- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, I notice the same thing, very annoying. Is channel 2 the worst offender? Channel 2? Are you not aware that the people providing golf coverage are not the folks who work at your local affiliate station, Channel 2, but the network to which Channel 2 is affiliated? Randy
These complaints come every year. Remember, this is the Pebble Beach Pro-Am. That means Romano, Murray, Devane, Woods, Eastwood et al are out in full force. It also means CBS will cover the EVENT, not just the golf competition aspect of it. That means pictures of dogs chasing balls, whales cruising, waves crashing, seals frolicking, autograph hounds mobbing, movie starts shanking all mixed in with professional golfers competing. Just suck it up and realize this is the last such event until the Hope, 51 weeks from now. Real golf resumes next week in San Diego. — Doug Main "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."
Does anyone else think the coverage is crappy ? They show one shot…go to commercial…another two shots….some scenery…then to commercial. I’ve seen much more of de la Hoya than I care to see…how about showing some real golf ? CBS is just as bad, they won;t show Mike Weir unless he eagles…last week it was Herron then Haas then off to commercial…hey how about Mike…he did win the freakin’ thing ??
Yep, I notice the same thing, very annoying. Is channel 2 the worst offender? At least we can actually watch a little golf during the Masters. -L << Does anyone else think the coverage is crappy ? They show one shot…go to commercial…another two shots….some scenery…then to commercial. I’ve seen much more of de la Hoya than I care to see…how about showing some real golf ? CBS is just as bad, they won;t show Mike Weir unless he eagles…last week it was Herron then Haas then off to commercial…hey how about Mike…he did win the freakin’ thing ??
Yep, I notice the same thing, very annoying. Is channel 2 the worst offender?
Channel 2? Are you not aware that the people providing golf coverage are not the folks who work at your local affiliate station, Channel 2, but the network to which Channel 2 is affiliated? Randy
<snippage Great post Brett, thanks for sharing. — bill-o
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Should I make the effort (don’t think it would be huge) to build the ability to make a "3/4 swing independent of the target"? Opinions/experiences here? My concern is that I would negatively impact my ‘feel’ for chip/pitch shots. Over the past 6 months my handicap has bounced around between 9.5 and 11.5 and I would not judge my chipping/pitching to be significantly better or worse than you might expect from such a handicap. I’m not as good a golfer as you are (assuming "good" is in terms of ability to shoot a score). But here’s my take on the whole Dave Pelz way of approaching the short game: 1) I’m not convinced that learning to compute an exact, to-the-yard distance for every shot and learning to hit each of my wedges a set of exact, to-the-yard distance and then matching wedge and swing and yardage on each shot is necessarily the route to me shooting better scores. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, I’ll never know. 2) I have no interest in pacing off exact yardages inside 75 yards or in practicing a set of rigidly prescribed partial swings with each club. Even if I believed it would take 5 shots off my handicap I still wouldn’t do it because it’s boring and anxiety-producing. 3) There are very, very good golfers who eyeball their partial-wedge shots and hit them close. There are very, very good golfers who use the Dave Pelz system. In either case, those aren’t people like me who took the game up as an adult and play golf once or twice a week. 4) If I had a "yardage number" and a "partial-swing distance" in my head for a shot and all I needed to do was "execute a perfect 10:30 swing", I would be so focused on the mechanics of that "perfect 10:30 swing" that I would be distracted from the flow of the game to the detriment of my performance on full swings, putts and everything else. 5) I love practicing 40-yard wedge shots with a variety of clubs so that will have to serve as my wedge-game development. I don’t, in fact, really care whether it’s an optimum strategy for golfers in general as long as it work well enough for me to keep improving my game and having fun. All FWIW. Brent Hutto
Brent, you have great perception for an "average" golfer. I’ve been struggling with the mechanical feel of the Pelz system for almost two years…I’m going back to my personal feel for distances with 3 wedges instead of 4 and going to start having fun again (if it ever stops raining 
thanks, — Dave Jones RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=jonesd
Should I make the effort (don’t think it would be huge) to build the ability to make a "3/4 swing independent of the target"? Opinions/experiences here? My concern is that I would negatively impact my ‘feel’ for chip/pitch shots. Over the past 6 months my handicap has bounced around between 9.5 and 11.5 and I would not judge my chipping/pitching to be significantly better or worse than you might expect from such a handicap.
I’m not as good a golfer as you are (assuming "good" is in terms of ability to shoot a score). But here’s my take on the whole Dave Pelz way of approaching the short game: 1) I’m not convinced that learning to compute an exact, to-the-yard distance for every shot and learning to hit each of my wedges a set of exact, to-the-yard distance and then matching wedge and swing and yardage on each shot is necessarily the route to me shooting better scores. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, I’ll never know. 2) I have no interest in pacing off exact yardages inside 75 yards or in practicing a set of rigidly prescribed partial swings with each club. Even if I believed it would take 5 shots off my handicap I still wouldn’t do it because it’s boring and anxiety-producing. 3) There are very, very good golfers who eyeball their partial-wedge shots and hit them close. There are very, very good golfers who use the Dave Pelz system. In either case, those aren’t people like me who took the game up as an adult and play golf once or twice a week. 4) If I had a "yardage number" and a "partial-swing distance" in my head for a shot and all I needed to do was "execute a perfect 10:30 swing", I would be so focused on the mechanics of that "perfect 10:30 swing" that I would be distracted from the flow of the game to the detriment of my performance on full swings, putts and everything else. 5) I love practicing 40-yard wedge shots with a variety of clubs so that will have to serve as my wedge-game development. I don’t, in fact, really care whether it’s an optimum strategy for golfers in general as long as it work well enough for me to keep improving my game and having fun. All FWIW. Brent Hutto
I have a question regarding how to develop ‘feel’. By ‘feel’ I am specifically referring to the ability to gauge how far the ball will travel when struck with less than a full swing. The most notable examples being lag putts, chip shots, and pitch shots. This question is in the context of chip/pitch shots. My query started with my reaction to Dave Pelz short game book where he recommended learning how far you hit the ball with your various wedges using 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 etc. swings. Of course Dave P. will overwhelm you with data, but I have to admit that his logic and data was compelling. I tried to implement his approach and had a real problem in doing so. I found myself unable to separate my swing and the target. By this I mean that put me in front of a target (with recognition of the target) and I am no longer able to determine "what is a 3/4 swing". I started my calibration targeted to a pitching green and realized that this didn’t work. What I felt to be a 1/4 swing (for example) was a function of where the target was and the club I was swinging. I ended up at the local trotting track (available to golfers in the off-season) hitting from the edge of the track ‘down the track’. In this case, of course, there was no target (hell, you couldn’t even invent one). In this case I was able to execute a "1/2 swing" on a fairly consistent basis. But put me back on the course, put a target in front of my eyes, and ask me to hit a ‘1/2 swing’ – I just can’t do it. I suspect that if I worked really hard I could develop a "target independent feel" for a 1/2 swing (for example), but I wonder if this would really be an effort at reducing my feel for the game. Another example of this was at a golf school when the teaching pro was (at that time) videoing pitch shots. There was a flag roughly 70 yards down the fairway and he asked me to make a "3/4 swing toward that flag" using my LW. For me a full swing LW is somewhere around 70-75 yards so I aimed at that target and made a (in my mind at that time) a 3/4 swing. It was a good swing as the ball landed just a tad short of the pin, but as the pro mentioned on analyzing the video "that was a whole lot more than a 3/4 swing". It felt like a 3/4 swing when I made it, but I realized it wasn’t when I saw the ball flight. Should I make the effort (don’t think it would be huge) to build the ability to make a "3/4 swing independent of the target"? Opinions/experiences here? My concern is that I would negatively impact my ‘feel’ for chip/pitch shots. Over the past 6 months my handicap has bounced around between 9.5 and 11.5 and I would not judge my chipping/pitching to be significantly better or worse than you might expect from such a handicap. Thanks. dave
<snip Should I make the effort (don’t think it would be huge) to build the ability to make a "3/4 swing independent of the target"? Opinions/experiences here? My concern is that I would negatively impact my ‘feel’ for chip/pitch shots. Over the past 6 months my handicap has bounced around between 9.5 and 11.5 and I would not judge my chipping/pitching to be significantly better or worse than you might expect from such a handicap. Thanks. dave
This is a good question and I’ll give you my 2 cents. Dave Pelz’s approach is fine if you have time to practice *every day*. I found the system way too mechanical for a 1 1/2 round per week player like me and experienced many of the same frustrations that you had regarding Pelz. Stay target oriented and let your body hit the proper shot. My opinion is that you are much better committing (visualizing) to a certain shot and stick with it than spending months to dial in swings that you don’t have time to keep honed. We are not professional golfers and do not have the necessary time to devote to our games…. In truth, I think you’ll find that the best non-professional players in r.s.g. (and probably any muni in the world) are complete feel players. They trust their eyes as much as the yardage plates, they’d rather choke down on a 9 iron than use a 9 o’clock 7 iron swing, etc. Good luck. Scott
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My query started with my reaction to Dave Pelz short game book where he recommended learning how far you hit the ball with your various wedges using 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 etc. swings. Of course Dave P. will overwhelm you with data, but I have to admit that his logic and data was compelling. I tried to implement his approach and had a real problem in doing so. I found myself unable to separate my swing and the target. By this I mean that put me in front of a target (with recognition of the target) and I am no longer able to determine "what is a 3/4 swing". I started my calibration targeted to a pitching green and realized that this didn’t work. What I felt to be a 1/4 swing (for example) was a function of where the target was and the club I was swinging. I ended up at the local trotting track (available to golfers in the off-season) hitting from the edge of the track ‘down the track’. In this case, of course, there was no target (hell, you couldn’t even invent one). In this case I was able to execute a "1/2 swing" on a fairly consistent basis. But put me back on the course, put a target in front of my eyes, and ask me to hit a ‘1/2 swing’ – I just can’t do it. I suspect that if I worked really hard I could develop a "target independent feel" for a 1/2 swing (for example), but I wonder if this would really be an effort at reducing my feel for the game.
It’s good to have several options to use for each shot. Knowing how far your clubs usually go for 7:30, 9:00, and 10:30 swings and how choking down various distances also effects these distances is useful information to have. My approach is to use this information to choose which kind of shot to play. After choosing the club and swing, though, I rehearse the shot with practice swings until everything seems right and go purely on feel.
Make a lot of pitch shots. This is the reason why I don’t go for the 4 wedge system for pitches. I haven’t the time to really develop good feel with one club, let alone 4! I also find that once I get good feel with a club I have it for a variety of distances. When I was a kid, that club was a 7I. Today it is the LW on fast courses and SW on slower courses (ie dry/hard vs wet/soft). Rob, this is a different (but very related and very relevant) issue. Even if you did chose to hit all chip/pitch shots with a single club there is still the question of do you calibrate these strictly by feel or by knowing how far a "8:00 LW goes, etc.".
Knowing where it goes is feel. Your "8:00 LW" will not go the same distance every time with no feel. I see no point for me worrying about developing a consistent 8:00 LW and then having the feel for that shot to be the same every time, and then worrying about 9:00, 10:00 etc. I don’t want to start thinking about how far back I’m taking the club, I just want to hit the shot and trust my swing. My SW carries a little more and hits a little harder than my LW, so I use my SW when the course is soft and my LW when the course is hard. I’m happy to get the ball inside 10 feet, and I can use feel to do that most of the time. The more SW and LW pitches and chips I hit, the better my feel for the shot. Rob — GOP (Golf Only Pledge…I will only initiate golf related threads) Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~frostback2002)
Should I make the effort (don’t think it would be huge) to build the ability to make a "3/4 swing independent of the target"? Opinions/experiences here? My concern is that I would negatively impact my ‘feel’ for chip/pitch shots. — — — — — — — — — — Negatory! You obviously have eye/hand coordination to support your low scoring. When you are lying 35 to 40 yds. from the pin with a large bunker between you and the green, your eyes are telling your brain how much partial backswing to put on your LW. ‘Feel’. Until you lose it, don’t fix it. Just my $ .02
Make a lot of pitch shots. This is the reason why I don’t go for the 4 wedge system for pitches. I haven’t the time to really develop good feel with one club, let alone 4! I also find that once I get good feel with a club I have it for a variety of distances. When I was a kid, that club was a 7I. Today it is the LW on fast courses and SW on slower courses (ie dry/hard vs wet/soft).
Rob, this is a different (but very related and very relevant) issue. Even if you did chose to hit all chip/pitch shots with a single club there is still the question of do you calibrate these strictly by feel or by knowing how far a "8:00 LW goes, etc.". But I (like you) also used to have a single club that I used from 100 yards in (was my PW) back in days of much slower greens. I quit playing for 20 years and when I returned my intention was to use the same strategy with my LW (I now play fast, often elevated greens and a LW is essential in many cases). I abandoned that primarily because (it seemed to me) that the error for a minor mishit with a LW was bigger than for lower lofted clubs. Now from within 100 yards I will most often use the lowest lofted club (PW/SW/LW) I can get away way. dave
I have a question regarding how to develop ‘feel’. By ‘feel’ I am specifically referring to the ability to gauge how far the ball will travel when struck with less than a full swing. The most notable examples being lag putts, chip shots, and pitch shots. This question is in the context of chip/pitch shots.
Make a lot of pitch shots. This is the reason why I don’t go for the 4 wedge system for pitches. I haven’t the time to really develop good feel with one club, let alone 4! I also find that once I get good feel with a club I have it for a variety of distances. When I was a kid, that club was a 7I. Today it is the LW on fast courses and SW on slower courses (ie dry/hard vs wet/soft). Rob — GOP (Golf Only Pledge…I will only initiate golf related threads) Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS.html )
[...] Should I make the effort (don’t think it would be huge) to build the ability to make a "3/4 swing independent of the target"? Opinions/experiences here? My concern is that I would negatively impact my ‘feel’ for chip/pitch shots. Over the past 6 months my handicap has bounced around between 9.5 and 11.5 and I would not judge my chipping/pitching to be significantly better or worse than you might expect from such a handicap.
Of the two approaches–mechanical and feel–I don’t think there is a "right" answer. Some people are inclined one way and others the other way. I’ve always played by feel and could never do that measured, Pelz stuff, nor would I want to because I simply wouldn’t enjoy it. Others have had great success with it though. I just think you have to decide on a course for youraelf because there is no right answer. To develop feel, the answer is so simple: hit lots of shots. There is no short-cut that I know of. Compare it with riding a bicycle for the first time. To sit and think about it, it’s damn complicated! Once you have done it a few times it is easy and after 1000 times, you don’t even think of it any more. Feel is like that. When you practice, just remember that you need to ingrain muscle memory and that there are many types of shorts which all must be practiced. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * benewman at nbnet.nb.ca * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb http://go.to/bruce_newman
no i am talking about the likes of beam, funk, mickelson and calcaecchia. none of whom i mention appear to be in any kind of phsycial condition. u would think that golfers would take a page from players like duval and of course tiger woods and work on getting their bodies in better conditon. the same holds true for the women. there are not very many on the tour who would appear to be in any kind of good physical conditon
Have you ever been to a professional tournament – male or female? It doesn’t sound like it.
There is a reason that pro golfers typically live into their 80s and beyond and it is the walking. To say it is comparable to mowing your lawn is ridiculous.
What’s ridiculous is talking sense to a troll. That one is for flaming only.
now could someone tell me why a great many of these professional golfers
appear to be very much out shape and in some cases just downright fat. isn’t conditioning an important factor in golf
You seem to be equating "conditioning" with "thin". Not so. Each sport has its requirements. Golfers are relatively aerobically fit, walking miles every day, often on hilly terrain. They have strong muscles where it counts for golfers. Are they going to win Olympic marathons? No. Are Olympic marathoners going to win the US Open? No.
Well, let’s look at recent major winners. Tiger – in shape. Duval – in = shape. Ernie – in shape. Vijay – in shape. On the women. Annika – tall = and thin. I think anymore you can only get so far if you’re out of = shape. I think it becomes a factor.
Vijay’s in shape? In what world? I agree 100% with the others, but Vijay and Phil Mickelson are top players who aren’t in particularly good shape. OK sure, if you compare them with the average guy their age they are, but that’s a pretty damn low standard, at least in the US. I plan to be in better shape at 70 than those slobs are today. The male pros do seem to be on the average in better shape than the female pros. Dunno why, because as far as I seem to be able to recall from seeing bits of women’s events 20 years ago, they were in better shape then. Guess too many of them idolized Laura Davies or something. Anyway, being out of shape doesn’t seem to hurt one’s golf game. It isn’t like basketball or soccer where aerobic fitness is required, so being isn’t enough of a disadvantage to allow lesser skilled but more fit golfers to replace them on tour. — A good friend will help you move, a true friend will help you move a body.
Vijay’s in shape? In what world? I agree 100% with the others, but Vijay and Phil Mickelson are top players who aren’t in particularly good shape. OK sure, if you compare them with the average guy their age they are, but that’s a pretty damn low standard, at least in the US. I plan to be in better shape at 70 than those slobs are today.
How did you determine that they are out-of-shape slobs? Looks can be deceiving.
now could someone tell me why a great many of these professional golfers appear to be very much out shape and in some cases just downright fat. isn’t conditioning an important factor in golf
There are athletes in several sports who are fat. If your play requires you to run a lot, fat gets in your way. If it requires the ability to push someone around, fat can be beneficial. It doesn’t appear to make a tremendous amount of difference on the golf course. On the golf course, there appears to be an advantage to being big (within limits). Don’t look at the player’s belly to determine whether they are in condition. Look at the way they move at the end of their rounds. Do they still have a bounce in their step? Is the club getting heavy? I have watched Mickelson appear to have lots more energy than I had at the end of a round in the very hilly International at Castle Pines.
How did you determine that they are out-of-shape slobs?
yes… they can be.. i played a little professional baseball (over a decades worth) and my ideal playing weight was 192 pounds on a 6′3” frame.. my ACTUAL playing weight was 208 and i was running 5 miles a day and was in the best shape of my life.. nowadays (nearly 7 years after hanging up the spikes) i am at 228 and still can kick some arse with a bat or throwing.. also have the same club-head speed i had back in my lower weight days… what i am saying is that i am still in good shape and have added 20pounds.. i am in the vijay singh are of weight/look (maybe a tad more muscle) you don’t have to look like lou ferigno to be in shape.. some people carry a little ‘extra’ and are still super athletes.
no i am talking about the likes of beam, funk, mickelson and calcaecchia. none of whom i mention appear to be in any kind of phsycial condition.
