Question:

The hardest thing about a 200 yds approach is controlling the distance.

This reminds me of a passage in one of my favorite Greg Norman interviews: (http://www.golfonline.com/tours/1997/pga/features/pepergreg1.html)   Yeah. I learned that on that day, when I thought I had control   of my swing, I didn’t — it was a gradual breakdown. Although   I didn’t sense it at the time, the first clue came at the tee of   the fourth hole. I thought I’d selected the correct club — a   4-iron — and my swing felt just fine. But then the ball came up   12 feet short, in the bunker. When a player of my caliber misses   his distance by 12 feet, something’s wrong. My timing had gone   off, and I didn’t realize it. Someday I hope to be of a "caliber" such that something’s wrong when I miss my 4-iron distance by 12 feet. Sheesh!         -joseph

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I would agree, 4.75 for a par 4 is tough.  I think the problem faced by the USGA on these holes is that many of these classic old courses have 2 short, member reachable par 5s (though I note not reacheable by me, damn it!), in the 500 yard range.  They also have two long par fives.  The problem is what to do with the short par 5s.  Since par for a hole cannot be declared at 4.5, they have a choice of setting it up as either a short easy par 5 or a long tough par 4.  I like the choice of the harder hole for our national championship, but I would admit that it is not ideal.  It does smack as lying about the course, but I also have not seen a 4par yet where a majority of the field was forced to hit 3w into the green.  I have to do that on 440 yard holes, so I have little sympathy for the tour pros.  Anyway, It would be very interesting if someone who knows where to find it can find the hole-by-hole scoring avgs. for the championship and post it here.  Thanks. Don. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Sounds like a par 4 to me!  What does it mean when half the field birdies a hole?  The par is to high — that is what it means to me. And what does it mean when a "par-4" plays to a 4.75? It means a par-5 to me. And at least one of their "par-4" holes did. (I don’t remember, but I bet the other did, too.) I don’t mind the USGA MAKING a course harder to "protect par". I do mind them DEFINING a course harder by lying about it. Cheers! Dave

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list) posted the following to the USGA Handicap Discussion Group in response to Rick Cahoon: Rick Cahoon posted the following in the thread in the USGA Handicap Discussion Group: Handicap questions aside, I wonder how many golfers out there agree with Mr. Pitts’ statement  that competition is all about "break(ing) their necks for them"? Competition might be about winning, but I think most of us can live without the win-at-any-cost sort of attitude that

I’ve been following this thread with mild interest, and some boredom for the last few days – but now somehow I feel the need to jump in. I don’t think that Ken was saying that he wanted to "win at any cost" rather he wanted to play his hardest, focus on making every putt, hitting every fairway etc.  I’ve played with Ken a few times (once in a tournament that he won) – and as far as I can tell he plays by the rules – all the rules.  I also know that he refused to participate (continue to compete in a tournament) with a partner as soon as he determined that his partner intended to cheat (sandbag by virtue of dumping a few holes to ensure that they got into the first flight rather than the championship flight). One of the reasons I want my kids to learn this game over most of the others is that there are no umpires, that the true spirit of the game is that the player calls penalties on himself – NOT that we get away with anything as long as the ref doesn’t see it.  I learned to do anything it took to win (as long as I didn’t get caught) in basketball, hockey and football.  Its a different game, with different rules – but I hope that my kids will learn that in life, those that play by the rules, and set their own personal integrity standards high are the ones who really win in the end. On the golf course Ken Pitts is a guy who has high integrity, and plays by the rules.  In this forum he’s a guy who for some reason people just love to hate – and debate. Call me a starched shirt if you want Ken, but I hope I’m never paired with you on the  golf course.

Thats certainly your decision to make. But you’d be mising out on a opportunity to play with a fine person, and and excellent player. You could find very few people who’d be better partners than Ken Pitts. -Tim Rick Cahoon responded as follows: Even though it puts me in my place, I’m glad to see this sort of reply. I hope to teach my son the same: "those that play by the rules, and set their own personal integrity standards high are the ones who really win in the end." Perhaps we’ve all prejudged Mr. Pitts for having a fiercely competitive spirit and an admirable tournament round.

