Just a survey to see if you carry a hybrid club and which loft is it?
Just a survey to see if you carry a hybrid club and which loft is it?
18* Wilson. Great for out of the rough. Carry about 200 yds.
Just a survey to see if you carry a hybrid club and which loft is it?
I carry two. 18 degree Adams i Wood, equivilant to a 5 wood or 2 iron, carry 215 when I nail it, great off the tee, turf and tight lies. A 21 degree i Wood, equivilant to a 7 wood or 3 iron, carry 195 when I nail it. I love both clubs and the feel of them are great. They both have bi-matrix shafts, which are steel shafts with the last 4 or 5 inches graphite. You can get a new one on the internet for $50.
Just a survey to see if you carry a hybrid club and which loft is it?
No.
Just a survey to see if you carry a hybrid club and which loft is it?
Yes… A Mizuno Fli-Hi utility iron 18* with a flighted rifle shaft. — Cheers- Jeff Setaro jasetaro <at mags.net http://people.mags.net/jasetaro/ PGP Key IDs DH/DSS: 0×5D41429D RSA: 0×599D2A99 New RSA: 0xA19EBD34
Just a survey to see if you carry a hybrid club and which loft is it?
Adams i-wood…21*….3 iron/7 wood distance, but with more height and versatility. — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson
Just a survey to see if you carry a hybrid club and which loft is it?
21 deg Snake Eyes QuickStrike. Kenny — Kenny Stultz – Troll and SPAM intolerant RSG Rollcall: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=stultzk "Golf is the only sport where a precise knowledge of the Rules can earn one a reputation for poor sportsmanship"
Just a survey to see if you carry a hybrid club and which loft is it?
Right now I’m carrying 26, 22, and 18 degree Quick Strikes. They are serving temporarily as my fairway woods. New woods are under construction. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
you bet, love ‘em. Snake Eyes Quick Strike – in the 10, 14, 20, and 34
I think it might. I don’t advocate hitting a tire or a bag.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But if you hit it against a tire, won’t that teach you to not follow through with your swing?
But if you hit it against a tire, won’t that teach you to not follow through with your swing?
I am curious – hoping that one of the swing gurus can answer this question: Does delaying the uncocking of the wrist create a steeper angle of approach?
No. It creates more lag at impact.
I am curious – hoping that one of the swing gurus can answer this question: Does delaying the uncocking of the wrist create a steeper angle of
approach?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am working on hitting down on the ball rather than sweep it. My left wrist breaks down and I tend to scoop the ball and it would seem to me that Any comments or suggestions, specifically to work on stopping the left wrist break down issue? Thanks, Steve …. As for stopping left wrist breakdown, my experience has been that ( for full swings) the flat left wrist is more a function of my wrists being passive and relaxed rather than trying to ‘hold’ the flat left wrist. A flat left wrist is created from clubhead lag and lag pressure points on the hands that feel the weight of the clubhead. Start with chips and work up toward a full swing, feeling the clubhead lag. Laville can give you the details on this better than I can. Also, don’t worry too much about ‘hitting down on the ball’. Hit the inside aft quadrant of the ball with a relaxed, flat left wrist and you will soon be striking the ball with an appropriate (not exaggerated) downward, divot p roducing blow. Best, Bill-OB Steve, I think you will benefit from this advice on the lag of the clubhhead. With a good grip, a proper lag will straighten what needs to be straightened at impact automatically. And it is easier to learn it on the shorter clubs. Puttster
I’d argue that lag will ‘maintain’ a flat left wrist that was already created by a folding / bending of the right wrist on the backswing. But…maybe I am splitting hairs.
I am working on hitting down on the ball rather than sweep it. My left wrist breaks down and I tend to scoop the ball and it would seem to me that Any comments or suggestions, specifically to work on stopping the left wrist break down issue? Thanks, Steve
…. As for stopping left wrist breakdown, my experience has been that ( for full – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – swings) the flat left wrist is more a function of my wrists being passive and relaxed rather than trying to ‘hold’ the flat left wrist. A flat left wrist is created from clubhead lag and lag pressure points on the hands that feel the weight of the clubhead. Start with chips and work up toward a full swing, feeling the clubhead lag. Laville can give you the details on this better than I can. Also, don’t worry too much about ‘hitting down on the ball’. Hit the inside aft quadrant of the ball with a relaxed, flat left wrist and you will soon be striking the ball with an appropriate (not exaggerated) downward, divot p roducing blow. Best, Bill-OB
Steve, I think you will benefit from this advice on the lag of the clubhhead. With a good grip, a proper lag will straighten what needs to be straightened at impact automatically. And it is easier to learn it on the shorter clubs. Puttster
I am working on hitting down on the ball rather than sweep it. My left wrist breaks down and I tend to scoop the ball and it would seem to me that this would help. One thing I have tried is to place a 2 x 4 behind the ball to increase the angle of approach. On a flat lie with no tee, how close to the ball should I expect to place the 2 x 4 without clipping it with a 5 iron? Right now I am about 9 or 10 inches behind beforeI clip the board which seems a lot farther behind than I would have guessed. Any comments or suggestions, specifically to work on stopping the left wrist break down issue? Thanks, Steve
Get a hitting bag or hit against an old tire. I’m not sure anything teaches you a good impact position faster than beating an old club against a tire. A hitting bag works almost as well, but it’s easier on the hands so you don’t learn to stop screwing it up quite as fast. 8^)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, try this.. put a Tee in the ground about one inch in front of the ball, facing your target and at impact have your club dig the Tee out of the ground..and with practice you will get more out of this drill than what you are doing now… " Live long and prosper " Thanks for the tip but I have a 4 foot by 4 foot carpeted platform in my backyard hitting into a net. I built it specifically so I do not destroy the grass by taking divots. I guess I could put the ball on a rubber tee and place something in front of it like a short inverted tee and try to clip the short tee. Or just sacrifice the grass for a while… It’s just a thought, but if you were to cut a hole in the carpet — a couple inches in diameter — and fill it with modling clay, you could stick tees in there all day long without destroying the lawn. Eliyahu I have a rubber tee I bought from a driving range and use that. I see what you are saying and could use a few inches of dirt or sand and place that just past the rubber tee in a shallow planting tray. Good idea. Steve Steve, All of the above ideas sound fine, but I am afraid you may be setting yourself up for a backyard accident. I am not sure that hitting off a carpeted (plywood I am assuming) platform into a planting tray is going to give you the results you are after. I suggest getting an impact bag (or a duffel bag full of laundry) and hitting into it. Focus on the flat left wrist and keep your hands ahead of the clubhead as you strike the bag. Mentally focus on a ‘downward and outward’ stroke. Should do the trick. Otherwise, wait till spring and hit off real grass. If you can’t wait until spring then fill the bottom of a plastic kiddy swimming pool with 6" of sand and whack away. JMHO Bill-OB Backyard accident? I almost always hit off a rubber tee so hitting the platform is not an issue. I have been hitting into the net the last 2 years and so far no damage to myself or anything around. It helps I have a 250 acre heavily wooded city park directly behind me. I am guessing of the thousands of balls I have hit, maybe 10 or 15 made the woods, almost all from teeing a ball really high and getting under it a tad. Steve I was referring to you trying to hit down through the ball into a ’shallow planting tray’. Sounds like you have all the info you need. Just trying to help. Best of luck. Bill-OB
Thanks to all of RSG for the ideas and suggestions. Steve
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, try this.. put a Tee in the ground about one inch in front of the ball, facing your target and at impact have your club dig the Tee out of the ground..and with practice you will get more out of this drill than what you are doing now… " Live long and prosper " Thanks for the tip but I have a 4 foot by 4 foot carpeted platform in my backyard hitting into a net. I built it specifically so I do not destroy the grass by taking divots. I guess I could put the ball on a rubber tee and place something in front of it like a short inverted tee and try to clip the short tee. Or just sacrifice the grass for a while… It’s just a thought, but if you were to cut a hole in the carpet — a couple inches in diameter — and fill it with modling clay, you could stick tees in there all day long without destroying the lawn. Eliyahu I have a rubber tee I bought from a driving range and use that. I see what you are saying and could use a few inches of dirt or sand and place that just past the rubber tee in a shallow planting tray. Good idea. Steve Steve, All of the above ideas sound fine, but I am afraid you may be setting yourself up for a backyard accident. I am not sure that hitting off a carpeted (plywood I am assuming) platform into a planting tray is going to give you the results you are after. I suggest getting an impact bag (or a duffel bag full of laundry) and hitting into it. Focus on the flat left wrist and keep your hands ahead of the clubhead as you strike the bag. Mentally focus on a ‘downward and outward’ stroke. Should do the trick. Otherwise, wait till spring and hit off real grass. If you can’t wait until spring then fill the bottom of a plastic kiddy swimming pool with 6" of sand and whack away. JMHO Bill-OB Backyard accident? I almost always hit off a rubber tee so hitting the platform is not an issue. I have been hitting into the net the last 2 years and so far no damage to myself or anything around. It helps I have a 250 acre heavily wooded city park directly behind me. I am guessing of the thousands of balls I have hit, maybe 10 or 15 made the woods, almost all from teeing a ball really high and getting under it a tad. Steve
I was referring to you trying to hit down through the ball into a ’shallow planting tray’. Sounds like you have all the info you need. Just trying to help. Best of luck. Bill-OB
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, try this.. put a Tee in the ground about one inch in front of the ball, facing your target and at impact have your club dig the Tee out of the ground..and with practice you will get more out of this drill than what you are doing now… " Live long and prosper " Thanks for the tip but I have a 4 foot by 4 foot carpeted platform in my backyard hitting into a net. I built it specifically so I do not destroy the grass by taking divots. I guess I could put the ball on a rubber tee and place something in front of it like a short inverted tee and try to clip the short tee. Or just sacrifice the grass for a while… It’s just a thought, but if you were to cut a hole in the carpet — a couple inches in diameter — and fill it with modling clay, you could stick tees in there all day long without destroying the lawn. Eliyahu I have a rubber tee I bought from a driving range and use that. I see what you are saying and could use a few inches of dirt or sand and place that just past the rubber tee in a shallow planting tray. Good idea. Steve Steve, All of the above ideas sound fine, but I am afraid you may be setting yourself up for a backyard accident. I am not sure that hitting off a carpeted (plywood I am assuming) platform into a planting tray is going to give you the results you are after. I suggest getting an impact bag (or a duffel bag full of laundry) and hitting into it. Focus on the flat left wrist and keep your hands ahead of the clubhead as you strike the bag. Mentally focus on a ‘downward and outward’ stroke. Should do the trick. Otherwise, wait till spring and hit off real grass. If you can’t wait until spring then fill the bottom of a plastic kiddy swimming pool with 6" of sand and whack away. JMHO Bill-OB
Backyard accident? I almost always hit off a rubber tee so hitting the platform is not an issue. I have been hitting into the net the last 2 years and so far no damage to myself or anything around. It helps I have a 250 acre heavily wooded city park directly behind me. I am guessing of the thousands of balls I have hit, maybe 10 or 15 made the woods, almost all from teeing a ball really high and getting under it a tad. Steve
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, try this.. put a Tee in the ground about one inch in front of the ball, facing your target and at impact have your club dig the Tee out of the ground..and with practice you will get more out of this drill than what you are doing now… " Live long and prosper " Thanks for the tip but I have a 4 foot by 4 foot carpeted platform in my backyard hitting into a net. I built it specifically so I do not destroy the grass by taking divots. I guess I could put the ball on a rubber tee and place something in front of it like a short inverted tee and try to clip the short tee. Or just sacrifice the grass for a while… It’s just a thought, but if you were to cut a hole in the carpet — a couple inches in diameter — and fill it with modling clay, you could stick tees in there all day long without destroying the lawn. Eliyahu I have a rubber tee I bought from a driving range and use that. I see what you are saying and could use a few inches of dirt or sand and place that just past the rubber tee in a shallow planting tray. Good idea. Steve
Steve, All of the above ideas sound fine, but I am afraid you may be setting yourself up for a backyard accident. I am not sure that hitting off a carpeted (plywood I am assuming) platform into a planting tray is going to give you the results you are after. I suggest getting an impact bag (or a duffel bag full of laundry) and hitting into it. Focus on the flat left wrist and keep your hands ahead of the clubhead as you strike the bag. Mentally focus on a ‘downward and outward’ stroke. Should do the trick. Otherwise, wait till spring and hit off real grass. If you can’t wait until spring then fill the bottom of a plastic kiddy swimming pool with 6" of sand and whack away. JMHO Bill-OB
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, try this.. put a Tee in the ground about one inch in front of the ball, facing your target and at impact have your club dig the Tee out of the ground..and with practice you will get more out of this drill than what you are doing now… " Live long and prosper " Thanks for the tip but I have a 4 foot by 4 foot carpeted platform in my backyard hitting into a net. I built it specifically so I do not destroy the grass by taking divots. I guess I could put the ball on a rubber tee and place something in front of it like a short inverted tee and try to clip the short tee. Or just sacrifice the grass for a while…
It’s just a thought, but if you were to cut a hole in the carpet — a couple inches in diameter — and fill it with modling clay, you could stick tees in there all day long without destroying the lawn. Eliyahu
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, try this.. put a Tee in the ground about one inch in front of the ball, facing your target and at impact have your club dig the Tee out of the ground..and with practice you will get more out of this drill than what you are doing now… " Live long and prosper " Thanks for the tip but I have a 4 foot by 4 foot carpeted platform in my backyard hitting into a net. I built it specifically so I do not destroy the grass by taking divots. I guess I could put the ball on a rubber tee and place something in front of it like a short inverted tee and try to clip the short tee. Or just sacrifice the grass for a while… It’s just a thought, but if you were to cut a hole in the carpet — a couple inches in diameter — and fill it with modling clay, you could stick tees in there all day long without destroying the lawn. Eliyahu
I have a rubber tee I bought from a driving range and use that. I see what you are saying and could use a few inches of dirt or sand and place that just past the rubber tee in a shallow planting tray. Good idea. Steve
Steve, there’s nothing you can do about the wrist. Some people are just born limp wristed, and all the denying, disguising, and smokescreens won’t change that.
