrated on my arms swinging back and through. I started to hit the ball much more consistantly until my body decided that it wanted to get into the act again. When this happened my shots were poor. It almost felt too simple as if I was cheating. My body only responded to the swinging of my arms and did not actively lead. I have a reasonaly good swing and used to have good leg movement. Recently I think that I have been thinking too much about the swing and maybe I should give this new swing thought a try. I will try to keep the body as pasive as possible without being stiff – I know that this won’t work for everybody but if you want to try it out then fine. It’s going to be difficult though because I still have the urge to use my body more. Too many instructors seem to concentrate on far too many body positions. Just stand ‘proud’ (not upright nor slouched). Keep as still as possible and let the arms swing freely back; then let them swing freely through to the finish. Weight shift etc. justs seems to happen; when I concentrate on the weight shift I end up swaying. As long as the body doesn’t get in the way or try to help put some extra zip into the swing then it works for me.
The senior tour will be lucky to still exist when Tiger turns 50… dsc
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can you really see Tiger playing the senior tour? I just can’t visualise it, much like I can’t visualise Greg Norman playing there. Yeah, that’s what we all say, but so far, every good golfer has gone (or am I forgetting someone?) 20 years ago, we could have said the same thing about Nicklaus.
Like many modern athletes (Mark McGwire, Shak, Jordan, etc) many have or will retire before making themselves really famous in the record books because they simply have the money to retire and not worry about it. I would hope Tiger continues to go for the records of Nicklaus both Majors and Total Victories. Like it was a shame to see McGwire retire before breaking Hank’s HR record (with Bonds right behind him), it would be a shame to see Tiger retire when he is still good.
As long as he does what I plan on doing when I retire – play golf, and compete in tournaments that I can play in.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t say It’s not possible, but don’t you think in this 9 year period a new Tiger will show up after all 9 years ago was about the time that tiger first came into the picture ( maybe 10 or 11 years ago ). So you don’t know what will happen the next decade do you. Maybe, but let’s assume that Tiger *is* the new Nicklaus – how long did it take for the second coming to show up? Let’s say Jack stopped being Jack in ‘86 (was earlier, really, but we’ll use that for arguments sake). Tiger won his first major in ‘97. That’s eleven years. Or, 2008. Woods could have won 19 majors by then.
I don’t know how many golfers there were when Jack came along but I know for sure there’s a lot more now.In the Netherlands where I live 20 years ago there were less then 10.000 golfers now there are 170.000 and it is the fastest growing sport here.The more golf gets out of the elite and gets cheaper ( it’s still pretty expensive here ) the more chances are that talents come to surface.Thus making it harder for Tiger to stay on top as long as Jack was. Bouli from the country of orange.
Oh! you mean endoursements. you should have said. but then again, anyone can get those…
Riiiiiighhhhhht…..
At 46 Tiger won’t be playing golf. The stress that he must put on his spine with the speed of his swing will bring him grief. Look at that contortion he put himself in to hit that 90 degree shot from under the trees. No back can stand that kind of punishment! Pat Williams And why would he want to?
Maybe for the same reason Arnold Palmer doesn’t want to give in and quit at age 72… dsc
<snippy Let’s face it – the only competition he has now is Jack Nicklaus. the exactly not true. JN didn’t even play the masters this year, in case you weren’t watching… even if he had played, TW woulda beaten him by miles.
Did you feel the breeze as that one went right over your head… dsc
<snippy Woods already has about 200 million USD. By 2010 he’ll have over a billion. wow! those are pretty big numbers. let’s see: each win = 1mill. that would make hime a 200 time winner… wow!! Oh! you mean endoursements. you should have said. but then again, anyone can get those…
Sure they can, that’s why golfers by the hundreds are racking up millions in endorsement deals, just like Tiger. Aren’t they? Why bother teeing it up when you’ve proven yourself the best of all time? errr…. a few years back (BT – before tiger) many doubted we’d ever see another to rival JN. and here we have. to doubt we’ll ever see anyone to rival TW is naive.
The future does not count as "all time," as it’s not time that yet exists. But you knew that, didn’t you?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At 46 Tiger won’t be playing golf. The stress that he must put on his spine with the speed of his swing will bring him grief. Look at that contortion he put himself in to hit that 90 degree shot from under the trees. No back can stand that kind of punishment! Pat Williams And why would he want to? He’s 26 now. Let’s assume he averages three major wins every two years (we’ll count this victory as the first of the two-year period). 2002-2003 – 9 total major wins 2004-2005 – 12 2006-2007 – 15 2008-2009 – 18 2010-2011 – 19+ So, by 2011 Tiger can beat Jack’s record (in both pro and pro+amateur majors) and retire… at the ripe old age of 35. Even assuming that those numbers are too confident, assuming he plays until he’s forty and only wins one major a year he can still beat Jack’s record as a young man. 2002 – 7 total major wins 2003 – 8 2004 – 9 2005 – 10 2006 – 11 2007 – 12 2008 – 13 2009 – 14 2010 – 15 2011 – 16 2012 – 17 2013 – 18 2014 – 19 total major wins (22 win amateurs) In 2014, Tiger will be 38. Let’s face it – the only competition he has now is Jack Nicklaus. And I can’t see him teeing it up as an old man. Golf isn’t like that any more. Palmer, Nicklaus etc kept playing because they needed the money – it only arrived in golf really from the 80s onwards, and boomed in the 90s and this decade. Woods already has about 200 million USD. By 2010 he’ll have over a billion. Why bother teeing it up when you’ve proven yourself the best of all time?
Like many modern athletes (Mark McGwire, Shak, Jordan, etc) many have or will retire before making themselves really famous in the record books because they simply have the money to retire and not worry about it. I would hope Tiger continues to go for the records of Nicklaus both Majors and Total Victories. Like it was a shame to see McGwire retire before breaking Hank’s HR record (with Bonds right behind him), it would be a shame to see Tiger retire when he is still good.
I don’t say It’s not possible, but don’t you think in this 9 year period a new Tiger will show up after all 9 years ago was about the time that tiger first came into the picture ( maybe 10 or 11 years ago ). So you don’t know what will happen the next decade do you.
Maybe, but let’s assume that Tiger *is* the new Nicklaus – how long did it take for the second coming to show up? Let’s say Jack stopped being Jack in ‘86 (was earlier, really, but we’ll use that for arguments sake). Tiger won his first major in ‘97. That’s eleven years. Or, 2008. Woods could have won 19 majors by then.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At 46 Tiger won’t be playing golf. The stress that he must put on his spine with the speed of his swing will bring him grief. Look at that contortion he put himself in to hit that 90 degree shot from under the trees. No back can stand that kind of punishment! Pat Williams And why would he want to? He’s 26 now. Let’s assume he averages three major wins every two years (we’ll count this victory as the first of the two-year period). 2002-2003 – 9 total major wins 2004-2005 – 12 2006-2007 – 15 2008-2009 – 18 2010-2011 – 19+
I don’t say It’s not possible, but don’t you think in this 9 year period a new Tiger will show up after all 9 years ago was about the time that tiger first came into the picture ( maybe 10 or 11 years ago ). So you don’t know what will happen the next decade do you. Bouli from the country of orange. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, by 2011 Tiger can beat Jack’s record (in both pro and pro+amateur majors) and retire… at the ripe old age of 35. Even assuming that those numbers are too confident, assuming he plays until he’s forty and only wins one major a year he can still beat Jack’s record as a young man. 2002 – 7 total major wins 2003 – 8 2004 – 9 2005 – 10 2006 – 11 2007 – 12 2008 – 13 2009 – 14 2010 – 15 2011 – 16 2012 – 17 2013 – 18 2014 – 19 total major wins (22 win amateurs) In 2014, Tiger will be 38. Let’s face it – the only competition he has now is Jack Nicklaus. And I can’t see him teeing it up as an old man. Golf isn’t like that any more. Palmer, Nicklaus etc kept playing because they needed the money – it only arrived in golf really from the 80s onwards, and boomed in the 90s and this decade. Woods already has about 200 million USD. By 2010 he’ll have over a billion. Why bother teeing it up when you’ve proven yourself the best of all time?