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Rick Cahoon posted the following in the thread in the USGA Handicap Discussion Group: Handicap questions aside, I wonder how many golfers out there agree with Mr. Pitts’ statement  that competition is all about "break(ing) their necks for them"? Competition might be about winning, but I think most of us can live without the win-at-any-cost sort of attitude that little gem implies. Call me a starched shirt if you want Ken, but I hope I’m never paired with you on the  golf course. Your game should be hockey. My reply: Oh, I really meant that literally. I could bore you and everyone else with a list of cliches that call on images of violence, but I won’t. If somehow you had a chance to pick me out from the 19th hole at Prestonwood during that tournament, I’d probably be the last guy you’d pick. My friends and family will tell you that I am the most gentle and generous person you’ll every meet. Hardly a  Happy Gilmore. in that round, I would have. And I might have been growling and frothing like a rabid dog. If that offends you, then you can sue me. See you in court. Otherwise, best regards. Ken.

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I was at the Open and those guys murder the ball off the tee.  I was at #3 Tee Saturday morning and those guys were unloading.  On 17 those guys were spraying balls left and right.  I saw the end of the 2nd round on 17 and guys were hitting out of the trees.  Some of them made the green because the fairway drops 30 to 40 feet in elevation over 200 yds. So these guys are hitting anywhere from 200 to 220 downhill. I wouldn’t give these guys a compensatory stroke for spraying the ball off the tee.  The guys in the rough hit low punch shots and rolled them down to the front of the green.  The fairway are the same as greens so they get a good roll down the hill.

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In most golf tournaments, competition is broken into flights. In a Calcutta, each player or team is auctioned to the highest bidder. Each flight then has some amount of money from the auction. Percentages of the money are assigned for each place in each flight. Typically whoever owns 1st place would get 50%, 2nd place 30% & 20% for 3rd place. The players are usually (by custom) given the option of buying half of the interest in their team if they did not originally buy themselves. These Calcutta events are common at member/guest tournaments at country clubs throughout the US. I’ve also heard of pocket billiard tournaments having them.  My partner and I in the tournament in question bought ourselves for $825 and got back $600 for 2nd after the first day, $1000 for winning the 2nd day and $1000 for winning the overall. I hope my decription is clear & feel free to email me for further clarification. TheReal Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please Ken, Could you please explain to me exactly what a "Calcutta" is? Many thanks. Cheers, Dave from the UK

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… Sounds like a par 4 to me!  What does it mean when half the field birdies a hole?  The par is to high — that is what it means to me.

And what does it mean when a "par-4" plays to a 4.75? It means a par-5 to me. And at least one of their "par-4" holes did. (I don’t remember, but I bet the other did, too.) I don’t mind the USGA MAKING a course harder to "protect par". I do mind them DEFINING a course harder by lying about it. Cheers! Dave

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Please Ken, Could you please explain to me exactly what a "Calcutta" is? Many thanks. Cheers, Dave from the UK

