Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a | pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. | | Should one go through a window at 37,000 ft, the passengers sitting nearby | better have their seatbelts fastened. | | http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/1973/731103-0.htm | | http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR75-02.pdf An engine assembly is not a bullet. The plastic in an aircraft window is shatterproof. If you fire a bullet through the window it will just make a small hole in the plastic. This was in fact recently demonstrated on the program "Mythbusters" in a pressurized airplane. An airliner will be able to maintain pressurization even with several bullet holes in it. Airliners have flown all over the country with bullet holes in them and no one even knew it until the skin was inspected during a maintenance cycle. Bullet holes in airliners are nothing more than cosmetic blemishes.
Give me a few weeks consultation (you pay for it) with the designers of a specific aircraft, and I’m pretty sure I can find a place to aim the gun that WILL result in just about any kind of air disaster you want to specify.
Response:
They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot, or an AMRAAM-armed F-16? Remember that the passengers themselves are a line of defense too. I expect that the pilots will only hear of a hijacking attempt after the passengers finish tying him up. Fine, They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot, or an AMRAAM-armed F-16? Jim
Glock armed pilot. SRS (There’s always THAT last response)
Response:
| | Give me a few weeks consultation (you pay for it) with the designers of a | specific aircraft, and I’m pretty sure I can find a place to aim the gun | that WILL result in just about any kind of air disaster you want to specify. And the point of that is….? OK. The people who carry guns on airplanes are supposedly protecting us from terrorism. We will ignore the fact that so far the guns have only been used to threaten and terrify innocent passengers who wanted to do such nefarious things as go to the bathroom. There was a time, before 9/11, when it was public policy to comply with hijackers’ demands. Never mind that this policy was wrong, immoral, and had already resulted in hundreds of innocent deaths. We had plenty of warning that terrorists were willing to kill passengers and destroy aircraft and that sometimes this was their only objective, but we ignored it. Since 9/11 the policy has been resistance. If unauthorized persons gain control of an aircraft and the passengers and/or crew cannot get that control back, then the aircraft will be blown out of the sky. Those who worry about decompression or any other damage that a stray bullet might do should ponder what kind of explosive decompression and damage will accompany a burst of machine gun fire or a Sidewinder missile. The only question is whether you give the people on board a fighting chance to do something about it before the Air Force does it for them. Locked cabin doors or not, the moment a hijacker announces himself that pilot is going to inform the military. If the hijacker is not subdued before the military gets there the aircraft will be destroyed and everyone aboard will be killed, whether the hijacker manages to break into the cockpit or not. If it appears that the hijacker will gain control of the aircraft before the military can stop him, the pilots will destroy the airplane. It only takes a few seconds. It really does seem idiotic to worry about the damage from a stray 9 mm when the only alternative is certain destruction. If you can’t handle the idea of guns on board then you better just give up flying. There are going to be guns on board and there are even bigger guns keeping you in their sights. Personally, I think this policy will cause terrorists to give up hijacking almost completely. They will instead focus on how to smuggle bombs on board. Not as effective as crashing into, say, the Washington Monument, but it still disrupts the transportation system and encourages repressive measures.
Response:
Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression.
Should one go through a window at 37,000 ft, the passengers sitting nearby better have their seatbelts fastened. http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/1973/731103-0.htm http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR75-02.pdf
Response:
Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. Should one go through a window at 37,000 ft, the passengers sitting nearby better have their seatbelts fastened.
That’s "requested" during any flight, regardless of the altitude. After all, a pressurized aircraft hull is a pressurized aircraft hull. SPEED "might" be a different factor! :) Regardless, an expended "bullet" has YET to have ever been found to take out an entire window and it’s supporting structure, like the example you and the other idiot (Byker) gave, when shrapnel from a disintegrating Turbined Jet Engine took out enough area. "According t o a witness, the occupant of the seat was partially forced through the window opening and was temporarily retained i n t h i s position by h i s seatbelt. Efforts t o pull the passenger back into the airplane by another passenger were un- successful, and the occupant of seat 17H was subsequently forced entirely through the cabin window." Your cite! http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR75-02.pdf "Forced?" As in Pushed? : Anyway…. Look at the SIZE of the "missing window!" It’s not just the fucking window that is "missing", you simpletons! The entire STRUCTURE around the window is fucking gone! Also note, that it only lists that the one passenger that was "sucked out", was only listed as a "male passenger." Low old, or more importantly, how LARGE was this person? Was it an infant perhaps? Minny Me’s evil twin? Regardless, while still a sad incident, a bullet could NOT have caused that much catatrophic damage….unless by chance the stray bullet somehow magicaly exited the plane and somehow hit the engine’s turbine’s, causing it to recreate a simular shredding of the fuselage. I’ll take my chances with having armed pilots, sky marshals, and passengers like me who wish to be armed, thank you!