<snippy Let’s face it – the only competition he has now is Jack Nicklaus.
the exactly not true. JN didn’t even play the masters this year, in case you weren’t watching… even if he had played, TW woulda beaten him by miles. And I can’t see him teeing it up as an old man. Golf isn’t like that any more. Palmer, Nicklaus etc kept playing because they needed the money – it only arrived in golf really from the 80s onwards, and boomed in the 90s and this decade. Woods already has about 200 million USD. By 2010 he’ll have over a
billion. wow! those are pretty big numbers. let’s see: each win = 1mill. that would make hime a 200 time winner… wow!! Oh! you mean endoursements. you should have said. but then again, anyone can get those… Why bother teeing it up when you’ve proven yourself the best of all time?
errr…. a few years back (BT – before tiger) many doubted we’d ever see another to rival JN. and here we have. to doubt we’ll ever see anyone to rival TW is naive.
Let’s face it – the only competition he has now is Jack Nicklaus. the exactly not true. JN didn’t even play the masters this year, in case you weren’t watching… even if he had played, TW woulda beaten him by miles.
Er… I am aware of that. I meant that Woods only rival in terms of *history* is Jack Nicklaus. That, after all, is the point with Tiger – to beat Jack. Sheesh… as if I’d be suggesting Nicklaus was a rival on the tour now. (!) wow! those are pretty big numbers. let’s see: each win = 1mill. that would make hime a 200 time winner… wow!! Oh! you mean endoursements. you should have said. but then again, anyone can get those…
Er… that’s besides the point (???). Why bother teeing it up when you’ve proven yourself the best of all time? errr…. a few years back (BT – before tiger) many doubted we’d ever see another to rival JN. and here we have. to doubt we’ll ever see anyone to rival TW is naive.
Um, did you actually read my post? Who said anything about someone *not* rivalling Tiger? That’s a different thread (and I’ve commented on that elsewhere). Besides, nobody ‘rivalled Nicklaus in his prime. It took twenty odd years for somebody comparable to come along. This thread is about Tiger beating Nicklaus’s major victory total, and how he could do that at a modest pace and still finish whilst under forty. Please read posts more carefully before jumping to incorrect conclusions.
Why bother teeing it up when you’ve proven yourself the best of all time?
Because… it’s fun? Although I think I recall Tiger saying that it’s not really fun, it’s just a job to him. So he might quit sooner than others. But if I had the chance, I don’t think I’d stop till I got to the Senior tour at least.
Can you really see Tiger playing the senior tour? I just can’t visualise it, much like I can’t visualise Greg Norman playing there. I think some of these guys care less about the golf part and more about competiting against the best, titles etc. I mean, Norman just as easily could have been a big game fisherman. Of course, he’d have had his share of lines snapping just as he was about to land ‘The General’, but you know what I mean. Couples ‘Major Winners’ tour is more attractive to these fellows (if it happens.) Although that to me kind of stinks of "We can’t compete any more – let’s take our ball to another field."
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why bother teeing it up when you’ve proven yourself the best of all time? Because… it’s fun? Although I think I recall Tiger saying that it’s not really fun, it’s just a job to him. So he might quit sooner than others. But if I had the chance, I don’t think I’d stop till I got to the Senior tour at least.
Why continue to have sex when you’ve slept with about every beautiful woman you’ve seen? Answer – because it’s fun!
and like golf.. you are always in search of that perfect stroke.. =]
Can you really see Tiger playing the senior tour? I just can’t visualise it, much like I can’t visualise Greg Norman playing there.
Yeah, that’s what we all say, but so far, every good golfer has gone (or am I forgetting someone?) 20 years ago, we could have said the same thing about Nicklaus.
Why continue to have sex when you’ve slept with about every beautiful woman you’ve seen? Answer – because it’s fun! That’s why most of the top golfers keep plugging long past their primes and long past the time when money meant anything to their life-styles. If most of them weren’t consumed by playing it they wouldn’t have gotten to where they are. If Jack Nicklaus has one wish to be granted to him, it would be his ability to play the Masters making the cut so he could play the weekend. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At 46 Tiger won’t be playing golf. The stress that he must put on his spine Why bother teeing it up when you’ve proven yourself the best of all time?
At 46 Tiger won’t be playing golf. The stress that he must put on his spine with the speed of his swing will bring him grief. Look at that contortion he put himself in to hit that 90 degree shot from under the trees. No back can stand that kind of punishment! Pat Williams
And why would he want to? He’s 26 now. Let’s assume he averages three major wins every two years (we’ll count this victory as the first of the two-year period). 2002-2003 – 9 total major wins 2004-2005 – 12 2006-2007 – 15 2008-2009 – 18 2010-2011 – 19+ So, by 2011 Tiger can beat Jack’s record (in both pro and pro+amateur majors) and retire… at the ripe old age of 35. Even assuming that those numbers are too confident, assuming he plays until he’s forty and only wins one major a year he can still beat Jack’s record as a young man. 2002 – 7 total major wins 2003 – 8 2004 – 9 2005 – 10 2006 – 11 2007 – 12 2008 – 13 2009 – 14 2010 – 15 2011 – 16 2012 – 17 2013 – 18 2014 – 19 total major wins (22 win amateurs) In 2014, Tiger will be 38. Let’s face it – the only competition he has now is Jack Nicklaus. And I can’t see him teeing it up as an old man. Golf isn’t like that any more. Palmer, Nicklaus etc kept playing because they needed the money – it only arrived in golf really from the 80s onwards, and boomed in the 90s and this decade. Woods already has about 200 million USD. By 2010 he’ll have over a billion. Why bother teeing it up when you’ve proven yourself the best of all time?
It would be neat if golf kept statistics as throroughly as baseball does, but they don’t. So we’re left to speculate. Just don’t try to "prove" speculation with anecdotes — it doesn’t work that way.
Nobody is trying to "prove" anything. The proof is in the putting.
It may surprise you but i have a theory about this too. I think Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods are too egocentric, which I think they must be to achieve what they have, to be sufficiently motivated by events such as the Ryder and Presidents Cups.
At the risk of getting flamed by purists, I don’t see why the top pros even bother with the Ryder Cup. To make this less emotional, let’s forget golf for a second and talk basketball. When the US didn’t win the gold medal for the first time since forever, they immediately changed the rules to let the pros compete. So we had our "dream team" of Jordan, Barkley, etc., and they naturally won. But if you saw them off the court, it was like a day at the beach for them. No awe or humility at being in the Olympics, just something cool to do once. Lots of them didn’t bother to try out for the team the next Olympics. The reason is obvious — they weren’t amateurs who seldom competed outside their state, they were pros who had won world championships and made millions. And the US contingent of the Ryder Cup is the same. If it were the best amateurs of each country, it would be a big deal to the contestants. If you’re a pro who has won several million this year, it seems like after the first Cup or two, it would be an annoyance.
The proof is in the putting.
<chortle Or as Hibbard would have us believe: The proof is in the Yorkshire pudding.
The reason is obvious — they weren’t amateurs who seldom competed outside their state, they were pros who had won world championships and made millions. And the US contingent of the Ryder Cup is the same. If it were the best amateurs of each country, it would be a big deal to the contestants. If you’re a pro who has won several million this year, it seems like after the first Cup or two, it would be an annoyance.
If it were the best amateurs, it would be the Walker Cup… — Joe Cartpath – www.joecartpath.com Basic Golf Clubmaking & Memphis Area Golf Course Guide and….The Memphis MG Page…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Give it up. Tiger misses putts. He just does it less often than others. That’s part of the reason why he’s the best golfer in the world. Until someone comes up with a more detailed analysis of his putting ability as a function of — hell, as a function of anything with a stable defition — then I’m going to assume all this talk of him "willing putts into the hole" is just a product of selective memory. "Proof by anecdote" does NOT convince me one iota. Would you entertain the possibility that under high-stress situations such as a big putt, Tiger comes closer to making his statistical average than most players do? For example, say both Phil Mickelson and Tiger both make 23% of their putts from 15 feet (this is strictly hypothetical, I have no idea what their actual percentages are). Now what if we did a study that showed that Tiger still made 23% of his putts from 15 feet in "crucial situations" (call it the winning putt, putts on hole #18, putts on the back-9 on Sunday, whatever) while Phil’s percentage dropped to 5%?