Like your basic football and baseball players. Rob u – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – would think that golfers would take a page from players like duval and of course tiger woods and work on getting their bodies in better conditon. the same holds true for the women. there are not very many on the tour who would appear to be in any kind of good physical conditon now could someone tell me why a great many of these professional golfers appear to be very much out shape and in some cases just downright fat. isn’t conditioning an important factor in golf They’re using NFL and Major League Baseball players as role models for athleticism…so what would you expect? Rob — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
– Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
Why should they be in shape? It’s not like golf is a sport. Being a PGA golfer is about as athletically demanding as being an accountant. You get more exercise, mowing that weed field you call a lawn, than these nancy’s do on any given tourney weekend.
fIn rec.sport.golf Why should they be in shape? It’s not like golf is a sport. Being a PGA golfer is about as athletically demanding as being an accountant. You get more exercise, mowing that weed field you call a lawn, than these nancy’s do on any given tourney weekend.
While I wouldn’t compare the demands of tournament golf to those of a sport like soccer, football or basketball, it is still demanding. They are walking around 5 miles, 5-6X per week almost most every week of the year. There is a reason that pro golfers typically live into their 80s and beyond and it is the walking. To say it is comparable to mowing your lawn is ridiculous. Not only do you mow once per week, you don’t go the distance of one hole for a normal lawn. Bruce
Bruce…please don’t respond to this one Miss Anne Thorpe….big time troller. ___, o | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk
In rec.sport.golf Bruce…please don’t respond to this one Miss Anne Thorpe….big time troller.
This is the type of post where I just do a hit and run. I will not get into a debate, I’ll never reply to him again. I just toss the facts out and let them speak for themselves. Bruce
no i am talking about the likes of beam, funk, mickelson and calcaecchia. none of whom i mention appear to be in any kind of phsycial condition. u would think that golfers would take a page from players like duval and of course tiger woods and work on getting their bodies in better conditon. the same holds true for the women. there are not very many on the tour who would appear to be in any kind of good physical conditon
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – now could someone tell me why a great many of these professional golfers appear to be very much out shape and in some cases just downright fat. isn’t conditioning an important factor in golf They’re using NFL and Major League Baseball players as role models for athleticism…so what would you expect? Rob — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
no i am talking about the likes of beam, funk, mickelson and calcaecchia. none of whom i mention appear to be in any kind of phsycial condition. u would think that golfers would take a page from players like duval and of course tiger woods and work on getting their bodies in better conditon. the same holds true for the women. there are not very many on the tour who would appear to be in any kind of good physical conditon
Sorry. You’re about 7 days too late for this thread. Go look up in Google the words LPGA and Buffet. And, as far as the ladies are concerned,… where have you been keeping your head? According to the majority here, there are some aesthetically pleasing LPGA golfers…. Kelli Keune Paula Marti Cristie Kerr Annika Sorenstam -Diva T-
now could someone tell me why a great many of these professional golfers appear to be very much out shape and in some cases just downright fat. isn’t conditioning an important factor in golf
They’re using NFL and Major League Baseball players as role models for athleticism…so what would you expect? Rob — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
now could someone tell me why a great many of these professional golfers appear to be very much out shape and in some cases just downright fat. isn’t conditioning an important factor in golf
Well, let’s look at recent major winners. Tiger – in shape. Duval – in shape. Ernie – in shape. Vijay – in shape. On the women. Annika – tall and thin. I think anymore you can only get so far if you’re out of shape. I think it becomes a factor. now could someone tell me why a great many of these professional golfers appear to be very much out shape and in some cases just downright fat. isn’t conditioning an important factor in golf
I remember Dr. J… in his ABA days… he was the MJ of the ABA without doubt. There was some other impressive talent in the ABA as well. He didn’t do to bad in that other league either. Ah yes, the good old days of the ABA. Dr. J., Roger Brown, George McGinnis, Roger Brown, John Brisker, Darnell Hillman (aka Dr. Dunk), George Gervin (the IceMan), Dan Issel, Rick Barry, and the best of them all, Connie Hawkins.
Hey, how about Gerald "Go-Go" Govan?!!! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But people who don’t follow basketball remember Jordan, Wilt, Russell, and Dr. J. I’m sure you’re right. Or at least they’ve probably heard of them. But when it comes to name recognition, none of these is in the same league as Palmer or Clay/Ali. Back in the early 1980s I asked an elderly aunt of mine about popular sports figures. This aunt was essentially a sports illiterate. She recognized Palmer and Ali but not Nicklaus or Hogan. Babe Ruth but not Hank Aaron. I could not name a single basketball player that she’d ever heard of. She had heard of Bobby Jones. I think Woods will make it to the Aunts List. Not so sure about Jordan. Bottom line, I guess I agree with you that Woods will be remembered by more people longer than Jordan.
What was Jordan’s career… 18 or 20 years? What was Palmer’s and Nicklaus’… 40 years. If Tiger plays for nearly 4 decades wouldn’t you expect more people to remember him than someone that played rougly 1/2 that time? dsc
But people who don’t follow basketball remember Jordan, Wilt, Russell, and Dr. J.
I’m sure you’re right. Or at least they’ve probably heard of them. But when it comes to name recognition, none of these is in the same league as Palmer or Clay/Ali. Back in the early 1980s I asked an elderly aunt of mine about popular sports figures. This aunt was essentially a sports illiterate. She recognized Palmer and Ali but not Nicklaus or Hogan. Babe Ruth but not Hank Aaron. I could not name a single basketball player that she’d ever heard of. She had heard of Bobby Jones. I think Woods will make it to the Aunts List. Not so sure about Jordan. Bottom line, I guess I agree with you that Woods will be remembered by more people longer than Jordan. –Mat Twassel Mat’s Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
I remember Dr. J… in his ABA days… he was the MJ of the ABA without doubt. There was some other impressive talent in the ABA as well. He didn’t do to bad in that other league either.
Ah yes, the good old days of the ABA. Dr. J., Roger Brown, George McGinnis, Roger Brown, John Brisker, Darnell Hillman (aka Dr. Dunk), George Gervin (the IceMan), Dan Issel, Rick Barry, and the best of them all, Connie Hawkins. -Annika —– keepin the funk alive
But I was thinking – David Thompson had as much talent as Michael Jordan, but he’s largely forgotten now. I’m pretty sure I disagree with both parts of the above statement. David Thompson was a great leaper but so was MJ in his younger days. In what other respects was David Thompson as good or better? As an athlete, maybe.
Sure – "skywalker" had tremendous physical talent. As a basketball player, no way.
That’s because being the best basketball player requires more than talent. And David Thompson never had anything like the popularity of Jordan, and yet I remember him well. I suspect that anyone who followed basketball remembers him well.
But people who don’t follow basketball remember Jordan, Wilt, Russell, and Dr. J.
Golf is one of those sports where the "best" don’t need to suffer physically to stay on top. Compare against marathon runners, elite cyclists, or top triathletes who have to ignore pain to be the best for next to zero compensation compared to professional golfers. Perhaps this implies that golfers have superior intellect???
You don’t think 3-putting is suffering?
But I was thinking – David Thompson had as much talent as Michael Jordan, but he’s largely forgotten now. Who are golf’s David Thompson’s? DR. J could and did do most everything MJ did as well… and 20-30 years earlier. He was maybe one of the greatest athletes of his generation and beyond. Those two had great battles. People remember how good Dr. J was after the merger, but I’m told he was much better before it – but we didn’t know.
I remember Dr. J… in his ABA days… he was the MJ of the ABA without doubt. There was some other impressive talent in the ABA as well. He didn’t do to bad in that other league either. dsc
Golf is one of those sports where the "best" don’t need to suffer physically to stay on top. Compare against marathon runners, elite cyclists, or top triathletes who have to ignore pain to be the best for next to zero compensation compared to professional golfers. Perhaps this implies that golfers have superior intellect???
Before Tigher Woods came along how much do you think top golfers hoped to rake in each year? Did these golfers get an intellectual boost when Tiger came along? Heh. -McDaniel
Golf is one of those sports where the "best" don’t need to suffer physically to stay on top. Compare against marathon runners, elite cyclists, or top triathletes who have to ignore pain to be the best for next to zero compensation compared to professional golfers. Perhaps this implies that golfers have superior intellect???
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Howard Brazee writes: But I was thinking – David Thompson had as much talent as Michael Jordan, but he’s largely forgotten now. I’m pretty sure I disagree with both parts of the above statement. David Thompson was a great leaper but so was MJ in his younger days. In what other respects was David Thompson as good or better? As an athlete, maybe. As a basketball player, no way. And David Thompson never had anything like the popularity of Jordan, and yet I remember him well. I suspect that anyone who followed basketball remembers him well. Who are golf’s David Thompson’s? Well, based on a thread from a couple of days ago, I think Seve is a good candidate. –Mat Twassel Mat’s Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
But I was thinking – David Thompson had as much talent as Michael Jordan, but he’s largely forgotten now. Who are golf’s David Thompson’s? DR. J could and did do most everything MJ did as well… and 20-30 years earlier. He was maybe one of the greatest athletes of his generation and beyond.
Those two had great battles. People remember how good Dr. J was after the merger, but I’m told he was much better before it – but we didn’t know. I selected DT for this question because he is more forgotten than Dr. J.
But I was thinking – David Thompson had as much talent as Michael Jordan, but he’s largely forgotten now. Who are golf’s David Thompson’s?
Tom Weiskopf. OK, he’s pretty well known so how about George Knudson?
Howard Brazee writes: But I was thinking – David Thompson had as much talent as Michael Jordan, but he’s largely forgotten now.
I’m pretty sure I disagree with both parts of the above statement. David Thompson was a great leaper but so was MJ in his younger days. In what other respects was David Thompson as good or better? As an athlete, maybe. As a basketball player, no way. And David Thompson never had anything like the popularity of Jordan, and yet I remember him well. I suspect that anyone who followed basketball remembers him well. Who are golf’s David Thompson’s?
Well, based on a thread from a couple of days ago, I think Seve is a good candidate. –Mat Twassel Mat’s Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
I believe that Tiger Woods will be believed to be the best golfer longer than Michael Jordan will be believed to be the best basketball player. But I was thinking – David Thompson had as much talent as Michael Jordan, but he’s largely forgotten now. Who are golf’s David Thompson’s?
I believe that Tiger Woods will be believed to be the best golfer longer than Michael Jordan will be believed to be the best basketball player. But I was thinking – David Thompson had as much talent as Michael Jordan, but he’s largely forgotten now. Who are golf’s David Thompson’s?
DR. J could and did do most everything MJ did as well… and 20-30 years earlier. He was maybe one of the greatest athletes of his generation and beyond. dsc
My guess is that the TGC broadcast works the same way that Formula 1 races are broadcast in the US. TGC picks up the video feed from whoever produces the Euro tour coverage and hires their own announcers (Laidlaw, Humphries, etc.) to do the audio. That is purely a guess…
I think you’ve got it! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Is it just me, or do others like to watch the Euro tour coverage on TGC to hear Renton Laidlaw’s commentary? He’s got a terrific announcer’s voice, a wickedly funny sense of humor (dry to the bone), and doesn’t seem to be particularly concerned about being politically correct. Sometimes he’ll make a comment which you would probably never hear on a US network covering the PGA tour. He’s great! TGC was dumb enough to get rid of Peter Kessler, let’s see if they’re smart enough to keep Renton Laidlaw under contract for a long time.
Renton is the best, but I can’t see him working out on US TV, which is far to teeny bopper pop culturish in their approach to golf. Rob — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
Make that "yards and feet" instead of "feet and inches." Only Tiger thinks in terms of inches when hitting from the fairway… Neal
Isn’t it funny/sad how RSG message threads always get off topic and end up sniping at one another… …back on topic. I think Renton Laidlaw and Warren Humphries are really refreshing to listen to in comparison to most US commentators. In my time zone, I get the TGC European tour broadcast live at 6 or 7 a.m. on Saturday and Sunday morning. I look forward, most weekends, to having breakfast and listening to their commentary. I particularly get a kick listening to Renton’s rolling tongue voice when he says, "Looks like <insert European Tour player here is going to finish birdie, birdie". :-) Rand — So you think you’ve got it tough? Where I live, twilight rates start at 5 pm and frost delays last 6 months.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did say "and other select tournaments." Masters, Open and Women’s British Open are irrelevant, as we already have coverage of those tournaments here. That leaves the following that we see on TGC: Seve Trophy Benson and Hedges Volvo PGA Scottish Open World Matchplay Walker Cup Looks like Volvo PGA and other select tournaments to me. And it also looks like most of the tournaments come from Sky Sports. They do but your comment suggested that the BBC golf coverage was virtually non-existence, which it isn’t.
I did say "and other select tournaments." Masters, Open and Women’s British Open are irrelevant, as we already have coverage of those tournaments here. That leaves the following that we see on TGC: Seve Trophy Benson and Hedges Volvo PGA Scottish Open World Matchplay Walker Cup Looks like Volvo PGA and other select tournaments to me. And it also looks like most of the tournaments come from Sky Sports.
They do but your comment suggested that the BBC golf coverage was virtually non-existence, which it isn’t.
Well, in any event, I would think Mr. Laidlaw is under contract to some other broadcasting entity — perhaps he’s there to do an "international feed," similar to the one done by the PGA TOUR, but in this case, the one done by the European Tour, produced to feed to the other countries that don’t/can’t supply their own team of announcers. I’m pretty sure The Golf Channel isn’t paying for production of the entire European Tour schedule of events.
I don’t know what the broadcasting arrangement is between TGC and the Euro tour, but the commentary by Laidlaw & Co. is certainly aimed at the US. They give all the distances in feet and inches rather than meters and centimeters. Also, during the final round of the Deutsche Bank Open, Renton kept encouraging people to go to the Golf Channel website and submit questions for he and Warren to answer during the broadcast. The best question came from someone in South Carolina who wanted to know what they usually eat during a broadcast. Renton’s answer was chocolate biscuits and ice cream. My guess is that the TGC broadcast works the same way that Formula 1 races are broadcast in the US. TGC picks up the video feed from whoever produces the Euro tour coverage and hires their own announcers (Laidlaw, Humphries, etc.) to do the audio. That is purely a guess… Neal
Bit unfair on the BBC Waybe They cover: US Masters Seve Trophy Benson & Hedges Volvo PGA Scottish Open The Open World Matchplay Women’s British Open plus highlights of Ryder Cup, Walker Cup, The Amateur
I did say "and other select tournaments." Masters, Open and Women’s British Open are irrelevant, as we already have coverage of those tournaments here. That leaves the following that we see on TGC: Seve Trophy Benson and Hedges Volvo PGA Scottish Open World Matchplay Walker Cup Looks like Volvo PGA and other select tournaments to me. And it also looks like most of the tournaments come from Sky Sports. Wayne — Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=huffordw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SLAM_SPAM_THANK_YA_MA’AM says… I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong. I’m pretty sure he is under contract to the Golf Channel. I mean, if you ever see him during the telecast (which is rare), there’s a big golf channel logo right on the desk. And most of the broadcasts from over there are coming from Sky Sports, not the BBC. The BBC only really does the Volvo PGA and other select tournaments. Wayne — Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=huffordw
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong. I believe that Renton Laidlaw works for Sky who own the rights to the European Tour telecasts, with the exception of a number of tournaments played in the UK – B&H Masters, Volvo PGA, The Open and the Cisco World Matchplay -which are owned by the BBC. Crispin Roche
He doesn’t work for Sky He works for The Golf Channel via The European Tour I guess sometimes there’s no point posting things as people just ignore it…..
Bit unfair on the BBC Waybe They cover: US Masters Seve Trophy Benson & Hedges Volvo PGA Scottish Open The Open World Matchplay Women’s British Open plus highlights of Ryder Cup, Walker Cup, The Amateur
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SLAM_SPAM_THANK_YA_MA’AM says… I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong. I’m pretty sure he is under contract to the Golf Channel. I mean, if you ever see him during the telecast (which is rare), there’s a big golf channel logo right on the desk. And most of the broadcasts from over there are coming from Sky Sports, not the BBC. The BBC only really does the Volvo PGA and other select tournaments. Wayne — Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=huffordw
Well, I have heard Renton mention TGC several times during the broadcasts, and never BBC or any other network. FWIW. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, in any event, I would think Mr. Laidlaw is under contract to some other broadcasting entity — perhaps he’s there to do an "international feed," similar to the one done by the PGA TOUR, but in this case, the one done by the European Tour, produced to feed to the other countries that don’t/can’t supply their own team of announcers. I’m pretty sure The Golf Channel isn’t paying for production of the entire European Tour schedule of events. — Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong. — Randy Randy, I’ve never heard of Renton Laidlaw, the BBC use Steve Rider as presenter, Peter Alliss, Ken Brown and Alex Hay as commentators. cheers
<SLAM_SPAM_THANK_YA_MA’AM says… I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong.
I’m pretty sure he is under contract to the Golf Channel. I mean, if you ever see him during the telecast (which is rare), there’s a big golf channel logo right on the desk. And most of the broadcasts from over there are coming from Sky Sports, not the BBC. The BBC only really does the Volvo PGA and other select tournaments. Wayne — Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=huffordw
I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong.
I believe that Renton Laidlaw works for Sky who own the rights to the European Tour telecasts, with the exception of a number of tournaments played in the UK – B&H Masters, Volvo PGA, The Open and the Cisco World Matchplay -which are owned by the BBC. Crispin Roche
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, in any event, I would think Mr. Laidlaw is under contract to some other broadcasting entity — perhaps he’s there to do an "international feed," similar to the one done by the PGA TOUR, but in this case, the one done by the European Tour, produced to feed to the other countries that don’t/can’t supply their own team of announcers. I’m pretty sure The Golf Channel isn’t paying for production of the entire European Tour schedule of events. — Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong. — Randy Randy, I’ve never heard of Renton Laidlaw, the BBC use Steve Rider as presenter, Peter Alliss, Ken Brown and Alex Hay as commentators. cheers
Renton is listed on The Golf Channel’s website as one of their on-air talent personalities. I love the euro coverage. They don’t analyze the putts to death for one thing. tim
On another "is it just me" question, does it seem like they show the leaderboard every 15 minutes during Buy.com events, and they spend 5 minutes doing so, and it’s so incredibly boring with the music they play in the background. Or perhaps it’s changed in the few months since I’ve watched TGC. Maybe my wife will let us bring back digital cable as a Fathers Day present. Sucks being on a budget. cheers, Mike
Budgets do sucK… and No "it’s NOT just you" AND hasn’t changed. I too, get tired of watching the leader board on the Buy.com tour and my wife has to hear about it…course she doesn’t listen ..LOL G
I don’t get TGC any more (cancelled digital cable). But I thought Laidlaw and the Euro tour coverage overall was great. Interesting. Insightful. Everything the Buy.com coverage was not (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz). On another "is it just me" question, does it seem like they show the leaderboard every 15 minutes during Buy.com events, and they spend 5 minutes doing so, and it’s so incredibly boring with the music they play in the background. Or perhaps it’s changed in the few months since I’ve watched TGC. Maybe my wife will let us bring back digital cable as a Fathers Day present. Sucks being on a budget. cheers, Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it just me, or do others like to watch the Euro tour coverage on TGC to hear Renton Laidlaw’s commentary? He’s got a terrific announcer’s voice, a wickedly funny sense of humor (dry to the bone), and doesn’t seem to be particularly concerned about being politically correct. Sometimes he’ll make a comment which you would probably never hear on a US network covering the PGA tour. He’s great! TGC was dumb enough to get rid of Peter Kessler, let’s see if they’re smart enough to keep Renton Laidlaw under contract for a long time.
