In fact, the ONLY time we’ve had a problem with any direct debit is when our house was paid off (and we didn’t realize it). The mortgage holder somehow couldn’t bill us for the small amount due, so took out nothing.   Four months later, they threatened us with foreclosure over $172.    That was actually quite funny.

How long did it take to become funny?

Response:

In fact, the ONLY time we’ve had a problem with any direct debit is when our house was paid off (and we didn’t realize it). The mortgage holder somehow couldn’t bill us for the small amount due, so took out nothing.   Four months later, they threatened us with foreclosure over $172.    That was actually quite funny.

I once played at a gig that was a golf tournament, hosted by Lee Trevino. Several months after the gig, they sent me a check for 50 cents. They had made some accounting error and owed me the additional half dollar. I never cashed it. For months I got letters from his accountants asking me to cash it because carrying it on their books was causing them all sorts of grief. Craig

Response:

In fact, the ONLY time we’ve had a problem with any direct debit is when our house was paid off (and we didn’t realize it). The mortgage holder somehow couldn’t bill us for the small amount due, so took out nothing.   Four months later, they threatened us with foreclosure over $172.    That was actually quite funny. How long did it take to become funny?

Two hours….and some yelling at Washington Mutual, who told us "that was part of the agreement you signed with us when you took out your mortage".   "No, it wasn’t.   You bought our mortgage twenty years after origination." Kris

Response:

I once played at a gig that was a golf tournament, hosted by Lee Trevino. Several months after the gig, they sent me a check for 50 cents. They had made some accounting error and owed me the additional half dollar. I never cashed it. For months I got letters from his accountants asking me to cash it because carrying it on their books was causing them all sorts of grief.

How much did you charge them to cash that check? Anything up to a stop-payment fee should’ve been worth their while. Way back in 1979, after one year in my first "real job," I qualified for one share of Pullman-Standard stock. I left the company two days later. The damned dividend check, never more than 50 cents, followed me from Chicago to Houston, Denver to Anaheim, and back to Denver over the next several years, even when I left no forwarding address. It didn’t stop until P-S went under. My alma mater’s alumni association is similarly tenacious, even though I’ve never sent them a cent in 30 years.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In fact, the ONLY time we’ve had a problem with any direct debit is when our house was paid off (and we didn’t realize it). The mortgage holder somehow couldn’t bill us for the small amount due, so took out nothing.   Four months later, they threatened us with foreclosure over $172.    That was actually quite funny. How long did it take to become funny? Two hours….and some yelling at Washington Mutual, who told us "that was part of the agreement you signed with us when you took out your mortage".   "No, it wasn’t.   You bought our mortgage twenty years after origination." Kris

Be sure to check your credit reports.

Response:

Be sure to check your credit reports.

You can now check them for free once annually; the three major credit agencies have even collaborated on a website that streamlines the process: <http://www.annualcreditreport.com/. Make sure to get printouts of everything, as once you leave the various agency sites you can’t go back and view it again without paying. -Bertha — Gotta run, the cat’s caught in the printer.

Response:

I suspect that PayPal and its debit card users were selected as Bank One’s guinea pigs.

Chase bought Bank One recently. Bank One supplies our business line of credit. It may be one of their integration issues since they are moving way to fast to mash the two together.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "…Direct Pay, the easiest way to pay your eBay seller fees. To sign up, first go to www.ebay.com. Go to My eBay by clicking on the button at the top of any eBay page, and choose "Accounts". Then, select "Use a checking account for automatic payments". This blurb tells me nothing useful. What are your opinions of "Direct Pay"? I’m really wary of it. Several months ago, sellers were dinged twice for their monthly fees. (eBay finally gave them their money back, but refused any responsibility for any overdraft charges some sellers incurred as a result. That is going, or went to, court.) Right now, PayPal is having trouble with their debit cards, taking the money  out twice. Lots of problems in a relatively short time, with a not-so-fast response by the parties involved. A

I signed up for eBay fees to come from my business checking, back in January 1997.   There’s never been a problem. In fact, the ONLY time we’ve had a problem with any direct debit is when our house was paid off (and we didn’t realize it). The mortgage holder somehow couldn’t bill us for the small amount due, so took out nothing.   Four months later, they threatened us with foreclosure over $172.    That was actually quite funny. Kris

Response:

"…Direct Pay, the easiest way to pay your eBay seller fees. To sign up, first go to www.ebay.com. Go to My eBay by clicking on the button at the top of any eBay page, and choose "Accounts". Then, select "Use a checking account for automatic payments". This blurb tells me nothing useful. What are your opinions of "Direct Pay"? I’m really wary of it. Several months ago, sellers were dinged twice for their monthly fees.

Not this seller, nor have I had any similar problems with eBay or PayPal. Comes of living a life of rectitude, I guess. Right now, PayPal is having trouble with their debit cards, taking the money  out twice.

Even thrice, in a few lucky cases. Lots of problems in a relatively short time, with a not-so-fast response by the parties involved.

Unfortunately, PayPal is as powerless to fix the debit card problem as cardholders are. The card is issued by Bank One. TSYS currently processes Bank One’s credit card transactions. Bank One is slowly learning how to process them in-house, which may be the source of this difficulty. http://tinyurl.com/7onez "The deal calls for Bank One to convert its 50 million credit-card accounts to TSYS’ state-of-the-art processing platform, called TS2, by late summer 2004. That’s when Bank One’s contract with First Data Corp. expires. First Data is TSYS’ chief competitor. "TSYS is expected to process Bank One’s accounts through late summer 2006. At that point, Bank One will begin processing cards itself using the TS2 technology and paying TSYS a software licensing fee. It will be the first time the company has licensed its processing software." I suspect that PayPal and its debit card users were selected as Bank One’s guinea pigs.

Response:

"…Direct Pay, the easiest way to pay your eBay seller fees. To sign up, first go to www.ebay.com. Go to My eBay by clicking on the button at the top of any eBay page, and choose "Accounts". Then, select "Use a checking account for automatic payments". This blurb tells me nothing useful. What are your opinions of "Direct Pay"?

Response:

"…Direct Pay, the easiest way to pay your eBay seller fees. To sign up, first go to www.ebay.com. Go to My eBay by clicking on the button at the top of any eBay page, and choose "Accounts". Then, select "Use a checking account for automatic payments". This blurb tells me nothing useful. What are your opinions of "Direct Pay"?

Works great if you have money in your checking account.

Response:

"…Direct Pay, the easiest way to pay your eBay seller fees. To sign up, first go to www.ebay.com. Go to My eBay by clicking on the button at the top of any eBay page, and choose "Accounts". Then, select "Use a checking account for automatic payments". This blurb tells me nothing useful. What are your opinions of "Direct Pay"?

I’m really wary of it. Several months ago, sellers were dinged twice for their monthly fees. (eBay finally gave them their money back, but refused any responsibility for any overdraft charges some sellers incurred as a result. That is going, or went to, court.) Right now, PayPal is having trouble with their debit cards, taking the money  out twice. Lots of problems in a relatively short time, with a not-so-fast response by the parties involved. A

Response:

"The feeling of your just goign crazy is the one I really hate, or I really can’t handle this it’s just to much, it’s just weird." It’s sometimes helpful to just say outloud (or at least in your mind) "this is just a feeling, it does not really mean anything at all"  It can also be helpful to know that the only thing you really CANT handle will be the very last thing that happens to you in your life, everything prior to that, you can. G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep some days are good, other days are just damn right miserable and you kinda wish the day would hurry up and be over. I think my GP is a bit against Phsychologist / Physchiatrists, probably believes drugs are the best way or something, I was surprised to, even when I talked to him about the Psychologist he was sort of well whatever works, maybe he isn’t the best GP to be seeing about an Anxiety disorder and how serious or ill feeling it can make you. My phychologist seems to be ok so far and I have the ducene to jump onto if I relapse in a bad way but I am looking for a long term solution. Due to working for myself I can’t afford for this to continue, it’s twice now in 6 months it has rendered me not able to work properly. I just go to bed each night hoping for a good nights sleep and the next day to be a good one. I’ve also given up Pepsi Max (diet drinks) apparently the fake sugar in them type of drinks can also cause problems or increased symptoms, I would of been drinking about 1 litre a day of them, I don’t know if it is true or not however. It was also recommended to drink camamile tea, spose to calm you down make you feel better etc. Anyway I appreciate your help, and do apologise if anythign I say doesn’t make sence, I’m not the best at communicating at times, especially when I’m in a downer like when I wrote that first email. Today is a better day, tomorrow, well only tomorrow knows.  I just want to be able to function normally like know that their is a wedding coming up, and be able to go to it without thinking 1000 bad possible thoughts of what might happen if I go, feel sick, just wanting to come home, and wreck the experience for my wife in the process which I have done so often in the past. I’ve basically become a hermit these days dreading going away from home for any length of time. I used to work 60 hours per week in my previous company which I sold 2 years ago, it was ahigh stressed environment, fixing servers, fixing poeple’s computer problems, large installations that sort of thign, always on call, and I was constantly busy, it’s only been the last couple of years since slowing down and just programming from home this has all become more of a problem. I think with what I mentioned earlier with deaths around, having a child (greater responsibility) it just all caught up. Anyway like most people here I just come for answers and look around for what others have tried and what worked for them so I can better make an informed decision on what might work for me. The feeling of your just goign crazy is the one I really hate, or I really can’t handle this it’s just to much, it’s just weird. I dread the nights as that is sometimes when I get hit the hardest with symptons, if i keep myself busy I tend to feel better but that makes it hard to relax with the family.

Response:

WOW !!!!  it’s been a long time, i missed y’all, only a few faces i recognize, i see Gary responded to this post, so i’m lookin’ forward to a novel here d’rectly…. I LOVE YOU!!!! AND OUR LOVE CHILE IS DOIN WELL, HE’S POTTY TRAINED NOW !!!!  (sorry, i had ta do that, and i done responded to this mail and erased it somehow and i gotta do it agin, and i’m NUTZ ! ) Ok sorry if I’m repeating on information that is already in this form, I’m new here and am trying to figure out whats up with me. Here is whats going on. I’m male 37 years of age and I’m a manager in the IT field. I worry about everything, even when I go out a good time, movie, concert what ever I  only call it a good time when I get back home and all went well.

predicting fear is a symptom of ‘panic disorder’ as opposed ta good ole dyed-in-da-wool ‘panic attacks’, maybe a regimen as opposed to ‘as needed’ meds, benzos would be my choice.. (but then agin, i’m da poster chile fer a couplah bluez) Problems started about 6 months ago, for no real reason I can think of.

if we could think of tha reasons, we’d most likely eliminate em, ya reckon? Getting more sleep seemed to help, untill I went on a trip last week.

I have acid reflux

(remind me never ta take ya to an indian restaurant) Thinking I might be having a heart attack but no real pain, only pressure.

nah, yer havin’ a heart attack, ya just ferget ta die’n stuff. (thank tha LAWD ya don’t call ‘911′ every time, cuz they get all touchy, them boys,’n make fun of ya on tha way back to tha station ta eat beans’n pork) so LOSE THAT NUMBER ! Missed heart beats,or heart races out of control EKG was normal. Pressure under left arm pit, hurts more when breathing out. (whats with this?)

been there, done that, got tha 82,333,298 empty xanax bottles ta prove it, it’s yer mind playin’ tricks on yer body, there is no research ta back up tha cause of this physically symtomatic phenomenon, cuz you should ‘CONTROL IT, IT’S IN YER MIND, YER LETTING YER MIND RULE YOU AS OPPOSED TO YOU RULING YER MIND,’ ::vomit:: and it would take EFFORT to research sumthin’ so insignificant, as it is ‘foreign’ to tha purveyors of our quality of life deemed "professionals of psychology" or what tha fuck EVER and all tha while living with this inexplicible terror as we sit at the mercy of their subjective whims… and why make THAT effort when they got better things ta do, like mix a martini with grey goose vodka with extra large olives stuffed with pickled green beans … (but they can sure tell ya how much yer hair continues ta grow after yer dead… yanno.. IMPERTENT SHIT !!!) Sweet like crazy – afterwords feel shacky and light head

(now yer makin’ me a bit moist) ::gettin tha vapors:: and i’ll think about that tomorrow !  tomorrow’s another day… OH MY!!!  well, fiddle-di-dee Light head many times with out any of the above, coffee makes it worse so I gave up coffee.

…and it’s SOOOOO easy ta get laid at Starbuck’s, that a true sacrifice, dude !!! numbness or tingling in left finger tips.

(are ya watchin’ an over-abundance of porn?) This can happen when I don’t feel I’m in a stress situation Has happened during sex (the racing out of control heart), and I’m sure I wasn’t stressed than!! Oh and I had been drinking as well,feeling really relaxed so I don"t know what gives.

wellllllllll, at LEAST YER HAVIN’ SEX, FER CRYIN’ OUT LOUD, YER TALKIN TO THA DESPERADO OF SEXUAL LIASONS PAST AND PRESENT !  and drinkin’ makes ya feel good.. it’s tha quittin’ part that makes ya feel like crap… can we test THAT theory?  (i’m good at beggin’) Have no symtoms when working out, or when distractedunless I think of it. (perhaps I’m screwed up in the head) So is this a panic attack?

no, yer screwed up in tha head. xoxoxoxo ~tanya (still demure’n subtle, i haven’t lost muh touch) hey Screwed?  may i have yer picture cuz i predict myself movin’ in yer house real soon’n i wanna make sure i’m knockin on da right door.

Response:

I was wonderin’ where alla those luv chile support checks were goin’ to, although ya sure did cash em mighty fast….

(tha crack dealer don’t wait fer nooooooooo-buddy !!!!!  nobody wait fo no fool up in da projeks… gotta get dem dead prezidents, my choices could be runnin thin !!!!) g’on and slip me two xanax bars – I’m ready to git fool 5th to Crown to wash it down, I’m downtown snapping rolls take a chill pill to slow me down and git back in this game gotta be up on ya p’s and q’s to even feel it mane oxycontin, xanax bars, percocet’n lortab valiums, morphine patches, exstacy and it’s all up for grab what’cha want – what’cha need – hit me up I got you mane scarecrow, scarecrow whats that you popping? a powerful pill they call oxycontin see I’ma pill popper – so i’m'ah keep poppin’ em gimme 20 xanax and I’ma start droppin’ em they ain’t no stoppin’ me when they in my system….. (oh god, i just clicked muh heels’n b’came a rappin’ thug wanabe) Been kinda nutty here too, lotta major crapola happened in the past few months, kinda messed up my brain a little… So don’t worry child, ya cain’t hep it, about bein’ nutz, and neether can i ! G $

if ya email me yer # i can call ya fer free cuz i got sum kinda free phone crap, i’d love ta know sumbody’s more screwed up’n me, i’d feel SOOOOOO superior !  (so fake it if ya gotta) people at muh shop tell me "GURLLLL, YOU SHOULD GET’AH CHECK !  MAYBE THRAY’AH FO CHECKS"… i could make a career out’ah this bein nutz crap. marry me, we’ll get free housin’ and a eldorado caddy wif da ‘bruthah package’…. (and rims… rims is impertent now) ~tanya (meeeeeeeeeeet me at tha ned’dest disssssss- coooooooo- teque

Response:

I have a couple of panic attacks now, one last christmas and one about 8 weeks ago when I woke up in the middle of the night with my left arm in pain, I thought it might of been a heart attack (at 34) so I started to panic, then felt sick, then stomach started churning (still does today, not quite over that yet), and still get random pains throughout my body, only last for around 10 seconds here and their sometimes longer, doc says their muscles spasms caused by the anxiety and are normal, along with the churning / wind and occasional "runny poos".

(runny poos?)  that was so cute i’m gonna adopt ya An episode of fraiser came on TV and the dude had a saw tooth and kept having strange occurances happen and was wondering about it being a possible heart attack and that freaked me out more beceause he ended up needing bypass surgery, the timing of the episode for me was all wrong.

do NOT watch Dave Letterman, you may find yerself over tha top.  Then an episode of Law & Order came on straight after it and the guy jogging through the park died of a heart attack…hehe I was surrounded by the concept. Which just drove me further into panic mode and depression, fatigure and so on.  It’s like living your own nightmare that you can’t wake up from;.

have you considered a decision to sans TV fer awhile?  or just watch tha weather channel?  well, maybe not…  too many natural disasters… or tha COOKIN’ CHANNEL !  there ya go, yer cured (thank me later)  I went to the doc like 5 times in 2 weeks, he eventually diagnosed it as Anxiety and prescribed me ducene (a bene)

at least he waited ta diagnose ya til his july payment on his ivory tower was donated by ya !!!! (THAT, folks, is professional integrity)uhhhh, KUDOS, DOC-a-ROONIE !  which worked pritty immeditately although it didn’t get rid of all my symptons it settled me down a heap.  Then I started reasearching panic attacks / anxiety on the internet and started to find a lot of information and realise I wasn’t alone.

you probly WERE alone, just ’seein’ voices. I was so scared during the time of my panic attack, thinking about if I had a heart attack could my wife do proper CPR, discussed funeral stuff with her, didn’t want to be left alone for any length of time, went with her if she went out to avoid being left alone but everywhere I went I was thinking ok this is not a bad spot to have a heart attack, but we went to a park at one stage with our 2 year old daughter and I was kinda freaking thinking about how the ambulance could get down here.  It was all so freaky but seemed so real at the time.