Absolutely. Define "crucial situations" first — you can’t find a definition that makes Tiger look good, then call that your definition. Get *all* the data. Then if your results show behavior that’s statistically significant (ie, Tiger being 1-2 and Phil beind 0-2 is *not* statistically significant; Tiger being 20-100 and Phil being 10-100 probably would be), I’d be happy to concede your point. Some might conclude that Phil was a choker, but it may be that EVERY player’s percentage drops under the pressure of a "winning putt."
I’d go so far as to bet that you’re right! I would bet that both Tiger and Nicklaus come closer to making their normal percentage of putts in a high-pressure situation than most pros do. It may be that they even make a higher percentage than normal, due to their enhanced concentration ("willing the ball into the hole") or some other factors. This is all just theory of course, but it makes as much sense as simply stating that "everybody misses putts."
Right. You’re edging closer and closer to real statistics, Annika. :-) You have a theory. You define that theory in a testable way. You collect all the data. (Generally, you collect the data *after* you define the theory, but that would take a while. As long as you define the theory without actually sifting through the data to figure out which theory would be most easily supported, it’s okay to use already-collected data, though). You analyze it. *Then* you draw conclusions, if the data supports them in a statistically significant way. You’re through about 1.5 of the five steps. Unfortunately, step three would require a full-time golf history researcher and I suspect that you already have a full-time job (I know I do) . It would be neat if golf kept statistics as throroughly as baseball does, but they don’t. So we’re left to speculate. Just don’t try to "prove" speculation with anecdotes — it doesn’t work that way. Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
Give it up. Tiger misses putts. He just does it less often than others. That’s part of the reason why he’s the best golfer in the world. Until someone comes up with a more detailed analysis of his putting ability as a function of — hell, as a function of anything with a stable defition — then I’m going to assume all this talk of him "willing putts into the hole" is just a product of selective memory. "Proof by anecdote" does NOT convince me one iota.
Would you entertain the possibility that under high-stress situations such as a big putt, Tiger comes closer to making his statistical average than most players do? For example, say both Phil Mickelson and Tiger both make 23% of their putts from 15 feet (this is strictly hypothetical, I have no idea what their actual percentages are). Now what if we did a study that showed that Tiger still made 23% of his putts from 15 feet in "crucial situations" (call it the winning putt, putts on hole #18, putts on the back-9 on Sunday, whatever) while Phil’s percentage dropped to 5%? Some might conclude that Phil was a choker, but it may be that EVERY player’s percentage drops under the pressure of a "winning putt." I would bet that both Tiger and Nicklaus come closer to making their normal percentage of putts in a high-pressure situation than most pros do. It may be that they even make a higher percentage than normal, due to their enhanced concentration ("willing the ball into the hole") or some other factors. This is all just theory of course, but it makes as much sense as simply stating that "everybody misses putts."
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So now Tiger only wills in the ones that he needs in order to stay alive, not the ones that he needs to win. Nope, I’m afraid Tiger’s also missed putts that he needed to stay alive (think about every Ryder Cup and President’s Cup match that he’s lost, for starters). It may surprise you but i have a theory about this too. I think Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods are too egocentric, which I think they must be to achieve what they have, to be sufficiently motivated by events such as the Ryder and Presidents Cups. I do not think that Jack’s record in the Ryder Cup is that stellar. For example, in 1975 he was beaten twice in singles by Brian Barnes – no slouch, but he was no Jack Nicklaus either, Other players, for whatever the reason, raise their games in the Ryder Cup. Dear old Peter Alliss of the BBC and ABC had that ability when he was one of Britain’s top golfers. Whoever Woods plays in these cups has nothing to lose because they are expected to lose. I think Woods and Nicklaus are motivated less in one of these events than in a major.
So now we’re going to make an excuse for every missed putt — this miss doesn’t count because it wasn’t for a win, that missed putt didn’t count because it wasn’t to stay alive, those missed putts don’t count because they were for the Ryder Cup and not for a tournament . . . etc., etc., ad naseum. Give it up. Tiger misses putts. He just does it less often than others. That’s part of the reason why he’s the best golfer in the world. Until someone comes up with a more detailed analysis of his putting ability as a function of — hell, as a function of anything with a stable defition — then I’m going to assume all this talk of him "willing putts into the hole" is just a product of selective memory. "Proof by anecdote" does NOT convince me one iota. Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
So now Tiger only wills in the ones that he needs in order to stay alive, not the ones that he needs to win. Nope, I’m afraid Tiger’s also missed putts that he needed to stay alive (think about every Ryder Cup and President’s Cup match that he’s lost, for starters).
It may surprise you but i have a theory about this too. I think Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods are too egocentric, which I think they must be to achieve what they have, to be sufficiently motivated by events such as the Ryder and Presidents Cups. I do not think that Jack’s record in the Ryder Cup is that stellar. For example, in 1975 he was beaten twice in singles by Brian Barnes – no slouch, but he was no Jack Nicklaus either, Other players, for whatever the reason, raise their games in the Ryder Cup. Dear old Peter Alliss of the BBC and ABC had that ability when he was one of Britain’s top golfers. Whoever Woods plays in these cups has nothing to lose because they are expected to lose. I think Woods and Nicklaus are motivated less in one of these events than in a major. B. J. Wilkinson
There’s no need to give him this supernatural power of concentration and force of will or whatever it is you’re claiming allowed him to make that putt. He’s awesome — that’s enough!
There used to be this guy at our course who would stand and watch me practice putt for what seemd like hours. He told me, "I’m not sure what it is that you do, but you do it every time. You’ve got IT." The crazy fucker later blew his brains out, but I still thought it was a nice thing to say. The moral of the story is: Whatever power Tiger has that allows him to "zone in" or "will the ball into the hole" may be hard to describe, but it’s evident to anyone paying attention that he’s got more of it than most people. Especially Phil.
In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible. Care to relate what happened on Tiger’s putt to win the tournament on the final hole of regulation? Or have you forgotten already? Ah but he din’t have to have that one did he?
So now Tiger only wills in the ones that he needs in order to stay alive, not the ones that he needs to win. Nope, I’m afraid Tiger’s also missed putts that he needed to stay alive (think about every Ryder Cup and President’s Cup match that he’s lost, for starters). Don’t get me wrong, it was a great putt. But the reason that he made that 15-footer and I lipped out the 8-footer I had for a 79 on Saturday (grrrr . . .) is mostly just because he’s the best golfer in the universe and I’m just a 12-handicap. There’s no need to give him this supernatural power of concentration and force of will or whatever it is you’re claiming allowed him to make that putt. He’s awesome — that’s enough! Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible.
Care to relate what happened on Tiger’s putt to win the tournament on the final hole of regulation? Or have you forgotten already? Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible. Care to relate what happened on Tiger’s putt to win the tournament on the final hole of regulation? Or have you forgotten already? Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
Ah but he din’t have to have that one did he? B. J. Wilkinson
In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible. B. J. Wilkinson
In rec.sport.golf In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible.
#1. He missed a 15′ described by Venturi as "very makeable" to win outright. #2. Do you believe in psychokinesis? Bruce
In the playoff Woods sank a breaking 15 footer to stay alive. That’s what we mean by great players willing the ball into the hole. Its not just statistics Mr Massey. Statistically pros make 10 to 20% of those putts – Pelz Putting Bible.
It’s interesting to note that Pelz also thinks Tiger’s putting technique isn’t the greatest, specifically because he "forces" the ball with his arms/wrists. It’s hard to argue with Tiger’s results. It’s almost as if what Pelz thinks is a weakness for most of us is a strength for Tiger.