Steve, try this.. put a Tee in the ground about one inch in front of the ball, facing your target and at impact have your club dig the Tee out of the ground..and with practice you will get more out of this drill than what you are doing now… " Live long and prosper "
Thanks for the tip but I have a 4 foot by 4 foot carpeted platform in my backyard hitting into a net. I built it specifically so I do not destroy the grass by taking divots. I guess I could put the ball on a rubber tee and place something in front of it like a short inverted tee and try to clip the short tee. Or just sacrifice the grass for a while… Steve
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am working on hitting down on the ball rather than sweep it. My left wrist breaks down and I tend to scoop the ball and it would seem to me that this would help. One thing I have tried is to place a 2 x 4 behind the ball to increase the angle of approach. On a flat lie with no tee, how close to the ball should I expect to place the 2 x 4 without clipping it with a 5 iron? Right now I am about 9 or 10 inches behind beforeI clip the board which seems a lot farther behind than I would have guessed. Any comments or suggestions, specifically to work on stopping the left wrist break down issue? Thanks, Steve Don’t put a 2 x 4 behind the ball. What you want is a shallow angle of approach with the left wrist flat and right wrist folded back. You want a shallow angle of approach, while hitting down with the short clubs, and sweeping with the long clubs. If your left wrist is breaking down, your plane is wrong and you are steep. Put a 2 x 4 outside the ball with *just* enough clearance for your iron to swing through the ball. For example, at set-up with the iron soled behind the ball, put the 2 x 4 about 1/2" outside the toe of the club. In this fashion, the only way you’ll hit the ball clean ( without hitting the board ) is with a shallow aproach from inside. After failing for a while and hitting the board, you’ll learn to get an inside approach with a shallow angle. Either that or you’ll quit golf. Remember at impact: ~~ shallow angle from inside ~~ flat left wrist ~~ folded back right wrist. I set up with strong left hand grip, so my left hand at address is cupped. I had always thought that I was supposed to let it remain cupped throughout the swing and through impact.I also always thought that the left wrist only cocked up and down, not hinged left and right.
The folding back of the right wrist will eliminate the cupped left wrist in the swing.
A flat left wrist is created from clubhead lag and lag pressure points on the hands that feel the weight of the clubhead. Start with chips and work up toward a full swing, feeling the clubhead lag. Laville can give you the details on this better than I can.
No I can’t, you did a good job! 
David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am working on hitting down on the ball rather than sweep it. My left wrist breaks down and I tend to scoop the ball and it would seem to me that this would help. One thing I have tried is to place a 2 x 4 behind the ball to increase the angle of approach. On a flat lie with no tee, how close to the ball should I expect to place the 2 x 4 without clipping it with a 5 iron? Right now I am about 9 or 10 inches behind beforeI clip the board which seems a lot farther behind than I would have guessed. Any comments or suggestions, specifically to work on stopping the left wrist break down issue? Thanks, Steve Don’t put a 2 x 4 behind the ball. What you want is a shallow angle of approach with the left wrist flat and right wrist folded back. You want a shallow angle of approach, while hitting down with the short clubs, and sweeping with the long clubs. If your left wrist is breaking down, your plane is wrong and you are steep. Put a 2 x 4 outside the ball with *just* enough clearance for your iron to swing through the ball. For example, at set-up with the iron soled behind the ball, put the 2 x 4 about 1/2" outside the toe of the club. In this fashion, the only way you’ll hit the ball clean ( without hitting the board ) is with a shallow aproach from inside. After failing for a while and hitting the board, you’ll learn to get an inside approach with a shallow angle. Either that or you’ll quit golf. Remember at impact: ~~ shallow angle from inside ~~ flat left wrist ~~ folded back right wrist.
I set up with strong left hand grip, so my left hand at address is cupped. I had always thought that I was supposed to let it remain cupped throughout the swing and through impact.I also always thought that the left wrist only cocked up and down, not hinged left and right. Question to David Laville. What kind of distances and consistency can you achieve with the type of swing you teach? I understand it is more rotational, not an arm swing? I might finally go for lessons and would like to know the pros and cons of the different types of swings: body, arm, rotational, etc. Thx
Steve, try this.. put a Tee in the ground about one inch in front of the ball, facing your target and at impact have your club dig the Tee out of the ground..and with practice you will get more out of this drill than what you are doing now… " Live long and prosper "
Someone once suggested that you hit balls while imagining a rope stretched about 4 or 5 feet off the ground about 10 feet in front of you (distances are approximate, just to give the idea). The idea is to think about hitting the ball under the rope (without changing your normal ball position or follow thru like you would for a knockdown shot). I’ve worked on this occasionally and always found that to be a useful image and drill. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am working on hitting down on the ball rather than sweep it. My left wrist breaks down and I tend to scoop the ball and it would seem to me that this would help. One thing I have tried is to place a 2 x 4 behind the ball to increase the angle of approach. On a flat lie with no tee, how close to the ball should I expect to place the 2 x 4 without clipping it with a 5 iron? Right now I am about 9 or 10 inches behind beforeI clip the board which seems a lot farther behind than I would have guessed. Any comments or suggestions, specifically to work on stopping the left wrist break down issue? Thanks, Steve
For example, at set-up with the iron soled behind the ball, put the 2 x 4 about 1/2" outside the toe of the club. In this fashion, the only way you’ll hit the ball clean ( without hitting the board ) is with a shallow aproach from inside.
My instructor did exactly this drill with me, but he used a cardboard box which a set of clubs had been shipped in. That way, if I hit the box, there was no damage to the club. I hit the box a lot. -b
For example, at set-up with the iron soled behind the ball, put the 2 x 4 about 1/2" outside the toe of the club. In this fashion, the only way you’ll hit the ball clean ( without hitting the board ) is with a shallow aproach from inside. My instructor did exactly this drill with me, but he used a cardboard box which a set of clubs had been shipped in. That way, if I hit the box, there was no damage to the club. I hit the box a lot. -b
Yes, you’ll hit the board for a while. But all of a sudden, you’ll figure it out. dropping inside. It is a very liberating experience for a chronic Over The Topper. It’ll also get you into the position of the hands leading the clubhead through impact. Much better than Mike’s headcover drill! ( smiley face).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am working on hitting down on the ball rather than sweep it. My left wrist breaks down and I tend to scoop the ball and it would seem to me that this would help. One thing I have tried is to place a 2 x 4 behind the ball to increase the angle of approach. On a flat lie with no tee, how close to the ball should I expect to place the 2 x 4 without clipping it with a 5 iron? Right now I am about 9 or 10 inches behind beforeI clip the board which seems a lot farther behind than I would have guessed. Any comments or suggestions, specifically to work on stopping the left wrist break down issue? Thanks, Steve
I could be misunderstaning your post, but it sounds like you are talking about your ‘angle of attack’ rather than the ‘angle of approach’. As for the distance behind the ball, it depends on your height, posture and the shaft plane you establish at setup/impact fix. 10 inches might be fine. I admit that I have never tried this experiment so I am just guessing. The ideas of spanking a 2×4 square with a 5 iron doesn’t appeal to me. ( I have placed one outside my ball and parallel to the target line to stop an oot swing, but that is usually just a glancing blow when mis-hit) As for stopping left wrist breakdown, my experience has been that ( for full swings) the flat left wrist is more a function of my wrists being passive and relaxed rather than trying to ‘hold’ the flat left wrist. A flat left wrist is created from clubhead lag and lag pressure points on the hands that feel the weight of the clubhead. Start with chips and work up toward a full swing, feeling the clubhead lag. Laville can give you the details on this better than I can. Also, don’t worry too much about ‘hitting down on the ball’. Hit the inside aft quadrant of the ball with a relaxed, flat left wrist and you will soon be striking the ball with an appropriate (not exaggerated) downward, divot p roducing blow. Best, Bill-OB
I am working on hitting down on the ball rather than sweep it. My left wrist breaks down and I tend to scoop the ball and it would seem to me that this would help. One thing I have tried is to place a 2 x 4 behind the ball to increase the angle of approach. On a flat lie with no tee, how close to the ball should I expect to place the 2 x 4 without clipping it with a 5 iron? Right now I am about 9 or 10 inches behind beforeI clip the board which seems a lot farther behind than I would have guessed. Any comments or suggestions, specifically to work on stopping the left wrist break down issue? Thanks, Steve
I am working on hitting down on the ball rather than sweep it. My left wrist breaks down and I tend to scoop the ball and it would seem to me that this would help. One thing I have tried is to place a 2 x 4 behind the ball to increase the angle of approach. On a flat lie with no tee, how close to the ball should I expect to place the 2 x 4 without clipping it with a 5 iron? Right now I am about 9 or 10 inches behind beforeI clip the board which seems a lot farther behind than I would have guessed. Any comments or suggestions, specifically to work on stopping the left wrist break down issue? Thanks, Steve
Don’t put a 2 x 4 behind the ball. What you want is a shallow angle of approach with the left wrist flat and right wrist folded back. You want a shallow angle of approach, while hitting down with the short clubs, and sweeping with the long clubs. If your left wrist is breaking down, your plane is wrong and you are steep. Put a 2 x 4 outside the ball with *just* enough clearance for your iron to swing through the ball. For example, at set-up with the iron soled behind the ball, put the 2 x 4 about 1/2" outside the toe of the club. In this fashion, the only way you’ll hit the ball clean ( without hitting the board ) is with a shallow aproach from inside. After failing for a while and hitting the board, you’ll learn to get an inside approach with a shallow angle. Either that or you’ll quit golf. Remember at impact: ~~ shallow angle from inside ~~ flat left wrist ~~ folded back right wrist.