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Think about these 480 yds par 4’s like number 17 at Congressional. Certain players may have been hitting mid irons, but look at the raw numers. It takes a 280 yds tee shot to be left with 200 yds. I promise that most of the field would be hitting 4 or 3 from 200 yds. That hole was designed as a par 5. Par 5’s usually have smaller greens due to the likelihood of the player making his approach with a short iron. The hardest thing about a 200 yds approach is controlling the distance. On 17 a player could have it right on line but not quite right WRT the distance. He is then left in the heavy rough even though he could probably spit on the green from where his ball ended up. Those holes could be loosened up a little, IMVHO.   TheReal Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I strongly believe the US Open setup _identyfies_ the best golfer better than any other championship or tournament.  The penal rough means poor shots cost strokes — as it should be.   Strategy matters.  Chipping areas are used strategically for _tough_ chips.  In most PGA tour setups the lack of greenside rough just expands the size of the green allowing poor approaches to result in routine up and down pars, with an occasional chip in birdie.  To me, that is boring.  I hate it when a guy fires at a tucked pin, misses on the short side, and is left with an easy chip.  There should be a penalty for going at the flag and missing.  460 yard par fours sound right for those guys.  I leaves them 6iron into the green for god sake.   The short par 5s should be converted to par 4s, either way the holes play to an average of about 4.4 or so.  Sounds like a par 4 to me!  What does it mean when half the field birdies a hole?  The par is to high — that is what it means to me. Anyway, I just got fired up to defend the button-down, blue shirts!  I definitely respect those of you who disagree. – Don t… Latest post from Tim Schorer on USGA Handicap Discussion Group. Some people compete for fun, you compete for money, lots of it. Which gives you a great incentive to sandbag. Now apparently someone at the usga agrees and your best defense seems to be calling this person "the Oxford CLoth, Starched Collar,Button-Down, Even-Par-Worshiping, USGA Rules Wonk". My reply to that on the USGA Handicap Discussion Group. I thought we were burying the hatchet on all this, but you seem to persist. I’ll give you a day or two to calm down. My resentment toward the USGA, even though I have contributed annually for years, is caused by the seemingly wild devotion to having the Open winner come in at even par. I don’t understand how a course can be set up with many 460+ yds par 4’s where the players can’t hit driver without reservation. Then when the players are left with 200+ yds approach shots, the ankle-deep rough is hard up against the green, mere feet from the putting surface. It’s like chipping is not allowed. The players are forced to carve these short shots out  from the spinach with hard-to-predict results. What did Els finish ? (-4) ? Next year look for fairways about as wide as a parking space at your office building, greens hard as granite and just as fast, and waist-deep rough. I say send the competition committee out to play the course after it is ready. If they mostly can’t come within 20 shots of their handicap, the course is too tough. I’m not sure I could break 90 on that course and you’ve made sure the whole world knows what a sandbagger I am. Maybe I would need the right bet so that I could think I was doing a con-job on somebody. Otherwise, the USGA does a great job in conjunction with the R&A in establishing and administering the rules. What is inaccurate about my description of Mr Cardace ?  At least they aren’t wearing long sleeves and ties any more. Ken

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I strongly believe the US Open setup _identyfies_ the best golfer better than any other championship or tournament.  The penal rough means poor shots cost strokes — as it should be.   Strategy matters.  Chipping areas are used strategically for _tough_ chips.  In most PGA tour setups the lack of greenside rough just expands the size of the green allowing poor approaches to result in routine up and down pars, with an occasional chip in birdie.  To me, that is boring.  I hate it when a guy fires at a tucked pin, misses on the short side, and is left with an easy chip.  There should be a penalty for going at the flag and missing.  460 yard par fours sound right for those guys.  I leaves them 6iron into the green for god sake.   The short par 5s should be converted to par 4s, either way the holes play to an average of about 4.4 or so.  Sounds like a par 4 to me!  What does it mean when half the field birdies a hole?  The par is to high — that is what it means to me.  Anyway, I just got fired up to defend the button-down, blue shirts!  I definitely respect those of you who disagree. – Don t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Latest post from Tim Schorer on USGA Handicap Discussion Group. Some people compete for fun, you compete for money, lots of it. Which gives you a great incentive to sandbag. Now apparently someone at the usga agrees and your best defense seems to be calling this person "the Oxford CLoth, Starched Collar,Button-Down, Even-Par-Worshiping, USGA Rules Wonk". My reply to that on the USGA Handicap Discussion Group. I thought we were burying the hatchet on all this, but you seem to persist. I’ll give you a day or two to calm down. My resentment toward the USGA, even though I have contributed annually for years, is caused by the seemingly wild devotion to having the Open winner come in at even par. I don’t understand how a course can be set up with many 460+ yds par 4’s where the players can’t hit driver without reservation. Then when the players are left with 200+ yds approach shots, the ankle-deep rough is hard up against the green, mere feet from the putting surface. It’s like chipping is not allowed. The players are forced to carve these short shots out  from the spinach with hard-to-predict results. What did Els finish ? (-4) ? Next year look for fairways about as wide as a parking space at your office building, greens hard as granite and just as fast, and waist-deep rough. I say send the competition committee out to play the course after it is ready. If they mostly can’t come within 20 shots of their handicap, the course is too tough. I’m not sure I could break 90 on that course and you’ve made sure the whole world knows what a sandbagger I am. Maybe I would need the right bet so that I could think I was doing a con-job on somebody. Otherwise, the USGA does a great job in conjunction with the R&A in establishing and administering the rules. What is inaccurate about my description of Mr Cardace ?  At least they aren’t wearing long sleeves and ties any more. Ken