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Am betting that lefties Mike Weir and Steve Flesch break through this year to join Tiger, Duvall, and fellow port-sider Phil Mickelson as the top five golfers of 2001.
Duval better start pulling his trousers up or he is gunna slide right out of the top 5 very soon. — regards ‘ . . |18 . ‘ . | O . ‘o | . | / . | / / .’ | RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/blakem.htm
Am betting that lefties Mike Weir and Steve Flesch break through this year to join Tiger, Duvall, and fellow port-sider Phil Mickelson as the top five golfers of 2001.
Duval better start pulling his trousers up or he is gunna slide right out of the top 5 very soon. — regards ‘ . . |18 . ‘ . | O . ‘o | . | / . | / / .’ | RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/blakem.htm
LOL. It could happen, but it’d be difficult to enter a season as a winless veteran (SF) , play in tournaments against Tiger Woods, and then emerge a sone of the top golfers in the world.
Good point. Flesch obviously needs to break the ice. My hunch is that, once he does, he has the game to be a strong contender week after week — "The spirit grows, strength is restored by wounds." — Nietzsche. ——- homepage: http://www.depaul.edu/~dsimpson
Who are you betting with? I’ll take Vijay over Flesch and Weir in every tournament. You’re on (for sport only): you get Singh; I get Flesch AND Weir. Highest finish of the three wins. Which tournament?
All of them!
Am betting that lefties Mike Weir and Steve Flesch break through this year to join Tiger, Duvall, and fellow port-sider Phil Mickelson as the top five golfers of 2001. — "The spirit grows, strength is restored by wounds." — Nietzsche. ——- homepage: http://www.depaul.edu/~dsimpson
Am betting that lefties Mike Weir and Steve Flesch break through this year to join Tiger, Duvall, and fellow port-sider Phil Mickelson as the top five golfers of 2001.
Who are you betting with? I’ll take Vijay over Flesch and Weir in every tournament.
Am betting that lefties Mike Weir and Steve Flesch break through this year to join Tiger, Duvall, and fellow port-sider Phil Mickelson as the top five golfers of 2001.
LOL. It could happen, but it’d be difficult to enter a season as a winless veteran (SF) , play in tournaments against Tiger Woods, and then emerge a sone of the top golfers in the world.
Who are you betting with? I’ll take Vijay over Flesch and Weir in every tournament.
You’re on (for sport only): you get Singh; I get Flesch AND Weir. Highest finish of the three wins. Which tournament? — "The spirit grows, strength is restored by wounds." — Nietzsche. ——- homepage: http://www.depaul.edu/~dsimpson
I didn’t get a chance to catch any of it last year and looking at the field just now, I see it’s very small. But how is the field determined? I see the players all top golfers in the world, but anyone know exactly how it’s done?
I believe, although not positive, that its determined by personal invitation from the host and his "people", Tiger Woods. Not sure however, correct me if I’m wrong.
I didn’t get a chance to catch any of it last year and looking at the field just now, I see it’s very small. But how is the field determined? I see the players all top golfers in the world, but anyone know exactly how it’s done?
It consists of Tour players who owe Tiger Woods money.
I didn’t get a chance to catch any of it last year and looking at the field just now, I see it’s very small. But how is the field determined? I see the players all top golfers in the world, but anyone know exactly how it’s done? Best, Steve
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) If your left thumb is "below" the right hand, it sounds like you have gone to a 10 finger, or "baseball" grip. Or do you also still overlap? How many knuckles can you see on your left hand? Where do the V’s point? The most common grip used by the pro’s has 2 knuckles showing on the left hand, the left hand V pointed at the right ear, and the right hand V pointed at the right shoulder. This is a strong grip, but I take it, not as strong as you have. The grip is a very important fundamental, and worth fixing. If you have a bad grip, you don’t WANT a good swing. But the first step is to fix the thing you are compensating for with the bad grip. I suspect it is an over-the-top outside in swing. Learn to swing inside out. You will start hooking like mad, and you’ll adjust your grip on your own. Sorry, I just don’t think you ARE Fred Couples, and I don’t think he uses the grip you describe (with the left thumb "below" the right hand). Immediate scores mean nothing. Only long-term results matter. Or go follow Band-Aide George. Before you buy. mbarry: I hope the stupidity of these comments here is not lost on you. You are NOT bandaiding when you outplay the players of your club. You are swinging with YOUR swing. Did you read Daly? I bet bighorn hasn’t. Unless he is the one who reported here a couple months ago that Daly didn’t know what he was talking about. Bighorn won a couple of majors and drives the ball 340, so ignore daly. George
This is the post I am referring to, George. See how I recommended the SLAP grip, and you called me stupid? I even asked for more details from him, and you called me stupid without knowing the facts yourself. Who, exactly, is being stupid here? Before you buy.
his. And recommending the SLAP pro grip, on your part, is not recommending the entire SLAP message — that indeed a grip needs to fit each person, not the Pro model as it appears.
Can you tell me where you found this portion of the "SLAP message?" I have read this book over and over, and I have the CD on my computer at work. The overwhelming impression I get from SLAP is "do it this way." Actually you are correct about the message being incomplete. As you read further you will discover that Mann/Griffith say the grip is necessary because of the forward ball position they recommend. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Dave, I can tell you’ve thought about that book by your comment below. Maybe you’re closer to the promised land than you think!
Thanks, Mike..sure hope so. I’ve said it before–I buy into SLAP all the way on an intellectual level. I just wish there was a CompuSport facility here, or at least an instructor who taught it. Tomorrow should be an interesting test. I’m heading back to the course where I played my first few rounds and scored between 118 and 125. It has a lot more water and OB then my home course (but the slope is just a little higher). Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
his. And recommending the SLAP pro grip, on your part, is not recommending the entire SLAP message — that indeed a grip needs to fit each person, not the Pro model as it appears. Can you tell me where you found this portion of the "SLAP message?" I have read this book over and over, and I have the CD on my computer at work. The overwhelming impression I get from SLAP is "do it this way."
It is subsumed in the overall message about the fact that your grip must naturally return the clubface square and not to use a too strong grip as a bandaid, or to use a too weak grip for its problems. (Hogan’s own grip would probably be to weak for most golfers). But their picture of a too strong grip shows the RIGHT hand turned under the club, and that is the wrong part. The position [amount of rotation of the left hand and how to express its degree of rotation ]of the LEFT HAND on the shaft is reality is not a precise measurement and it will depend on the size of the grip, the size of the golfer’s hand, and the inward hang of his own hands when at rest (very toed in or less toed in). Els uses a weaker grip than the model; Couples a stronger –BUT BOTH AS TO LEFT HAND ONLY. There is no direct quote in Mann that allows for exceptions. But I think I am fair in filling in the blanks as to how Mann would address Ernie, or Freddie, or any other golfer whose swing pattern did NOT need compensating. You also picked up on the overall message, no? Actually you are correct about the message being incomplete. As you read further you will discover that Mann/Griffith say the grip is necessary because of the forward ball position they recommend.
It is not forward ball position. It is that IMPACT occurs with the hands so much ahead of the clubhead, that the clubface is not yet closed. Ball position that Mann recommends is under the left ear, appx. Which is a hair forward of what I think is better for most players because impact before low point is a bit easier than at that critical point. But each golfer needs to work out for himself what works the best within reason. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Dave, I can tell you’ve thought about that book by your comment below. Maybe you’re closer to the promised land than you think! It certainly suggests reading the whole book before drawing any firm conclusions. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – his. And recommending the SLAP pro grip, on your part, is not recommending the entire SLAP message — that indeed a grip needs to fit each person, not the Pro model as it appears. Can you tell me where you found this portion of the "SLAP message?" I have read this book over and over, and I have the CD on my computer at work. The overwhelming impression I get from SLAP is "do it this way." Actually you are correct about the message being incomplete. As you read further you will discover that Mann/Griffith say the grip is necessary because of the forward ball position they recommend. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
– Mike Dalecki–Charter Member, RSG Clique I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
<snip Does Daly really use a 10 finger grip? I didn’t remember that being the case. How many other pros do? Do you think there is a reason that the majority of pros swing a particular way, and grip the club a particular way?
