Court will rule against Martin

Question:

If I ever get rich (don’t hold your breath), I’m going to build a golf course. No riding carts. No cart paths. And RSGers play for free…

Bandon Dunes and now Pacfic Dunes in Oregon, USA is such a course- walk only….UNLESS handicapped then a cart is allowed. Still no cart paths found anywhere on the course. Its my dream to play there (and Old Head in Ireland – "the best Scotish course are said to be found in Ireland" – spoken like the true Mick that I am.)

Response:

<snip I hate golf carts and golf paths <snip Phil If I ever get rich (don’t hold your breath), I’m going to build a golf course. No riding carts. No cart paths. And RSGers play for free…

Finally after all the recent in-fighting, a post I can support 100%. Dave Diduck’s lawyer will be contacting you…. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip I hate golf carts and golf paths <snip Phil If I ever get rich (don’t hold your breath), I’m going to build a golf course. No riding carts. No cart paths. And RSGers play for free… — Joe Cartpath WebPage: http://home.midsouth.rr.com/joecartpath RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/reedj.htm

Bless you Joe. I hope you win the lottery. You do realize that quoting me out of context like that will get me flamed Again! Phil

Response:

David great point– But I am not really refering to Casey–I’m refering to guys who are healthy enough to walk–I think they’re body is better prepared to play a golf shot if they walk 18 holes. Sitting in a golf cart waiting for a green to clear drives me up a wall. The casey martin isuue is tough–he can’t walk —and in a few years he won’t be able to walk to the mailbox. Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys are crazy— They do not play those conditions on a regular basis. On a regular basis–the player has an advantage walking–staying loose, and walking to his ball. The ‘hurry – up and wait" while sitting in a golf cart ruins a player. June, July, Aug –OK–but the other 9 months a walker has an advantage over 18 holes. He’s better prepared with a body ready to play his shot. Brad Oh, well in that case give him a cart. After all, he’ll only be playing by a different set of rules during 3 of the 4 majors. Toss in an ERC too. One game, one set of rules. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)

Response:

Well, if you wanted to post about your preference regarding carts, you could I prefer to walk too but that isn’t relevant to the Martin vs. PGA case. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)

Response:

Sort -of-is an issue to the competition. Pga events are played at a 5-hour clip— If he’s riding–he’s sitting on his ass a lot waiting for his next shot. Tiger, Lehman, and Duval are walking to they’re balls keeping themselves warm and they’re muscles loose. Tiger and the others are better prepared in my opinion to play the next shot–and have the advantage over Casey. It’s just Casey has no other way to do it. Just my thoughts. Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David great point– But I am not really refering to Casey–I’m refering to guys who are healthy enough to walk–I think they’re body is better prepared to play a golf shot if they walk 18 holes. Sitting in a golf cart waiting for a green to clear drives me up a wall. The casey martin isuue is tough–he can’t walk —and in a few years he won’t be able to walk to the mailbox. Brad Well, if you wanted to post about your preference regarding carts, you could I prefer to walk too but that isn’t relevant to the Martin vs. PGA case. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)

Response:

<snip I hate golf carts and golf paths <snip Phil

If I ever get rich (don’t hold your breath), I’m going to build a golf course. No riding carts. No cart paths. And RSGers play for free… — Joe Cartpath WebPage: http://home.midsouth.rr.com/joecartpath RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/reedj.htm

Response:

Oh, well in that case give him a cart. After all, he’ll only be playing by a different set of rules during 3 of the 4 majors. Toss in an ERC too. One game, one set of rules. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel for him. I really do. Life is not fair, just ask anyone who’s born blind or born into a family of losers. God plays some ugly tricks on us sometimes, and it’s hard for us to know what his reasons are. That’s why we have faith. I don’t, however, think God’s reasons for doing the things he does is so we can punish those more fortunate simply because they *are* fortunate. I am reminded of a line from the first Superman movie where Christopher Reeves says, "is it wrong for a bird to fly?" I just think the essence of sport is that all competitors should be playing the same game, and all play is under the same set of rules and conditions of competition, equally applied to all competitors. If you would cite one sport in the history of mankind where one player gets to have one of the rules waived, I’ll reconsider my position. Until then, it seems like a hose job to me, and a classic case of a spoiled brat with a rich family who *can* hire expensive lawyers to try to change the rules. I think it stinks, and I believe that fifty years from now, history won’t be so kind to Casey for trying to adapt the rules for his own selfish purpose, leaving an otherwise FAIR set of rules (fair, meaning, applicable to all competitors, like every other rule in sport) in disarray for all who come after him. Randy

