Question:
Jeff, I agree with you regarding top spin. The ball will crash quickly. I also agree with you regarding backspin/lift. However, given his stated swing speed of ~90 mph and a 9 deg loft head, the only way he can get the height needed is to ensure that he attacks the ball at about +10 deg which really isn’t very much or use a driver with essentially the loft of a three wood, somewhere between 12 and 16 degrees.
Sure. It’s interesting to me that in the "old days", I believe standard drivers had 12 degrees loft, and a 16 degree 3 would be strong! But I think a strong 3 wood (by today’s standards – 14-15 degrees) would give him more distance than the driver, now that you mention it! There is a good modeling program to be found at this URL. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/maxs/
Looks interesting – I bookmarked it and will check it out later….
Response:
Jeff, I agree with you regarding top spin. The ball will crash quickly. I also agree with you regarding backspin/lift. However, given his stated swing speed of ~90 mph and a 9 deg loft head, the only way he can get the height needed is to ensure that he attacks the ball at about +10 deg which really isn’t very much or use a driver with essentially the loft of a three wood, somewhere between 12 and 16 degrees. The attack angle is a complex function of shaft loading, kick point, swing characteristics, and ball position. If you null all the variables except ball position and use a flat swing, just moving the ball slightly forward of the bottom of the swing will result in a positive attack angle. There is a good modeling program to be found at this URL. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/maxs/ I have been using this for sometime and find that it is a perfect predictor of my performance based on my clubs. swing speed etc. Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A 12 deg launch angle should give you a maximum height of ~25 yds. Ball carry of ~210 yds. Don’t confuse launch angle and attack angle. The former is the angle that the ball leaves the tee and the later is the that the club approaches the ball. Regardless of what you might have heard, an attack angle of 0 (flat) or very close to it is best. You do *not* want to hit your drives with top spin. That’s a myth. Between gravity and the effect of significant top spin, you would not believe how fast your ball would crash into the ground. A slight upswing attack angle will still not give you top spin, but a slight amount of backspin, because of the relative effect of the club face angle. This slight amount of backspin gives your ball lift (similar but not the same as an airplane wing lift.) Lift gives your ball hang time, and hang time = distance. It’s true that a hook will have less backspin than a fade and therefore will run more.
Response:
A 12 deg launch angle should give you a maximum height of ~25 yds. Ball carry of ~210 yds. Don’t confuse launch angle and attack angle. The former is the angle that the ball leaves the tee and the later is the that the club approaches the
ball. Regardless of what you might have heard, an attack angle of 0 (flat) or very close to it is best. You do *not* want to hit your drives with top spin. That’s a myth. Between gravity and the effect of significant top spin, you would not believe how fast your ball would crash into the ground. A slight upswing attack angle will still not give you top spin, but a slight amount of backspin, because of the relative effect of the club face angle. This slight amount of backspin gives your ball lift (similar but not the same as an airplane wing lift.) Lift gives your ball hang time, and hang time = distance. It’s true that a hook will have less backspin than a fade and therefore will run more.
Response:
George… Have you played the Titleist DT Distance or HP Distance? RJ … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George… What are your favorite "low spin" balls? RJ I DO NOT LIKE balata at all, or any ball that "gives" and which I feel is mushy. Just a reaction that I’ve had all my life. I like the solid SMACK of the HARD ones, though not the glass covers. I use the soft cover variety of Top Flite — the XL 2000 (Trevino style). I’m going to also try an "Executive" I got from a pro to try out… One reason besides liking the hard smack sound the best is that I also hit the ball very high and it just falls to the green without a lot of roll; and I do not like "backup" spin either. Mushy feeling balls cause me to flinch… George
Response:
A 12 deg launch angle should give you a maximum height of ~25 yds. Ball carry of ~210 yds. Don’t confuse launch angle and attack angle. The former is the angle that the ball leaves the tee and the later is the that the club approaches the ball. joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmmm that’s pretty good information, YKW. You’re not such a bad apple! So what altitude would I reach with 12 degrees launch angle and 90 mph swingspeed? 30 feet? 40? The optimum launch angle is about 12 to 15 degrees with minimum spin. But the driver loft is not the whole story: ball position, center of gravity of the clubhead, many factors. For most people a 13 degree club will give them the best overall distance, and this is not a negative reflection on their ability: it is truly the optimum club if you use the lowest spin ball and usual ball position opposite left instep. Maybe with some clubs, a 10.5 Degree loft will work better with the ball forward enough. To determine your launch angle, set an old shaft in the ground about 12 feet in front of your teeing area so that three feet of it is above ground and the butt end is straight up in the air – three feet high. Your optimum trajectory will be even with the top of the shaft. So if someone watches your drives, they can tell you if your drives are above or below that optimum angle, and you can experiment with different clubs to find the one that DOES usually send your drives off at that height. Part of the high rise of many pro golfers is because they use high spin balls which have a higher flight pattern from a lower initial trajectory, but I do not like spin and I consider it my enemy, so I use low spin balls. See if this helps you to find your best. Good luck. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com Pendulum Press
Response:
I wasn’t actually looking for swing advice, just wondering what the optimum height for driver trajectory is. But GSAP is always a good idea.