Response:
| | Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a | pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. | | Should one go through a window at 37,000 ft, the passengers sitting nearby | better have their seatbelts fastened. | | http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/1973/731103-0.htm | | http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR75-02.pdf An engine assembly is not a bullet. The plastic in an aircraft window is shatterproof. If you fire a bullet through the window it will just make a small hole in the plastic. This was in fact recently demonstrated on the program "Mythbusters" in a pressurized airplane. An airliner will be able to maintain pressurization even with several bullet holes in it. Airliners have flown all over the country with bullet holes in them and no one even knew it until the skin was inspected during a maintenance cycle. Bullet holes in airliners are nothing more than cosmetic blemishes.
Response:
Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists. Personally, I’d rather they tried to stop armed terrorists boarding the plane in the first place.
They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot, or an AMRAAM-armed F-16? Jim
Response:
Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists. Personally, I’d rather they tried to stop armed terrorists boarding the plane in the first place. John
It worked real well at Logan Airport in Boston. Kennedy has let millions of Muslims flood into America and a bunch of them work at Logan. They probably handed out the box cutters to their muslim brothers with their boarding passes. Arm the pilots – all of them now. Give the co-pilots a stun gun. Deputize American men/passengers for each flight and give them billy clubs.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists. Personally, I’d rather they tried to stop armed terrorists boarding the plane in the first place. John It worked real well at Logan Airport in Boston. Kennedy has let millions of Muslims flood into America and a bunch of them work at Logan. They probably handed out the box cutters to their muslim brothers with their boarding passes. Arm the pilots – all of them now. Give the co-pilots a stun gun. Deputize American men/passengers
You’re right, I wouldn’t arm the women either! for each flight and give them billy clubs.
John
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Evidence examined thus far indicates that the Payne Stewart crash was decompression, but not explosive. The old Lears had some interesting systems and according to some reports the company had not maintained its airplanes all that well or worked off some of the squawks. Those who have flown the old Lears can give a number of different scenarios that would generate the gradual loss of cabin pressure that doomed the Stewart flight. Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. The B-29 crews demonstrated that in Korea and WWII. All the best, Rick
Stewart’s plane supposedly had a slow leak due to poor maintainance. The crew and passengers passed out due to lack of oxygen. http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/10/26/stewart.crash.sp/ I know someone who has worked on military jets, small exec jets like lears and high end modern sorts cars. He said modern sports cars like Porsches are light years ahead of Lears and other exec jets in technology. He left commercial aviation because companies would cut corners on maintaining the exec jets. This is why Payne Stewart died.
Response:
[snip] S’matter, Spamhead, did rec.motorcycles.harley get boring? Now be a good little troll and get back in the killfile
Response:
Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists. Personally, I’d rather they tried to stop armed terrorists boarding the plane in the first place. They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot, or an AMRAAM-armed F-16?
Remember that the passengers themselves are a line of defense too. I expect that the pilots will only hear of a hijacking attempt after the passengers finish tying him up. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine
Response:
They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot, or an AMRAAM-armed F-16? Remember that the passengers themselves are a line of defense too. I expect that the pilots will only hear of a hijacking attempt after the passengers finish tying him up.
Fine, They are, but if one slips through, would you rather the NEXT response be a Glock-armed pilot, or an AMRAAM-armed F-16? Jim
Response:
the pressurization system didn’t work (otherwise the window wouldn’t have iced)
I wish that I could have a dollar for every time that I have had the cockpit windows frost-up (inside) in the old Boeings with full pressurization at FL350. Bob Moore
Response:
the pressurization system didn’t work (otherwise the window wouldn’t have iced) I wish that I could have a dollar for every time that I have had the cockpit windows frost-up (inside) in the old Boeings with full pressurization at FL350.