Okay. I got a 7 Iron by ProSelect with a cavity back. It was my fisr club and I practiced with it almost every day. (iv been practicing on the range for 3 weeks now, not played a round yet) As I got a better swing, I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs. I didnt wana get a mixed set of Irons, so it took longer than normal. Evntualy I found a full set of clubs by….. Herman Barron?? (who the heck?. who made the clubs and are they ay good?) I have no idea the quality of the clubs. But, the face is solid and not Cavity. Iv taken them to the range and tried out the different clubs and done really well. No slices, and I hit the sweet spot squair on pretty much 90% of the time. Okay, they are a little heavy, but I will get used to that as I use them more. Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Whats the differenece? I was told that Cavity back clubs are more "forgiving" if you dont strike the sweetspot. But they arnt as accurate as the solid ones. They are more beginner – amature – advanced clubs….
I’d stick with what you have right now….at least for the next 6-12 months. By that time you’ll figure out how much you want to play this game. You may want to also take a lesson or two along the way and ask the opinion of the instructor (about your clubs). Then I would go to a driving range that also sells clubs and ask to try out some of their irons before you buy….then you can compare the sets side-by-side. Make your own decision based upon how you hit them, not based upon anything you read here or elsewhere. I learned to play with forged blade irons and think it not only added to my enjoyment of the game (that feeling of a solid hit was indescribable) but also my progress as a golfer. I later switched to cavity backs (2 different sets) because everyone told me I would play better. They were wrong, and I switched back to forged. Others will tell you an opposite story….we’re all different with our own preferences, so this is one you should decide on your own based upon performance of the clubs in your hands…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay. I got a 7 Iron by ProSelect with a cavity back. It was my fisr club and I practiced with it almost every day. (iv been practicing on the range for 3 weeks now, not played a round yet) As I got a better swing, I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs. I didnt wana get a mixed set of Irons, so it took longer than normal. Evntualy I found a full set of clubs by….. Herman Barron?? (who the heck?. who made the clubs and are they ay good?) I have no idea the quality of the clubs. But, the face is solid and not Cavity. Iv taken them to the range and tried out the different clubs and done really well. No slices, and I hit the sweet spot squair on pretty much 90% of the time. Okay, they are a little heavy, but I will get used to that as I use them more. Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Whats the differenece? I was told that Cavity back clubs are more "forgiving" if you dont strike the sweetspot. But they arnt as accurate as the solid ones. They are more beginner – amature – advanced clubs….
Cavity backs are lighter so they are easier to swing. Then when you get your swing muscles stronger, you can square the face faster and cure your slice. It won’t help a hook though because cavity backs have a draw bias built in to them. The only way to cure the hook is to change the lie and that requires bending the shaft so it has a slice bias built in to it. But then you need to worry about too much spin like Davis Love did in the Presidents club, but that’s another problem all together……
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay. I got a 7 Iron by ProSelect with a cavity back. It was my fisr club and I practiced with it almost every day. (iv been practicing on the range for 3 weeks now, not played a round yet) As I got a better swing, I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs. I didnt wana get a mixed set of Irons, so it took longer than normal. Evntualy I found a full set of clubs by….. Herman Barron?? (who the heck?. who made the clubs and are they ay good?) I have no idea the quality of the clubs. But, the face is solid and not Cavity. Iv taken them to the range and tried out the different clubs and done really well. No slices, and I hit the sweet spot squair on pretty much 90% of the time. Okay, they are a little heavy, but I will get used to that as I use them more. Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Whats the differenece? I was told that Cavity back clubs are more "forgiving" if you dont strike the sweetspot. But they arnt as accurate as the solid ones. They are more beginner – amature – advanced clubs….
Cavity backs are lighter so they are easier to swing.
This, actually, turns out not to be the case. The heads weigh more or less the same as blades or musclebacks, within the design specifications. Cavity backs may trend higher in weight within the same manufacturer than blades, but it’s only a few grams. In fact, whether a cavity back weighs more than a blade simply depends on…their weight. Here are two examples which show that it’s not always the case: The first is the forged blade offering from KZG. As a point of comparison, note the specs for the forged blade 5-iron: 256 grams. http://kzgolf.com/forgedblades.html Now look at the Golfsmith Tour Cavity Forged 5-iron: 254 grams. http://golfsmith.com/cm/ppage.php?stynum=2148&cseq=~C284598&lcode= The heaviness of Adrian’s clubs is almost certainly not due to the weight of the head, or the design of the head. Instead, that feeling of heaviness might come from extra weight added in the hosel or down the shaft, heavier shafts than those he’s comparing to, or longer lengths. Then when you get your swing muscles stronger, you can square the face faster and cure your slice. It won’t help a hook though because cavity backs have a draw bias built in to them.
They do? I’ve never read that. Can you point me to a reference? I’m surprised because I know a lot of people who hit cavity backs who also hit fades/slices with them. I’m wondering why that draw bias isn’t working for them. The only way to cure the hook is to change the lie and that requires bending the shaft so it has a slice bias built in to it.
This, actually, turns out not to be the case. Hooks come from the clubface being closed to the path of clubhead travel. They’re much more severe than a draw. You can have a draw or fade bias based on lie angle, but without actually checking to see if this is the case, there’s no way to know. Clubheads vary within the same design due to tolerances in manufacturing. They’re not all the same. In fact, you can tell that by looking at the clubs in the links above: They have loft and lie and weight described as within a tolerance. Further, if you need to adjust loft and/or lie in an iron, you bend the clubhead at the hosel, you don’t bend the shaft. But then you need to worry about too much spin like Davis Love did in the Presidents club, but that’s another problem all together……
Adrian is nowhere near having to worry about too much spin. Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
As I got a better swing, I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs. I didnt wana get a mixed set of Irons, so it took longer than normal. Evntualy I found a full set of clubs by….. Herman Barron?? (who the
I have a herman baron expiditer sand wedge + recently took it to a local shop who gave me the whole low down.Herman barron was a very popular club pro in the 60’s (eithor at wing foot or fenway ,some local private westchester ny club)based on his popularity they were marketed like you might find clubs today at walmart "fuzzy zeller’s or such not great quality . ps: this club never made it full time in my bag .
I got a 7 Iron by ProSelect with a cavity back. It was my fisr club and I I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs.
PAGING MIKE DELICKI
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay. I got a 7 Iron by ProSelect with a cavity back. It was my fisr club and I practiced with it almost every day. (iv been practicing on the range for 3 weeks now, not played a round yet) As I got a better swing, I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs. I didnt wana get a mixed set of Irons, so it took longer than normal. Evntualy I found a full set of clubs by….. Herman Barron?? (who the heck?. who made the clubs and are they ay good?) I have no idea the quality of the clubs. But, the face is solid and not Cavity. Iv taken them to the range and tried out the different clubs and done really well. No slices, and I hit the sweet spot squair on pretty much 90% of the time. Okay, they are a little heavy, but I will get used to that as I use them more. Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet)
Since it looks like your goal is to improve, I see no reason to change what you’re playing. If you can hit them effectively, why change? Blades (what you have, also sometimes known as musclebacks) tend to magnify the feeling of a mishit, and they’ll magnify the mistake. That can be good from a learning point of view. Cavity-backs distribute the weight of the clubhead to the perimeter in varying degrees; this can help to produce somewhat better ballflight on mishits, though it can be harder to feel it at the time. In other words, you may only discover it’s a mishit after the ball lands, and that can make it hard to connect what you did with the result. But cavity-backs can be very appropriate for people who play only occasionally and can’t devote the time to keep a swing sharp. Nothing wrong with them. Whats the differenece? I was told that Cavity back clubs are more "forgiving" if you dont strike the sweetspot. But they arnt as accurate as the solid ones. They are more beginner – amature – advanced clubs….
Accurate? Not necessarily any difference. There are pros who play cavity backs. The club champion at my course plays cavity backs. But realize that what makes a club playable or not only starts w/ the design of the head. In most cases, the shaft is more important than the head, as well as the swingweight, length, etc. Two other things: First, if you haven’t had any lessons yet, I suggest you get them. You’re early enough in your golf career that you presumably haven’t developed too many bad habits that will be hard to break. I went 25 years before my first lesson; you have no idea how much I wish I’d had them when I was 15, not when I was 40. Second, welcome to RSG, and to golf! Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Cavity-backs distribute the weight of the clubhead to the perimeter in varying degrees; this can help to produce somewhat better ballflight on mishits, though it can be harder to feel it at the time.
I guess I would question if the cavity back club "hits better" on off center hits or just "feels better". It seems like it would be easy enough for the manufacturer to set up one of those ball hitting robots, and adjust it to hit a quarter or half inch off center and measure the distance the ball goes. But I’ve never seen anyone advertise such results. Just sales talk. I was hitting a long iron on a 185 yard par three last week. The tee was muddy and I got under it a slight bit, hitting the ball a little high on the clubface. Mud went spraying into my eyes, but I saw the ball take off toward the green. The ball felt like a rock, terrible, and I didn’t expect it to go 150 yards. After getting to the green, I was very surprised to see the ball one foot behind the hole, with a ballmark 8 feet in front of the hole. Donald
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Cavity-backs distribute the weight of the clubhead to the perimeter in varying degrees; this can help to produce somewhat better ballflight on mishits, though it can be harder to feel it at the time. I guess I would question if the cavity back club "hits better" on off center hits or just "feels better". It seems like it would be easy enough for the manufacturer to set up one of those ball hitting robots, and adjust it to hit a quarter or half inch off center and measure the distance the ball goes. But I’ve never seen anyone advertise such results. Just sales talk.
I remember someone in RSG saying that Golf Digest had done such a test a few years ago and found that blades went further on mishits, contrary to popular opinion. Can anyone confirm that? — "I feel sorry for people who don’t drink. When they wake up in the morning, that’s as good as they’re going to feel all day" — Frank Sinatra
Cavity backs are lighter so they are easier to swing. This, actually, turns out not to be the case. The heads weigh more or less the same as blades or musclebacks, within the design specifications. Cavity backs may trend higher in weight within the same manufacturer than blades, but it’s only a few grams. In fact, whether a cavity back weighs more than a blade simply depends on…their weight.
of a special light weight alloy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here are two examples which show that it’s not always the case: The first is the forged blade offering from KZG. As a point of comparison, note the specs for the forged blade 5-iron: 256 grams. http://kzgolf.com/forgedblades.html Now look at the Golfsmith Tour Cavity Forged 5-iron: 254 grams. http://golfsmith.com/cm/ppage.php?stynum=2148&cseq=~C284598&lcode= The heaviness of Adrian’s clubs is almost certainly not due to the weight of the head, or the design of the head. Instead, that feeling of heaviness might come from extra weight added in the hosel or down the shaft, heavier shafts than those he’s comparing to, or longer lengths. Then when you get your swing muscles stronger, you can square the face faster and cure your slice. It won’t help a hook though because cavity backs have a draw bias built in to them. They do? I’ve never read that. Can you point me to a reference? I’m surprised because I know a lot of people who hit cavity backs who also hit fades/slices with them. I’m wondering why that draw bias isn’t working for them.