Well, in any event, I would think Mr. Laidlaw is under contract to some other broadcasting entity — perhaps he’s there to do an "international feed," similar to the one done by the PGA TOUR, but in this case, the one done by the European Tour, produced to feed to the other countries that don’t/can’t supply their own team of announcers. I’m pretty sure The Golf Channel isn’t paying for production of the entire European Tour schedule of events. — Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong. — Randy Randy, I’ve never heard of Renton Laidlaw, the BBC use Steve Rider as presenter, Peter Alliss, Ken Brown and Alex Hay as commentators. cheers
I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong. — Randy
Randy, I’ve never heard of Renton Laidlaw, the BBC use Steve Rider as presenter, Peter Alliss, Ken Brown and Alex Hay as commentators. cheers
Randy Renton Laidlaw does not work for the BBC and never has as far as I know. He used to commentate on the 1 hour highlights packages that the European Tour used to send out to commercial channels in the 80s/early 90s but since then I believe he either works directly for the Golf Channel or via the European Tour itself in it’s own productions sold outside the UK. The BBC is as it always has been, the main team being: Steve Rider – Anchor Peter Alliss Alex Hay Ken Brown plus a variety of on course commentaters, presently Julian Tutt, Mark James. Not a patch on the Sky Sports team which is the best presentation of golf I’ve ever seen including all the US ones.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong. — Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com Is it just me, or do others like to watch the Euro tour coverage on TGC to hear Renton Laidlaw’s commentary? He’s got a terrific announcer’s voice, a wickedly funny sense of humor (dry to the bone), and doesn’t seem to be particularly concerned about being politically correct. Sometimes he’ll make a comment which you would probably never hear on a US network covering the PGA tour. He’s great! TGC was dumb enough to get rid of Peter Kessler, let’s see if they’re smart enough to keep Renton Laidlaw under contract for a long time.
I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong.
I don’t know his contractual arrangements in Europe, but he has been coming out to Australia in our summer for quite a few years now, under contract to Channel 7 for their major tournament coverage i.e. the Australian Open and the Australian Masters. There are also three other events here (Johnnie Walker, Heineken Classic and ANZ Championship) that are European Tour co-sanctioned, so he does them too. All up, that would mean an Australian commitment for him from late November until mid-February. He probably loves getting two summers every year as part of the job! Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong. I don’t know his contractual arrangements in Europe, but he has been coming out to Australia in our summer for quite a few years now, under contract to Channel 7 for their major tournament coverage i.e. the Australian Open and the Australian Masters. There are also three other events here (Johnnie Walker, Heineken Classic and ANZ Championship) that are European Tour co-sanctioned, so he does them too. All up, that would mean an Australian commitment for him from late November until mid-February. He probably loves getting two summers every year as part of the job! Cheers Colin Wilson
At least by going to Oz he is guaranteed a summer !!!! — David RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=sneddond email: dsneddon AT attcanada DOT ca
At least by going to Oz he is guaranteed a summer !!!!
The last one was rather cool. Probably warmer than a British one though. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
| Is it just me, or do others like to watch the Euro tour coverage | on TGC to hear Renton Laidlaw’s commentary? He’s got a terrific | announcer’s voice, a wickedly funny sense of humor (dry to the bone), | and doesn’t seem to be particularly concerned about being politically | correct. Sometimes he’ll make a comment which you would probably | never hear on a US network covering the PGA tour. He’s great! | | TGC was dumb enough to get rid of Peter Kessler, let’s see if they’re | smart enough to keep Renton Laidlaw under contract for a long time. | I agree, I sure enjoy his and Warren’s dry humor. I even think that the way that they start the show is great, to bad that other than Mc Cord there is not more individuality in US golf TV tournaments. — Enrique http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=borregoenrique _ -(")- `%%% // \
I don’t believe Renton Laidlaw is under contract to The Golf Channel. I believe he does the European Tour telecasts for the BBC, which are also fed to the American audience and rebroadcast in the US on The Golf Channel. Anyone in the UK care to confirm that Renton is also the announcer on the telecasts you see over there? If that’s the case, I believe the only way Renton would be removed from the telecasts is if the BBC were to remove him. TGC wouldn’t have much say in the matter. I could be wrong. — Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it just me, or do others like to watch the Euro tour coverage on TGC to hear Renton Laidlaw’s commentary? He’s got a terrific announcer’s voice, a wickedly funny sense of humor (dry to the bone), and doesn’t seem to be particularly concerned about being politically correct. Sometimes he’ll make a comment which you would probably never hear on a US network covering the PGA tour. He’s great! TGC was dumb enough to get rid of Peter Kessler, let’s see if they’re smart enough to keep Renton Laidlaw under contract for a long time.
Is it just me, or do others like to watch the Euro tour coverage on TGC to hear Renton Laidlaw’s commentary? He’s got a terrific announcer’s voice, a wickedly funny sense of humor (dry to the bone), and doesn’t seem to be particularly concerned about being politically correct. Sometimes he’ll make a comment which you would probably never hear on a US network covering the PGA tour. He’s great! TGC was dumb enough to get rid of Peter Kessler, let’s see if they’re smart enough to keep Renton Laidlaw under contract for a long time.
Is it just me, or do others like to watch the Euro tour coverage on TGC to hear Renton Laidlaw’s commentary? He’s got a terrific announcer’s voice, a wickedly funny sense of humor (dry to the bone), and doesn’t seem to be particularly concerned about being politically correct. Sometimes he’ll make a comment which you would probably never hear on a US network covering the PGA tour. He’s great!
I find the Euro commentators "refreshing." They don’t seem to worship professional golfers. Renton is commical and enjoyable to listen to, and the others there are good, too.
love it when customers use their service in violation of the TOS. Eliyahu
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Old BS. Don’t take the bait from this troller. ___, o | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk
hey try to not to get to many blisters or to many muscles lifting that heavy club or chasing that poor little ball
baseball not a sport? what a doof…
prime is 25 not thirty plus and tiger and a few choice ball players doesnt make it a sport
So once again: how come the list is dominated by golfers over 30? If prime is 25 and all those guys are over the hill, how come the 25 year old golfers aren’t doing better. You do know they exist, right? — Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you’ll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
prime is 25 not thirty plus and tiger and a few choice ball players doesnt make it a sport
what speak english dummy
still not a sport and boxing is tough no matter what age you are dodging fist is alot more dangerous than white little balls, ok pussy
speak english want to see my nuts, dweeb
need a tissue whimp
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i managed to eek out a 10 year career playing professional baseball.. arm injuries ended it… but not from a lack of hard work and stupidity (not taking the trainers prognosis on when i SHOULD quit) i played golf quite a bit during that time.. and i had the opp to meet many professional golfers over the years i played.. to get to my point.. Golf is a sport.. it is competition, it is concentration, it is preparation, it is practice. It requires guts AND smarts… and nerves of steel… The best player in the AFL (Australian Football League), James Hird, had a sickening collision with a team mate’s knee in a pack last weekend. He is now recovering in hospital with five titanium plates and anchoring screws holding his left eye socket and cheek together after facial reconstruction surgery. The injury equates that of a road accident victim. So if being tough and playing in a "real sport" means subjecting yourself to what James Hird has, then I admit it … I’m a wimp! Golf is for wimps! But I don’t care what label you want to put on it, give me golf any day. I’m also glad my son never plays "real sport" like football. And I bet you’d never see the original poster of this thread game to play it either.
I dunno, Colin. From reading his trolls here, I think he may have played one too many games of NFL-style football without his helmet. Eliyahu
Nah, real sports are where the losing team is executed. Now that’s real sport.
To combine this idea of mortally dangerous golf with the extreme golf threads, howabout if penalties were played as penalty shots? The opponent of the penalized one gets a free shot/mulligan to use any time he wants. The penalized one may stand in the way of his opponent’s free shot to try to block it. — Digital forums are a gift to the slow witted
still not a sport either is basball
Like the guy who drives by a golf course, sticks his head out the window and yells, "FORE!," you apparently have never had an original thought in your life. Try the Google archives and read any one of the ten-thousand posts we’ve had on this subject in the last eight years. Then, crawl back under your rock. Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thats right any thing an old man can do at 90 and still play like golf well is not a sport, tiger woods is young the rest are old thats why he wins, hes no great one just playing with people way past their prime. real sports boxing basketball hockey men in their prime are real thing, baseball another pussy sport old men past their prime not a sport get the picture
Please don’t feed the trolls.
Troll Troll Troll ALERT PLEASE IGNORE this line of Harassment — For further information you can e-mail me. Mark G. Mark G. Not4wood If not for wood, where would I be now!! RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/gottesmanm.htm Yahoo Golf http://dir.yahoo.com/Recreation/Sports/Golf/ Golf Digest http://www.golfdigest.com/ Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wait, you forgot YOUR favorite sport — smoking crack! After all, I don’t know anyone past their prime lasting very long in that sport, either. What’s your ranking? Here are a few more sports (by your definition) you skipped that I am sure you are quite adept at: cartoon watching junk food eating drunk driving masterbation (I hear you have been working extra hard at that one, since you are a rank amateur…) Take another hit and grow up, will you? 2157.public.lawson.webtv.net: thats right any thing an old man can do at 90 and still play like golf well is not a sport, tiger woods is young the rest are old thats why he wins, hes no great one just playing with people way past their prime. real sports boxing basketball hockey men in their prime are real thing, baseball another pussy sport old men past their prime not a sport get the picture
Old BS. Don’t take the bait from this troller. ___, o | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk
Wait, you forgot YOUR favorite sport — smoking crack! After all, I don’t know anyone past their prime lasting very long in that sport, either. What’s your ranking? Here are a few more sports (by your definition) you skipped that I am sure you are quite adept at: cartoon watching junk food eating drunk driving masterbation (I hear you have been working extra hard at that one, since you are a rank amateur…) Take another hit and grow up, will you? 2157.public.lawson.webtv.net: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thats right any thing an old man can do at 90 and still play like golf well is not a sport, tiger woods is young the rest are old thats why he wins, hes no great one just playing with people way past their prime. real sports boxing basketball hockey men in their prime are real thing, baseball another pussy sport old men past their prime not a sport get the picture
i managed to eek out a 10 year career playing professional baseball.. arm injuries ended it… but not from a lack of hard work and stupidity (not taking the trainers prognosis on when i SHOULD quit) i played golf quite a bit during that time.. and i had the opp to meet many professional golfers over the years i played.. to get to my point.. Golf is a sport.. it is competition, it is concentration, it is preparation, it is practice. It requires guts AND smarts… and nerves of steel…
The best player in the AFL (Australian Football League), James Hird, had a sickening collision with a team mate’s knee in a pack last weekend. He is now recovering in hospital with five titanium plates and anchoring screws holding his left eye socket and cheek together after facial reconstruction surgery. The injury equates that of a road accident victim. So if being tough and playing in a "real sport" means subjecting yourself to what James Hird has, then I admit it … I’m a wimp! Golf is for wimps! But I don’t care what label you want to put on it, give me golf any day. I’m also glad my son never plays "real sport" like football. And I bet you’d never see the original poster of this thread game to play it either. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
thats right any thing an old man can do at 90 and still play like golf well is not a sport, tiger woods is young the rest are old thats why he wins, hes no great one just playing with people way past their prime. real sports boxing basketball hockey men in their prime are real thing, baseball another pussy sport old men past their prime not a sport get the picture
Nah, real sports are where the losing team is executed. Now that’s real sport. Who cares if golf is a sport or just a game? I don’t expect anyone to think I’m a good athlete because I’m a good golfer. Nor do I believe that because someone is a good athlete they will be a good golfer. If your point is that golf is easy, try out for the tour. Top prize money is quite good. As to your point about age, how old was George Foreman for his last fight? Larry Holmes? And basketball, how about Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Robert Parrish? And hockey, how about Gordie Howe? Bobby Hull? They played professionally with their kids. I will continue to enjoy golf no matter what you think. And by the way, webtv is not a real computer. It is for computer illiterate pussies.
thats right any thing an old man can do at 90 and still play like golf well is not a sport, tiger woods is young the rest are old thats why he wins, hes no great one just playing with people way past their prime.
Riiiiiight. That Sergio Garcia is way past his prime. At age 22. 2 Phil Mickelson USA 31 3 Ernie Els 32 4 Retief Goosen 33 5 Sergio Garcia 22 6 David Duval USA 30 7 Vijay Singh Fij 29 8 David Toms USA 35 9 Chris DiMarco USA 33 10 Padraig Harrington ?? 11 Davis Love III USA 38 12 Rocco Mediate USA 39 13 Mike Weir Can 31 14 Darren Clarke NIr ?? 15 Jose Maria Olazabal Spn 36 So you’re saying that a median age of 32.5 is "way past their prime"? If that’s the case, where are all the other 26 year old golfers (Tiger’s age) who — according to you — should be dominating all these old fogeys? <snip — Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you’ll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
get the picture
Yea, I get the picture. You’re incapable of forming a coherent sentence, and you’re furthering the impression that WebTV users are the bane of Usenet. My apologies for feeding the troll. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Every week Sports Illustrated does a Sport? Not a Sport? article where they ask various people if something is a sport. This week it is bullfighting. John Mobley, Bronco linebacker voted for SPORT. "Have you seen the size of those bulls’ nuts. You go up against anyone with nuts that big, it’s a serious sport."