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I had a minus 7 last year which was no fluke.  (round of 80, index 19, rating 68)  First of all, my handicap was going down (it is a lagging indicator) since I had just resumed playing.  Second, I was on a course which was friendly to my game (trees very mature and grass growing under them–no lost balls or unplayable lies).  Third, I made two long putts on the front.  Fourth, I play my irons well and hit 8 of my back nine approaches (a couple of those were after bad tee shots and recoveries into the fairway or the like)  Finally, I played smart.  Played irons off the tee a few times; didn’t get stupid and get wet on 18. Dr. Matt

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Latest post from Tim Schorer on USGA Handicap Discussion Group. Some people compete for fun, you compete for money, lots of it. Which gives you a great incentive to sandbag. Now apparently someone at the usga agrees and your best defense seems to be calling this person "the Oxford CLoth, Starched Collar,Button-Down, Even-Par-Worshiping, USGA Rules Wonk". My reply to that on the USGA Handicap Discussion Group. I thought we were burying the hatchet on all this, but you seem to persist. I’ll give you a day or two to calm down. My resentment toward the USGA, even though I have contributed annually for years, is caused by the seemingly wild devotion to having the Open winner come in at even par. I don’t understand how a course can be set up with many 460+ yds par 4’s where the players can’t hit driver without reservation. Then when the players are left with 200+ yds approach shots, the ankle-deep rough is hard up against the green, mere feet from the putting surface. It’s like chipping is not allowed. The players are forced to carve these short shots out  from the spinach with hard-to-predict results. What did Els finish ? (-4) ? Next year look for fairways about as wide as a parking space at your office building, greens hard as granite and just as fast, and waist-deep rough. I say send the competition committee out to play the course after it is ready. If they mostly can’t come within 20 shots of their handicap, the course is too tough. I’m not sure I could break 90 on that course and you’ve made sure the whole world knows what a sandbagger I am. Maybe I would need the right bet so that I could think I was doing a con-job on somebody. Otherwise, the USGA does a great job in conjunction with the R&A in establishing and administering the rules. What is inaccurate about my description of Mr Cardace ?  At least they aren’t wearing long sleeves and ties any more. Ken