Pretty dramatic response. I would not even hazard a guess as to what will be in 50 years. What with the generations coming behind us and the way the world is going who can say? They may be playing with jetpacks I have no idea what god thinks. That knowledge would certainly destroy my tiny mind. I hate golf carts and golf paths. I walk and carry. Lots of my friends that I compete with ride. I feel that I have the advantage. Walking makes it easier to "stay" in the game IMO. That’s for me only. Others feel otherwise. Fine, there is room for all of us. Golf is about using the fewest stroke to play a round. The ability to walk has nothing to do with this. I say again the PGA should have the right to determine its own rules. An exemption of a Casey Martin hurts no one. Who can blame Martin for going for it? Why is it a"hose" job to try and do what he loves? There is no "right" answer. Just opinion. Phil

Response:

I was born with a relatively mild case of Spina Bifida and cannot play golf without using a cart, but I believe that–unless every other golfer is also allowed to use a cart–Casey Martin should not be able to in tournament play. John — John O’Brien "I can tell your future, just look what’s in your hand" -R. Hunter

Response:

You guys are crazy— They do not play those conditions on a regular basis. On a regular basis–the player has an advantage walking–staying loose, and walking to his ball. The ‘hurry – up and wait" while sitting in a golf cart ruins a player. June, July, Aug –OK–but the other 9 months a walker has an advantage over 18 holes. He’s better prepared with a body ready to play his shot. Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bruce– I do not believe walking causes fatigue. I believe walkers –especially if the walker is not carrying his bag–is more prepared to play his shot than a rider. Maybe it’s just me–but I stay warm and loose when I walk. Venturi was fatigued by extreme comditions—100 plus degrees, 36 holes, and high humidity. I do not walk in excess of 95 degrees because it is not healthy. And those are the conditions under which golf tournaments are played. Weather affects tournaments and extreme weather will affect the walkers more than the rider(s). Of course if all the participants are playing under a single set of rules then no one will be left wondering if the variability in the rules had an effect on the outcome. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)

Response:

Imagine the pain and fatigue that Casey must feel during and after a round of golf. Just the in and out of the cart, the walk to ball and back, lining up putts, and hitting off that hurting leg. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person. Phil

Imagine the difficulty that Scott Verplank has dealing with his diabetes under the stress of PGA Tour conditions. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)

Response:

Handicaps are for flighted amateur events. On the tour everyone should play by the same rules. If you cannot qualify under the same rules then that is life and NOBODY can make life fair. Sorry just MHO.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Supreme Court will hear the Casey Martin case this week. The same folks that even though two justices had family members working for GeoWBush and another angrily saying she can’t retire when it looked like Gore was going to win on election night, will try to hear the case on its merits, not on the fact that the PGA is more Republican than the Republican Party. Don’t get me wrong, I strongly feel each sport should and must make its own rules and guidelines. The court should and must – rule against Martin, BUT the PGA must then grant permission for Casey to play with a cart as a special exemption (exemptions and PGA golf go hand and hand). It was good to hear, last night, people like Lehman, Faxon as well as Casey’s two old teammates, Woods and Begay giving full support to Martin. Mike Weir also supported Casey but mentioned that fatigue from walking plays a part in the game. If you don’t carry your own clubs, then walking fatigue has no bearing on the game what so ever (im a card carrying walker myself). If you can’t walk a couple hundred yards, hit a ball; maybe you may be less the athlete then Martin is handicapped. Give me a break. He doesn’t want strokes to win, he isn’t trying to lower the basket, or retire batters on less strikes. Let the guy play – he hits as long as Woods or Daly. As a sports photographer I caught a glimpse of Martins right leg several years back – it’s as thick as a pencil – no lie. He will lose the leg soon. Martin is good for the game, good for everyone is this greedy world. The PGA needs the diversity and compassion.

Response:

That is another matter entirely, however. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

Well he can walk which gives him a legup on Casey, and modern medicine can help him be nearly normal. Complicated issue. Clearly the PGA should have the right to determine its own rules of engagement. How to deal with an issue like Casey’s is perplexing to say the least. Phil

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Imagine the pain and fatigue that Casey must feel during and after a round of golf. Just the in and out of the cart, the walk to ball and back, lining up putts, and hitting off that hurting leg. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person. Phil Imagine the difficulty that Scott Verplank has dealing with his diabetes under the stress of PGA Tour conditions. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)

Response:

I feel for him. I really do. Life is not fair, just ask anyone who’s born blind or born into a family of losers. God plays some ugly tricks on us sometimes, and it’s hard for us to know what his reasons are. That’s why we have faith. I don’t, however, think God’s reasons for doing the things he does is so we can punish those more fortunate simply because they *are* fortunate. I am reminded of a line from the first Superman movie where Christopher Reeves says, "is it wrong for a bird to fly?" I just think the essence of sport is that all competitors should be playing the same game, and all play is under the same set of rules and conditions of competition, equally applied to all competitors. If you would cite one sport in the history of mankind where one player gets to have one of the rules waived, I’ll reconsider my position. Until then, it seems like a hose job to me, and a classic case of a spoiled brat with a rich family who *can* hire expensive lawyers to try to change the rules. I think it stinks, and I believe that fifty years from now, history won’t be so kind to Casey for trying to adapt the rules for his own selfish purpose, leaving an otherwise FAIR set of rules (fair, meaning, applicable to all competitors, like every other rule in sport) in disarray for all who come after him. Randy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Venturi was fatigued by extreme comditions— 100 plus degrees, 36 holes, and high humidity. I do not walk in excess of 95 degrees because it is not healthy. Yes, and the TOUR plays in those conditions, all summer long. Should an able-bodied, well-conditioned athlete be able to handle it? Absolutely. But to suggest that it doesn’t have *some* affect over the course of a long day, especially when players are forced to play 36 holes in a day, is simply ridiculous. Especially when a course is very hilly. And remember, whenever there’s a 36-hole day, it’s because there was a rain-out, which quite often means the ground is sloppy and sloshy, which means walking through it the next day can be additionally fatiguing. Randy

Response:

Venturi was fatigued by extreme comditions— 100 plus degrees, 36 holes, and high humidity. I do not walk in excess of 95 degrees because it is not healthy.

Yes, and the TOUR plays in those conditions, all summer long. Should an able-bodied, well-conditioned athlete be able to handle it? Absolutely. But to suggest that it doesn’t have *some* affect over the course of a long day, especially when players are forced to play 36 holes in a day, is simply ridiculous. Especially when a course is very hilly. And remember, whenever there’s a 36-hole day, it’s because there was a rain-out, which quite often means the ground is sloppy and sloshy, which means walking through it the next day can be additionally fatiguing. Randy

Response:

Bruce– I do not believe walking causes fatigue. I believe walkers –especially if the walker is not carrying his bag–is more prepared to play his shot than a rider. Maybe it’s just me–but I stay warm and loose when I walk. Venturi was fatigued by extreme comditions—100 plus degrees, 36 holes, and high humidity. I do not walk in excess of 95 degrees because it is not healthy. Just my personal opinion ( at the golf store today I looked at the Hogan Apex’s and said–" These should be Newmans"–really! Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IYou say this as though it is an indisputable fact. Please don’t get on my back, because I am not trying to change your mind at all, but I agree completely with Mike Weir. In my experience, walking causes fatigue. I always carry my clubs, but have played _many_ tournaments using a caddie–not at the PGA Tour level though. As a rule, I am fresher at the beginning of a round than over the last few holes. Mind you, the _degree_ of fatigue isn’t normally huge but, depending on weather conditions, it can be quite significant. Example: ask Ken Venturi if walking caused him any fatigue during his US Open win at Congressional (1964?). I also believe that the significance of fatigue becomes greater the higher the level of play. Bruce RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

And those are the conditions under which golf tournaments are played. Weather affects tournaments and extreme weather will affect the walkers more than the rider(s). Of course if all the participants are playing under a single set of rules then no one will be left wondering if the variability in the rules had an effect on the outcome. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)

Response:

healthy. Don’t get me wrong; I play better walking, but that is another matter than fatigue. Extreme conditions in themselves don’t cause fatigue, but walking (or doing anything else) in extreme conditions does cause it fatigue. In Venturi’s case, for example, he wouldn’t have been as fatigued sitting in a chair as walking the course. The fatigue comes from the exercise in the heat, not just from the heat. For most "normal" people like you and me, I think the significance is so small that some consider it non-existant. At higher levels of play though, I think the significance increases. I can’t say this is true for everyone (although I think it is, at least in theory), but I know it is true for me because I have many experiences with it. Particularly at high temperature and humidity, my legs get weak and my swing tends to get loose late in a round. That is often the difference between winning and losing. Just my personal opinion ( at the golf store today I looked at the Hogan Apex’s and said–" These should be Newmans"–really!

*laughing* Bruce RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

The Supreme Court will hear the Casey Martin case this week. That makes perfect sense to me. The exemption idea is a win-win situation. PGA gets to make its own rules and Casey gets to play. Phil

Who gets bumped for Casey’s spot?

Response:

The Supreme Court will hear the Casey Martin case this week. The same folks that even though two justices had family members working for GeoWBush and another angrily saying she can

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