Player A is a PGA golf professional with a Handicap of 0 for the course played. Player B is an amateur with a Handicap of 15, for the course played. Player A is going to beat the crap out of player B 9 times out of 10. Why? Well USGA handicaps ( and presumably others) really represent your best efforts.
The key word in Darrell’s question is "Professional". There is, or could be, a big difference between a pro with a 0 handicap and an amateur with a 0 handicap. In fact, I’d say that is probably THE difference between a pro (at least a pro who plays in a lot of tournaments) and a very good amateur. Professional tournaments are set up for 3 or 4 rounds. You must play well in all rounds to do well. For example, a pro might shoot 72, 69, 73, 71 to get a handicap of 0 (depending on rating, etc). An amateur might shoot 70, 76, 70, 80 for the exact same handicap. There’s a HUGE difference between those 2 players. One almost always makes the cut, the other almost never does. The amateur could easily win the club championship however, based on only 2 good rounds at the right time. But that’s one of the major differences between professionals and club champions. Lee Trevino once said something to the effect of "if you can shoot par or better on your home course every time you play for an entire year, then you might consider turning professional." (This is your home course, that you should know like the back of your hand.) Now if Darrell had asked simply if a 0 handicapper is likely to beat a 15 handicapper, then it gets back to the style of those 2 players. Variance comes into play depending on whether a player is a "Steady Eddy" type or a "Wild Bill" type. There are very few "Wild Bill" (touring) professionals. Certain club pros might very well be the wild type, but they can’t make it in tournaments consistently that way.
Say two golfers play a round of golf three times a week, on the same course. They make a wager on the outcome (final score) of each round, medal play. Each player is allowed strokes according to their respective Handicap for the course played. (Further, let’s assume the Handicap Index for each player is up-to-date, accurate and more or less stable.) Player A is a PGA golf professional with a Handicap of 0 for the course played. Player B is an amateur with a Handicap of 15, for the course played.
Player A is going to beat the crap out of player B 9 times out of 10. Why? Well USGA handicaps ( and presumably others) really represent your best efforts. It’s computed as 95% of the difference between your score and par (well rating scaled with slope) for the best 10 out of 20 rounds. Now for a 15, the 95% factor means the real difference for the "best" rounds is 16, but because that players worst rounds are tossed out, the real average difference will probably be more like 18 or 19. Add to this the fact that "equitable stroke control" caps your score on every hole. Someone in this ability range usually has a hole or two a round where they go OB or otherwise blow the ESC limit, so maybe the real difference is more like 20. So, on average player B will shoot 5 over. for Player A, the 95% factor is irrelevant (95% of 0 is still 0), and they are much more consistent so the real difference is probably only 1 or 2. So, the pro has a 3-4 stroke advantage off the bat. If this variance parameter is true, between a Zero and a 15, .is this game and wager situation EVER going to be a good bet for Player B?
Match play will certainly be better than stroke play. Player B will be able to go a lot lower, since a 15 handicap will shoot a round in the 70’s (net low 60’s) more often than a zero will get into the low 60’s (real Pros that actually shoot these scores have handicaps of +3 or more). I wonder if some kind of handicapped stableford, where you get more points for low scores than you lose for big ones, would favor the duffer? — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )
But, what about the question of Variance? Would a pro, with a handicap of 0, exhibit the same "variance" in scores (over time) that an amateur (15 handicap) could (and usually does) experience?
Almost certainly not. The bad rounds for the scratch golfer would be 4 or 5 strokes above his handicap, whereas the bad rounds for the 15-handicapper would be be 10 or 15 over. There’s also the problem that the handicap has a 96% reduction built into it — so the average of the best 10 of the last 20 for the 15-handicapper is a 15.6 differential. So he’s giving away an additional 0.6 strokes because of that. If this variance parameter is true, between a Zero and a 15, .is this game and wager situation EVER going to be a good bet for Player B?
I don’t think so. If you give a percentile rank to a player’s performance, such that a 1 is the worst round they’d have in 100 rounds and a 100 is the best round they’d have in 100 rounds, then I think you’d find this: If both players shoot a "1" round, the scratch golfer wins by about 10 strokes. If both players shoot a "50" round, the scratch golfer wins by one stroke. If both players shoot a "90", they probably tie with rounds that are one or two strokes under their differential. If both players shoot a "100", the high handicapper wins with a -5 or -4, to the scratch golfers -4 or -3. In all, the high handicapper has about a 5-15% chance of winning, I would guess. Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)
But, what about the question of Variance? Would a pro, with a handicap of 0, exhibit the same "variance" in scores (over time) that an amateur (15 handicap) could (and usually does) experience? If this variance parameter is true, between a Zero and a 15, .is this game and wager situation EVER going to be a good bet for Player B?
The question of variance is a good one, but doesn’t really depend on the level of player. A 15 handicapper might be a "Steady Eddy", while a 0 handicapper might be a "Wild Bill". This is one thing that the handicap system doesn’t take into account very well.
Say two golfers play a round of golf three times a week, on the same course. They make a wager on the outcome (final score) of each round, medal play. Each player is allowed strokes according to their respective Handicap for the course played. (Further, let’s assume the Handicap Index for each player is up-to-date, accurate and more or less stable.) Player A is a PGA golf professional with a Handicap of 0 for the course played. Player B is an amateur with a Handicap of 15, for the course played. If it is true that each player could be expected to play to their respective handicap 20% of the time, then on the average, each player might play to their handicap in only one of every five rounds. Everything would seem to be "fair" and the wagers should, on the average (over time) come out fairly equal. But, what about the question of Variance? Would a pro, with a handicap of 0, exhibit the same "variance" in scores (over time) that an amateur (15 handicap) could (and usually does) experience? If this variance parameter is true, between a Zero and a 15, .is this game and wager situation EVER going to be a good bet for Player B?
What was up with the incredible overload of commercials during the last hour? There were two minutes of coverage, two minutes of commercials for a period of at least 40 minutes. One fairway shot, one putt, five commercials.
CBS BBS nananananananananananana…. Rob What was up with the incredible overload of commercials during the last hour? There were two minutes of coverage, two minutes of commercials for a period of at least 40 minutes. One fairway shot, one putt, five commercials.
– GOP (Golf Only Pledge…I will only initiate golf related threads) Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~frostback2002)
Comparable to the beginning of the Pebble Beach AT&T tournament last week. I think it was Sat when I counted 2 shots shown on TV in the first 20 minutes. — Bill Cochrane 416-284-8462
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What was up with the incredible overload of commercials during the last hour? There were two minutes of coverage, two minutes of commercials for a period of at least 40 minutes. One fairway shot, one putt, five commercials.
Where do you think the money comes from for the PGA Tour to donate to charity? Commercials, commercials, commercials. They even pay for PGA golf commericals. I know, you are thinking: "Why not just show me golf and I will make my own donations to charity." I have thought the same thing. Puttster
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What was up with the incredible overload of commercials during the last hour? There were two minutes of coverage, two minutes of commercials for a period of at least 40 minutes. One fairway shot, one putt, five commercials.
What was up with the incredible overload of commercials during the last hour? There were two minutes of coverage, two minutes of commercials for a period of at least 40 minutes. One fairway shot, one putt, five commercials.
There is no free lunch. If enough people were willing to pay for the coverage, someone would provide it and we could have commercial-free golf, tennis, or whatever. But very few are. Most people would rather have it for "free". We have all swallowed the Madison Avenue bait — hook, line, and sinker. — Spam sink email address, sorry
If I ever get rich (don’t hold your breath), I’m going to build a golf course. No riding carts. No cart paths. And RSGers play for free…
Bandon Dunes and now Pacfic Dunes in Oregon, USA is such a course- walk only….UNLESS handicapped then a cart is allowed. Still no cart paths found anywhere on the course. Its my dream to play there (and Old Head in Ireland – "the best Scotish course are said to be found in Ireland" – spoken like the true Mick that I am.)
<snip I hate golf carts and golf paths <snip Phil If I ever get rich (don’t hold your breath), I’m going to build a golf course. No riding carts. No cart paths. And RSGers play for free…
Finally after all the recent in-fighting, a post I can support 100%. Dave Diduck’s lawyer will be contacting you…. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip I hate golf carts and golf paths <snip Phil If I ever get rich (don’t hold your breath), I’m going to build a golf course. No riding carts. No cart paths. And RSGers play for free… — Joe Cartpath WebPage: http://home.midsouth.rr.com/joecartpath RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/reedj.htm
Bless you Joe. I hope you win the lottery. You do realize that quoting me out of context like that will get me flamed 
Again! Phil
David great point– But I am not really refering to Casey–I’m refering to guys who are healthy enough to walk–I think they’re body is better prepared to play a golf shot if they walk 18 holes. Sitting in a golf cart waiting for a green to clear drives me up a wall. The casey martin isuue is tough–he can’t walk —and in a few years he won’t be able to walk to the mailbox. Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys are crazy— They do not play those conditions on a regular basis. On a regular basis–the player has an advantage walking–staying loose, and walking to his ball. The ‘hurry – up and wait" while sitting in a golf cart ruins a player. June, July, Aug –OK–but the other 9 months a walker has an advantage over 18 holes. He’s better prepared with a body ready to play his shot. Brad Oh, well in that case give him a cart. After all, he’ll only be playing by a different set of rules during 3 of the 4 majors. Toss in an ERC too. One game, one set of rules. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)
David great point– But I am not really refering to Casey–I’m refering to guys who are healthy enough to walk–I think they’re body is better prepared to play a golf shot if they walk 18 holes. Sitting in a golf cart waiting for a green to clear drives me up a wall. The casey martin isuue is tough–he can’t walk —and in a few years he won’t be able to walk to the mailbox. Brad
Well, if you wanted to post about your preference regarding carts, you could I prefer to walk too but that isn’t relevant to the Martin vs. PGA case. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)
Sort -of-is an issue to the competition. Pga events are played at a 5-hour clip— If he’s riding–he’s sitting on his ass a lot waiting for his next shot. Tiger, Lehman, and Duval are walking to they’re balls keeping themselves warm and they’re muscles loose. Tiger and the others are better prepared in my opinion to play the next shot–and have the advantage over Casey. It’s just Casey has no other way to do it. Just my thoughts. Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David great point– But I am not really refering to Casey–I’m refering to guys who are healthy enough to walk–I think they’re body is better prepared to play a golf shot if they walk 18 holes. Sitting in a golf cart waiting for a green to clear drives me up a wall. The casey martin isuue is tough–he can’t walk —and in a few years he won’t be able to walk to the mailbox. Brad Well, if you wanted to post about your preference regarding carts, you could I prefer to walk too but that isn’t relevant to the Martin vs. PGA case. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)
<snip I hate golf carts and golf paths <snip Phil
If I ever get rich (don’t hold your breath), I’m going to build a golf course. No riding carts. No cart paths. And RSGers play for free… — Joe Cartpath WebPage: http://home.midsouth.rr.com/joecartpath RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/reedj.htm
You guys are crazy— They do not play those conditions on a regular basis. On a regular basis–the player has an advantage walking–staying loose, and walking to his ball. The ‘hurry – up and wait" while sitting in a golf cart ruins a player. June, July, Aug –OK–but the other 9 months a walker has an advantage over 18 holes. He’s better prepared with a body ready to play his shot. Brad
