Question:
Right, it was four-ball. I guess the point of the question wasn’t a Rules interpretation. I know what is SUPPOSED to happen. I’m supposed to put a ball where my ball was when it was discover that someone else hit it, but in a practical sense, (since I would have been beaten over the head with a 4 iron if I went back and held up the group behind us), what would you do?
You could have let the group behind through and then go back and continue to play. In fact you should have let them through already when you started searching for your ball. /marek
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m assuming that he/they looked for his ball for 5 mins+ What I wrote stands – it is a lost ball. He could go an play 3 off the tee or is out of the hole. If he’d only looked for 2 mins then it’s a different story. Please read me earlier post. My reasoning builds on the fact that if he didn’t search for more than 5 minutes, the ball is not lost. But if he searched for less than 5 minutes and then his father hit the his ball, it was in fact found but not identified. And identification can take place after 5 minutes have elapsed, see decision xx. If however he searched for more than 5 minutes, you are quite correct, the ball is definitely lost. You cannot then declare a ball lost. If it’s found, it’s in play. I don’t know the rule #s off hand but thay are facts. Yes, I agree. /marek
Sorry Marek I can’t have read it properly!
Response:
In my original reply I had forgotten that this was a team match, that’s why I stated that Larry’s concession did not count. However Tom Fenton reminded me that it was a TEAM match, so I was wrong, Larry could concede, and that is exactly what he did: "So I take myself out of the hole." This is a concession and once offered cannot be withdrawn or refused. See Rule 2-4. Larry is out of the hole, as is his father. The other two players continue.
I see now that you are right. I thought that when playing fourball match, that the team plays stroke play between themselves and that the cant concede the hole until both players have don’t have the change of doing a good enough score. But reading Rule 30, I see now that the players play under match play rules, and a concession cannot be taken back as you correctly point out (Rule 2-4). /marek
Response:
I’m assuming that he/they looked for his ball for 5 mins+ What I wrote stands – it is a lost ball. He could go an play 3 off the tee or is out of the hole. If he’d only looked for 2 mins then it’s a different story.
Please read me earlier post. My reasoning builds on the fact that if he didn’t search for more than 5 minutes, the ball is not lost. But if he searched for less than 5 minutes and then his father hit the his ball, it was in fact found but not identified. And identification can take place after 5 minutes have elapsed, see decision xx. If however he searched for more than 5 minutes, you are quite correct, the ball is definitely lost. You cannot then declare a ball lost. If it’s found, it’s in play. I don’t know the rule #s off hand but thay are facts.
Yes, I agree. /marek
Response:
Right, it was four-ball. I guess the point of the question wasn’t a Rules interpretation. I know what is SUPPOSED to happen. I’m supposed to put a ball where my ball was when it was discover that someone else hit it, but in a practical sense, (since I would have been beaten over the head with a 4 iron if I went back and held up the group behind us), what would you do? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wrong!! I assume by "team best ball" Larry means ROG 30 "Four-Ball: A match in which two play their better ball against the better ball of two other players. " His father is toast, but his father’s partner is still alive. ROG 30-3/d.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Incorrect. He declared himself out of the hole ie ball was lost. You can’t change your mind because you then find or your dad’s played your ball. I disagree, but you can easily convince me if you can you tell me what Rule you base that upon. 
/marek
This is what Larry wrote in his original post: "Sunday, playing team best ball, 18th hole, match tied on the back. We all drive up and over this hill, (kinda a blind shot). Drive up there, my opponent (who happens to be my Dad) hits his shot. Other two players hit their shot, but I cannot find my ball. Should be right in the middle of the fairway. I’m pissed that I can’t find it. So I take myself out of the hole." In my original reply I had forgotten that this was a team match, that’s why I stated that Larry’s concession did not count. However Tom Fenton reminded me that it was a TEAM match, so I was wrong, Larry could concede, and that is exactly what he did: "So I take myself out of the hole." This is a concession and once offered cannot be withdrawn or refused. See Rule 2-4. Larry is out of the hole, as is his father. The other two players continue. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
Response:
Incorrect. He declared himself out of the hole ie ball was lost. You can’t change your mind because you then find or your dad’s played your ball. I disagree, but you can easily convince me if you can you tell me what Rule you base that upon.