That’s weird. This just came up in another thread. Bernhard Langer won his first Masters with a ten-finger grip. But, his thumb wasn’t screwed around the shaft behind the rigth hand! — Barry http://www.golfopia.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) If your left thumb is "below" the right hand, it sounds like you have gone to a 10 finger, or "baseball" grip. Or do you also still overlap? How many knuckles can you see on your left hand? Where do the V’s point? The most common grip used by the pro’s has 2 knuckles showing on the left hand, the left hand V pointed at the right ear, and the right hand V pointed at the right shoulder. This is a strong grip, but I take it, not as strong as you have. The grip is a very important fundamental, and worth fixing. If you have a bad grip, you don’t WANT a good swing. But the first step is to fix the thing you are compensating for with the bad grip. I suspect it is an over-the-top outside in swing. Learn to swing inside out. You will start hooking like mad, and you’ll adjust your grip on your own. Sorry, I just don’t think you ARE Fred Couples, and I don’t think he uses the grip you describe (with the left thumb "below" the right hand). Immediate scores mean nothing. Only long-term results matter. Or go follow Band-Aide George. Before you buy. mbarry: I hope the stupidity of these comments here is not lost on you. You are NOT bandaiding when you outplay the players of your club. You are swinging with YOUR swing. Did you read Daly? I bet bighorn hasn’t. Unless he is the one who reported here a couple months ago that Daly didn’t know what he was talking about. Bighorn won a couple of majors and drives the ball 340, so ignore daly. George This is the post I am referring to, George. See how I recommended the SLAP grip, and you called me stupid? I even asked for more details from him, and you called me stupid without knowing the facts yourself. Who, exactly, is being stupid here?
This single post does not establish the whole context for the stupidity comment. First, there was a presumption that mbarry had a too strong grip. His reported ball striking of such success and distance was not, IMO, due to or under influce of a compensated grip. Daly and Couples DO have a very strong grip and I do not subscribe to any theory that either one is "compensating". And if Mann says that NO one is to use a stronger grip than his Pro model, we would not ever have heard of Keuhne, Daly, Azinger, Duval, Langer, Couples, and a host of other very well know household names. I do not believe Mann intends to blanket that anything stronger than his picture of the Pro model is "incorrect" or compensating in nature. Further, even if it might be, I would argue and he would also probably agree that the "compensation" word is unfair, that in actuality it is a PERSONAL ADJUSTMENT concern based on a given physical shape/strength/balance of forces within the individual golfer that is of more importance and that gives rise to the grip he finds works the best. Mann’s BASIC is the PRINCIPLE, i.e., that the grip TAKEN must AUTOMATICALLY return the clubface square for separation, other things being correct as to timing and path. If that works for the golfer, we do not have the right to assume he is compensating and is therefor employing inferior technique. I believe I myself addressed mbarry with the point that the left thumb belonged down the shaft, as well as inside the pocket of the right palm, as far as that part was concerned. I felt he might be saying that his left thumb CROSSED the shaft and extended DOWN UNDER it below the right hand lifeline pocket. But you had condemned him before knowing any more than this brief post of his. And recommending the SLAP pro grip, on your part, is not recommending the entire SLAP message — that indeed a grip needs to fit each person, not the Pro model as it appears. My take on mbarry’s success with his chosen protocol (except the left thumb off the shaft) was that he was already right on the money. He had not indicated that he is fighting a hook….(The left thumb BELONGS "way down into the right palm", per Pro, SLAP. Page 46, 2nd paragraph: "Now close your right hand, folding the lifeline of your right palm snugly around your left thumb.")
Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. Bad habits are hard to break, and a bad grip is a very bad habit. If you don’t fix it now, when you are a relative newby, it will be 10x harder to change in 10 years. But LIKE I SAID, fix the root cause for the compensating grip FIRST. Then you will be forced to fix the grip.
I havn’t been following this thread, so, with a grain of salt, let me add: I agree with what Big say’s above. I too have used a compensating grip, and it worked to my advantage…I rotated ny right hand into a strong position to accelerate my wrist break and close the clubface (slice fighting). It helped a lot…But with practice, offset clubs, and low sidespin balls, I gradually tamed the slice tendencys to the point that the grip was causing hooks…In my case, reorienting to a standard grip was easy. ]]]Z[[[
- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I've used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I've observed). Here's where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) If your left thumb is "below" the right hand, it sounds like you have gone to a 10 finger, or "baseball" grip. Or do you also still overlap? How many knuckles can you see on your left hand? Where do the V's point? The most common grip used by the pro's has 2 knuckles showing on the left hand, the left hand V pointed at the right ear, and the right hand V pointed at the right shoulder. This is a strong grip, but I take it, not as strong as you have. The grip is a very important fundamental, and worth fixing. If you have a bad grip, you don't WANT a good swing. But the first step is to fix the thing you are compensating for with the bad grip. I suspect it is an over-the-top outside in swing. Learn to swing inside out. You will start hooking like mad, and you'll adjust your grip on your own. Sorry, I just don't think you ARE Fred Couples, and I don't think he uses the grip you describe (with the left thumb "below" the right hand). Immediate scores mean nothing. Only long-term results matter. Or go follow Band-Aide George. Before you buy. mbarry: I hope the stupidity of these comments here is not lost on you. You are NOT bandaiding when you outplay the players of your club. You are swinging with YOUR swing. Did you read Daly? I bet bighorn hasn't. Unless he is the one who reported here a couple months ago that Daly didn't know what he was talking about. Bighorn won a couple of majors and drives the ball 340, so ignore daly. George
So George, you think the grip he describes is a good one, with the left thumb rotated so far that it is no longer under the right hand? Who is stupid? You have admitted to not reading SLAP. I DID read Daly's book some years ago. Do you think we should model our swings on Daly? You can't seem to make up your mind who we should copy. Is it Daly, Ernie, Jack, Chi Chi, Tiger, Hogan... according to you, they are ALL Gravity Golfers. Does Daly really use a 10 finger grip? I didn't remember that being the case. How many other pros do? Do you think there is a reason that the majority of pros swing a particular way, and grip the club a particular way? Should you fix your slice just by strengthening your grip and bending your clubs upright, or should you try to fix the root cause? Which is more stupid? Bad habits are hard to break, and a bad grip is a very bad habit. If you don't fix it now, when you are a relative newby, it will be 10x harder to change in 10 years. But LIKE I SAID, fix the root cause for the compensating grip FIRST. Then you will be forced to fix the grip. Before you buy.
- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I've used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I've observed). Here's where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) If your left thumb is "below" the right hand, it sounds like you have gone to a 10 finger, or "baseball" grip. Or do you also still overlap? How many knuckles can you see on your left hand? Where do the V's point? The most common grip used by the pro's has 2 knuckles showing on the left hand, the left hand V pointed at the right ear, and the right hand V pointed at the right shoulder. This is a strong grip, but I take it, not as strong as you have. The grip is a very important fundamental, and worth fixing. If you have a bad grip, you don't WANT a good swing. But the first step is to fix the thing you are compensating for with the bad grip. I suspect it is an over-the-top outside in swing. Learn to swing inside out. You will start hooking like mad, and you'll adjust your grip on your own. Sorry, I just don't think you ARE Fred Couples, and I don't think he uses the grip you describe (with the left thumb "below" the right hand). Immediate scores mean nothing. Only long-term results matter. Or go follow Band-Aide George. Before you buy. mbarry: I hope the stupidity of these comments here is not lost on you. You are NOT bandaiding when you outplay the players of your club. You are swinging with YOUR swing. Did you read Daly? I bet bighorn hasn't. Unless he is the one who reported here a couple months ago that Daly didn't know what he was talking about. Bighorn won a couple of majors and drives the ball 340, so ignore daly. George So George, you think the grip he describes is a good one, with the left thumb rotated so far that it is no longer under the right hand?