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My Latest to Vic Cardace of the USGA I want to know from you what I could have done differently in this situation. I made a strategic decision going into this tournament to hit mostly 2iron/3wood off the tee due to very tight conditions on the course that was played twice. I was rewarded with the best stretch of play I’ve ever had. I obviously don’t want you or the USGA on my case. Tim has been sniping at me for about a week. I think he wants to be the Sandbagging Sheriff. He even gets on his mother-in-law’s case due to her tournament success. WRT 10-3 and the 7 shots better than avg rule. I only have one such round and it is the 68 (-4) and that is my career round by 2 shots. So, my view is that 10-3 does not apply in my case.   Do you still feel that I should be "investigated" by handicap authorities at my club ? When I come out of this with a 2 hdcp, I assure you I will be loaded down beyond, I believe, my capabilities. This is disappointing to me to have to defend my actions like this when I feel I’ve had a real breakthrough in my game. I know what a sandbagger is. I’ve seen them on the BBQ circuit for years. To me, that is a guy with a carefully crafted 15 who can and does shoot 76 on demand. With a 5 hdcp for June, it’s hard to think that I have the game to go out and rob people. Seems to me with such a hdcp, that would require a player with a pro quality game. My performance in my most recent tournament (80+, 77, 76) is much, much more typical. BTW, I’m nearing 50 and almost blind so nobody would look at me on the course and think "hustler". The other thing. What is the USGA position (and yours) on Calcuttas ? You seemed to back away from the pro vs am issue when you found that my winnings were from a Calcutta. For me, the most action and fun in a big member/guest is a result of the Calcutta. My intention in posting my story in the newsgroup rec.sport.golf was to share my success with the group. If I had it to do over, I would probably just tell my friends and leave it at that. Thanks for your input. I hope we have reached an understanding. Ken Last reply from Vic Cardace. My Am Status is saved !! Pay attention, Tim. This is the final proclomation from the ivory Dear Mr. Pitts: This is in response to you and Mr. Johnson’s email.  First, I want to clear the air.  I am not calling anyone a "Sandbagger" nor am I trying to get on anyone’s case.  If you recall the original message, it asked a question about a player scoring exceptionally well in a tournament and receiving a $1000.00 prize.  I simply answered the question. With respect to your question, I do not know what you could have done differently.  The basic premise of the USGA Handicap System is that every player will try to make the best score he can at each hole in every round he plays, regardless of  where the round is played, and that he will post every acceptable round for peer review and handicap purposes.  That’s exactly what you did!  If you have been posting all of your scores and Section 10-3 does not kick in then you should not be reduced. As far a participation in a Calcutta event, such an act does not automatically cause one to lose his amateur status.  However, the USGA is opposed to Calcutta’s and continued participation may well jeopardize one’s amateur status. Thank you for your comments and concerns and I consider this issue resolved. Sincerely, Victor Cardace Manager,  Handicap Education

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Ken,     Forget all this crap.  Nice playing…. Mike Bergstrom

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If you read the full specs for how a handicap is determined you’ll find a piece on "exceptional tournament performance" that can drastically reduce your index based upon your tournament performance. This is why you indicate when posting your scores that it was a tournament. The USGA seems to have an algorithm that takes this kind of thing into account, e.g. shot 80+ all the time but 75 whenever in a tournament.  It is important that you indicate if the round was palyed during a tournament and the rest is taken care of.

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Thank you very much. I wonder if golf is in danger of becoming a book keeping contest. You should see that 10-3 rule in the USGA Handicap documentation. What a kluged-up nightmare ! TheReal Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ken,    Forget all this crap.  Nice playing…. Mike Bergstrom

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: [please read the original post] : It just shows me that playing a ‘handicap tournament’ really sucks      No it doesn’t.  What sucks is when you get a golfer that sandbag.   I will give you a good example, last year playing in a tournament with the flight handicap at 16.8 to 18.5, 3 players shoot on the first day a 78.  On the second day one player shoots a 91, another shoots 86 and the third shoots a 80.  Which one would you have doubts about their handicap.  I have shot a 80 before, once in my life. But a 78 and 80 two days in a row.  Like the man says every dog does have it’s day,but two days in a row.      On the other hand I am only talking about golfer that have a handicap over 15.  When you get down to a 4 handicap you are already a exceptional golfer. But, when you have a handicap over 15 it means to me that you get yourself into trouble on the coarse and you are not very likely to have two great days, maybe the two best days in your golf life in a row.  Anything is probable, just not very likely.      Mike J. — Chemistry Instrument Shop               University of Nebraska – Lincoln (402) 472-3542

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Vic, your explanation of the USGA handicap system is certainly by the book, but it does not reflect real life!  For example, you state "A "USGA Handicap Index" is the USGA’s mark that indicates a number that represents the potential ability of a player on a course of standard playing difficulty." A player will only play to his handicap about 20% of the time."