GOOD GOD, YER GIVIN ‘ME’ A PANIC ATTACK !!!!!! ::breathin’n prayin’ to tha benzo gods’n poppinahcouplah bluez:: When I was diagnosed with the with the anxiety problem and put on ducene I also had a suspect mole removed which turned out to be a melanoma stage 2, it had to be cut out a second time by a plastic surgeon (glad I was on the ducene for this).  Doc gives me a 99% ten year survial chance having caught it early enough it all adds to the anxiety.  Havign my brother in-law die recently from a frekish accident where he fell of his bicycle, a close friend dying from a heart attack at work and a friend online dying from a brain anyurism all around my age adds to "how fragile we are" which made it that much worse to me anyway.  I’m sure everyones experiences with anxiety / panic are just as bad.

DUDE !!!!  yer past anxiety, yer in obsession mode, and yer takin’ me with ya !   (let’s drink tequila in jamaica’n get’ah cabana boy, we now BOTH need a vacation) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I stopped taking the ducene about 5 days ago now, after being on them for around 5 weeks, a little withdrawl not much, stomach churning / wind is still their and the random pains, hopefully they will settle. I did find a site on the internet which offers a different approach for dealing with these pains at www.selftherapy.org which do seem to work. A different approach but really does seem to work. Looking back over my life not wanting to goto parties / engagement parties / out on fishing trips all because of Social Anxiety, the sick feelign, thinking bad thoughts of what might happen if I did go, etc shows I’ve had anxiety problems for years, althoguh I never knew what it was, I just thought it was me. I guess a lot of people feel this way as you don’t here much about it. I’m still living the nightmare from day to day hoping tomorrow will be a better day and don’t have any anxiety type symptons.  The problem with anxiety is now I don’t feel anxious but still ahve all the pains and stomach acid /wind issues, more so at night when I relax.

i suggest relaxin’ more.  "DOCTOR, IT FEELS BETTER WHEN I DO THIS"… ("WELL KEEP DOIN’ THAT") Just sitting at nights hoping the minutes would tick over a bit quicker so tomorrow would be a better day, it is certainly scary, but anxiety plays on fear, thats how it all works, fight or flight, you’ll here that a lot when you start any sort of treatment. I see a psychologist and it helps, taught me some breathing exercises, I also read a book called "Living With It", which is about panic attacks and has some real good things in it which make you feel better about yourself. Anyway feel free to email me any of your own personal experiences I’m interested in sharing, getting to understand it more, so I can overcome it totally. I hate it and I bet everyone who has it does.

nah, we thrive on it, we wanna marry it.   I don’t think people really realise how bad it is.

WILL YOU COME VISIT ME?  cuz i now love you. (i panic when i get my mail, and it’s 3 feet from the front door of muh shop, we should be quite happy with each other, me thinkin’ yer worse’n me’n vice versa) ~tanya (yer future)  DON’T PANIC !!!!!!!  i’m jokin.

Response:

Hey man, whats up? You are not having nor will you ever have a heart attack from panic. What you are experiencing are panic attacks. also you will not go crazy nor will you lose control.

he’s correct, that only happens ta goofy chicks in alabama that spend too much time in tha sinkhole of humanity with thugs, druggies, inbreds,5 checks apiece gettin’ mo fo luzers that’ll invest in a woodchipper ta lop off a limb fer a SIXTH check, havin’ fist fights with tha chief of police in her tat shop in alabama’n screamin’ like a banshee on main street: "I AM NOT PSYCHOTIC, I SWEAR TO GOD IT’S Y’ALL, NOT MEEEEEEEEEEE… DO YOU HEAR MEEEEEEEEE".  (tho ineffective, at least, it confirms i do NOT lose control and i ain’t crazy)thank you for that confirmation, i feel better, i hope he does. it is just panic. it comes and it will go.

exactly.  and ya get 3 hots’n a cot in tha meantime (well, it’s POSSIBLE!) What you ahve to do now is realize that you are not messed up in the head.

"YOU ARE NOT MESSED UP IN THA HEAD, IT’S THEMMMMMMMMM" (gotta stay in practice, yanno) we are all normal people with over active fight or flight activity. I suggest you go and see a theraspist to find out why you are having panic.

now THAT’s a tried’n true theory.  as IF ! could be stress, could be memories from a long time ago creeping in. could be a lot of things. what i do know is that you are a normal guy having anxiety attacks. we all have anxiety on this board and NOT ONE OF US HAVE GONE CRAZY AND NOT ONE OF US HAVE HAD A HEART ATTACK FROM THE PANIC.

(i think he meant "NOT ‘TWO’ OF US") there are 20 million people in america with anxiety problems and not one has lost control

(ya think that judge’ll buy that?)  or dies from it. well, sumbody ELSE may die from it … ::reloadin::  neither will you. Just get to see someone and learn relaxation tecniques. You will be fine brother you really will.

is "fine" subjective? now if only i could take my own damn advise!

you just need a bubble bath.  (in alabama, of course) G

~tanya, aka sybil …. lalalalalallalaaaaaaa (and rational people lemme stick needles thru em, ain’t life grand)

Response:

I was wonderin’ where alla those luv chile support checks were goin’ to, although ya sure did cash em mighty fast…. Been kinda nutty here too, lotta major crapola happened in the past few months, kinda messed up my brain a little… So don’t worry child, ya cain’t hep it, about bein’ nutz, and neether can i ! G $

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WOW !!!!  it’s been a long time, i missed y’all, only a few faces i recognize, i see Gary responded to this post, so i’m lookin’ forward to a novel here d’rectly…. I LOVE YOU!!!! AND OUR LOVE CHILE IS DOIN WELL, HE’S POTTY TRAINED NOW !!!!  (sorry, i had ta do that, and i done responded to this mail and erased it somehow and i gotta do it agin, and i’m NUTZ ! ) Ok sorry if I’m repeating on information that is already in this form, I’m new here and am trying to figure out whats up with me. Here is whats going on. I’m male 37 years of age and I’m a manager in the IT field. I worry about everything, even when I go out a good time, movie, concert what ever I  only call it a good time when I get back home and all went well. predicting fear is a symptom of ‘panic disorder’ as opposed ta good ole dyed-in-da-wool ‘panic attacks’, maybe a regimen as opposed to ‘as needed’ meds, benzos would be my choice.. (but then agin, i’m da poster chile fer a couplah bluez) Problems started about 6 months ago, for no real reason I can think of. if we could think of tha reasons, we’d most likely eliminate em, ya reckon? Getting more sleep seemed to help, untill I went on a trip last week. I have acid reflux (remind me never ta take ya to an indian restaurant) Thinking I might be having a heart attack but no real pain, only pressure. nah, yer havin’ a heart attack, ya just ferget ta die’n stuff. (thank tha LAWD ya don’t call ‘911′ every time, cuz they get all touchy, them boys,’n make fun of ya on tha way back to tha station ta eat beans’n pork) so LOSE THAT NUMBER ! Missed heart beats,or heart races out of control EKG was normal. Pressure under left arm pit, hurts more when breathing out. (whats with this?) been there, done that, got tha 82,333,298 empty xanax bottles ta prove it, it’s yer mind playin’ tricks on yer body, there is no research ta back up tha cause of this physically symtomatic phenomenon, cuz you should ‘CONTROL IT, IT’S IN YER MIND, YER LETTING YER MIND RULE YOU AS OPPOSED TO YOU RULING YER MIND,’ ::vomit:: and it would take EFFORT to research sumthin’ so insignificant, as it is ‘foreign’ to tha purveyors of our quality of life deemed "professionals of psychology" or what tha fuck EVER and all tha while living with this inexplicible terror as we sit at the mercy of their subjective whims… and why make THAT effort when they got better things ta do, like mix a martini with grey goose vodka with extra large olives stuffed with pickled green beans … (but they can sure tell ya how much yer hair continues ta grow after yer dead… yanno.. IMPERTENT SHIT !!!) Sweet like crazy – afterwords feel shacky and light head (now yer makin’ me a bit moist) ::gettin tha vapors:: and i’ll think about that tomorrow !  tomorrow’s another day… OH MY!!!  well, fiddle-di-dee Light head many times with out any of the above, coffee makes it worse so I gave up coffee. …and it’s SOOOOO easy ta get laid at Starbuck’s, that a true sacrifice, dude !!! numbness or tingling in left finger tips. (are ya watchin’ an over-abundance of porn?) This can happen when I don’t feel I’m in a stress situation Has happened during sex (the racing out of control heart), and I’m sure I wasn’t stressed than!! Oh and I had been drinking as well,feeling really relaxed so I don"t know what gives. wellllllllll, at LEAST YER HAVIN’ SEX, FER CRYIN’ OUT LOUD, YER TALKIN TO THA DESPERADO OF SEXUAL LIASONS PAST AND PRESENT !  and drinkin’ makes ya feel good.. it’s tha quittin’ part that makes ya feel like crap… can we test THAT theory?  (i’m good at beggin’) Have no symtoms when working out, or when distractedunless I think of it. (perhaps I’m screwed up in the head) So is this a panic attack? no, yer screwed up in tha head. xoxoxoxo ~tanya (still demure’n subtle, i haven’t lost muh touch) hey Screwed?  may i have yer picture cuz i predict myself movin’ in yer house real soon’n i wanna make sure i’m knockin on da right door.

Response:

I think that you are, at the minimum, experiencing anxiety symptoms.

translation:  (it could be much much worse, cuz if anxiety is tha ‘minimum’… i ain’t even gonna comment on tha ‘maximum’)  I can sniff out some kind of "control issue" here,

translation:  (i’m an elvis fan’n ain’t nuthin’ but’ah houndddddddd dawggggggg")  ::thankyaverymuchpriscilla::  although vaguely, it seems to be there.

translation:  (i’m bein’ diplomatic, it SCREAMS "i’m a control freak"… but i didn’t wanna sound controllin’ or even…. judgmental, by god, cuz ta tell ya tha truth, ya really need’ah ass whuppin’… *how big’ah boy are ya?*   My vote:  call EAP, make a (confidential – they always are) convenient appointment (I can hear you now – "but it WONT be convenient!")

translation:  (it’s confidential, but he can hear you, soooooooo… ya GOTTA wonder !!!) and be extremely honest and forthcoming if you feel the mental health practitioner is a "psychologically safe" person to talk with.

translation ::spew, vomit, heave, puke::  (as IF)  They are bound by law not to disclose anything you talk about, and can lose their license if they do, so do not leave anything out

translation:  (they don’t disclose nothin’ cuz they don’t listen ta nothin’)  - the thing you most fear telling them is probably the thing that is bugging you.

translation:  (hopefully he’ll tell me sum dirt without me appearin’ ta be nosey) Let’s start there.

translation:   (if ya don’t, tanya’ll bug tha hell out’ah ya fer info til SHE’s yer anxietal trigger… GOD, i’m glad she’s back) Gary ps:  do you like your job?

translation:  (or does it ‘blow’?) ::gulp:: xoxoxoxo ~tanya (his baby mama) WELLLLLL !!!!!!   i had ta, i missed muh Gary !!!! so shush.

Response:

Thanks for the reply; it helped to know I’m not alone. I find when this happens in public and I sweet, I than freak about sweating and of course I sweet more and I mean dripping right off of me sweet.  I need to learn to get control of this.

(is it just me, or are y’all just full’ah inuendoes taday?)   I started eating much better, green tea extract,

they DO make gatorade’n crap, yanno… it’s america, ya ain’t gotta resort ta THAT !  lots of salmon and long walks, (awwwww, do y’all hold hands?  he feel like’ah cold fish?) hahahaHAHAHAHAHAhahahaha  (i crack me up)  go to bed earlier and heavy yard work and have started to loss weight, I’m about 20 -30lbs over. I would think if I had a heart problem it would show under heavy workout when I strain to lift heavy objects.

::raisin hand:: I’M A HEAVY OBJECT !!!!!  let’s make’ah bet.  I’m amazingly strong and can do these things with out problem.

::fannin::  I can shovel dirt all day (doing some landscaping at home) and never get winded, but when I experience these symptoms I get winded very easily.(is this part of a panic attack?)

yes, anything that feels like crap that ya can’t explain that makes ya feel like yer dyin’ and like yer heart is beatin’ too loud for ya ta go to a golf tournament fer fear you’ll get kicked out fer disturbin’ them lil ball chasers is a panic attack.  (either that or ya got struck by lightnin’… but whaddah tha chances?) The other thing that bothers me about this is – its all I think about!!

ALL ya think about???? (now that could give a gal a duplex, yanno)…. or a complex… whichever… agin, ‘panic disorder’ as opposed to panic attacks, and i’m with ya, dude… it’s the one thing, even if yer life is perfection that can annihilate yer very existence, and it ain’t a matter of ‘if ya let it’… i wanna beat tha shit outta people that say that very thing with a friggin mop’n tell em ta shaddup and go check out tha dark side of tha golden gate bridge’n jump or marry me, whichever causes tha most misery, and that’s why i’m tha xanax queen of america and i’d like ta thank all tha little people involved… ::donnin’ my tiara::  AND BLOWIN’ KISSES, OF COURSE ! ~tanya <smile

Response:

Go see a holistic doctor he can help you get to the root of the problem I know I see one. I had the same symptems you had but not any more  Email me out there and its not Meds ok. its life style changes and vitamins and detoxifying the body and juiceing and casting all those worrys you have and thank good thoughts speak life not death over your self   God Bless you

now why didn’t *i* think’ah that, treatin’ tha mind’n body as a whole, not dissectin’ tha two, and BAM !  (yer cured) only ONE lil problem i see with that theory, there, Harley…  do ya REALLY think we all just sat/sit around’n say "oh well, i’ll just put this feelin’ off’n deal with it tomorrow, it’s mind ovah mattah" or ya think we might’ah just said 80 million times "I’LL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF EVERY RESOURCE AVAILABLE, I’LL BECOME A PROFESSIONAL BREATHER, LEARN TA MEDITATE, DO PILATES ON A PURPLE MAT, EAT RAW RATS DOUSED IN GASOLINE, GO TA MECCA’N STARE AT THA SUN’N SAY AHHHHMMMMMMM, LISTEN TA IDIOTS THAT HAVE NO CLUE WHAT WE’RE FEELIN’ AND TOOK EVEN ‘THEIR’ ADVICE TA JUST ‘STOP THINKIN ABOUT IT, GET SUM CONTROL’ EVEN THO THEM PEOPLE SHOULD BE STRANGLED WITH THE HAIR OF AN AFRICAN BEAST OR SAID THA PLEDGE OF ALLEGIENCE IN FRONT A GROUP OF FANS AT’AH MIDGET BOWLIN’ CONTEST OR MOVED TO A TREEHOUSE IN WYOMING TO COMMUNE WITH NATURE WHILE ROASTIN’ WEENIES’N SINGIN’ KUM BAH friggin YAH AND EVEN PRAY TA THE FRIGGIN GOD OF GODS’N MEMORIZE THA BOOK OF ‘PSALMS’, FIND RELIGION AND THA IMAGE OF THA VIRGIN MARY IN A COFFEE CUP AND BECOME SPIRITUAL AND EVERY OTHER PIECE’AH SHIT CRAP YA CAN THINK OF OR HEARD INCLUDIN’ ORDERIN SUM LAME FRIGGIN’ VIDEO OFF SUM INFOMERCIAL OUTTA DESPERATION ?????" how tha HELL did we ferget ta go to a holistic dude that sits around’n burns incense’n wear clothes from "Pier 1" that ain’t got no shoes… i bet he even would call me "MY CHILD"…  ::smackin forehead:: WOW ! and i could’ah avoided all this angst !!!!! now Bruthah Harley, i’m thinkin’ that i can personally cure ya of yer addiction to a bike most never see but from tha bottom up, as they’re always under it…. ummmmmm……GAS’N A MATCH !  see?  i’m a genius as well, we should write’ah book. ~tanya (i know, i know… you know ‘JUST how we feel’… tell it to tha pope… only tha good die young)

Response:

Yep some days are good, other days are just damn right miserable and you kinda wish the day would hurry up and be over. I think my GP is a bit against Phsychologist / Physchiatrists, probably believes drugs are the best way or something, I was surprised to, even when I talked to him about the Psychologist he was sort of well whatever works, maybe he isn’t the best GP to be seeing about an Anxiety disorder and how serious or ill feeling it can make you. My phychologist seems to be ok so far and I have the ducene to jump onto if I relapse in a bad way but I am looking for a long term solution. Due to working for myself I can’t afford for this to continue, it’s twice now in 6 months it has rendered me not able to work properly. I just go to bed each night hoping for a good nights sleep and the next day to be a good one. I’ve also given up Pepsi Max (diet drinks) apparently the fake sugar in them type of drinks can also cause problems or increased symptoms, I would of been drinking about 1 litre a day of them, I don’t know if it is true or not however. It was also recommended to drink camamile tea, spose to calm you down make you feel better etc. Anyway I appreciate your help, and do apologise if anythign I say doesn’t make sence, I’m not the best at communicating at times, especially when I’m in a downer like when I wrote that first email. Today is a better day, tomorrow, well only tomorrow knows.  I just want to be able to function normally like know that their is a wedding coming up, and be able to go to it without thinking 1000 bad possible thoughts of what might happen if I go, feel sick, just wanting to come home, and wreck the experience for my wife in the process which I have done so often in the past. I’ve basically become a hermit these days dreading going away from home for any length of time. I used to work 60 hours per week in my previous company which I sold 2 years ago, it was ahigh stressed environment, fixing servers, fixing poeple’s computer problems, large installations that sort of thign, always on call, and I was constantly busy, it’s only been the last couple of years since slowing down and just programming from home this has all become more of a problem. I think with what I mentioned earlier with deaths around, having a child (greater responsibility) it just all caught up. Anyway like most people here I just come for answers and look around for what others have tried and what worked for them so I can better make an informed decision on what might work for me. The feeling of your just goign crazy is the one I really hate, or I really can’t handle this it’s just to much, it’s just weird. I dread the nights as that is sometimes when I get hit the hardest with symptons, if i keep myself busy I tend to feel better but that makes it hard to relax with the family.