Oh, well in that case give him a cart. After all, he’ll only be playing by a different set of rules during 3 of the 4 majors. Toss in an ERC too. One game, one set of rules. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel for him. I really do. Life is not fair, just ask anyone who’s born blind or born into a family of losers. God plays some ugly tricks on us sometimes, and it’s hard for us to know what his reasons are. That’s why we have faith. I don’t, however, think God’s reasons for doing the things he does is so we can punish those more fortunate simply because they *are* fortunate. I am reminded of a line from the first Superman movie where Christopher Reeves says, "is it wrong for a bird to fly?" I just think the essence of sport is that all competitors should be playing the same game, and all play is under the same set of rules and conditions of competition, equally applied to all competitors. If you would cite one sport in the history of mankind where one player gets to have one of the rules waived, I’ll reconsider my position. Until then, it seems like a hose job to me, and a classic case of a spoiled brat with a rich family who *can* hire expensive lawyers to try to change the rules. I think it stinks, and I believe that fifty years from now, history won’t be so kind to Casey for trying to adapt the rules for his own selfish purpose, leaving an otherwise FAIR set of rules (fair, meaning, applicable to all competitors, like every other rule in sport) in disarray for all who come after him. Randy
Pretty dramatic response. I would not even hazard a guess as to what will be in 50 years. What with the generations coming behind us and the way the world is going who can say? They may be playing with jetpacks I have no idea what god thinks. That knowledge would certainly destroy my tiny mind. I hate golf carts and golf paths. I walk and carry. Lots of my friends that I compete with ride. I feel that I have the advantage. Walking makes it easier to "stay" in the game IMO. That’s for me only. Others feel otherwise. Fine, there is room for all of us. Golf is about using the fewest stroke to play a round. The ability to walk has nothing to do with this. I say again the PGA should have the right to determine its own rules. An exemption of a Casey Martin hurts no one. Who can blame Martin for going for it? Why is it a"hose" job to try and do what he loves? There is no "right" answer. Just opinion. Phil
I was born with a relatively mild case of Spina Bifida and cannot play golf without using a cart, but I believe that–unless every other golfer is also allowed to use a cart–Casey Martin should not be able to in tournament play. John — John O’Brien "I can tell your future, just look what’s in your hand" -R. Hunter
You guys are crazy— They do not play those conditions on a regular basis. On a regular basis–the player has an advantage walking–staying loose, and walking to his ball. The ‘hurry – up and wait" while sitting in a golf cart ruins a player. June, July, Aug –OK–but the other 9 months a walker has an advantage over 18 holes. He’s better prepared with a body ready to play his shot. Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bruce– I do not believe walking causes fatigue. I believe walkers –especially if the walker is not carrying his bag–is more prepared to play his shot than a rider. Maybe it’s just me–but I stay warm and loose when I walk. Venturi was fatigued by extreme comditions—100 plus degrees, 36 holes, and high humidity. I do not walk in excess of 95 degrees because it is not healthy. And those are the conditions under which golf tournaments are played. Weather affects tournaments and extreme weather will affect the walkers more than the rider(s). Of course if all the participants are playing under a single set of rules then no one will be left wondering if the variability in the rules had an effect on the outcome. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)
Imagine the pain and fatigue that Casey must feel during and after a round of golf. Just the in and out of the cart, the walk to ball and back, lining up putts, and hitting off that hurting leg. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person. Phil
Imagine the difficulty that Scott Verplank has dealing with his diabetes under the stress of PGA Tour conditions. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)
Handicaps are for flighted amateur events. On the tour everyone should play by the same rules. If you cannot qualify under the same rules then that is life and NOBODY can make life fair. Sorry just MHO.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Supreme Court will hear the Casey Martin case this week. The same folks that even though two justices had family members working for GeoWBush and another angrily saying she can’t retire when it looked like Gore was going to win on election night, will try to hear the case on its merits, not on the fact that the PGA is more Republican than the Republican Party. Don’t get me wrong, I strongly feel each sport should and must make its own rules and guidelines. The court should and must – rule against Martin, BUT the PGA must then grant permission for Casey to play with a cart as a special exemption (exemptions and PGA golf go hand and hand). It was good to hear, last night, people like Lehman, Faxon as well as Casey’s two old teammates, Woods and Begay giving full support to Martin. Mike Weir also supported Casey but mentioned that fatigue from walking plays a part in the game. If you don’t carry your own clubs, then walking fatigue has no bearing on the game what so ever (im a card carrying walker myself). If you can’t walk a couple hundred yards, hit a ball; maybe you may be less the athlete then Martin is handicapped. Give me a break. He doesn’t want strokes to win, he isn’t trying to lower the basket, or retire batters on less strikes. Let the guy play – he hits as long as Woods or Daly. As a sports photographer I caught a glimpse of Martins right leg several years back – it’s as thick as a pencil – no lie. He will lose the leg soon. Martin is good for the game, good for everyone is this greedy world. The PGA needs the diversity and compassion.
Imagine the pain and fatigue that Casey must feel during and after a round of golf. Just the in and out of the cart, the walk to ball and back, lining up putts, and hitting off that hurting leg. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person.
That is another matter entirely, however. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
Well he can walk which gives him a legup on Casey, and modern medicine can help him be nearly normal. Complicated issue. Clearly the PGA should have the right to determine its own rules of engagement. How to deal with an issue like Casey’s is perplexing to say the least. Phil
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Imagine the pain and fatigue that Casey must feel during and after a round of golf. Just the in and out of the cart, the walk to ball and back, lining up putts, and hitting off that hurting leg. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person. Phil Imagine the difficulty that Scott Verplank has dealing with his diabetes under the stress of PGA Tour conditions. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)
Imagine the pain and fatigue that Casey must feel during and after a round of golf. Just the in and out of the cart, the walk to ball and back, lining up putts, and hitting off that hurting leg. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person.
I feel for him. I really do. Life is not fair, just ask anyone who’s born blind or born into a family of losers. God plays some ugly tricks on us sometimes, and it’s hard for us to know what his reasons are. That’s why we have faith. I don’t, however, think God’s reasons for doing the things he does is so we can punish those more fortunate simply because they *are* fortunate. I am reminded of a line from the first Superman movie where Christopher Reeves says, "is it wrong for a bird to fly?" I just think the essence of sport is that all competitors should be playing the same game, and all play is under the same set of rules and conditions of competition, equally applied to all competitors. If you would cite one sport in the history of mankind where one player gets to have one of the rules waived, I’ll reconsider my position. Until then, it seems like a hose job to me, and a classic case of a spoiled brat with a rich family who *can* hire expensive lawyers to try to change the rules. I think it stinks, and I believe that fifty years from now, history won’t be so kind to Casey for trying to adapt the rules for his own selfish purpose, leaving an otherwise FAIR set of rules (fair, meaning, applicable to all competitors, like every other rule in sport) in disarray for all who come after him. Randy
Imagine the pain and fatigue that Casey must feel during and after a round of golf. Just the in and out of the cart, the walk to ball and back, lining up putts, and hitting off that hurting leg. I think his game is affected much more than a healthy person. Phil
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Venturi was fatigued by extreme comditions— 100 plus degrees, 36 holes, and high humidity. I do not walk in excess of 95 degrees because it is not healthy. Yes, and the TOUR plays in those conditions, all summer long. Should an able-bodied, well-conditioned athlete be able to handle it? Absolutely. But to suggest that it doesn’t have *some* affect over the course of a long day, especially when players are forced to play 36 holes in a day, is simply ridiculous. Especially when a course is very hilly. And remember, whenever there’s a 36-hole day, it’s because there was a rain-out, which quite often means the ground is sloppy and sloshy, which means walking through it the next day can be additionally fatiguing. Randy
Venturi was fatigued by extreme comditions— 100 plus degrees, 36 holes, and high humidity. I do not walk in excess of 95 degrees because it is not healthy.
Yes, and the TOUR plays in those conditions, all summer long. Should an able-bodied, well-conditioned athlete be able to handle it? Absolutely. But to suggest that it doesn’t have *some* affect over the course of a long day, especially when players are forced to play 36 holes in a day, is simply ridiculous. Especially when a course is very hilly. And remember, whenever there’s a 36-hole day, it’s because there was a rain-out, which quite often means the ground is sloppy and sloshy, which means walking through it the next day can be additionally fatiguing. Randy
Bruce– I do not believe walking causes fatigue. I believe walkers –especially if the walker is not carrying his bag–is more prepared to play his shot than a rider. Maybe it’s just me–but I stay warm and loose when I walk. Venturi was fatigued by extreme comditions—100 plus degrees, 36 holes, and high humidity. I do not walk in excess of 95 degrees because it is not healthy. Just my personal opinion ( at the golf store today I looked at the Hogan Apex’s and said–" These should be Newmans"–really! Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IYou say this as though it is an indisputable fact. Please don’t get on my back, because I am not trying to change your mind at all, but I agree completely with Mike Weir. In my experience, walking causes fatigue. I always carry my clubs, but have played _many_ tournaments using a caddie–not at the PGA Tour level though. As a rule, I am fresher at the beginning of a round than over the last few holes. Mind you, the _degree_ of fatigue isn’t normally huge but, depending on weather conditions, it can be quite significant. Example: ask Ken Venturi if walking caused him any fatigue during his US Open win at Congressional (1964?). I also believe that the significance of fatigue becomes greater the higher the level of play. Bruce RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
Bruce– I do not believe walking causes fatigue. I believe walkers –especially if the walker is not carrying his bag–is more prepared to play his shot than a rider. Maybe it’s just me–but I stay warm and loose when I walk. Venturi was fatigued by extreme comditions—100 plus degrees, 36 holes, and high humidity. I do not walk in excess of 95 degrees because it is not healthy.
And those are the conditions under which golf tournaments are played. Weather affects tournaments and extreme weather will affect the walkers more than the rider(s). Of course if all the participants are playing under a single set of rules then no one will be left wondering if the variability in the rules had an effect on the outcome. — –dph (dhayes AT iname DOT com)
Bruce– I do not believe walking causes fatigue. I believe walkers –especially if the walker is not carrying his bag–is more prepared to play his shot than a rider. Maybe it’s just me–but I stay warm and loose when I walk. Venturi was fatigued by extreme comditions—100 plus degrees, 36 holes, and high humidity. I do not walk in excess of 95 degrees because it is not
healthy. Don’t get me wrong; I play better walking, but that is another matter than fatigue. Extreme conditions in themselves don’t cause fatigue, but walking (or doing anything else) in extreme conditions does cause it fatigue. In Venturi’s case, for example, he wouldn’t have been as fatigued sitting in a chair as walking the course. The fatigue comes from the exercise in the heat, not just from the heat. For most "normal" people like you and me, I think the significance is so small that some consider it non-existant. At higher levels of play though, I think the significance increases. I can’t say this is true for everyone (although I think it is, at least in theory), but I know it is true for me because I have many experiences with it. Particularly at high temperature and humidity, my legs get weak and my swing tends to get loose late in a round. That is often the difference between winning and losing. Just my personal opinion ( at the golf store today I looked at the Hogan Apex’s and said–" These should be Newmans"–really!
*laughing* Bruce RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
The Supreme Court will hear the Casey Martin case this week. That makes perfect sense to me. The exemption idea is a win-win situation. PGA gets to make its own rules and Casey gets to play. Phil
Who gets bumped for Casey’s spot?
The Supreme Court will hear the Casey Martin case this week. The same folks that even though two justices had family members working for GeoWBush and another angrily saying she can
Everyone should complain to the PGA and CBS. If they can’t show the complete playoff, they should not be alowed to show PGA golf events.
Everyone should complain to the PGA and CBS. If they can’t show the complete playoff, they should not be alowed to show PGA golf events.