Nope. I told him exactly the opposite: to keep the left thumb on the shaft inside the right palm fold. Who is stupid? You have admitted to not reading SLAP. I DID read Daly's book some years ago. Do you think we should model our swings on Daly?
Nope as to things John does that are well beyond the average man's range of motion and strength. I told him that John's discussion of his strong grip was worth reading for its comments on why he uses it. It is John's story, with which I agree and with which other strong-grip swingers games agree. You can't seem to make up your mind who we should copy. Is it Daly, Ernie, Jack, Chi Chi, Tiger, Hogan... according to you, they are ALL Gravity Golfers.
YUP, and YOUR lack of understanding of Gravity Golf is precisely why this is lost on you. Gravity golf is not an appearance of a certain shape. It is an explanation of great physical efficiency accomplished by subconscious mechanisms where wrong exertions have been eliminated. It can take many different physical APPEARANCES, the same as walking appears different in all people. Gotcha again, bh. A facile reading of ANYTHING -- Daly, Gravity Golf, or you name it, will ALWAYS come up short. For a post TODAY that addresses this reality about subconscious mechanisms, read jim 11/29 3:15 am, Re Swinging like an Ax Person. Does Daly really use a 10 finger grip? I didn't remember that being the case. How many other pros do? Do you think there is a reason that the majority of pros swing a particular way, and grip the club a particular way?
Yes; because they have found what fits their hands. I never addressed the 10 finger grip. Should you fix your slice just by strengthening your grip and bending your clubs upright, or should you try to fix the root cause? Which is more stupid?
So, Dr. Bill: John Daly, Fred Couples, Paul Azinger, Bernhard Langer, David Duval, Hank Kuehne, and scores of others are fixing their slices with bandaids. And apparently they are stupid for gripping the way they do. Please go to their next tour stop and offer your services to fix their slices. Tell them the root cause. Incidentally, you didn't tell me what IS the root cause of their slices. And we are waiting for you to post the scores for your majors. And minors. We are not talking a golfer or two, bh. But what do scores [two meanings: many, and their golf scores] of the world’s top golfers know/prove about anything? I find your comments totally incomprehensible, bh. Just beyond words. Bad habits are hard to break, and a bad grip is a very bad habit. If you don’t fix it now, when you are a relative newby, it will be 10x harder to change in 10 years. But LIKE I SAID, fix the root cause for the compensating grip FIRST. Then you will be forced to fix the grip.
It is precisely this kind of poison that Daly is talking about on page 7 (you said you read his book? It would appear you need remedial reading! Or maybe you didn’t believe him. Which posture do you prefer: inability to read, or a posture that Daly and company are wrong? I promise you, bh. you can’t win from either one! There is no third option. Again: either Daly is wrong, or you did not grasp what he wrote.) Intelligence, the way I describe it, is intellectual honesty. If this is difficult for you, they have logic courses that you can probably get very inexpensively at your local community college (seriously). And remedial reading is CERTAINly available from the same source, probably for free. For the benefit of those who missed the former post on this, I’ll quote him: "I see many ATHLETIC [my emphasis] amateurs struggle to play golf with a weak grip, mostly because they think it is something they HAVE to do to be good. Owing to this misconception, the typical "weak gripper" starts toying with his swing when his shots fly off line, instead of changing the way he holds the club. Before you know it, he does ten different things wrong. I’ve seen this happen a thousand times [as I have --GH speaking]. There are gas stations all over the country staffed by young men who insisted they could play with a weak grip. … I might add that there is a long list of great players who have come to the same conclusion I have." The entire quote and attention to this whole issue runs FOR 4+ PAGES from page 4 through page 9. Not lip service. Not "maybe". Nope, serious words. Again; tell us why his comments are bandaids. What is the root cause of John’s slice? Thank you. George
Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand)
If your left thumb is "below" the right hand, it sounds like you have gone to a 10 finger, or "baseball" grip. Or do you also still overlap? How many knuckles can you see on your left hand? Where do the V’s point? The most common grip used by the pro’s has 2 knuckles showing on the left hand, the left hand V pointed at the right ear, and the right hand V pointed at the right shoulder. This is a strong grip, but I take it, not as strong as you have. The grip is a very important fundamental, and worth fixing. If you have a bad grip, you don’t WANT a good swing. But the first step is to fix the thing you are compensating for with the bad grip. I suspect it is an over-the-top outside in swing. Learn to swing inside out. You will start hooking like mad, and you’ll adjust your grip on your own. Sorry, I just don’t think you ARE Fred Couples, and I don’t think he uses the grip you describe (with the left thumb "below" the right hand). Immediate scores mean nothing. Only long-term results matter. Or go follow Band-Aide George. Before you buy.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) If your left thumb is "below" the right hand, it sounds like you have gone to a 10 finger, or "baseball" grip. Or do you also still overlap? How many knuckles can you see on your left hand? Where do the V’s point? The most common grip used by the pro’s has 2 knuckles showing on the left hand, the left hand V pointed at the right ear, and the right hand V pointed at the right shoulder. This is a strong grip, but I take it, not as strong as you have. The grip is a very important fundamental, and worth fixing. If you have a bad grip, you don’t WANT a good swing. But the first step is to fix the thing you are compensating for with the bad grip. I suspect it is an over-the-top outside in swing. Learn to swing inside out. You will start hooking like mad, and you’ll adjust your grip on your own. Sorry, I just don’t think you ARE Fred Couples, and I don’t think he uses the grip you describe (with the left thumb "below" the right hand). Immediate scores mean nothing. Only long-term results matter. Or go follow Band-Aide George. Before you buy.
mbarry: I hope the stupidity of these comments here is not lost on you. You are NOT bandaiding when you outplay the players of your club. You are swinging with YOUR swing. Did you read Daly? I bet bighorn hasn’t. Unless he is the one who reported here a couple months ago that Daly didn’t know what he was talking about. Bighorn won a couple of majors and drives the ball 340, so ignore daly. George
Question: 1.Has anyone ever seen or used this type of grip?? 2.Do you think it is worth the inevitable slump to change ???(with the possibility of never getting back to where I am right now)
If it works for you stick with it…there is no such thing as a universally ‘correct’ grip. It sounds as though it may be causing you some difficulty around the green though….but stay with it, you just need more practice in that area! You may discover over time that a minor alteration will suit you better but don’t start fiddling……a better grip usually comes by accident, just wait for it to happen. In my view, for a hacker, tee to green performance is far more important in scoring than the short game. It is usually only single figure handicappers who gain anything by working to improve this. Don’t jeopardise your tee-to-green performance just for the sake of change to a supposedly ‘correct’ grip. david
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks George, I didnt really want to change, was really looking for feedback if a change MIGHT help. Didnt realize that some pro’s use a similar grip, I’ve never seen at the local muni. Maybe I just needed a little reassurance, a few so called "experts" that I’ve been paired up with have offered to "straighten me out" while I was in the middle of shooting an 80 or 81(no mulligans,putting out) to their 100+ if you counted all their strokes BTW, went out today on a slope 111 course and hit 10 fairways and 11 greens for a 79 which included 4 3putts, so its obvious where I need to improve. My chipping is also problematic, do you think there would be any merit in trying a weaker or maybe even a baseball grip for these finesse shots?? The strong grip does feel slightly awkward for anything other than a bump and run.
mbarry: : I think you need to experiment with hybrids between putting and full shot grips in your left hand especially to see what is most comfy and can produce the least manipulation of wrists and hands to deliver the club to the ball EXACTLY square to the target line. I fidget all the time, because my lie angle is not upright enough with my regular clubs for the best possible chip. I am considering bending a wedge to some 80 degrees or more to get the lie angle that will work the best for me. It probably will mean I’ll use as strong a grip as you do. INCIDENTALLY AND VERY IMPORTANT: the further back in your stance (as at your right toe for chipping) the ball, THE STRONGER your left hand needs to be simply due to the angle at which your left arm will fall from your shoulder when you hang it back there. So you use your natural arm orientation, not a contrived or artificial or book one. George Thanx for the feedback. P.S. Your technical post are always welcome as far as I’m concerned, George. They are alway concise and aptly worded, I just don’t see why some here have a problem.