Response:

Mr. Goodwin:  I’m sorry, I didn’t know you were in Australia, and am not especially familiar with how they run medical practices etc. (however I’m sure they do all the things I spoke of, someplace) Having read everything very carefully, it does very much sound like you would benefit from consultation with a psychiatrist.  There is some discussion of social anxiety problems, you have cited work as a possible source of anxiety (which you are obviously exposed to often, and can’t avoid, unlike parties).  You have anticipatory anxiety, as evidenced by the discussion of the power outage.  Anxiety problems do not really have an intellectual dimension (in the context of being "stupid" I mean) – they just "happen", as you say.  I also read something that sounded like de-personalization (a common, yet fairly scary anxiety disorder symptom) and you were unable to work as a result of this.  It is hard to imagine that a physician, knowing all those things would not feel that you deserved a psych consult.  From reading your posts again, it also appears that you have a number of assets in your life which will very likely help you work your way through this problem, and you may only need some Cognitive/Behavioral therapy – I tend to want to send everyone to a shrink, but I do find that they are often excellent at diagnosing and also are often very good with the more subtle aspects of choosing treatment options, simply because they study the esoterica of this field and attend symposiums, conferences, etc. – generally having a higher level of acumen in dealing with a wide variety of scenarios having to do with mental health issues.  In fairness, some therapists and psychologists are also excellent, and can be enormously helpful – as Philip likes to say "if it works, it works" – which is quite true. By the way, thank you for your book recommendation, I plan to take a look at it when I have time. You can absolutely get full control of these symptoms and problems, it just takes a little while – so keep going.  Actually, you sound a little bit better in this more recent post than you did in the first one I read. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have any diagnosed medical problems?  (Chronic ones, that you may even take medicines every day for)… Nope My Typical work rotuine involves getting up around 7/8am and then going to my officer, I work at home as a Software Developer creating various software application for clients.  I do go see them onsite occasionally etc.  I tend to work in the office most of the day, taking 1 hour out to do some piano practice (sometimes) however this has been difficult since the last panic attack. I cease work around 5pm and then have dinner usually and watch television, and maybe play a game or two after that.  It’s usually later in the day when I have more physical symptons liek the stomach churning / wind and muscle spams when I start watching Television. I feel fairly fullfilled in my life, achieved a lot of the goals I always wanted to, ie becominga programmer, learning the piano.  My wife is a stay at home mum at the moment but she will eventually move into child care which she is studying currently.  Somtimes I wonder about the purpose of life and dwell on the meaning of life.  I don’t follow any religions as I find them hard to believe, I do believe their is a GOD as such, but do wonder a lot if their is anything else once you die. I took 5mg of Ducene per day, 1/2 a tablet in the morning, 1/2 a tablet a night. It never stopped all my symptons like the stomch churning / wind or the muscle spasms but it took away the thoughts of having a heart attack etc and made me able to function more rationally etc. Finances are good, not in debt, do quite well in that department so don’t feel as I would get any stress from that.  My childhood was a little rough my father basically left me when I was 15, it’s a long story, used to get bullied at school etc, I don’t know wehther this contributes to my current condition or not, but you hear a lot of people say that the first x years of your life tend to make you what you are later on in life. I tend to avoid parties currently and if I go don’t typically stay long, wife goes along with it, altough not happy, I tend to feel sick just going to them and usually try to make up reasons why I can’t go, or shouldn’t go. I refer to fear as when something bad happens like the other night (yesterday the power went out in the middle of the house) to half of the house, It stressed me as no power to the fridge and I feared it would increase my anxiety and cause more symptons and maybe lead to a panic attack.  It ended up getting fixed but I was pacing a lot during the time, couldn’t work, felt out of it (distant), its hard to explain. I fear bad situations now may increase my anxiety….I think little problems tend to become big because I dwell on them in a circle, it’s stupid I know but it happens. I stopped taking the drug becuase I believed it was having an affect on my creativity side and piano practice / playing, by taking the feeling out of it.  And also believed it was harder to remember stuff (shot term), ie practice wasn’t as easy as normal and wasn’t progressing the same as  it did before I was on the drug. I’ll see if I can get them tests done, but teh Australian medical system is a bit weird in that typically a doctor has to recommend it, you can’t just ask for them "even on private medical insurance", anyway I’ll check. I had a EKG a few years back due to having high blood pressure when I went for my pilots medical.  They said the high blood pressure was caused by white syndrome or something like that, goes up while their taking it but otherwise normal.  They made me wear a blood pressure monitor for 24 hours. Like with a phychiatrist here in Australia you acn’t just go see one you need a doctors referal and he hasn’t deemed it necessary just recommends the ducene tablets.  However I am seeing a phychologist that has taught me the breathing excersises so far and is now starting my on CBT. I did go directly once to a phychiatrist but he was so concearned about me not having a doctors referal more than anything else.  He said he could put me on anti-depresents but they would take 2 months to click in, i never went back.  This was after my first panic-attack or high anxiety situation at Christmas time where it lasted a few months but I got over it and life went back to normal. Thanks for all your advice and I’ll keep you up to date.

Response:

Do you have any diagnosed medical problems?  (Chronic ones, that you may even take medicines every day for)… Nope My Typical work rotuine involves getting up around 7/8am and then going to my officer, I work at home as a Software Developer creating various software application for clients.  I do go see them onsite occasionally etc.  I tend to work in the office most of the day, taking 1 hour out to do some piano practice (sometimes) however this has been difficult since the last panic attack. I cease work around 5pm and then have dinner usually and watch television, and maybe play a game or two after that.  It’s usually later in the day when I have more physical symptons liek the stomach churning / wind and muscle spams when I start watching Television. I feel fairly fullfilled in my life, achieved a lot of the goals I always wanted to, ie becominga programmer, learning the piano.  My wife is a stay at home mum at the moment but she will eventually move into child care which she is studying currently.  Somtimes I wonder about the purpose of life and dwell on the meaning of life.  I don’t follow any religions as I find them hard to believe, I do believe their is a GOD as such, but do wonder a lot if their is anything else once you die. I took 5mg of Ducene per day, 1/2 a tablet in the morning, 1/2 a tablet a night. It never stopped all my symptons like the stomch churning / wind or the muscle spasms but it took away the thoughts of having a heart attack etc and made me able to function more rationally etc. Finances are good, not in debt, do quite well in that department so don’t feel as I would get any stress from that.  My childhood was a little rough my father basically left me when I was 15, it’s a long story, used to get bullied at school etc, I don’t know wehther this contributes to my current condition or not, but you hear a lot of people say that the first x years of your life tend to make you what you are later on in life. I tend to avoid parties currently and if I go don’t typically stay long, wife goes along with it, altough not happy, I tend to feel sick just going to them and usually try to make up reasons why I can’t go, or shouldn’t go. I refer to fear as when something bad happens like the other night (yesterday the power went out in the middle of the house) to half of the house, It stressed me as no power to the fridge and I feared it would increase my anxiety and cause more symptons and maybe lead to a panic attack.  It ended up getting fixed but I was pacing a lot during the time, couldn’t work, felt out of it (distant), its hard to explain.  I fear bad situations now may increase my anxiety….I think little problems tend to become big because I dwell on them in a circle, it’s stupid I know but it happens. I stopped taking the drug becuase I believed it was having an affect on my creativity side and piano practice / playing, by taking the feeling out of it.  And also believed it was harder to remember stuff (shot term), ie practice wasn’t as easy as normal and wasn’t progressing the same as  it did before I was on the drug. I’ll see if I can get them tests done, but teh Australian medical system is a bit weird in that typically a doctor has to recommend it, you can’t just ask for them "even on private medical insurance", anyway I’ll check. I had a EKG a few years back due to having high blood pressure when I went for my pilots medical.  They said the high blood pressure was caused by white syndrome or something like that, goes up while their taking it but otherwise normal.  They made me wear a blood pressure monitor for 24 hours. Like with a phychiatrist here in Australia you acn’t just go see one you need a doctors referal and he hasn’t deemed it necessary just recommends the ducene tablets.  However I am seeing a phychologist that has taught me the breathing excersises so far and is now starting my on CBT. I did go directly once to a phychiatrist but he was so concearned about me not having a doctors referal more than anything else.  He said he could put me on anti-depresents but they would take 2 months to click in, i never went back.  This was after my first panic-attack or high anxiety situation at Christmas time where it lasted a few months but I got over it and life went back to normal. Thanks for all your advice and I’ll keep you up to date.

Response:

Mr. Goodwin:  You cite a panic attack, with subsequent and recurrent physical symptoms 8 weeks ago.  You then said later that you stopped taking ducene (valium) only 5 days ago, after having taken it for over a month.  I will try to help you in any way possible, but I do have a few questions if you wouldn’t mind answering them; it would help me know you better.  How much valium/ducene were you taking every day?  If the amount varied from day to day, what was the highest amount you needed? Do you have any diagnosed medical problems?  (Chronic ones, that you may even take medicines every day for)… Please detail a typical day of yours – from wake-up to bed-time.  Your job, your spouse/child (what’s that like, the relationships, the nature of the interactions, how you feel during them, anything you care to say here…) Do you rent/buy?  What are your finances like?  Any credit cards?  Spouse working or stay home mom?  On a scale of one to ten (one is "ready to go postal any day now" and ten is "would work there for free if they stopped paying me") how much do you like your job?  What are your thoughts on fulfillment and how that is best achieved by people, in their lives?  How do you feel, in terms of being fulfilled? There are some inconsistent statements in your post (not uncommon for anxious people stopping valium) so let me just try to get the answers cleared up for myself: "I’m still living the nightmare from day to day hoping tomorrow will be a better day… and don’t have any anxiety type symptoms." Then you go on to say:  "The problem with anxiety is now I don’t feel anxious but still have all the pains and stomach issues, more so at night when I relax"  What pains are you speaking of?  If it’s a nightmare, how do you relax? You "don’t feel anxious", but it is "certainly scary" and makes you hope "the minutes would tick over a bit quicker".  As you can imagine, it’s hard to know what you are really trying to say.  Are you still anxious?  (it sounds for all the world like you are, but you get most of the votes on that). Fear and anxiety must be differentiated with great accuracy (in your mind, my mind, everyone’s).  Fear of having your house foreclosed is what keeps you from saying "fuck it" and going to the beach without calling your job first… Anxiety is what keeps you from going to parties because of imagined bad things that "might" happen.  One is known, the other is imagined.  There is fear of the known (getting fired) and fear of the unknown (what will happen, if I actually DO get fired?).  Anxiety has a slightly less rational component to it, in my opinion.  It is the job of the anxiety sufferer to challenge the rationality of the thoughts you have, when experiencing anxiety.  Example:  "I don’t really WANT to go to this party, but it’s important to my wife.  What if I have stomach gas while I’m there, and I get embarrassed?"  This type of thought, unexamined, can paralyze an anxious person.  Examined though, it can be taken apart.  I really don’t WANT to go – well, I have done lots of things I didn’t WANT to do this week, so this will just be one more, and I might even have a decent conversation with someone….  What if I have stomach gas?  Is there anyone at this party who has never had stomach gas?  What is the worst thing that could happen if they knew (which they might very well not) that I was having it?  They might even give me some Pepto Bismol, and because people bond via "crisis", I might make a new friend…  Are there any legitimate reasons why I should actually be afraid to invest a couple of hours in this party?  Can I contract with my wife, that if I just cannot stand it after an hour, that we can politely leave?  These are the kind of thoughts you must practice – rather than the very well-practiced ones that involve doom, lack and losing – how’s that skill been working for you? What was the reason you stopped taking Valium only a few weeks after a panic attack that left you with a (still unstable) stomach problem ? Steve:  this is what I would do, if I were in your situation (which I’m not, so please don’t construe it as "advice", but just my own take on it, based on limited data – well, actually it is advice but given with the knowledge that I have less than a ton of knowledge about you.) a)  I’d make an appointment to see a psychiatrist (call the local hospital, in the evening, and ask one of the nurses which of the shrinks is good at dealing with anxious people – they will know; if they say they don’t know, ask for someone who does) b)  Bring the post (print it) that you sent here, and highlight all of the symptoms that you pointed out here, it will save time, and time in those offices is pricey, so get the most bang for your buck. c)  Realize that today’s medicine practitioners "like" to put people on anti-depressants (usually SSRI type, like Paxil, Celexa, etc.) to get these types of syndromes under control.  If your anxiety is so bad that you are being impaired or crippled by it, the "waiting period" of several weeks for the anti-depressant to kick in will possibly need to be supported by a benzo, however Valium is not always the best choice due to its very long elimination time from your liver.  A physician can best decide this, based on things unique to you; I cannot.  Medication may not be what the psych doc even wants to do, but the more info you give him/her, the better guess they can make as to what will help you the most. d)  Make a list of Plus and Minus columns, about your life (anything that comes to mind – a plus could be "I went to a great highschool, I have a great job, My wife is sexy as hell, I love my neighborhood, My car started today….I am so glad we have the church we do in this town, I’m so glad I don’t go to church, (whatever the answers are is what they are)" and so on. Minus items could be anything (don’t know your life history, but I bet you know most of it…) "I had a really bad week every month this past month at work, I have less friends than I’d like, I wish I looked better, I had a really bad set of parents because they____,  My wife is really a pain in my ass and if she would just ____ I think I’d like her more, The following three things happened to me growing up that I just can’t stand thinking about or I feel a little sick, and they are ____, _____, _____.  My finances need the following improvements: (list them)..  I wish I was sexier to my wife, I want a bigger penis, whatever…"  This will save enormous amounts of time, if you are honest – no one has to see this list but you, you can burn it if you want after the appointment – and the shrink CANNOT discuss the case with anyone in your life – it’s illegal and they can lose their practice license if they do that, and they know it very well, so be HONEST The less you want to disclose a particular thing, the more likely it is that the "thing" has something to do with why you are having anxiety – the safe place to talk about it is in the shrink office. e)  Ask your family doctor to do a complete thyroid panel (he’ll know what that is, and why you want it) and bring those results to the shrink office. Tell him you will also need a complete chemistry panel, often called a Chem 26, or "complete chemistry panel" (which includes basic electrolytes, liver functions, some kidney function tests).  Also ask for a CBC and and ESR (lab tests).  Have copies of ALL the results with you when you go to the shrink – this accomplishes several things, most notably it lets the shrink know a number of things that you don’t have wrong with you, and also lets him/her know that you are quite serious about getting better.  Get an EKG done, your family doctor should be able to do that, and if not, get another doctor – immediately.  Bring the EKG to the shrink’s office as well (a copy of it). Make a list of ANY medicines that you EVER take, and how often you take them.  Write down what type of alcohol you drink, how often you use it, and for how long you’ve been using it and how much (on average) each time you drink.  I don’t care if you drink once a year, write that down too.  If you use any other substances, such as marijuana, cocaine, etc.. write that down too – I don’t know you, so I am just covering it all, and believe me, the shrink has heard ALL of it before, a million times, so do NOT conceal any of this type information.  If anyone in your family has history of mental health problems, write that down – e.g. father died of alcoholism, mother was hospitalized several times for depression, or perhaps "no known history at all"…  Incidentally, you may have had some of the labwork I discussed earlier done recently, in which case it would not necessarily be required to get it again (but bring copies of all of it, regardless, to the psychiatrist).  Same with the EKG – it should be less than a year old though, and recent if you’ve been having any kind of palpitations or anything like that.  Ask your family doctor point blank if there are ANY ABNORMALITIES in your physical exam, in his opinion.  Ask him to please write them down for your shrink, if the answer is "yes".  Of particular interest to the shrink will be the ducene, the dosage, tablet size (mgs), how often used, results, how long you’ve been off it now, etc.. so have that ready too.  Writing all this down will save a TON of time, and you will get a lot more accomplished much faster.  Obviously, if YOU have any history of mental health treatment, write that down in detail too.  Do not (DO NOT) over, or under emphasize anything, be very factual about all information. If emotion comes with it, it is ok, and useful actually, to show that.  If you cry, you cry – they buy Kleenex by the case (seriously, they do). f)  You don’t have to get a