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thats right any thing an old man can do at 90 and still play like golf well is not a sport, tiger woods is young the rest are old thats why he wins, hes no great one just playing with people way past their prime. real sports boxing basketball hockey men in their prime are real thing, baseball another pussy sport old men past their prime not a sport get the picture
: thats right any thing an old man can do at 90 and still play like golf well is not a sport, tiger woods is young the rest are old thats why he wins, hes no great one just playing with people way past their prime. real sports boxing basketball hockey men in their prime are real thing, baseball another pussy sport old men past their prime not a sport get the picture
People that post such drible statements, are trolls that are arm chair athletics with want-ta-bee dreams dispite their lives are filled with fears of being hurt…. G
thats right any thing an old man can do at 90 and still play like golf well is not a sport, tiger woods is young the rest are old thats why he wins, hes no great one just playing with people way past their prime. real sports boxing basketball hockey men in their prime are real thing, baseball another pussy sport old men past their prime not a sport get the picture
you must have always been the last one chosen for dodge ball during your youth… i will say this.. i managed to eek out a 10 year career playing professional baseball.. arm injuries ended it… but not from a lack of hard work and stupidity (not taking the trainers prognosis on when i SHOULD quit) i played golf quite a bit during that time.. and i had the opp to meet many professional golfers over the years i played.. to get to my point.. Golf is a sport.. it is competition, it is concentration, it is preparation, it is practice. It requires guts AND smarts… and nerves of steel… the fact there are no screaming fans likens it to Tennis in my opinion. and those guys are some of the most well trained athletes around… Some golfers are not in shape.. (ala Daly) and some are (ala Tiger) just as some baseball players are not in shape (David Wells) and ARE in shape (Jeff Bagwell, or Barry Bonds)
Thomson is a good one with 5 Opens and probably could have done a lot more if hed followed the line
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can we fill in the timeline starting now and going backwards in time It has to be players who were dominant for lets say at least 3 years, if not 5, ie we can ignore single hot seasons like O’meara in 98, Couples in 92 etc Im thinking Woods Faldo Norman Ballesteros (Langer?) Watson Nicklaus Palmer Hogan Snead Nelson Sarazen Jones Im a bit fuzzy about the stuff between the Tom Morris-es and Jones although I know Vardon, Braid and Taylor are in there also Im more interested in the more modern era though, since the "proper" ball etc Well the proper ball would be the Haskill and onwards which is effectively 1900+. The great triumvarate, JH Taylor, James Braid and Harry Vardon, ruled from 1900 until the WWI after which the golfing balance of power shifted to the USA. Walter Hagen, Bobby Jones and Gene Sarazen were the preeminent players of the 20 and early 30s. The late 30s and early WW2 were a little bit bare for stars although Snead, Nelson and Hogan were beginning to make an impression. During the same period there were a number of top golfers who I guess would be the Singh’s, Olazabal’s and Mickelsons of the day, i.e. win a lot of tournaments including a couple of big ones but never become members of the elite. In Europe, i,e, largely UK, there was Ted Ray, Henry Cotton, George Duncan and Sandy Herd. And in the USA John Farrell, McDonald Smith, Willie Anderson, Densmore Shute, Paul Runyan, Harry Cooper, Horton Smith and Henry Picard. I think everybody could recite the post WW2 greats (Nelson, Snead, Hogan, Palmer, Player, Nicklaus, Trevino, Watson, Ballesteros, Faldo and Woods) but some of the other players who rarely get mentioned in the same breath but were very dominant players as well include, from outside the US: Bobby Locke, Peter Thompson, Christy O’Connor, Neil Coles, Peter Oosterhuis, Dai Rees, Sandy Lyle and Bernhard Langer. And from the US Jimmy Demaret, Lloyd Mangrum, Cary Middlecoff, Billy Casper, Doug Sanders and Tony Lema. Crispin Roche
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can we fill in the timeline starting now and going backwards in time It has to be players who were dominant for lets say at least 3 years, if not 5, ie we can ignore single hot seasons like O’meara in 98, Couples in 92 etc Im thinking Woods Faldo Norman Ballesteros (Langer?) Watson Nicklaus Palmer Hogan Snead Nelson Sarazen Jones Im a bit fuzzy about the stuff between the Tom Morris-es and Jones although I know Vardon, Braid and Taylor are in there also Im more interested in the more modern era though, since the "proper" ball etc
Well the proper ball would be the Haskill and onwards which is effectively 1900+. The great triumvarate, JH Taylor, James Braid and Harry Vardon, ruled from 1900 until the WWI after which the golfing balance of power shifted to the USA. Walter Hagen, Bobby Jones and Gene Sarazen were the preeminent players of the 20 and early 30s. The late 30s and early WW2 were a little bit bare for stars although Snead, Nelson and Hogan were beginning to make an impression. During the same period there were a number of top golfers who I guess would be the Singh’s, Olazabal’s and Mickelsons of the day, i.e. win a lot of tournaments including a couple of big ones but never become members of the elite. In Europe, i,e, largely UK, there was Ted Ray, Henry Cotton, George Duncan and Sandy Herd. And in the USA John Farrell, McDonald Smith, Willie Anderson, Densmore Shute, Paul Runyan, Harry Cooper, Horton Smith and Henry Picard. I think everybody could recite the post WW2 greats (Nelson, Snead, Hogan, Palmer, Player, Nicklaus, Trevino, Watson, Ballesteros, Faldo and Woods) but some of the other players who rarely get mentioned in the same breath but were very dominant players as well include, from outside the US: Bobby Locke, Peter Thompson, Christy O’Connor, Neil Coles, Peter Oosterhuis, Dai Rees, Sandy Lyle and Bernhard Langer. And from the US Jimmy Demaret, Lloyd Mangrum, Cary Middlecoff, Billy Casper, Doug Sanders and Tony Lema. Crispin Roche
just to clarify my original intention its not to list all time greats that would be easy by looking at wins etc lets break things up into 5 yr slots and you have to name THE MAN in that period you can have 2 and no more than 3 if absolutely merited 2000-2005 Tiger (projected) 1995-2000 Tiger (despite missing some of the period!) 1990-1995 Faldo – Price 1985-1990 Norman – Faldo 1980-1985 Seve – Norman? 1975-1980 Watson 1970-1975 Miller 1965-1970 Nicklaus 1960-1965 Palmer 1955-1960 Palmer? 1950-1955 Hogan 1945-1950 Hogan ? 1940-1945 WAR 1935-1940 Nelson 1930-1935 Nelson? 1925-1930 Jones 1920-1925 Hagen ? switching to 10 yr gaps 1910-1920 1900-1910 1890-1900 1880-1890 1870-1880 etc, OK I need to fit in Player and Trevino I think and then the pre Jones guys and then if 2nd and 3rd players need adding to the eras. this is all about players who were clearly dominant over a period of a few years please add your knowledge to the foot of the table or add them in if you are really clued up and are sure
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two names that jump out at me as being conspicuously missing from your list are: Johnny Miller, who dominated (although for only a few years) in the early and mid 70s. Though his star burned out rather quickly, it burned very brightly. His 63 in the final round of the ‘73 US Open at Oakmont, remains to this day the lowest final round score in any major championship. He dominated for a few years in a way very similar to how Tiger dominated in ‘99-’00. His 8-win season in ‘74 was the most in a single season until Tiger Woods equaled the number in ‘99 and then won 9 in ‘00. and Nick Price, who dominated (although for only a few years) in the early 90s. Price had the most wins in the 1990s, including three majors. Price won 9 tournaments in ‘93 and ‘94 at a time when few were winning more than one per year. Here’s another name that is deserving to be on anyone’s "all time greats" list: Billy Casper. He ranks 6th on the all-time victories list, and if it weren’t for Nicklaus, Palmer and Player getting all the attention, Casper would have been thought of as one of the "big three." Oh yeah, one other name you left off the list: Walter Hagen, who, along with Jones and Sarazen, was dominant in that same era. Hagen is also noteworthy because he, as much as anyone, is credited with elevating the status of professional golfers. Before Hagen came along, pro golfers were thought of as little more than hustlers — not commonly even allowed to mingle with club members. But Hagen, with his flamboyant style, flashy clothes, fancy cars and hot women, attracted so much attention, he became something of a celebrity even off the course, something that was new to professional golf at that time. Another name I think deserves mention is Greg Norman. Although he’s best known for what he didn’t win, he did rack up an impressive number of worldwide victories, including two British Opens during an era when no one golfers was particularly dominant. He was ranked #1 on the World Rankings seemingly forever until some guy named Woods finally knocked him off his perch. There are many, many others worthy of mention. You can start with the names that appear on the all-time victories list, which you can see at http://www.yougogolf.com/tiger_stripes.htm (you’ll have to scroll down past what is a very old article to see the lists). Names like Middlecoff, Mangrum, Smith, Cooper and Demaret all rank above Tiger Woods with more than 30 career victories. Then let’s not forget international players like Peter Thomson, who won five British Opens, and Harry Vardon, who holds the record with six (and invented the golf grip most commonly used — "the Vardon grip"). Plus, I’m sure there are others from across the pond whose names I’m forgetting, though none more deserving than these two. Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com Can we fill in the timeline starting now and going backwards in time It has to be players who were dominant for lets say at least 3 years, if not 5, ie we can ignore single hot seasons like O’meara in 98, Couples in 92 etc Im thinking Woods Faldo Norman Ballesteros (Langer?) Watson Nicklaus Palmer Hogan Snead Nelson Sarazen Jones Im a bit fuzzy about the stuff between the Tom Morris-es and Jones although I know Vardon, Braid and Taylor are in there also Im more interested in the more modern era though, since the "proper" ball etc Have i skipped anyone – please elaborate with information as to their dominating periods. Sure I could look this up, but its fun listening to guys who actually sat through these periods. I wasnt totally into golf in the 80s (to my eternal sorrow) so missed Seve and Greg, sort of caught the Faldo era, and then Woods of course. Im also talking about guys who were the "dogs bollocks", not just guys who were very good or won a lot, but the real hall of famers who had no equal over a period of time. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Two names that jump out at me as being conspicuously missing from your list are: Johnny Miller, who dominated (although for only a few years) in the early and mid 70s. Though his star burned out rather quickly, it burned very brightly. His 63 in the final round of the ‘73 US Open at Oakmont, remains to this day the lowest final round score in any major championship. He dominated for a few years in a way very similar to how Tiger dominated in ‘99-’00. His 8-win season in ‘74 was the most in a single season until Tiger Woods equaled the number in ‘99 and then won 9 in ‘00. and Nick Price, who dominated (although for only a few years) in the early 90s. Price had the most wins in the 1990s, including three majors. Price won 9 tournaments in ‘93 and ‘94 at a time when few were winning more than one per year. Here’s another name that is deserving to be on anyone’s "all time greats" list: Billy Casper. He ranks 6th on the all-time victories list, and if it weren’t for Nicklaus, Palmer and Player getting all the attention, Casper would have been thought of as one of the "big three." Oh yeah, one other name you left off the list: Walter Hagen, who, along with Jones and Sarazen, was dominant in that same era. Hagen is also noteworthy because he, as much as anyone, is credited with elevating the status of professional golfers. Before Hagen came along, pro golfers were thought of as little more than hustlers — not commonly even allowed to mingle with club members. But Hagen, with his flamboyant style, flashy clothes, fancy cars and hot women, attracted so much attention, he became something of a celebrity even off the course, something that was new to professional golf at that time. Another name I think deserves mention is Greg Norman. Although he’s best known for what he didn’t win, he did rack up an impressive number of worldwide victories, including two British Opens during an era when no one golfers was particularly dominant. He was ranked #1 on the World Rankings seemingly forever until some guy named Woods finally knocked him off his perch. There are many, many others worthy of mention. You can start with the names that appear on the all-time victories list, which you can see at http://www.yougogolf.com/tiger_stripes.htm (you’ll have to scroll down past what is a very old article to see the lists). Names like Middlecoff, Mangrum, Smith, Cooper and Demaret all rank above Tiger Woods with more than 30 career victories. Then let’s not forget international players like Peter Thomson, who won five British Opens, and Harry Vardon, who holds the record with six (and invented the golf grip most commonly used — "the Vardon grip"). Plus, I’m sure there are others from across the pond whose names I’m forgetting, though none more deserving than these two. Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can we fill in the timeline starting now and going backwards in time It has to be players who were dominant for lets say at least 3 years, if not 5, ie we can ignore single hot seasons like O’meara in 98, Couples in 92 etc Im thinking Woods Faldo Norman Ballesteros (Langer?) Watson Nicklaus Palmer Hogan Snead Nelson Sarazen Jones Im a bit fuzzy about the stuff between the Tom Morris-es and Jones although I know Vardon, Braid and Taylor are in there also Im more interested in the more modern era though, since the "proper" ball etc Have i skipped anyone – please elaborate with information as to their dominating periods. Sure I could look this up, but its fun listening to guys who actually sat through these periods. I wasnt totally into golf in the 80s (to my eternal sorrow) so missed Seve and Greg, sort of caught the Faldo era, and then Woods of course. Im also talking about guys who were the "dogs bollocks", not just guys who were very good or won a lot, but the real hall of famers who had no equal over a period of time. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Oh, cripes… I didn’t even notice Player’s name missing. He definitely deserves to be there. Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can we fill in the timeline starting now and going backwards in time It has to be players who were dominant for lets say at least 3 years, if not 5, ie we can ignore single hot seasons like O’meara in 98, Couples in 92 etc Im thinking Woods Faldo Norman Ballesteros (Langer?) Watson Nicklaus Palmer Hogan Snead Nelson Sarazen Jones Im a bit fuzzy about the stuff between the Tom Morris-es and Jones although I know Vardon, Braid and Taylor are in there also Im more interested in the more modern era though, since the "proper" ball etc Have i skipped anyone – please elaborate with information as to their dominating periods. Sure I could look this up, but its fun listening to guys who actually sat through these periods. I wasnt totally into golf in the 80s (to my eternal sorrow) so missed Seve and Greg, sort of caught the Faldo era, and then Woods of course. Im also talking about guys who were the "dogs bollocks", not just guys who were very good or won a lot, but the real hall of famers who had no equal over a period of time. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Player? — Alan Campbell
Although I intensly dislike Johnny Miller in the broadcast booth, he should go on that list ,as should Trevino.
Trevino yes Miller ? hmmm, wasnt he only hot for about a couple of years? I know he had one year where it is reckoned he hit the ball as close to pins as anyone ever did.
Although I intensly dislike Johnny Miller in the broadcast booth, he should go on that list ,as should Trevino.
— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
bloody hell Gary Player of course – perhaps the most impressive record in golf considering world wide impact and travelling and longevity also Nick Price was a good one and as someone pointed out – Walter Hagen !
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can we fill in the timeline starting now and going backwards in time It has to be players who were dominant for lets say at least 3 years, if not 5, ie we can ignore single hot seasons like O’meara in 98, Couples in 92 etc Im thinking Woods Faldo Norman Ballesteros (Langer?) Watson Nicklaus Palmer Hogan Snead Nelson Sarazen Jones Im a bit fuzzy about the stuff between the Tom Morris-es and Jones although I know Vardon, Braid and Taylor are in there also Im more interested in the more modern era though, since the "proper" ball etc Have i skipped anyone – please elaborate with information as to their dominating periods. Sure I could look this up, but its fun listening to guys who actually sat through these periods. I wasnt totally into golf in the 80s (to my eternal sorrow) so missed Seve and Greg, sort of caught the Faldo era, and then Woods of course. Im also talking about guys who were the "dogs bollocks", not just guys who were very good or won a lot, but the real hall of famers who had no equal over a period of time. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Player? — Alan Campbell
— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
I would put Nick Price along with Faldo.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can we fill in the timeline starting now and going backwards in time It has to be players who were dominant for lets say at least 3 years, if not 5, ie we can ignore single hot seasons like O’meara in 98, Couples in 92 etc Im thinking Woods Faldo Norman Ballesteros (Langer?) Watson Nicklaus Palmer Hogan Snead Nelson Sarazen Jones Im a bit fuzzy about the stuff between the Tom Morris-es and Jones although I know Vardon, Braid and Taylor are in there also Im more interested in the more modern era though, since the "proper" ball etc Have i skipped anyone – please elaborate with information as to their dominating periods. Sure I could look this up, but its fun listening to guys who actually sat through these periods. I wasnt totally into golf in the 80s (to my eternal sorrow) so missed Seve and Greg, sort of caught the Faldo era, and then Woods of course. Im also talking about guys who were the "dogs bollocks", not just guys who were very good or won a lot, but the real hall of famers who had no equal over a period of time. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can we fill in the timeline starting now and going backwards in time It has to be players who were dominant for lets say at least 3 years, if not 5, ie we can ignore single hot seasons like O’meara in 98, Couples in 92 etc Im thinking Woods Faldo Norman Ballesteros (Langer?) Watson Nicklaus Palmer Hogan Snead Nelson Sarazen Jones Im a bit fuzzy about the stuff between the Tom Morris-es and Jones although I know Vardon, Braid and Taylor are in there also Im more interested in the more modern era though, since the "proper" ball etc Have i skipped anyone – please elaborate with information as to their dominating periods. Sure I could look this up, but its fun listening to guys who actually sat through these periods. I wasnt totally into golf in the 80s (to my eternal sorrow) so missed Seve and Greg, sort of caught the Faldo era, and then Woods of course. Im also talking about guys who were the "dogs bollocks", not just guys who were very good or won a lot, but the real hall of famers who had no equal over a period of time. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Player? — Alan Campbell
Can we fill in the timeline starting now and going backwards in time It has to be players who were dominant for lets say at least 3 years, if not 5, ie we can ignore single hot seasons like O’meara in 98, Couples in 92 etc Im thinking Woods Faldo Norman Ballesteros (Langer?) Watson Nicklaus Palmer Hogan Snead Nelson Sarazen Jones Im a bit fuzzy about the stuff between the Tom Morris-es and Jones although I know Vardon, Braid and Taylor are in there also Im more interested in the more modern era though, since the "proper" ball etc Have i skipped anyone – please elaborate with information as to their dominating periods. Sure I could look this up, but its fun listening to guys who actually sat through these periods. I wasnt totally into golf in the 80s (to my eternal sorrow) so missed Seve and Greg, sort of caught the Faldo era, and then Woods of course. Im also talking about guys who were the "dogs bollocks", not just guys who were very good or won a lot, but the real hall of famers who had no equal over a period of time. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Starting in 1970 here were your multiple winners on TOUR… 70 – Casper (3) 71 – Trevino (5), Nicklaus (4), Palmer (3) 72 – Nicklaus (7), Trevino (3) 73 – Nicklaus (7), Weiskopf, Crampton (4) 74 – Miller (8), H. Green, Stockton (3) 75 – Nicklaus (5), Miller (4), Littler (3) 76 – H. Green, Crenshaw (3) 77 – T. Watson (4), Nicklaus (3) 78 – T. Watson (5), Player, Bean, Nicklaus (3) 79 – T. Watson (5), L. Graham (3) 80 – T. Watson (6), Trevino (3) 81 – Lietzke, T. Watson, Floyd, Rogers (3) 82 – Peete, Stadler (4), T. Watson, Floyd, L. Wadkins, Gilder (3) 83 – No multiple winners 84 – T. Watson, D. Watson (3) 85 – Strange, L. Wadkins (3) 86 – Tway (4), Zoeller (3) 87 – Strange, Azinger (3) 88 – Strange (4), Lyle (3) 89 – Kite (3) 90 – Levi (4) 91 – No multiple winners 92 – Couples, Love III, Cook (3) 93 – Price (4), Azinger (3) 94 – Price (5), McCumber (3) 95 – Janzen, Norman (3) 96 – Mickelson (4), Brooks (3) 97 – Woods (4), Duval (3) 98 – Duval (4) There’s two ways to look at this. One is to note that in more recent years, there aren’t as many multiple winners per year. In the ’70s and early ’80s, it was common for there two be more than two multiple winners each….. In fact, though the players who do dominate seem to do so for a shorter period of time than they did back in the "good ol’ days,"
This is the key point. Look at your own data; look at the number of multiple winner years Watson had, Nicklaus had; Palmer had; Trevino had. Multiple win years are still possible, even for older golfers. So why do we only get great golf from a "star" for just a couple of years? Look at Fred Couples. Would his attitude be the same if he had to work to stay on the PGA tour? I don’t mind the incessant hype over someone who IS winning. The Woods stuff got out of hand AFTER he stopped winning more than once in a while. The Duval hype is well deserved. I will boldly predict that Woods will NEVER be dominant. He will finish high, but fall short most of the time. I know I am contradicting a prediction made earlier that he will have a great year this year, but looking at him play, he doesn’t have any fire on Sunday. Duval at least gave it a shot, and finished ahead of Woods in the Masters. We shall see, however; but if the World Golf Championships get big ratings, the formula will be set! I liked the Anderson, not becasue there were big names in the finals, but because the finalists were clearly playing intense high pressure golf…not what you see in a typical PGA Tour event. Rob
How many more tournaments do you think Tiger or Duval would win if they played an additional 10-12 tournaments a year? One more win? Two more wins?
Based on Duval’s winning percentage over the last 18 months, he would win at least two more tounaments. Woods would probably not win any. In each of the last three years (counting ‘99), one of them has won four tournaments. Add another win or two, and now you’re starting to get into "dominant" win totals. But their theory is that the burn-out of the constant travel would take away their edge and they’d actually win less. Maybe yes, maybe no. We’ll probably never find out.
Burn out is a huge factor over the length of a season and career. These guys travel a lot and have to play top notch golf all of the time. I was really tired just flying back from Florida to Germany last week But if there’s a reason why there’s less domination today, it’s my opinion the reason isn’t the all-exempt TOUR. It’s that there are too darn many tournaments, and the best players can’t play in ‘em all, so some of the lesser-known guys bust through, thereby spreading the wealth — both of money and of wins.
I think that the all-exempt tour has had a detrimental affect on the tour. Monday qualifying was an arduous task. You had to play very well just to get in to a tournament. These days, you shoot one good round in a tournament and you have made a bunch of money. Having to qualify for a tournament would have meant that many golfers would not have had this opportunity. I have no problem with the tour spreading the wealth, and I really do not have any big gripe with the all-exempt tour. I do fell, though, that some of the drive has been reduced to perform at a top level wekk in and week out. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Randy
It would help if you think of golfers on the PGA Tour as what sells the TV rights and attracts the tournament sponsor money and corporate tents and sells tournament tickets, clubs, and apparel etc. Mid-ranked pros make as much by "endorsements" as they do by tournament winnings, and top-ranked pros make much much more from deals than from playing. The PGA Tour eligibility rules may not be COMPLETELY structured to keep baby-faced Fred and sweet-swingin’ Nicko around, even if their games are off, but they sure won’t change them if it adversely affects the lifeblood of the purses and other revenue streams for the players and PGA Tour brass. The compromise so far has been for things like the Tour Championship, limited to the season’s top-30 money winners, the Masters by invitation only, and funny-money specials like the Shoot-out, Skins, and Andresen. Your problem stems from the second-tier guys winning? or having to watch them win? If they win, well, that’s because they played better (and had a little good luck) better than everyone else in the tournament. If you don’t want them to win, shoot them. If you don’t want them to win SO OFTEN, then give your favorite pros a handicap. If you don’t like having to watch them win so often and feel deprived of the opportunity of watching your favorites, that’s a problem of tv braodcasting, following the leaders and trying to present the tournament as a dramatic conflict between contenders, with the result that they IGNORE everyone who is out of the running at least on Sunday, except for a few cameos of "notables." Wouldn’t you have the same problem if you reduced the field, unless the field was comprised only of your favorites? I say the extent to which favorites win is just how it goes, and Glory Be!! Hosannah! for the grinders who can whip such excellent golfers!!