Thank you. I appreciate that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In addition to my former post, this is such a serious subject my brame would not let it go: 1) Start of page 6 of John Daly’s book, not page 9. 2) If you are guilted by the perception that because you use a strong grip you must be an inferior golfer, you have it BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKWARDS. Your success is proof of what fits YOU, not someone’s handbook, or any other schlepping "top pro" or anyone else that PRETENDS to teach golf in books, magazines, TV or the range. YOUR GRIP is YOUR grip, the same as your girth is YOURs, the same as Trevino’s open stance is HIS, the same as Nicklaus flying elbow is HIS. Imagine Freddie trying to change his grip. Give me a loooooooooooooooooooooong break. PLEASE go to confession over this guilt trip. It is an insidious and extremely damaging "basic" – the weak grip. It is ok for SOME golfers. So is a size 42 extra long suit. Accept the success of your strong grip as evidence of what is right for you, if nothing else. Not my words, not anyone else; just the success of your shots. And do inspect those mentioned, as well as Hank Keuhne. Many others too. George Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) THAT’S TOO FAR DOWN. YOU HAD IT RIGHT WITH IT ALIGNED IN THE LIFELINE POCKET OF THE RIGHT HAND. Welcome to the Couples, Daly, Azinger, Duval, Langer club. GREAT DISCOVERY. Don’t ever let anyone talk you out of it! George Little more info. before everyone flames me here, I am down to a 12 hdcp and am better from tee to green than I am around the green. I can probably drop another 2 to 4 strokes around the green next year just from dedicating more time to the short game (which I plan to do) As far as ball-striking, I am routinely the longest and straightest in my circle of hacker friends and can keep up with the "players" at my local club on most days(usually getting beat around the green). Question: 1.Has anyone ever seen or used this type of grip?? AS ABOVE. LOOK AT PICS OF THESE GUYS CLOSE UP. 2.Do you think it is worth the inevitable slump to change ???(with the possibility of never getting back to where I am right now) DON’T YOU DARE CHANGE. READ PAGE 9 OF JOHN DALY’S BOOK. George
<snip NOT A CHANCE; THAT IS A DIFFERENT AREA OF GOLF TECHNIQUE, AND IT HAS ITS OWN PROBLEMS. GRIP IS NOT LIKELY TO BE ONE OF THEM, TO SAY NOTHING OF USING A DIFFERENT ONE THAN FOR SUCCESSFUL FULL SHOTS.
<snip ANYONE WHO OUTHITS THE PLAYERS AT HIS CLUB IS NOT A HACKER. A PUTTER MAYBE HE ISN’T, BUT HACKER? YOU KIDDING? THIS MAN IS A PLAYER IN HIS DEVELOPMENTAL INFANCY. EXPECT TO PLAY SUB PAR VERY SOON, MBARRY!
<snip RIGHT ON, DAVID. SUPPOSEDLY IS THE OPERATIVE WORD. IT IS THE LIE OF MAINSTREAM GOLF INSTRUCTION [weak grip] THAT CAUSES HIM THE GUILT HE EXPRESSES. HIS GRIP IS PROBABLY SUPREMELY CORRECT! And it has NOTHING to do with his around the green performance either. Period.
<snip George….please do not shout….you are loud enough already! 
david
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Question: 1.Has anyone ever seen or used this type of grip?? 2.Do you think it is worth the inevitable slump to change ???(with the possibility of never getting back to where I am right now) If it works for you stick with it…there is no such thing as a universally ‘correct’ grip. It sounds as though it may be causing you some difficulty around the green though….
NOT A CHANCE; THAT IS A DIFFERENT AREA OF GOLF TECHNIQUE, AND IT HAS ITS OWN PROBLEMS. GRIP IS NOT LIKELY TO BE ONE OF THEM, TO SAY NOTHING OF USING A DIFFERENT ONE THAN FOR SUCCESSFUL FULL SHOTS. but stay with it, you just need more practice in that area! You may discover over time that a minor alteration will suit you better but don’t start fiddling……a better grip usually comes by accident, just wait for it to happen. In my view, for a hacker, tee to green performance is far more important in scoring than the short game.
ANYONE WHO OUTHITS THE PLAYERS AT HIS CLUB IS NOT A HACKER. A PUTTER MAYBE HE ISN’T, BUT HACKER? YOU KIDDING? THIS MAN IS A PLAYER IN HIS DEVELOPMENTAL INFANCY. EXPECT TO PLAY SUB PAR VERY SOON, MBARRY! George It is usually only single figure handicappers who gain anything by working to improve this. Don’t jeopardise your tee-to-green performance just for the sake of change to a supposedly ‘correct’ grip. david
RIGHT ON, DAVID. SUPPOSEDLY IS THE OPERATIVE WORD. IT IS THE LIE OF MAINSTREAM GOLF INSTRUCTION [weak grip] THAT CAUSES HIM THE GUILT HE EXPRESSES. HIS GRIP IS PROBABLY SUPREMELY CORRECT! And it has NOTHING to do with his around the green performance either. Period. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
My chipping is also problematic, do you think there would be any merit in trying a weaker or maybe even a baseball grip for these finesse shots?? The strong grip does feel slightly awkward for anything other than a bump and run.
Don’t know if you’ve read Pelz or not but this is a key part of his prescription for the short game. There have been a few other contributors here who have said they’ve tried it with success. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Thanks George, I didnt really want to change, was really looking for feedback if a change MIGHT help. Didnt realize that some pro’s use a similar grip, I’ve never seen at the local muni. Maybe I just needed a little reassurance, a few so called "experts" that I’ve been paired up with have offered to "straighten me out" while I was in the middle of shooting an 80 or 81(no mulligans,putting out) to their 100+ if you counted all their strokes BTW, went out today on a slope 111 course and hit 10 fairways and 11 greens for a 79 which included 4 3putts, so its obvious where I need to improve. My chipping is also problematic, do you think there would be any merit in trying a weaker or maybe even a baseball grip for these finesse shots?? The strong grip does feel slightly awkward for anything other than a bump and run. Thanx for the feedback. P.S. Your technical post are always welcome as far as I’m concerned, George. They are alway concise and aptly worded, I just don’t see why some here have a problem. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In addition to my former post, this is such a serious subject my brame would not let it go: 1) Start of page 6 of John Daly’s book, not page 9. 2) If you are guilted by the perception that because you use a strong grip you must be an inferior golfer, you have it BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKWARDS. Your success is proof of what fits YOU, not someone’s handbook, or any other schlepping "top pro" or anyone else that PRETENDS to teach golf in books, magazines, TV or the range. YOUR GRIP is YOUR grip, the same as your girth is YOURs, the same as Trevino’s open stance is HIS, the same as Nicklaus flying elbow is HIS. Imagine Freddie trying to change his grip. Give me a loooooooooooooooooooooong break. PLEASE go to confession over this guilt trip. It is an insidious and extremely damaging "basic" – the weak grip. It is ok for SOME golfers. So is a size 42 extra long suit. Accept the success of your strong grip as evidence of what is right for you, if nothing else. Not my words, not anyone else; just the success of your shots. And do inspect those mentioned, as well as Hank Keuhne. Many others too. George Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) THAT’S TOO FAR DOWN. YOU HAD IT RIGHT WITH IT ALIGNED IN THE LIFELINE POCKET OF THE RIGHT HAND. Welcome to the Couples, Daly, Azinger, Duval, Langer club. GREAT DISCOVERY. Don’t ever let anyone talk you out of it! George Little more info. before everyone flames me here, I am down to a 12 hdcp and am better from tee to green than I am around the green. I can probably drop another 2 to 4 strokes around the green next year just from dedicating more time to the short game (which I plan to do) As far as ball-striking, I am routinely the longest and straightest in my circle of hacker friends and can keep up with the "players" at my local club on most days(usually getting beat around the green). Question: 1.Has anyone ever seen or used this type of grip?? AS ABOVE. LOOK AT PICS OF THESE GUYS CLOSE UP. 2.Do you think it is worth the inevitable slump to change ???(with the possibility of never getting back to where I am right now) DON’T YOU DARE CHANGE. READ PAGE 9 OF JOHN DALY’S BOOK. George