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Response:

I have a couple of panic attacks now, one last christmas and one about 8 weeks ago when I woke up in the middle of the night with my left arm in pain, I thought it might of been a heart attack (at 34) so I started to panic, then felt sick, then stomach started churning (still does today, not quite over that yet), and still get random pains throughout my body, only last for around 10 seconds here and their sometimes longer, doc says their muscles spasms caused by the anxiety and are normal, along with the churning / wind and occasional "runny poos". Anyway I was in panic mode after the arm problem and then indegistion started, so I looked it up on the internet and quite often indegistion is mistaken for a possible heart attack so I was in more of a panic mode hot flushes, had an underlying flu at the time and my immune system was shutting down, so started to get real sick. An episode of fraiser came on TV and the dude had a saw tooth and kept having strange occurances happen and was wondering about it being a possible heart attack and that freaked me out more beceause he ended up needing bypass surgery, the timing of the episode for me was all wrong.  Then an episode of Law & Order came on straight after it and the guy jogging through the park died of a heart attack…hehe I was surrounded by the concept. Which just drove me further into panic mode and depression, fatigure and so on.  It’s like living your own nightmare that you can’t wake up from;.  I went to the doc like 5 times in 2 weeks, he eventually diagnosed it as Anxiety and prescribed me ducene (a bene) which worked pritty immeditately although it didn’t get rid of all my symptons it settled me down a heap.  Then I started reasearching panic attacks / anxiety on the internet and started to find a lot of information and realise I wasn’t alone. I was so scared during the time of my panic attack, thinking about if I had a heart attack could my wife do proper CPR, discussed funeral stuff with her, didn’t want to be left alone for any length of time, went with her if she went out to avoid being left alone but everywhere I went I was thinking ok this is not a bad spot to have a heart attack, but we went to a park at one stage with our 2 year old daughter and I was kinda freaking thinking about how the ambulance could get down here.  It was all so freaky but seemed so real at the time. When I was diagnosed with the with the anxiety problem and put on ducene I also had a suspect mole removed which turned out to be a melanoma stage 2, it had to be cut out a second time by a plastic surgeon (glad I was on the ducene for this).  Doc gives me a 99% ten year survial chance having caught it early enough it all adds to the anxiety.  Havign my brother in-law die recently from a frekish accident where he fell of his bicycle, a close friend dying from a heart attack at work and a friend online dying from a brain anyurism all around my age adds to "how fragile we are" which made it that much worse to me anyway.  I’m sure everyones experiences with anxiety / panic are just as bad. I stopped taking the ducene about 5 days ago now, after being on them for around 5 weeks, a little withdrawl not much, stomach churning / wind is still their and the random pains, hopefully they will settle. I did find a site on the internet which offers a different approach for dealing with these pains at www.selftherapy.org which do seem to work. A different approach but really does seem to work. Looking back over my life not wanting to goto parties / engagement parties / out on fishing trips all because of Social Anxiety, the sick feelign, thinking bad thoughts of what might happen if I did go, etc shows I’ve had anxiety problems for years, althoguh I never knew what it was, I just thought it was me. I guess a lot of people feel this way as you don’t here much about it. I’m still living the nightmare from day to day hoping tomorrow will be a better day and don’t have any anxiety type symptons.  The problem with anxiety is now I don’t feel anxious but still ahve all the pains and stomach acid /wind issues, more so at night when I relax. Just sitting at nights hoping the minutes would tick over a bit quicker so tomorrow would be a better day, it is certainly scary, but anxiety plays on fear, thats how it all works, fight or flight, you’ll here that a lot when you start any sort of treatment. I see a psychologist and it helps, taught me some breathing exercises, I also read a book called "Living With It", which is about panic attacks and has some real good things in it which make you feel better about yourself. Anyway feel free to email me any of your own personal experiences I’m interested in sharing, getting to understand it more, so I can overcome it totally. I hate it and I bet everyone who has it does.  I don’t think people really realise how bad it is. Thanks – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok sorry if I’m repeating on information that is already in this form, I’m new here and am trying to figure out whats up with me. Here is whats going on. I’m male 37 years of age and I’m a manager in the IT field. I worry about everything, even when I go out a good time, movie, concert what ever I  only call it a good time when I get back home and all went well. Problems started about 6 months ago, for no real reason I can think of. Getting more sleep seemed to help, untill I went on a trip last week. I have acid reflux Thinking I might be having a heart attack but no real pain, only pressure. Missed heart beats,or heart races out of control EKG was normal. Pressure under left arm pit, hurts more when breathing out. (whats with this?) Sweet like crazy – afterwords feel shacky and light head Light head many times with out any of the above, coffee makes it worse so I gave up coffee. numbness or tingling in left finger tips. This can happen when I don’t feel I’m in a stress situation Has happened during sex (the racing out of control heart), and I’m sure I wasn’t stressed than!! Oh and I had been drinking as well,feeling really relaxed so I don"t know what gives. Have no symtoms when working out, or when distractedunless I think of it. (perhaps I’m screwed up in the head) So is this a panic attack?

Response:

Hey man, whats up? You are not having nor will you ever have a heart attack from panic. What you are experiencing are panic attacks. also you will not go crazy nor will you lose control. it is just panic. it comes and it will go. What you ahve to do now is realize that you are not messed up in the head. we are all normal people with over active fight or flight activity. I suggest you go and see a theraspist to find out why you are having panic. could be stress, could be memories from a long time ago creeping in. could be a lot of things. what i do know is that you are a normal guy having anxiety attacks. we all have anxiety on this board and NOT ONE OF US HAVE GONE CRAZY AND NOT ONE OF US HAVE HAD A HEART ATTACK FROM THE PANIC. there are 20 million people in america with anxiety problems and not one has lost control or dies from it. neither will you. Just get to see someone and learn relaxation tecniques. You will be fine brother you really will. now if only i could take my own damn advise! G

Response:

My interpretation of this, so far, is that food was used to relieve stress for a length of time, worked reasonably well (except perhaps for the waistline), and has suddenly been removed as a coping mechanism, by your own volition. Suddenly, the stressors exceed the coping mechanisms available, and voila – we see symptoms.  Solution:  increase coping mechanisms (CBT, meds, meditation, biofeedback, other stress reduction methods which may be infinite) or reduce stress (harder to do, as it’s already in place which you’ve outlined fairly clearly. By the way, there is a thing called a "silent MI" (myocardial infarction) – where no symptoms present themselves, making it even more pointless to worry about this, in my opinion.  By eating better, you will be less likely to develop high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity (three controllable risk factors for MI) so you are taking control, which is a great anxiolytic in my book. G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do like my job, though it has its stress. I have some 396 educators to support and service and some 10000 students along with 2000 computers all of which are spread out in some 20 different locations. And I have a large staff of 5 to maintain and do all of this, we are very good at what we do and are the best in the industry, that’s not cheap talk either. We’ve been doing this for some 10 years now, so I can conclud this is were my stress is coming from. My problems began about 6 months ago when I started to eat healthy and now that I think back I think I may have used food as a stress relieve, so now (just 2 weeks ago) I’ve been taking up walking and doing more active things so perhaps in time this will help. Knowing that it’s not my heart is the biggest relief and my irregular heartbeats are much less, and I don’t panic when that happens anymore. It’s the pressure on the left side and the sweating and tingling in the fingertips that had me freaked out, but I think I can ride those out now knowing what I know now. As for my symptoms they are not always the same or all at once. Sometimes I have irregular heartbeats, sometimes I’m light headed, something I have both. And a few times I have the heavy sweating possible a heat attack feeling. Never had a heart attack so I don’t know what that feels like and if I ever do I hope I know it is a heart attack, there’s a question, how will I know a panic attack from a heart attack? What is EAP? Employee Assistance Program? Might be through your employer or medical insurer I’ve cared for many panic attack victims and a few heart attack cases. You’d  KNOW the difference right away. The pain and pressure described by people who’ve had them is a real attention getter.    Much more intense than the feelings we get in the course of a panic attack.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do like my job, though it has its stress. I have some 396 educators to support and service and some 10000 students along with 2000 computers all of which are spread out in some 20 different locations. And I have a large staff of 5 to maintain and do all of this, we are very good at what we do and are the best in the industry, that’s not cheap talk either. We’ve been doing this for some 10 years now, so I can conclud this is were my stress is coming from. My problems began about 6 months ago when I started to eat healthy and now that I think back I think I may have used food as a stress relieve, so now (just 2 weeks ago) I’ve been taking up walking and doing more active things so perhaps in time this will help. Knowing that it’s not my heart is the biggest relief and my irregular heartbeats are much less, and I don’t panic when that happens anymore. It’s the pressure on the left side and the sweating and tingling in the fingertips that had me freaked out, but I think I can ride those out now knowing what I know now. As for my symptoms they are not always the same or all at once. Sometimes I have irregular heartbeats, sometimes I’m light headed, something I have both. And a few times I have the heavy sweating possible a heat attack feeling. Never had a heart attack so I don’t know what that feels like and if I ever do I hope I know it is a heart attack, there’s a question, how will I know a panic attack from a heart attack? What is EAP?

Employee Assistance Program? Might be through your employer or medical insurer I’ve cared for many panic attack victims and a few heart attack cases. You’d  KNOW the difference right away. The pain and pressure described by people who’ve had them is a real attention getter.    Much more intense than the feelings we get in the course of a panic attack.

Response:

I do like my job, though it has its stress. I have some 396 educators to support and service and some 10000 students along with 2000 computers all of which are spread out in some 20 different locations. And I have a large staff of 5 to maintain and do all of this, we are very good at what we do and are the best in the industry, that’s not cheap talk either. We’ve been doing this for some 10 years now, so I can conclud this is were my stress is coming from. My problems began about 6 months ago when I started to eat healthy and now that I think back I think I may have used food as a stress relieve, so now (just 2 weeks ago) I’ve been taking up walking and doing more active things so perhaps in time this will help. Knowing that it’s not my heart is the biggest relief and my irregular heartbeats are much less, and I don’t panic when that happens anymore. It’s the pressure on the left side and the sweating and tingling in the fingertips that had me freaked out, but I think I can ride those out now knowing what I know now. As for my symptoms they are not always the same or all at once. Sometimes I have irregular heartbeats, sometimes I’m light headed, something I have both. And a few times I have the heavy sweating possible a heat attack feeling. Never had a heart attack so I don’t know what that feels like and if I ever do I hope I know it is a heart attack, there’s a question, how will I know a panic attack from a heart attack? What is EAP? Thanks for the help. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that you are, at the minimum, experiencing anxiety symptoms.  I can sniff out some kind of "control issue" here, although vaguely, it seems to be there.  My vote:  call EAP, make a (confidential – they always are) convenient appointment (I can hear you now – "but it WONT be convenient!") and be extremely honest and forthcoming if you feel the mental health practitioner is a "psychologically safe" person to talk with.  They are bound by law not to disclose anything you talk about, and can lose their license if they do, so do not leave anything out – the thing you most fear telling them is probably the thing that is bugging you.  Let’s start there. Gary ps:  do you like your job? Ok sorry if I’m repeating on information that is already in this form, I’m new here and am trying to figure out whats up with me. Here is whats going on. I’m male 37 years of age and I’m a manager in the IT field. I worry about everything, even when I go out a good time, movie, concert what ever I  only call it a good time when I get back home and all went well. Problems started about 6 months ago, for no real reason I can think of. Getting more sleep seemed to help, untill I went on a trip last week. I have acid reflux Thinking I might be having a heart attack but no real pain, only pressure. Missed heart beats,or heart races out of control EKG was normal. Pressure under left arm pit, hurts more when breathing out. (whats with this?) Sweet like crazy – afterwords feel shacky and light head Light head many times with out any of the above, coffee makes it worse so I gave up coffee. numbness or tingling in left finger tips. This can happen when I don’t feel I’m in a stress situation Has happened during sex (the racing out of control heart), and I’m sure I wasn’t stressed than!! Oh and I had been drinking as well,feeling really relaxed so I don"t know what gives. Have no symtoms when working out, or when distractedunless I think of it. (perhaps I’m screwed up in the head) So is this a panic attack?

Response:

I think that you are, at the minimum, experiencing anxiety symptoms.  I can sniff out some kind of "control issue" here, although vaguely, it seems to be there.  My vote:  call EAP, make a (confidential – they always are) convenient appointment (I can hear you now – "but it WONT be convenient!") and be extremely honest and forthcoming if you feel the mental health practitioner is a "psychologically safe" person to talk with.  They are bound by law not to disclose anything you talk about, and can lose their license if they do, so do not leave anything out – the thing you most fear telling them is probably the thing that is bugging you.  Let’s start there. Gary ps:  do you like your job?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok sorry if I’m repeating on information that is already in this form, I’m new here and am trying to figure out whats up with me. Here is whats going on. I’m male 37 years of age and I’m a manager in the IT field. I worry about everything, even when I go out a good time, movie, concert what ever I  only call it a good time when I get back home and all went well. Problems started about 6 months ago, for no real reason I can think of. Getting more sleep seemed to help, untill I went on a trip last week. I have acid reflux Thinking I might be having a heart attack but no real pain, only pressure. Missed heart beats,or heart races out of control EKG was normal. Pressure under left arm pit, hurts more when breathing out. (whats with this?) Sweet like crazy – afterwords feel shacky and light head Light head many times with out any of the above, coffee makes it worse so I gave up coffee. numbness or tingling in left finger tips. This can happen when I don’t feel I’m in a stress situation Has happened during sex (the racing out of control heart), and I’m sure I wasn’t stressed than!! Oh and I had been drinking as well,feeling really relaxed so I don"t know what gives. Have no symtoms when working out, or when distractedunless I think of it. (perhaps I’m screwed up in the head) So is this a panic attack?

Response:

Thanks I will take you up on that, what prompted me to start this post was this attack happen to me at the movies last night, all was well and a bunch of kids behind us wouldn"t stop talking through the movie, asked to keep it down but no they were really out of hand and I was getting really mad, and than bang. Pressure on my left side and sweating like crazy. Though I wonder if the sweating is caused by my freaking about the pressure on my left side. This lasted for the remainder of the movie as did the kids acting up. 10mins after I got home it felt like a big release and dam I felt really, really good – sort of a natural high.

Defend your civil liberties!  Get information at http://www.aclu.org, become a member at http://www.aclu.org/join and get active at http://www.aclu.org/action.

Response:

No place for favoritism in state contracts Recent investigations into how state officials have handled some government contracts raise serious concerns about the state’s tolerance for favoritism and possible ethical violations. The worst examples may be those in the Department of Children & Families, but issues at the State Technology Office and Public Service Commission are worrisome, too. All three cases are different, but one question must be asked: Is the state doing enough to discourage and eradicate cronyism, poor contracting processes and dubious ethics? At a time when Florida’s privatizing boom means billions in potential state contracts, taxpayers need to be assured that accountability standards and purchasing safeguards are top priorities. Investigators’ report Here is what state investigators have found in recent weeks:

Being from Buffalo, I noticed today as one of the headlines on ESPN.com that Thurman Thomas was arrested on drug-related charges. I assumed, hey, he’s retired, he’s probably doing coke, or dealing something… Nope. He was at a golf tournament, for charity, and had a half-smoked joint. Half a fucking joint, and he gets arrested for it. Personally, I think it’s stupid. As for "being under the influence of alcohol or marijuana", hey, he wasn’t driving anywhere. Golfing while intoxicated is not a fucking crime. OJ can get away with murder, and yet others can’t get away with half a joint. Kind of funny, but not in a good way. – theoneflasehaddock – Associated Press FAIRHOPE, Ala. — Former NFL running back Thurman Thomas was arrested over the weekend and charged with marijuana possession, according to police. Thomas, who was in town to play in a charity golf tournament, was arrested at the Grand Hotel around 2 a.m. Saturday. He had one partially smoked marijuana cigarette in his possession and appeared to be under the influence of alcohol or marijuana, Fairhope police spokesman Cpl. Craig Sawyer said Monday. Thomas did not immediately return a phone call from The Associated Press Monday. His wife, Patti, said her husband was "caught up in an uncomfortable situation with a couple of his buddies." "Basically, what he has said was some other guys were with him and because it was near his room, he got caught up in it," Patti Thomas said. "He’s not claiming any responsibility for it." Thomas, 37, was charged with second-degree possession of marijuana, a Class A misdemeanor reserved for people who have the drug for personal use. Thomas was booked at Fairhope City Jail and was released in time to play his round of golf Saturday morning. "There was no disorderly conduct or belligerent behavior, and he did not resist arrest," Fairhope police Cpl. Craig Sawyer Monday. In 13 seasons with the Buffalo Bills and Miami Dolphins, Thomas rushed for 12,074 yards and 65 touchdowns. He played in four straight Super Bowls as a member of the Bills, from 1991 through 1994. Thomas was a five-time Pro-Bowl selection and was named the NFL’s Most Valuable Player in 1991. Last year, he admitted to being a recovering alcoholic and said he had spent 28 days in a rehabilitation program in Minnesota.