Actually the best place to send complaints would be to: C.E. Lee Chairman/CEO GTE 1255 Corporate Drive Irving, TX 75038 United States (972) 507-5000 Both the PGA and CBS listens to him. "Someone likes every shot" bk
Actually the best place to send complaints would be to: C.E. Lee Chairman/CEO GTE 1255 Corporate Drive Irving, TX 75038 United States (972) 507-5000
Finding email addresses is a little difficult, but here’s a url for feedback to GTE: http://gtebdinrsp.cam-colo.bbnplanet.com/servlet/Feedback
I think another good place would be PGA.com. IMO, complaints from all of us golfers to this org would carry more weight in getting results than going to CBS. Flood the PGA and they would get the message, we’re pissed! They could exclude networks that don’t agree to broadcast COMPLETE coverage, start to finish. Mark * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
Make that PGATour.com (PGA.com is the professional organization not the tour) … which conveniently happens to be in partnership with CBS Sportsline. I looked on the site and the editor’s email address is Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World’s Usenet/Discussions Start Here Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf I think another good place would be PGA.com. IMO, complaints from all of us golfers to this org would carry more weight in getting results than going to CBS. Flood the PGA and they would get the message, we’re pissed! They could exclude networks that don’t agree to broadcast COMPLETE coverage, start to finish. Mark * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
Sportsline. I looked on the site and the editor’s email address is
I e-mailed sportsline and received this response: "Although we have a relationship with CBS Sports, we are solely responsible for the production of the web-site found at cbs.sportsline.com. Your comments, however, are extremely important to CBS Television. Please click on the link below to share your comments with CBS. http://cbsnews.cbs.com/ On the bottom-left hand rail, you will see the word "FEEDBACK". This will take you to the feedback page…" Seems no one wants to claim responsibility for this fiasco.
Here’s the list of everyone to whom you might want to send your input. My feelings are that the best track is to GTE then to the Salesmanship Club of the Nelson tournament. I think that the CBS and PGA will just point fingers at each other. The first two really have some input. C.E. Lee Chairman/CEO GTE 1255 Corporate Drive Irving, TX 75038 United States (972) 507-5000 Finding email addresses is a little difficult, but here’s a url for feedback to GTE: http://gtebdinrsp.cam-colo.bbnplanet.com/servlet/Feedback This is the comments section of the PGAtour page. They’ll say that they only are a website, but will pass the comments on. CBS is a little more diffused. Try this url, but when you’re asked for a destination and you enter "sports", it might go to sportsline.com http://cbsnews.cbs.com/now/feedback/0,1611,412,00.html Here’s the editor of sportsline.com. They will cop out. The people who run the Byron Nelson tournament (The Salesmanship Club) will be interested in your input too. They raise more money than any other event on the PGA tour for charities…and the PGA tour itself. This lady will pass on to the Salesmanship Club officers, and maybe to Byron himself. Wagner at (214)528-0085. Contact all of them…it won’t hurt. "Someone likes every shot" bk
Everyone should complain to the PGA and CBS. If they can’t show the complete playoff, they should not be alowed to show PGA golf events.
The worst one I ever heard of, I didn’t even know was happening at the time. In the 1994 U.S. Open at Oakmont, Ernie Els and Loren Roberts went to sudden death after an 18 hole playoff with Colin Montgomerie. When Els and Roberts were on the 19th, TV cut in to show the OJ Simpson arraingment. I was at Oakmont, and saw the playoff end, but I was still pissed when I found out the network did that! Especially since every other station was showing OJ!
Sounds like CBS has had an earful from the PGA Tour, I guess it was part of the contract that CBS couldn’t cut away. Plenty of other people are making their displeasure known as well and CBS has said they won’t do it again: http://www.golf.com/news/gol/pga/2000/05/15/958422970121.html Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Verio Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf Here’s the list of everyone to whom you might want to send your input. My feelings are that the best track is to GTE then to the Salesmanship Club of the Nelson tournament. I think that the CBS and PGA will just point fingers at each other. The first two really have some input. C.E. Lee Chairman/CEO GTE 1255 Corporate Drive Irving, TX 75038 United States (972) 507-5000 Finding email addresses is a little difficult, but here’s a url for feedback to GTE: http://gtebdinrsp.cam-colo.bbnplanet.com/servlet/Feedback This is the comments section of the PGAtour page. They’ll say that they only are a website, but will pass the comments on. CBS is a little more diffused. Try this url, but when you’re asked for a destination and you enter "sports", it might go to sportsline.com http://cbsnews.cbs.com/now/feedback/0,1611,412,00.html Here’s the editor of sportsline.com. They will cop out. The people who run the Byron Nelson tournament (The Salesmanship Club) will be interested in your input too. They raise more money than any other event on the PGA tour for charities…and the PGA tour itself. This lady will pass on to the Salesmanship Club officers, and maybe to Byron himself. Wagner at (214)528-0085. Contact all of them…it won’t hurt. "Someone likes every shot" bk
One more place I provided feedback was: http://www.thegolfchannel.com/navigation/frameset/vfindex.htm
The worst one I ever heard of,
Did you think that we wouldn’t get it the first time you posted this? "Someone likes every shot" bk
Golf Magazine (May,1999) listed the Top 25 Golf Schools in the US. In the Orlando area they include; Arnold Palmer Academy, Leadbetter Academy, Cypress Gardens and PGA Golf Academy (Palm Beach). Do any RSG’s have recommendations or experiences to share about any of these schools? I intend to choose one of these this winter. Thnaks for your responses. Bob Wheaton
says… Golf Magazine (May,1999) listed the Top 25 Golf Schools in the US. In the Orlando area they include; Arnold Palmer Academy, Leadbetter Academy, Cypress Gardens and PGA Golf Academy (Palm Beach). Do any RSG’s have recommendations or experiences to share about any of these schools? I intend to choose one of these this winter. Thnaks for your responses. Bob Wheaton
Dear Bob: I went to the PGA National school and I thought it was awesome. I have changed my swing as a result. I haven’t gotten to where I want it, but I know now what to work on because of that school. I went for a few lessons at Grand Cypress, and it was OK but not great like PGA National. (I’m a 22 handicap, been playing 4 years and am in my mid-50’s, in case that info helps you.) Capn Zip
I would rank them as follows: 1. Eagle Marsh 2. PGA Golf Club (Reserve) 3. Ballantrae 4. Florida Club 5. Cobblestone 6. Champions 7. Golden Bear I don’t know anything about Cutter Sound and I haven’t played St. Lucie West in years. Notes about the courses; *Eagle Marsh: extremely difficult from the tips, long carries over wetlands….but an absolutely drop dead gorgeous track. *PGA Club: Both courses are always in excellent condition, the greens on the North course are brutal by Florida standards, very undulating, has more elevation changes than the South. Well drained. Can’t go wrong on either. *Ballantrae: Nicklaus course, fairways are forgiving, a fair amount of water, good shape. *Florida Club: a nice little course that has some interesting holes, course management here, firm greens *Cobblestone: tricked up course, tight, a good bit of water *Champions: Fazio course, average is the word here, nice layout but not terribly exciting to play *Golden Bear: young course, wide open, hardly any trees, not interesting at all, the best thing about the course is the club house which is a monument to Nicklaus You picked a great place to play. We drive up from Miami all the time because the course are better maintained and don’t get as many rounds on them as the ones in Dade and Broward counties. Have fun!
I’ve played four of the courses listed. I highly recommend the PGA Reserve courses (North & South) and Hammock Creek (Jack Nicklaus). Ballantrae is a few notches below the above courses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be in Pt. St. Lucie , FL for about 9 days, and I have these choices of courses to chose from. Does anyone know anything about these courses, and make some recommendations? 1. Ballantrae 2. Champions Club at Summerfield 3. Cobblestone 4. Florida Club 5. Golden Bear at Hammock Creek 6. Cutter Sound 7. Eagle Marsh 8. PGA Golf club / North & South 9. St. Lucie West Thanks a lot for any and all help. …Fred
Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
I will be in Pt. St. Lucie , FL for about 9 days, and I have these choices of courses to chose from. Does anyone know anything about these courses, and make some recommendations? 1. Ballantrae 2. Champions Club at Summerfield 3. Cobblestone 4. Florida Club 5. Golden Bear at Hammock Creek 6. Cutter Sound 7. Eagle Marsh 8. PGA Golf club / North & South 9. St. Lucie West Thanks a lot for any and all help. …Fred
No Way!!! Those are his *trademark*. Besides that, he’s one of the few golfers to wear appropriate clothing and sunglasses to prevent premature skin aging and perhaps cancer. We should ALL be wearing shades and hats (well, I do already). And he’ll never be #1 until he loses those stupid sunglasses!
Duval has said he started wearing sunglasses in college because of a high pollen count and the effects of wind. He also wears contacts. He said they help keep his eyes clean and help him keep focussed. Seems to work 
Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham
Big difference in the fist-pumping realm. Tiger does it over anything and for a while, it was often. It’s always got a lot of mustard on it and he always has this sneering scowl on his face. Duval is normally restrained and not at all into histrionics. He had just accomplished something that 2 other players in the big leagues have done. In the history of PGA golf. I saw a deal on SportsCenter trying to draw a comparison to other sports. Much more rare than the 4 HR game. Compares with the 20 strike-out game. More rare than 70 point NBA game. More rare than 250 yds rushing game in the NFL. More rare than the 6 goal game in the NHL. Finally, he had a smile on his face and was high-fiving with his caddie. Big difference. Tiger is pure arrogance. (I don’t sign balls.) Duval is one of the boys. YMMV. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -KenPitts wrote … How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Ken YoYo brings up an excellent point. Your criticism of Duval’s fist-pumping after holing out for 59 is conspicuous by its absence. Gee, there were even other players on the green who had not yet holed their putts. Hardly seems sporstmanlike to me. As for the World Rankings, there is much speculation that the mathmatical formula used to determine it will begin to come under much closer scrutiny this year, especially with all the World Golf Championship tournaments. I have to agree with you that everyone knows who’s the number one player in the world — everyone, that is, except those who publish the rankings. But remember, it’s a two-year rolling formula. And after Augusta this year, Tiger’s one major win (the one jewel in the crown Duval is missing right now) will roll off. Then, it’s mano-a-mano, and at the moment, the one burning question in the golf world is, "Tiger WHO?" Randy
Gee, there were even other players on the green who had not yet holed their putts. Hardly seems sporstmanlike to me.
Is that true? I thought he let the other guys putt out first. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
when duval was pumping his fist, the other players and their caddies were shaking his hand. if tig i mean eldrick can ever break 60 he`ll be allowed to pump his fist also how many times have you seen that jerk bury his wood in the tee ,just before the next guy has tohit.( very sportsman like) or bury his wedge in the fairway like a little baby. after all a shitload of different golfers have won majors but only THREE have broken 60, and only ONEon a sunday. so that has to be worth something .
gee I’ve never seen any other pro golfer do that <S why are you so hard on Tiger, from your posts I get the feeling that you are alot like him on or off the course.
how many times have you seen that jerk bury his wood in the tee ,just before the next guy has tohit.( very sportsman like) or bury his wedge in the fairway like a little baby.
I would bet that he goes to number one with the sunglasses.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And he’ll never be #1 until he loses those stupid sunglasses! How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Yes, but you have to admit, all that fist pumping was very unsportsmanlike. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
No Way!!! Those are his *trademark*. Besides that, he’s one of the few golfers to wear appropriate clothing and sunglasses to prevent premature skin aging and perhaps cancer. We should ALL be wearing shades and hats (well, I do already). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And he’ll never be #1 until he loses those stupid sunglasses!