Actually my clubmaker made me a set with draw bias. I was having trouble with my slice so rather than fix my swing, I elected to have a special set of clubs made that had a bend in the shaft to add bias. My slice went away but now I’m having trouble with my distance. I used to only hit a 9, 100 yards but now it’s going 160. I worked on my fast twitch muscles over last winter and now I can square the club face quicker so I may need to have the bias taken out. The only way to cure the hook is to change the lie and that requires bending the shaft so it has a slice bias built in to it. This, actually, turns out not to be the case. Hooks come from the clubface being closed to the path of clubhead travel. They’re much more severe than a draw. You can have a draw or fade bias based on lie angle, but without actually checking to see if this is the case, there’s no way to know. Clubheads vary within the same design due to tolerances in manufacturing. They’re not all the same. In fact, you can tell that by looking at the clubs in the links above: They have loft and lie and weight described as within a tolerance.
Yes I understand but what about spin? You need to factor in the spin on the ball. Further, if you need to adjust loft and/or lie in an iron, you bend the clubhead at the hosel, you don’t bend the shaft.
No, I’m not interested in a set of clubs built with shoddy workmanship. Until you learn where to bend a club, you will not get me to go to your website and look at your clubs that you are trying to sell in RSG. But then you need to worry about too much spin like Davis Love did in the Presidents club, but that’s another problem all together…… Adrian is nowhere near having to worry about too much spin.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cavity backs are lighter so they are easier to swing. This, actually, turns out not to be the case. The heads weigh more or less the same as blades or musclebacks, within the design specifications. Cavity backs may trend higher in weight within the same manufacturer than blades, but it’s only a few grams. In fact, whether a cavity back weighs more than a blade simply depends on…their weight. of a special light weight alloy.
Actually, you stated a generalization about cavity backs which turns out not to be true. It’s only true in your case because you had them specially made. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here are two examples which show that it’s not always the case: The first is the forged blade offering from KZG. As a point of comparison, note the specs for the forged blade 5-iron: 256 grams. http://kzgolf.com/forgedblades.html Now look at the Golfsmith Tour Cavity Forged 5-iron: 254 grams. http://golfsmith.com/cm/ppage.php?stynum=2148&cseq=~C284598&lcode= The heaviness of Adrian’s clubs is almost certainly not due to the weight of the head, or the design of the head. Instead, that feeling of heaviness might come from extra weight added in the hosel or down the shaft, heavier shafts than those he’s comparing to, or longer lengths. Then when you get your swing muscles stronger, you can square the face faster and cure your slice. It won’t help a hook though because cavity backs have a draw bias built in to them. They do? I’ve never read that. Can you point me to a reference? I’m surprised because I know a lot of people who hit cavity backs who also hit fades/slices with them. I’m wondering why that draw bias isn’t working for them. Actually my clubmaker made me a set with draw bias.
So actually, you don’t really know what you’re talking about, do you? You only know about *your* set, which information is useles for Adrian. I was having trouble with my slice so rather than fix my swing, I elected to have a special set of clubs made that had a bend in the shaft to add bias. My slice went away but now I’m having trouble with my distance. I used to only hit a 9, 100 yards but now it’s going 160. I worked on my fast twitch muscles over last winter and now I can square the club face quicker so I may need to have the bias taken out.
The only way to cure the hook is to change the lie and that requires bending the shaft so it has a slice bias built in to it. This, actually, turns out not to be the case. Hooks come from the clubface being closed to the path of clubhead travel. They’re much more severe than a draw. You can have a draw or fade bias based on lie angle, but without actually checking to see if this is the case, there’s no way to know. Clubheads vary within the same design due to tolerances in manufacturing. They’re not all the same. In fact, you can tell that by looking at the clubs in the links above: They have loft and lie and weight described as within a tolerance. Yes I understand but what about spin? You need to factor in the spin on the ball.
Where do you think the curvature of the ball comes from? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Further, if you need to adjust loft and/or lie in an iron, you bend the clubhead at the hosel, you don’t bend the shaft. No, I’m not interested in a set of clubs built with shoddy workmanship. Until you learn where to bend a club, you will not get me to go to your website and look at your clubs that you are trying to sell in RSG. But then you need to worry about too much spin like Davis Love did in the Presidents club, but that’s another problem all together…… Adrian is nowhere near having to worry about too much spin.
This is a very clever troll. Fast twitch? Sheesh. Buh-bye. Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Cavity-backs distribute the weight of the clubhead to the perimeter in varying degrees; this can help to produce somewhat better ballflight on mishits, though it can be harder to feel it at the time. I guess I would question if the cavity back club "hits better" on off center hits or just "feels better". It seems like it would be easy enough for the manufacturer to set up one of those ball hitting robots, and adjust it to hit a quarter or half inch off center and measure the distance the ball goes. But I’ve never seen anyone advertise such results. Just sales talk. I remember someone in RSG saying that Golf Digest had done such a test a few years ago and found that blades went further on mishits, contrary to popular opinion. Can anyone confirm that? —
Yes.They compared the results of miss hits between a cavity back design and a blade ( muscleback). They used an Iron Byron machine to swing the club and they made sure that the misses were the same between the clubs. The results showed that there was less dispersion from the intended target with blades, and that the shots flew longer toward the intended target with the blades. It made no mention of the results of "feel" comparisons, as that could not be tested by the machine. But in all cases–toe, heel, and perfect shots, the blades gave closer shots to the intended target.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes.They compared the results of miss hits between a cavity back design and a blade ( muscleback). They used an Iron Byron machine to swing the club and they made sure that the misses were the same between the clubs. The results showed that there was less dispersion from the intended target with blades, and that the shots flew longer toward the intended target with the blades. It made no mention of the results of "feel" comparisons, as that could not be tested by the machine. But in all cases–toe, heel, and perfect shots, the blades gave closer shots to the intended target.
See now this goes against something a few manufacturers told me. The Cavity back is lighter, but they compensate for the change in dencity by adding the nipple/bump inset thing inside the cavity. The otherall design is supposed to distribute the impact across the club face better than a blade, making a better "feel" as you strike the ball. Its also supposed to make mishits less dramatic. Because the dencity of the club is distributed around the center, rather than flat across the whole face. Seems these manufaturers just wanted me to buy their Titanium inset Cavity Irons….. 
Well, I was going to go play my first round today. But the club is packed!!. I got done by 8:00 and the front 9 was already chock full of golfers. The owner said they had over 200 bookings today….. Nuts! — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
That echoes my experience…mishits on forged blades feel very harsh, and you are shocked to see the ball go almost as far as a pure hit. With cavity backs the mishits don’t feel nearly as bad — often not much different than a "pure" strike.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Cavity-backs distribute the weight of the clubhead to the perimeter in varying degrees; this can help to produce somewhat better ballflight on mishits, though it can be harder to feel it at the time. I guess I would question if the cavity back club "hits better" on off center hits or just "feels better". It seems like it would be easy enough for the manufacturer to set up one of those ball hitting robots, and adjust it to hit a quarter or half inch off center and measure the distance the ball goes. But I’ve never seen anyone advertise such results. Just sales talk. I was hitting a long iron on a 185 yard par three last week. The tee was muddy and I got under it a slight bit, hitting the ball a little high on the clubface. Mud went spraying into my eyes, but I saw the ball take off toward the green. The ball felt like a rock, terrible, and I didn’t expect it to go 150 yards. After getting to the green, I was very surprised to see the ball one foot behind the hole, with a ballmark 8 feet in front of the hole. Donald
Mike…as much as I attack it is not personal and I deeply respect your reluctance to mix it up.You probably understand its the policy that is(I / We believe ) wrong,not you for maximising your exposure( and profit) from within this non commercial group. I also like that you tell all beginners who ask about equipment to take lessons. this benefits golf in general. Happy Thanksgiving and hope you and your family have a happy healthy holiday season.
of a special light weight alloy.
What special alloy is that? I hope you’re a better golfer than troll. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
So does Sparky’s….and he is known to hit it pretty long. Here in the NW we have a term for that….mediocre. :-)
Ouch! I didn’t really look at Matt’s left foot. Could be just ’cause he was swinging in his tennis shoes in the long wet grass of Portland. A big guy like him needs some sort of traction in the golf swing.
I tried playing in tennis shoes twice. Once when it was dry, I was able to keep my balance. The other when it was slightly wet, I couldn’t keep my balance at all, was slipping and spraying the ball all over the place. I only play in golf shoes with good spikes now. 250 pounds of pure, err…table muscle, needs more traction than tennis shoes.
Well, the left foot turns 90 degrees, that is pretty odd. So does Sparky’s….and he is known to hit it pretty long. Here in the NW we have a term for that….mediocre. :-)
Yeah, ok, Sparky may hit it long and straight that way, but it’s still odd. It’s very hard to keep your balance, when your left foot isn’t planted on the ground. I used to do that and my pro told me I am turning way too much. Indeed, when I stopped turning so much my swing improved a lot and I was able to keep my balance. FWIW, everyone must have his own system Ulrich
I was in sneakers on wet grass. Next time I’ll get a video at the range with my golf shoes on.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, the left foot turns 90 degrees, that is pretty odd. Ulrich
I don’t know ’bout you Matt, but I wouldn’t change much. Doesn’t look like your balance is that far off to me. It may look a bit like that, just ’cause you wanted to get back to turn the camera off. I think you could hold that finish forever. Well, the left foot turns 90 degrees, that is pretty odd.
So does Sparky’s….and he is known to hit it pretty long. Here in the NW we have a term for that….mediocre. :-) I didn’t really look at Matt’s left foot. Could be just ’cause he was swinging in his tennis shoes in the long wet grass of Portland. A big guy like him needs some sort of traction in the golf swing. — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson
I don’t know ’bout you Matt, but I wouldn’t change much. Doesn’t look like your balance is that far off to me. It may look a bit like that, just ’cause you wanted to get back to turn the camera off. I think you could hold that finish forever.
Well, the left foot turns 90 degrees, that is pretty odd. Ulrich
Matt, it’s been a few years since we last played golf together. I don’t recall you being this ugly! <g
Neither do I But the swing looks terrific. Very fluid. I’d like to see you address the ball just a wee bit closer to your body; looks like you’re reaching for it a bit. But other than that, this is a very solid golf swing. Randy
GOOD CATCH, In the video I am too far and my arms are stretching out! I’ve been told that before and have really been working on it, but old habits die hard. I think what happened is that my current irons are 1/2 over (without me knowing it till last Monday BTW) and it’s caused me to stand a little further from the ball than I should. I’m gripping down on my clubs now but I still have that tendency I guess. Another poster mentioned my spine angle changes in the backswing and downswing. I did some video capture and photoshoping and my angle doesn’t change in the backswing but in the downswing it does, my head and spine dip. Maybe that’s good, maybe that’s bad. I might try to fix it….Maybe…I’ll have to see what happens after I fix my reaching problem. have to make sure I only change one thing at a time.
My camera is a Cannon A40 with a Movie mode. I should have brought it out with us on the course to take more pics and some video’s. Come on down here and we’ll setup to play Camas Meadows just outside of Vancouver, I can take some videos of you swing
You could further decrease the file size with http://www.divx.com/divx .. (codec) and the virtualdub (look for it in the net) (free btw) (PS: to make swings with or without balls can be very different AFAIK, but it looks like modern swings looks like) — calmar (o_ GNU/Linux is GREAT // V_/_ http://www.calmar.ws
(did the pine cone slice or draw?) I think it hit the tree just to my left.
lets see what you get on a golf shot (real ball- real course)
Matt, it’s been a few years since we last played golf together. I don’t recall you being this ugly! <g But the swing looks terrific. Very fluid. I’d like to see you address the ball just a wee bit closer to your body; looks like you’re reaching for it a bit. But other than that, this is a very solid golf swing. Randy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I decided to take a look at my swing and see what some issues could be. I put it on my server for anyone to see. There is no ball, but that pinecone is history. You may have to try multiple apps to see it. I got it to work best under Apple Quicktime. http://home.comcast.net/~maamold/golfswing.AVI
I decided to take a look at my swing and see what some issues could be. I put it on my server for anyone to see. There is no ball, but that pinecone is history. You may have to try multiple apps to see it. I got it to work best under Apple Quicktime.