Response:

That’s republican famly valyoos for ya, flase…..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being from Buffalo, I noticed today as one of the headlines on ESPN.com that Thurman Thomas was arrested on drug-related charges. I assumed, hey, he’s retired, he’s probably doing coke, or dealing something… Nope. He was at a golf tournament, for charity, and had a half-smoked joint. Half a fucking joint, and he gets arrested for it. Personally, I think it’s stupid. As for "being under the influence of alcohol or marijuana", hey, he wasn’t driving anywhere. Golfing while intoxicated is not a fucking crime. OJ can get away with murder, and yet others can’t get away with half a joint. Kind of funny, but not in a good way. – theoneflasehaddock – Associated Press FAIRHOPE, Ala. — Former NFL running back Thurman Thomas was arrested over the weekend and charged with marijuana possession, according to police. Thomas, who was in town to play in a charity golf tournament, was arrested at the Grand Hotel around 2 a.m. Saturday. He had one partially smoked marijuana cigarette in his possession and appeared to be under the influence of alcohol or marijuana, Fairhope police spokesman Cpl. Craig Sawyer said Monday. Thomas did not immediately return a phone call from The Associated Press Monday. His wife, Patti, said her husband was "caught up in an uncomfortable situation with a couple of his buddies." "Basically, what he has said was some other guys were with him and because it was near his room, he got caught up in it," Patti Thomas said. "He’s not claiming any responsibility for it." Thomas, 37, was charged with second-degree possession of marijuana, a Class A misdemeanor reserved for people who have the drug for personal use. Thomas was booked at Fairhope City Jail and was released in time to play his round of golf Saturday morning. "There was no disorderly conduct or belligerent behavior, and he did not resist arrest," Fairhope police Cpl. Craig Sawyer Monday. In 13 seasons with the Buffalo Bills and Miami Dolphins, Thomas rushed for 12,074 yards and 65 touchdowns. He played in four straight Super Bowls as a member of the Bills, from 1991 through 1994. Thomas was a five-time Pro-Bowl selection and was named the NFL’s Most Valuable Player in 1991. Last year, he admitted to being a recovering alcoholic and said he had spent 28 days in a rehabilitation program in Minnesota.

Response:

I saw on the Today Show right after it happened……….st first Matt Lauer who I know from Prov RI, TV 10, made NO mention of TS……..but as soon as I saw Justin I knew he had TS so I watched it…………He got the ame adrenlyn rush I did  as a cop then firefighter………. "Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:9IGdnbGBV4KoburdRVn-gw@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nice article….humble kid! > -Jo > Ripples from a fateful leap > Requests for interviews. Accolades. Justin Gregorich, a teenager with > Tourette’s syndrome, is adjusting to life after he helped save a man > from drowning. He has even made special new friends. > By NORA KOCH, Times Staff Writer > Published April 10, 2004 > ———————————————————————- > ———- > CLEARWATER, Jan. 28 – Justin Gregorich left football practice early, > figured he’d just walk home that day. Some of the other guys were > giving him a hard time in the weight room. It was nothing new for the > 130-pounder who has Tourette’s syndrome and obsessive-compulsive > disorder, but he’d just had enough. > As he trudged home from Countryside High School along State Road 580, > the 14-year-old freshman watched a gold Lincoln Town Car careen off > the road, flatten a 5-foot chain-link fence and rocket into a > retention pond. > Justin took off his sneakers and plunged headfirst into the 62-degree > water to save 82-year-old Raymond J. Kane of Orlando. Along with > Michael McBrayer and Shawn Brady, two mangrove landscapers from > Dunedin, he brought Kane safely to shore. > Within hours, his teenage life, centered on church, family and paint > ball, turned into a circus. The national media got wind of his story; > interview requests poured in from all the major networks, more than a > dozen news talk shows, and magazines, radio stations, newspapers. He > quickly grew tired of the media appearances and turned down all but a > few. > A hundred letters flooded the Gregoriches’ mailbox, thanking Justin, > telling him to ignore the bullies, that he was an inspiration. > Strangers sent checks, CDs, T-shirts, newspaper clippings, a football > signed by a hometown team. They called Justin a hero. > He didn’t think he was a hero. He figured he just did what anyone else > would have done. > * * * > SAFETY HARBOR, 10 weeks later – Justin never went back to football. It > just wasn’t for him, Justin says. Now he’s playing rec soccer. > School is better. "The kids that used to tease me, they come up and > are like, "What’s up?’ "How ya doin’, dude?’ " Justin says assuredly. > He knows he’s a little different from the other kids. He’s always > known that. > But the story that got out in January was about the amazing feat by > the kid with Tourette’s and OCD. At first his mom begged this > newspaper not to print that Justin had those diagnoses. She was afraid > it might make it worse. > Most of those phone calls and letters lauded him for heroism. The > family responded to every one. Of all the accolades and praise, a few > stood out, particularly those from the local, state and national > associations for Tourette’s syndrome. Until then, the Gregorich family > hadn’t even known those resources were out there. > In February, Justin attended a local Tourette’s syndrome support group > meeting. Last month he played in a golf tournament benefit for > Tourette’s syndrome. He spent a day at a special camp, where all the > other kids had Tourette’s syndrome. Justin learned something: > "That other people have the same as me and I’m not the only one who > has it." > And that’s helped him immensely, says his mother, Alice. He has new > friends. There, she doesn’t have to worry about the other kids, what > they are saying, if they’re picking on her son. > In two weeks, the Gregoriches will fly to Washington, D.C., for a > national conference held by the Tourette Syndrome Association. Justin > and his family will be guests of the association, which will recognize > the teen for his heroic deed. > At home, the Gregoriches’ dining room table is covered with the > makings of a few scrapbook volumes, which Alice plans to put together. > Justin already has plowed through a year’s supply of Checkers’ combo > meals; he gave most of them to his friends and family. > In August, he will throw out the first pitch at a Devil Rays game. His > older brother finally realized that, maybe, the little brother had > done something cool. So Justin tried to offer to let his brother throw > the ball. > That’s Justin. > Justin turned 15 on Sunday. On Monday, Alice took him to get his > learner’s permit. They were nervous that he might not pass the > 40-question test, even though he’d been studying almost every night. > Sometimes Justin has a hard time with tests. But no worries, he passed > and drove his mom home. > "I’m glad it’s back to the normal life," Justin said on a Wednesday > afternoon, patiently sitting for an interview when he really wanted to > be playing basketball at the park. > But maybe after that day in January, "normal" will always mean > something different for Justin. > [Last modified April 9, 2004, 11:17:47]

Response:

Nice article….humble kid! -Jo Ripples from a fateful leap Requests for interviews. Accolades. Justin Gregorich, a teenager with Tourette’s syndrome, is adjusting to life after he helped save a man from drowning. He has even made special new friends. By NORA KOCH, Times Staff Writer Published April 10, 2004 ———————————————————————- ———- CLEARWATER, Jan. 28 – Justin Gregorich left football practice early, figured he’d just walk home that day. Some of the other guys were giving him a hard time in the weight room. It was nothing new for the 130-pounder who has Tourette’s syndrome and obsessive-compulsive disorder, but he’d just had enough. As he trudged home from Countryside High School along State Road 580, the 14-year-old freshman watched a gold Lincoln Town Car careen off the road, flatten a 5-foot chain-link fence and rocket into a retention pond. Justin took off his sneakers and plunged headfirst into the 62-degree water to save 82-year-old Raymond J. Kane of Orlando. Along with Michael McBrayer and Shawn Brady, two mangrove landscapers from Dunedin, he brought Kane safely to shore. Within hours, his teenage life, centered on church, family and paint ball, turned into a circus. The national media got wind of his story; interview requests poured in from all the major networks, more than a dozen news talk shows, and magazines, radio stations, newspapers. He quickly grew tired of the media appearances and turned down all but a few. A hundred letters flooded the Gregoriches’ mailbox, thanking Justin, telling him to ignore the bullies, that he was an inspiration. Strangers sent checks, CDs, T-shirts, newspaper clippings, a football signed by a hometown team. They called Justin a hero. He didn’t think he was a hero. He figured he just did what anyone else would have done. * * * SAFETY HARBOR, 10 weeks later – Justin never went back to football. It just wasn’t for him, Justin says. Now he’s playing rec soccer. School is better. "The kids that used to tease me, they come up and are like, "What’s up?’ "How ya doin’, dude?’ " Justin says assuredly. He knows he’s a little different from the other kids. He’s always known that. But the story that got out in January was about the amazing feat by the kid with Tourette’s and OCD. At first his mom begged this newspaper not to print that Justin had those diagnoses. She was afraid it might make it worse. Most of those phone calls and letters lauded him for heroism. The family responded to every one. Of all the accolades and praise, a few stood out, particularly those from the local, state and national associations for Tourette’s syndrome. Until then, the Gregorich family hadn’t even known those resources were out there. In February, Justin attended a local Tourette’s syndrome support group meeting. Last month he played in a golf tournament benefit for Tourette’s syndrome. He spent a day at a special camp, where all the other kids had Tourette’s syndrome. Justin learned something: "That other people have the same as me and I’m not the only one who has it." And that’s helped him immensely, says his mother, Alice. He has new friends. There, she doesn’t have to worry about the other kids, what they are saying, if they’re picking on her son. In two weeks, the Gregoriches will fly to Washington, D.C., for a national conference held by the Tourette Syndrome Association. Justin and his family will be guests of the association, which will recognize the teen for his heroic deed. At home, the Gregoriches’ dining room table is covered with the makings of a few scrapbook volumes, which Alice plans to put together. Justin already has plowed through a year’s supply of Checkers’ combo meals; he gave most of them to his friends and family. In August, he will throw out the first pitch at a Devil Rays game. His older brother finally realized that, maybe, the little brother had done something cool. So Justin tried to offer to let his brother throw the ball. That’s Justin. Justin turned 15 on Sunday. On Monday, Alice took him to get his learner’s permit. They were nervous that he might not pass the 40-question test, even though he’d been studying almost every night. Sometimes Justin has a hard time with tests. But no worries, he passed and drove his mom home. "I’m glad it’s back to the normal life," Justin said on a Wednesday afternoon, patiently sitting for an interview when he really wanted to be playing basketball at the park. But maybe after that day in January, "normal" will always mean something different for Justin. [Last modified April 9, 2004, 11:17:47]

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Nice follow-up article.  I saw the original story (here?) not sure, maybe on the news, when it happened.  It was a little bit different though.  IIRC, they said he was the first into the pond when the car went in and the only one smart enough to take off his shoes and outerwear.  The other 2 men jumped in, then couldn’t make it to the car because their clothing was dragging them down. It is also nice that they had a follow-up on what has happened since. thanks, jodi "Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:9IGdnbGBV4KoburdRVn-gw@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nice article….humble kid! > -Jo > Ripples from a fateful leap > Requests for interviews. Accolades. Justin Gregorich, a teenager with > Tourette’s syndrome, is adjusting to life after he helped save a man > from drowning. He has even made special new friends. > By NORA KOCH, Times Staff Writer > Published April 10, 2004 > ———————————————————————- > ———- > CLEARWATER, Jan. 28 – Justin Gregorich left football practice early, > figured he’d just walk home that day. Some of the other guys were > giving him a hard time in the weight room. It was nothing new for the > 130-pounder who has Tourette’s syndrome and obsessive-compulsive > disorder, but he’d just had enough. > As he trudged home from Countryside High School along State Road 580, > the 14-year-old freshman watched a gold Lincoln Town Car careen off > the road, flatten a 5-foot chain-link fence and rocket into a > retention pond. > Justin took off his sneakers and plunged headfirst into the 62-degree > water to save 82-year-old Raymond J. Kane of Orlando. Along with > Michael McBrayer and Shawn Brady, two mangrove landscapers from > Dunedin, he brought Kane safely to shore. > Within hours, his teenage life, centered on church, family and paint > ball, turned into a circus. The national media got wind of his story; > interview requests poured in from all the major networks, more than a > dozen news talk shows, and magazines, radio stations, newspapers. He > quickly grew tired of the media appearances and turned down all but a > few. > A hundred letters flooded the Gregoriches’ mailbox, thanking Justin, > telling him to ignore the bullies, that he was an inspiration. > Strangers sent checks, CDs, T-shirts, newspaper clippings, a football > signed by a hometown team. They called Justin a hero. > He didn’t think he was a hero. He figured he just did what anyone else > would have done. > * * * > SAFETY HARBOR, 10 weeks later – Justin never went back to football. It > just wasn’t for him, Justin says. Now he’s playing rec soccer. > School is better. "The kids that used to tease me, they come up and > are like, "What’s up?’ "How ya doin’, dude?’ " Justin says assuredly. > He knows he’s a little different from the other kids. He’s always > known that. > But the story that got out in January was about the amazing feat by > the kid with Tourette’s and OCD. At first his mom begged this > newspaper not to print that Justin had those diagnoses. She was afraid > it might make it worse. > Most of those phone calls and letters lauded him for heroism. The > family responded to every one. Of all the accolades and praise, a few > stood out, particularly those from the local, state and national > associations for Tourette’s syndrome. Until then, the Gregorich family > hadn’t even known those resources were out there. > In February, Justin attended a local Tourette’s syndrome support group > meeting. Last month he played in a golf tournament benefit for > Tourette’s syndrome. He spent a day at a special camp, where all the > other kids had Tourette’s syndrome. Justin learned something: > "That other people have the same as me and I’m not the only one who > has it." > And that’s helped him immensely, says his mother, Alice. He has new > friends. There, she doesn’t have to worry about the other kids, what > they are saying, if they’re picking on her son. > In two weeks, the Gregoriches will fly to Washington, D.C., for a > national conference held by the Tourette Syndrome Association. Justin > and his family will be guests of the association, which will recognize > the teen for his heroic deed. > At home, the Gregoriches’ dining room table is covered with the > makings of a few scrapbook volumes, which Alice plans to put together. > Justin already has plowed through a year’s supply of Checkers’ combo > meals; he gave most of them to his friends and family. > In August, he will throw out the first pitch at a Devil Rays game. His > older brother finally realized that, maybe, the little brother had > done something cool. So Justin tried to offer to let his brother throw > the ball. > That’s Justin. > Justin turned 15 on Sunday. On Monday, Alice took him to get his > learner’s permit. They were nervous that he might not pass the > 40-question test, even though he’d been studying almost every night. > Sometimes Justin has a hard time with tests. But no worries, he passed > and drove his mom home. > "I’m glad it’s back to the normal life," Justin said on a Wednesday > afternoon, patiently sitting for an interview when he really wanted to > be playing basketball at the park. > But maybe after that day in January, "normal" will always mean > something different for Justin. > [Last modified April 9, 2004, 11:17:47]

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If all else fails – just use the clock radio (IIRC, most hotels have them) and set it to a non-existent radio station.  The static noise from that is equal to the ‘white noise’ that most of the sound soothers replicate. Unless you want the other sounds – traffic, surf, crickets, rainshower…. the list goes on! Ah yes, the soothing sounds of traffic to put you right to sleep

Actually, it can!  Two places I’ve lived were very close to busy freeways, and the noise served to block out all but the noisiest of neighbors, and was steady enough to be soothing.  (Although there WAS the morning I awakened early to "trample, trample, MOO-O-O-O, trample, trample, MOO-O-O-O", which was anything BUT "soothing" – the highway patrol had pulled over a cattle truck, more or less in a direct line with my bedroom window!)

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Lots of posts telling this person how to be more comfortable with sound machines or even sprinklers which would just send the cats to the neighbours but those cats as howling for a reason.  If its indeed howling and not meowing at the door to come in then I garentee you pretty soon your problem will get bigger and their will be feral kittens to contend with.

But the OP doesn’t know for sure that they ARE "feral" – at least I believe he said not (I can’t find the original post).  If they belong to someone, then incipient kittens would be the owner’s problem, wouldn’t they?  Even people irresponsible enough not to have non-pedegree cats altered usually make some provision for the resulting kittens.  (That may simply be handing them over to animal control, which is regrettable, but they won’t become a neighborhood problem.)   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  These cats can’t be ferals and belong to someone at the same time.  Do you see them during the day have you tried to approach them at all?  It sounds to me like you either have two males fighting for teritory or you have a female in season and a male chasing after her.  Its a noisy process, but traping and getting those cats neutered would stop the noise, if you did that however you’d have to feed them as long as they remained.  Otherwise take them to the shelter its better then watching their kittens die, or having them suffer from diseases and die slowly. My 2 kids are driving me nuts when 2 strays come to my downstairs patio and start howling at 2 am. My kids only go outside supervised and both Bonnie and Squeak are "fixed" so I’m pretty sure it’s not that the strays are wanting….well you know.  Anyway, Squeak, being the brut he is,could probably kick their butts outta here, but I’m not stupid enough to take that chance.  This is an area under new development, so it could be the ferals belong to someone, but why the hell would they let them out all night? There’s coyoties, fox, and other preditors around.  I don’t want to trap and take them to the shelter, but I need to sleep at night. BTW, the shelter, only one within 50 miles has a 72 hour policy.  Why the hell are they picking my patio?? And what can I do?

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Then isn’t that the owner’s prerogative?  There are any number of us who believe that cats do best, health-wise, when allowed to be "indoor/outdoor", and to come and go at will (and there have been scientific studies that appear to prove it).  Unless you KNOW the cats are ferals, you have NO legal right to trap and dispose of them!