Y’know, that’s the main reason I am not a Tiger fan. I think a golfer of his talent should play as many tournaments as most of the other golfers. The fans at the smaller-venue tournaments should be able to see the top golfers too. It gives me a Prima Donna impression. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well there is nothing wrong with the rankings but if Duval really wanted to be No. 1 then he shouldn’t play so many tourneys. Thats why his points average 0.2 points behind Woods. Crispin Roche
That’s why I wear them too (contacts). I played the other day with overcast skies and didn’t wear them. My lenses got so dried out I could hardly see coming up the 9th fairway. Ran to my car between sides and got them. World of difference on the back. (well, with my eyes, not so much my score!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Duval has said he started wearing sunglasses in college because of a high pollen count and the effects of wind. He also wears contacts. He said they help keep his eyes clean and help him keep focussed. Seems to work
Hey YoYo, I apologize for flaming you , I didn’t catch the . As for you Dan, I’ve been around, I just don’t post much. Cya Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re new around here, aren’t you? Good Golf Dan Since you’ve pointed out that he’s a poor sportsman (in your opinion) I guess you don’t relish or support him in his success and therefor couldn’t or wouldn’t learn anything from a poor sport, multimillionaire professional golfer. I say "way to go duvall" pump that fist in your own celebration all you want and don’t even bother with a guy like YoYo. Cya Joe How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Yes, but you have to admit, all that fist pumping was very unsportsmanlike. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
KenPitts wrote … How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Ken
YoYo brings up an excellent point. Your criticism of Duval’s fist-pumping after holing out for 59 is conspicuous by its absence. Gee, there were even other players on the green who had not yet holed their putts. Hardly seems sporstmanlike to me. As for the World Rankings, there is much speculation that the mathmatical formula used to determine it will begin to come under much closer scrutiny this year, especially with all the World Golf Championship tournaments. I have to agree with you that everyone knows who’s the number one player in the world — everyone, that is, except those who publish the rankings. But remember, it’s a two-year rolling formula. And after Augusta this year, Tiger’s one major win (the one jewel in the crown Duval is missing right now) will roll off. Then, it’s mano-a-mano, and at the moment, the one burning question in the golf world is, "Tiger WHO?" Randy
You go, Yo. Randy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since you’ve pointed out that he’s a poor sportsman (in your opinion) I guess you don’t relish or support him in his success and therefor couldn’t or wouldn’t learn anything from a poor sport, multimillionaire professional golfer. I say "way to go duvall" pump that fist in your own celebration all you want and don’t even bother with a guy like YoYo. Okay: free clue time: This – :-) is commonly known as a "smiley". It denotes a sarcastic or humorously intended statement. If you’d read this newsgroup for any length of time, you’d be familiar with the flamewars regarding Tiger Woods fist-pumping and its supposed unsportsmanlike qualities. In short: I was kidding. Lighten up. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
crispen not for long eldrick is living off of the tourneys he won a year and a half ago. the only reason eldrick is no one is because he`s not playing!
good one yoyo maybe if little eldrick would stop pouting like a little girl every time he misses a twenty footer & stop pumping hs fist every time hemakes a three footer ,he`d win more. good one eric all you can do is knock the most popular sunglasses ADMIT IT DUVAL IS WAY BETTER THAN LITTLE ELDRICK
Hey! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And he’ll never be #1 until he loses those stupid sunglasses! How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Yes, but you have to admit, all that fist pumping was very unsportsmanlike. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
Hey buddy, Did you happen to catch the smiley face that means humor <G Grin <TiC Tongue in Cheek. GET A CLUE Cya – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since you’ve pointed out that he’s a poor sportsman (in your opinion) I guess you don’t relish or support him in his success and therefor couldn’t or wouldn’t learn anything from a poor sport, multimillionaire professional golfer. I say "way to go duvall" pump that fist in your own celebration all you want and don’t even bother with a guy like YoYo. Cya Joe How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Yes, but you have to admit, all that fist pumping was very unsportsmanlike. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ?<< Do you think the guys who placed $40 million in Woods’ hands have anything to do with it? (g). Steve Conlon Conlon’s Custom Clubs http://www.hominyhill.com
I’ve thought of that since IMG runs the world golf rankings (formerly Sony – which is probably why Ozaki was in the top ten for years, but I digress). It’d be very interesting doing an audit on the system. May turn up a little tweaking in favor of the IMG stable. Scott
Well there is nothing wrong with the rankings but if Duval really wanted to be No. 1 then he shouldn’t play so many tourneys. Thats why his points average 0.2 points behind Woods. Crispin Roche
t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Ken
Since you’ve pointed out that he’s a poor sportsman (in your opinion) I guess you don’t relish or support him in his success and therefor couldn’t or wouldn’t learn anything from a poor sport, multimillionaire professional golfer. I say "way to go duvall" pump that fist in your own celebration all you want and don’t even bother with a guy like YoYo.
Okay: free clue time: This – :-) is commonly known as a "smiley". It denotes a sarcastic or humorously intended statement. If you’d read this newsgroup for any length of time, you’d be familiar with the flamewars regarding Tiger Woods fist-pumping and its supposed unsportsmanlike qualities. In short: I was kidding. Lighten up. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
You’re new around here, aren’t you? Good Golf Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since you’ve pointed out that he’s a poor sportsman (in your opinion) I guess you don’t relish or support him in his success and therefor couldn’t or wouldn’t learn anything from a poor sport, multimillionaire professional golfer. I say "way to go duvall" pump that fist in your own celebration all you want and don’t even bother with a guy like YoYo. Cya Joe How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Yes, but you have to admit, all that fist pumping was very unsportsmanlike. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
Since you’ve pointed out that he’s a poor sportsman (in your opinion) I guess you don’t relish or support him in his success and therefor couldn’t or wouldn’t learn anything from a poor sport, multimillionaire professional golfer. I say "way to go duvall" pump that fist in your own celebration all you want and don’t even bother with a guy like YoYo. Cya Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Yes, but you have to admit, all that fist pumping was very unsportsmanlike. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Ken
How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window.
Yes, but you have to admit, all that fist pumping was very unsportsmanlike. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
And he’ll never be #1 until he loses those stupid sunglasses! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How long can these bogus rankings hang on without having him #1 ? That makes 9 wins that are within the 2 year window. Yes, but you have to admit, all that fist pumping was very unsportsmanlike. — "…and there are plenty of people joining in to help Tiger Woods find his tee shot." -Mike Tirico
Six months had passed after such treated cells had been transplanted into a large number of mice of a highly specialized strain that had naturally developed Type 1 diabetes. The mice had been cured completely of their diabetes, and showed absolutely no signs of rejecting the human beta cells. (This she demonstrated by a specific blood test carried out on the mice on a regular basis.) I waited and waited for more news on this project. I would follow her subsequent journal articles using Med-Line to find them. Two results: 1) Not a word was ever made again of the mice. I can think of a number of legit reasons this could happen. #1 with a bullet is…. The mice died. That is, something went wrong and their immune systems finally got it in gear and rejected the implanted cells Or, #2 (same thing) the mich had not developed type 1 on their own and it was found that though they could be treated to accept HUMAN cells they would normally reject, IT did not matter because a malfunctioning (TYPE 1 diabetic) immune system would still reject them. #3, The experiment was could not be repeated (not likely in this case I suspect, but still, has to be included on the possibilities list) Someone buying the research off, though not impossible… Is rather far down the lists if only because of the prestige given those who have a Nobel Peace Prize for Medicine on their resume. "Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business" Do you plan to run? "Like blazes, first chance get!! Net-Tamer V 1.08X – Registered
I stand corrected. Useing another search engine, I found a summary of an article from the "Scientific American" titled "Graft without Corruption". The article summary outlines the work done by Denise Faustman and Chuck Coe concerning transplanting tissue on internal organs without rejection. Scientific American, Sept 1991, V265 N3 p18, article # A11209742. I could not find the whole article. I hope this helps someone find it because I would love to read it. Michael Burress – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having trouble finding the WSJ or Science articles you we’re referring to. I did an author search on the Science magazine for 1991(Faustman, Denise) and a word search for 1991 WSJ(same parameters) and could find nothing. Not sure if it was just my search engine or if the mystery deepens. Michael Burress.
Having trouble finding the WSJ or Science articles you we’re referring to. I did an author search on the Science magazine for 1991(Faustman, Denise) and a word search for 1991 WSJ(same parameters) and could find nothing. Not sure if it was just my search engine or if the mystery deepens. Michael Burress. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year. Diabetes research has been going on since the discovery of insulin, and there no closer now than when they first started! Each year small improvements are made in the treatment of diabetes and it’s complications, but nothing for a cure. I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue. Let me relate something I found to be interesting. Back in 1991, a certain medical researcher, Dr. Denise Faustman, had a report printed in the prestigious journal Science which outlined her experiment wherein she had found a way to strip the material from the outer cell walls on human beta cells which makes it possible for the immunological system to recognize cells as being foreign to the recipient. She described the process in sufficient detail that anyone else with her background and resources could do the same. Six months had passed after such treated cells had been transplanted into a large number of mice of a highly specialized strain that had naturally developed Type 1 diabetes. The mice had been cured completely of their diabetes, and showed absolutely no signs of rejecting the human beta cells. (This she demonstrated by a specific blood test carried out on the mice on a regular basis.)
I have heard these type of statments about almost all of the major research projects. Although anything is possible I guess I would like to believe that they are not holding back because, even though there is big money and many jobs in the research, if a cure is found don’t you think that there are enough health issues in the world that all those jobs/people would simply move on to other problems. MS, Lou Garrets, Aids. I think, until we have cured everything there will always be room for research. Maybe I’m being too optimistic and I sure would hate it if I found out there was a cure for the common cold! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year. Diabetes research has been going on since the discovery of insulin, and there no closer now than when they first started! Each year small improvements are made in the treatment of diabetes and it’s complications, but nothing for a cure. I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue.
– Scott Hawley
That is a report that many of us would like to read. I know the WSJ is online, have you tried to find it by checking there internet resources? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Michel, can you send me that report? It sounds vitally important. Thanks! Susie I now know that I can find the original article in the Wall Street Journal that came out when the report was published in 1991, by using the WSJ Index.