Yes, learn to chip with a neutral grip. Chipping is helped by taking the hands out of the shot.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks George, I didnt really want to change, was really looking for feedback if a change MIGHT help. Didnt realize that some pro’s use a similar grip, I’ve never seen at the local muni. Maybe I just needed a little reassurance, a few so called "experts" that I’ve been paired up with have offered to "straighten me out" while I was in the middle of shooting an 80 or 81(no mulligans,putting out) to their 100+ if you counted all their strokes BTW, went out today on a slope 111 course and hit 10 fairways and 11 greens for a 79 which included 4 3putts, so its obvious where I need to improve. My chipping is also problematic, do you think there would be any merit in trying a weaker or maybe even a baseball grip for these finesse shots?? The strong grip does feel slightly awkward for anything other than a bump and run. Thanx for the feedback. P.S. Your technical post are always welcome as far as I’m concerned, George. They are alway concise and aptly worded, I just don’t see why some here have a problem. In addition to my former post, this is such a serious subject my brame would not let it go: 1) Start of page 6 of John Daly’s book, not page 9. 2) If you are guilted by the perception that because you use a strong grip you must be an inferior golfer, you have it BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKWARDS. Your success is proof of what fits YOU, not someone’s handbook, or any other schlepping "top pro" or anyone else that PRETENDS to teach golf in books, magazines, TV or the range. YOUR GRIP is YOUR grip, the same as your girth is YOURs, the same as Trevino’s open stance is HIS, the same as Nicklaus flying elbow is HIS. Imagine Freddie trying to change his grip. Give me a loooooooooooooooooooooong break. PLEASE go to confession over this guilt trip. It is an insidious and extremely damaging "basic" – the weak grip. It is ok for SOME golfers. So is a size 42 extra long suit. Accept the success of your strong grip as evidence of what is right for you, if nothing else. Not my words, not anyone else; just the success of your shots. And do inspect those mentioned, as well as Hank Keuhne. Many others too. George Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) THAT’S TOO FAR DOWN. YOU HAD IT RIGHT WITH IT ALIGNED IN THE LIFELINE POCKET OF THE RIGHT HAND. Welcome to the Couples, Daly, Azinger, Duval, Langer club. GREAT DISCOVERY. Don’t ever let anyone talk you out of it! George Little more info. before everyone flames me here, I am down to a 12 hdcp and am better from tee to green than I am around the green. I can probably drop another 2 to 4 strokes around the green next year just from dedicating more time to the short game (which I plan to do) As far as ball-striking, I am routinely the longest and straightest in my circle of hacker friends and can keep up with the "players" at my local club on most days(usually getting beat around the green). Question: 1.Has anyone ever seen or used this type of grip?? AS ABOVE. LOOK AT PICS OF THESE GUYS CLOSE UP. 2.Do you think it is worth the inevitable slump to change ???(with the possibility of never getting back to where I am right now) DON’T YOU DARE CHANGE. READ PAGE 9 OF JOHN DALY’S BOOK. George
In addition to my former post, this is such a serious subject my brame would not let it go: 1) Start of page 6 of John Daly’s book, not page 9. 2) If you are guilted by the perception that because you use a strong grip you must be an inferior golfer, you have it BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKWARDS. Your success is proof of what fits YOU, not someone’s handbook, or any other schlepping "top pro" or anyone else that PRETENDS to teach golf in books, magazines, TV or the range. YOUR GRIP is YOUR grip, the same as your girth is YOURs, the same as Trevino’s open stance is HIS, the same as Nicklaus flying elbow is HIS. Imagine Freddie trying to change his grip. Give me a loooooooooooooooooooooong break. PLEASE go to confession over this guilt trip. It is an insidious and extremely damaging "basic" – the weak grip. It is ok for SOME golfers. So is a size 42 extra long suit. Accept the success of your strong grip as evidence of what is right for you, if nothing else. Not my words, not anyone else; just the success of your shots. And do inspect those mentioned, as well as Hank Keuhne. Many others too. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) THAT’S TOO FAR DOWN. YOU HAD IT RIGHT WITH IT ALIGNED IN THE LIFELINE POCKET OF THE RIGHT HAND. Welcome to the Couples, Daly, Azinger, Duval, Langer club. GREAT DISCOVERY. Don’t ever let anyone talk you out of it! George Little more info. before everyone flames me here, I am down to a 12 hdcp and am better from tee to green than I am around the green. I can probably drop another 2 to 4 strokes around the green next year just from dedicating more time to the short game (which I plan to do) As far as ball-striking, I am routinely the longest and straightest in my circle of hacker friends and can keep up with the "players" at my local club on most days(usually getting beat around the green). Question: 1.Has anyone ever seen or used this type of grip?? AS ABOVE. LOOK AT PICS OF THESE GUYS CLOSE UP. 2.Do you think it is worth the inevitable slump to change ???(with the possibility of never getting back to where I am right now) DON’T YOU DARE CHANGE. READ PAGE 9 OF JOHN DALY’S BOOK. George
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you saying your grip is stronger than Couples? Where is your left thumb … below the right hand? And you use it around the greens, too? I’ve got to see this … do you have a picture by chance? Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand)
THAT’S TOO FAR DOWN. YOU HAD IT RIGHT WITH IT ALIGNED IN THE LIFELINE POCKET OF THE RIGHT HAND. Welcome to the Couples, Daly, Azinger, Duval, Langer club. GREAT DISCOVERY. Don’t ever let anyone talk you out of it! George Little more info. before everyone flames me here, I am down to a 12 hdcp and am better from tee to green than I am around the green. I can probably drop another 2 to 4 strokes around the green next year just from dedicating more time to the short game (which I plan to do) As far as ball-striking, I am routinely the longest and straightest in my circle of hacker friends and can keep up with the "players" at my local club on most days(usually getting beat around the green). Question: 1.Has anyone ever seen or used this type of grip?? AS
ABOVE. LOOK AT PICS OF THESE GUYS CLOSE UP. 2.Do you think it is worth the inevitable slump to change ???(with the possibility of never getting back to where I am right now) DON’T YOU DARE CHANGE. READ PAGE 9 OF JOHN DALY’S BOOK.
George
Are you saying your grip is stronger than Couples? Where is your left thumb … below the right hand? And you use it around the greens, too? I’ve got to see this … do you have a picture by chance? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) Little more info. before everyone flames me here, I am down to a 12 hdcp and am better from tee to green than I am around the green. I can probably drop another 2 to 4 strokes around the green next year just from dedicating more time to the short game (which I plan to do) As far as ball-striking, I am routinely the longest and straightest in my circle of hacker friends and can keep up with the "players" at my local club on most days(usually getting beat around the green). Question: 1.Has anyone ever seen or used this type of grip?? 2.Do you think it is worth the inevitable slump to change ???(with the possibility of never getting back to where I am right now)
Looking for a little advice. Ever since I started playing (3 years ago) I’ve used what would seem to be an ultra-strong grip (compared to others I’ve observed). Here’s where it gets weird, the left hand is so strong that the thumb rests way down into the right palm. It felt so unnatural that I started dropping the left thumb down below the right hand (kinda rests against the bootom of the right hand) Little more info. before everyone flames me here, I am down to a 12 hdcp and am better from tee to green than I am around the green. I can probably drop another 2 to 4 strokes around the green next year just from dedicating more time to the short game (which I plan to do) As far as ball-striking, I am routinely the longest and straightest in my circle of hacker friends and can keep up with the "players" at my local club on most days(usually getting beat around the green). Question: 1.Has anyone ever seen or used this type of grip?? 2.Do you think it is worth the inevitable slump to change ???(with the possibility of never getting back to where I am right now)