Leaving the indoor/outdoor issue alone, how does someone ever know for sure if the cat is a stray?  They don’t wear signs, you have to judge by behaviour and by asking around.  Talk to people ask them about the cats how long they’ve been seeing them ask them if they know who they might belong to.  Knock on doors if need be throughout the area first see if someone is feeding them.  Quite often people do know where they came from I hear all the time they belonged to this person but they moved away and left the cats behind.  You have to check into the situation I’m sure you aren’t the only person who has seen or heard them. Also shelters do this all the time and they do keep lists of missing cats and attempt to find their owner even if only by checking their lost records.  Contact someone local for advice as well.

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But the OP doesn’t know for sure that they ARE "feral" – at least I believe he said not (I can’t find the original post).  If they belong to someone, then incipient kittens would be the owner’s problem, wouldn’t they?  Even people irresponsible enough not to have non-pedegree cats altered usually make some provision for the resulting kittens.  (That may simply be handing them over to animal control, which is regrettable, but they won’t become a neighborhood problem.)  

Unfortunately that’s only true if they choose to take responsibility for the kittens.  Most people do some people don’t and there’s not much you can do about it when they don’t.  I’ve seen people wash their hands of their pets I spayed and eventually rescued two females that had been breeding for two years with not a single surviving kitten between them.   I knew who the owners were they still lived there where they threw the cats out from, they had been reported and nothing was ever done.

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Mine has both a ‘continuous on’ and a ’sleep timer’ that slowly lowers the volume until it shuts off in about an hour, — The ONE and ONLY lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a | pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. | | Should one go through a window at 37,000 ft, the passengers sitting nearby | better have their seatbelts fastened. | | http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/1973/731103-0.htm | | http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR75-02.pdf An engine assembly is not a bullet. The plastic in an aircraft window is shatterproof. If you fire a bullet through the window it will just make a small hole in the plastic. This was in fact recently demonstrated on the program "Mythbusters" in a pressurized airplane. An airliner will be able to maintain pressurization even with several bullet holes in it. Airliners have flown all over the country with bullet holes in them and no one even knew it until the skin was inspected during a maintenance cycle. Bullet holes in airliners are nothing more than cosmetic blemishes.

Give me a few weeks consultation (you pay for it) with the designers of a specific aircraft, and I’m pretty sure I can find a place to aim the gun that WILL result in just about any kind of air disaster you want to specify.

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They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot,  or an AMRAAM-armed F-16? Remember that the passengers themselves are a line of defense too.  I expect that the pilots will only hear of a hijacking attempt after the passengers finish tying him up.   Fine, They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot,  or an AMRAAM-armed F-16? Jim

Glock armed pilot. SRS (There’s always THAT last response)

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| | Give me a few weeks consultation (you pay for it) with the designers of a | specific aircraft, and I’m pretty sure I can find a place to aim the gun | that WILL result in just about any kind of air disaster you want to specify. And the point of that is….? OK. The people who carry guns on airplanes are supposedly protecting us from terrorism. We will ignore the fact that so far the guns have only been used to threaten and terrify innocent passengers who wanted to do such nefarious things as go to the bathroom. There was a time, before 9/11, when it was public policy to comply with hijackers’ demands. Never mind that this policy was wrong, immoral, and had already resulted in hundreds of innocent deaths. We had plenty of warning that terrorists were willing to kill passengers and destroy aircraft and that sometimes this was their only objective, but we ignored it. Since 9/11 the policy has been resistance. If unauthorized persons gain control of an aircraft and the passengers and/or crew cannot get that control back, then the aircraft will be blown out of the sky. Those who worry about decompression or any other damage that a stray bullet might do should ponder what kind of explosive decompression and damage will accompany a burst of machine gun fire or a Sidewinder missile. The only question is whether you give the people on board a fighting chance to do something about it before the Air Force does it for them. Locked cabin doors or not, the moment a hijacker announces himself that pilot is going to inform the military. If the hijacker is not subdued before the military gets there the aircraft will be destroyed and everyone aboard will be killed, whether the hijacker manages to break into the cockpit or not. If it appears that the hijacker will gain control of the aircraft before the military can stop him, the pilots will destroy the airplane. It only takes a few seconds. It really does seem idiotic to worry about the damage from a stray 9 mm when the only alternative is certain destruction. If you can’t handle the idea of guns on board then you better just give up flying. There are going to be guns on board and there are even bigger guns keeping you in their sights. Personally, I think this policy will cause terrorists to give up hijacking almost completely. They will instead focus on how to smuggle bombs on board. Not as effective as crashing into, say, the Washington Monument, but it still disrupts the transportation system and encourages repressive measures.

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Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression.

Should one go through a window at 37,000 ft, the passengers sitting nearby better have their seatbelts fastened. http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/1973/731103-0.htm http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR75-02.pdf

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Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. Should one go through a window at 37,000 ft, the passengers sitting nearby better have their seatbelts fastened.

That’s "requested" during any flight, regardless of the altitude. After all, a pressurized aircraft hull is a pressurized aircraft hull.  SPEED "might" be a different factor!  :) Regardless, an expended "bullet" has YET to have ever been found to take out an entire window and it’s supporting structure, like the example you and the other idiot (Byker) gave, when shrapnel from a disintegrating Turbined Jet Engine took out enough area. "According t o a witness, the occupant of the seat was partially forced through the window opening and was temporarily retained i n t h i s position by h i s seatbelt. Efforts t o pull the passenger back into the airplane by another passenger were un- successful, and the occupant of seat 17H was subsequently forced entirely through the cabin window." Your cite! http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR75-02.pdf "Forced?" As in Pushed?  :  Anyway…. Look at the SIZE of the "missing window!"  It’s not just the fucking window that is "missing", you simpletons! The entire STRUCTURE around the window is fucking gone! Also note, that it only lists that the one passenger that was "sucked out", was only listed as a "male passenger."  Low old, or more importantly, how LARGE was this person?  Was it an infant perhaps? Minny Me’s evil twin? Regardless, while still a sad incident, a bullet could NOT have caused that much catatrophic damage….unless by chance the stray bullet somehow magicaly exited the plane and somehow hit the engine’s turbine’s, causing it to recreate a simular shredding of the fuselage. I’ll take my chances with having armed pilots, sky marshals, and passengers like me who wish to be armed, thank you!

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| | Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a | pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. | | Should one go through a window at 37,000 ft, the passengers sitting nearby | better have their seatbelts fastened. | | http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/1973/731103-0.htm | | http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR75-02.pdf An engine assembly is not a bullet. The plastic in an aircraft window is shatterproof. If you fire a bullet through the window it will just make a small hole in the plastic. This was in fact recently demonstrated on the program "Mythbusters" in a pressurized airplane. An airliner will be able to maintain pressurization even with several bullet holes in it. Airliners have flown all over the country with bullet holes in them and no one even knew it until the skin was inspected during a maintenance cycle. Bullet holes in airliners are nothing more than cosmetic blemishes.

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Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists. Personally, I’d rather they tried to stop armed terrorists boarding the plane in the first place.

They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot,  or an AMRAAM-armed F-16? Jim

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Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists. Personally, I’d rather they tried to stop armed terrorists boarding the plane in the first place. John

It worked real well at Logan Airport in Boston. Kennedy has let millions of Muslims flood into America and a bunch of them work at Logan.  They probably handed out the box cutters to their muslim brothers with their boarding passes. Arm the pilots – all of them now.  Give the co-pilots a stun gun. Deputize American men/passengers for each flight and give them billy clubs.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists. Personally, I’d rather they tried to stop armed terrorists boarding the plane in the first place. John It worked real well at Logan Airport in Boston. Kennedy has let millions of Muslims flood into America and a bunch of them work at Logan.  They probably handed out the box cutters to their muslim brothers with their boarding passes. Arm the pilots – all of them now.  Give the co-pilots a stun gun. Deputize American men/passengers

You’re right, I wouldn’t arm the women either!   for each flight and give them billy clubs.

John

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Evidence examined thus far indicates that the Payne Stewart crash was decompression, but not explosive.  The old Lears had some interesting systems and according to some reports the company had not maintained its airplanes all that well or worked off some of the squawks.  Those who have flown the old Lears can give a number of different scenarios that would generate the gradual loss of cabin pressure that doomed the Stewart flight. Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression.  The B-29 crews demonstrated that in Korea and WWII. All the best, Rick

Stewart’s plane supposedly had a slow leak due to poor maintainance. The crew and passengers passed out due to lack of oxygen. http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/10/26/stewart.crash.sp/ I know someone who has worked on military jets, small exec jets like lears and high end modern sorts cars.  He said modern sports cars like Porsches are light years ahead of Lears and other exec jets in technology. He left commercial aviation because companies would cut corners on maintaining the exec jets.  This is why Payne Stewart died.

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[snip] S’matter, Spamhead, did rec.motorcycles.harley get boring?  Now be a good little troll and get back in the killfile

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Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists. Personally, I’d rather they tried to stop armed terrorists boarding the plane in the first place. They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot,  or an AMRAAM-armed F-16?

Remember that the passengers themselves are a line of defense too.  I expect that the pilots will only hear of a hijacking attempt after the passengers finish tying him up.   "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

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They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot,  or an AMRAAM-armed F-16? Remember that the passengers themselves are a line of defense too.  I expect that the pilots will only hear of a hijacking attempt after the passengers finish tying him up.  

Fine, They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot,  or an AMRAAM-armed F-16? Jim

Response:

the pressurization system didn’t work (otherwise the window wouldn’t have iced)

I wish that I could have a dollar for every time that I have had the cockpit windows frost-up (inside) in the old Boeings with full pressurization at FL350. Bob Moore

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the pressurization system didn’t work (otherwise the window wouldn’t have iced) I wish that I could have a dollar for every time that I have had the cockpit windows frost-up (inside) in the old Boeings with full pressurization at FL350.

Never having flown a pressurized aircraft, I can’t speak from any experience.  Here is what the NTSB said about this accident, however: "When bleed air is supplied to the cabin, the cockpit windshield receives a constant flow of warm air that prevents or removes condensation, regardless of the ambient temperature or pressure in the cabin. Thus, the windshield would be relatively clear following depressurization from a breach or other undesired outflow from the cabin with continued bleed air supply to the cabin, whereas condensation could form and remain on the windshield following a depressurization caused by a loss of bleed air inflow to the cabin. Therefore, the accident airplane most likely did not have an inflow of bleed air to the cabin." Todd Pattist (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.) ___ Make a commitment to learn something from every flight. Share what you learn.

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And so did a TV show called  Mythbusters just last night.   Took an old 727 hulk and over pressured it to 8 psi then shot through the skin.  No explosive decompression.  Patched it up, and did it again but through the window, again no explosive decompression.  For the third try they put a 100 grain shape charge on the joint brtween a vertical and horizontal frame member.  Damned near cut the plane in half when the skin peeled off. Les F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression.  The B-29 crews demonstrated that in Korea and WWII. All the best, Rick

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Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And so did a TV show called  Mythbusters just last night.   Took an old 727 hulk and over pressured it to 8 psi then shot through the skin.  No explosive decompression.  Patched it up, and did it again but through the window, again no explosive decompression.  For the third try they put a 100 grain shape charge on the joint brtween a vertical and horizontal frame member.  Damned near cut the plane in half when the skin peeled off. Les F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret) Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression.  The B-29 crews demonstrated that in Korea and WWII. All the best, Rick

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Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists.

Personally, I’d rather they tried to stop armed terrorists boarding the plane in the first place. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And so did a TV show called  Mythbusters just last night.   Took an old 727 hulk and over pressured it to 8 psi then shot through the skin.  No explosive decompression.  Patched it up, and did it again but through the window, again no explosive decompression.  For the third try they put a 100 grain shape charge on the joint brtween a vertical and horizontal frame member.  Damned near cut the plane in half when the skin peeled off. Les F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret) Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression.  The B-29 crews demonstrated that in Korea and WWII. All the best, Rick

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Evidence examined thus far indicates that the Payne Stewart crash was decompression, but not explosive.  The old Lears had some interesting systems and according to some reports the company had not maintained its airplanes all that well or worked off some of the squawks.  Those who have flown the old Lears can give a number of different scenarios that would generate the gradual loss of cabin pressure that doomed the Stewart flight.

I read the accident report and didn’t see that conclusion. The cabin altitude aural warning was on for the last 30 minutes of the flight, until it descended below the alarm limit after one engine ran out of fuel.  One would think if it was a slow leak they would have heard the alarm and descended or donned oxy in time.  They did seem to conclude that it was not a simple  cabin breach as the windshield icing seen by the chase flights would not have occurred if bleed air had been supplied to the cabin.  I just didn’t see any clear indication of the time scale of the loss of pressure or whether it was explosive, sudden or slow.  The simple summary was that the cabin lost pressure for unknown reasons, the pressurization system didn’t work (otherwise the window wouldn’t have iced) and the crew wasn’t able to respond by descending or donning oxy, again for unknown reasons. Todd Pattist (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.) ___ Make a commitment to learn something from every flight. Share what you learn.

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Evidence examined thus far indicates that the Payne Stewart crash was decompression, but not explosive.  The old Lears had some interesting systems and according to some reports the company had not maintained its airplanes all that well or worked off some of the squawks.  Those who have flown the old Lears can give a number of different scenarios that would generate the gradual loss of cabin pressure that doomed the Stewart flight. Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression.  The B-29 crews demonstrated that in Korea and WWII. All the best, Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those delightfully quirky fellows on Myth Busters decided to play explosive decompression from a gunshot with a DC-9. They pressurized it and fired through the skin from the inside. Nothing. They pressurized it and fired through a window. Nothing. Oh, well. Looks like a big, "Neener! Neener" goes out to certain folks. Sure numbnuts, try it in actual flight and see: By Brian Knowlton    International Herald Tribune WASHINGTON – Investigators were sifting Tuesday through a small, blackened crater in a South Dakota pasture where the private jet carrying the golfer Payne Stewart and five other people had crashed, ending an eerie flight that millions of people, including Mr. Stewart’s wife, had followed live on television. Bodies still were being recovered from the site. The Lear 35 had taken off Monday in Orlando, Florida, on a flight that was supposed to carry Mr. Stewart, a two-time U.S. Open champion, to a Houston golf tournament. But it soon deviated from its flight plan, heading due northwest and apparently soaring far above the altitudes for which it normally is certified. Air-traffic controllers were unable to summon any response by radio. As the plane continued on a doomed 1,400-mile (2250-kilometer) trajectory across the U.S. heartland, its windows frozen over and its passengers quite possibly dead, military jets were scrambled to shadow it, and news reports followed its progress. People in the Dakotas, directly on its path, kept one wary eye on their televisions, another on the skies. Among those listening in horror was Mr. Stewart’s wife, Tracey, a native of Australia. From their home in Orlando, she tried to reach her husband via cellular phone, according to her brother, Mike Ferguson. ”It’s just really bad for my sister to be watching it on CNN, knowing that it was her husband on board,” he told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. Mr. Stewart, whose knickers and colorful tam-o’-shanters made him one of the most recognized of professional golfers, was co-owner of the plane. Also on the plane were his agents, Robert Fraley and Van Ardan, and the pilots, Michael Kling and Stephanie Bellegarrigue. Bruce Borland, a golf-course designer who worked for the professional golfer Jack Nicklaus, was aboard as well, Mr. Nicklaus said. Officials with the National Transportation Safety Board, who flew Monday to Mina, South Dakota, in the north-central part of the state, said it might be some time before an explanation emerged. ”It’s not going to be an easy investigation,” said Robert Francis, vice chairman of the safety board. ”It looks like the aircraft was pretty much vertical when it hit the ground. The ground is soft, and it went in fairly deep.” The crash site, in the middle of a flat wheat field, was cordoned off. Black cows grazed nearby as about 20 investigators in blue, yellow and white jumpsuits sifted through the tangled debris. Aviation specialists speculated that the plane might have suffered a sudden decompression at high altitude, which could have rendered the two pilots, as well as the passengers, unconscious within seconds. In that scenario, bitterly cold stratospheric air, minus 70 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 56 centigrade) at the altitudes involved, could have rushed into the plane, causing windows to fog and freeze. Air force pilots, sent aloft by air-traffic controllers who were concerned about the small craft’s movements, had flown within 200 feet (60 meters) of the craft and said that the cockpit windshield appeared heavily frosted. But they reported none of the signs of structural damage that an explosive decompression would involve. Autopsies should show whether the victims had inhaled smoke, but not whether they had suffered from a drop in air pressure, said Dr. Brad Randall, a special investigator for South Dakota. The coroner’s office, which has removed tissue samples, might not be able to determine exactly when death occurred, he said. Mr. Francis said that sudden decompression was ”one possibility.” But, he said, ”we try to be driven by the evidence that we find.” Air-traffic controllers had routed other planes around the Learjet and cleared the skies below. Authorities said the Learjet, apparently on autopilot, was ”porpoising,” fluctuating between altitudes as low as 22,000 feet and as high as 51,000 feet. In grim helplessness, the air force pilots escorted the plane until they saw it roll over, apparently out of fuel, and plunge down through the clouds at a nearly vertical angle. The plane, traveling at perhaps 200 miles per hour (320 kilometers per hour), then slammed into the rain-softened ground. The impact left a blackened crater in the pasture about 40 feet long, 30 feet wide and 10 feet deep, Mr. Francis said. The task of identifying and recovering the thousands of bits of wreckage, he added, will be ”a fairly complicated issue.” ”We want to make very sure that before we start touching things that we are certain that we’re not destroying some evidence that we otherwise could get,” Mr. Francis said. The Pentagon, according to some reports, had considered shooting down the plane in the event that it endangered a populated area. But the Defense Department spokesman, Kenneth Bacon, said Tuesday that it had been clear to the air force pilots that the plane was on a trajectory over sparsely inhabited areas. ”It never reached that point,” he said. Investigators hoped to recover the airplane’s cockpit voice recorder, which remained buried in the wreckage, but Mr. Francis acknowledged that it was unlikely to offer any clues. Its tape loop records over itself every 30 minutes, and the plane flew in silence for nearly four hours. The plane carried no electronic data recorder. It was unclear whether the air force planes had taken videotapes or photographs of the jet, and Mr. Francis appealed to local residents who might have filmed the crash to come forward. The plane, which had passed two safety inspections in the past week, had logged 10,000 hours in 23 years of flight without significant mechanical problems, the Federal Aviation Administration said. No Lear 35, a twin-engine, eight-passenger plane, had been involved in a fatal accident since 1983. Of eight nonfatal accidents, none involved depressurization. As the golfing community mourned Mr. Stewart, the start of the tournament in Houston was postponed. ”This is a tremendous loss for the entire golfing community and all of sports,” said Tim Finchem, commissioner of the PGA Tour. Bush Admin is dragging it’s feet in arming airline pilots.  Not dragging their feet on letting millions of illegals into America for loads of freebies.  The only problem is Democrats are more evil than Republicans. — "Naturally, the common people don’t  want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."            - Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshall

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Sure numbnuts, try it in actual flight and see:

"Sudden decompression" and "explosive decompression" are two totally different things. George Patterson      Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What’s usually said is      "Hummmmm… That’s interesting…."