I think you’d find that even the 50 foot number you mentioned for the pros is off. Those guys hit towering drives. I’m just guessing but it seems it must be more than 50 feet. You are hurting yourself with your bal height. More height = more distance in your case!
Response:
This is an interesting problem. If the information supplied is correct, 20 feet high, 190 carry "lot of of roll", then he has something like a 102 -103 mph swing speed but has a launch angle of around 3 deg. He states that he hits it flat so this is consistent. The problem then is not swing speed. With his speed he should be able to get ~ roughly 240 -250 carry, but it requires an attack angle of +10 deg. That will result in a launch angle of around 19*. It sounds like your suggestions regarding ball position and or a combination of things that result in an effective negative attack angle of about 6 * is the problem. Essentially he is hitting down on the ball. Just a quick thought, check posture. It may not be upright enough. Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hit my driver very low…… ball never gets above 20 feet altitude. (i’m using a 10 degree driver) I don’t get much carry but I get lots of roll. My ball rolls and rolls forever (hehe) Typical drive for me is 190 yards carry and 40 yards (minimum) of roll. ANYWAYS……. um… er… oh yeah….. I know I hit the ball too low, most big hitters I’ve seen hit much much higher. Usually at least 50 feet in altitude with their driver. Should my drives be higher for optimum distance? I hit the ball very flat (not on upswing) R0dent: Obviously, there’s something that’s gone haywire with your technique. It’s impossible to diagnose without knowing more, so your best advice (you already know what I’m gonna say) is to go see a pro. But short of that, here are a few things to check: 1. Light grip pressure. If you’re strangling the club, you won’t generate as much clubhead speed, which means, in many cases, the ball won’t go as high. 2. Hold that club in your fingers, not the palms of your hand. 2. Are you playing the ball off your left (forward) heel? If you’re playing it in the middle of your stance with your hands way ahead of the ball, you’re delofting the driver. Experiment a little with ball position. Off the left instep, then try it a little more forward and back, moving it at 1/2 inch increments. (Which reminds me, your hands should actually be above or slightly BEHIND the ball at address, not way forward like I see a lot of players.) 3. Could it be the shaft? Too stiff a shaft, or more importantly, too high a kick point on the shaft, will keep the trajectory down. Maybe you need a softer shaft with a lower kick point. 4. Stay behind the ball through impact. You can actually cause the face to deloft a bit by getting in front of the ball at impact (see parenthetical remark in #2). These are just a few random ideas. None may apply in your case, but they’re all good things to check. Randy
Response:
I mention "5 stories," "8 stories" as merely examples. I have no idea how high that is. It’s sort of a question of "how high is high?" I see in someone else’s post where they’ve quoted YKW that he cited optimum launch angle in degrees, which is probably more accurate than any abstract figure I might have given. Randy RSG-ATLANTA Information: http://www.YouGoGolf.com/rsg-atlanta.htm My RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html Voiceovers/Narration/Production Services: www.RandyBrownProductions.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is an interesting problem. If the information supplied is correct, 20 feet high, 190 carry "lot of of roll", then he has something like a 102 -103 mph swing speed but has a launch angle of around 3 deg. He states that he hits it flat so this is consistent. The problem then is not swing speed. With his speed he should be able to get ~ roughly 240 -250 carry, but it requires an attack angle of +10 deg. That will result in a launch angle of around 19*. It sounds like your suggestions regarding ball position and or a combination of things that result in an effective negative attack angle of about 6 * is the problem. Essentially he is hitting down on the ball. Just a quick thought, check posture. It may not be upright enough. Joe I hit my driver very low…… ball never gets above 20 feet altitude. (i’m using a 10 degree driver) I don’t get much carry but I get lots of roll. My ball rolls and rolls forever (hehe) Typical drive for me is 190 yards carry and 40 yards (minimum) of