I’m impressed that the video came from a digital camera, that looked pretty good. I have that feature in mine, but I never use it. . . I don’t know enough to offer you swing advice, but simply wanted to suggest that you might position the camera so it’s centered on the ball and not on you. You’ll be able to check your takeaway and swing plane a bit better that way. From this angle, it looks like you’re taking the club back too far inside and your swing plane is too flat but I dunno, it doesn’t seem to hurt your swing. (oops, I did it anyway, sorry. . .)
What kind of distances do you hit?? Uh….is "a friggin’ ton" descriptive enough? The Big Dog can move it….esp. from the tee. Big high ball via Taylor Made 5 series.
In georgia we have a word for big hitters from the NW, "short"…. me
My camera is a Cannon A40 with a Movie mode. I should have brought it out with us on the course to take more pics and some video’s. Come on down here and we’ll setup to play Camas Meadows just outside of Vancouver, I can take some videos of you swing
What are the specs for the movie mode on that camera? Does it shoot it in .avi or did you convert it with something? My Sony will shoot .mpeg at HQX320×240 at 16 frames/sec. Your Canon seemed to do better than that. Maybe it’s just the .avi format? — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson
You were hitting more than a few drives ’bout 280-290 right Matt? Distances with irons were pretty reasonable (8 iron around 150), but they were 1980 Hogan blades. 8 iron was probably lofted around 42*, 9 iron 46*, E-wedge around 50*. At least a club weaker than today’s even weaker club standards. Todd….what are the specs on those Hogans?
1980-model Ben Hogan Directors with DG X100’s (1/2" long) and Golf Pride Full Cord Tour Wraps. (I plan to take them in to my club guy and get him to lop the extra half-inch off for me…I’m just not tall enough. Should allow me to set up a little more comfortably.) Lofts are, in order: 3I – 23* 4I – 26.5* 5I – 30* 6I – 33.5* 7I – 37* 8I – 41* 9I – 45* E – 51.5* As for me having to lay off with Matt’s S300-shafted Revolutions…I’m not necessarily sure that was a bad thing. On a lot of shots I found myself at weird yardages, so Sasha was saying "it’s a nuked eight or a soft seven" pretty often. That day I felt more comfortable trying to feather the ball in there. I dunno. I don’t have enough rounds on the X100’s to figure out how smoothly I can swing them (and what kind of distance that’ll cost me). I figure if I look at my swingspeed, I’m just barely into the X range… Go work on your short game! :-)
Chip into your kid’s crib! You’ve got incentive to be accurate… Prof. Rev. Todd "Runyan" McGillivray, Esq. http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ Emailing me? tmcg at sasktel dot net. "He was full of pep. Must’ve had his grande-latte enema." – Fight Club
Uh….is "a friggin’ ton" descriptive enough? The Big Dog can move it….esp. from the tee. Big high ball via Taylor Made 5 series. You were hitting more than a few drives ’bout 280-290 right Matt?
You and Todd aren’t slouches either, you won theRSG NW 03 Long drive as I remember. I just want to be as accurate as Mark and Peeps! Distances with irons were pretty reasonable (8 iron around 150), but they were 1980 Hogan blades. 8 iron was probably lofted around 42*, 9 iron 46*, E-wedge around 50*. At least a club weaker than today’s even weaker club standards. Todd….what are the specs on those Hogans?
on Hogans site it lists these lofts 3i is 23*, 5i is 30*, 9i is 45* and PW is 51.5 How far did you hit that 3 iron from the tee on 17 in the morning round? That was impressive.
Big, it was big. I only had 147 into 17 so by the e-yardage book it was about 235. It also look likes you want to look up ala Duval/Sorenstam as your begin your downswing, but you hold it off and come underneath beautifully….it’s a great move to your left side. The long-backswing, yet balanced finish look rather Daly-esque. What did you shoot that video with?….works great with Quick Time. I’d like to shoot a similar one of mine to analyze with QT next time I’m over in PDX. The drag bar is a nice way to way to analyze and the frame setting you used seems pretty seemless….not too disjunct. Go work on your short game! :-)
My camera is a Cannon A40 with a Movie mode. I should have brought it out with us on the course to take more pics and some video’s. Come on down here and we’ll setup to play Camas Meadows just outside of Vancouver, I can take some videos of you swing
I decided to take a look at my swing and see what some issues could be. I put it on my server for anyone to see. There is no ball, but that pinecone is history. You may have to try multiple apps to see it. I got it to work best under Apple Quicktime. http://home.comcast.net/~maamold/golfswing.AVI
Here are my observations — caveat i have only been playing golf for two years so buyer beware. It looks like your spine angle is getting a little bit upright on the backswing, mainly at the top of swing position (I could also see a little bit too much straightening of the right knee). I believe this is due to overswinging – the club also goes way past parallel. My guess based on your swing is that your bad shots are of three types – thin shots, hooks and pushes. Thin shots due to spine angle coming up and then you dipping a little on the downswing. Hooks and pushes mainly because your swing path is in to out — notice that if you draw a line along the shaft halfway during the downswing (btw the shaft bisecting the forearms is a great position), and you look at the corresponding position in the follow through the shaft is much more vertical. It might help to go a little bit more inside-square-inside rather than inside out. Again, I’m not a swing expert — I guess others on the group can provide more assistance. Vijay
(did the pine cone slice or draw?)
Knowing Matty? About a three-yard draw. Problem is that there’s no pinecone left. Todd – you should see what he does to a golf ball Prof. Rev. Todd "Runyan" McGillivray, Esq. http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ Emailing me? tmcg at sasktel dot net. "He was full of pep. Must’ve had his grande-latte enema." – Fight Club
It used to be 11 and getting lower, Then I got married and had a kid so it’s on the rise . First time I played Bandon Dunes the other day I shot an 88 after a 2 (or 3?) month absence from a golf course so it’s probably a 12-13 now. I usually hover around low 80’s, If I could get my short game together I could go lower. I also need to get in better shape, I get tired I start hooking the ball like crazy. Next time I’ll go to get to the range and video myself and put it on the server – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – nice looking position at the top…and nice swing plane too. what’s your handicap? jk
a) your grass needs cutting!
That’s what I was doing b) nice powerful swing style
Thanks c) seems to be too much weight towards your toes at address…leading to imbalance on the follow through.
ok, I was thinking that also. Losing some weight is my goal to help with keeping my weight centered more d) keep your eye on the ball position a fraction longer..will help you stay ‘behind’ the ball and will also help your balance
My group at Bandon noticed that too, my head swivels towards the target and then back to the ball then past the ball again. Weird!?! ok, stay behind the ball more just after impact. (did the pine cone slice or draw?)
I think it hit the tree just to my left.
a) your grass needs cutting! That’s what I was doing
A nice sling blade on a Harrison shaft might be faster… Eliyahu
What kind of distances do you hit?? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I decided to take a look at my swing and see what some issues could be. I put it on my server for anyone to see. There is no ball, but that pinecone is history. You may have to try multiple apps to see it. I got it to work best under Apple Quicktime. http://home.comcast.net/~maamold/golfswing.AVI
Using Todd’s Hogan’s with x-100 (X-Stiff) shafts the other day I hit an 8i 155y and my 7 went 168y, I also hit a huge 3i off the tee (230-240 maybe?). With my normal S300 (Stiff) shafts I hit my own 3 wood off the deck 240y (carry) my driver goes 260-270 with those shafts. I think If I were to go X-Stiff in all my clubs I’d gain another 10-15 yards with my woods and about 5-10 yards with my irons, I would be able to swing at my comfort speed rather than holding back so much. Todd had hold back when he borrowed my Rev’s with S300 shafts, he couldn’t swing as fast as he normally does.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What kind of distances do you hit??
I decided to take a look at my swing and see what some issues could be. I put it on my server for anyone to see. There is no ball, but that pinecone is history. You may have to try multiple apps to see it. I got it to work best under Apple Quicktime. http://home.comcast.net/~maamold/golfswing.AVI
What kind of distances do you hit??
Uh….is "a friggin’ ton" descriptive enough? The Big Dog can move it….esp. from the tee. Big high ball via Taylor Made 5 series. You were hitting more than a few drives ’bout 280-290 right Matt? Distances with irons were pretty reasonable (8 iron around 150), but they were 1980 Hogan blades. 8 iron was probably lofted around 42*, 9 iron 46*, E-wedge around 50*. At least a club weaker than today’s even weaker club standards. Todd….what are the specs on those Hogans? How far did you hit that 3 iron from the tee on 17 in the morning round? That was impressive. I don’t know ’bout you Matt, but I wouldn’t change much. Doesn’t look like your balance is that far off to me. It may look a bit like that, just ’cause you wanted to get back to turn the camera off. I think you could hold that finish forever. It also look likes you want to look up ala Duval/Sorenstam as your begin your downswing, but you hold it off and come underneath beautifully….it’s a great move to your left side. The long-backswing, yet balanced finish look rather Daly-esque. What did you shoot that video with?….works great with Quick Time. I’d like to shoot a similar one of mine to analyze with QT next time I’m over in PDX. The drag bar is a nice way to way to analyze and the frame setting you used seems pretty seemless….not too disjunct. Go work on your short game! :-) — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson
I decided to take a look at my swing and see what some issues could be. I put it on my server for anyone to see. There is no ball, but that pinecone is history. You may have to try multiple apps to see it. I got it to work best under Apple Quicktime. http://home.comcast.net/~maamold/golfswing.AVI
a) your grass needs cutting! b) nice powerful swing style c) seems to be too much weight towards your toes at address…leading to imbalance on the follow through. d) keep your eye on the ball position a fraction longer..will help you stay ‘behind’ the ball and will also help your balance otherwise, looks Ok! (did the pine cone slice or draw?) cheers david
nice looking position at the top…and nice swing plane too. what’s your handicap? jk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I decided to take a look at my swing and see what some issues could be. I put it on my server for anyone to see. There is no ball, but that pinecone is history. You may have to try multiple apps to see it. I got it to work best under Apple Quicktime. http://home.comcast.net/~maamold/golfswing.AVI
I decided to take a look at my swing and see what some issues could be. I put it on my server for anyone to see. There is no ball, but that pinecone is history. You may have to try multiple apps to see it. I got it to work best under Apple Quicktime. http://home.comcast.net/~maamold/golfswing.AVI
I see Craig Spence finished T25 in the European Tour Qualifying School (66 69 71 67 69 68) to secure a full card for 2004.
good news about craig. he was almost heading into duval territory with his game.
I see Craig Spence finished T25 in the European Tour Qualifying School (66 69 71 67 69 68) to secure a full card for 2004. Another Victorian, Daniel Gaunt, finished T8 (65 71 69 65 66 71). Danny comes from Romsey, a town about 40km away from me. He has always been an outstanding golfer … great to see him make it on to the Euro Tour. (His brother Chris is also a professional.)
LOL. "Mr. Roboto", how appropriate. The funny thing is, I noticed that when he actually swings, his hands and arms don’t stay that far out in front of him. I happen to have recorded him long time ago in some tourney I wanted to tape and if you would just look at his swing and not his preshot routine or setup, it’s actually not too bad a swing. Kinda short, but the swing itself isn’t as bad as you anticipate it’d look considering how he looks when he’s setting up to the ball.
LOL. "Mr. Roboto", how appropriate. The funny thing is, I noticed that when he actually swings, his hands and arms don’t stay that far out in front of him. I happen to have recorded him long time ago in some tourney I wanted to tape and if you would just look at his swing and not his preshot routine or setup, it’s actually not too bad a swing. Kinda short, but the swing itself isn’t as bad as you anticipate it’d look considering how he looks when he’s setting up to the ball.