I can’t disagree with your comments. The main thing that bothers me is that there has not been a real star emerge from the PGA Tour era. The only one they could claim is Watson, who really started in the PGA era. IMHO, what is happening now is that the really great golfers have a couple of good years, make the big bucks, get content, and just play out the rest of their career on the PGA Tour.
But then that is what separates the good players from the really great players – those golfers who were able to stay at the pinnacle of the game for longer than two or three good seasons. To be considered one of the best you must have had some longevity to your game. In the last two decades few players have stood out from the rest in this regard. The only players who have had any sort of domination in world golf (IMO) are Ballesteros, Norman and Faldo. Two of them aren’t PGA Tour regulars. Also none of them are American. Whether that says something about the PGA Tour and its effect on the players, I don’t know. At the end of the day the best barometer for greatness is still performance in the majors. The cream then does tend to rise to the top but every dog can have its day. If an "inferior" player beats the best players then his victory is all the more impressive. The US has been desperate for some home-grown talent to come along and dominate the game again. Of course when two candidates suddenly appear (DD and Tiger) all that happens is you start to squabble over who is the best rather than looking forward to their combined successes. Jim
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, Robert, but I have to disagree with you on this one. But maybe our disagreement lies primarily in our definition of the term "star." It could be argued that there haven’t been as many "dominant" players as there were back in the days of Hogan and Snead and Nelson. But let’s examine the record… The exact date of origin of the PGA TOUR is a little hard to pinpoint, but for the sake of this discussion, let’s look at 1968 as the date. That’s when the Association of Professional Golfers (APG), an autonomous tournament players’ organization formed in breakaway from the PGA. As a compromise, the Tournament Players Division of the PGA was formed under the aegis of a 10-man policy board. A year later, Joseph Dey was named first Commissioner of the Tournament Players Division. Dey is also generally recognized as the first commissioner of the PGA TOUR. Starting in 1970 here were your multiple winners on TOUR… 70 – Casper (3) 71 – Trevino (5), Nicklaus (4), Palmer (3) 72 – Nicklaus (7), Trevino (3) 73 – Nicklaus (7), Weiskopf, Crampton (4) 74 – Miller (8), H. Green, Stockton (3) 75 – Nicklaus (5), Miller (4), Littler (3) 76 – H. Green, Crenshaw (3) 77 – T. Watson (4), Nicklaus (3) 78 – T. Watson (5), Player, Bean, Nicklaus (3) 79 – T. Watson (5), L. Graham (3) 80 – T. Watson (6), Trevino (3) 81 – Lietzke, T. Watson, Floyd, Rogers (3) 82 – Peete, Stadler (4), T. Watson, Floyd, L. Wadkins, Gilder (3) 83 – No multiple winners 84 – T. Watson, D. Watson (3) 85 – Strange, L. Wadkins (3) 86 – Tway (4), Zoeller (3) 87 – Strange, Azinger (3) 88 – Strange (4), Lyle (3) 89 – Kite (3) 90 – Levi (4) 91 – No multiple winners 92 – Couples, Love III, Cook (3) 93 – Price (4), Azinger (3) 94 – Price (5), McCumber (3) 95 – Janzen, Norman (3) 96 – Mickelson (4), Brooks (3) 97 – Woods (4), Duval (3) 98 – Duval (4) There’s two ways to look at this. One is to note that in more recent years, there aren’t as many multiple winners per year. In the ’70s and early ’80s, it was common for there two be more than two multiple winners each year. In the 90’s, there’s never been more than two (though I think my reference book may be in error — I’d swear Lehman won 3 in ‘96). But in any case, it’s rare that more than two players win multiple titles in recent years. That would seem to fly in the face of your theory. In fact, though the players who do dominate seem to do so for a shorter period of time than they did back in the "good ol’ days," it’s noteworthy to recall some of the champions on this list who have emerged in the PGA TOUR era. Clearly they are stars of the game… Nicklaus, Trevino, T. Watson, Miller, Strange, Price. And who knows how many years Duval will sit atop the list? And what about some others who, though they’ve never been regular PGA TOUR players (they play in Europe), are/were dominant in world golf — Faldo, Ballesteros, Langer. The ironic thing about what you’re implying — that golf needs dominant stars — is that every time TV tries to build up a player (they realize the drawing power of a "star," too), folks like those in RSG go apoplectic over their incessant hyping of the player. Another thing you haven’t factored in is that today, there are roughly 40 tournaments each year on the TOUR schedule. Back in Hogan’s day, there were maybe 25. It was easier for a player to make the majority of TOUR stops, whereas today, what with all the sponsor commitments, banquets to attend and other non-golf related schmoozing that’s become a part of the business side of a TOUR player’s life, it’s easy to understand why the guys who perennially finish in the top 25 don’t want to play in more than about 20-25 events a year. It’s too much of a drain. And that gives the Joe Durants of the world an opportunity to break through and win occasionally. But when you have a gathering of the top players in the world, such as at The Players Championship, it’s rare that you don’t see the cream rise to the top. I think the real culprit in creating the perception that there’s no dominant player today is that the schedule is too long. Too many tournaments means all of the top players will skip a percentage of those events, which will weaken the overall field. The sponsors know it, the TOUR knows it. That’s why they’re constantly tweaking the schedule, moving tournaments around — trying to make it as enticing as possible to attract the best players to each event. But there’s no way around it — Tiger’s gonna play 18-22 tournaments a year come hell or high water, Duval’s gonna make about 24-28, Love will play about 25, etc. All the big names limit their play, it’s just too much of a drain to be out there for 30-40 weeks a year. And when those guys aren’t in the field, the other lesser-known guys are gonna get their chances. How many more tournaments do you think Tiger or Duval would win if they played an additional 10-12 tournaments a year? One more win? Two more wins? In each of the last three years (counting ‘99), one of them has won four tournaments. Add another win or two, and now you’re starting to get into "dominant" win totals. But their theory is that the burn-out of the constant travel would take away their edge and they’d actually win less. Maybe yes, maybe no. We’ll probably never find out. But if there’s a reason why there’s less domination today, it’s my opinion the reason isn’t the all-exempt TOUR. It’s that there are too darn many tournaments, and the best players can’t play in ‘em all, so some of the lesser-known guys bust through, thereby spreading the wealth — both of money and of wins. Randy
Great post Randy. You summed up the problem correctly. Andy
I can’t disagree with your comments. The main thing that bothers me is that there has not been a real star emerge from the PGA Tour era. The only one they could claim is Watson, who really started in the PGA era. IMHO, what is happening now is that the really great golfers have a couple of good years, make the big bucks, get content, and just play out the rest of their career on the PGA Tour. They really don’t have to do much to keep their PGA Tour status. Thus we NEVER see a tournament where two or more great golfers are duking it out down the back nine on Sunday. Hogan/Sneed, Palmer/Nicklaus, Trevino/Nicklaus, Watson/Nicklaus…and that’s the end of the line, 20 years ago. As it is now, PGA Tour status is a given for the better golfers…they don’t really HAVE to work all that hard at it to stay in the top 125, which was NOT the case for Hogan, Snead or Palmer, who had to be in the top 10 or so every year. I think the top golfers will somehow be separated from the rest, as tournaments that do this get more attention (ie generate more income), and when money talks in modern golf, everyone listens (E. F. Hutton is out of business!). Rob
some other stuff snipped out….. What I think *is* interesting about your premise is how a superbly talented player, like David Duval, can rise above what is clearly a raised bar. It makes his accomplishments of the past two years all the more admirable. Randy
– http://www.mc.edu/~rhamilto
Robert Hamilton wrote … I can’t disagree with your comments. The main thing that bothers me is that there has not been a real star emerge from the PGA Tour era.
Sorry, Robert, but I have to disagree with you on this one. But maybe our disagreement lies primarily in our definition of the term "star." It could be argued that there haven’t been as many "dominant" players as there were back in the days of Hogan and Snead and Nelson. But let’s examine the record… The exact date of origin of the PGA TOUR is a little hard to pinpoint, but for the sake of this discussion, let’s look at 1968 as the date. That’s when the Association of Professional Golfers (APG), an autonomous tournament players’ organization formed in breakaway from the PGA. As a compromise, the Tournament Players Division of the PGA was formed under the aegis of a 10-man policy board. A year later, Joseph Dey was named first Commissioner of the Tournament Players Division. Dey is also generally recognized as the first commissioner of the PGA TOUR. Starting in 1970 here were your multiple winners on TOUR… 70 – Casper (3) 71 – Trevino (5), Nicklaus (4), Palmer (3) 72 – Nicklaus (7), Trevino (3) 73 – Nicklaus (7), Weiskopf, Crampton (4) 74 – Miller (8), H. Green, Stockton (3) 75 – Nicklaus (5), Miller (4), Littler (3) 76 – H. Green, Crenshaw (3) 77 – T. Watson (4), Nicklaus (3) 78 – T. Watson (5), Player, Bean, Nicklaus (3) 79 – T. Watson (5), L. Graham (3) 80 – T. Watson (6), Trevino (3) 81 – Lietzke, T. Watson, Floyd, Rogers (3) 82 – Peete, Stadler (4), T. Watson, Floyd, L. Wadkins, Gilder (3) 83 – No multiple winners 84 – T. Watson, D. Watson (3) 85 – Strange, L. Wadkins (3) 86 – Tway (4), Zoeller (3) 87 – Strange, Azinger (3) 88 – Strange (4), Lyle (3) 89 – Kite (3) 90 – Levi (4) 91 – No multiple winners 92 – Couples, Love III, Cook (3) 93 – Price (4), Azinger (3) 94 – Price (5), McCumber (3) 95 – Janzen, Norman (3) 96 – Mickelson (4), Brooks (3) 97 – Woods (4), Duval (3) 98 – Duval (4) There’s two ways to look at this. One is to note that in more recent years, there aren’t as many multiple winners per year. In the ’70s and early ’80s, it was common for there two be more than two multiple winners each year. In the 90’s, there’s never been more than two (though I think my reference book may be in error — I’d swear Lehman won 3 in ‘96). But in any case, it’s rare that more than two players win multiple titles in recent years. That would seem to fly in the face of your theory. In fact, though the players who do dominate seem to do so for a shorter period of time than they did back in the "good ol’ days," it’s noteworthy to recall some of the champions on this list who have emerged in the PGA TOUR era. Clearly they are stars of the game… Nicklaus, Trevino, T. Watson, Miller, Strange, Price. And who knows how many years Duval will sit atop the list? And what about some others who, though they’ve never been regular PGA TOUR players (they play in Europe), are/were dominant in world golf — Faldo, Ballesteros, Langer. The ironic thing about what you’re implying — that golf needs dominant stars — is that every time TV tries to build up a player (they realize the drawing power of a "star," too), folks like those in RSG go apoplectic over their incessant hyping of the player. Another thing you haven’t factored in is that today, there are roughly 40 tournaments each year on the TOUR schedule. Back in Hogan’s day, there were maybe 25. It was easier for a player to make the majority of TOUR stops, whereas today, what with all the sponsor commitments, banquets to attend and other non-golf related schmoozing that’s become a part of the business side of a TOUR player’s life, it’s easy to understand why the guys who perennially finish in the top 25 don’t want to play in more than about 20-25 events a year. It’s too much of a drain. And that gives the Joe Durants of the world an opportunity to break through and win occasionally. But when you have a gathering of the top players in the world, such as at The Players Championship, it’s rare that you don’t see the cream rise to the top. I think the real culprit in creating the perception that there’s no dominant player today is that the schedule is too long. Too many tournaments means all of the top players will skip a percentage of those events, which will weaken the overall field. The sponsors know it, the TOUR knows it. That’s why they’re constantly tweaking the schedule, moving tournaments around — trying to make it as enticing as possible to attract the best players to each event. But there’s no way around it — Tiger’s gonna play 18-22 tournaments a year come hell or high water, Duval’s gonna make about 24-28, Love will play about 25, etc. All the big names limit their play, it’s just too much of a drain to be out there for 30-40 weeks a year. And when those guys aren’t in the field, the other lesser-known guys are gonna get their chances. How many more tournaments do you think Tiger or Duval would win if they played an additional 10-12 tournaments a year? One more win? Two more wins? In each of the last three years (counting ‘99), one of them has won four tournaments. Add another win or two, and now you’re starting to get into "dominant" win totals. But their theory is that the burn-out of the constant travel would take away their edge and they’d actually win less. Maybe yes, maybe no. We’ll probably never find out. But if there’s a reason why there’s less domination today, it’s my opinion the reason isn’t the all-exempt TOUR. It’s that there are too darn many tournaments, and the best players can’t play in ‘em all, so some of the lesser-known guys bust through, thereby spreading the wealth — both of money and of wins. Randy
Medullosa wrote .. Tournament golf has declined in quality since the PGA Tour came into being; not becasue the AVERAGE tour golfer is worse, the average tour golfer is clearly better. The problem with current PGA Tour practice is that the cream does not rise to the top.
To be truthful, it never has. Though our recollection of the past brings to mind the great champions — the Nelsons and Hogans and Sarazens and Sneads and Hagens — the fact of the matter is, if you looked at a week-by-week, tournament-by-tournament run-down of who the winners were, week in and week out, you’d discover a good many names you’ve never heard of. Quite a few more than you think, which explains why you don’t remember them. But one thing you said is right on the mark — the overall level of play is better today than it’s ever been. It could be argued that the "best" players today aren’t quite at the level that the "best" players of all-time were at (there are good arguments on both sides of that debate, and I’m not looking to start that debate), but there’s no doubt about this — the lower-tier players on TOUR are better today than the lower-tier players of yesteryear. It’s not that the cream doesn’t rise to the top, it’s just that there’s more cream out there. We don’t get to see best against best too often because of all the clearly inferior (to the very best) golfers on the PGA Tour. We don’t get to see pairings of top players anymore because you always get a Mize, Pate, Brown or Durant getting in there week after week.
Same thing was true "back in the day." Though you can certainly point to a classic duel here and there in which a Hogan and a Snead came down the final few holes neck-and-neck, for every Hogan/Snead pairing, there were five Palmer/Nobody pairings when Arnie was in his prime. That hasn’t changed. It’s just that we tend to remember the headlines, not the specifics. These guys are good players, but clearly not in the same league as a Norman or a Woods or a Duval. However, in golf, a good enoigh player can be great from time to time, and with so many such players, the cream gets emulsified.
It’s a little disingenuous of you, as one of the consistent Tiger-bashers in the group, to assert that a player, or group of players, is inherantly "better" without having to measure up to the weekly test. The great thing about golf is that each player needn’t rely on his wide receiver, or his pitcher, or his goalie, to make a play. His destiny is in his own hands. If he wants to prove he’s the best, there’s one way to do it — go out and shoot the lowest number. That’s been the argument against Tiger — stop hyping the guy and let him prove it or not. Whether any player is, as you said, "clearly not in the same league" as another player is merely a judgement — it is clearly not relavent. The players who are "clearly better" that week are the ones whose names are at the top of the leaderboard. That’s how they measured it in the days of Old Tom Morris, and that’s how they measure it in the days of David Duval. And it’ll be the way they measure it in the days of Leroy Jetson. I imagine when those days arrive, somebody will reminisce about the good ol’ days when those old farts, Duval and Woods used to march up the 72nd hole dueling it out. But to date, that’s never happened on a Sunday. I think it would be better to require some sort of consistent performance from a player to let them get a shot at the big time, the big guys. After all, it is the interest in the big guys that make the money for them all. So heres a solution! Only 72 exempt players on the PGA tour; only 72 exempt
Sorry, [snipped] lengthy suggestion. My eyes glazed over… Fewer exempt players would, without a doubt, insure more of a "star system." But it ain’t gonna happen. But that’s sort of what they’ve tried to create with the World Golf Championship series. Only the world’s top players are invited. The lesser-known guys are belly-aching over it — meanwhile, they’re playing for a $400,000 top prize the same week at a Tucson Open or somesuch. So their complaints fall on deaf ears. What I think *is* interesting about your premise is how a superbly talented player, like David Duval, can rise above what is clearly a raised bar. It makes his accomplishments of the past two years all the more admirable. Randy
Just remember, two years ago you would have included Duval in the list of "nobodies" as you want to call them. He hadn’t won until then so why give him a chance to make your list. How would anyone ever get into your list if they didn’t get the chance to play with the so called "quality" players. Maybe we should do this for all sports. Lets see we could only have the Chicago Bulls in basketball, Yankees in baseball etc. But then they would not have anybody to play. What makes golf such a great sport is that anyone can play on any given day with the so called Big guys. Ever notice TV shows Tiger regardless where he is in the standings. Not that he is so much better but $$$$$$$, that’s the only reason. Why be so elitist? Enjoy!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tournament golf has declined in quality since the PGA Tour came into being; not becasue the AVERAGE tour golfer is worse, the average tour golfer is clearly better. The problem with current PGA Tour practice is that the cream does not rise to the top. We don’t get to see best against best too often because of all the clearly inferior (to the very best) golfers on the PGA Tour. We don’t get to see pairings of top players anymore because you always get a Mize, Pate, Brown or Durant getting in there week after week. These guys are good players, but clearly not in the same league as a Norman or a Woods or a Duval. However, in golf, a good enoigh player can be great from time to time, and with so many such players, the cream gets emulsified. I think it would be better to require some sort of consistent performance from a player to let them get a shot at the big time, the big guys. After all, it is the interest in the big guys that make the money for them all. So heres a solution! Only 72 exempt players on the PGA tour; only 72 exempt players maximum in any given tournament. 36, and only 36 play the weekend. Rounds wed, thur. Firday for cut playoff and rounds again sat and sun. PGA Tour events once every two weeks Each exempt PGA tour player guaranteed $250K; payout at end of year to those who don’t make $250K. 36 lowest players each year lose their card, but get a full Nike card. Top 36 from Nike to PGA Tour the following year. Nike has 144 exempt players. 72 fully exempt; guaranteed $100K. These 72 are 36 from previous years PGA Tour that got sent down and 2nd 36 from previous years Nike. Other 72 fully exempt, no money guarantee. Add more money to Nike purses. Nike events every two weeks, alternate with PGA Tour events. Bottom 36 on Nike lose Nike card. Top 36 from Q school to Nike. By alternating PGA Tour and Nike Tour events, you should generate more interest in the Nike Tour. Having players like Zoeller and Faldo on the Nike Tour should also make it a better tour. If players like Nike and Faldo don’t want to be in the second violins, they need to play better!…not insist that the level of the orchestra be brought down by their lack of consistency and ability. (I chose these guys based on rankings only). Bottom line is that if you want to stay on the big tour consistently, you need to be in the top 36 consistently. Doesn’t matter who you are. Only a few players could do this year after year, and we know who they are for that reason. The rest are the rest and live off of the attention drawn by the quality of play of the BEST. The best should always get the lions share of the proceeds. I think there would be more interest in tournaments, and not too many players could slough off a tournament without risking their playing privileges. Won’t happen, of course. Can’t have Fred Couples on the Nike Tour. He’s made too much money from golf…er, ahh correct that, contributed too much to the game <g. Pro golfers want security, but in a competitive sport, security breeeds complacency which produces lower levels of play and lower quality AT THE TOP..on AVERAGE! The odd tournament, like the Masters, essentially tries to choose only the top pros from the previous year, plus a few amateurs and revered older players…so we get a good, competitive tournament. Of course, complacency is harming all pro sports..ever try to watch a pro basketball regular season game…yawn…..most pro football games….yawn….I can’t get through the intro to a baseball game! Rob.