I’m assuming that he/they looked for his ball for 5 mins+ What I wrote stands – it is a lost ball. He could go an play 3 off the tee or is out of the hole. If he’d only looked for 2 mins then it’s a different story. You cannot then declare a ball lost. If it’s found, it’s in play. I don’t know the rule #s off hand but thay are facts.
Response:
Incorrect. He declared himself out of the hole ie ball was lost. You can’t change your mind because you then find or your dad’s played your ball.
I disagree, but you can easily convince me if you can you tell me what Rule you base that upon. /marek
Response:
In match play playing the wrong ball is a loss of hole penalty. Your father lost the hole as soon as he played a stroke at your ball. Since the hole was already over, you could not have conceded. See Decision 2-4/9. Your only hope would’ve been if Sergio had come running up the 18th fairway. Then maybe you could’ve gotten a halve out of it.
…or the american team and all the spectators invade the green and the fairway before it’s your turn to putt. /marek
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m fumbling in the dark a bit here and may be totally wrong, but Decision 27/5.5 suggests that the identification of a ball can be done after the five minutes search has elapsed. <snipped There is no question as to the identification of the ball. It was flatly stated that the father played the wrong ball. The son chose to remove himself from the play of the hole. How long he spent looking for the ball is irrelevant. The father was out of the hole as soon as he hit his son’s ball and the son was out as soon as he declared himself out (i.e., conceded his score). To my knowledge there is nothing in the rules about "conceded his score". You don’t do that in stroke play. You can concede the hole or the match. It’s stroke play between the son and his father – then it’s match play between the teams. Or am I wrong here? The way I reason is that if not more than 5 minutes have elapsed from the time they *started* to search for it to the moment the son finds his ball after the father has played it, the situation is quite clear. The son can replace his ball and play it. I more than 5 minutes have elapsed, the situation is more difficult, but I argue that the ball was found *before* 5 minutes have elapsed but identified *after* 5 minutes have elapsed – and that is ok too! I do agree however that the father lost the hole the same moment he played the wrong ball. So it’s up to the son to produce a score on the hole. The outcome of the hole will be determined by the 2 other players.
Incorrect. He declared himself out of the hole ie ball was lost. You can’t change your mind because you then find or your dad’s played your ball.
Response:
I’m fumbling in the dark a bit here and may be totally wrong, but Decision 27/5.5 suggests that the identification of a ball can be done after the five minutes search has elapsed. <snipped There is no question as to the identification of the ball. It was flatly stated that the father played the wrong ball. The son chose to remove himself from the play of the hole. How long he spent looking for the ball is irrelevant. The father was out of the hole as soon as he hit his son’s ball and the son was out as soon as he declared himself out (i.e., conceded his score).
To my knowledge there is nothing in the rules about "conceded his score". You don’t do that in stroke play. You can concede the hole or the match. It’s stroke play between the son and his father – then it’s match play between the teams. Or am I wrong here? The way I reason is that if not more than 5 minutes have elapsed from the time they *started* to search for it to the moment the son finds his ball after the father has played it, the situation is quite clear. The son can replace his ball and play it. I more than 5 minutes have elapsed, the situation is more difficult, but I argue that the ball was found *before* 5 minutes have elapsed but identified *after* 5 minutes have elapsed – and that is ok too! I do agree however that the father lost the hole the same moment he played the wrong ball. So it’s up to the son to produce a score on the hole. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The outcome of the hole will be determined by the 2 other players. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
Response:
The statement in your post "Your father lost the hole as soon as he played a stroke at your ball" is wrong. In a best ball match, he is DQed for the hole, but the hole isn’t over until the fat lady sings.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wrong!! I assume by "team best ball" Larry means ROG 30 "Four-Ball: A match in which two play their better ball against the better ball of two other players. " His father is toast, but his father’s partner is still alive. ROG 30-3/d. It depends on which player actually won the hole. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
Response:
In match play playing the wrong ball is a loss of hole penalty. Your father lost the hole as soon as he played a stroke at your ball. Since the hole was already over, you could not have conceded. See Decision 2-4/9.