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Payne Stewart’s plane did not have an explosive decompression.

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I said it decompressed for any number of reasons. I didn’t use the word "explosive" in my original reply. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Payne Stewart’s plane did not have an explosive decompression.

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Those delightfully quirky fellows on Myth Busters decided to play explosive decompression from a gunshot with a DC-9. They pressurized it and fired through the skin from the inside. Nothing. They pressurized it and fired through a window. Nothing. Oh, well. Looks like a big, "Neener! Neener" goes out to certain folks. Sure numbnuts, try it in actual flight and see:

This has nothing do with that controlled experiment. Payne Stewart’s a/c could have decompressed for any number of other reasons and the size of the leak if that’s it was. In a smaller plane, the results could be more catastrophic esp at the higher altitudes. By Brian Knowlton    International Herald Tribune WASHINGTON – Investigators were sifting Tuesday through a small, blackened crater in a South Dakota pasture where the private jet carrying the golfer Payne Stewart and five other people had crashed, ending an eerie flight that millions of people, including Mr. Stewart’s wife, had followed live on television. Bodies still were being recovered from the site.

snip, and removed irrelevant crossposting

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Those delightfully quirky fellows on Myth Busters decided to play explosive decompression from a gunshot with a DC-9. They pressurized it and fired through the skin from the inside. Nothing. They pressurized it and fired through a window. Nothing. Oh, well. Looks like a big, "Neener! Neener" goes out to certain folks.

Sure numbnuts, try it in actual flight and see: By Brian Knowlton    International Herald Tribune WASHINGTON – Investigators were sifting Tuesday through a small, blackened crater in a South Dakota pasture where the private jet carrying the golfer Payne Stewart and five other people had crashed, ending an eerie flight that millions of people, including Mr. Stewart’s wife, had followed live on television. Bodies still were being recovered from the site. The Lear 35 had taken off Monday in Orlando, Florida, on a flight that was supposed to carry Mr. Stewart, a two-time U.S. Open champion, to a Houston golf tournament. But it soon deviated from its flight plan, heading due northwest and apparently soaring far above the altitudes for which it normally is certified. Air-traffic controllers were unable to summon any response by radio. As the plane continued on a doomed 1,400-mile (2250-kilometer) trajectory across the U.S. heartland, its windows frozen over and its passengers quite possibly dead, military jets were scrambled to shadow it, and news reports followed its progress. People in the Dakotas, directly on its path, kept one wary eye on their televisions, another on the skies. Among those listening in horror was Mr. Stewart’s wife, Tracey, a native of Australia. From their home in Orlando, she tried to reach her husband via cellular phone, according to her brother, Mike Ferguson. ”It’s just really bad for my sister to be watching it on CNN, knowing that it was her husband on board,” he told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. Mr. Stewart, whose knickers and colorful tam-o’-shanters made him one of the most recognized of professional golfers, was co-owner of the plane. Also on the plane were his agents, Robert Fraley and Van Ardan, and the pilots, Michael Kling and Stephanie Bellegarrigue. Bruce Borland, a golf-course designer who worked for the professional golfer Jack Nicklaus, was aboard as well, Mr. Nicklaus said. Officials with the National Transportation Safety Board, who flew Monday to Mina, South Dakota, in the north-central part of the state, said it might be some time before an explanation emerged. ”It’s not going to be an easy investigation,” said Robert Francis, vice chairman of the safety board. ”It looks like the aircraft was pretty much vertical when it hit the ground. The ground is soft, and it went in fairly deep.” The crash site, in the middle of a flat wheat field, was cordoned off. Black cows grazed nearby as about 20 investigators in blue, yellow and white jumpsuits sifted through the tangled debris. Aviation specialists speculated that the plane might have suffered a sudden decompression at high altitude, which could have rendered the two pilots, as well as the passengers, unconscious within seconds. In that scenario, bitterly cold stratospheric air, minus 70 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 56 centigrade) at the altitudes involved, could have rushed into the plane, causing windows to fog and freeze. Air force pilots, sent aloft by air-traffic controllers who were concerned about the small craft’s movements, had flown within 200 feet (60 meters) of the craft and said that the cockpit windshield appeared heavily frosted. But they reported none of the signs of structural damage that an explosive decompression would involve. Autopsies should show whether the victims had inhaled smoke, but not whether they had suffered from a drop in air pressure, said Dr. Brad Randall, a special investigator for South Dakota. The coroner’s office, which has removed tissue samples, might not be able to determine exactly when death occurred, he said. Mr. Francis said that sudden decompression was ”one possibility.” But, he said, ”we try to be driven by the evidence that we find.” Air-traffic controllers had routed other planes around the Learjet and cleared the skies below. Authorities said the Learjet, apparently on autopilot, was ”porpoising,” fluctuating between altitudes as low as 22,000 feet and as high as 51,000 feet. In grim helplessness, the air force pilots escorted the plane until they saw it roll over, apparently out of fuel, and plunge down through the clouds at a nearly vertical angle. The plane, traveling at perhaps 200 miles per hour (320 kilometers per hour), then slammed into the rain-softened ground. The impact left a blackened crater in the pasture about 40 feet long, 30 feet wide and 10 feet deep, Mr. Francis said. The task of identifying and recovering the thousands of bits of wreckage, he added, will be ”a fairly complicated issue.” ”We want to make very sure that before we start touching things that we are certain that we’re not destroying some evidence that we otherwise could get,” Mr. Francis said. The Pentagon, according to some reports, had considered shooting down the plane in the event that it endangered a populated area. But the Defense Department spokesman, Kenneth Bacon, said Tuesday that it had been clear to the air force pilots that the plane was on a trajectory over sparsely inhabited areas. ”It never reached that point,” he said. Investigators hoped to recover the airplane’s cockpit voice recorder, which remained buried in the wreckage, but Mr. Francis acknowledged that it was unlikely to offer any clues. Its tape loop records over itself every 30 minutes, and the plane flew in silence for nearly four hours. The plane carried no electronic data recorder. It was unclear whether the air force planes had taken videotapes or photographs of the jet, and Mr. Francis appealed to local residents who might have filmed the crash to come forward. The plane, which had passed two safety inspections in the past week, had logged 10,000 hours in 23 years of flight without significant mechanical problems, the Federal Aviation Administration said. No Lear 35, a twin-engine, eight-passenger plane, had been involved in a fatal accident since 1983. Of eight nonfatal accidents, none involved depressurization. As the golfing community mourned Mr. Stewart, the start of the tournament in Houston was postponed. ”This is a tremendous loss for the entire golfing community and all of sports,” said Tim Finchem, commissioner of the PGA Tour. Bush Admin is dragging it’s feet in arming airline pilots.  Not dragging their feet on letting millions of illegals into America for loads of freebies.  The only problem is Democrats are more evil than Republicans.

– "Naturally, the common people don’t  want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."            - Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshall

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How exciting was that? You can’t do better than birdieing a playoff hole twice. 8-0!! — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

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How exciting was that? You can’t do better than birdieing a playoff hole twice. 8-0!! — Cheers Colin Wilson

Took some piccies Allenby in water on 17 http://members.ozemail.com.au/~anfield/Huntingdalemod%20004.jpg 1st playoff hole http://members.ozemail.com.au/~anfield/Huntingdalemod%20012.jpg http://members.ozemail.com.au/~anfield/Huntingdalemod%20017.jpg http://members.ozemail.com.au/~anfield/Huntingdalemod%20018.jpg http://members.ozemail.com.au/~anfield/Huntingdalemod%20018b.jpg 2nd playoff hole http://members.ozemail.com.au/~anfield/Huntingdalemod%20025.jpg 9th hole http://members.ozemail.com.au/~anfield/Huntingdalemod%20033.jpg 4th hole http://members.ozemail.com.au/~anfield/Huntingdalemod%20036.jpg Adrian

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rec.sport.golf with his/her presence, and uttered…..: How exciting was that? You can’t do better than birdieing a playoff hole twice. 8-0!!

Pretty damn impressive record in play-offs! Regretably, I was out at a BBQ at a friends place who does not subscribe to the sports channels — Mad’Doug Trentham Camp GC, New Zealand RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=stokesd Please remove the apostrophe (‘) to email me

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Took some piccies

Thanks, good pics. You must have got a great view of the play-off. I can’t remember many Oz events with as good a finish as that one. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

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Took some piccies Thanks, good pics. You must have got a great view of the play-off. I can’t remember many Oz events with as good a finish as that one. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

Ladies Masters when  Sorenstam beat Webb after playing 18th 3 or 4 times has to be up there. Tony

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How exciting was that? You can’t do better than birdieing a playoff hole twice. 8-0!!

No doubt about it, Robert is a changed character. In earlier days he’d have self-destructed with some of the shots he played down the stretch.   But during the entire week he was gentlemanly, complimentary to the course superintendent and the support people etc. I was really very impressed at his demeanour, shows how much the US Tour has changed him. And what golf! First Ogilvie (boy, is he talented or what?), then Allenby, Parry, Senior, Nitties, Scott, Mosely, Lonard, Pampling, Allen, Buckle (what a prospect!), and we wind up with 4 to play off. I remember the Masters being criticised when they started the tournament about their slogan "The tradition continues". Well, 25 years on, ain’t it the truth. More cliffhangers that any golf tournament held in this country, great course, birdies, bogeys and all in between. Great TV, and I’d love to be in the gallery. I’m stoked! Corowakid

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They think, as do I, that there isn’t a more gullible, materialistic, socially irresponsible demagraphic on the planet, than a dull witted golfer.  So, when do you pick the new wheels up, anyway?

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That’s why whenever I watch a golf tournament live, I have another channel set to "flash back" during the commercials.  In this case the LPGA tournament provided a good alternative in the early going and the NFL at the end.

One trouble with this tournament is that we have to be careful which golf web sites we look at before watching it "live".  Some will tell us the final score before the broadcast.

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Must be aimed at senile hippies with brains fried from too many drugs

Hey, Leave Randy alone !! PS. Ugly my ass!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve been watching the President’s Cup on NBC and it seems like they’ve shown that Chrysler Pacifica commercial about 1,000 times….probably 6 or 7 times just during the sudden death playoff between Tiger and Ernie Els. Heck, I think I’ve got that thing memorized word for word now ("I see a man who knows where he’s going in the world…"). Why would they show a single commercial so many times in a given telecast? I think that even if I *had* been interested in buying a Pacifica to begin with, being force-fed that commercial so many times would have gone a long way toward making me consider another manufacturer. Oh well, I enjoyed the golf.  :-) Ray Pezzi Traverse City, MI

It is called mass marketing. That given, think of who the target audience would be for that product. They state, beyond the SUV, and it appeared they were your typical 4 person family, soccer mom, daughter, son, and pop. They were the only family left in 2003 with the money to buy one! Ken Needs

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But it got you to remember the name of the car!!!!

Actually it didn’t.  I got the name of the car from the thread subject line.  During the broadcast I just knew it as that damned annoying minivan commercial that kept coming on again… and again… and again…  At the end of the broadcast if you had asked me what type of minivan it was, I probably could have guessed Chrysler because of the golf connection. But I would’ve had no clue what the model was. Why doesn’t Victoria’s Secret run commercials during golf? — Neal B. Richmond, VA RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=beasleyneal

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why would they show a single commercial so many times in a given telecast? I think that even if I *had* been interested in buying a Pacifica to begin with, being force-fed that commercial so many times would have gone a long way toward making me consider another manufacturer. That’s why whenever I watch a golf tournament live, I have another channel set to "flash back" during the commercials.  In this case the LPGA tournament provided a good alternative in the early going and the NFL at the end. To answer the question, I have no idea why anyone thinks bombing us with the same commercial over and over will increase my chances of buying the product.  For me it’s just the opposite.  Chrysler has made a strong impression as a car I won’t even look at.  (As has Cadillac, with those ridiculous Led Zeppelin ads.  Must be aimed at senile hippies with brains fried from too many drugs

Hey, cool it, man!

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Why would they show a single commercial so many times in a given telecast? I think that even if I *had* been interested in buying a Pacifica to begin with, being force-fed that commercial so many times would have gone a long way toward making me consider another manufacturer.

That’s why whenever I watch a golf tournament live, I have another channel set to "flash back" during the commercials.  In this case the LPGA tournament provided a good alternative in the early going and the NFL at the end. To answer the question, I have no idea why anyone thinks bombing us with the same commercial over and over will increase my chances of buying the product.  For me it’s just the opposite.  Chrysler has made a strong impression as a car I won’t even look at.  (As has Cadillac, with those ridiculous Led Zeppelin ads.  Must be aimed at senile hippies with brains fried from too many drugs — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

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But it got you to remember the name of the car!!!! and you mention it to this newsgroup. The advertiser did their job. Even though you won’t buy one. btw, I changed channel when the car appeared on TV.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tell me about it…  The one thing they accomplished it to ensure that that I will never buy a Chrysler Pacifica.  Every time that commercial came on I made a dive for the remote control. — Neal B. Richmond, VA RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=beasleyneal

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I think Kenny Perry and Nick Price was the best match…. I thought Kenny was a bit chocked up after Nick Price lost the match and broke his putter with his knee ….. Kenny

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been watching the President’s Cup on NBC and it seems like they’ve shown that Chrysler Pacifica commercial about 1,000 times….probably 6 or 7 times just during the sudden death playoff between Tiger and Ernie Els. Heck, I think I’ve got that thing memorized word for word now ("I see a man who knows where he’s going in the world…"). Why would they show a single commercial so many times in a given telecast? I think that even if I *had* been interested in buying a Pacifica to begin with, being force-fed that commercial so many times would have gone a long way toward making me consider another manufacturer. Oh well, I enjoyed the golf.  :-) New concept:  mute button. Other new concept, at least here in the Bay Area:  on another channel — the Shawshank Redemption.  Tim Robbins at his best.  And a real treat in between the shots, and after.  If you haven’t caught him in Mystic River, do it soon.  He’s also great in that, along with Penn, who’s spectacular. Golf wasn’t bad.  I tuned in for the best part…when DLIII was hitting up to 17 green.  Wonder if the earlier parts of today/earlier days were as dramatic?  Probably not. Just enough golf so I didn’t fall asleep.

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Would you have preferred the Neon commercial? With two NFL games going on at the same time, why would you sit through the commercials? Oh, I know, the missus had the remote!

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I’ve been watching the President’s Cup on NBC and it seems like they’ve shown that Chrysler Pacifica commercial about 1,000 times….probably 6 or 7 times just during the sudden death playoff between Tiger and Ernie Els. Heck, I think I’ve got that thing memorized word for word now ("I see a man who knows where he’s going in the world…"). Why would they show a single commercial so many times in a given telecast? I think that even if I *had* been interested in buying a Pacifica to begin with, being force-fed that commercial so many times would have gone a long way toward making me consider another manufacturer. Oh well, I enjoyed the golf.  :-)

New concept:  mute button. Other new concept, at least here in the Bay Area:  on another channel — the Shawshank Redemption.  Tim Robbins at his best.  And a real treat in between the shots, and after.  If you haven’t caught him in Mystic River, do it soon.  He’s also great in that, along with Penn, who’s spectacular. Golf wasn’t bad.  I tuned in for the best part…when DLIII was hitting up to 17 green.  Wonder if the earlier parts of today/earlier days were as dramatic?  Probably not. Just enough golf so I didn’t fall asleep.