Tournament golf has declined in quality since the PGA Tour came into being; not becasue the AVERAGE tour golfer is worse, the average tour golfer is clearly better. The problem with current PGA Tour practice is that the cream does not rise to the top. We don’t get to see best against best too often because of all the clearly inferior (to the very best) golfers on the PGA Tour. We don’t get to see pairings of top players anymore because you always get a Mize, Pate, Brown or Durant getting in there week after week. These guys are good players, but clearly not in the same league as a Norman or a Woods or a Duval. However, in golf, a good enoigh player can be great from time to time, and with so many such players, the cream gets emulsified. I think it would be better to require some sort of consistent performance from a player to let them get a shot at the big time, the big guys. After all, it is the interest in the big guys that make the money for them all. So heres a solution! Only 72 exempt players on the PGA tour; only 72 exempt players maximum in any given tournament. 36, and only 36 play the weekend. Rounds wed, thur. Firday for cut playoff and rounds again sat and sun. PGA Tour events once every two weeks Each exempt PGA tour player guaranteed $250K; payout at end of year to those who don’t make $250K. 36 lowest players each year lose their card, but get a full Nike card. Top 36 from Nike to PGA Tour the following year. Nike has 144 exempt players. 72 fully exempt; guaranteed $100K. These 72 are 36 from previous years PGA Tour that got sent down and 2nd 36 from previous years Nike. Other 72 fully exempt, no money guarantee. Add more money to Nike purses. Nike events every two weeks, alternate with PGA Tour events. Bottom 36 on Nike lose Nike card. Top 36 from Q school to Nike. By alternating PGA Tour and Nike Tour events, you should generate more interest in the Nike Tour. Having players like Zoeller and Faldo on the Nike Tour should also make it a better tour. If players like Nike and Faldo don’t want to be in the second violins, they need to play better!…not insist that the level of the orchestra be brought down by their lack of consistency and ability. (I chose these guys based on rankings only). Bottom line is that if you want to stay on the big tour consistently, you need to be in the top 36 consistently. Doesn’t matter who you are. Only a few players could do this year after year, and we know who they are for that reason. The rest are the rest and live off of the attention drawn by the quality of play of the BEST. The best should always get the lions share of the proceeds. I think there would be more interest in tournaments, and not too many players could slough off a tournament without risking their playing privileges. Won’t happen, of course. Can’t have Fred Couples on the Nike Tour. He’s made too much money from golf…er, ahh correct that, contributed too much to the game <g. Pro golfers want security, but in a competitive sport, security breeeds complacency which produces lower levels of play and lower quality AT THE TOP..on AVERAGE! The odd tournament, like the Masters, essentially tries to choose only the top pros from the previous year, plus a few amateurs and revered older players…so we get a good, competitive tournament. Of course, complacency is harming all pro sports..ever try to watch a pro basketball regular season game…yawn…..most pro football games….yawn….I can’t get through the intro to a baseball game! Rob.
There are plenty of discussions here about the PGA TOUR. Have at it. Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this group about the PGA Tour Golf or is there another NG specifically for that?
What is the best news group or websites to get the happenings day by day on the PGA tournaments. not the scores , comments on form , and reports of play etc regards terry p
What is the best news group or websites to get the happenings day by day on the PGA tournaments. not the scores , comments on form , and reports of play etc regards terry p
Terry: Put up your feet, grab a cold one and hang out for a while. -Mother T-
What is the best news group or websites to get the happenings day by day on the PGA tournaments. not the scores , comments on form , and reports of play etc
I’m not bashing you Terry, but… Group, this is the reason I was so harsh to the guy that asked about computer golf games. This PGA Tour question was asked less than a week ago. If people knew of the google archives, we could eliminate a lot of this. Wayne — Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=huffordw
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the best news group or websites to get the happenings day by day on the PGA tournaments. not the scores , comments on form , and reports of play etc I’m not bashing you Terry, but… Group, this is the reason I was so harsh to the guy that asked about computer golf games. This PGA Tour question was asked less than a week ago. If people knew of the google archives, we could eliminate a lot of this. Wayne — Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=huffordw
I’m not bashing you Terry, but… Group, this is the reason I was so harsh to the guy that asked about computer golf games. This PGA Tour question was asked less than a week ago. If people knew of the google archives, we could eliminate a lot of this. Wayne — Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=huffordw
To make more room for cable modem discussions?
Is this group about the PGA Tour Golf or is there another NG specifically for that?
For whatever reason the professional tours don’t generate as much interest here as in the past…3 or 4 year ago? If you like the "PGA Tour" feel free to start a thread/discussion on a topic and people will respond to you. The pro tour threads usually are a lot of fun and generate a lively discussion when they appear here. You can also try: www.thegolfchannel.com and join the discussion board there.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this group about the PGA Tour Golf or is there another NG specifically for that?
Ah, You call Tigers little strut the moon-walk. What do you call the moon-walk ? Don
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . Try to tell me that Tiger doesn’t put the extra mustard and sneer on his fist-pump and the little strut he does is what I call the moon-walk.
Perhaps it’s a sign of the times. If you visit your local high school you might see what I mean. Many young people today do not share the same values that Jack, Arnold, and Gary exibited a few years ago.
You could pick better examples. The gold standard in golf is Bobby Jones but you may recall that he had problems with temper in his early days. OTOH, while it is true that many don’t have good values, many do. I know about 15 of the kids on my sons high school golf team and for the most part, they are all great kids. And in golf, they not only play well, but dress well, conduct themselves well, and respect the rules.
JustinLeonard is young. He came out on the tour at 22. You never see any of this stuff from him. Ken
Actually, these days you don’t see much of anything out of him. William Clark
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jack defines being a gentlman. He was the most gracious in defeat. Have a close look at the Open at Turnberry in 1977. Look at the interaction between him and Watson on the 72nd green. Jack said that he gave it his best shot and it wasn’t good enough. You want to talk about class ? No cursing. No thrown clubs. No whacks at trees. No spitting on greens. Tiger couldn’t carry Jack’s briefcase when it comes to grace under fire. Tiger spits on greens? Btw, Jack threw a club at St. Andrews. It was a horrible display. It was fun being at East Lake on Wednesday when they gave out the first "Payne Stewart Award." The first 3 recipients were Byron Nelson, Arnold Palmer, and Jack Nicklaus. It was great to see old Byron again as he hobbled up to the lecturn to give a nice speech about Payne. Arnold also had a few nice words to say. But where was Jack? He had better things to do, I suppose. Now imagine the uproar had Tiger been one of the recipients and missed the ceremony. Exactly. I think Tiger gets a bad rap from some simply because he is young and success has come, from their perspective, far too easily. This is not to condone Tiger’s behavior or condemn others, but these guys are just great golfers, not paragons of virtue. Becoming angry and having an anger problem are two different things.
You don’t think that TW also gets a bad rap because (whisper it gently) of the color of his skin? They will adamantly deny it, of course, but it does really gall the country club set to see him clean up in such an Anglo-Saxon game. William Clark
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Clinton is guilty of perjury. Clinton is guilty of obstruction of justice. Clinton has been held in contempt by a federal judge. Clinton may be disbarred in his home state. Stand by and watch as he and his regime are turned away today. The only mistake will be in NewYork and HRH Hillary. Ken Oh, hooey! "Why not, just once? Why not finish 2nd…and do it in sportsmanlike manner?" Check out his loss to Sutton where Hal hit his second shot really close and Woods flashed him a thumbs up. Even the commentators mentioned what a sportsmanlike gesture. There’s your answer, so don’t keep repeating a question asked and answered. Write it down, print the email, but stop pretending it never happened. You won’t give him any credit at all for that. How come? Extra mustard? Hasn’t Chi put some "extra mustard" on his saber dances for decades? Done many times over any celebration Woods shows. But not a peep of complaint out of you over that. How come? Could you not have seen the PGA commercial showing all the celebrations by tour players over the years? You never criticize that. How come? As Annika points out, St Jack has thrown clubs – but you refuse to admit it, just flat out refuse. How come? If Woods threw his club in the air and his opponent had to duck to avoid getting clobbered you’d call for his expulsion and a grand jury. But with St Jack, its OK. How come? Because its a celebration? "Duh, yer honor, I just fired the gun cause I was so happy….didn’t meant to hit him." As for Clinton, noteworthy that last night two Republican members of Congress said that if he ran again, he’d be elected. Here’s some logic for you: Any problem Woods has with anger disappears in comparison with the obsessive bias you show against him. Call your minister friend for counseling. And you are biased (perhaps I should say pre-disposed) to issue a free pass to Tiger every time he has a blow up. This week it was constant whining, scowling and histrionics. Ultimately a thrown club, a whack at a tree after he didn’t like a shot and a Goddammit on the 71st hole when his tee shot in the bunker showed that he was not going to win this week. Why not, just once ? Why not finish 2nd or down the list in a tournament and do it in a sportsmanlike manner ? You just had to bring Jack into this. Jack defines being a gentlman. He was the most gracious in defeat. Have a close look at the Open at Turnberry in 1977. Look at the interaction between him and Watson on the 72nd green. Jack said that he gave it his best shot and it wasn’t good enough. You want to talk about class ? No cursing. No thrown clubs. No whacks at trees. No spitting on greens. Tiger couldn’t carry Jack’s briefcase when it comes to grace under fire. It never stops with him. Duval has an instance or two, but probably not 10% as many as Tiger. Jack was always a gentleman. That putter deal was done in pure elation, not as a temper display. Try to tell me that Tiger doesn’t put the extra mustard and sneer on his fist-pump and the little strut he does is what I call the moon-walk. How should I be about his behavior ? He has been out-of-line since he first came out in 1996. "Oh, look. Tiger’s having another temper fit. Isn’t he wonderful ? I just adore him.". Here’s some logic for you. Tiger has a behavior problem and an anger problem. I find it surprising when he plays an entire tournament without one of these. He is a poor example for the young people who worship him. I cannot believe that you ignore his outbursts in spite of the frequency. You probably ignore Clinton’s law-breaking too. Ken And St. Jack can nearly kill his opponent with a putter thrown 20 feet in the air – that’s OK. St. David can dig up the fairway in a temper tantrum – that’s OK. Sergio can throw his shoe into the gallery – that’s OK. Tom Lehman and Hal Sutton can fist pump – and that’s OK. I’ll say one thing for you Ken, you’re consistent in your bias and illogicalities. P.S. You apparently don’t know a moon walk from your left cheek. Why should something meaningless like an embroidery on a caddies’ cap be the source of any hard feelings anyway ? Tiger can dish it out with all his moon-walking and fist-pumping, but he can’t take it in return. Ken We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
Sorry, Ken, but the only reason that "Clinton and his regime" might be turned away today is that Clinton ISN’T running. If he were, he’d kick the pants off either of the sorry pair that are. That’s not a moral judgement, or a defence, but it’s just a fact and borne out by all the commentators and polls that have studied the question. William Clark
Clinton is guilty of perjury. Clinton is guilty of obstruction of justice. Clinton has been held in contempt by a federal judge. Clinton may be disbarred in his home state. Stand by and watch as he and his regime are turned away today. The only mistake will be in NewYork and HRH Hillary. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Oh, hooey! "Why not, just once? Why not finish 2nd…and do it in sportsmanlike manner?" Check out his loss to Sutton where Hal hit his second shot really close and Woods flashed him a thumbs up. Even the commentators mentioned what a sportsmanlike gesture. There’s your answer, so don’t keep repeating a question asked and answered. Write it down, print the email, but stop pretending it never happened. You won’t give him any credit at all for that. How come? Extra mustard? Hasn’t Chi put some "extra mustard" on his saber dances for decades? Done many times over any celebration Woods shows. But not a peep of complaint out of you over that. How come? Could you not have seen the PGA commercial showing all the celebrations by tour players over the years? You never criticize that. How come? As Annika points out, St Jack has thrown clubs – but you refuse to admit it, just flat out refuse. How come? If Woods threw his club in the air and his opponent had to duck to avoid getting clobbered you’d call for his expulsion and a grand jury. But with St Jack, its OK. How come? Because its a celebration? "Duh, yer honor, I just fired the gun cause I was so happy….didn’t meant to hit him." As for Clinton, noteworthy that last night two Republican members of Congress said that if he ran again, he’d be elected. Here’s some logic for you: Any problem Woods has with anger disappears in comparison with the obsessive bias you show against him. Call your minister friend for counseling. And you are biased (perhaps I should say pre-disposed) to issue a free pass to Tiger every time he has a blow up. This week it was constant whining, scowling and histrionics. Ultimately a thrown club, a whack at a tree after he didn’t like a shot and a Goddammit on the 71st hole when his tee shot in the bunker showed that he was not going to win this week. Why not, just once ? Why not finish 2nd or down the list in a tournament and do it in a sportsmanlike manner ? You just had to bring Jack into this. Jack defines being a gentlman. He was the most gracious in defeat. Have a close look at the Open at Turnberry in 1977. Look at the interaction between him and Watson on the 72nd green. Jack said that he gave it his best shot and it wasn’t good enough. You want to talk about class ? No cursing. No thrown clubs. No whacks at trees. No spitting on greens. Tiger couldn’t carry Jack’s briefcase when it comes to grace under fire. It never stops with him. Duval has an instance or two, but probably not 10% as many as Tiger. Jack was always a gentleman. That putter deal was done in pure elation, not as a temper display. Try to tell me that Tiger doesn’t put the extra mustard and sneer on his fist-pump and the little strut he does is what I call the moon-walk. How should I be about his behavior ? He has been out-of-line since he first came out in 1996. "Oh, look. Tiger’s having another temper fit. Isn’t he wonderful ? I just adore him.". Here’s some logic for you. Tiger has a behavior problem and an anger problem. I find it surprising when he plays an entire tournament without one of these. He is a poor example for the young people who worship him. I cannot believe that you ignore his outbursts in spite of the frequency. You probably ignore Clinton’s law-breaking too. Ken And St. Jack can nearly kill his opponent with a putter thrown 20 feet in the air – that’s OK. St. David can dig up the fairway in a temper tantrum – that’s OK. Sergio can throw his shoe into the gallery – that’s OK. Tom Lehman and Hal Sutton can fist pump – and that’s OK. I’ll say one thing for you Ken, you’re consistent in your bias and illogicalities. P.S. You apparently don’t know a moon walk from your left cheek. Why should something meaningless like an embroidery on a caddies’ cap be the source of any hard feelings anyway ? Tiger can dish it out with all his moon-walking and fist-pumping, but he can’t take it in return. Ken We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
JustinLeonard is young. He came out on the tour at 22. You never see any of this stuff from him. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Exactly. I think Tiger gets a bad rap from some simply because he is young and success has come, from their perspective, far too easily. This is not to condone Tiger’s behavior or condemn others, but these guys are just great golfers, not paragons of virtue. Becoming angry and having an anger problem are two different things. Because they are professional golfers, it should follow that their closest inspection should have to do with their golf. For those expecting the "most gentlemanly" or the "best role model", you are looking in the wrong place, particularly on Sunday. Try church. 
Bruce RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
Tiger honked up a beauty when it was clear that he was not going to win. They had him on a tight close-up. All the commentator could say was "Oh.". Nicklaus threw his putter in the air on winning the Open. It was done in elation. Name some other instances of Nicklaus’ dubious behavior. Tiger has a list as long as your arm. As I said, I am suprised when Tiger makes it thru a tournament without a blow-up. Let’s see how he does this week. You’re another victim of selective amnesia when it comes to Tiger and his foul behavior on the golf course. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tiger spits on greens? Btw, Jack threw a club at St. Andrews. It was a horrible display. It was fun being at East Lake on Wednesday when they gave out the first "Payne Stewart Award." The first 3 recipients were Byron Nelson, Arnold Palmer, and Jack Nicklaus. It was great to see old Byron again as he hobbled up to the lecturn to give a nice speech about Payne. Arnold also had a few nice words to say. But where was Jack? He had better things to do, I suppose. Now imagine the uproar had Tiger been one of the recipients and missed the ceremony.
Perhaps it’s a sign of the times. If you visit your local high school you might see what I mean. Many young people today do not share the same values that Jack, Arnold, and Gary exibited a few years ago. Regardless, Tiger is a remarkable player that will hopefully "mellow" with maturity.