I’m sure there’s not much wrong with his mechanics. His set-up and pre-shot routine just looks awkward. Craig Spence was tied with Greg Norman coming up 18 in the Australian Masters a few years ago. Both were on the fairway, Spence a little behind Norman for the second shot. He then hit one of the best shots you would ever see … a drawing 6-iron from about 170m to a pin right at the back left part of the green. I was standing about 25m directly behind him, and it covered the pin all the way, finishing two feet from the hole. Shades of Shaun Micheel this year. Norman parred the hole and lost. It is still one of the most memorable shots ever to win a major Australian event. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
I see Craig Spence finished T25 in the European Tour Qualifying School (66 69 71 67 69 68) to secure a full card for 2004. Another Victorian, Daniel Gaunt, finished T8 (65 71 69 65 66 71). Danny comes from Romsey, a town about 40km away from me. He has always been an outstanding golfer … great to see him make it on to the Euro Tour. (His brother Chris is also a professional.) — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
For a while now I have been wondering why I was so relatively short with my irons when I am a reasonably long driver. Normally when I play, my drives are level or ahead of my playing partners, but I’m a club or two shorter with my irons. Our handicaps are all between 4 and 6, so it has baffled me why there was so much difference in our games. I think I have found some kind of answer to my problem. On the driving range last week I started warming up by hitting 1/2 shots with my SW. I notice that these 1/2 shots were flying further that my normal SW distance. When I checked my backswing position I could see that the shaft was almost horizontal, even though it felt like I was only swinging back 1/2 way. I started to work on this and these ‘restricted’ backswings were giving me at least 10 yards extra. When I took a ‘full’ backswing, the shaft position didn’t appear to be much further on than with the shorter swing, even though it felt like a much longer backswing. My interpretation is that I was getting to the correct position at the top of my backswing with a 90 degree shoulder turn and a 45 degree hip turn, then I was continuing my backswing by turning my hips further round. I guess this meant that I had no coil built up between my hip turn and shoulder turn. Anyway, restricting my backswing seems to have given me a lot more power and has helped me square up the clubface. I’m not sure why my driver seemed to work ok before, but I’m not worrying about that now. The first time I tried this new swing on the course I followed a 280 yard drive with a 130 yard PW to 5 feet and holed the putt! I hit a few more good shots after that, but then the wind picked up to its normal 20 mph, so it was hard to tell any distances accurately. Does this make sense to the swing gurus out there?
Anyway, restricting my backswing seems to have given me a lot more power and has helped me square up the clubface.
I was doing the same thing. Had a lesson and was told to stop the backswing a lot earlier (feels like the arms are pointing straight back — they aren’t). The pro said something about running out of acceleration by the time I’m getting to the ball otherwise. I was also having trouble with long irons — not low swingspeed, but hands well before the ball, leading to some serious delofting at impact. Maybe your loft at impact has changed with the shorter backswing — hands a shade more forward would add yards… Thomas Prufer
<snipped I think I have found some kind of answer to my problem. On the driving range last week I started warming up by hitting 1/2 shots with my SW. I notice that these 1/2 shots were flying further that my normal SW distance. When I checked my backswing position I could see that the shaft was almost horizontal, even though it felt like I was only swinging back 1/2 way.
<snipped I had this exact same problem for years and I still slip into it every now and then, especially when I try to kill the ball. My interpretation is that I was getting to the correct position at the top of my backswing with a 90 degree shoulder turn and a 45 degree hip turn, then I was continuing my backswing by turning my hips further round. I guess this meant that I had no coil built up between my hip turn and shoulder turn.
<snipped This is exactly what is happening. It took my teaching pro almost 2 years (I can be damn stubborn!) to beat it into my head that a long backswing does not mean a more powerful swing. The best indicator is actually the difference in turn between the shoulders and hips (relative to the target line). Ideally, you would turn your shoulders 90* and your hips wouldn’t turn at all, but in the real world a difference of more than 60* between the shoulder and hip turn is pretty good for an amateur. Of course, that doesn’t mean turning the hips 45* and the shoulders 105*, that would take you far past parallel and make it very difficult to get the clubhead back into the slot on the downswing. That’s kind of what John Daly does, so you can see that even a pro with 2 majors has trouble with a swing like that. It is better to keep the hip turn to a minimum and maximize shoulder turn. The first time I tried this new swing on the course I followed a 280 yard drive with a 130 yard PW to 5 feet and holed the putt! I hit a few more good shots after that, but then the wind picked up to its normal 20 mph, so it was hard to tell any distances accurately. Does this make sense to the swing gurus out there?
It make perfect sense to me because I went though a very similar process. — Dan Driscoll Member – NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
I think I have found some kind of answer to my problem. On the driving range last week I started warming up by hitting 1/2 shots with my SW. I notice that these 1/2 shots were flying further that my normal SW distance. When I checked my backswing position I could see that the shaft was almost horizontal, even though it felt like I was only swinging back 1/2 way. I started to work on this and these ‘restricted’ backswings were giving me at least 10 yards extra. When I took a ‘full’ backswing, the shaft position didn’t appear to be much further on than with the shorter swing, even though it felt like a much longer backswing.
That is obvious to bad players such as myself when I get a chance to look at my full swing, my 3/4 swing, and my 1/2 swing on camera. I wasn’t aware that it was so obvious for good players. Are you looser with your drivers than with your irons?
That is obvious to bad players such as myself when I get a chance to look at my full swing, my 3/4 swing, and my 1/2 swing on camera. I wasn’t aware that it was so obvious for good players.
A few weeks ago I got caught on the edge of the fairway with a bush directly behind me. I could only manage a restricted backswing, about half normal. I was 120m from the green, and thought I’d need some extra club to compensate, so I took an 8-iron instead of a 9-iron. Punchy half swing, made perfect contact … airmailed the green by 15 metres! When I first started playing golf, I felt like my own backswing was naturally quite short. Then I saw my swing on video for the first time, and it was only about 10 degrees from horizontal at the top. So I stopped worrying about how far to swing back and concentrated on more important things, like alignment, rotation and swing plane. I swung much better for it. In some players, getting the shaft horizontal (or past it) coincides with the arms "collapsing" … they get there by arm bend, not by rotating properly. A shorter, punchy backswing doesn’t seem to affect a player like Peter Lonard when it comes to scoring. He’s been known for years as a very accurate iron player. He is not way down the bottom in driving distance either … 50th with 292.8 this year. Also, a few years ago there was a guy at my club, about my age, who took no more than what most of us would call a half swing. But it was very "whippy" … perfect release through the ball. He could easily outdrive me and played off 5! — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
It sure does, even tho a part, the important part, of the swing was not addressed, but come into play, made the difference between times discussed. Good luck, hope you can keep that shaft horizontal at the right time. —— Does this make sense to the swing gurus out there?
m h o
My next set will be the KZG Zero Offsets (Satin) they have a modern but old school look to them. Classic
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I’m mulling building another set of irons and was thinking about the : Tom Wishon forged heads (maybe a mix of cavity back and blades like : they mention at their web site). One thing I really like about my : Dynacraft heads as opposed to the Ping Eye2 set I started with is that : they have a very slender top line. Unfortunately, the photos at the : Wishon web site are rear view only. Does anyone have any photos of : these irons from the top and front that they could email me or post : somewhere? : : Also, any thoughts on their idea of having a set of clubs composed of : a mix of blade and cavity back style, with the former for the long : irons and the latter for the mid and short irons? : : Thanks to all! : : Bob : Ontario, California I just built a mixed set (I went with 3-6 550C, 7-P 550M) and they are gorgeous. I’ve only had them to the range twice, and unfortunately I sprained my hand on the second trip, so I won’t be able to hit them again for a couple weeks. 
My previous irons are Ben Hogan Apex+ and the Wishons look (at set up) and seem to play very similarly. — http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=oinesroald Please remove the under_scores if sending me mail.
My next set will be the KZG Zero Offsets (Satin) they have a modern but old school look to them. Classic
I loved the look of those ZO’s when I first saw them. Our only local KZG dealer had a set of heads in for a customer and they were as nice a set of forgings as I’ve ever seen. Funny thing, I play Joe Powell ‘Original’ forged blades, from 15 years ago roughly, and the KZG ZO’s are carbon copies of the Powells. — Ron Blanchard http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=blanchardr *** Troll and SPAM intolerant *** "Golfers are meant to suffer." - Ian MacCallister <snip
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m mulling building another set of irons and was thinking about the Tom Wishon forged heads (maybe a mix of cavity back and blades like they mention at their web site). One thing I really like about my Dynacraft heads as opposed to the Ping Eye2 set I started with is that they have a very slender top line. Unfortunately, the photos at the Wishon web site are rear view only. Does anyone have any photos of these irons from the top and front that they could email me or post somewhere? Also, any thoughts on their idea of having a set of clubs composed of a mix of blade and cavity back style, with the former for the long irons and the latter for the mid and short irons? Thanks to all! Bob Ontario, California
Bob, I have a set of Eye2’s and a Wishon 550C forged 7 iron so I tried to measure the top lines. I have the Ping at about .28" and the 550C at about .19". That might not sound like a lot, but the Ping has a very rounded top line which makes it look bigger than it measures and the Wishon has a very crisp top line that tends to make it look smaller. Looking at then side by side, there’s a noticable difference. HTH, Kenny — Kenny Stultz
Also, any thoughts on their idea of having a set of clubs composed of a mix of blade and cavity back style, with the former for the long irons and the latter for the mid and short irons?
When Verplank was still playing Golfsmith clubs he used the Tour Cavity Forged for his 3 and 4 iron–rest of the set were the Pro Forged. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
: I’m mulling building another set of irons and was thinking about the : Tom Wishon forged heads (maybe a mix of cavity back and blades like : they mention at their web site). One thing I really like about my : Dynacraft heads as opposed to the Ping Eye2 set I started with is that : they have a very slender top line. Unfortunately, the photos at the : Wishon web site are rear view only. Does anyone have any photos of : these irons from the top and front that they could email me or post : somewhere? : : Also, any thoughts on their idea of having a set of clubs composed of : a mix of blade and cavity back style, with the former for the long : irons and the latter for the mid and short irons? : : Thanks to all! : : Bob : Ontario, California I just built a mixed set (I went with 3-6 550C, 7-P 550M) and they are gorgeous. I’ve only had them to the range twice, and unfortunately I sprained my hand on the second trip, so I won’t be able to hit them again for a couple weeks. My previous irons are Ben Hogan Apex+ and the Wishons look (at set up) and seem to play very similarly. — http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=oinesroald Please remove the under_scores if sending me mail.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m mulling building another set of irons and was thinking about the Tom Wishon forged heads (maybe a mix of cavity back and blades like they mention at their web site). One thing I really like about my Dynacraft heads as opposed to the Ping Eye2 set I started with is that they have a very slender top line. Unfortunately, the photos at the Wishon web site are rear view only. Does anyone have any photos of these irons from the top and front that they could email me or post somewhere? Also, any thoughts on their idea of having a set of clubs composed of a mix of blade and cavity back style, with the former for the long irons and the latter for the mid and short irons? Thanks to all! Bob Ontario, California
Hey Bob, The mixed set concept is becoming quite popular and makes sense IMHO. Now I am going to tell you that the Wishon irons you are thinking about are nothing short of winners. They rave about them in www.4gea.com and I trust a lot of the opinions there. I saw the forged head at a local fitters shop, and it looks great. And knowing the quality of the Wishon line, you will probably be very satisfied with this product. I am building a set of irons using the Wishon 752TC heads. This is one of the most attractive designs I have seen and the notching on the bottom of the club and they way it changes from iron to iron is fascinating. I can’t wait to hit these babies and they should be done in the next week or two Hope you give the Wishons a try. Great stuff Eric "the Hammer"
Also, any thoughts on their idea of having a set of clubs composed of a mix of blade and cavity back style, with the former for the long irons and the latter for the mid and short irons?