Your only hope would’ve been if Sergio had come running up the 18th fairway. Then maybe you could’ve gotten a halve out of it.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Decision 27/5.5 suggests that maybe player A can still see this as his ball in play, because he has not spent more than 5 minutes of searching for it, but identified it after 5 minutes, but that is perfectly ok. So what he needs to do is to drop the ball on a spot from where player B played it and continue playing it. My reasoning builds on the assumptions that the hole and match hasn’t been conceded at that point…in that case, it’s too late. And that he hasn’t put another ball in play. ??
Yes, correct. /marek
Response:
Decision 27/5.5 suggests that maybe player A can still see this as his ball in play, because he has not spent more than 5 minutes of searching for it, but identified it after 5 minutes, but that is perfectly ok. So what he needs to do is to drop the ball on a spot from where player B played it and continue playing it. My reasoning builds on the assumptions that the hole and match hasn’t been conceded at that point…in that case, it’s too late.
And that he hasn’t put another ball in play. ??
Response:
I’m fumbling in the dark a bit here and may be totally wrong, but Decision 27/5.5 suggests that the identification of a ball can be done after the five minutes search has elapsed.
<snipped There is no question as to the identification of the ball. It was flatly stated that the father played the wrong ball. The son chose to remove himself from the play of the hole. How long he spent looking for the ball is irrelevant. The father was out of the hole as soon as he hit his son’s ball and the son was out as soon as he declared himself out (i.e., conceded his score). The outcome of the hole will be determined by the 2 other players. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
Response:
Wrong!! I assume by "team best ball" Larry means ROG 30 "Four-Ball: A match in which two play their better ball against the better ball of two other players. " His father is toast, but his father’s partner is still alive. ROG 30-3/d.
It depends on which player actually won the hole. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
Response:
Wrong!! I assume by "team best ball" Larry means ROG 30 "Four-Ball: A match in which two play their better ball against the better ball of two other players. " His father is toast, but his father’s partner is still alive. ROG 30-3/d.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sunday, playing team best ball, 18th hole, match tied on the back. We all drive up and over this hill, (kinda a blind shot). Drive up there, my opponent (who happens to be my Dad) hits his shot. Other two players hit their shot, but I cannot find my ball. Should be right in the middle of the fairway. I’m pissed that I can’t find it. So I take myself out of the hole. Come to find out my Dad hit my ball. Now, I know the rules say that I could go back and hit my shot, but the rules don’t always take into consideration public golf and the fact that you just can’t go back sometimes. The people behind us were already waiting while we searched for my ball. So what would you do? We ended up losing the hole. In match play playing the wrong ball is a loss of hole penalty. Your father lost the hole as soon as he played a stroke at your ball. Since the hole was already over, you could not have conceded. See Decision 2-4/9. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sunday, playing team best ball, 18th hole, match tied on the back. We all drive up and over this hill, (kinda a blind shot). Drive up there, my opponent (who happens to be my Dad) hits his shot. Other two players hit their shot, but I cannot find my ball. Should be right in the middle of the fairway. I’m pissed that I can’t find it. So I take myself out of the hole. Come to find out my Dad hit my ball. Now, I know the rules say that I could go back and hit my shot, but the rules don’t always take into consideration public golf and the fact that you just can’t go back sometimes. The people behind us were already waiting while we searched for my ball. So what would you do? We ended up losing the hole. In match play playing the wrong ball is a loss of hole penalty. Your father lost the hole as soon as he played a stroke at your ball. Since the hole was already over, you could not have conceded. See Decision 2-4/9. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