Oh, hooey! "Why not, just once? Why not finish 2nd…and do it in sportsmanlike manner?" Check out his loss to Sutton where Hal hit his second shot really close and Woods flashed him a thumbs up. Even the commentators mentioned what a sportsmanlike gesture. There’s your answer, so don’t keep repeating a question asked and answered. Write it down, print the email, but stop pretending it never happened. You won’t give him any credit at all for that. How come? Extra mustard? Hasn’t Chi put some "extra mustard" on his saber dances for decades? Done many times over any celebration Woods shows. But not a peep of complaint out of you over that. How come? Could you not have seen the PGA commercial showing all the celebrations by tour players over the years? You never criticize that. How come? As Annika points out, St Jack has thrown clubs – but you refuse to admit it, just flat out refuse. How come? If Woods threw his club in the air and his opponent had to duck to avoid getting clobbered you’d call for his expulsion and a grand jury. But with St Jack, its OK. How come? Because its a celebration? "Duh, yer honor, I just fired the gun cause I was so happy….didn’t meant to hit him." As for Clinton, noteworthy that last night two Republican members of Congress said that if he ran again, he’d be elected. Here’s some logic for you: Any problem Woods has with anger disappears in comparison with the obsessive bias you show against him. Call your minister friend for counseling.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And you are biased (perhaps I should say pre-disposed) to issue a free pass to Tiger every time he has a blow up. This week it was constant whining, scowling and histrionics. Ultimately a thrown club, a whack at a tree after he didn’t like a shot and a Goddammit on the 71st hole when his tee shot in the bunker showed that he was not going to win this week. Why not, just once ? Why not finish 2nd or down the list in a tournament and do it in a sportsmanlike manner ? You just had to bring Jack into this. Jack defines being a gentlman. He was the most gracious in defeat. Have a close look at the Open at Turnberry in 1977. Look at the interaction between him and Watson on the 72nd green. Jack said that he gave it his best shot and it wasn’t good enough. You want to talk about class ? No cursing. No thrown clubs. No whacks at trees. No spitting on greens. Tiger couldn’t carry Jack’s briefcase when it comes to grace under fire. It never stops with him. Duval has an instance or two, but probably not 10% as many as Tiger. Jack was always a gentleman. That putter deal was done in pure elation, not as a temper display. Try to tell me that Tiger doesn’t put the extra mustard and sneer on his fist-pump and the little strut he does is what I call the moon-walk. How should I be about his behavior ? He has been out-of-line since he first came out in 1996. "Oh, look. Tiger’s having another temper fit. Isn’t he wonderful ? I just adore him.". Here’s some logic for you. Tiger has a behavior problem and an anger problem. I find it surprising when he plays an entire tournament without one of these. He is a poor example for the young people who worship him. I cannot believe that you ignore his outbursts in spite of the frequency. You probably ignore Clinton’s law-breaking too. Ken And St. Jack can nearly kill his opponent with a putter thrown 20 feet in the air – that’s OK. St. David can dig up the fairway in a temper tantrum – that’s OK. Sergio can throw his shoe into the gallery – that’s OK. Tom Lehman and Hal Sutton can fist pump – and that’s OK. I’ll say one thing for you Ken, you’re consistent in your bias and illogicalities. P.S. You apparently don’t know a moon walk from your left cheek. Why should something meaningless like an embroidery on a caddies’ cap be the source of any hard feelings anyway ? Tiger can dish it out with all his moon-walking and fist-pumping, but he can’t take it in return. Ken We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jack defines being a gentlman. He was the most gracious in defeat. Have a close look at the Open at Turnberry in 1977. Look at the interaction between him and Watson on the 72nd green. Jack said that he gave it his best shot and it wasn’t good enough. You want to talk about class ? No cursing. No thrown clubs. No whacks at trees. No spitting on greens. Tiger couldn’t carry Jack’s briefcase when it comes to grace under fire. Tiger spits on greens? Btw, Jack threw a club at St. Andrews. It was a horrible display. It was fun being at East Lake on Wednesday when they gave out the first "Payne Stewart Award." The first 3 recipients were Byron Nelson, Arnold Palmer, and Jack Nicklaus. It was great to see old Byron again as he hobbled up to the lecturn to give a nice speech about Payne. Arnold also had a few nice words to say. But where was Jack? He had better things to do, I suppose. Now imagine the uproar had Tiger been one of the recipients and missed the ceremony.
Exactly. I think Tiger gets a bad rap from some simply because he is young and success has come, from their perspective, far too easily. This is not to condone Tiger’s behavior or condemn others, but these guys are just great golfers, not paragons of virtue. Becoming angry and having an anger problem are two different things. Because they are professional golfers, it should follow that their closest inspection should have to do with their golf. For those expecting the "most gentlemanly" or the "best role model", you are looking in the wrong place, particularly on Sunday. Try church. Bruce RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
Jack defines being a gentlman. He was the most gracious in defeat. Have a close look at the Open at Turnberry in 1977. Look at the interaction between him and Watson on the 72nd green. Jack said that he gave it his best shot and it wasn’t good enough. You want to talk about class ? No cursing. No thrown clubs. No whacks at trees. No spitting on greens. Tiger couldn’t carry Jack’s briefcase when it comes to grace under fire.
Tiger spits on greens? Btw, Jack threw a club at St. Andrews. It was a horrible display. It was fun being at East Lake on Wednesday when they gave out the first "Payne Stewart Award." The first 3 recipients were Byron Nelson, Arnold Palmer, and Jack Nicklaus. It was great to see old Byron again as he hobbled up to the lecturn to give a nice speech about Payne. Arnold also had a few nice words to say. But where was Jack? He had better things to do, I suppose. Now imagine the uproar had Tiger been one of the recipients and missed the ceremony.
Laugh Out Loud — Matt Aamold Charter Member, RSG Clique
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry to express my ignorance, but what does "LOL" mean
And you are biased (perhaps I should say pre-disposed) to issue a free pass to Tiger every time he has a blow up. This week it was constant whining, scowling and histrionics. Ultimately a thrown club, a whack at a tree after he didn’t like a shot and a Goddammit on the 71st hole when his tee shot in the bunker showed that he was not going to win this week. Why not, just once ? Why not finish 2nd or down the list in a tournament and do it in a sportsmanlike manner ? You just had to bring Jack into this. Jack defines being a gentlman. He was the most gracious in defeat. Have a close look at the Open at Turnberry in 1977. Look at the interaction between him and Watson on the 72nd green. Jack said that he gave it his best shot and it wasn’t good enough. You want to talk about class ? No cursing. No thrown clubs. No whacks at trees. No spitting on greens. Tiger couldn’t carry Jack’s briefcase when it comes to grace under fire. It never stops with him. Duval has an instance or two, but probably not 10% as many as Tiger. Jack was always a gentleman. That putter deal was done in pure elation, not as a temper display. Try to tell me that Tiger doesn’t put the extra mustard and sneer on his fist-pump and the little strut he does is what I call the moon-walk. How should I be about his behavior ? He has been out-of-line since he first came out in 1996. "Oh, look. Tiger’s having another temper fit. Isn’t he wonderful ? I just adore him.". Here’s some logic for you. Tiger has a behavior problem and an anger problem. I find it surprising when he plays an entire tournament without one of these. He is a poor example for the young people who worship him. I cannot believe that you ignore his outbursts in spite of the frequency. You probably ignore Clinton’s law-breaking too. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And St. Jack can nearly kill his opponent with a putter thrown 20 feet in the air – that’s OK. St. David can dig up the fairway in a temper tantrum – that’s OK. Sergio can throw his shoe into the gallery – that’s OK. Tom Lehman and Hal Sutton can fist pump – and that’s OK. I’ll say one thing for you Ken, you’re consistent in your bias and illogicalities. P.S. You apparently don’t know a moon walk from your left cheek. Why should something meaningless like an embroidery on a caddies’ cap be the source of any hard feelings anyway ? Tiger can dish it out with all his moon-walking and fist-pumping, but he can’t take it in return. Ken We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
LAUGH OUT LOUD (I believe). But what do your’s mean?! Charlie
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry to express my ignorance, but what does "LOL" mean? I know IMHO, FWIW, FYI, but I don’t get this one! We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
Why should something meaningless like an embroidery on a caddies’ cap be the source of any hard feelings anyway ? Tiger can dish it out with all his moon-walking and fist-pumping, but he can’t take it in return.
Hey, Ken, please let us know when you’ve completed your analysis of Tiger’s club toss yesterday. Looking forward to it. -joseph
I have a picture ot TIGGER Woods – I dread to think what all that bouncing Charlie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am one of Tigers biggest fans and have seen almost all of his television appearances, how did I miss the moon-walking ? Can you imagine what that would do to a green? Are you certain about this moon-walking, a la Michael Jackson ? Don Why should something meaningless like an embroidery on a caddies’ cap be the source of any hard feelings anyway ? Tiger can dish it out with all his moon-walking and fist-pumping, but he can’t take it in return. Ken We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
And St. Jack can nearly kill his opponent with a putter thrown 20 feet in the air – that’s OK. St. David can dig up the fairway in a temper tantrum – that’s OK. Sergio can throw his shoe into the gallery – that’s OK. Tom Lehman and Hal Sutton can fist pump – and that’s OK. I’ll say one thing for you Ken, you’re consistent in your bias and illogicalities. P.S. You apparently don’t know a moon walk from your left cheek.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why should something meaningless like an embroidery on a caddies’ cap be the source of any hard feelings anyway ? Tiger can dish it out with all his moon-walking and fist-pumping, but he can’t take it in return. Ken We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
I think whatever bad blood there might have been was between Tiger and Vijay’s caddy, not between Tiger and Vijay. Tiger said so. And I think characterizing it as "bad blood" may be overreaching a bit. Did Vijay’s caddy give Tiger a little extra incentive to win the match? Absolutely. Tiger made that abundantly clear in his post-round interviews and press conference. But "bad blood?" I don’t think so. Either way, you can bet that someone asked them both about it last night in the press conferences, and that ABC got a sound bite on video tape at the range this morning, and that the network will play up that angle. Unless of course by the time they sign on someone from way back has gone out and passed the leaders like Duffy Waldorf did last week. Then it would kind of spoil the story, rendering it useless. Either way, it is interesting to me that the two players who accounted for all four major championship titles this year would be in the final pairing of the final PGA TOUR event on American soil. (I hate qualifying that statement like that — The TOUR Championship should be the final official event of the year, period. And I believe it will be starting next year.) Randy Charter Member, RSG Clique BRAND NEW WEBSITE: www.YouGoGolf.com My RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html Voiceovers/Narration/Production Services: www.randybrownproductions.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
Sorry to express my ignorance, but what does "LOL" mean? I know IMHO, FWIW, FYI, but I don’t get this one!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
In fairness Ken, when has Tiger ever "dished out" anything to other players. And insofar as an inability to "take it," I’d say he "took it" rather well at The President’s Cup. It just gave him a strength of resolve, and he went out and won his match. No histrionics. Just solid enough play to win. I would think that’s what you’d want it to be all about. Randy Charter Member, RSG Clique BRAND NEW WEBSITE: www.YouGoGolf.com My RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html Voiceovers/Narration/Production Services: www.randybrownproductions.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why should something meaningless like an embroidery on a caddies’ cap be the source of any hard feelings anyway ? Tiger can dish it out with all his moon-walking and fist-pumping, but he can’t take it in return. Ken We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
Vijay is rumored to have told the press that he’d fire his caddy, if TT did it this time.
I am one of Tigers biggest fans and have seen almost all of his television appearances, how did I miss the moon-walking ? Can you imagine what that would do to a green? Are you certain about this moon-walking, a la Michael Jackson ? Don
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why should something meaningless like an embroidery on a caddies’ cap be the source of any hard feelings anyway ? Tiger can dish it out with all his moon-walking and fist-pumping, but he can’t take it in return. Ken We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
Why should something meaningless like an embroidery on a caddies’ cap be the source of any hard feelings anyway ? Tiger can dish it out with all his moon-walking and fist-pumping, but he can’t take it in return. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
We get Tiger and Vijay paired together again the last round of the TOUR Championship. Do you think Vijay’s caddie will wear the same hat he wore the last day of the President’s Cup? LOL!!!! It will be interseting to see if there’s any left over bad blood between the two. Kenny Kenny Stultz RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough. Absolutely. He needs to be more Czech Republic.
THAT *is* brilliant. Nice catch. ___ o ’ | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – Troll Intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. Please see RSG Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) concerning trolls. http://home.globalfrontiers.com/rorider/
Jack Nicklaus did not go to Phil Rodgers for instructions until he was in his 50s. Before that his long game was so good that didn’t need much of a short game. Hank Bruce Woods said: .Throughout Jack’s pro competition, he engaged and used one of the finest instructors of his day, Phil Rogers.
How many cuts did Phil miss last year?
Phil missed 3 cuts last year and 2 in 2000. He usually doesn’t miss many cuts. But he’s already missed 2 in a row this year… Dan L. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
<snipped When he brings his "A game," there’s not a player in the world who can touch him. You will eventually see his "A game" this year, and we will have long since forgotten about this thread.
Woods started this hype about an "A" game. The fact is, when other players are at the top of their games, they are just as difficult to beat. Nicklaus also had 19!! second place finishes in major tournaments. If other players had not come up with "above their head" performances, Nicklaus couldhave easily had 30 major victories. For all of the great play that Norman brought to the golf course, he has few wins to show for it. The same exact fate could possibly be awaiting Woods. Play great, but someone else plays one shot better. There are some great, young players on the tour now who are going to have something to say about how many tournaments Woods wins–with or without his "A" game. And there are still plenty of over-30 golfers who have plenty of tournament wins coming their way. Woods is going to find it more difficult as he gets older, marries, has children, large financial portfolios to manage, etc…. All of these things will detract from his game and the up-and-comers will be the ones producing. Randy
David
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped When he brings his "A game," there’s not a player in the world who can touch him. You will eventually see his "A game" this year, and we will have long since forgotten about this thread. Woods started this hype about an "A" game. The fact is, when other players are at the top of their games, they are just as difficult to beat. Nicklaus also had 19!! second place finishes in major tournaments. If other players had not come up with "above their head" performances, Nicklaus couldhave easily had 30 major victories. For all of the great play that Norman brought to the golf course, he has few wins to show for it. The same exact fate could possibly be awaiting Woods. Play great, but someone else plays one shot better.
Nicklaus never separated himself from the field by 15 shots in a major. Neither has anyone else. Until someone else does, Woods’ A game is superior. There are some great, young players on the tour now who are going to have something to say about how many tournaments Woods wins–with or without his "A" game. And there are still plenty of over-30 golfers who have plenty of tournament wins coming their way. Woods is going to find it more difficult as he gets older, marries, has children, large financial portfolios to manage, etc…. All of these things will detract from his game and the up-and-comers will be the ones producing.
Nicklaus had to deal with all the things you mention, and at a much earlier age, but it didn’t seem to affect him that much. — You should sleep late, man. It’s just much easier on your constitution
Some people are spellers and others are golfers.I’m a golfer. Hank
Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough. Absolutely. He needs to be more Czech Republic.
How many cuts did Phil miss last year? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Look at Philly Mick. He wins 3-4 times a year, but when he’s off he goes home after Friday. Who Rules?
I don’t know, Rob. Do you? I’m not claiming a crystal ball. Only pointing out that he has his sights set on trying to get his game to peak around the majors. Gee, he only won one last year, which was the fourth of four in a row. An unsuccessful season because he only won one? Is that what you’re suggesting? I can think of a few players who would gladly trade for it. Will he win one this year? I have no idea, and neither do you. But do you wish to go on record now to predict that he won’t? — Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. Please see RSG Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) concerning trolls: http://home.globalfrontiers.com/rorider/ "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiger is playing about the way he did last year at this time. His only objective now is to win majors; these early season events seem little more than "warm ups" for him. Let’s not forget that at this time last year, the burning question was "what’s wrong with Tiger?" Then, he went home to Florida, worked on his game, and reeled off three wins in a row — at Bay Hill, Players Championship and The Masters. The only thing wrong with Tiger is that there isn’t another major ’til April to get his attention. So we can expect the performances we saw in last year’s US Open, British Open and US PGA, his previous three majors, or are we going to go back 4 majors ago, and ignore the more recent events? Rob — RSG-MS RSG Masters http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS.html email: Frostback2002atattdotnet Service is the rent we pay for being
I think what everyone is noticing is that we haven’t seen Tiger in a zone quite like we saw him in at the ‘00 US Open, ‘00 British Open, and like he was in when he was winning six straight tournaments over ‘99-’00. Still, winning three straight starts in ‘01 — Bay Hill, Players and The Masters — is pretty darn good. People forget that winning three consecutive starts is still very rare, and we’re not even a year removed from the last time he did it. We may never in our lifetimes see another incident of a player getting into a zone like Tiger was in at the ‘00 Opens. But then again, that’s what we said when he won the ‘97 Masters, and look what happened. When he brings his "A game," there’s not a player in the world who can touch him. You will eventually see his "A game" this year, and we will have long since forgotten about this thread. — Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. Please see RSG Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) concerning trolls: http://home.globalfrontiers.com/rorider/ "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.He plays less tournaments a year than Jack did and in spite of getting more instruction than any other player, has too many periods of average play. He is a great player but I think he got too much too soon. I thought Slammin’ Sammy was the man to beat, with 81 wins? Tiger will win more tournaments. No doubt about that in my mind. But he’s just not a "world beater" anymore. Turns out, he’s human. :)
I don’t know, Rob. Do you? I’m not claiming a crystal ball. Only pointing out that he has his sights set on trying to get his game to peak around the majors. Gee, he only won one last year, which was the fourth of four in a row. An unsuccessful season because he only won one? Is that what you’re suggesting? I can think of a few players who would gladly trade for it. Will he win one this year? I have no idea, and neither do you. But do you wish to go on record now to predict that he won’t? —
I just think all these absurd expectations of Woods are excessive. I don’t care if he wins or not. I don’t expect him to win anything, nor anyone else. They will play the event, someone will win, and without a doubt, most of the time it will not be Tiger Woods. Rob — RSG-MS RSG Masters http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS.html email: Frostback2002atattdotnet Service is the rent we pay for being
The only thing wrong with Tiger is that there isn’t another major ’til April to get his attention.
Such depth of reasoning. The fact is that Woods has only won once on tour since last May because of his new found ability to make a mess of things when the putter is in his hands.
Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.
Absolutely. He needs to be more Czech Republic.
count Jack’s Majors including the 3 Amateur titles = 21 count Tiger’s including the 3 Amateur titles = 9 He’s about halfway there.
Nitpick – Jack won two Amateurs. Despite Jack’s feelings on the matter, I think only professional majors should count post-1950. So Tiger’s a third of the way there. If anybody says Tiger is washed up because he hasn’t won in 6 months, they are just plain stupid, and certainly have no concept of the game of golf.
Agreed. The fact that after 5+ years on tour Tiger is still matching Nicklaus’ accomplishments at the same age is remarkable. And Nicklaus had some dry spells as well, once going three years (!) without a major (1967 US Open — 1970 British Open). Imagine the stories of "Tiger the has-been" if he goes three years without winning a major. — You should sleep late, man. It’s just much easier on your constitution
But will he ever win the Peach Jacket? I kinda doubt it. Who Rules?
If Jack had won The Coveted Peach Jacket, you can be sure that Tiger would have it in his sights. But alas, the tournament was not around when Jack was chalking up major championships. His loss. You can rest assured that somewhere out there is a young fella with Annika1980’s golfing accomplishments tacked to his bedroom wall, and he’s dreaming of the time when one day, he can exceed Annika1980’s impressive list of win. Randy
Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.He plays less tournaments a year than Jack did
Plays less. Wins more. Go figure. and in spite of getting more instruction than any other player, has too many periods of average play.
Only difference is that Tiger can play average or even terrible like he did this week and still finish 5th. That’s what separates Tiger from all the other good players of today. Look at Philly Mick. He wins 3-4 times a year, but when he’s off he goes home after Friday. Only Tiger will decide if he surpasses Jack’s records (the few he has left are records of longevity). There is nothing to show that Tiger is any less hungry than he was when he took the tour by storm. He has been on Tour for 5 1/2 years and he’s won 30 times and 6 Majors. At that rate, he’ll surpass all of Jack’s (and everyone else’s) records before he’s 40. But will he ever win the Peach Jacket? I kinda doubt it. Who Rules?