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Tell me about it…  The one thing they accomplished it to ensure that that I will never buy a Chrysler Pacifica.  Every time that commercial came on I made a dive for the remote control. — Neal B. Richmond, VA RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=beasleyneal

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Agreed!  I started flipping channels, especially when  the commercial showed up after each shot pair.  For a pseudo-live event, I’m surprised NBC couldn’t come up with a better solution.  Of course, they gave a lot of commercial play to Chrysler and, maybe, made some extra money for NBC. — Michael L. Wyland Sumption & Wyland 818 South Hawthorne Avenue Sioux Falls, SD  57104-4537 (605) 336-0244 (605) 336-0275 (FAX) (888) 4-SUMPTION (toll-free) http://www.sumptionandwyland.com — free e-newsletter sign-up — new article: "2004 Forecast for the Nonprofit Sector"

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I’ve been watching the President’s Cup on NBC and it seems like they’ve shown that Chrysler Pacifica commercial about 1,000 times….probably 6 or 7 times just during the sudden death playoff between Tiger and Ernie Els. Heck, I think I’ve got that thing memorized word for word now ("I see a man who knows where he’s going in the world…"). Why would they show a single commercial so many times in a given telecast? I think that even if I *had* been interested in buying a Pacifica to begin with, being force-fed that commercial so many times would have gone a long way toward making me consider another manufacturer. Oh well, I enjoyed the golf.  :-) Ray Pezzi Traverse City, MI

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[… Toldeo is a class act.  I have met him more than once and he has always been nice.

As opposed to Dawson, who is an egocentric churl.  Never liked him much to begin with (his swing gives me hives), but really got to see the real Marco last summer.  Missing left with his tee shot was not the place to put his ball, so when he hit a low pull hook, the words out of his mouth were, "Get down ball!  Hit somebody!"  Indeed.  I’m sure Marco would have much preferred that a person be hospitalized than have a bad lie or lose his ball.  After all, a stroke or two can cost you real money, so if it only means that a little kid in the gallery loses his eyesight, no big deal. If he wasn’t rich, my guess is that he’d turn to crime.   Of course, the ever-adored Davis Love isn’t much better.  He and his brother were discussing a shot a couple of years ago, and decided that the safe shot was to fly the ball into the gallery behind the green. It’s one thing to accidentally hit people in the gallery, but quite another to intentionally aim for them.  Guess I’m just not competitive enough. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -At the scorers tent is the time to settle scoring disputes, not 2 days after.  If the card was signed and attested by both, it should stand. Good for Toledo keeping his card. tim

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – he’s not complaining about the rule infingement. he obviously stuffed up there. but dawson reported him after the round resulting in DQ rather than just a penalty. this would be different if toledo was trying to cheat but everyone makes mistakes. considering that dawson said he thought it was a bit unusual at the time of the drop but said nothing until afterwards is not the nicest thing to do. of course he is under no obligations to say anything but if he does it any more he is going to have a very hard and lonely life on tour. i think mr. toledo should learn the rules of golf…he is, after all, a professional. if i were in his position, trying to keep my card, i think i’d do everything possible to do just that…and it would include being sure of every drop and possible rules interpretation.  they do have rules officials on course. he should have waited. Toledo also said he would rather be Mr. 126 with honor than a questionable 124. Dawson is a questionable 107, probably for many years to come.

Toldeo is a class act.  I have met him more than once and he has always been nice. At the scorers tent is the time to settle scoring disputes, not 2 days after.  If the card was signed and attested by both, it should stand. Good for Toledo keeping his card. tim

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dawson would be considered dishonorable by the other players because instead of looking out for his fellow competitors he went out of his way to get them DQ’d. Of course he only has responsiblity for himself but DQing another player when he could have just penalised them is pretty rough treatment. I don’t get what he meant by that.  What did Toledo do that was honorable, tell the truth when questioned about what happened (and only after someone called him on it)?  If so, then how was what Dawson did dishonorable, if Toledo did, in fact, break the rule? I think the responsibility of "looking out for his fellow competitors", also referred to as "protecting the field", is just what Dawson did. It’s not covering up for someone who breaks the rules.

You have to remember here that what Dawson did was observe Toledo make the drop without comment and then after the fact *CLAIM* that he though, hmmm, I don’t think he did that right…and this is the second time he has done such a thing. I can’t see that going down well with other players on the tour. Toledo seems much more upset with that fact of Dawson’s behavior than the illegal drop, as evidenced by Toledo’s comments. That they make after the fact calls in golf is an embarassment to golf. Even instant replay is not well liked by a lot of football types, and that’s a minute of so after the fact. After the fact rulings are bush league (although you don’t see them in bush leagues either, only in golf). — RSG Masters 2004 pre-preliminary format http://home.att.net/~frostback2002 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=frostback "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are"    Joseph Campbell

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dawson would be considered dishonorable by the other players because instead of looking out for his fellow competitors he went out of his way to get them DQ’d. Of course he only has responsiblity for himself but DQing another player when he could have just penalised them is pretty rough treatment. I don’t get what he meant by that.  What did Toledo do that was honorable, tell the truth when questioned about what happened (and only after someone called him on it)?  If so, then how was what Dawson did dishonorable, if Toledo did, in fact, break the rule? I think the responsibility of "looking out for his fellow competitors", also referred to as "protecting the field", is just what Dawson did. It’s not covering up for someone who breaks the rules. You have to remember here that what Dawson did was observe Toledo make the drop without comment and then after the fact *CLAIM* that he though, hmmm, I don’t think he did that right…and this is the second time he has done such a thing. I can’t see that going down well with other players on the tour. Toledo seems much more upset with that fact of Dawson’s behavior than the illegal drop, as evidenced by Toledo’s comments. That they make after the fact calls in golf is an embarassment to golf. Even instant replay is not well liked by a lot of football types, and that’s a minute of so after the fact. After the fact rulings are bush league (although you don’t see them in bush leagues either, only in golf).

The way I read it, in addition to Dawson *CLAIMING* that Toledo made the wrong drop, they got Toledo and a Rules Official out to the course and Toledo admitted the facts of the matter.  So Toledo did, in fact, make an incorrect drop.  It wasn’t Dawson making some unsubstantiated *CLAIM*, as you put it. The fact that it was made after the scorecard was signed and resulted in a DQ also had no effect, because Toledo would have missed the cut anyway with the 2 stroke penalty.

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That is insane. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – see this…. http://sports.yahoo.golfserv.com/gdc/news/article.asp?id=19175

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Dawson would be considered dishonorable by the other players because instead of looking out for his fellow competitors he went out of his way to get them DQ’d. Of course he only has responsiblity for himself but DQing another player when he could have just penalised them is pretty rough treatment. I don’t get what he meant by that.  What did Toledo do that was honorable, tell the truth when questioned about what happened (and only after someone called him on it)?  If so, then how was what Dawson did dishonorable, if Toledo did, in fact, break the rule?

I think the responsibility of "looking out for his fellow competitors", also referred to as "protecting the field", is just what Dawson did. It’s not covering up for someone who breaks the rules.

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golf is the only game where the player must call the penalty on themself. each player keeps his own score, and signs his own card.  if they fail to do it correctly, they suffer the ultimate penalty of disqualification. jk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (quote from the news story)  "Esteban Toledo lashed out at Marco Dawson for waiting a day to report an improper drop, which led to Toledo being disqualified from the Funai Classic as he desperately tries to keep his PGA Tour card." i think mr. toledo should learn the rules of golf…he is, after all, a professional. if i were in his position, trying to keep my card, i think i’d do everything possible to do just that…and it would include being sure of every drop and possible rules interpretation.  they do have rules officials on course. he should have waited. did stadler complain when a tv viewer called in to report the "build a stance with a towel" incident?  no.  he dq’ed himself. mr. toledo should place the blame where it lies…on himself. This is crap.  There’s no other sport in which a rules call happens after the event or play is over.  You don’t go back and throw a flag for a holding call once the play is over, you don’t go back and call a foul after the game is over, you don’t go back and review a tape and call a ball out in tennis after the rally is over, you don’t review a play in football after the game and decide it really WAS a touchdown. This is stupid, and makes golf look ridiculous. The USGA needs to review this rule, and make the change.  Every tour event has officials with every group, and if they don’t make the call right then and there, that should be the rub of the green, and the match stands.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (quote from the news story)  "Esteban Toledo lashed out at Marco Dawson for waiting a day to report an improper drop, which led to Toledo being disqualified from the Funai Classic as he desperately tries to keep his PGA Tour card." i think mr. toledo should learn the rules of golf…he is, after all, a professional. if i were in his position, trying to keep my card, i think i’d do everything possible to do just that…and it would include being sure of every drop and possible rules interpretation.  they do have rules officials on course. he should have waited. did stadler complain when a tv viewer called in to report the "build a stance with a towel" incident?  no.  he dq’ed himself. mr. toledo should place the blame where it lies…on himself. This is crap.  There’s no other sport in which a rules call happens after the event or play is over.  You don’t go back and throw a flag for a holding call once the play is over, you don’t go back and call a foul after the game is over, you don’t go back and review a tape and call a ball out in tennis after the rally is over, you don’t review a play in football after the game and decide it really WAS a touchdown. This is stupid, and makes golf look ridiculous. The USGA needs to review this rule, and make the change.  Every tour event has officials with every group, and if they don’t make the call right then and there, that should be the rub of the green, and the match stands.

Come on Larry, he screwed up "nearest point of relief." This should be elementary. If he didn’t understand it he should have called an official. That being said, Dawson should be looking out for his fellows, as is customary, not playing gotcha. — bill-o

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Toledo also said he would rather be Mr. 126 with honor than a questionable 124.

I don’t get what he meant by that.  What did Toledo do that was honorable, tell the truth when questioned about what happened (and only after someone called him on it)?  If so, then how was what Dawson did dishonorable, if Toledo did, in fact, break the rule?

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Dawson would be considered dishonorable by the other players because instead of looking out for his fellow competitors he went out of his way to get them DQ’d. Of course he only has responsiblity for himself but DQing another player when he could have just penalised them is pretty rough treatment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t get what he meant by that.  What did Toledo do that was honorable, tell the truth when questioned about what happened (and only after someone called him on it)?  If so, then how was what Dawson did dishonorable, if Toledo did, in fact, break the rule?

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Toledo also said he would rather be Mr. 126 with honor than a questionable 124. Dawson is a questionable 107, probably for many years to come.

Well put. —

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This is crap.  There’s no other sport in which a rules call happens after the event or play is over.  You don’t go back and throw a flag for a holding call once the play is over, you don’t go back and call a foul after the game is over, you don’t go back and review a tape and call a ball out in tennis after the rally is over, you don’t review a play in football after the game and decide it really WAS a touchdown. This is stupid, and makes golf look ridiculous. The USGA needs to review this rule, and make the change.  Every tour event has officials with every group, and if they don’t make the call right then and there, that should be the rub of the green, and the match stands.

A four round golf tournament isn’t over after the second round. Generally, PGA Tour events do not have a rules official with each group. —               http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=hayesd

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (quote from the news story)  "Esteban Toledo lashed out at Marco Dawson for waiting a day to report an improper drop, which led to Toledo being disqualified from the Funai Classic as he desperately tries to keep his PGA Tour card." i think mr. toledo should learn the rules of golf…he is, after all, a professional. if i were in his position, trying to keep my card, i think i’d do everything possible to do just that…and it would include being sure of every drop and possible rules interpretation.  they do have rules officials on course.  he should have waited. did stadler complain when a tv viewer called in to report the "build a stance with a towel" incident?  no.  he dq’ed himself. mr. toledo should place the blame where it lies…on himself.

This is crap.  There’s no other sport in which a rules call happens after the event or play is over.  You don’t go back and throw a flag for a holding call once the play is over, you don’t go back and call a foul after the game is over, you don’t go back and review a tape and call a ball out in tennis after the rally is over, you don’t review a play in football after the game and decide it really WAS a touchdown. This is stupid, and makes golf look ridiculous. The USGA needs to review this rule, and make the change.  Every tour event has officials with every group, and if they don’t make the call right then and there, that should be the rub of the green, and the match stands.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – he’s not complaining about the rule infingement. he obviously stuffed up there. but dawson reported him after the round resulting in DQ rather than just a penalty. this would be different if toledo was trying to cheat but everyone makes mistakes. considering that dawson said he thought it was a bit unusual at the time of the drop but said nothing until afterwards is not the nicest thing to do. of course he is under no obligations to say anything but if he does it any more he is going to have a very hard and lonely life on tour. i think mr. toledo should learn the rules of golf…he is, after all, a professional. if i were in his position, trying to keep my card, i think i’d do everything possible to do just that…and it would include being sure of every drop and possible rules interpretation.  they do have rules officials on course. he should have waited.

Toledo also said he would rather be Mr. 126 with honor than a questionable 124. Dawson is a questionable 107, probably for many years to come. — RSG Masters 2004 pre-preliminary format http://home.att.net/~frostback2002 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=frostback "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are"    Joseph Campbell

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he’s not complaining about the rule infingement. he obviously stuffed up there. but dawson reported him after the round resulting in DQ rather than just a penalty. this would be different if toledo was trying to cheat but everyone makes mistakes. considering that dawson said he thought it was a bit unusual at the time of the drop but said nothing until afterwards is not the nicest thing to do. of course he is under no obligations to say anything but if he does it any more he is going to have a very hard and lonely life on tour. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i think mr. toledo should learn the rules of golf…he is, after all, a professional. if i were in his position, trying to keep my card, i think i’d do everything possible to do just that…and it would include being sure of every drop and possible rules interpretation.  they do have rules officials on course. he should have waited.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (quote from the news story)  "Esteban Toledo lashed out at Marco Dawson for waiting a day to report an improper drop, which led to Toledo being disqualified from the Funai Classic as he desperately tries to keep his PGA Tour card." i think mr. toledo should learn the rules of golf…he is, after all, a professional. if i were in his position, trying to keep my card, i think i’d do everything possible to do just that…and it would include being sure of every drop and possible rules interpretation.  they do have rules officials on course.  he should have waited. did stadler complain when a tv viewer called in to report the "build a stance with a towel" incident?  no.  he dq’ed himself. mr. toledo should place the blame where it lies…on himself. jk

Next time you see Mr. Toledo, you should tell him this. I think a lot of pros could use this sort of advice! ;^) — RSG Masters 2004 pre-preliminary format http://home.att.net/~frostback2002 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=frostback "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are"    Joseph Campbell

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (quote from the news story)  "Esteban Toledo lashed out at Marco Dawson for waiting a day to report an improper drop, which led to Toledo being disqualified from the Funai Classic as he desperately tries to keep his PGA Tour card." i think mr. toledo should learn the rules of golf…he is, after all, a professional. if i were in his position, trying to keep my card, i think i’d do everything possible to do just that…and it would include being sure of every drop and possible rules interpretation.  they do have rules officials on course.  he should have waited. did stadler complain when a tv viewer called in to report the "build a stance with a towel" incident?  no.  he dq’ed himself. mr. toledo should place the blame where it lies…on himself. jk see this…. http://sports.yahoo.golfserv.com/gdc/news/article.asp?id=19175 Wow, looks like Marco is going to have a ton of people just salivating to be in his group! What’s the deal that he can’t bring it up before the round is over?  2 strokes vs. a DQ is substantial; I’d be hacked off too…….

I see you point, but this is teh second time that Marco Dawson has called arulles violation *after* the round was over, this year. See the pattern?

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see this…. http://sports.yahoo.golfserv.com/gdc/news/article.asp?id=19175

Wow, looks like Marco is going to have a ton of people just salivating to be in his group! What’s the deal that he can’t bring it up before the round is over?  2 strokes vs. a DQ is substantial; I’d be hacked off too…….

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(quote from the news story)  "Esteban Toledo lashed out at Marco Dawson for waiting a day to report an improper drop, which led to Toledo being disqualified from the Funai Classic as he desperately tries to keep his PGA Tour card." i think mr. toledo should learn the rules of golf…he is, after all, a professional. if i were in his position, trying to keep my card, i think i’d do everything possible to do just that…and it would include being sure of every drop and possible rules interpretation.  they do have rules officials on course.  he should have waited. did stadler complain when a tv viewer called in to report the "build a stance with a towel" incident?  no.  he dq’ed himself. mr. toledo should place the blame where it lies…on himself. jk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – see this…. http://sports.yahoo.golfserv.com/gdc/news/article.asp?id=19175 Wow, looks like Marco is going to have a ton of people just salivating to be in his group! What’s the deal that he can’t bring it up before the round is over?  2 strokes vs. a DQ is substantial; I’d be hacked off too…….

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Heard some blurb on the Golf Channel about some rules controversy, but missed it.

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see this…. http://sports.yahoo.golfserv.com/gdc/news/article.asp?id=19175

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heard some blurb on the Golf Channel about some rules controversy, but missed it.

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