roll. ANYWAYS……. um… er… oh yeah….. I know I hit the ball too low, most big hitters I’ve seen hit much much higher. Usually at least 50 feet in altitude with their driver. Should my drives be higher for optimum distance? I hit the ball very flat (not on upswing) R0dent: Obviously, there’s something that’s gone haywire with your technique. It’s impossible to diagnose without knowing more, so your best advice (you already know what I’m gonna say) is to go see a pro. But short of that, here are a few things to check: 1. Light grip pressure. If you’re strangling the club, you won’t generate as much clubhead speed, which means, in many cases, the ball won’t go as high. 2. Hold that club in your fingers, not the palms of your hand. 2. Are you playing the ball off your left (forward) heel? If you’re playing it in the middle of your stance with your hands way ahead of the ball, you’re delofting the driver. Experiment a little with ball position. Off the left instep, then try it a little more forward and back, moving it at 1/2 inch increments. (Which reminds me, your hands should actually be above or slightly BEHIND the ball at address, not way forward like I see a lot of players.) 3. Could it be the shaft? Too stiff a shaft, or more importantly, too high a kick point on the shaft, will keep the trajectory down. Maybe you need a softer shaft with a lower kick point. 4. Stay behind the ball through impact. You can actually cause the face to deloft a bit by getting in front of the ball at impact (see parenthetical remark in #2). These are just a few random ideas. None may apply in your case, but they’re all good things to check. Randy
Response:
Sorry, R0dent, didn’t mean to digress on you like that. What’s the height supposed to look like? Depends. The more you can get it to look like Tiger’s ball, the better. :-) But seriously, I go for a lower ball flight, but that’s partly due to my flatter swing. A more upright swing will tend to produce a higher traj. The trick is to find the height that produces the best combination of carry and roll FOR YOU. It’s next to impossible to say how high that is. ("Four stories high" might be the optimum traj for one player, while 6-stories high might be right for another.) Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – R0dent: Obviously, there’s something that’s gone haywire with your technique. It’s impossible to diagnose without knowing more, so your best advice (you already know what I’m gonna say) is to go see a pro. LOL…. standard GSAP eh I wasn’t actually looking for swing advice, just wondering what the optimum height for driver trajectory is. But GSAP is always a good idea. BTW I am pretty happy with my driver…. I am getting good distance out of my slow rodent-like 90mph swingspeed (230 maybe 240 yards) Only time I wish I hit higher is when the fairways are very wet or on holes that are sharply uphill. 2. Are you playing the ball off your left (forward) heel? If you’re playing it in the middle of your stance with your hands way ahead of the ball, you’re delofting the driver. Experiment a little with ball position. Off the left instep, then try it a little more forward and back, moving it at 1/2 inch increments. (Which reminds me, your hands should actually be above or slightly BEHIND the ball at address, not way forward like I see a lot of players.) I am playing halfway between my left toe and dead middle of stance. I know that I should play off my left toe in order to hit the ball on the upswing, but if I do this I slice like a mother*****. Hehe 3. Could it be the shaft? Too stiff a shaft, or more importantly, too high a kick point on the shaft, will keep the trajectory down. Maybe you need a softer shaft with a lower kick point. Nope. I am playing with a pretty whippy R flex shaft. 4. Stay behind the ball through impact. You can actually cause the face to deloft a bit by getting in front of the ball at impact (see parenthetical remark in #2). Yes I am doing this…. however if I put the ball more forward in my stance, I slice like hell (as I said). These are just a few random ideas. None may apply in your case, but they’re all good things to check. Randy Ultimately if I really want to get good I suppose I will have to widen my swing arc so i can play the ball more forward without slicing. However this will probably take a lot of work (pretty much will have to build a brand new swing) Meanwhile, given my pathetic slow swingspeed I am getting good drives so I won’t be changing too much right now.