The Wishon (550c/m?) are the most beautiful clubheads I have ever seen, yesterday I was looking at a ‘mixed’ set of the blades and cavitiy backs (2-4 iron c/b…..5-g/w m/b). The ‘blades’ are available 5-iron through to s/w (incl. a/w)…and the cavity backs are available 2-iron thru’ to s/w (incl. a/w). The quality appears to be superb. http://www.wishongolf.com/index.html I think Tom Wishon is going to achieve the sort of respect that Hogan had when he was manufacturing clubs..producing ‘thinking man’s’ clubs. They really are beautiful! I like Wishon’s philosophy on weight increments between wood heads…..he is sticking closely to 10 gram increments to ensure at least 1" length increments between clubs……also I believe that some of his iron heads are a few grams heavier than the ‘normal standard’. I think a mixed set of the Wishon 550’s will be my next choice of irons! cheers david
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m mulling building another set of irons and was thinking about the Tom Wishon forged heads (maybe a mix of cavity back and blades like they mention at their web site). One thing I really like about my Dynacraft heads as opposed to the Ping Eye2 set I started with is that they have a very slender top line. Unfortunately, the photos at the Wishon web site are rear view only. Does anyone have any photos of these irons from the top and front that they could email me or post somewhere? Also, any thoughts on their idea of having a set of clubs composed of a mix of blade and cavity back style, with the former for the long irons and the latter for the mid and short irons? Thanks to all! Bob Ontario, California
I play the Wishon 550 irons 2I-4I in forged cavity 5I-PW in forged muscle PW @ 49*, Pured Rifle 6.5 shafts, V-50 Cord grips. Very nice look at address, not clunky (ala ping). I do not find the musclebacks any harder or easier to hit than any other club. The difference is in the feedback. I learned a ton about my golf swing from these irons at impact. Transformed my game. Can easily work these irons either way. Demo’d several models of component and OEM irons before purchasing these Cleveland TA3 – liked these quite well Hogan CFT- not so much KZG Forged- 2nd place Golfsmith- middle of the road SnakeEyes- do not remember Nike- harsh Titleist- liked these Adams- no feedback Cobra- do not remember Taylormade RAC- lofts seemed very strong, would have to carry 6 wedges I have never had a better iron game than right now. Nothing but good thoughts. Quality is near perfect. Any other specific questions post back…… Gregg
I’m mulling building another set of irons and was thinking about the Tom Wishon forged heads (maybe a mix of cavity back and blades like they mention at their web site). One thing I really like about my Dynacraft heads as opposed to the Ping Eye2 set I started with is that they have a very slender top line. Unfortunately, the photos at the Wishon web site are rear view only. Does anyone have any photos of these irons from the top and front that they could email me or post somewhere? Also, any thoughts on their idea of having a set of clubs composed of a mix of blade and cavity back style, with the former for the long irons and the latter for the mid and short irons? Thanks to all! Bob Ontario, California
The tour guys are finding the TPC golf course a real tester – I saw Davis Love leave a putt about 20 feet short yesterday and today Ernie Els accomplished a real rarity – a one putt and a chip in on the same hole (first putt off the green, then in from the fringe). It’s almost a US Open style course. It’s fun to watch these guys play when it’s really, really tough for them. This course has only 3 par fives and they’re no pushovers. Maybe that’s the secret to making it a challenge – cut out a couple of par 5’s. I like the way the designer made the greens – many are 10,000 sq. ft but if you don’t hit the quarter that holds the pin it’s a tough 2 putt. Yipes, some of them are lightning fast and slope towards the water. Fun to watch em earn their dough. My pick is Retief Goosen to win at 13 under. His putting is pretty good. He shot 67 today with only so-so play tee to green. Very entertaining tournament. jmkanes
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The tour guys are finding the TPC golf course a real tester – I saw Davis Love leave a putt about 20 feet short yesterday and today Ernie Els accomplished a real rarity – a one putt and a chip in on the same hole (first putt off the green, then in from the fringe). It’s almost a US Open style course. It’s fun to watch these guys play when it’s really, really tough for them. This course has only 3 par fives and they’re no pushovers. Maybe that’s the secret to making it a challenge – cut out a couple of par 5’s. I like the way the designer made the greens – many are 10,000 sq. ft but if you don’t hit the quarter that holds the pin it’s a tough 2 putt. Yipes, some of them are lightning fast and slope towards the water. Fun to watch em earn their dough. My pick is Retief Goosen to win at 13 under. His putting is pretty good. He shot 67 today with only so-so play tee to green.
Interesting that the top putters on tour are doing so well in this tournament! <g — RSG Masters 2004 pre-preliminary format http://home.att.net/~frostback2002 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=frostback "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are" Joseph Campbell
Yeah, except this isn’t a TPC course. It’s a traditional course. Champions Golf Club. And for those still pulling for Tiger to make a run for the title (and the money title), he’s got a long way to go. But he has won at Champions before. That was the year they took Friday off to fly back to Orlando for the Payne Stewart funeral. An unforgettable week. Looks like Charles Howell, who, as some may recall, had a putt to tie Vijay on the 72nd hole last year at East Lake (which he missed), is determined to close the deal this year. Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The tour guys are finding the TPC golf course a real tester – I saw Davis Love leave a putt about 20 feet short yesterday and today Ernie Els accomplished a real rarity – a one putt and a chip in on the same hole (first putt off the green, then in from the fringe). It’s almost a US Open style course. It’s fun to watch these guys play when it’s really, really tough for them. This course has only 3 par fives and they’re no pushovers. Maybe that’s the secret to making it a challenge – cut out a couple of par 5’s. I like the way the designer made the greens – many are 10,000 sq. ft but if you don’t hit the quarter that holds the pin it’s a tough 2 putt. Yipes, some of them are lightning fast and slope towards the water. Fun to watch em earn their dough. My pick is Retief Goosen to win at 13 under. His putting is pretty good. He shot 67 today with only so-so play tee to green. Very entertaining tournament. jmkanes
: Yeah, except this isn’t a TPC course. It’s a traditional course. Champions : Golf Club. Good old Ralph Plummer. Maybe in a few years they’ll hold it in Grand Prairie. cb (any Texas golfer who doesn’t know of Ralph Plummer isn’t really a Texas golfer)
Plummer is a John Bredemus (sp?) protege. Bredemus designed Colonial and Preston Trail (the long-time home of the Byron Nelson Classic before it moved to the TPC at Las Colinas). And unless I’m mistaken, he also designed that awful Fort Worth muni on the north side of town… Rock-something-or-other. (Rockdale? Rockport? Something like that. I forget.) I’m not sure if Plummer is still alive. Didn’t he also design the other Grand Prairie course in south GP (I forget the name)? I know he did a ton of Texas courses. A fine designer, if often overlooked. From my years of playing Grand Prairie, I was quite familiar with its design features, and when I was in Houston to cover the TOUR Championship in ‘97 and ‘01, I recall noticing one of the same course design features prevalent at Grand Prairie Municipal. Namely that many of the greens are quite large, but have little tiny "fingers" that jut out in different directions (sort of like a clover), that can cause havoc for players who hit to a wrong part of the green. They’ll either have to putt through the fringe, or chip from the green over a corner of the green to get to where the hole is. This also gives the committee the opportunity to practically hide the pins where they can’t be found — those little areas are so small, no pro would ever try to hit it there. Personally, I always thought his greens were the best part of the course. But then again, since putting and chipping have long been my favorite parts of the game, I would think that, now wouldn’t I? Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Yeah, except this isn’t a TPC course. It’s a traditional course. Champions : Golf Club. Good old Ralph Plummer. Maybe in a few years they’ll hold it in Grand Prairie. cb (any Texas golfer who doesn’t know of Ralph Plummer isn’t really a Texas golfer)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, except this isn’t a TPC course. It’s a traditional course. Champions Golf Club. And for those still pulling for Tiger to make a run for the title (and the money title), he’s got a long way to go. But he has won at Champions before. That was the year they took Friday off to fly back to Orlando for the Payne Stewart funeral. An unforgettable week. Looks like Charles Howell, who, as some may recall, had a putt to tie Vijay on the 72nd hole last year at East Lake (which he missed), is determined to close the deal this year. Randy
Yet to be seen, really. This has unfortunately been "par for the course" for Charles Howell this year … scoring average on days one and two rank him 8th, day three 107th and day four 120th! It really explains his place on the money list (he scores well enough to make the cuts), but also explains why he’s 27th on that list. I really like the kid. He’s capable of smacking the ball a loooong way and appears to have a great demeanor. More experience may really help him? Larry
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, except this isn’t a TPC course. It’s a traditional course. Champions Golf Club. And for those still pulling for Tiger to make a run for the title (and the money title), he’s got a long way to go. But he has won at Champions before. That was the year they took Friday off to fly back to Orlando for the Payne Stewart funeral. An unforgettable week. Looks like Charles Howell, who, as some may recall, had a putt to tie Vijay on the 72nd hole last year at East Lake (which he missed), is determined to close the deal this year. Randy
I don’t like Charles Howell’s chances too much – yesterday he hit an eight iron 180 yds. Judy Rankin commented that she has yet to see him hit an iron shot at less than *full power*. I don’t think he can go 72 holes on that basis without a triple bogey. By the way, I thought this was the TPC, so that the course it is played on is the TPC course. There’s something I don’t understand here. What’s a TPC course? Also Randy, I have experimented my way to a new right hand putting grip – the right hand grips the club only with the thumb, with the fingers sort of "off the club", pointing to the ground. Whaddya think? I seems to function similarly to the "claw", but easier on my ailing back, since I don’t have to bend over quite so much. jmkanes
The Tour Championship is not a TPC event. Are you referring to (T)he (P)layers (C)hampionship? Different event. That one’s held in March at the (T)ournament (P)layers (C)lub at Sawgrass in Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida. Champions is an old-style, traditional course, not a TPC (Tournament Players Club). For a list of TPC courses throughout the country, go to www.tpc.com. Most are owned and managed by the TOUR. A couple are franchises (TPC at Las Colinas in Irving, TX is one, I forget the other.) As for your putting grip, I’m always in favor of whatever works. I have my ways, and I recommend them to others who are struggling to find something that works. I do happen to believe there are certain fundamentals that, all thing being equal, are best adhered to. But putting is easily the most personal part of the game. Different strokes for different folks. Traditional, reverse overlap, Vardon, ten-finger, left-hand low, Langer’s contortion, the claw, belly, long wand, sidesaddle. It seems at times as if there are nearly as many permutations of putting strokes as there are players. Consistency is the key. If what you’re doing works for two weeks and then goes south on you, then I would recommend a return to fundamentals. But if it works for you consistently over time, then I can think of no reason to recommend changing it. Whatever works. Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, except this isn’t a TPC course. It’s a traditional course. Champions Golf Club. And for those still pulling for Tiger to make a run for the title (and the money title), he’s got a long way to go. But he has won at Champions before. That was the year they took Friday off to fly back to Orlando for the Payne Stewart funeral. An unforgettable week. Looks like Charles Howell, who, as some may recall, had a putt to tie Vijay on the 72nd hole last year at East Lake (which he missed), is determined to close the deal this year. Randy I don’t like Charles Howell’s chances too much – yesterday he hit an eight iron 180 yds. Judy Rankin commented that she has yet to see him hit an iron shot at less than *full power*. I don’t think he can go 72 holes on that basis without a triple bogey. By the way, I thought this was the TPC, so that the course it is played on is the TPC course. There’s something I don’t understand here. What’s a TPC course? Also Randy, I have experimented my way to a new right hand putting grip – the right hand grips the club only with the thumb, with the fingers sort of "off the club", pointing to the ground. Whaddya think? I seems to function similarly to the "claw", but easier on my ailing back, since I don’t have to bend over quite so much. jmkanes
I have been playing for 2 years and my handicap is about 18, so bogey golf most of the time unless the short game is great that round. I am about 6′1 190LB and my drives only go about 225-235. My 150 club is my 6 iron. I am currently playing with cleveland ta3’s. I need some lessons to chop down on the ball with my short irons instead of scooping it. Anyone have any tips or know a good golf pro with my body build to help me develop my swing
No good suggestions unfortunately, but if you find someone good (also in LA area) then post it here and let me know 8^). Sounds pretty similar to my game distance-wise. I’ve been playing about 4 years now and my handicap’s a little lower at about 13. But my swing has been off the last month or so and I could really use a good pro. I’ve seen a couple of different teachers with some decent results, but no one that I’d really say I liked. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been playing for 2 years and my handicap is about 18, so bogey golf most of the time unless the short game is great that round. I am about 6′1 190LB and my drives only go about 225-235. My 150 club is my 6 iron. I am currently playing with cleveland ta3’s. I need some lessons to chop down on the ball with my short irons instead of scooping it. Anyone have any tips or know a good golf pro with my body build to help me develop my swing
Hi Jim, Thanks for your response. Made some good points and I’ll take heart (and note)! BTW, what do you play off? Surely you are a scratch marker? I think you need a round where you recover to a near personal best final result, personally. Or something like it.