Never having flown a pressurized aircraft, I can’t speak from any experience. Here is what the NTSB said about this accident, however: "When bleed air is supplied to the cabin, the cockpit windshield receives a constant flow of warm air that prevents or removes condensation, regardless of the ambient temperature or pressure in the cabin. Thus, the windshield would be relatively clear following depressurization from a breach or other undesired outflow from the cabin with continued bleed air supply to the cabin, whereas condensation could form and remain on the windshield following a depressurization caused by a loss of bleed air inflow to the cabin. Therefore, the accident airplane most likely did not have an inflow of bleed air to the cabin." Todd Pattist (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.) ___ Make a commitment to learn something from every flight. Share what you learn.
Response:
And so did a TV show called Mythbusters just last night. Took an old 727 hulk and over pressured it to 8 psi then shot through the skin. No explosive decompression. Patched it up, and did it again but through the window, again no explosive decompression. For the third try they put a 100 grain shape charge on the joint brtween a vertical and horizontal frame member. Damned near cut the plane in half when the skin peeled off. Les F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. The B-29 crews demonstrated that in Korea and WWII. All the best, Rick
Response:
Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And so did a TV show called Mythbusters just last night. Took an old 727 hulk and over pressured it to 8 psi then shot through the skin. No explosive decompression. Patched it up, and did it again but through the window, again no explosive decompression. For the third try they put a 100 grain shape charge on the joint brtween a vertical and horizontal frame member. Damned near cut the plane in half when the skin peeled off. Les F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret) Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. The B-29 crews demonstrated that in Korea and WWII. All the best, Rick
Response:
Personally, I rather take my chances with armed aircrew to shoot the terrorists.
Personally, I’d rather they tried to stop armed terrorists boarding the plane in the first place. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And so did a TV show called Mythbusters just last night. Took an old 727 hulk and over pressured it to 8 psi then shot through the skin. No explosive decompression. Patched it up, and did it again but through the window, again no explosive decompression. For the third try they put a 100 grain shape charge on the joint brtween a vertical and horizontal frame member. Damned near cut the plane in half when the skin peeled off. Les F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret) Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. The B-29 crews demonstrated that in Korea and WWII. All the best, Rick
Response:
Evidence examined thus far indicates that the Payne Stewart crash was decompression, but not explosive. The old Lears had some interesting systems and according to some reports the company had not maintained its airplanes all that well or worked off some of the squawks. Those who have flown the old Lears can give a number of different scenarios that would generate the gradual loss of cabin pressure that doomed the Stewart flight.
I read the accident report and didn’t see that conclusion. The cabin altitude aural warning was on for the last 30 minutes of the flight, until it descended below the alarm limit after one engine ran out of fuel. One would think if it was a slow leak they would have heard the alarm and descended or donned oxy in time. They did seem to conclude that it was not a simple cabin breach as the windshield icing seen by the chase flights would not have occurred if bleed air had been supplied to the cabin. I just didn’t see any clear indication of the time scale of the loss of pressure or whether it was explosive, sudden or slow. The simple summary was that the cabin lost pressure for unknown reasons, the pressurization system didn’t work (otherwise the window wouldn’t have iced) and the crew wasn’t able to respond by descending or donning oxy, again for unknown reasons. Todd Pattist (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.) ___ Make a commitment to learn something from every flight. Share what you learn.