Response:
I hit my driver very low…… ball never gets above 20 feet altitude. (i’m using a 10 degree driver) I don’t get much carry but I get lots of roll. My ball rolls and rolls forever (hehe) Typical drive for me is 190 yards carry and 40 yards (minimum) of roll. ANYWAYS……. um… er… oh yeah….. I know I hit the ball too low, most big hitters I’ve seen hit much much higher. Usually at least 50 feet in altitude with their driver. Should my drives be higher for optimum distance? I hit the ball very flat (not on upswing)
The optimum launch angle is about 12 to 15 degrees with minimum spin. But the driver loft is not the whole story: ball position, center of gravity of the clubhead, many factors. For most people a 13 degree club will give them the best overall distance, and this is not a negative reflection on their ability: it is truly the optimum club if you use the lowest spin ball and usual ball position opposite left instep. Maybe with some clubs, a 10.5 Degree loft will work better with the ball forward enough. To determine your launch angle, set an old shaft in the ground about 12 feet in front of your teeing area so that three feet of it is above ground and the butt end is straight up in the air – three feet high. Your optimum trajectory will be even with the top of the shaft. So if someone watches your drives, they can tell you if your drives are above or below that optimum angle, and you can experiment with different clubs to find the one that DOES usually send your drives off at that height. Part of the high rise of many pro golfers is because they use high spin balls which have a higher flight pattern from a lower initial trajectory, but I do not like spin and I consider it my enemy, so I use low spin balls. See if this helps you to find your best. Good luck. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com Pendulum Press
Response:
George… What are your favorite "low spin" balls? RJ … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hit my driver very low…… ball never gets above 20 feet altitude. (i’m using a 10 degree driver) I don’t get much carry but I get lots of roll. My ball rolls and rolls forever (hehe) Typical drive for me is 190 yards carry and 40 yards (minimum) of roll. ANYWAYS……. um… er… oh yeah….. I know I hit the ball too low, most big hitters I’ve seen hit much much higher. Usually at least 50 feet in altitude with their driver. Should my drives be higher for optimum distance? I hit the ball very flat (not on upswing) The optimum launch angle is about 12 to 15 degrees with minimum spin. But the driver loft is not the whole story: ball position, center of gravity of the clubhead, many factors. For most people a 13 degree club will give them the best overall distance, and this is not a negative reflection on their ability: it is truly the optimum club if you use the lowest spin ball and usual ball position opposite left instep. Maybe with some clubs, a 10.5 Degree loft will work better with the ball forward enough. To determine your launch angle, set an old shaft in the ground about 12 feet in front of your teeing area so that three feet of it is above ground and the butt end is straight up in the air – three feet high. Your optimum trajectory will be even with the top of the shaft. So if someone watches your drives, they can tell you if your drives are above or below that optimum angle, and you can experiment with different clubs to find the one that DOES usually send your drives off at that height. Part of the high rise of many pro golfers is because they use high spin balls which have a higher flight pattern from a lower initial trajectory, but I do not like spin and I consider it my enemy, so I use low spin balls. See if this helps you to find your best. Good luck. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com Pendulum Press
Response:
George… What are your favorite "low spin" balls? RJ
I DO NOT LIKE balata at all, or any ball that "gives" and which I feel is mushy. Just a reaction that I’ve had all my life. I like the solid SMACK of the HARD ones, though not the glass covers. I use the soft cover variety of Top Flite — the XL 2000 (Trevino style). I’m going to also try an "Executive" I got from a pro to try out… One reason besides liking the hard smack sound the best is that I also hit the ball very high and it just falls to the green without a lot of roll; and I do not like "backup" spin either. Mushy feeling balls cause me to flinch… George
Response:
Ultimately if I really want to get good I suppose I will have to widen my swing arc so i can play the ball more forward without slicing. However this will probably take a lot of work (pretty much will have to build a brand new swing)
NO NOT AT ALL. USE A WEAKER GRIP, AND OPEN YOUR LEFT TOE. THE SLICE IS A SETUP SLICE – A GRIP SLICE, NOT A SWING SLICE. IT IS A GEOMETRIC RESULT – A REALITY OF THE SETUP AND NOT OF YOUR "SWING". UP TO A POINT YOU CAN MOVE THE BALL FORWARD. DEPENDS ON HOW FAR YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR FEET APART FROM EACH OTHER. Meanwhile, given my pathetic slow swingspeed I am getting good drives so I won’t be changing too much right now.
Try the change – experiment, but do not blame a good swing; the mechanics are not different with the advanced ball position; only the geometry of alignments and path, and they are subtle but real. Tiger does precisely this to get his longer drives and he strengthens his grip to do it! By his own words on The Golf Channel.. George
Response:
Hmmm that’s pretty good information, YKW. You’re not such a bad apple! So what altitude would I reach with 12 degrees launch angle and 90 mph swingspeed? 30 feet? 40?