I find it strange that many people seem to believe that a certain amount of money funneled into a certain research project will produce the desired results within a certain amount of time, as though the answer were out there waiting to be found, and all that you had to do was look for it for long enough. That’s not the way research works — although companies and researchers may foster that idea in order to justify funding. The progress of medical research (or any other kind of scientific research) is simply not as predictable as many people believe, or as we would like it to be. It really bugs me when people make statements like "If such-and-such a condition were true, we’d have a cure for AIDS/diabetes/cancer by now." There’s just no way to know that. This is not to say that I think that the companies doing research always do things the way I’d like them to, or that I think they’re altruistic organizations; but I also don’t think they’re all-powerful. We shouldn’t underestimate the real problems and setbacks that researchers face. Easy answers are few and far between. If you look at medical history, most so-called cures are actually vaccines and other preventive measures, such as public health campaigns that strive to prevent transmission of the disease organism and eventually eradicated it from the population. Smallpox has been eradicated, not cured. No virus has ever been cured. Effective vaccines exist for many viruses — but not cures. There are only two types of true cures I can think of: surgical cures (of which many now exist for various conditions) and antibiotics, which are an effective cure for many bacterial infections. (This may be backfiring by promoting the development of drug-resistant strains of bacteria, but that’s another story.) Revolutions in medicine, like the development of anti- biotics, just don’t happen very often. I have virtually no hope for a cure for diabetes in my lifetime. This doesn’t mean that I’m without hope; it just means that my hope is for treatments that will decrease the amount of time I have to spend managing my condition. /Janet — "A lack of sensitivity is not implicit in a distaste for sentimentality. Cruelty and sentimentality are often quite closely related." — Annabel Davis-Goff, _The Dower House_
Maybe he needs soemthing different, other oral agents or possibly insulin. You may find supplemental therapies that help, but they are going to significantly treat him or cure him. Art Schor – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Merry said: His sugar is 320 and rising with perfect diet, walking, Maybe his "perfect" diet is perfect for someone else? I would look into other diets. Good luck Paloma
Michel, can you send me that report? It sounds vitally important. Thanks! Susie </PRE</HTML
At least, put the issue, page #, etc. of Science on here so we can look it up! Thanks. BL
Michel, can you send me that report? It sounds vitally important. Thanks! Susie
I haven’t seen my copy of it for a couple of years. And thirty minutes of search around here has failed to unearth it. Chemistry labs are bastions of order compared to their offices. Last school year, I was trying to look it up again for someone, but then discovered that Med-Line had dropped it. I now know that I can find the original article in the Wall Street Journal that came out when the report was published in 1991, by using the WSJ Index. Once I do that, I can get hold of the original report. Para cuando?, you ask. Once I get my station wagon back together (today) the vehicle I use to travel to UCSD with, which can carry my 18-speed bicycle (much more efficient than hiking, as the distances to be covered at UCSD without a car span miles), I’ll get over there and do all this. I do believe that it is high time to investigate what happened. Seven years have now passed. In the university world, it is perfectly acceptable to communicate with other researchers, no matter how great they are, via Internet E-mail. I can probably get her E-mail address. I will approach her for advice on doing something technically similar so as not to possibly embarrass her if hers was a project that went sour. Discretion can pay great dividends. Thank you for your interest in this subject. I have often remarked that if they hadn’t tried to cut me off from my medications, I could have been devoting all these past three years of study in the direction of Dr. Faustman’s work. And no, I would never have let anything or anyone deter me from reaching that goal– which would have been a simple, *affordable* method of replacing beta cells in Type 1 diabetics. Sometimes I think that would have been easier than the project I am working on now. However, my current project has jelled to the extent that it now has a time table, and it may be all over with by this time two years from now. Probably then I could turn my attention to the beta cell transplant subject. It wouldn’t be like starting over– just a matter of furthering my studies in biochemistry and mammalian physiology. Best regards, Michel
Michel, can you send me that report? It sounds vitally important. Thanks! Susie
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year. Diabetes research has been going on since the discovery of insulin, and there no closer now than when they first started! Each year small improvements are made in the treatment of diabetes and it’s complications, but nothing for a cure. I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue. Let me relate something I found to be interesting. Back in 1991, a certain medical researcher, Dr. Denise Faustman, had a report printed in the prestigious journal Science which outlined her experiment wherein she had found a way to strip the material from the outer cell walls on human beta cells which makes it possible for the immunological system to recognize cells as being foreign to the recipient. She described the process in sufficient detail that anyone else with her background and resources could do the same. Six months had passed after such treated cells had been transplanted into a large number of mice of a highly specialized strain that had naturally developed Type 1 diabetes. The mice had been cured completely of their diabetes, and showed absolutely no signs of rejecting the human beta cells. (This she demonstrated by a specific blood test carried out on the mice on a regular basis.) I waited and waited for more news on this project. I would follow her subsequent journal articles using Med-Line to find them. Two results: 1) Not a word was ever made again of the mice. This I thought was strange, even if Dr. Faustman was not a diabetologist but a researcher into the workings of the immune system. Surely she wouldn’t have just lost interest in the project, one that could lead to one of the greatest cures in medicine. What happened? Did the mice suddenly start dying? Could this have happened and the report she made became an embarrassment to her? Or, did some rich and powerful arm of dia-business come along and make her an offer she couldn’t refuse (such as funding some of her other work to distract her from her diabetic mice)? I wouldn’t put it past them. 2) The reference in Med-Line to that 1991 article was later mysteriously dropped, while all her previous and subsequent work was retained indexed intact. Hmmmm. (I still have a copy of that article around here.) . . . As for people’s complaints on this thread that huge amounts of money are spent in medical research without any results, may I point out that money doesn’t *buy* such results any more than it buys happiness. Solutions are made by creative intelligence. The money is only secondary, and the role it plays is supporting such people while they toil away on the problem, providing the necessary tools and equipment, and the building space for the project as well. Every time I hear somebody running for office promising a cure for something or other (like AIDS) by doubling, tripling or even quadrupling the amount of money spent on research, I laugh. You simply cannot solve these kinds of problems by throwing MONEY at them. It takes brains and sweat. Michel Martin
I agree with you. I’ve read various newspaper articles over the years about what they’re doing in France, England, or China to possibly cure diabetes (I think they’re more on top of things outside the USA…just my opinion). But then I hear nothing about it again. Would I hear more if I lived in those countries? Maybe, maybe not. The fact is, I think a lot of it is a "smoke screen" for what’s really going on. Medical Research is not "policed" and they can say whatever they want. We take what they say as gospel because we’re so damn anxious for something miraculous to happen. You’re right about the money thing. The Jerry Lewis MDA Telethon has been going on for years and years. Yet, they’re no closer to a cure. Kids are getting new wheelchairs. But they are still living relatively short lives. Jerry seems to raise more than 40 million with the telethon, not including the other donations throughout the rest of the year. My parent’s old neighbor was a retired surgeon. He told me that the MDA has more money than they know what to do with…give to other causes that don’t get the attention. So that further supports your point that money is not the issue here. I’m not trying to slam Jerry Lewis. We have no one holding any kind of telethon for diabetes, which affects more people than anything else, so I certainly can’t begrudge the good he’s trying to do. His heart is in the right place. But even with all the money in the world, nothing really significant comes of it.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year.
you think that some pencil necks and scientists could keep, perhaps the discovery of the century, from the public.
Yup, it’s a fact they did! It’s the same group that had the word "gullible" removed from all the dictionaries. regards m
I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue.
1) grassy knoll, I doubt it 2) Doctors are too arrogant to hide a cure 3) we need root causes before we can "cure" anything what are they going to cure in me?? I don’t even know how I got it – how are "they" going to cure it??? get real – conspiracies are fun but please read #2 again Doug
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year. Diabetes research has been going on since the discovery of insulin, and there no closer now than when they first started! Each year small improvements are made in the treatment of diabetes and it’s complications, but nothing for a cure. I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue.
Let me relate something I found to be interesting. Back in 1991, a certain medical researcher, Dr. Denise Faustman, had a report printed in the prestigious journal Science which outlined her experiment wherein she had found a way to strip the material from the outer cell walls on human beta cells which makes it possible for the immunological system to recognize cells as being foreign to the recipient. She described the process in sufficient detail that anyone else with her background and resources could do the same. Six months had passed after such treated cells had been transplanted into a large number of mice of a highly specialized strain that had naturally developed Type 1 diabetes. The mice had been cured completely of their diabetes, and showed absolutely no signs of rejecting the human beta cells. (This she demonstrated by a specific blood test carried out on the mice on a regular basis.) I waited and waited for more news on this project. I would follow her subsequent journal articles using Med-Line to find them. Two results: 1) Not a word was ever made again of the mice. This I thought was strange, even if Dr. Faustman was not a diabetologist but a researcher into the workings of the immune system. Surely she wouldn’t have just lost interest in the project, one that could lead to one of the greatest cures in medicine. What happened? Did the mice suddenly start dying? Could this have happened and the report she made became an embarrassment to her? Or, did some rich and powerful arm of dia-business come along and make her an offer she couldn’t refuse (such as funding some of her other work to distract her from her diabetic mice)? I wouldn’t put it past them. 2) The reference in Med-Line to that 1991 article was later mysteriously dropped, while all her previous and subsequent work was retained indexed intact. Hmmmm. (I still have a copy of that article around here.) . . . As for people’s complaints on this thread that huge amounts of money are spent in medical research without any results, may I point out that money doesn’t *buy* such results any more than it buys happiness. Solutions are made by creative intelligence. The money is only secondary, and the role it plays is supporting such people while they toil away on the problem, providing the necessary tools and equipment, and the building space for the project as well. Every time I hear somebody running for office promising a cure for something or other (like AIDS) by doubling, tripling or even quadrupling the amount of money spent on research, I laugh. You simply cannot solve these kinds of problems by throwing MONEY at them. It takes brains and sweat. Michel Martin
Anyway, I’m looking for a simple CURE for this diabetes.
Merry, I agree with your notion that strong and expensive drugs are overprescribed and over promoted, but a simple CURE for diabetes? If you find out let us know. Don’t be too zealous in treating your husband yourself. Yes, diabetes patients are often low in zinc, magnesium, or calcium, but often they are not as well. Giving zinc to someone who is not low in zinc could be harmful. Can you find a good N.D. (one trained at Bastyr perhaps) to consult with? You need some objective evidence that he needs all this mineral supplementation before fooling around with it. Have you read Dr. Bernstein’s Diabetes Solution? I believe his is a sound approach. Good luck. BL
Merry said: His sugar is 320 and rising with perfect diet, walking,
Maybe his "perfect" diet is perfect for someone else? I would look into other diets. Good luck Paloma
A hidden cure? It’s much more subtle and insidious than that. Of course, if there actually WAS a cure, no one could hide it for long. But what’s really happening is that the big research labs don’t really put a lot of effort into a cure. They’ll SAY that they don’t have any real directions to follow, so they don’t want to poor money and time into a wild goose chase. But, they’re not spending a lot of time or money even LOOKING for that direction. So, they instead work on what they’ll say is "proven therapies", which really means "profitable therapies". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year. Diabetes research has been going on since the discovery of insulin, and there no closer now than when they first started! Each year small improvements are made in the treatment of diabetes and it’s complications, but nothing for a cure. I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue.
– Louis Sica
I am also a tad suspicious at the amount of money the medical research field rakes in and yet nothing really comes of it. Cancer, diabetes, heart, etc. Ethics is relative after all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year. Diabetes research has been going on since the discovery of insulin, and there no closer now than when they first started! Each year small improvements are made in the treatment of diabetes and it’s complications, but nothing for a cure. I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue.
Thanks Jennifer, I was diagnosed at age 10 and am now 32 and have also been hearing the same story…"a cure is coming in the next 5 years". Like you said, they have been saying this for at least the last 50 + years! I’m sick and tired of it! Now I’m having eye and kidney problems. Diabetes if viewed as a "maintenance" disease. Sure it’s maintainable, but the long term effect is what gets ya. Aids research has made leaps and bounds within the last 10 years. I’m positive a cure will be found for it within my lifetime. I don’t think I can predict the same for diabetes. However, I do predict if a cure if developed, it will be a preventative kind of thing that can be administered to high risk people who may develop diabetes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year. Diabetes research has been going on since the discovery of insulin, and there no closer now than when they first started! Each year small improvements are made in the treatment of diabetes and it’s complications, but nothing for a cure. I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue. Randy, I agree with you. The Jerry Lewis MDA Telethon is going on this weekend. They usually take in over $40 million from the telethon and probably more throughout the year. I’ve been watching these telethons since I was a kid and they’re no closer to finding a cure for muscular dystrophy than they were 20 yrs ago. Why? I don’t know. Jerry Lewis puts in a great effort. Yet even though he can buy wheelchairs for more kids, they’re still not living long lives (or getting cured). Obviously, money doesn’t solve everything. Imagine all that can be done for hearts, lungs, and livers. But no one can fix a faulty pancreas! What gives? AIDS was "recognized" in 1981. In my opinion, a lot has been done for that disease. Why? Pressure! Diabetics don’t fight like people with AIDS do. We don’t have activist groups or anything of the sort. We’re a very passive group. I think part of the reason is because as a Type 1 diagnosed at 12, I was pretty much told (by medical personnel) to shut up (if I "complained" I was letting it "control me"), do what I’m supposed to do, and live with it. So, I shut up. But since I never dealt with how I was feeling (if women with breast cancer can be angry, why couldn’t I?), I’ve had to back track as an adult and help myself sort thru the self-esteem, shame, etc issues I was not "allowed" to feel as a young person. Maybe some of you can relate to what I just said. But, the fact is, pumps and better insulins are only a band-aid on a gaping wound. The ADA likes to say, "Cure in 5 years!" to keep the money rolling in. It breaks my heart when I think of small diabetic children hearing that and getting hopeful. I’ve heard it for 20 yrs and some of you have probably heard it for 50 yrs. –Jennifer
Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year. Diabetes research has been going on since the discovery of insulin, and there no closer now than when they first started! Each year small improvements are made in the treatment of diabetes and it’s complications, but nothing for a cure. I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue.