People said the same shit this time last year. Then Tiger won at Bay Hill (stronger field than the Masters), the Players (stronger field than the Masters), and the Masters. Then won later in the year a couple of times. count Jack’s Majors including the 3 Amateur titles = 21 count Tiger’s including the 3 Amateur titles = 9 He’s about halfway there. If anybody says Tiger is washed up because he hasn’t won in 6 months, they are just plain stupid, and certainly have no concept of the game of golf. For Tiger to win more than anybody in his PGA career and play in less tournaments is further indication of how good he really is. tim (a Tiger fan, a Jack fan, a golf fan) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.He plays less tournaments a year than Jack did and in spite of getting more instruction than any other player, has too many periods of average play. He is a great player but I think he got too much too soon. H ank
Tiger is playing about the way he did last year at this time. His only objective now is to win majors; these early season events seem little more than "warm ups" for him. Let’s not forget that at this time last year, the burning question was "what’s wrong with Tiger?" Then, he went home to Florida, worked on his game, and reeled off three wins in a row — at Bay Hill, Players Championship and The Masters. The only thing wrong with Tiger is that there isn’t another major ’til April to get his attention.
So we can expect the performances we saw in last year’s US Open, British Open and US PGA, his previous three majors, or are we going to go back 4 majors ago, and ignore the more recent events? Rob — RSG-MS RSG Masters http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS.html email: Frostback2002atattdotnet Service is the rent we pay for being
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.He plays less tournaments a year than Jack did and in spite of getting more instruction than any other player, has too many periods of average play. He is a great player but I think he got too much too soon. Then again, everyone has peaks and valleys. He’s looking pretty ordinary lately, but he looks absolutely brilliant at other times. There is just no way of knowing his final totals until he is there. Maybe he will surpass Nicklaus; maybe not. No one knows. Bruce How can you say that Bruce? Hank says that he never will.
Oh, yeah! Right. Sorry. My bad. Bruce http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb http://go.to/bruce_newman
There are a couple of reasons why Tiger might not break Jack’s records: injuries and the ever increasing level of competition on the tour. "Hunger" has little to do with it. Both Jack & Tiger were financially secure before age 30 [though Jack did lose a bundle in the club manufacturing business once]. Throughout Jack’s pro competition, he engaged and used one of the finest instructors of his day, Phil Rogers. As for the rest of the drivel…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.He plays less tournaments a year than Jack did and in spite of getting more instruction than any other player, has too many periods of average play. He is a great player but I think he got too much too soon.
Tiger is playing about the way he did last year at this time. His only objective now is to win majors; these early season events seem little more than "warm ups" for him. Let’s not forget that at this time last year, the burning question was "what’s wrong with Tiger?" Then, he went home to Florida, worked on his game, and reeled off three wins in a row — at Bay Hill, Players Championship and The Masters. The only thing wrong with Tiger is that there isn’t another major ’til April to get his attention. — Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. Please see RSG Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) concerning trolls: http://home.globalfrontiers.com/rorider/ "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.He plays less tournaments a year than Jack did and in spite of getting more instruction than any other player, has too many periods of average play. He is a great player but I think he got too much too soon. H ank
Tiger is playing about the way he did last year at this time. His only objective now is to win majors; these early season events seem little more than "warm ups" for him. Let’s not forget that at this time last year, the burning question was "what’s wrong with Tiger?" Then, he went home to Florida, worked on his game, and reeled off three wins in a row — at Bay Hill, Players Championship and The Masters. The only thing wrong with Tiger is that there isn’t another major ’til April to get his attention.
Yeah, he’s got the LA Lakers syndrome. The Lakers are dropping games like crazy right now, because they simply don’t care about mid-season games. In the playoffs, though, they will kick ass. Such is the folly of a 16-team playoff system in the NBA, but I digress…
Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.He plays less tournaments a year than Jack did and in spite of getting more instruction than any other player, has too many periods of average play. He is a great player but I think he got too much too soon.
I thought Slammin’ Sammy was the man to beat, with 81 wins? Tiger will win more tournaments. No doubt about that in my mind. But he’s just not a "world beater" anymore. Turns out, he’s human. :)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.He plays less tournaments a year than Jack did and in spite of getting more instruction than any other player, has too many periods of average play. He is a great player but I think he got too much too soon. Then again, everyone has peaks and valleys. He’s looking pretty ordinary lately, but he looks absolutely brilliant at other times. There is just no way of knowing his final totals until he is there. Maybe he will surpass Nicklaus; maybe not. No one knows. Bruce
How can you say that Bruce? Hank says that he never will. ___ o ’ | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – Troll Intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. Please see RSG Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) concerning trolls. http://home.globalfrontiers.com/rorider/
Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.He plays less tournaments a year than Jack did and in spite of getting more instruction than any other player, has too many periods of average play. He is a great player but I think he got too much too soon. H ank
Tiger will never acheve Nicklaus’s records in my opinion.He is not hungary enough.He plays less tournaments a year than Jack did and in spite of getting more instruction than any other player, has too many periods of average play. He is a great player but I think he got too much too soon.
Then again, everyone has peaks and valleys. He’s looking pretty ordinary lately, but he looks absolutely brilliant at other times. There is just no way of knowing his final totals until he is there. Maybe he will surpass Nicklaus; maybe not. No one knows. Bruce http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb http://go.to/bruce_newman
I know this has been covered, but I have to say it. Sunday Venturi said "I think it’s possible for Mark O’Meara or J. L. Lewis to birdie one of the last two holes" No shit, Kenny. They are professional golfers, and the last hole is a par five. I am so glad this fucker is leaving CBS. I generally respect the history of the game and the legends who make up the history, but when Venturi is allowed to just ramble about the same crap every week, my respect and patience runs thin. My broadcaster opinions: top of the list for me: Gary McCord, probably has the best perspective of them all on this silly game of golf Mike Tirico, has to be good to work with Strange. Grant Boone, funny in a subtle kind of way Mark Lye, brutally honest but knows hie stuff Johnny Miller, sometimes annoying but brutally honest and had the game to know what he’s talking about. Ferherty, just plain funny Rankin, good insight from the fairway Gary Koch, very professional and straight forward, good voice. Bottom of the list: Venturi, lost his mind a long time ago Strange, just a jackass. Jim Nance, always kissing Venturi’s ass Bobby Clampet, always kissing somebody’s ass. Steve Melnyk, easy…easy. Side note: I really don’t think Lanny Wadkins is all that great. He obviously can play, but as an announcer is not a standout. just my thoughts tim
My broadcaster opinions: top of the list for me: [snip] Grant Boone, funny in a subtle kind of way
One of my best friends on the planet. Pat’s nephew. You think he’s funny on the air, you should play a round of golf with him sometime. I’ve had to learn how to swing the golf club while laughing hysterically, which is not easy to do. When he and I are playing a round of golf together, pity the other two players in the foursome, ’cause we’re doing non-stop play-by-play (and not exactly the style you’d ever hear on the air). He is an absolute riot; one of the funniest people I’ve ever met in my life. And a wonderful human being. Randy
Grant Boone, funny in a subtle kind of way One of my best friends on the planet.
Name dropper. :)
I know this has been covered, but I have to say it. Sunday Venturi said "I think it’s possible for Mark O’Meara or J. L. Lewis to birdie one of the last two holes" No shit, Kenny. They are professional golfers, and the last hole is a par five.
You might wanna have a senility check yourself cause what he said was that he thought one of them could possibly birdie BOTH the last two holes. Lewis has a chance to prove him right. I did kinda laugh when he said back on the 14th hole or so that if JMO makes his putt he could win the tournament. No shit. He was only 2 shots behind the faltering J-Lo with more more tough holes to play.
I don’t know whether it was deliberate, accidental, or just a vivid golf-deprived imagination yesterday, but when I heard Venturi et al start talking about various players choices approaching 18 I had an immediate flash back to the climactic scene of Tin cup — "There’s no way he can get there out of that bunker, he can lay up and still get an eagle by chiping in. Yes, just lay up and get your 5 and get to the playoff, no need to risk worse than that." Very funny. I really expected Daly to spash one and drop another ball in the bunker. —
How can you expect them to be entertaining, and informative? The only thing they know is golf!
I think I’ll miss Venturi in some weird sort of way. I agree about Lanny. Really don’t think he’s that good, so far. Also about Strange… Wayne "He only won the US Open before you were born…" -Cheech Marin
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this has been covered, but I have to say it. Sunday Venturi said "I think it’s possible for Mark O’Meara or J. L. Lewis to birdie one of the last two holes" No shit, Kenny. They are professional golfers, and the last hole is a par five. I am so glad this fucker is leaving CBS. I generally respect the history of the game and the legends who make up the history, but when Venturi is allowed to just ramble about the same crap every week, my respect and patience runs thin. My broadcaster opinions: top of the list for me: Gary McCord, probably has the best perspective of them all on this silly game of golf Mike Tirico, has to be good to work with Strange. Grant Boone, funny in a subtle kind of way Mark Lye, brutally honest but knows hie stuff Johnny Miller, sometimes annoying but brutally honest and had the game to know what he’s talking about. Ferherty, just plain funny Rankin, good insight from the fairway Gary Koch, very professional and straight forward, good voice. Bottom of the list: Venturi, lost his mind a long time ago Strange, just a jackass. Jim Nance, always kissing Venturi’s ass Bobby Clampet, always kissing somebody’s ass. Steve Melnyk, easy…easy. Side note: I really don’t think Lanny Wadkins is all that great. He obviously can play, but as an announcer is not a standout. just my thoughts tim
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I know this has been covered, but I have to say it. (snip) I am so glad this fucker is leaving CBS. I generally respect the history of the game and the legends who make up the history, but when Venturi is allowed to just ramble about the same crap every week, my respect and patience runs thin. (snip) tim
I happen to enjoy Ken Venturi’s ramblings and his pairing with Jim Nance my $0.02 — Dave Jones RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/jonesd.htm
How can you spell Kill File? "Miss Anne Thrope" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How can you expect them to be entertaining, and informative? The only thing they know is golf!
Well than you must be a simpleton. Miss Anne is a delightful and perceptive young lady. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How can you spell Kill File? "Miss Anne Thrope" How can you expect them to be entertaining, and informative? The only thing they know is golf!
You might wanna have a senility check yourself cause what he said was that he thought one of them could possibly birdie BOTH the last two holes.
You’re right. Speaking of senility, did anyone catch that Jim McKay horror show at the Olympics opening ceremony? It was so bad I started wondering if ABC loaned McKay out in an effort to drive NBC’s ratings down. He makes Venturi sound positively youthful! – cja
I had the very same thought come to mind as Big John was standing there waiting for the green to clear. Only one missing from the picture was Cheech Marin! Steve "Any mortal can hit from the fairway. It takes a real man to hit from the woods." Wheed Whakker – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know whether it was deliberate, accidental, or just a vivid golf-deprived imagination yesterday, but when I heard Venturi et al start talking about various players choices approaching 18 I had an immediate flash back to the climactic scene of Tin cup — "There’s no way he can get there out of that bunker, he can lay up and still get an eagle by chiping in. Yes, just lay up and get your 5 and get to the playoff, no need to risk worse than that." Very funny. I really expected Daly to spash one and drop another ball in the bunker.
Speaking of senility, did anyone catch that Jim McKay horror show at the Olympics opening ceremony? It was so bad I started wondering if ABC loaned McKay out in an effort to drive NBC’s ratings down. He makes Venturi sound positively youthful!
I didn’t notice. While I delight in youth – it is with my grand children. With TV announcers, I don’t see the attraction.
I think I’ll miss Venturi in some weird sort of way.
I have long thought that Kenny was past his sell by date. However, yesterday I found myself thinking I’m going to miss the old buggar. He seemed pretty relaxed and I found myself enjoying the familiarity of his old chestnuts. Lanny Wadkins does not seem to be overly humorous, and the game may be a bit different than when he and Strange were in their prime. B. J. Wilkinson
I had the very same thought come to mind as Big John was standing there waiting for the green to clear. Only one missing from the picture was Cheech Marin! Steve
He was in the van burning a fatty…oh wait, wrong movie. Nevermind. — ChiliDipper -gt RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/toyg.htm
McCord is the man. You should look into Ken Venturi’s brush with the law a couple of months ago when he was arrested for DWI. I heard about it yesterday from a friend while watching the Buick. Heard that he got a little testy with one of the arresting officiers.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this has been covered, but I have to say it. Sunday Venturi said "I think it’s possible for Mark O’Meara or J. L. Lewis to birdie one of the last two holes" No shit, Kenny. They are professional golfers, and the last hole is a par five. I am so glad this fucker is leaving CBS. I generally respect the history of the game and the legends who make up the history, but when Venturi is allowed to just ramble about the same crap every week, my respect and patience runs thin. My broadcaster opinions: top of the list for me: Gary McCord, probably has the best perspective of them all on this silly game of golf Mike Tirico, has to be good to work with Strange. Grant Boone, funny in a subtle kind of way Mark Lye, brutally honest but knows hie stuff Johnny Miller, sometimes annoying but brutally honest and had the game to know what he’s talking about. Ferherty, just plain funny Rankin, good insight from the fairway Gary Koch, very professional and straight forward, good voice. Bottom of the list: Venturi, lost his mind a long time ago Strange, just a jackass. Jim Nance, always kissing Venturi’s ass Bobby Clampet, always kissing somebody’s ass. Steve Melnyk, easy…easy. Side note: I really don’t think Lanny Wadkins is all that great. He obviously can play, but as an announcer is not a standout. just my thoughts tim
Why the profanity? We would have gotten the gist just as well without. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How can you expect them to be entertaining, and informative? The only thing they know is golf!
So what are we suppose to do with all the old veterans? They are paid way too much money, so they never consider
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of senility, did anyone catch that Jim McKay horror show at the Olympics opening ceremony? It was so bad I started wondering if ABC loaned McKay out in an effort to drive NBC’s ratings down. He makes Venturi sound positively youthful! I didn’t notice. While I delight in youth – it is with my grand children. With TV announcers, I don’t see the attraction.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this has been covered, but I have to say it. Sunday Venturi said "I think it’s possible for Mark O’Meara or J. L. Lewis to birdie one of the last two holes" No shit, Kenny. They are professional golfers, and the last hole is a par five. I am so glad this fucker is leaving CBS. I generally respect the history of the game and the legends who make up the history, but when Venturi is allowed to just ramble about the same crap every week, my respect and patience runs thin. My broadcaster opinions: top of the list for me: Gary McCord, probably has the best perspective of them all on this silly game of golf Mike Tirico, has to be good to work with Strange. Grant Boone, funny in a subtle kind of way Mark Lye, brutally honest but knows hie stuff Johnny Miller, sometimes annoying but brutally honest and had the game to know what he’s talking about. Ferherty, just plain funny Rankin, good insight from the fairway Gary Koch, very professional and straight forward, good voice. Bottom of the list: Venturi, lost his mind a long time ago Strange, just a jackass. Jim Nance, always kissing Venturi’s ass Bobby Clampet, always kissing somebody’s ass. Steve Melnyk, easy…easy. Side note: I really don’t think Lanny Wadkins is all that great. He obviously can play, but as an announcer is not a standout. just my thoughts tim
I have no opinion of Venturi, but I will say in his defense that he did NOT say that O’Meara and Lewis had a chance to birdie one of the last two holes. He said that there is a chance that one of them could birdie BOTH holes, which I think was an appropriate comment at the time. /LesC
The old John Daly, yes. The new John Daly, no. There was no way he was going to do anything of that sort yesterday. Right now, all his is focused on is winning. If his current attitude and winnings keep up, then he will certainly be in the Masters. I am very proud of my fellow Arkansan and Razorback John Daly. The leaps and bounds he has taken this year and last year are top notch in my book. To start ranked in the 500s or so in World Rankings to start off the year 2001 in and to finish the year 2001 ranked 51st is truly an outstanding feat for John. Now being ranked around 46th or so, he has a realistic shot at playing at Augusta this April. Good Luck Big John, give ‘em Hell! Bunky
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know whether it was deliberate, accidental, or just a vivid golf-deprived imagination yesterday, but when I heard Venturi et al start talking about various players choices approaching 18 I had an immediate flash back to the climactic scene of Tin cup — "There’s no way he can get there out of that bunker, he can lay up and still get an eagle by chiping in. Yes, just lay up and get your 5 and get to the playoff, no need to risk worse than that." Very funny. I really expected Daly to spash one and drop another ball in the bunker. —
Speaking of senility, did anyone catch that Jim McKay horror show at the Olympics opening ceremony? It was so bad I started wondering if ABC loaned McKay out in an effort to drive NBC’s ratings down. He makes Venturi sound positively youthful! I didn’t notice. While I delight in youth – it is with my grand children. With TV announcers, I don’t see the attraction. So what are we suppose to do with all the old veterans? They are paid way too much money, so they never consider
McKay has worked the Olympics for 3 different networks. He wasn’t under contract – NBC had to go out and get him. Apparently they thought he offered them a good value for their money.
JD was asked about that shot and said he was aiming for the trap he hit nto - figuring that it was an easier eagle chance than trying to go for the green and, to guard against the pond, go long [like Lewis did]. He did almost make the bunker shot. BTW, the wait for the green to clear was more for Sabbatini who went for it and was away per JD’s ball and hit first. The unasked question was why he got out the 2 iron instead of the driver on the par 4 16?th. A SW is easier to hit near for the birdie putt than the 8 iron JD did end up using. His 2 iron did go 275 but that gave up 45-50 yards on that hole. He did make a par but he really needed a birdie there. A lot of great players had a chance to win Sunday but only Olazabel performed almost flawlessly; I’d guess he’ll again be among the favorites at August this year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had the very same thought come to mind as Big John was standing there waiting for the green to clear. Only one missing from the picture was Cheech Marin!
McKay has worked the Olympics for 3 different networks. He wasn’t under contract – NBC had to go out and get him. Apparently they thought he offered them a good value for their money.
Wow, and look what they got! McKay is suckin’ it up big time. First night he was on I was sure that he had a stroke recently. If so, I’m truly sorry … If not, then he really needs to retire. Bob
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The old John Daly, yes. The new John Daly, no. There was no way he was going to do anything of that sort yesterday. Right now, all his is focused on is winning. If his current attitude and winnings keep up, then he will certainly be in the Masters. I am very proud of my fellow Arkansan and Razorback John Daly. The leaps and bounds he has taken this year and last year are top notch in my book. To start ranked in the 500s or so in World Rankings to start off the year 2001 in and to finish the year 2001 ranked 51st is truly an outstanding feat for John. Now being ranked around 46th or so, he has a realistic shot at playing at Augusta this April. Good Luck Big John, give ‘em Hell! Bunky I don’t know whether it was deliberate, accidental, or just a vivid golf-deprived imagination yesterday, but when I heard Venturi et al start talking about various players choices approaching 18 I had an immediate flash back to the climactic scene of Tin cup — "There’s no way he can get there out of that bunker, he can lay up and still get an eagle by chiping in. Yes, just lay up and get your 5 and get to the playoff, no need to risk worse than that." Very funny. I really expected Daly to spash one and drop another ball in the bunker. —
He has made it up to 40th now with the results from yesterday. Looks like he should be able to make it with ease. — Don Ward Caldera 3.1.1 beta