I’m fumbling in the dark a bit here and may be totally wrong, but Decision 27/5.5 suggests that the identification of a ball can be done after the five minutes search has elapsed. http://www.usga.com/rules/rules_2002_03/decisions/dec27.html#27/5.5 I mean, in the following scenario: 1. Player A searches 2 minutes for his ball and stops searching. 2. Player B plays what he things is his ball but in fact is player A’s ball. 3. Player A identifies 10 minutes later that the ball played by player B is player A’s ball. Decision 27/5.5 suggests that maybe player A can still see this as his ball in play, because he has not spent more than 5 minutes of searching for it, but identified it after 5 minutes, but that is perfectly ok. So what he needs to do is to drop the ball on a spot from where player B played it and continue playing it. My reasoning builds on the assumptions that the hole and match hasn’t been conceded at that point…in that case, it’s too late. /marek
Response:
Sunday, playing team best ball, 18th hole, match tied on the back. We all drive up and over this hill, (kinda a blind shot). Drive up there, my opponent (who happens to be my Dad) hits his shot. Other two players hit their shot, but I cannot find my ball. Should be right in the middle of the fairway. I’m pissed that I can’t find it. So I take myself out of the hole. Come to find out my Dad hit my ball. Now, I know the rules say that I could go back and hit my shot, but the rules don’t always take into consideration public golf and the fact that you just can’t go back sometimes. The people behind us were already waiting while we searched for my ball. So what would you do? We ended up losing the hole.
In match play playing the wrong ball is a loss of hole penalty. Your father lost the hole as soon as he played a stroke at your ball. Since the hole was already over, you could not have conceded. See Decision 2-4/9. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
Response:
Sunday, playing team best ball, 18th hole, match tied on the back. We all drive up and over this hill, (kinda a blind shot). Drive up there, my opponent (who happens to be my Dad) hits his shot. Other two players hit their shot, but I cannot find my ball. Should be right in the middle of the fairway. I’m pissed that I can’t find it. So I take myself out of the hole. Come to find out my Dad hit my ball. Now, I know the rules say that I could go back and hit my shot, but the rules don’t always take into consideration public golf and the fact that you just can’t go back sometimes. The people behind us were already waiting while we searched for my ball. So what would you do? We ended up losing the hole.
You ‘took yourself out of the hole’ ie declared the ball lost. You can’t *do* anything. Your Dad has to play his original ball under penalty for hitting a wrong ball.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sunday, playing team best ball, 18th hole, match tied on the back. We all drive up and over this hill, (kinda a blind shot). Drive up there, my opponent (who happens to be my Dad) hits his shot. Other two players hit their shot, but I cannot find my ball. Should be right in the middle of the fairway. I’m pissed that I can’t find it. So I take myself out of the hole. Come to find out my Dad hit my ball. Now, I know the rules say that I could go back and hit my shot, but the rules don’t always take into consideration public golf and the fact that you just can’t go back sometimes. The people behind us were already waiting while we searched for my ball. So what would you do? We ended up losing the hole. You ‘took yourself out of the hole’ ie declared the ball lost. You can’t *do* anything. Your Dad has to play his original ball under penalty for hitting a wrong ball.
You did exactly what you should do. You lost the hole. In best ball, with one lost and one hitting the wrong ball, you suck it up and say "good match." — Doug Main Doug Main Media 780-434-8961
Response:
Sunday, playing team best ball, 18th hole, match tied on the back. We all drive up and over this hill, (kinda a blind shot). Drive up there, my opponent (who happens to be my Dad) hits his shot. Other two players hit their shot, but I cannot find my ball. Should be right in the middle of the fairway. I’m pissed that I can’t find it. So I take myself out of the hole. Come to find out my Dad hit my ball. Now, I know the rules say that I could go back and hit my shot, but the rules don’t always take into consideration public golf and the fact that you just can’t go back sometimes. The people behind us were already waiting while we searched for my ball. So what would you do? We ended up losing the hole.