The sum of money is in the billions not millions. (8-) If you figure how many of the people are working on diabetes have it, you might have problems with hiding the "secrets". Being born has a 100 percent long term mortality rate. Art Schor – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year. Diabetes research has been going on since the discovery of insulin, and there no closer now than when they first started! Each year small improvements are made in the treatment of diabetes and it’s complications, but nothing for a cure. I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue.
I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue.
I’ve thought about this same thing myself and posted a similar question to the group. It is probably the same situation with cancer, AIDS, or Alzheimers. Think not only of the sales of supplies, but the effect on the world economy in general if whole wings of medical centers or highly-funded research labs became obsolete. The political system would also be bankrupt because politicians would no longer have a meal ticket from those groups which lobby most actively in Congress. My thought was that if anyone has come out with a cure, that person or persons couldn’t be allowed to live and has probably disappeared without a trace, all their research and notes destroyed, their work most likely discredited in the professional community, their friends and family either bought or threatened into silence and they are probably lying in an unmarked grave somewhere in the Mohave. Forgive me, just the x-phile in me coming out. — E. Crystal Cornell "No Black woman can become an intellectual without decolonizing her mind." — bell hooks / * / * / * / * "You must sit in the center of the fire of your own being until the truth burns clear." — Unknown
I agree totally with your assessment. I’ve been doing about 8 hours of research a day trying to find a CURE for my husband’s NIDDM, but I’m having to wade through all kinds of junk about drugs and more drugs that seem to be the only things being promoted. When we went to the Endocrinologist, he didn’t even know that diabetics need zinc. I thought that was elementary. He doesn’t use ANY supplementation. The things that look promising to me so far are bovine collagen as is found in the product Calorad and also red beans and the water from boiling them. We are controlling his B/P perfectly now with eggplant water (it had been 237/128) and he was on Zestril 40 mg. (20 is maximum dosage) and Norvasc. Now he is off all that as well as Zoloft for the depression caused by the B/P meds and the Naproxin for arthritis caused by the Zoloft. Anyway, I’m looking for a simple CURE for this diabetes. His sugar is 320 and rising with perfect diet, walking, and 8 mg. of Amaryl that he has been on for less than one week. For some reason, his sugar just jumped up 120 points over the usual. So, we went to an Endocrinologist and he was put on the medication and taken off all his supplements which included DHEA, Progesterone cream, Pregnenolone, Zinc, Calcium and Magnesium, and Chromium and Vanadium. His program was good actually, but he had been without the supplements while on a PGA golf trip for 9 days and came home out of control. I’m sure he was eating all the wrong things too. Anyone able to contribute any research into a natural remedy? Merry
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Diabetics, A few years ago it dawned on me the massive amount of money that diabetes rakes in each year. Diabetes research has been going on since the discovery of insulin, and there no closer now than when they first started! Each year small improvements are made in the treatment of diabetes and it’s complications, but nothing for a cure. I’ve often wondered if someone could be sitting on a cure. Thousands of people would be out of work if a cure was published tomorrow. Millions of $$ in sales of needles, test strips, lancets, meters, etc. would be lost….. I’m curious to know your thoughts regarding this issue.
Randy, I agree with you. The Jerry Lewis MDA Telethon is going on this weekend. They usually take in over $40 million from the telethon and probably more throughout the year. I’ve been watching these telethons since I was a kid and they’re no closer to finding a cure for muscular dystrophy than they were 20 yrs ago. Why? I don’t know. Jerry Lewis puts in a great effort. Yet even though he can buy wheelchairs for more kids, they’re still not living long lives (or getting cured). Obviously, money doesn’t solve everything. Imagine all that can be done for hearts, lungs, and livers. But no one can fix a faulty pancreas! What gives? AIDS was "recognized" in 1981. In my opinion, a lot has been done for that disease. Why? Pressure! Diabetics don’t fight like people with AIDS do. We don’t have activist groups or anything of the sort. We’re a very passive group. I think part of the reason is because as a Type 1 diagnosed at 12, I was pretty much told (by medical personnel) to shut up (if I "complained" I was letting it "control me"), do what I’m supposed to do, and live with it. So, I shut up. But since I never dealt with how I was feeling (if women with breast cancer can be angry, why couldn’t I?), I’ve had to back track as an adult and help myself sort thru the self-esteem, shame, etc issues I was not "allowed" to feel as a young person. Maybe some of you can relate to what I just said. But, the fact is, pumps and better insulins are only a band-aid on a gaping wound. The ADA likes to say, "Cure in 5 years!" to keep the money rolling in. It breaks my heart when I think of small diabetic children hearing that and getting hopeful. I’ve heard it for 20 yrs and some of you have probably heard it for 50 yrs. –Jennifer
I understand that there is a multi-decade wait list for Masters passes, and that most ticket holders have had privileges for many years. So whenever I watch the tournament I wonder, how do all the youngish people in the gallery get in? I hear that the tournament guards their ticket list carefully and if they hear of reselling of tickets the person is dropped from the list. I assume scalping is therefore at a minimum. Therefore I wonder how all these 20 and 30-somethings get in. Any ideas? Keith
Some Companies buy the tickets in bulk, and then give them out to anyone in the company who wants them. A few years ago I got to go because my friends company did this. brian
: I understand that there is a multi-decade wait list for Masters : passes, and that most ticket holders have had privileges for many : years. So whenever I watch the tournament I wonder, how do all the : youngish people in the gallery get in? I hear that the tournament : guards their ticket list carefully and if they hear of reselling of : tickets the person is dropped from the list. I assume scalping is : therefore at a minimum. Therefore I wonder how all these 20 and : 30-somethings get in. Any ideas? : Keith — "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them".
the reason why is that the owners of the tickets do scalp them out and I have never of anyone losing their privileges by doing this. There is no way that the masters do not know that this is done and in a way they are condoning it. the masters is only for the elite who can shell out the money for these tickets thus the Joe blows of the world and the majority of the golfers will never get to witness the masters in person.
Their Parents or grandparents give them the tickets to use..many people will go in for the morning and then leave and another group will go in the afternoon..on the same ticket…
the reason why is that the owners of the tickets do scalp them out and I have never of anyone losing their privileges by doing this. There is no way that the masters do not know that this is done and in a way they are condoning it. the masters is only for the elite who can shell out the money for these tickets thus the Joe blows of the world and the majority of the golfers will never get to witness the masters in person.
If you can shoot 36 holes of golf in one day at around 10 over par, then you can pass your playing ability test to become a PGA Golf Professional. Then, if you can make it through several week-long seminars or "schools" over the course of about 2 or 3 years, you will earn your Class A PGA Membership. Anyone with a Class A PGA Membership may walk up to the Will Call booth, show their Membership card and a picture ID and walk right into the Master’s (with their spouse), all 4 days plus the practice rounds — No Charge! (Hopefully, I will be walking in the gates of Augusta National for the ‘99 Masters with my spouse — if she can finish up her last round of PGA Schools this year!) I believe there is a similar deal for Head Greenskeepers or Course Superintendents. — Barry Smith
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dan Fries wrote in article Back in the war years(early 40s)the cubs had a one armed outfielder named Pete Gray.He didnt hit 300 but he played every day. Dan
And Monte Stratton came back to pitch in MLB again after losing a leg. More or less in the same era as Pete Gray, IIRC.
[...] Has Jim Abbott diminished the achievements of Sandy Kofax or Cy Young? He would have never been able to play professional baseball without the designated hitter. Actually, had Abbott been an excellent pitcher during the non-DH days, he probably would have still pitched. He would likely have done only slightly less well than the typical .100 & change pitcher’s batting average hitting one-handed. Note that Jim didn’t need a cart or designated fielder to assist him in his efforts to compete in the Bigs despite a disability.
[...] — Don
Back in the war years(early 40s)the cubs had a one armed outfielder named Pete Gray.He didnt hit 300 but he played every day. Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What does it say about "their" acheivements, when the truth of the matter is, hell, how hard can tournament golf at the highest level be if even a fat guy like Craig Stadler can play? [No offense to Mr. Stadler intended] What does it say about "their" acheivements, when the truth of the matter is, hell, how hard can tournament golf at the highest level be if even a drunk like John Daly can play? [No offense to Mr. Daly intended] Tournament PGA golf IS hard. Only about 10% of the PROs are capable of competing with touring PROs even occasionally. The amatuers capable of that are in the fractional percentage range approaching nil. I suspect that Stadler & Daly could have done even better with better training & living habits but getting to touring level and staying there is tough. Has Jim Abbott diminished the achievements of Sandy Kofax or Cy Young? He would have never been able to play professional baseball without the designated hitter. Actually, had Abbott been an excellent pitcher during the non-DH days, he probably would have still pitched. He would likely have done only slightly less well than the typical .100 & change pitcher’s batting average hitting one-handed. Note that Jim didn’t need a cart or designated fielder to assist him in his efforts to compete in the Bigs despite a disability.
What does it say about "their" acheivements, when the truth of the matter is, hell, how hard can tournament golf at the highest level be if even a fat guy like Craig Stadler can play? [No offense to Mr. Stadler intended] What does it say about "their" acheivements, when the truth of the matter is, hell, how hard can tournament golf at the highest level be if even a drunk like John Daly can play? [No offense to Mr. Daly intended]
Tournament PGA golf IS hard. Only about 10% of the PROs are capable of competing with touring PROs even occasionally. The amatuers capable of that are in the fractional percentage range approaching nil. I suspect that Stadler & Daly could have done even better with better training & living habits but getting to touring level and staying there is tough. Has Jim Abbott diminished the achievements of Sandy Kofax or Cy Young? He would have never been able to play professional baseball without the designated hitter.
Actually, had Abbott been an excellent pitcher during the non-DH days, he probably would have still pitched. He would likely have done only slightly less well than the typical .100 & change pitcher’s batting average hitting one-handed. Note that Jim didn’t need a cart or designated fielder to assist him in his efforts to compete in the Bigs despite a disability.
Has Jim Abbott diminished the achievements of Sandy Kofax or Cy Young? He would have never been able to play professional baseball without the designated hitter. Now there’s an analogy.
And a good one. I had thought about Abbott but forgot why he’s a perfect comparison. Gary
– Matt Kanning Houston, TX 1. Is riding a cart an advantage or disadvantage? I believe Pros would tell you walking keeps them loose and focussed and helps them to play better. Most would, yes. Some wouldn’t. The issue isn’t whether one or the other is an advantage. The issue is they’re not the same, and that sports is about all players playing the same game under the same conditions. No sport in history has applied different rules to different players.
I thought the NFL has rules in the degree you can "tackle" a quarterback versus everyone else. Matt Kanning
Great post, Randy. Couldn’t agree more. You can count the number of pros who are not in top physical condition on one hand. But if you think that stamina and endurance doesn’t play a role in top-level competition, why would Tom Lehman, ranked #1 in the world for a time in ‘97, work to lose 30 pounds in the off-season?