I’m getting closer to that since the last post. I think my problem as mentioned in my little story, came from a simple error in technique on the short stuff that made me very susceptible to the ‘yips’. I’ve had a lesson since on just that and now the technique is far more solid. Lots of drills, chipping the ball around the house (my SO loooooves me for it) and now I’m looking at those shorter shots with confidence. I don’t often completely fall apart two holes in a row any more, but I used to, a lot. When I do, it’s because I’m doing something outrageous with my swing repeatedly, but it’s a mechanical problem, normally, when things really go south. But it wasn’t always so, as I’ve said.
Yes, this is a concern. My mental side is probably not that bad – I have many years of competitive A-grade sports behind me. It’s the inexplicable that I’ve perhaps let get under the skin. There is however, IMHO, no substitute for a solid technique – gives you a greater margin when those butterflies appear! What did it for me were rounds that gradually gave me a habit of hope. Perhaps I was just maximizing too much before, thinking that perfection had escaped me yet another day, and a bad hole just ruined a perfect day and so forth. As you note, it’s not the bad hole that killed you, it was the bad holes afterward. So you need a round where that doesn’t happen, where there is a memorable success at bouncing back from adversity. I have quite a few now, where once there were none, and I don’t seem to react that way any more at all.
Good points here – can try too hard to make the perfect shot every shot and raise expectations too far. To wit, I was four over after six one day, then all of a sudden, I had finished the round with a 3 under 69. Just amazing. First time I had broken seventy on that course, too, after a LOT of tries! And then, one year, I really pulled it out, after missing a two foot birdie on the first hole of the final round of the club championship, I frenzied myself into a *hard* triple on the second, then three putted the third from 10 feet. I walked over to my SO, playing the third behind me on her way to victory in the women’s section. I was pale, shaken. My lead was gone. She calmed me down, telling me that I just had to play normal and I’d win. So shot two under the rest of the way and won by seven! 8^)
Nice stuff. I’ve had similar – including a club matchplay final in the playoffs, where I was behind and things seemed to be against me all the way. I turned off the negative thoughts and dropped a tough bunker shot. The poor guy, who’d almost asked me to concede at 4up after 13 (arrogant bastard) watched me string 3 birds in a row and kick his sad ass into next week on the 18th! That felt good… (but was a few years ago!). But maybe you don’t need to have one under your belt. Look on it as a challenge! "Christ with a bad stance! I shot even par on the back after tripling the tenth! Whodathunkit?" Anyhow, the best medicine may be to try to birdie in after a disaster, even if you’ve never actually done it yet. It’s a lot better attitude than being afraid you’re going to have another bad hole.
It sure is hard to string 18 well thought out and considered holes in a row. Solid technique certainly helps, and especially at times when you are feeling a bit nervous – lobbing off a poor lie, over a bunker to a green sloping away with only a few yards to play with… :) Cheers, Dave E
I’m a high handicapper, but, for what it’s worth… I have to remind myself after a bad hole that the next tee is the start of a new hole, entirely independent of what happened previously, and that one bad hole doesn’t translate into a bad score for the whole game.
"Missing a short putt does not mean that you have to hit your next drive out of bounds." – Henry Cotton (quote from memory, may be slightly incorrect) — http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=hayesd
I’m a high handicapper, but, for what it’s worth… I have to remind myself after a bad hole that the next tee is the start of a new hole, entirely independent of what happened previously, and that one bad hole doesn’t translate into a bad score for the whole game.
Hi Eliyahu, Indeed. That’s why matchplay is such a different game, and one I’ve won on a number of times in local comps. :) I guess I’d love to understand how to manage the psyche that seems to take control when you do something unforgivable and explicable. I have a relatively low handicap game on a mechanical front – good swing, consistency, solid short game etc. and it’s taken years to get there. It is the sudden collapse, usually 1/2 way coming home that is pushing the scoring upwards. Why, lord help me… why??? Cheers, Dave E
I’m a high handicapper, but, for what it’s worth… I have to remind myself after a bad hole that the next tee is the start of a new hole, entirely independent of what happened previously, and that one bad hole doesn’t translate into a bad score for the whole game.
What’s harder to remember is that in medal (stroke) play, the 6th shot on the hole you’re on is independent of what happened previously, and that your previous 5 strokes don’t mean you have to hole out to salvage this hole. It’s just as much a new game as the next hole will be – and needs to be played that way.
[Sad, sad stuff…know the feelin’ I’ve read Shapiro’s book on the mental game, and have read "The Inner Game of Golf", but it may be more useful to seek insight from you low markers on how you keep the bad shots from bending your mind during a game. Any links would be greatly useful. Cheers, David E
I think you need a round where you recover to a near personal best final result, personally. Or something like it. I don’t often completely fall apart two holes in a row any more, but I used to, a lot. When I do, it’s because I’m doing something outrageous with my swing repeatedly, but it’s a mechanical problem, normally, when things really go south. But it wasn’t always so, as I’ve said. What did it for me were rounds that gradually gave me a habit of hope. Perhaps I was just maximizing too much before, thinking that perfection had escaped me yet another day, and a bad hole just ruined a perfect day and so forth. As you note, it’s not the bad hole that killed you, it was the bad holes afterward. So you need a round where that doesn’t happen, where there is a memorable success at bouncing back from adversity. I have quite a few now, where once there were none, and I don’t seem to react that way any more at all. To wit, I was four over after six one day, then all of a sudden, I had finished the round with a 3 under 69. Just amazing. First time I had broken seventy on that course, too, after a LOT of tries! And then, one year, I really pulled it out, after missing a two foot birdie on the first hole of the final round of the club championship, I frenzied myself into a *hard* triple on the second, then three putted the third from 10 feet. I walked over to my SO, playing the third behind me on her way to victory in the women’s section. I was pale, shaken. My lead was gone. She calmed me down, telling me that I just had to play normal and I’d win. So shot two under the rest of the way and won by seven! 8^) But maybe you don’t need to have one under your belt. Look on it as a challenge! "Christ with a bad stance! I shot even par on the back after tripling the tenth! Whodathunkit?" Anyhow, the best medicine may be to try to birdie in after a disaster, even if you’ve never actually done it yet. It’s a lot better attitude than being afraid you’re going to have another bad hole.
Hi all – this is my first post to rsg and so cheers from Sydney, Australia. I was off 7 about 4 mths ago but have blown out to 12.4 since having my game pulled apart by one of this country’s top coaches. I require enormous volumes of patience right now, let me tell you. Time should hopefully bring the rewards of all my endless work – aiming to be down to 5 in early ‘04. BTW – I’m sure the coach’s work is going to take me to the next level – how else would I sleep at night after the endless $$ and time thrown into this new direction?? :) One thing eludes me though – this is the element that’s not related to the mechanics of striking the ball. I would be interested to hear a few comments from you very low ‘cappers. A recent example (I’m sure we’ve all been there…): On Monday I played Riverside Oaks – a fairly long (by Sydney standards) resort-style course. At 2 over through 11, I’d played a great tee shot on 12 – a par 5 dogleg left with water on the right on approach. I was left with a relatively easy 3-iron to the green for possible eagle – great ball location/lie etc. I hit 2 identical fades/slices which rolled into the water before putting the 3rd ball to within 10 feet. This was not a hard shot but I stood there feeling like I’d just lost a close relative. The illogical nature of such a terrible lapse weighed heavily and I ended up triple and double-double, 7 shots in 3 holes. From the moment I hit the 2nd ball into the drink, it was as if I knew I was about to play shocking golf for the rest of the round. Not being a club thrower or dummy spitter, it is crazy to me that I find it so hard to recover from an ‘illogical’ hole and think that perhaps these things happen in the first place because I expect to have a collapse at some point during a round. Normally I lose all my shots on a string of 2 or 3 very bad holes, usually after playing very good golf. The other day in a comp, I had 4 birdies but ended up with 31 points, thanks to 16-18 being shockers! How is that possible?? I’ve read Shapiro’s book on the mental game, and have read "The Inner Game of Golf", but it may be more useful to seek insight from you low markers on how you keep the bad shots from bending your mind during a game. Any links would be greatly useful. Cheers, David E
The other side of golf? Is that the side that’s NOT racist, sexist, eliteist, exclusionary, and pompous? Oh, and bald?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all – this is my first post to rsg and so cheers from Sydney, Australia. I was off 7 about 4 mths ago but have blown out to 12.4 since having my game pulled apart by one of this country’s top coaches. I require enormous volumes of patience right now, let me tell you. Time should hopefully bring the rewards of all my endless work – aiming to be down to 5 in early ‘04. BTW – I’m sure the coach’s work is going to take me to the next level – how else would I sleep at night after the endless $$ and time thrown into this new direction?? :) One thing eludes me though – this is the element that’s not related to the mechanics of striking the ball. I would be interested to hear a few comments from you very low ‘cappers. A recent example (I’m sure we’ve all been there…): On Monday I played Riverside Oaks – a fairly long (by Sydney standards) resort-style course. At 2 over through 11, I’d played a great tee shot on 12 – a par 5 dogleg left with water on the right on approach. I was left with a relatively easy 3-iron to the green for possible eagle – great ball location/lie etc. I hit 2 identical fades/slices which rolled into the water before putting the 3rd ball to within 10 feet. This was not a hard shot but I stood there feeling like I’d just lost a close relative. The illogical nature of such a terrible lapse weighed heavily and I ended up triple and double-double, 7 shots in 3 holes. From the moment I hit the 2nd ball into the drink, it was as if I knew I was about to play shocking golf for the rest of the round. Not being a club thrower or dummy spitter, it is crazy to me that I find it so hard to recover from an ‘illogical’ hole and think that perhaps these things happen in the first place because I expect to have a collapse at some point during a round. Normally I lose all my shots on a string of 2 or 3 very bad holes, usually after playing very good golf. The other day in a comp, I had 4 birdies but ended up with 31 points, thanks to 16-18 being shockers! How is that possible?? I’ve read Shapiro’s book on the mental game, and have read "The Inner Game of Golf", but it may be more useful to seek insight from you low markers on how you keep the bad shots from bending your mind during a game. Any links would be greatly useful.
I’m a high handicapper, but, for what it’s worth… I have to remind myself after a bad hole that the next tee is the start of a new hole, entirely independent of what happened previously, and that one bad hole doesn’t translate into a bad score for the whole game. Eliyahu