Response:
Evidence examined thus far indicates that the Payne Stewart crash was decompression, but not explosive. The old Lears had some interesting systems and according to some reports the company had not maintained its airplanes all that well or worked off some of the squawks. Those who have flown the old Lears can give a number of different scenarios that would generate the gradual loss of cabin pressure that doomed the Stewart flight. Nevertheless, a bullet or bullets fired through the skin of a pressurized airplane will not cause explosive decompression. The B-29 crews demonstrated that in Korea and WWII. All the best, Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those delightfully quirky fellows on Myth Busters decided to play explosive decompression from a gunshot with a DC-9. They pressurized it and fired through the skin from the inside. Nothing. They pressurized it and fired through a window. Nothing. Oh, well. Looks like a big, "Neener! Neener" goes out to certain folks. Sure numbnuts, try it in actual flight and see: By Brian Knowlton International Herald Tribune WASHINGTON – Investigators were sifting Tuesday through a small, blackened crater in a South Dakota pasture where the private jet carrying the golfer Payne Stewart and five other people had crashed, ending an eerie flight that millions of people, including Mr. Stewart’s wife, had followed live on television. Bodies still were being recovered from the site. The Lear 35 had taken off Monday in Orlando, Florida, on a flight that was supposed to carry Mr. Stewart, a two-time U.S. Open champion, to a Houston golf tournament. But it soon deviated from its flight plan, heading due northwest and apparently soaring far above the altitudes for which it normally is certified. Air-traffic controllers were unable to summon any response by radio. As the plane continued on a doomed 1,400-mile (2250-kilometer) trajectory across the U.S. heartland, its windows frozen over and its passengers quite possibly dead, military jets were scrambled to shadow it, and news reports followed its progress. People in the Dakotas, directly on its path, kept one wary eye on their televisions, another on the skies. Among those listening in horror was Mr. Stewart’s wife, Tracey, a native of Australia. From their home in Orlando, she tried to reach her husband via cellular phone, according to her brother, Mike Ferguson. ”It’s just really bad for my sister to be watching it on CNN, knowing that it was her husband on board,” he told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. Mr. Stewart, whose knickers and colorful tam-o’-shanters made him one of the most recognized of professional golfers, was co-owner of the plane. Also on the plane were his agents, Robert Fraley and Van Ardan, and the pilots, Michael Kling and Stephanie Bellegarrigue. Bruce Borland, a golf-course designer who worked for the professional golfer Jack Nicklaus, was aboard as well, Mr. Nicklaus said. Officials with the National Transportation Safety Board, who flew Monday to Mina, South Dakota, in the north-central part of the state, said it might be some time before an explanation emerged. ”It’s not going to be an easy investigation,” said Robert Francis, vice chairman of the safety board. ”It looks like the aircraft was pretty much vertical when it hit the ground. The ground is soft, and it went in fairly deep.” The crash site, in the middle of a flat wheat field, was cordoned off. Black cows grazed nearby as about 20 investigators in blue, yellow and white jumpsuits sifted through the tangled debris. Aviation specialists speculated that the plane might have suffered a sudden decompression at high altitude, which could have rendered the two pilots, as well as the passengers, unconscious within seconds. In that scenario, bitterly cold stratospheric air, minus 70 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 56 centigrade) at the altitudes involved, could have rushed into the plane, causing windows to fog and freeze. Air force pilots, sent aloft by air-traffic controllers who were concerned about the small craft’s movements, had flown within 200 feet (60 meters) of the craft and said that the cockpit windshield appeared heavily frosted. But they reported none of the signs of structural damage that an explosive decompression would involve. Autopsies should show whether the victims had inhaled smoke, but not whether they had suffered from a drop in air pressure, said Dr. Brad Randall, a special investigator for South Dakota. The coroner’s office, which has removed tissue samples, might not be able to determine exactly when death occurred, he said. Mr. Francis said that sudden decompression was ”one possibility.” But, he said, ”we try to be driven by