To this I would add the case of David Duval. For two years, it was obvious he had the game to be a big star, but something was lacking. He had nothing but runner-up finishes and top 10s. No victories. People questioned his resolve. … shit, even I said he just didn’t have what it takes on this very newsgroup. Then in ‘97 he drops something like 30 pounds. Boom — at the end of the year, he wins three straight times and is now considered one of players that are the future of golf. I think Duval started winning because, after 72 holes, he was tired on Sundays. It wasn’t because he lacked the mental toughness, the experience or things were going unlucky for him. It was just by Sunday, he lacked the little bit extra in the gas tank to push himself over the top. Similarily, or along the same lines, look at Phil Mickelson and Colin Montgomerie — two men who must be mentioned when talking about the very best 10 players or so in the world. Both have a little extra padding in the paunch. Monty’s dropped a tremendous amount of weight over the last year or so and Mickelson is looking particularly svelte this year … But who are those two players? The two best players in the world who have yet to win a major.
Furthermore, what does it say about the masterful accomplishments of the heroes of the game–the Bob Joneses, the Ben Hogans, the Arnold Palmers, the Jack Nickauses–what does it say of their achievements when the truth of the matter is, hell, how hard can tournament golf at the highest level be if even cripples can play? The bar has been lowered. Randy
What does it say about "their" acheivements, when the truth of the matter is, hell, how hard can tournament golf at the highest level be if even a fat guy like Craig Stadler can play? [No offense to Mr. Stadler intended] What does it say about "their" acheivements, when the truth of the matter is, hell, how hard can tournament golf at the highest level be if even a drunk like John Daly can play? [No offense to Mr. Daly intended] What does it say about "their" acheivements, when the truth of the matter is, hell, how hard can tournament golf at the highest level be if even a guy like [pick one] can play with a cigarette or a big honkin’ cigar hangin’ out of his mouth? Has Jim Abbott diminished the achievements of Sandy Kofax or Cy Young? He would have never been able to play professional baseball without the designated hitter. Now there’s an analogy. JIM — *** Jim Preston ** *** *** ALCATEL NETWORK SYSTEMS ** THIS SPACE AVAILABLE *** *** (919)850-6594 ** call the number on your *** *** ** *** *** <insert standard disclaimer here… and stand back! ***
The REAL athleticism of golf is HITTING the ball! Somebody once said that the single most difficult feat in athletics is hitting a baseball. And so many baseball hitters love golf, and struggle for years, trying to learn how to perfectly strike that little white, stationary ball, never perfecting the skill.
Sam Snead’s response to that was that in golf, you have to hit your foul balls. I almost fell out of my chair when I read this. The "imminent danger of golf carts" argument? The PGA would surely have won the case if they had presented that one (or did they?). Good thing you were "very careful not to run someone over." Many golf cart accidents occur every year (usually associated with alcohol or reckless driving on slopes where they are not supposed to be driven), but are you now honestly worried that the pros (caddies, I mean) are going to be crashing into people into galleries on a regular basis? Please.
Martin rode his cart in the first two Nike events without any mishaps. I guess he was lucky. I don’t think there is any danger of an accident, unless, of course, you notice a cooler on Martin’s cart.(G) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Casey’s fault, right? If a person professes loves a sport, and he knows petitioning to play will polarize the sports community = damaging "the game he CLAIMS to love. [i.e. he must not love the game]". Furthermore, what does it say about the masterful accomplishments of the heroes of the game–the Bob Joneses, the Ben Hogans, the Arnold Palmers, the Jack Nickauses–what does it say of their achievements when the truth of the matter is, hell, how hard can tournament golf at the highest level be if even cripples can play? The bar has been lowered. Randy I never completely understood where you were coming from, but now I do. You have finally identified what it is about this ruling that sticks in your craw. You feel it will somehow "diminish" the accomplishments of these great athletes, if a "cripple", this less than whole human being, can play with them. Why does this diminish ANYTHING? Why would this bother you so much? What separates Jack Nicklaus from this "cripple"? Nothing if they can get the same score on a course.
Perhaps you have nailed the problem exactly. Perhaps those who complain the most about Martin are concerned about the image. That’s why we see a term like cripple when talking about Martin, something of poor taste.
If no evidence was presented, then you have no basis for making any conclusion about Martin’s heart rate, blood pressure, or other physiological parameters. His disability is a circulation problem which would affect each of these to some extent. You are making unsupported statements.
Actually, there was an expert witness testifying at the trial. He was a professor from the University of Oregon. I don’t recall exactly what he said, but he testified in support of Martin. Gary
Which of your own arguments do you believe? 1. Is riding a cart an advantage or disadvantage? I believe Pros would tell you walking keeps them loose and focussed and helps them to play better. Most would, yes. Some wouldn’t. The issue isn’t whether one or the other is an advantage. The issue is they’re not the same, and that sports is about all players playing the same game under the same conditions. No sport in history has applied different rules to different players.
WHAT???? Most would, huh? I’d assume most pros would know what’s an advantage vs disadvantage to them. You have REPEATEDLY stated in this and many posts that riding in the cart is an advantage (physiologic changes, blah blah, PGA should’ve presented medical evidence, more blah, blah), yet you state here that most Pros feel that walking "keeps them loose and focused and helps them to play better." I’d like to pin this issue down right here. WHAT do you personally believe? Do you believe that using a cart would be an advantage, OR not? I’m starting to get the impression that you’re arguing two contradictory viewpoints to win an argument. << lots snipped I’ve said all along that the fairest way to accomodate Casey is to put everyone on a cart. Not give everyone the option to ride, but require it. That way, everyone’s tested under the same conditions, and Casey gets his accomodation. (Of course, some would say the Casey’s still at a disadvantage so he should get more, or everyone else should get less. But THAT would be about giving someone a head start in the race, and that’s BS.) The problem is, if everyone rides, where does that leave the sport? What little athleticism is involved has then been legislated out of the sport.
"What little athleticism is involved has then been legislated out of the sport?" What the heck are you saying now? WHO is the person with no respect for golf as an athletic endeavor? Sounds like YOU. The REAL athleticism of golf is HITTING the ball! Somebody once said that the single most difficult feat in athletics is hitting a baseball. And so many baseball hitters love golf, and struggle for years, trying to learn how to perfectly strike that little white, stationary ball, never perfecting the skill. << lots snipped A wheel chair on a basketball court would be dangerious, a golf cart on a golf course is not. When you have to drive it through galleries of 100,000 people, it most certainly would be dangerous. I drive carts on Fridays every week at TOUR events, and every time I do, I have to be very careful not to run someone over. We’ve had numerous near-mishaps. Thank God no accidents yet.
I almost fell out of my chair when I read this. The "imminent danger of golf carts" argument? The PGA would surely have won the case if they had presented that one (or did they?). Good thing you were "very careful not to run someone over." Many golf cart accidents occur every year (usually associated with alcohol or reckless driving on slopes where they are not supposed to be driven), but are you now honestly worried that the pros (caddies, I mean) are going to be crashing into people into galleries on a regular basis? Please. 6. This is a fairness issue. Would it be fair to deny a job to someone because their wheel chair can’t make it between the desks or through a doorway? No. Move the desks and widen the doorway. Again, I agree with this premise. But the width of the doorway in the workplace (or the height of the commode, or the ramp at the front door, etc.) does not effect how people perform their jobs. More to the point, it doesn’t give your business a competitive advantage over your competitors across town.
(see item 1.) You WROTE most pros wouldn’t use the carts because they play better without them. What advantage are you talking about?<< lots snipped 7. I know this is not a black and white topic. It has many shades of gray and is polarizing the golf community. Which is another indication of how Casey has damaged the game he claims to love.
Casey’s fault, right? If a person professes loves a sport, and he knows petitioning to play will polarize the sports community = damaging "the game he CLAIMS to love. [i.e. he must not love the game]". Jackie Robinson professed to love baseball, and he knew trying to play would polarize the baseball community = damaging "the game he CLAIMS to love. [i.e. he must not love the game]". Am I twisting your words here? If so, what subtle nuance did I miss? << lots snipped Furthermore, what does it say about the masterful accomplishments of the heroes of the game–the Bob Joneses, the Ben Hogans, the Arnold Palmers, the Jack Nickauses–what does it say of their achievements when the truth of the matter is, hell, how hard can tournament golf at the highest level be if even cripples can play? The bar has been lowered. Randy
I never completely understood where you were coming from, but now I do. You have finally identified what it is about this ruling that sticks in your craw. You feel it will somehow "diminish" the accomplishments of these great athletes, if a "cripple", this less than whole human being, can play with them. Why does this diminish ANYTHING? Why would this bother you so much? What separates Jack Nicklaus from this "cripple"? Nothing if they can get the same score on a course. I LEAVE YOU WITH A HYPOTHETICAL: If Casey Martin could hit 500 yard drives, and put the ball within 3 feet of the cup with his tee-shot every time, would you say: "He’s not the best golfer in the world. He can’t even f***ing walk…" If he needs assistance to get to the green, then he’s not the best. Hell, he’s not even as good as I am, because I can walk! (I’m an "ath-uh-leet"). He’s a "cuh-rip-pul." ? Would you consider him the greatest golfer in the world? OR a long driving freak "cripple" who should never make the pros? Please answer honestly. -Duk
But to suggest that Casey’s level of heart rate, breathing, etc. would be the same as a player who just climbed a 50-foot hill on the 9th hole at Westchester is simply wrong. Unfortunately, no evidence was presented to prove it. If no evidence was presented, then you have no basis for making any conclusion about Martin’s heart rate, blood pressure, or other physiological parameters.
I forgot. Mr. Martin, the bionic man, has no heart, therefore his heart rate would not increase through physical exertion as it does with the rest of us. How silly of me to have overlooked the obvious. Randy
That’s not quite true. The judge didn’t say that walking was not essential to competition, which is why he said the rest of the field must walk. All he said was that Casey’s level of fatigue would be no less than the other players. Since the TOUR’s legal strategy was to not make Casey an issue in the case, stating "this isn’t about Casey Martin, it’s about principle," they didn’t offer any evidence to suggest that *he* would have an advantage riding. The strategy backfired. But to suggest that Casey’s level of heart rate, breathing, etc. would be the same as a player who just climbed a 50-foot hill on the 9th hole at Westchester is simply wrong. Unfortunately, no evidence was presented to prove it.
If no evidence was presented, then you have no basis for making any conclusion about Martin’s heart rate, blood pressure, or other physiological parameters. His disability is a circulation problem which would affect each of these to some extent. You are making unsupported statements. B. Martin
1. Is riding a cart an advantage or disadvantage? I believe Pros would tell you walking keeps them loose and focussed and helps them to play better.
Most would, yes. Some wouldn’t. The issue isn’t whether one or the other is an advantage. The issue is they’re not the same, and that sports is about all players playing the same game under the same conditions. No sport in history has applied different rules to different players. 2. Would any Pro trade a good leg for Casey’s so he could ride in tournaments? No.
Of course not. 3. Is walking and stamina really an essential part of the game? This is the main issue the judge ruled on. He ruled the act of walking between shots and holes is not essential to competition. I agree with him.
That’s not quite true. The judge didn’t say that walking was not essential to competition, which is why he said the rest of the field must walk. All he said was that Casey’s level of fatigue would be no less than the other players. Since the TOUR’s legal strategy was to not make Casey an issue in the case, stating "this isn’t about Casey Martin, it’s about principle," they didn’t offer any evidence to suggest that *he* would have an advantage riding. The strategy backfired. But to suggest that Casey’s level of heart rate, breathing, etc. would be the same as a player who just climbed a 50-foot hill on the 9th hole at Westchester is simply wrong. Unfortunately, no evidence was presented to prove it. At the US Open in Oakmont (high 90’s and humid) I saw a Pro drop out after less than 9 holes because he was fat, and out of shape.
You can count the number of pros who are not in top physical condition on one hand. But if you think that stamina and endurance doesn’t play a role in top-level competition, why would Tom Lehman, ranked #1 in the world for a time in ‘97, work to lose 30 pounds in the off-season? IV. Yes, walking can be a factor, but not always and not enough to win the case for the PGA.