Can’t answer that – I used to have a trajectory model that played out different things of that nature but when my HD crashed I lost it. But it is considerably higher than 20 feet off the ground: probably 50 feet or more… The first time you do use a stick for the measurement, as soon as you use a club that does get you that launch angle you’ll see yourself that it’s pretty high. Be aware that long bombers get VERY VERY HIGH LAUNCHES with their drivers – some a good 100 feet, and they do not sacrifice length with that height… George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The optimum launch angle is about 12 to 15 degrees with minimum spin. But the driver loft is not the whole story: ball position, center of gravity of the clubhead, many factors. For most people a 13 degree club will give them the best overall distance, and this is not a negative reflection on their ability: it is truly the optimum club if you use the lowest spin ball and usual ball position opposite left instep. Maybe with some clubs, a 10.5 Degree loft will work better with the ball forward enough. To determine your launch angle, set an old shaft in the ground about 12 feet in front of your teeing area so that three feet of it is above ground and the butt end is straight up in the air – three feet high. Your optimum trajectory will be even with the top of the shaft. So if someone watches your drives, they can tell you if your drives are above or below that optimum angle, and you can experiment with different clubs to find the one that DOES usually send your drives off at that height. Part of the high rise of many pro golfers is because they use high spin balls which have a higher flight pattern from a lower initial trajectory, but I do not like spin and I consider it my enemy, so I use low spin balls. See if this helps you to find your best. Good luck. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com Pendulum Press
Response:
TYPO – BRAINO — use a STRONGER grip. Lost my brames. Sorry. Obviously, stronger…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ultimately if I really want to get good I suppose I will have to widen my swing arc so i can play the ball more forward without slicing. However this will probably take a lot of work (pretty much will have to build a brand new swing) NO NOT AT ALL. USE A WEAKER GRIP, AND OPEN YOUR LEFT TOE. THE SLICE IS A SETUP SLICE – A GRIP SLICE, NOT A SWING SLICE. IT IS A GEOMETRIC RESULT – A REALITY OF THE SETUP AND NOT OF YOUR "SWING". UP TO A POINT YOU CAN MOVE THE BALL FORWARD. DEPENDS ON HOW FAR YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR FEET APART FROM EACH OTHER. Meanwhile, given my pathetic slow swingspeed I am getting good drives so I won’t be changing too much right now. Try the change – experiment, but do not blame a good swing; the mechanics are not different with the advanced ball position; only the geometry of alignments and path, and they are subtle but real. Tiger does precisely this to get his longer drives and he strengthens his grip to do it! By his own words on The Golf Channel.. George
Response:
I hit my driver very low…… ball never gets above 20 feet altitude. (i’m using a 10 degree driver) I don’t get much carry but I get lots of roll. My ball rolls and rolls forever (hehe) Typical drive for me is 190 yards carry and 40 yards (minimum) of roll. ANYWAYS……. um… er… oh yeah….. I know I hit the ball too low, most big hitters I’ve seen hit much much higher. Usually at least 50 feet in altitude with their driver. Should my drives be higher for optimum distance? I hit the ball very flat (not on upswing)
R0dent: Obviously, there’s something that’s gone haywire with your technique. It’s impossible to diagnose without knowing more, so your best advice (you already know what I’m gonna say) is to go see a pro. But short of that, here are a few things to check: 1. Light grip pressure. If you’re strangling the club, you won’t generate as much clubhead speed, which means, in many cases, the ball won’t go as high. 2. Hold that club in your fingers, not the palms of your hand. 2. Are you playing the ball off your left (forward) heel? If you’re playing it in the middle of your stance with your hands way ahead of the ball, you’re delofting the driver. Experiment a little with ball position. Off the left instep, then try it a little more forward and back, moving it at 1/2 inch increments. (Which reminds me, your hands should actually be above or slightly BEHIND the ball at address, not way forward like I see a lot of players.) 3. Could it be the shaft? Too stiff a shaft, or more importantly, too high a kick point on the shaft, will keep the trajectory down. Maybe you need a softer shaft with a lower kick point. 4. Stay behind the ball through impact. You can actually cause the face to deloft a bit by getting in front of the ball at impact (see parenthetical remark in #2). These are just a few random ideas. None may apply in your case, but they’re all good things to check. Randy