Why does the formula only take a percentage of the average differential of the low 50% of the scores if it is only representing a 1 in 5 chance to shot that "target" score?  How can you chastise a player who has obviously achieved a level of competence equalled by a very low percentage of players when the real problem lies with the far greater number of players with indices that fall in the 10-20 range, yet exceed their "potential" nearly every competition?  I’ll tell you why, because it is easier to do, and it makes friends with the hacks!  I (1.5 index) played with Ken in the second tournament he referred to.  In the 3rd round, he made 4 birdies in a row while I was making birdie on 6 out of 11 holes!  Statistically,either is highly unlikely.  I’m fairly certain that the statical likelyhood of both occuring is akin to picking the right 6 numbers on Saturday night.  However, having played with Ken, which NONE of his detractors/accusors have, I can assure you that his index is accurate.  And ANY attempt to show otherwise is simply sour grapes!   The calcutta in which we participated was limited to players in the tournament only, so I can’t see any possible amateur status peril.  It is not different that paying an entry fee!   Keith Johnson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – VicCardace of the USGA sent me the following email this morning. Mr. Pitts:  I will try to respond to your concerns.  First, Section  2 of the USGA Handicap System manual states: "A "USGA Handicap Index" is the USGA’s mark that indicates a number that represents the potential ability of a player on a course of standard playing difficulty." A player will only play to his handicap about 20% of the time. Therefore, everytime you tee it up, you will not shoot to your handicap.  As proven in your situation.  Section 10-3 was developed to identify players whose tournament scores are significantly better than their other scores.  The table values which you viewed in Section 10-3 were based on real score data and probability theory.  Leniency was built in so as to affect only extreme cases.  As  I stated earlier, golfers average three strokes over their handicap and play to their handicaps around 20% of the time.  Their best score in 20 should be only two to three strokes better than their handicap.  Under Section 10-3, a golfer must have two T-Scores that are both at least seven strokes better than their average score before Section 10-3 kicks in. The odds of that happening are about five in a thousand.  I hope that I have provided sufficient information about this procedure.  If you would like to speak to me further, please contact me directly at I responded to Mr Cardace as follows. I want to know from you what I could have done differently in this situation. I made a strategic decision going into this tournament to hit mostly 2iron/3wood off the tee due to very tight conditions on the course that was played twice. I was rewarded with the best stretch of play I’ve ever had. I obviously don’t want you or the USGA on my case. Tim has been sniping at me for about a week. I think he wants to be the Sandbagging Sheriff. He even gets on his mother-in-law’s case due to her tournament success. WRT 10-3 and the 7 shots better than avg rule. I only have one such round and it is the 68 (-4) and that is my career round by 2 shots. So, my view is that 10-3 does not apply in my case. Do you still feel that I should be "investigated" by handicap authorities at my club ? When I come out of this with a 2 hdcp, I assure you I will be loaded down beyond, I believe, my capabilities. This is disappointing to me to have to defend my actions like this when I feel I’ve had a real breakthrough in my game. I know what a sandbagger is. I’ve seen them on the BBQ circuit for years. To me, that is a guy with a carefully crafted 15 who can and does shoot 76 on demand. With a 5 hdcp for June, it’s hard to think that I have the game to go out and rob people. Seems to me with such a hdcp, that would require a player with a pro quality game. My performance in my most recent tournament (80+, 77, 76) is much, much more typical. BTW, I’m nearing 50 and almost blind so nobody would look at me on the course and think "hustler". The other thing. What is the USGA position (and yours) on Calcuttas ? You seemed to back away from the pro vs am issue when you found that my winnings were from a Calcutta. For me, the most action and fun in a big member/guest is a result of the Calcutta. My intention in posting my story in the newsgroup rec.sport.golf was to share my success with the group. If I had it to do over, I would probably just tell my friends and leave it at that. Thanks for your input. I hope we have reached an understanding. Ken

Response:

To paraphrase a classic Saturday Night Live line…. "Tim, you magnificent prick"….. Ken’s index of 3.9 was verified by is club professional on Thursday before his most recent golf tournament.  It had dropped from somewhere in the 5 range.  I can assure you, after playing with sandbaggers all weekend, that Ken’s index is as honest as anyone in the country!  I assume you don’t want him to turn in the scores he shot in my member/guest because it will not decrease his handicap!  I am constantly amazed at the people who will simply refuse to accept the fact that a good player can, on occasion, play a bit above their head!  However, let a hack shoot 10 shots below their index and, well, it was just a good day!   Let’s see, there were 6 flights this weekend in a quota point format. On the second day, we played with a 7.3 (from an easier course) who hit is every bit as straight as I do (1.5 index and I hit it straight), shot 74 without breaking a sweat, and his partner the 13.1 index from my club who shot a 78 bitching the hole way about how lousy he was playing!!! Of course, when we mentioned that they were 15 over their quota with one hole to go, he made sure that he didn’t par the last hole!  Of course, with quotas, the scores can be somewhat misleading, as birdies gather 4 points and eagles 8 points, but I can only remember 1 birdie by each, so that is not a factor! By the way, the championship flight was won by a low handicap team. They had a 5 & 2, quota of 65, neither shot lower than 75 but their quota was exceeded by 12 points the first day.  Of course, the second day they shot 71 & 67 and 80-72 the third day.  But they made so many birdies that they kept piling on the points.  According you Tim & his little statistical wonks, those scores can’t happen.  A 2 from an easier course can’t shoot -5!  Especially under tournament conditions!  Well it can and does happen, Tim.  And if you think that statistics can explain or refute it, it simply cannot!!!  This is a classic example of "who’s ox is being gored", as I suspect Tim is afraid that some of his "Hack/sandbagger" brethren have been beaten out of something they consider is rightfully theirs….prizes in a golf tournament!   They cheated/lied to get their handicaps up there in the first place fair and square, and now they don’t want to actually loose to someone who is better than they are!  Face it, if you HAVE to rely on your handicap to win, it is a hollow victory EVERY TIME!!!!!  Of course, if you are of that ilk, that’s probably the only kind of victory you ever have a chance to enjoy!!! Did it ever occur to you that those who are complaining are doing so with an ulterior motive, Tim?  Greed and envy!!!  Golf is a game with a significant luck factor attatched.  Hit it down the middle and finish in a divot (usually skewed about 30 degrees to the left) and have no shot to the green..Snap hook it around a grove of trees and the ball ends up on a flat lie with a shot about 30 yds closer than those who hit it in the fairway.  It can’t statistially happen, but it does every day!  Most 18 handicappers can’t tell the difference between the play of a 10 handicapper and a 4.  One day with them and the 18 may be convinced that the 10 is the better player.  But a scratch player can tell the difference very quickly, because their understanding of the game is so much better!  I guarantee that Ken & I are much more qualified to comment on his game than the vast majority of those who lurk here.  And if someone takes exception to this, so be it!  Why no just settle it the old fashioned way, on the golf course, NO STROKES GIVEN, NONE TAKEN!!! Probably won’t get any takers, though.  The crybabies won’t take a bet that is not downhill! Keith Johnson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tomorrow I will turn in the 74, 68, 74 I had in this tournament. I will also turn in the 80+, 77, 76 I had this past weekend in another member/guest. My index is 3.9 up to the minute. With these scores entered, I fully expect my index to be less than 2 for July and believe me, I don’t think I can play to that day in and day out. I don’t know what more can be done. As this is now a matter for this public forum, I feel it interesting to note another point.  when this issue first came to light, Ken told me his up to the minute index was 3.9 AND that he had already turned in these tournament scorecards but the staff at the club "haven’t had time to enter them yet".  Reading the post above, this was an obvious untruth. I pointed this out to Ken and he replied: "I thought I had but I found the cards in my car. I have always intended to turn them in."         Apparently there’s alot of money on the line when Ken plays, "forgetting" to post THREE exceptional scores could have a $ignificant effect on  his handicap and the outcome of matches.