Given that they presented no medical evidence to support their theory, I’d have to agree. But to suggest that medical evidence doesn’t exist to prove that such factors as heart rate, breathing, etc. don’t effect performance is ignorant. It does. And the fact that one player will have less cariovascular stress than the rest of the field gives him an advantage. The TOUR could have presented evidence to support that notion, and inexplicably, they opted not to. Instead they counted on testimony by Ken Venturi and others to assert that walking takes its toll. They’re right, but had The TOUR presented medical evidence, the argument would have been stronger. (Would it have been enough to win the case? Maybe not, but we’ll never know.) 4. Do some players on the Tour get special treatment? Think about it. The fact Greg Norman can take his helocopter from the clubhouse directly to his home without having to put up with congested highways is an advantage. The fact Tiger, Palmer, ChiChi, and many others can take private jets to and from tournaments without the strain of "commercial" air traffic is an advantage. The fact certain top golfers get endorsement money that guarantees them a great living is an advantage. The special treatment some golfers get from manufacturers is an advantage. The special perks at tournaments top golfers get is an advantage.
The difference is that none of these examples pertains to activities ON THE FIELD OF PLAY DURING COMPETITION. And I suppose, in many ways, the arguments both pro- and con- Casey riding, fall into two catagories: those who feel SPORTS should be fair by applying the same rules to all contestants, and those who feel LIFE should be fair by giving some people a hand to allow them to compete. Since we all know LIFE ISN’T FAIR, some are trying to impose their would-be values on sport. Having a top caddy on your bag is an advantage.
And they all have a price. You want to hire Tony Martinez from Greg Norman? Make him an offer he can’t refuse. Having top coaches, physical trainers, and sports shrinks on your staff is an advantage.
And none of them are exclusive to one player. You want David Ledbetter as your coach? He’s available for a price. 5. IMHO the game of golf comes down to how many times you strike the regulation ball with regulations clubs following the USGA regulations.
Sorry, but the PGA TOUR is not a USGA event. The Rules of Golf only apply insofar as the actual advancing of the ball. The Rules of Golf were written for amateur golf. That it is used as a guideline in professional golf simply means that pro leagues can alter them however they wish. Did you complain when the goal posts were narrower in the NFL than they were in NCAA? It’s the same exact thing. Pro sports don’t play by the same rules as amateur sports. Never have, never will. And on the pro golf circuit, they walk. If Casey Martin had never been born and the pros had started riding carts, would you feel as if they had raised the bar, lowered the bar, or left the bar where it was? If a player can compete at the top level but due to an undeniable physical disability needs assistance to get between the shots he should be given that assistance.
As I said before, the essence of our difference of opinion is that most pro-Casey advocates believe that pro sports is a "right," and that all who possess the raw talent should be allowed to perform on the stage. Those of us on the other side believe that the core value of sport is that all competitors are tested under the same rules and condititions, regardless of their ability or disability. The way a golfer gets from shot to shot is not essential.
If you believe that, I challenge you to an experiment: Take your putter and putt to a spot (maybe use a drinking glass as a "hole," or just a mark on the wall) on the linoleum floor of your kitchen. Practice a few times until you get the hang of it. That’s very close to the speed of some of the greens used on the PGA TOUR. Now, walk up and down the stairs of your house or outside your apartment a few times to approximate the effort extended in walking up a 50-foot slope. Now, give yourself a minute to catch your breath and try the putt in your kitchen again. You’ll find that your hands aren’t quite as steady. You may be in great shape and there’ll be very little difference, but ANY difference which could make you miss on that demanding putting surface can mean the difference of a couple hundred thousand dollars THIS WEEK. Or could mean the difference between making the cut and missing the cut. Fair’s fair, but only when what’s fair for one is fair for all. I’ve said all along that the fairest way to accomodate Casey is to put everyone on a cart. Not give everyone the option to ride, but require it. That way, everyone’s tested under the same conditions, and Casey gets his accomodation. (Of course, some would say the Casey’s still at a disadvantage so he should get more, or everyone else should get less. But THAT would be about giving someone a head start in the race, and that’s BS.) The problem is, if everyone rides, where does that leave the sport? What little athleticism is involved has then been legislated out of the sport. The ability to run the bases is essential to the game of baseball. The ability to run up and down the court is essential to the game of basketball. The ability to walk from tee to tee shot is not essential.
The SIZE of a football is not essential to how the game of football is played. If a young man has extraordinarily small hands and can’t grip a regulation-size football, but can throw and run and read defenses, should he have the right ro require the NFL to "accomodate" him by allowing him to use a smaller ball? (Though I don’t possess the skills of a Dan Marino, this is actually true of me. I have very small hands and have difficulty gripping a regulation-size football. But give me one of those "junior-size" footballs, and I can lay it in with the best of ‘em.) His golf cart on cart paths or in fairways will not affect how his competitors play their game.
It will if players are forced to take a drop out of a tire track. (And if it happens more than a time or two, it’ll slow play down to a crawl, which will affect everyone’s pace of play.) A wheel chair on a basketball court would be dangerious, a golf cart on a golf course is not.
When you have to drive it through galleries of 100,000 people, it most certainly would be dangerous. I drive carts on Fridays every week at TOUR events, and every time I do, I have to be very careful not to run someone over. We’ve had numerous near-mishaps. Thank God no accidents yet. 6. This is a fairness issue. Would it be fair to deny a job to someone because their wheel chair can’t make it between the desks or through a doorway? No. Move the desks and widen the doorway.
Again, I agree with this premise. But the width of the doorway in the workplace (or the height of the commode, or the ramp at the front door, etc.) does not effect how people perform their jobs. More to the point, it doesn’t give your business a competitive advantage over your competitors across town. In sports, there’s a difference. Everyone is playing the same game, by the same rules, under the same conditions. They were until now. If a person is qualified and can compete, make resonable concessions and give them a chance.
Once you’ve started down this road, where does it lead? What about my "small hands" argument? A "disability" doesn’t have to be crippling. It is merely a condition which prevents someone from doing what others do. What about blind people being officials at football games? That wouldn’t prevent them from doing the same job as everyone else! (That was a joke. I couldn’t help myself.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 7. I
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1. Is riding a cart an advantage or disadvantage? I believe Pros would tell you walking keeps them loose and focussed and helps them to play better…….
Many good points. I guess that I have about $0.02 left on this, despite the fact that it is a very important issue. 1. This is not about Casey Martin, it is about carts. I, like many posters to this group HATE carts. Golfing was far more enjoyable before the convoys of drunks driving carts up your ass made golfing into some sort of time trial. One old guy said it best, "If you’re in a hurry, you should’nt be on a golf course". I especially hate the fact that drunks in carts won’t let you play through while they take 3-4 mulligans per shot and spend several minute each, each shot, looking for lost balls in the middle of the fairway, following 120 yard "drives". 2. The PGA and PGA tour through their management of their courses do more to promote cart use than anyone else. The tour especially has no credibility on the issue. 3. Some of my colleagues are always telling my students what they can and cannot due based on some assesment of their abilities. I HATE this. We live in a society that has enormous opportunity, but enormous competition. Young people especially need to be encouraged to TRY, and Casey Martin is one of the best examples of "you can’t succeed if you don’t try, you can only succeed if you do try". Most people are losers because they don’t play the game for fear of losing, which is the essence of stupidity! Such losers are always taking shots at people who do try and succeed to sooth themselves for not only failing, but failing to try…." I could have made the effort, but…….and look what happened to him/her", or "he/she didn’t really succeed through their own effort, he/she was given the success via some connection or special consideration, which I don’t have, and that’s why I didn’t try." When I hear any aspect of this type of rhetoric, I know I am talking to a LOSER. 4. The success of the PGA tour is based on the response of the public to it, not the rules. Martin was an excellent opportunity for the tour to make a substantial positive impact in a highly competitive sports entertainment market. If you disagree, consider the following: if some terrorist nuked the US open and killed all the best golfers in the world, but the fan base remained loyal to the tour, the tour would survive. However if you lost the fan base (due to idiotic PR like that of Finchem) but had the greatest tournaments in history, 5 or 6 golfers head to head birdie after birdie all the way, the tour would die. No fan base, no tour. The bigger the fan base, the bigger the tour. It is a business, and the business is sports entertainment, not golf. 5. The judicial system arbitrates disputes between individuals in a free and peaceful society, SOme people don’t like this, indicating they don’t like freedom AND peace. If we dictate "rules", who does the dictating? If you want wide open "freedom, go to Russia, where the judicial system is too weak to either arbitrate or enforce decisions. The tour, and many golfers, including me, have a burr up their ass about carts. However, to take this out on Casey Martin is idiotic. Cart use is fully sanctioned and often ENFORCED by the PGA tour. Carts are a part of the game of golf, period. For the PGA tour to split hairs and attack someone like Casey Martin the way they have is absolutely unacceptable. I, if only one, will not watch a PGA tour event on television while Finchem and his hypocritical, irresponsible, elitist rednecks are running the show. I would rather be golfing! Well, I guess I got about $2.00 in, but I always overspend when it comes to golf! (My wife HAS complained!)
1. Is riding a cart an advantage or disadvantage? I believe Pros would tell you walking keeps them loose and focussed and helps them to play better. 2. Would any Pro trade a good leg for Casey’s so he could ride in tournaments? No. 3. Is walking and stamina really an essential part of the game? This is the main issue the judge ruled on. He ruled the act of walking between shots and holes is not essential to competition. I agree with him. I also acknowledge at time walking and stamina can be a factor. At the US Open in Oakmont (high 90’s and humid) I saw a Pro drop out after less than 9 holes because he was fat, and out of shape. I saw Monty play the first round nearly in heat exhaustion and have to go to the medical trailer afterwards to get fluids by IV. Yes, walking can be a factor, but not always and not enough to win the case for the PGA. 4. Do some players on the Tour get special treatment? Think about it. The fact Greg Norman can take his helocopter from the clubhouse directly to his home without having to put up with congested highways is an advantage. The fact Tiger, Palmer, ChiChi, and many others can take private jets to and from tournaments without the strain of "commercial" air traffic is an advantage. The fact certain top golfers get endorsement money that guarantees them a great living is an advantage. The special treatment some golfers get from manufacturers is an advantage. The special perks at tournaments top golfers get is an advantage. Having a top caddy on your bag is an advantage. Having top coaches, physical trainers, and sports shrinks on your staff is an advantage. 5. IMHO the game of golf comes down to how many times you strike the regulation ball with regulations clubs following the USGA regulations. If a player can compete at the top level but due to an undeniable physical disability needs assistance to get between the shots he should be given that assistance. The way a golfer gets from shot to shot is not essential. The ability to run the bases is essential to the game of baseball. The ability to run up and down the court is essential to the game of basketball. The ability to walk from tee to tee shot is not essential. His golf cart on cart paths or in fairways will not affect how his competitors play their game. A wheel chair on a basketball court would be dangerious, a golf cart on a golf course is not. 6. This is a fairness issue. Would it be fair to deny a job to someone because their wheel chair can’t make it between the desks or through a doorway? No. Move the desks and widen the doorway. If a person is qualified and can compete, make resonable concessions and give them a chance. 7. I know this is not a black and white topic. It has many shades of gray and is polarizing the golf community. Isn’t it wonderful however that the only hot topic within our sport doesn’t deal with a player choking a coach, testing positive for drugs, getting arrested for rape or spousal abuse. The hot topic du jour (and I’m glad it’s no longer Tiger) is whether a crippled man who with a short time will probably have one of his legs amputated should be allowed to pursue his dream of competing on the PGA Tour. I believe the only thing that should determine whether Casey should be able to compete on the Tour is the number of times he strikes the ball in tournament competition.