the evidence that we find.” Air-traffic controllers had routed other planes around the Learjet and cleared the skies below. Authorities said the Learjet, apparently on autopilot, was ”porpoising,” fluctuating between altitudes as low as 22,000 feet and as high as 51,000 feet. In grim helplessness, the air force pilots escorted the plane until they saw it roll over, apparently out of fuel, and plunge down through the clouds at a nearly vertical angle. The plane, traveling at perhaps 200 miles per hour (320 kilometers per hour), then slammed into the rain-softened ground. The impact left a blackened crater in the pasture about 40 feet long, 30 feet wide and 10 feet deep, Mr. Francis said. The task of identifying and recovering the thousands of bits of wreckage, he added, will be ”a fairly complicated issue.” ”We want to make very sure that before we start touching things that we are certain that we’re not destroying some evidence that we otherwise could get,” Mr. Francis said. The Pentagon, according to some reports, had considered shooting down the plane in the event that it endangered a populated area. But the Defense Department spokesman, Kenneth Bacon, said Tuesday that it had been clear to the air force pilots that the plane was on a trajectory over sparsely inhabited areas. ”It never reached that point,” he said. Investigators hoped to recover the airplane’s cockpit voice recorder, which remained buried in the wreckage, but Mr. Francis acknowledged that it was unlikely to offer any clues. Its tape loop records over itself every 30 minutes, and the plane flew in silence for nearly four hours. The plane carried no electronic data recorder. It was unclear whether the air force planes had taken videotapes or photographs of the jet, and Mr. Francis appealed to local residents who might have filmed the crash to come forward. The plane, which had passed two safety inspections in the past week, had logged 10,000 hours in 23 years of flight without significant mechanical problems, the Federal Aviation Administration said. No Lear 35, a twin-engine, eight-passenger plane, had been involved in a fatal accident since 1983. Of eight nonfatal accidents, none involved depressurization. As the golfing community mourned Mr. Stewart, the start of the tournament in Houston was postponed. ”This is a tremendous loss for the entire golfing community and all of sports,” said Tim Finchem, commissioner of the PGA Tour. Bush Admin is dragging it’s feet in arming airline pilots. Not dragging their feet on letting millions of illegals into America for loads of freebies. The only problem is Democrats are more evil than Republicans. — "Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." - Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshall
Response:
Sure numbnuts, try it in actual flight and see:
"Sudden decompression" and "explosive decompression" are two totally different things. George Patterson Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What’s usually said is "Hummmmm… That’s interesting…."
Response:
Payne Stewart’s plane did not have an explosive decompression.
Response:
I said it decompressed for any number of reasons. I didn’t use the word "explosive" in my original reply. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Payne Stewart’s plane did not have an explosive decompression.
Response:
Those delightfully quirky fellows on Myth Busters decided to play explosive decompression from a gunshot with a DC-9. They pressurized it and fired through the skin from the inside. Nothing. They pressurized it and fired through a window. Nothing. Oh, well. Looks like a big, "Neener! Neener" goes out to certain folks. Sure numbnuts, try it in actual flight and see:
This has nothing do with that controlled experiment. Payne Stewart’s a/c could have decompressed for any number of other reasons and the size of the leak if that’s it was. In a smaller plane, the results could be more catastrophic esp at the higher altitudes. By Brian Knowlton International Herald Tribune WASHINGTON – Investigators were sifting Tuesday through a small, blackened crater in a South Dakota pasture where the private jet carrying the golfer Payne Stewart and five other people had crashed, ending an eerie flight that millions of people, including Mr. Stewart’s wife, had followed live on television. Bodies still were being recovered from the site.
snip, and removed irrelevant crossposting
Response:
Those delightfully quirky fellows on Myth Busters decided to play explosive decompression from a gunshot with a DC-9. They pressurized it and fired through the skin from the inside. Nothing. They pressurized it and fired through a window. Nothing. Oh, well. Looks like a big, "Neener! Neener" goes out to certain folks.