Response:

: If you strictly went by the odds we’d never see a hole in one!  I can : see a legitimate 5 shooting four under par.   A five handicapper is : a good golfer and is a five maybe because of certain flaws.   John, you are so right! The USGA "tables" are based on POSTED scores by players with USGA handicaps. Just how many players turn in their socrecards when they shoot a low round and they want their handicap to remain high??? Sandbagger’s don’t play by the rules of posting all scores, so how can the USGA "tables" be valid statistics??? Lies, damn lies, and statistics! Good Putting! Mark

Response:

VicCardace of the USGA sent me the following email this morning. Mr. Pitts:  I will try to respond to your concerns.  First, Section  2 of the USGA Handicap System manual states: "A "USGA Handicap Index" is the USGA’s mark that indicates a number that represents the potential ability of a player on a course of standard playing difficulty." A player will only play to his handicap about 20% of the time. Therefore, everytime you tee it up, you will not shoot to your handicap.  As proven in your situation.  Section 10-3 was developed to identify players whose tournament scores are significantly better than their other scores.  The table values which you viewed in Section 10-3 were based on real score data and probability theory.  Leniency was built in so as to affect only extreme cases.  As  I stated earlier, golfers average three strokes over their handicap and play to their handicaps around 20% of the time.  Their best score in 20 should be only two to three strokes better than their handicap.  Under Section 10-3, a golfer must have two T-Scores that are both at least seven strokes better than their average score before Section 10-3 kicks in. The odds of that happening are about five in a thousand.  I hope that I have provided sufficient information about this procedure.  If you would like to speak to me further, please contact me directly at I responded to Mr Cardace as follows. I want to know from you what I could have done differently in this situation. I made a strategic decision going into this tournament to hit mostly 2iron/3wood off the tee due to very tight conditions on the course that was played twice. I was rewarded with the best stretch of play I’ve ever had. I obviously don’t want you or the USGA on my case. Tim has been sniping at me for about a week. I think he wants to be the Sandbagging Sheriff. He even gets on his mother-in-law’s case due to her tournament success. WRT 10-3 and the 7 shots better than avg rule. I only have one such round and it is the 68 (-4) and that is my career round by 2 shots. So, my view is that 10-3 does not apply in my case.   Do you still feel that I should be "investigated" by handicap authorities at my club ? When I come out of this with a 2 hdcp, I assure you I will be loaded down beyond, I believe, my capabilities. This is disappointing to me to have to defend my actions like this when I feel I’ve had a real breakthrough in my game. I know what a sandbagger is. I’ve seen them on the BBQ circuit for years. To me, that is a guy with a carefully crafted 15 who can and does shoot 76 on demand. With a 5 hdcp for June, it’s hard to think that I have the game to go out and rob people. Seems to me with such a hdcp, that would require a player with a pro quality game. My performance in my most recent tournament (80+, 77, 76) is much, much more typical. BTW, I’m nearing 50 and almost blind so nobody would look at me on the course and think "hustler". The other thing. What is the USGA position (and yours) on Calcuttas ? You seemed to back away from the pro vs am issue when you found that my winnings were from a Calcutta. For me, the most action and fun in a big member/guest is a result of the Calcutta. My intention in posting my story in the newsgroup rec.sport.golf was to share my success with the group. If I had it to do over, I would probably just tell my friends and leave it at that. Thanks for your input. I hope we have reached an understanding. Ken

Response:

[please read the original post] It just shows me that playing a ‘handicap tournament’ really sucks There are no winners here, only losers, which is sad. Handicap should be a measure of ability to encourage everyone to improve their game (and have something to brag about ). These correspondences only leave a bad taste behind without any possibility of proving either party’s statements. My opinion is that there is no case and you go ahead and enjoy your victory and try to forget about this incident. Thomas Nagy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tim Schorer posted the following about me in the USGA Handicap Discussion Group. Message: I read a post the other day on Usenet from a gentleman ( 5 course hcp) who shot a -4 (gross) on his way to win a tournament and a $1,000 prize. I consulted the tables on the usga webpage and the USGA considers this a 48,000+:1 longshot.

This is a follow-up on my previous message. I just checked my indeces for the day I had my best round of my life (26 course handicap, 14 net, which translates to -12), then I ‘consulted’ the USGA page … they do not even list such a difference! It is a similar category to yours (5th down the yellow stuff) so I guess I must be either a cheater or a sandbagger in the USGA’s eyes (I am neither ). I say they get their statistics and put it where it belongs … into the garbage bin, better yet … (oh, well, no need to be rude…). Thomas Nagy