Sure numbnuts, try it in actual flight and see: By Brian Knowlton International Herald Tribune WASHINGTON – Investigators were sifting Tuesday through a small, blackened crater in a South Dakota pasture where the private jet carrying the golfer Payne Stewart and five other people had crashed, ending an eerie flight that millions of people, including Mr. Stewart’s wife, had followed live on television. Bodies still were being recovered from the site. The Lear 35 had taken off Monday in Orlando, Florida, on a flight that was supposed to carry Mr. Stewart, a two-time U.S. Open champion, to a Houston golf tournament. But it soon deviated from its flight plan, heading due northwest and apparently soaring far above the altitudes for which it normally is certified. Air-traffic controllers were unable to summon any response by radio. As the plane continued on a doomed 1,400-mile (2250-kilometer) trajectory across the U.S. heartland, its windows frozen over and its passengers quite possibly dead, military jets were scrambled to shadow it, and news reports followed its progress. People in the Dakotas, directly on its path, kept one wary eye on their televisions, another on the skies. Among those listening in horror was Mr. Stewart’s wife, Tracey, a native of Australia. From their home in Orlando, she tried to reach her husband via cellular phone, according to her brother, Mike Ferguson. ”It’s just really bad for my sister to be watching it on CNN, knowing that it was her husband on board,” he told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. Mr. Stewart, whose knickers and colorful tam-o’-shanters made him one of the most recognized of professional golfers, was co-owner of the plane. Also on the plane were his agents, Robert Fraley and Van Ardan, and the pilots, Michael Kling and Stephanie Bellegarrigue. Bruce Borland, a golf-course designer who worked for the professional golfer Jack Nicklaus, was aboard as well, Mr. Nicklaus said. Officials with the National Transportation Safety Board, who flew Monday to Mina, South Dakota, in the north-central part of the state, said it might be some time before an explanation emerged. ”It’s not going to be an easy investigation,” said Robert Francis, vice chairman of the safety board. ”It looks like the aircraft was pretty much vertical when it hit the ground. The ground is soft, and it went in fairly deep.” The crash site, in the middle of a flat wheat field, was cordoned off. Black cows grazed nearby as about 20 investigators in blue, yellow and white jumpsuits sifted through the tangled debris. Aviation specialists speculated that the plane might have suffered a sudden decompression at high altitude, which could have rendered the two pilots, as well as the passengers, unconscious within seconds. In that scenario, bitterly cold stratospheric air, minus 70 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 56 centigrade) at the altitudes involved, could have rushed into the plane, causing windows to fog and freeze. Air force pilots, sent aloft by air-traffic controllers who were concerned about the small craft’s movements, had flown within 200 feet (60 meters) of the craft and said that the cockpit windshield appeared heavily frosted. But they reported none of the signs of structural damage that an explosive decompression would involve. Autopsies should show whether the victims had inhaled smoke, but not whether they had suffered from a drop in air pressure, said Dr. Brad Randall, a special investigator for South Dakota. The coroner’s office, which has removed tissue samples, might not be able to determine exactly when death occurred, he said. Mr. Francis said that sudden decompression was ”one possibility.” But, he said, ”we try to be driven by the evidence that we find.” Air-traffic controllers had routed other planes around the Learjet and cleared the skies below. Authorities said the Learjet, apparently on autopilot, was ”porpoising,” fluctuating between altitudes as low as 22,000 feet and as high as 51,000 feet. In grim helplessness, the air force pilots escorted the plane until they saw it roll over, apparently out of fuel, and plunge down through the clouds at a nearly vertical angle. The plane, traveling at perhaps 200 miles per hour (320 kilometers per hour), then slammed into the rain-softened ground. The impact left a blackened crater in the pasture about 40 feet long, 30 feet wide and 10 feet deep, Mr. Francis said. The task of identifying and recovering the thousands of bits of wreckage, he added, will be ”a fairly complicated issue.” ”We want to make very sure that before we start touching things that we are certain that we’re not destroying some evidence that we otherwise could get,” Mr. Francis said. The Pentagon, according to some reports, had considered shooting down the plane in the event that it endangered a populated area. But the Defense Department spokesman, Kenneth Bacon, said Tuesday that it had been clear to the air force pilots that the plane was on a trajectory over sparsely inhabited areas. ”It never reached that point,” he said. Investigators hoped to recover the airplane’s cockpit voice recorder, which remained buried in the wreckage, but Mr. Francis acknowledged that it was unlikely to offer any clues. Its tape loop records over itself every 30 minutes, and the plane flew in silence for nearly four hours. The plane carried no electronic data recorder. It was unclear whether the air force planes had taken videotapes or photographs of the jet, and Mr. Francis appealed to local residents who might have filmed the crash to come forward. The plane, which had passed two safety inspections in the past week, had logged 10,000 hours in 23 years of flight without significant mechanical problems, the Federal Aviation Administration said. No Lear 35, a twin-engine, eight-passenger plane, had been involved in a fatal accident since 1983. Of eight nonfatal accidents, none involved depressurization. As the golfing community mourned Mr. Stewart, the start of the tournament in Houston was postponed. ”This is a tremendous loss for the entire golfing community and all of sports,” said Tim Finchem, commissioner of the PGA Tour. Bush Admin is dragging it’s feet in arming airline pilots. Not dragging their feet on letting millions of illegals into America for loads of freebies. The only problem is Democrats are more evil than Republicans.
– "Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." - Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshall