And another factor could be that if they make the cut and fly home from Australia Sunday evening they don’t get to the next tournament until Tuesday and have only Wednesday to recover from jet lag. That means they don’t get in a decent practice round or a day off. Remember that west to east jet lag is tougher than east to west.
But then it could just become a question of which tournament to miss … the Australian one or the next one. From memory the Australian one was pretty rich comparatively. What, you mean people aren’t attacked by rabid ‘roos in the airport? 
No, but just don’t go diving on the Barrier Reef. You might get left behind. BTW, please don’t take that as a slight towards Assisi and Kiwis.
Nah, Francis of Assisi was Italian anyway 
But as I said, I don’t think US PGA Tour players for the most part don’t really care one way or another about the WGT.
Yeah, probably. I know what you meant, but it still won’t happen, at least not on a regular basis. And most Americans do think any travel longer than 2-4 hours is a pain. A lot of people will not even consider traveling to Hawaii and certainly not to Australia or New Zealand because of the travel time. The idea of being confined on an airplane for 12 or more hours is intolerable to many Americans.
They used to say that the Australian history and psyche was formed by the "Tyranny of Distance". Because we’re so far away from our roots, isolation has forged our self-dependence. Conversely, because we’re so far away from everyone, travel just becomes something you accept. It’s hard to understand someone else not accepting it as routine. Matchplay is not a common format here either. If you’d seen the quizzical looks on the faces of a lot of spectators at the President’s Cup, you’d realise that it is often misunderstood here. That is a surprise, I thought matchplay was pretty popular Down Under. Most Aussis and Kiwis seem to do pretty well in match play, so I assumed they were very familiar with it.
We do play matchplay at club level, in fact I’m right in the middle of my club singles matchplay now. (I’ve managed to get into the last 16 .) The Australian Amateur is still decided by matchplay. The top pros would have some matchplay experience, but it becomes less popular as you go up. All the important events are stroke. But I’d say it’s still not readily understood by a lot of non-club golfers. These are still the ones who go to tournaments and watch a lot on TV. If Jumbo had to play against 10-15 players almost or just as good as he is every week, instead or 2-5, then he certainly wouldn’t have as good a winning record as he does.
Well, he might get nearly as many points, because over time the events would probably be awarded more points because the field was stronger But I also believe that expenses are much higher and to make that kind of money you have to live there and play every week. While I would love to visit Japan, AU, NZL, SA, etc., I am not interested in actually living anywhere but in the US. I did live in Germany for 3 years and I wouldn’t trade the experience for anything. But I always knew, right down to the day, when I was going home.
And a lot of Aussie golfers buy houses over there. What’s the attraction with Orlando, Florida. Is this the next Kangaroo Court? It’s been happening since Jim Ferrier. Migrated to USA in 1940 and won 21 USPGA events and one major. The first 2 rounds, yes. But Sat. and Sun. are almost always on regular TV. BTW, the distinction between ‘regular’ TV and cable is almost gone in the US. Better 90% of households in the US are wired for cable. And satellite dishes have exploded in popularity in the past 2 years. In the fairly near future it will all be TV, not network or cable or satellite.
I guess with digital, which is just coming in here, that that possibility is here too. Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club – http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham RSG Roll Call – http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
I can see both points of view, but I’ll try to comment on a few of your points. If they do it is generally for either appearance money or as a goodwill gesture. But I was really refering to the World Match Play, which AFAIK is right up near the top of earnings – US$5 million purse, US$1 million for the winner – not to mention the prestige and ranking points.
Very true, and I am sure that virtually all of the eligible American golfers will be there. The points and money are just too good to pass up for most of them, along with the prestige. There’s not much goodwill involved from overseas stars in regard to tournaments here. It’s usually appearance money or nothing. Tournaments here get one or two token PGA players, or a few lesser lights who really are after a bit more cash. Even Greg Norman has got appearance money for playing here. One or two Australian events are now co-sanctioned with the European Tour e.g. the Heineken Classic. So you get players like Els, Faldo and Westwood turning up.
I would not call it lack of good will, but lack of interest. Unless they are guaranteed a lot of money, it just isn’t worth the time and effort to make the trip. A typical example of what I mean is the USLPGA. The Australian Ladies Masters is a co-sanctioned LPGA event, with quite good prize money. Held on the Gold Coast, it was programmed as the next event after an LPGA tournament in Hawaii. So it was just another flight sector further away. But more than half the US women players went back home rather than take the extra leg, cuting the same reasons as Duval et al. Maybe they’re bigger wusses than the men. Perhaps they all knew that Kerrie Webb would just blitz them on her home turf
And another factor could be that if they make the cut and fly home from Australia Sunday evening they don’t get to the next tournament until Tuesday and have only Wednesday to recover from jet lag. That means they don’t get in a decent practice round or a day off. Remember that west to east jet lag is tougher than east to west. It’s also not as though Australia is a risky destination for Americans. It’s just a few thousand sunny kilos, non-stop, past Hawaii
What, you mean people aren’t attacked by rabid ‘roos in the airport? Personally, I would love to go to Australia, but I want it to be a minimum 2 week stay and preferably a month. I don’t see the point of going for less than 2 weeks because you spend at least 4 days traveling. This is true, but the point is that travel is not such a big deal. Fourteen hours in a plane, flying first-class if you’re Duval, is surely not that taxing. You can even fly the world’s safest airline to get here. I just wonder about their spirit of adventure and risk versus comfort. It’s not as though Duval couldn’t afford to risk US$8000.
Again, why? If he wants to play any off season events there are plenty here and they pay as much or more than anything outside the US. What I think is more likely is that he would combine an off season event in Australia with a vacation of 2-3 weeks. The ‘lesser lights’ of the tour do head Down Under occasionally, but I believe generally do so only when there is appearance money and their expenses are covered. But for the top names there really isn’t much to make it worth their while. BTW, please don’t take that as a slight towards Assisi and Kiwis. Not at all, but if they are *world-ranked* golfers, maybe they should earn that title by playing on a few more courses than just in the USA. In other words, they should meet US and other international golfers in a variety of conditions (more than just the Open Championship). That might provide a fairer comparison than a "tricked up" ranking system. That’s the spirit, as far as I can see, behind the World Tour idea, as well as giving eager golfing audiences world-wide the chance to see the top pros play.
But as I said, I don’t think US PGA Tour players for the most part don’t really care one way or another about the WGT. The other point might be that if a World Tour really eventuated, perhaps the US golfers would drop in the rankings until they managed to cope with unfamiliar conditions. Maybe that, and the comfort of home, is where the reticence lies.
Very possibly. But until something happens to make it worthwhile for US PGA Tour players to venture overseas we’ll never know. Unfortunately, I can see the possibility of a WGT that has no top ranked American participants. Why play on the WGT if the money at PGA Tour events is better and on courses that they prefer. That will piss off the PGA Tour executives to no end, since they are one of the primary forces behind the WGT, but it could happen. Australian golfing has been really riled, for instance, with Knuth’s suggestion, featured in golfing magazines here, that the points allocated to the Australian-NZ Tour should be halved. That just ingrains any bias towards the US Tour, and precludes good Australian golfers that don’t play the US Tour, like Stephen Leaney, from getting as many points.
Some people were born assholes. Again, I wasn’t suggesting they play the Australian Tour. I was talking of high-profile events like the World Matchplay, and maybe even the important events like the Australian Open or Masters, providing the money was adequate. Again, you make the idea of travelling sound such a pain, when in most cases it isn’t.
I know what you meant, but it still won’t happen, at least not on a regular basis. And most Americans do think any travel longer than 2-4 hours is a pain. A lot of people will not even consider traveling to Hawaii and certainly not to Australia or New Zealand because of the travel time. The idea of being confined on an airplane for 12 or more hours is intolerable to many Americans. And playing matchplay *in another country* is obviously at the bottom of favourite event pile.
That the event is a 12-14 hour plane ride away just makes it even worse. Add that to the fact that his matchplay record is absolutely dismal and I can understand why he has no interest in traveling to Australia for the event. Duval, for all his great golfing ability, is really bad at matchplay. So bad in fact, that I am sure it must be a mental block, because the ability is certainly there. He sounded like he was already eliminated when he was interviewed before the last one. Yes, I can see that comfort and lots of home-earned dollars would easily prevail in their thoughts. Maybe if the WGT was more lucrative than the USPGA they might revise their thoughts.
I have no doubt that you are correct. Bu there would also need to be more events. Matchplay is not a common format here either. If you’d seen the quizzical looks on the faces of a lot of spectators at the President’s Cup, you’d realise that it is often misunderstood here.
That is a surprise, I thought matchplay was pretty popular Down Under. Most Aussis and Kiwis seem to do pretty well in match play, so I assumed they were very familiar with it. The criticisms is because there is little or no competition in many of the events. Well, that’s not quite true. There are many fine golfers playing in Japan, like Minoza, Franco and Maruyama, plus a heap of (good but slightly lesser light) Japanese and Australians. Jumbo might win a lot, but he has to to get as many world-ranking points.
I have no doubt there are many fine golfers on all the tours around the world. But the fact is, as uncomfortable as it may be to some, that the USPGA Tour is the strongest tour in the world. While the best on here may not be better than the best anywhere else, there are of lot more players of that caliber on the USPGA Tour. If Jumbo had to play against 10-15 players almost or just as good as he is every week, instead or 2-5, then he certainly wouldn’t have as good a wining record as he does. Why, indeed? Again, I wasn’t necessarily talking about whole Tours, but those one-off events with large purses or significant championships. I bet Jack Nicklaus gladly puts six Australian Opens on his resume. Don’t forget also that US golfers are heavily marketed here too. A personal appearance occasionally might do wonders in a keen, albeit small, market.
I am sure Jack is very proud of his AO victories. But why are US golfers marketed heavily in Australia? You fellows have quite a few home grown golf heroes of you own, don’t they dominate the marketing for golf there? BTW, some golfers make much more money playing on the Australian Tour or the Japanese Tour, than they would on say the Nike Tour. And the main Australian events are about equal to a mid-ranked PGA Tour event in terms of prize-money.
But I also believe that expenses are much higher and to make that kind of money you have to live there and play every week. While I would love to visit Japan, AU, NZL, SA, etc., I am not interested in actually living anywhere but in the US. I did live in Germany for 3 years and I wouldn’t trade the experience for anything. But I always knew, right down to the day, when I was going home. Of course. And if I had a PGA Tour card I wouldn’t play in these either. But I might have a spirit of adventure and go to good overseas tournaments, in the off-season, for the experience and the chance to enhance my reputation and earnings. I’d probably also pick up an appearance fee that guaranteed my trip.
That really comes down to individual personality and interests. As I suggested above, I could see Duval or some other top name combining a tournament with a 2-3 week vacation. And if I were a low or mid level PGA player I probably would jump at a chance to go to Australia or South Africa if I were offered appearance money and a chance at a decent purse. But the lower and mid level guys don’t get those … read more »
You have some valid points, particularly from a non-US point of view, but there are mitigating circumstances.
I can see both points of view, but I’ll try to comment on a few of your points. If they do it is generally for either appearance money or as a goodwill gesture.
But I was really refering to the World Match Play, which AFAIK is right up near the top of earnings – US$5 million purse, US$1 million for the winner – not to mention the prestige and ranking points. There’s not much goodwill involved from overseas stars in regard to tournaments here. It’s usually appearance money or nothing. Tournaments here get one or two token PGA players, or a few lesser lights who really are after a bit more cash. Even Greg Norman has got appearance money for playing here. One or two Australian events are now co-sanctioned with the European Tour e.g. the Heineken Classic. So you get players like Els, Faldo and Westwood turning up. A typical example of what I mean is the USLPGA. The Australian Ladies Masters is a co-sanctioned LPGA event, with quite good prize money. Held on the Gold Coast, it was programmed as the next event after an LPGA tournament in Hawaii. So it was just another flight sector further away. But more than half the US women players went back home rather than take the extra leg, cuting the same reasons as Duval et al. Maybe they’re bigger wusses than the men. Perhaps they all knew that Kerrie Webb would just blitz them on her home turf It’s also not as though Australia is a risky destination for Americans. It’s just a few thousand sunny kilos, non-stop, past Hawaii I don’t see the point. The reason they travel is because they want to go where the money is.
This is true, but the point is that travel is not such a big deal. Fourteen hours in a plane, flying first-class if you’re Duval, is surely not that taxing. You can even fly the world’s safest airline to get here. I just wonder about their spirit of adventure and risk versus comfort. It’s not as though Duval couldn’t afford to risk US$8000. Are you suggesting that they owe it to Australians or Germans to play in events overseas?
Not at all, but if they are *world-ranked* golfers, maybe they should earn that title by playing on a few more courses than just in the USA. In other words, they should meet US and other international golfers in a variety of conditions (more than just the Open Championship). That might provide a fairer comparison than a "tricked up" ranking system. That’s the spirit, as far as I can see, behind the World Tour idea, as well as giving eager golfing audiences world-wide the chance to see the top pros play. The other point might be that if a World Tour really eventuated, perhaps the US golfers would drop in the rankings until they managed to cope with unfamiliar conditions. Maybe that, and the comfort of home, is where the reticence lies. Australian golfing has been really riled, for instance, with Knuth’s suggestion, featured in golfing magazines here, that the points allocated to the Australian-NZ Tour should be halved. That just ingrains any bias towards the US Tour, and precludes good Australian golfers that don’t play the US Tour, like Stephen Leaney, from getting as many points. The question again is why would an American golfer who has his PGA Tour card be interested in playing on another tour where the money is significantly less and what they do win doesn’t even count towards retaining their PGA Tour card, earning Pyder Cup points, etc? Plus the hassles of dealing with international travel, foreign taxes, customs, etc., etc., etc.
Again, I wasn’t suggesting they play the Australian Tour. I was talking of high-profile events like the World Matchplay, and maybe even the important events like the Australian Open or Masters, providing the money was adequate. Again, you make the idea of travelling sound such a pain, when in most cases it isn’t. And I can tell you right now why Duval has no interest in going to Australia for the WMP. It is because he doesn’t like matchplay. Why would he travel to another country to compete in a format that he really doesn’t like?
And playing matchplay *in another country* is obviously at the bottom of favourite event pile. I seriously doubt that many of the PGA Tour players have much interest in a WGT on other than an abstract level. They pay it lip service, but don’t really do much to advance it.
Yes, I can see that comfort and lots of home-earned dollars would easily prevail in their thoughts. Maybe if the WGT was more lucrative than the USPGA they might revise their thoughts. While I would like to see them play better, for the most part, matchplay is not a strong point for American golfers. It just isn’t as popular here as it is in Europe, Australia and Asis. Matchplay is more popular among better amateurs, maybe it will work its way back to the pros from there.
Matchplay is not a common format here either. If you’d seen the quizzical looks on the faces of a lot of spectators at the President’s Cup, you’d realise that it is often misunderstood here. The criticisms is because there is little or no competition in many of the events.
Well, that’s not quite true. There are many fine golfers playing in Japan, like Minoza, Franco and Maruyama, plus a heap of (good but slightly lesser light) Japanese and Australians. Jumbo might win a lot, but he has to to get as many world-ranking points. I can hear you saying already that if more Americans went to Japan then he would face some competiton, but again I have to ask, why?
Why, indeed? Again, I wasn’t necessarily talking about whole Tours, but those one-off events with large purses or significant championships. I bet Jack Nicklaus gladly puts six Australian Opens on his resume. Don’t forget also that US golfers are heavily marketed here too. A personal appearance occasionally might do wonders in a keen, albeit small, market. BTW, some golfers make much more money playing on the Australian Tour or the Japanese Tour, than they would on say the Nike Tour. And the main Australian events are about equal to a mid-ranked PGA Tour event in terms of prize-money. There is no advantage for American players with a Tour card to go to Japan, or France or Australia.
Of course. And if I had a PGA Tour card I wouldn’t play in these either. But I might have a spirit of adventure and go to good overseas tournaments, in the off-season, for the experience and the chance to enhance my reputation and earnings. I’d probably also pick up an appearance fee that guaranteed my trip. There’s no advantage for Jumbo to go to the US, other than for a major. He makes a very comfortable living in Japan, just as good US pros do in the USA, and a few Australian pros do here. Are you saying they wouldn’t want to put it on in prime time, or they would? Or does everyone want to watch Friends then? Unfortunately, yes. Even majors aren’t shown during prime time in the US. Golf is very popular, but as a particiapnt sport, not a spectator sport. I would almost bet money that the most avid watchers of TV golf are golfers who have finished their rounds and are sitting in the clubhouse. I know that is almost the only time I watch golf on the weekends when the weather is good. If the weather is bad I will watch from home, unless the wife has chores for me to do.
I can see your point. But here, they want to show golf live (i.e. mid-afternoon) which corresponds with *exactly* when everyone’s playing anyway. Isn’t most golf there shown on cable anyway? If they don’t want to show it live in prime time, what’s it matter when they show it? Show it delayed at the time that is most advantageous for ratings. Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club – http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham RSG Roll Call – http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
I think you’re right that it’s wishful thinking, Colin. The travel distance and timing weigh against it. And it’s also terrible for live coverage by the American TV networks, so you could rule out a major source of income for the players.
there was a quote in a local paper here today (which is a variation of the original article colin quoted) and a key point was made, "the US golfers really like the idea of a World Tour, as long as it stays in the US" Fore Right!, Mark Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it."
Colin, You have some valid points, particularly from a non-US point of view, but there are mitigating circumstances. Well, this brings me to one of the Australian golfing public’s pet gripes, that of current-day Americans being apparently totally unprepared to travel or advance golf outside the USA, save for a few excursions to the British Open (because it’s a major). It’s so unlike their forebears (Nicklaus, Palmer, Watson etc.) who were prepared to travel as golfing ambassadors.
There is a huge difference in the perception of golf around the world these days, and especially in the US. When Arnie, Jack and Tom were in their primes, golf was still considered an elitist sport for rich white men. For the most part, that perception is gone. Golf, especially in the US, but also in Australia and Asia, is a very popular sport that doesn’t really need to market itself anymore. The PGA Tour still needs to be marketed, but not the sport itself. And since the PGA tour doesn’t stage any events in Australia or Asia there is no marketing reason for PGA players to go. THe to players certainly don’t need the purse money from the non-US tours. If they do it is generally for either appearance money or as a goodwill gesture. An example of this is TW’s annual entry in the Johhny Walker Classic in Thailand, which he does in recognition of his mother’s heritage. Australian golfers (and those from many other countries) always have to travel to advance their cause, whether it is to Japan, Europe or the USA. It’s where the fame and money is. So they get good at it. They also travel back to Australia regularly because they feel they owe something to golf. It also doesn’t seem to stop them winning. It might also improve their game playing in a wide variety of conditions.
I don’t see the point. The reason they travel is because they want to go where the money is. And I am sure that it does a lot to improve their game. But the best always go where the money is, while hopefully remembering where they came from. They go back to Australia because they feel obligated to help advance Australian golf or just to visit family and play in a friendly and familiar environement. How is that different form American golfers staying is the US to advance American golf? US golfers are already where they came from. Are you suggesting that they owe it to Australians or Germans to play in events overseas? But you’d think listening to your blokes that leaving the USA is worse than death. We’ve already had three US golfers complaining about the travel to the next (2001) World Matchplay (Duval, Estes, Calcevecchia) on the the basis that it’s a long way to travel to play maybe ten holes (max loss in the first round). Well big deal … Australian golf pros take that risk all the time. If it’s not the travel, it’s the time of year, or the weather. Maybe it’s the water. Maybe it’s because your golfers are pampered wusses
The question again is why would an American golfer who has his PGA Tour card be interested in playing on another tour where the money is significantly less and what they do win doesn’t even count towards retaining their PGA Tour card, earning Pyder Cup points, etc? Plus the hassles of dealing with international travel, foreign taxes, customs, etc., etc., etc. And I can tell you right now why Duval has no interest in going to Australia for the WMP. It is because he doesn’t like matchplay. Why would he travel to another country to compete in a format that he really doesn’t like? Are today’s Americans committed to the idea of a "World Golf Tour", or does their commitment extend to it only if it’s held in the USA?
I seriously doubt that many of the PGA Tour players have much interest in a WGT on other than an abstract level. They pay it lip service, but don’t really do much to advance it. Perhaps it’s because whenever they go overseas, like the Ryder Cup in Europe, or the President’s Cup here, they get their butt whipped.
While I would like to see them play better, for the most part, matchplay is not a strong point for American golfers. It just isn’t as popular here as it is in Europe, Australia and Asis. Matchplay is more popular among better amateurs, maybe it will work its way back to the pros from there. I hear criticisms of Jumbo Ozaki never leaving Japan, or Franco and Minoza getting too many ranking points because they only play in Japan. Yet it doesn’t seem to be reciprocated that US golfers hate leaving their homeland. Perhaps you could take a leaf from your tennis players, who are journeymen and women world-wide because the money is world-wide.
The critisisms is because there is little or no competition in many of the events. Jumbo has won exactly 1 event outside of Japan. I can hear you saying already that if more Americans went to Japan then he would face some competiton, but again I have to ask, why? There is no advantage for American players with a Tour card to go to Japan, or France or Australia. And I don’t buy your argument about prime time TV. It didn’t stop Sydney getting the Olympics, a major part of the income being US TV rights. A golf event that runs from, say, 12 noon to 5 pm in Sydney or Melbourne, can be shown live on TV from 8pm to 1am Eastern US time, 7pm to midnight Central US time, 6 pm to 11 pm US Mountain time and 5pm to 10pm US Pacific time. Are you saying they wouldn’t want to put it on in prime time, or they would? Or does everyone want to watch Friends then?
Unfortunately, yes. Even majors aren’t shown during prime time in the US. Golf is very popular, but as a particiapnt sport, not a spectator sport. I would almost bet money that the most avid watchers of TV golf are golfers who have finished their rounds and are sitting in the clubhouse. I know that is almost the only time I watch golf on the weekends when the weather is good. If the weather is bad I will watch from home, unless the wife has chores for me to do. <soapbox off Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club – http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham RSG Roll Call – http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
– Good Golf Dan For e-mail replace "nospam" with "varian"
I think you’re right that it’s wishful thinking, Colin. The travel distance and timing weigh against it. And it’s also terrible for live coverage by the American TV networks, so you could rule out a major source of income for the players.
Well, this brings me to one of the Australian golfing public’s pet gripes, that of current-day Americans being apparently totally unprepared to travel or advance golf outside the USA, save for a few excursions to the British Open (because it’s a major). It’s so unlike their forebears (Nicklaus, Palmer, Watson etc.) who were prepared to travel as golfing ambassadors. Australian golfers (and those from many other countries) always have to travel to advance their cause, whether it is to Japan, Europe or the USA. It’s where the fame and money is. So they get good at it. They also travel back to Australia regularly because they feel they owe something to golf. It also doesn’t seem to stop them winning. It might also improve their game playing in a wide variety of conditions. But you’d think listening to your blokes that leaving the USA is worse than death. We’ve already had three US golfers complaining about the travel to the next (2001) World Matchplay (Duval, Estes, Calcevecchia) on the the basis that it’s a long way to travel to play maybe ten holes (max loss in the first round). Well big deal … Australian golf pros take that risk all the time. If it’s not the travel, it’s the time of year, or the weather. Maybe it’s the water. Maybe it’s because your golfers are pampered wusses Are today’s Americans committed to the idea of a "World Golf Tour", or does their commitment extend to it only if it’s held in the USA? Perhaps it’s because whenever they go overseas, like the Ryder Cup in Europe, or the President’s Cup here, they get their butt whipped. I hear criticisms of Jumbo Ozaki never leaving Japan, or Franco and Minoza getting too many ranking points because they only play in Japan. Yet it doesn’t seem to be reciprocated that US golfers hate leaving their homeland. Perhaps you could take a leaf from your tennis players, who are journeymen and women world-wide because the money is world-wide. And I don’t buy your argument about prime time TV. It didn’t stop Sydney getting the Olympics, a major part of the income being US TV rights. A golf event that runs from, say, 12 noon to 5 pm in Sydney or Melbourne, can be shown live on TV from 8pm to 1am Eastern US time, 7pm to midnight Central US time, 6 pm to 11 pm US Mountain time and 5pm to 10pm US Pacific time. Are you saying they wouldn’t want to put it on in prime time, or they would? Or does everyone want to watch Friends then? <soapbox off Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club – http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham RSG Roll Call – http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
If anything, the fifth should be the players.
Interesting story in Melbourne’s Age this morning (reprinted below), in the light of recent discussions in rsg about a fifth major. IMHO, it’s wishful thinking from Happell.
I think you’re right that it’s wishful thinking, Colin. The travel distance and timing weigh against it. And it’s also terrible for live coverage by the American TV networks, so you could rule out a major source of income for the players. — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
"You play a place like Royal Adelaide and that’s just pure golf, the way it should be. That gets me excited. I really loved playing Royal Adelaide. So many courses we play on the PGA tour are just average courses."
I think that Estes must have fried his brain in the Australian sun. The courses that these guys get to play are so far from average it ain’t funny. They need to play some of the muni’s in my hometown I will add very quickly before someone points it out, the US Open is schedules to be played at a muni course in Long Island, NY. Bethpage Black is one of the toughest courses that these guys wil play all year (great track if they get in in real US Open shape). To say that the rest fo the courses are averages is just too ridiculous. As far as this fifth major stuff is concerned, I reserve my comments Nothing against the Australian sun, by the way. I am hoping that sometime within the next 5 years I will be able to visit your country. I want to see the southern night sky Cheers Colin Wilson
David
I did read an article once (probably in Golf Digest) where the Players Championship was counted as a half major. So players had a major count of 3.5 or 2.5 etc. Maybe the Australian Open should be a quarter major and so on until the Swaziland Open which is a 1/100 th major. Try adding that up !!
Well, I’ll put in a vote for the Trentham Open in October to be worth .001. I might even get a fraction of a thousandth of a rating point! Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club – http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham RSG Roll Call – http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
god colin i can hear the arguments already. nicklaus won 18 majors, no he didn’t he won 20 … no no 26 argh !!!!
Yeah, but then Norman would have seven and Elkington two. Hell, even Wayne Riley, Peter Fowler and Peter Senior would have one. Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club – http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham RSG Roll Call – http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
I did read an article once (probably in Golf Digest) where the Players Championship was counted as a half major. So players had a major count of 3.5 or 2.5 etc. Maybe the Australian Open should be a quarter major and so on until the Swaziland Open which is a 1/100 th major. Try adding that up !! Craig van Nieuwkerk http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/bugfix/718 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Among the international players to have won the title are Jack Nicklaus (six times), Gary Player (seven times), Arnold Palmer, Tom Watson, Bobby Locke and Gene Sarazen. god colin i can hear the arguments already. nicklaus won 18 majors, no he didn’t he won 20 … no no 26 argh !!!! brett — Brett R. Fenton Center for Waste & Wastewater Treatment School of Civil & Environmental Engineering University of NSW Sydney, Australia
Among the international players to have won the title are Jack Nicklaus (six times), Gary Player (seven times), Arnold Palmer, Tom Watson, Bobby Locke and Gene Sarazen.
god colin i can hear the arguments already. nicklaus won 18 majors, no he didn’t he won 20 … no no 26 argh !!!! brett — Brett R. Fenton Center for Waste & Wastewater Treatment School of Civil & Environmental Engineering University of NSW Sydney, Australia
Interesting story in Melbourne’s Age this morning (reprinted below), in the light of recent discussions in rsg about a fifth major. IMHO, it’s wishful thinking from Happell. However, in the same edition, Estes was also quoted as being sympathetic to Duval’s reticence to play in Melbourne in the World Match Play Championships (first week of January 2001), citing the expense, travel distance and inconvenient time of the year as distractions. (The story is at http://www.theage.com.au/daily/990505/golf/golf5.html – must have been Estes’ big week) BTW, Metropolitan GC, across the road from Masters venue Huntingdale, has been named as the venue for the 2001 Andersen World Match Play Championship, the first time the event will be held outside the USA. American joins call to lift standing of Open By CHARLES HAPPELL Up-and-coming American Bob Estes has joined the small, but growing, chorus forthe Australian Open championship to become the fifth major on the golf calendar. Estes, a Texan who is ranked No.38 in the world, played in the Australian Open at Royal Adelaide last year and said the experience had opened his eyes to the quality of courses, and prestige of national championships, being played outside the United States. Speaking from his home in Austin yesterday, Estes said he agreed with Englishman Nick Faldo’s call last November for the Australian Open to join the Big Four – the US Masters, US and British Opens and US PGA Championship – and become a major. "I just wish it was considered one of the five major championships, as it should be," he said. "The Australian Open should be a major championship, like it is in tennis." "You play a place like Royal Adelaide and that’s just pure golf, the way it should be. That gets me excited. I really loved playing Royal Adelaide. So many courses we play on the PGA tour are just average courses." "I just wish the Australian Open was considered like the US Open and British Open, and had that same sort of lofty status." "It’s a shame it hasn’t developed into that. I guess the purse typically has been fairly small compared to what we’re used to in America, and it takes a while to travel there, but obviously what makes a major championship is much more than just money." Estes, who is 21st on the US tour’s moneylist this season, said he would love to return to Australia next summer for the Open at Royal Sydney but had not yet decided on his schedule. It was at Royal Adelaide last November that Faldo, a six-time major winner, said the Australian Open should have been made a major 30 years ago. "They should just rubber stamp it and get it done with," he said. "All the great players have played it, they have all come to Australia." Among the international players to have won the title are Jack Nicklaus (six times), Gary Player (seven times), Arnold Palmer, Tom Watson, Bobby Locke and Gene Sarazen. Their names are engraved on the Stonehaven Cup next to those of local stars such as Greg Norman, Peter Thomson and David Graham. Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club – http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham RSG Roll Call – http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
I always thought that if I ever had enough money, I’d start my own tour. It would be open to whoever sent in their money first. We wouldn’t play for money or gift certificates, but just trophies. Low gross, low net, longest drive, closest to the pin. But what would make it perfect is, it would be all year round. 52 weeks a year their would be someplace to play. The course wouldn’t be crowded, and it would be set up nice. No aerated greens, because we would schedule the tournaments at the right times. Now the good part. Week one. Pebble Beach, Spyglass, Poppy Hills, Spanish Bay, and Pasatiempo. One round each. The other two days are spent playing just Pebble Beach over and over. Week two. Hawaii……Probably spend the month over there. Week five or six. Florida….Another month as the weather heats up. So many good courses. Up to the Carolina’s and Virginia’s….Another good month. Hit all kinds of top 100 courses in the US. And of course we would have to go back to Pebble more than once a year… The endless golf tour….. Great Britain in the summer….Have to hit all those classics over there…. Little hops over to Asia and Australia. Who wants to join me?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always thought that if I ever had enough money, I’d start my own tour. It would be open to whoever sent in their money first. We wouldn’t play for money or gift certificates, but just trophies. Low gross, low net, longest drive, closest to the pin. But what would make it perfect is, it would be all year round. 52 weeks a year their would be someplace to play. The course wouldn’t be crowded, and it would be set up nice. No aerated greens, because we would schedule the tournaments at the right times. Now the good part. Week one. Pebble Beach, Spyglass, Poppy Hills, Spanish Bay, and Pasatiempo. One round each. The other two days are spent playing just Pebble Beach over and over. Week two. Hawaii……Probably spend the month over there. Week five or six. Florida….Another month as the weather heats up. So many good courses. Up to the Carolina’s and Virginia’s….Another good month. Hit all kinds of top 100 courses in the US. And of course we would have to go back to Pebble more than once a year… The endless golf tour….. Great Britain in the summer….Have to hit all those classics over there…. Little hops over to Asia and Australia. Who wants to join me?
Been there, done that. Well, not really… but I have spent extensive periods of time on the road. And the truth is, unless you just really, really like airports and hotels and being away from home, believe it or not, this actually gets old after about…oh…a week or two. I guess it depends on your personality. The golf part sounds great. But I’d miss my dog. Randy
What a sad sad world we live in when people need to start making excuses to undermine the great accomplishments of athletes. It seems that just about any excuse will do. With clever wording you can conjure up any BS* excuse to demonize the athlete in order to inhibit their records from making into the the books.. I was reading about female runner Tegla Laroupe who had two stunning victories, one in the marathon and another in the 1 hour run. Since road race marathons cannott have official world records they could not strip her of her victory, but they ceartainly could and did critisize her.. But for the 1 hour run the governing body (IAAF) can strip her of hr glory if it suits their whim and ‘political motivation’ (could this excuse have something to do with the ever increasing resentment towards foreigners who are completely dominating the running world (specifically the anti-Kenyan controversy which is slowly but surely occuring to the point where the race administratrors are actually limiting or outright denying Kenyans access to ceartain prominant races.) First great excuse is the tired old "drug" or "steroid" debate (even though most of the athletes that use drugs dont win the races.. like I said before.. not many care about the drug using losers.. ). Then the other great excuse.. "pacing". There is no doubt that being paced by a faster runner does make a difference. Nobody can deny that. But what is the purpose of a running race? To WIN? Or to win by yourself? Hmmmmm… Geee… In bike racing, they have this little event called a "Time Trial". A time trial is you alone against the clock. No pacing, no teammates, no drafting in other riders slipstreams. But running, especially marathons and road races, are NOT individual time trials. There is no such thing as a time trial in running, as far as I can think of.. You always run with other runners. So if Loroupe wants to tag along with male runners so she can up her pace, then best if luck to her.. she should be praised for having the ability to push herself and hang on with the pace of top male runners. Just amazing. Its okay to pace yourself with woman runners if you are a woman. But you cant pace yourself with males.. Talk about discrimination!! Talk about double standards! (lets see, do men get in trouble for pacing themselves with women? NO THEY DONT! In many marathons, some of the slower guys have paced themselves so they can finish with the top woman.. I have seen a great many men in the NYCity marathon trail Greta Weitz for miles. But do those guys get busted? No! Because nobody gives a shit when you lose. This is all about making excuses to justify taking away somebodies victory.
Let me interupt your foaming-at-the-mouth diatribe with some facts: 1.. Laroupe’s marathon record was not reversed. While the the two Kenyan men in the marathon were there for the sole purpose of aiding Tegla, I think you need to reconsider what is truly "SAD". Perhaps your alligator tears need to be shed on the other women in that race who did not have such an advantage. 2. I have heard nothing about challenging her 1 hour time, so are you simply trying to create a strawman issue here? Spare us. 3. The anti-Kenyan controversy, as you call it, exists only in the minds of the uniformned. You are probably referring to the Bolder to Boulder race in which then changed the number of scoring members on a team. There was no limit on the number of Kenyans who could run, as I recall. Also, awarding prize money to the top US finishers is no crime the last time I checked. Race sponsors can award money based on any criteria they choose, whether is meets with your "fairness" standards or not. 4. To my knowledge, there is no rule against men pacing women (at least in the USATF rules) or any pacing at all. There are rules against providing unfair advantages to runners however. 5. Your claim of "political motivation" and increasing resentment of foreign athletes seems to be your opinion, or that of a very small minority. Please don’t represent your opinions as facts. 6. By referring to the "tired old drug and steriod debate" are you inferring that we shouldn’t be concerned with this problem? What is sad is that there is currently no way to properly test for many performance enhancing drugs which thereby throws a cloud over every great performance. 7. Your argument that they only care about the winners who use drugs is totally off base. In USATF races and many other championships they randomly test a percentage of all card-carrying athletes and a higher percentage of the award winners and top placers. The idea behind drug testing is not to extend the useless "War on Drugs" but to deter runners from using drugs to their advantage (ie winning prize money or records). As for the guy who took steroids and finished in 487th….yep….who cares….no damage done (except to his body). The next time you want to address what is "SAD" you may want to take that huge chip off your shoulder so as not to skew your view of reality. Thom "have a nice day" Trimble – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What a sad sad world we live in when people need to start making excuses to undermine the great accomplishments of athletes. It seems that just about any excuse will do. With clever wording you can conjure up any BS* excuse to demonize the athlete in order to inhibit their records from making into the the books.. I was reading about female runner Tegla Laroupe who had two stunning victories, one in the marathon and another in the 1 hour run. Since road race marathons cannott have official world records they could not strip her of her victory, but they ceartainly could and did critisize her.. But for the 1 hour run the governing body (IAAF) can strip her of hr glory if it suits their whim and ‘political motivation’ (could this excuse have something to do with the ever increasing resentment towards foreigners who are completely dominating the running world (specifically the anti-Kenyan controversy which is slowly but surely occuring to the point where the race administratrors are actually limiting or outright denying Kenyans access to ceartain prominant races.) First great excuse is the tired old "drug" or "steroid" debate (even though most of the athletes that use drugs dont win the races.. like I said before.. not many care about the drug using losers.. ). Then the other great excuse.. "pacing". There is no doubt that being paced by a faster runner does make a difference. Nobody can deny that. But what is the purpose of a running race? To WIN? Or to win by yourself? Hmmmmm… Geee… In bike racing, they have this little event called a "Time Trial". A time trial is you alone against the clock. No pacing, no teammates, no drafting in other riders slipstreams. But running, especially marathons and road races, are NOT individual time trials. There is no such thing as a time trial in running, as far as I can think of.. You always run with other runners. So if Loroupe wants to tag along with male runners so she can up her pace, then best if luck to her.. she should be praised for having the ability to push herself and hang on with the pace of top male runners. Just amazing. Its okay to pace yourself with woman runners if you are a woman. But you cant pace yourself with males.. Talk about discrimination!! Talk about double standards! (lets see, do men get in trouble for pacing themselves with women? NO THEY DONT! In many marathons, some of the slower guys have paced themselves so they can finish with the top woman.. I have seen a great many men in the NYCity marathon trail Greta Weitz for miles. But do those guys get busted? No! Because nobody gives a shit when you lose. This is all about making excuses to justify taking away somebodies victory.
Unfortunately, I think you missed the primary motivation behind my message. This is not about Tegla, nor is this about her record. This is not about "straw-man" issues. This is about the topic of "advantages" which has been around for… well… probably longer than I and many here have been alive… but to say the least, has been discussed heatedly in running magazines, by running organization and race officials, as well as many athletes themselves seem to cling to strong opinions. One only needs to read archives of this and other relevant newsgroups, and to go through back issues of various running magazines to see the reader letters and editorials. This is not about Loroupe, but about performance enhancing drugs; its about "blood doping" both of the legitimate and so-called "illegittimate" kind; this is about pacing and a few other more esoteric issues.. There have always been excuses made why some athletes have an "advantage" (be it a real or imagined advantage).. And this issue will continue for decades, maybe even centuries.. The next generation will likely yield performance enhancing drugs, the likes of which we could not possibly believe could exist even by todays standards… stuff which goes way beyond steroids or blood doping.. We will also get into "genetic engineering". That may be along time away.. and it may seem like science fiction at this point in time.. but we are all pretty insignificant as far as the time line goes.. Long after we and our children and maybe our grandchildren are dead, future runners will deal with genetically engineers athletes of some sorts or another. And even then, people will make excuses that genetic manipulation gives an "unfair advantage" to ceartain athletes (be they runners, weightlifters, boxers, cyclists, etc..) I think we need to ditch this old fashioned attitude of surpressing technological improvements under the guise of morality… because thats all it is… its a moral issue.. and each individual has to make their own choice. If somebody wants to pump steroids into their veins or take it orally.. well… dont let me stop you from plunging that needle into your vein.. But when it comes to a race. I wont dare have the audacity to claim that I had an unfair advantage.. I had plenty of opportunities at my disposal to use various performance enhancing methods.. some legitimate such as blood doping at altitude through aclimitization. 6. By referring to the "tired old drug and steriod debate" are you inferring that we shouldn’t be concerned with this problem? What is sad is that there is currently no way to properly test for many performance enhancing drugs which thereby throws a cloud over every great performance.
I’m not saying the world of sports will be all peachy when everyone is "popping pills". I dont agree with that anymore than I agree with people sitting around watching TV 8 hours a day and popping aspirin by the billions. Aspirin and other over the counter medicines are consumeed by americans more than in any other country in the world… by far.. and we think that pumping aspirin and other crap into our systems is just hunky dorey and legitimate.. But… like I said.. if thats what people want to do.. then you’ve got to let them live their lives and just worry about your own body. Perhaps your alligator tears need to be shed on the other women woman in that race who did not have such an advantage.
Now, why should we be considerned about the other women in the context of this conversation. Everyone theoretically has the ability to use the same strategies. If ceartain athletes choose not to utilize a particular strategy to their advantage then that is their choice (whether your talking about pacing, "blood doping" or performance anhancing drugs.) 2. I have heard nothing about challenging her 1 hour time, so are you simply trying to create a strawman issue here? Spare us.
Talk of it has been on various running web sites. And to reiterate. This is not about Loroupe. This is about a much larger issue which has existed for decades and will continue likewise thereafter. 3. The anti-Kenyan controversy, as you call it, exists only in the minds of the uniformned. You are probably referring to the Bolder to Boulder race in which then changed the number of scoring members on a team. There was no limit on the number of Kenyans who could run, as I recall.
This is a hot topic, which goes far beyond this one race you mentioned. It is mostly opinions at this point; but opinions can very quickly lead to rules and decisions being made of a discriminatory nature. awarding prize money to the top US finishers is no crime the last time I checked. Race sponsors can award money based on any criteria they choose, whether is meets with your "fairness" standards or not.
And this of course… has absolutely nothing to do with my original message.. In fact, I would normally take yourside as a staunch libertarian…. but for now I’ll play devils advocate… So, if its "unfair" to use performance enhancing drugs, yet it is not unfair to "fix" races by eliminating better runners (Kenyans). Seems like your "fixing the race" to me.. Is that supposed to be good for the oh so moral sport of running? If we are going to be "fixing races" keeping out the better runners… then ceartainly people should not give a shit about drug using athletes… because either way, it gives an "unfair advantage". As for the guy who took steroids and finished in 487th….yep….who cares….no damage done (except to his body).
Exactly my point.. "who cares" if he didnt win (I do). On the other hand.. maybe he would have finished 452nd instead of 487th if he had not been taking steroids. If we are going to butt our noses into who takes what chemicals.. then we must care about each and every runner, be they in first place.. or 5,670th place. Which of course means we either drug test every single athlete… or we do so on a random basis for every runner from first to last place. Then we get into privacy issues.. I think the problem could simply be solved by not worrying about how other people choose to train or what pills they choose to pop. Science must always take precedence over morality.
We will also get into "genetic engineering". That may be along time away.. and it may seem like science fiction at this point in time.. but we are all pretty insignificant as far as the time line goes.. Long after we and our children and maybe our grandchildren are dead, future runners will deal with genetically engineers athletes of some sorts or another. And even then, people will make excuses that genetic manipulation gives an "unfair advantage" to ceartain athletes (be they runners, weightlifters, boxers, cyclists, etc..)
I just had to add in another amusing anecdote while we are on the subject of "unfair advantages" and how it raly boils down tp a bunch of people looking to make excuses. Let us take a trip into the future for some more science fiction.. How about bio-mechanically engineered people (a/k/a "bionic" people). Would they have an "unfair advantage" and need to be banned from competing? Perhaps, your imagination is not that vast…. good.. Because I have a current parallel which applies. Lets talk about runners with prosthetic limbs. Should we allow these "peg-legs" to run in races? Ahat advantage do "peg leg" atheletes have over ordinary athletes…. I am so glad you were thinking that.. because I’m going to answer that. Let us use a fabulous excuse to justify why peg leg runners have an advantage…. now what would be a really great excuse? "Hmmm Let me think!" <light bulb pops on over my head "I know! Lets use the same bullshit excuse that about 200,000 golfers nationwide used when some young upcoming golfer wanted to play on a major golf tour. You see his problem was that he had an injury which made walking extremely painfull… But you see.. The golfers said "sorry, ya’ godda’ walk… Walking is part of the game.. and you’d have an unfair advantage if you used a golf cart." Duh.. and I though golfing was about hitting the ball in the F* hole. So lets use the same excuse to ban peg leg disabled runners. They should not be allowed to compete because they cant "feel the pain" in their legs and arms, and calves, etc.. And without feeling the pain… well… they clearly have an "advantage".. ahh yess.. I just love making excuses. Come up with some bullshit and you can make any excuse seem legitimate. You just need enough people saying the same thing.. and it lends legitimacy to the "excuse".
Going to vacation in Vegas in late August. Want to do a few rounds while I am there. Favorite courses? Would like to stay under $100/round. Also, advice on how to book tee time(s)? Thanks in advance.
Try Pauite courses about 20 miles West of N. Las Vegas Blvd., I95. They’re beautiful desert courses with exceptional greens. It’s $100 regularly, but I’ve played there at 6:30am last September for $65. Courses designed by Pete Dye so bring a good sand wedge. Also, for good room and golf package, try Primm Valley, 30-40 minutes south of Vegas; $99 for room at Primmadonna resort and a round at Primm, double occupancy. Primm Valley GC is a new Tom Fazio course, so landscaping isn’t quite matured or completed, but a very nice layout with very challenging greens. I’ve been able to book tee times by just calling them up about a week ahead. Best info on Las Vegas golf i’ve found on web is at http://www.golflv.com/intro.html Have fun. JM Going to vacation in Vegas in late August. Want to do a few rounds while I am there. Favorite courses? Would like to stay under $100/round. Also, advice on how to book tee time(s)? Thanks in advance.
Drink lots of water. play as early as possible, and I think the course I played was called angel park the mtn. course….. also swing by the calaway place and drop a hundred on the hour of swing anal and club fitting……
Drive about 1 hour north to Mesquitt, NV. Go to Casablanca Spa and Resort. Play Casablanca course, about 50 bucks. Also, the Palms, about 10 min from there. Both very beautiful courses and in great shape. Just played in two FILA World Golf Tour tournaments there and had a blast. Jon
The way you win handicapped tournaments is you find a way to pad your handicap a few strokes. That’s the only method that works, at least for low handicappers. There’s no way a golfer whose ability is accurately reflected by a 5 handicap can win a tournament in the vast majority of men’s clubs. Shoot 70? Not bloody likely for a real 5.
Your advice to "find a way to pad your handicap a few strokes" is really a recommendation to cheat. Have you proclaimed this as a good idea to your tournement playing partners? Your idea may sound honest and provocative in the relatively anonymous forum of the internet but this idea expressed on the 18th green might be taken as skulduggery. – Kevin
You’re talking about adopting the UK approach to handicapping.
which i think is what we use here in oz. here is a short summary for those interested, plus some comments with regards to "padding" your handicap. 1. to get a h/cap a player must belong to a club affiliated with the australian golf union (agu – australian equivalent of the usga sort of). 2. your initial h/cap comes from submitting 5 cards of which the average is taken (all 5 count) 3. your handicap is then adjusted as you submit competition cards for review. if you are out practising etc you don’t submit. 4. the handicap is typically adjusted against the competition course rating (ccr). if you are above the ccr expect 0.1 shot back. if you shoot the ccr there is no change to your handicap. if you shoot below the ccr the handicapper lowers your handicap accordingly depending on your current handicap. for example i think a 36 handicapper loses 0.5 shots for every shot they break the ccr by, whereas a 2 handicapper loses only 0.1 for each shot they break by. i don’t know if this solves entirely sandbagging. it is more difficult to pad your handicap in a short amount of time though i guess people still try. also you find your handicap is pretty stable either coming down pretty slowly or going up slowly, though obviously there are exceptions to the rule. i’d like to hear from those of you in the us who would like to compare the pros and cons of this method against the usga method. — peace brett brett r fenton school of civil engineering university of nsw australia
You’re talking about adopting the UK approach to handicapping. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone knows of such a rule, please respond. On the chance that there is not any USGA rule to take care of this problem, maybe someone has had experience with this (I’d be surprised if this hasn’t occurred many times before) and can lend their solution. Thanks in advance for your help. Tournament Handicapping, that is making a handicap from tournaments played rather than just regular play, discourages the perennial sandbagger. In my association, we used the lower of the two–that from only tournaments or that from regular rounds–for the tournament
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read an interesting article by Jimmy Roberts at ESPNSportsZone.com (check it out) and it got me thinking… Maybe Roberto DeVicenzo could get a note from his doctor stating that he had a learning disorder, and it was his "disability" that caused him to sign an incorrect scorecard at the 1968 Masters resulting in his being disqualified. Hello green jacket! Randy Roberto DeVicenzo is still playing in PROAM and outings, he still scoring in the low 70"s. Do not know exactly his age, about 75+ and walking.
Try again, Jose. I don’t know what scores he is posting, but Roberto DiVicenzo (he of 1968 masters fame) has been playing on the Heavenly Golf Tour since about 1993. — The One; The Only; The Original; The Real Deal!
Try again, Jose. I don’t know what scores he is posting, but Roberto DiVicenzo (he of 1968 masters fame) has been playing on the Heavenly Golf Tour since about 1993.
Shame that the Masters scorecard incident overshadows his Open win of 1967 ….. I think Mr. de Vicenzo is still alive and playing some Super Seniors division on the Senior Tour. Had the privilege of meeting him in Austin at the last Legends tournament held here. He was still a big, very fit man. Winningest golfer of all time with over 150 wins worldwide, 39 national championships. Played in places nobody else would go. A true ambassador and trailblazer for the game. Bobby Galvez
Read an interesting article by Jimmy Roberts at ESPNSportsZone.com (check it out) and it got me thinking… Maybe Roberto DeVicenzo could get a note from his doctor stating that he had a learning disorder, and it was his "disability" that caused him to sign an incorrect scorecard at the 1968 Masters resulting in his being disqualified. Hello green jacket! Randy
Read an interesting article by Jimmy Roberts at ESPNSportsZone.com (check it out) and it got me thinking… Maybe Roberto DeVicenzo could get a note from his doctor stating that he had a learning disorder, and it was his "disability" that caused him to sign an incorrect scorecard at the 1968 Masters resulting in his being disqualified. Hello green jacket! Randy
Roberto DeVicenzo is still playing in PROAM and outings, he still scoring in the low 70"s. Do not know exactly his age, about 75+ and walking. — Jose Bruniard 1741 – SW 39 Street Apt#103 Fargo, 58103, ND. U.S.A.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read an interesting article by Jimmy Roberts at ESPNSportsZone.com (check it out) and it got me thinking… Maybe Roberto DeVicenzo could get a note from his doctor stating that he had a learning disorder, and it was his "disability" that caused him to sign an incorrect scorecard at the 1968 Masters resulting in his being disqualified. Hello green jacket! Randy Roberto DeVicenzo is still playing in PROAM and outings, he still scoring in the low 70"s. Do not know exactly his age, about 75+ and walking.
Try again, Jose. I don’t know what scores he is posting, but Roberto DiVicenzo (he of 1968 masters fame) has been playing on the Heavenly Golf Tour since about 1990. — The One; The Only; The Original; The Real Deal!
Is there anyone who can explian me how Golf tours work? Is there a main tour as ATP in tennis or are there different ones? Thanks a lot. Claudio Mantelli Torino – Italy http://space.tin.it/io/cmantell/
Simply put, there are a number of tours. US Mens, Senior, "Super Senior", Ladies European Mens, Senior, Ladies Japanese… etc Each has a qualifying school and certain exception rules to get in that sets the grade; once in, fundamentally winning enough money or winning events outright keeps you in. Eg a win = a 2 year exception to need to qualify, winning some majors is a 10-year exemption, etc – there are lots of categories for each event. At the end of the year, if you aren’t exempt or otherwise haven’t met the requirements eg haven’t won enough money, then it’s back to Q school. Below each of the main tours is a "feeder" tour – much smaller prizes, but you learn/keep practising your trade, and may gain an exemption back up if you do well enough – eg the Nike Below those are training tournaments for club pros. Some tour events are opens, some are invitational, most events with sponsorship invite some non-qualifying players as star draws or to fill the numbers, or just because the sponsor likes you. Other events are based on things like the money list, last season’s winners or world rankings for entry. In addition there are the Majors – Augusta Master’s (invitational), US PGA (mostly ranking), US Open and British Open and three new "world" events, that count as "on your tour" events for ranking, and "played enough" numbers. Eg this year, you need to play 11 tournaments to stay a member on the European Mens tour (EPGA), and you can do 7 of these with the 4 majors and 3 world, and the season end "top 30" tournament takes you to 8, leaving only 3 actually from the tour-member only events – but you have to be VERY good to get into all of these events. The top 30 on the mens’ tour basically can play where they like, lower ranked players have to keep much more to their home tour. Between the majors and the new world events, this may become a "super/world tour" – the world events were largely a response to a proposed "World" circuit. There are also special events like the rider cup, and non tour – mostly big money TV or advertising – events, and some big amateur events. There are web sites for each of the main tours, or look from somewhere like golfweb or igolf. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there anyone who can explian me how Golf tours work? Is there a main tour as ATP in tennis or are there different ones? Thanks a lot. Claudio Mantelli Torino – Italy http://space.tin.it/io/cmantell/
I think it is cool that Tiger has his own magazine. I think he is a real inspiration to a lot of young kids and it’s nice to see someone so young do so well at something he loves to do. I wish all young people were so determined.
junior golfers are the wave of the future and many are playing in tournaments to compete against the best juniors out there right now. Check out the web sit for the International Junior Golf Tour at www.ijgt.com
i 2nd that DAN THE MARINERS FAN
just the greatest piece of golf seen in years great stuff tiger!!!!!
I have one thing to say about the whole TIGERMania——-Even though there are sceptics and fanatics——that say he will fade or he will break every record it is too early to tell——-however I would love to see it happen because whenever I watch him I am in awe—he is without doubt incredable——-
Right on! Seeing is really believing, wouldn’t you say. DBG
Enjoyed your fine work in Miami Vice.
Yeah, please name someone (anyone) on tour who won more money, tournaments, or majors this year?
Didn’t Hale Irwin win more money than Tiger???
Yes, and he reached the $2 million mark first. But he better get it now while he can…just think…at the end of 1997, only 28 more years and Tiger will be eligible for the Senior Tour. Randy — ** LEGAL NOTICE TO ALL BULK E-MAILERS <<< ** ** Pursuant to US Code, Title 7, Chapter 5, ** ** Subchapter II, 227, all nonsolicited ** ** commercial E-mail sent to this address ** ** is subject to a download & archival fee ** ** in the amount of $500US. E-mailing to ** ** this address for commercial purposes ** ** denotes acceptance of these terms. ** ** Violators will be prosecuted to the ** ** maximum extent of the law. **
Tiger is no rookie when it comes to experience. The guy is 21 going on 40 when it comes to his ability, training, experience and upbringing. Tiger had a great year. But, you can’t blame his bad tournaments on inexperience, youth or any other excuse. The guy has a temper and is emontional. But he’s 2 mill richer than I. I predict over the next couple of years Tiger wil settle in and just be another name among other great golfers, i.e. Norman, Davis, Duval, ect ect. Only time will tell if he truly will be the greatest.
Who tinks tiger woods will only ever succeed in the US
If you believe that then you really don’t know much about the game of Professional Golf… Cliff Manley ps i’m australian and really don’t care either way but there’s no denying the talent… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who tinks tiger woods will only ever succeed in the US
If you believe that then you really don’t know much about the game of Professional Golf… Cliff Manley ps i’m australian and really don’t care either way but there’s no denying the talent…
Yeah, please name someone (anyone) on tour who won more money, tournaments, or majors this year? I tink (sic) the cat has got your tongue. Who tinks tiger woods will only ever succeed in the US
– Bob Sweeney NOTE: Remove the ‘x’ from the above address for replies and in the REPLY TO: address in the header Copyright 1997. All rights reserved.
315~325 I think. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – how far is the average drive ?
how far is the average drive ?
Go to caddyshack.org. and leave message for Fluff, maybe he will get back to you.
how far is the average drive ?
Hello there !! I have a Cleveland RTG 588 Sand Wage for sale !! it is in good condition just 1 1/2 month old. It is the steel version not the stainless one. and will rust. It is stiff too. make an offer !! -Yongki-
Auction #9 – GOLF GAMES GALORE 9/30 Update Good evening! Well, there’s not been a lot of activity recently so here’s another update. If the couple of games with no bids go for a few more days without any, they will be withdrawn. Remember, you may view photos of all 15 games at my website…http://www.bright.net/~games. The auction will end on Saturday, October 11, 1997 at 11pm EDT. Finally, here is a list of the games you will find in this auction. Good luck to all! Lyle Rhodebeck Birdie Golf, Break Par Golf Game, Challenge Golf At Pebble Beach, Championship Golf Game, CribbGolf, Fore, Go For The Green, In Pursuit Of Par, Metric Golf, Mister Golf, Official Skins Golf Game, Rainy Day Golf, Round O’ Golf, Tour Golf and Ultimate Golf BIRDIE GOLF (Barris Corp.)(1964) -This is one of the best games in the auction. A very large game, with great graphics, it is complete in a VG+ box with light wear, and has EX components. MIN BID: $15 BREAK PAR GOLF GAME (Built-Rite)(circa 1960) -This neat game from Built-Rite is somewhat hard to find, and has excellent gameplay. It has a box bottom board, and the components are complete and in EX shape. Box is also EX. MIN BID: $10 CHALLENGE GOLF AT PEBBLE BEACH (3M)(1972) -This is the classic 3M golf game, played with a little more strategy than some. It comes in a white bookshelf box, and is complete and EX. The box is in fine shape, with minor wear. CHAMPIONSHIP GOLF GAME (Gardner)(1955) -This is a simple golf game, but one of the older and rarer items in the auction. It is complete, but has a replacement die (in lieu of original) that works just fine. Parts and box are in EX shape. MIN BID: $5 CRIBBGOLF (JKGames)(1992) -Who would have ever dreamed up combining golf with cribbage? Well these folks did, and it works neatly. This large game is in superb shape, EX to NM all the way around. MIN BID: $4 FORE (Artcraft Paper)(1954) -Here is the oldest game in the auction, and it is a good one. Play is fairly easy and rapid, and the game is in nice shape. Box is VG+ with light wear, and the parts are EX, but it is missing 1 of its 4 plastic golf markers. MIN BID: $10 GO FOR THE GREEN ! (Sports Illustrated)(1973) -Here is the classic from SI, and this one is nice. This one comes in a long box that is usually pretty beat up, but this one is EX. And the components are in EX to NM shape. This one requires more strategy than most and is great to play. IN PURSUIT OF PAR (Pursuit Of Par Enterprises)(1986) -This large and heavy game comes with a number of boards, and is in NM condition. It looks like its never been played. A colorful cover enhances this superb golf game. METRIC GOLF (R-Mark Games)(1978) -Here is another odd combination…metrics and golf. This game was made at the height of the attempted conversion of our country over to the metric system, and even games were affected. This one is complete, with a VG box with light wear, and EX components. MIN BID: $6 MISTER GOLF (Bagley)(1967) -This is my favorite game of the auction. A large golf game with great graphics, its fun to play and very hard to find in this condition! Box and contents are in EX shape. MIN BID: $12 OFFICIAL SKINS GOLF GAME (Heartland Marketing)(circa 1985) -Here is a newer golf game that has NEVER BEEN PLAYED! Contents are unused, and the box is in EX+ shape. Great photo art on the box looks like money! RAINY DAY GOLF (Bryad)(1980) -Here is a neat idea for golf…play it on a rainy day! This cool game is in fine shape with an EX box and EX+ complete contents. MIN BID: $6 ROUND O’ GOLF (Proplan, Inc.)(1990) -This newer golf game has great graphics on the cover, and is even better inside! Box is EX+, but the contents are MINT UNUSED! MIN BID: $4 TOUR GOLF (Lavigno/Johnson)(1979) -This might just be the largest game in the auction, and it is also in great shape, with EX+ box and EX+ complete contents! Play is fairly easy, and its somewhat harder to find! MIN BID: $6 ULTIMATE GOLF (Ultimate Golf)(1985) -And finally, this might be the most beautifully made and strategic game in the auction. I have played it and it requires a lot of thought. This superb game is in EX shape on the outside, and NM inside, with the cards still unpunched! No minimum! 1. The auction will go until October 11, but we reserve the right to cut the bidding off early if activity has peaked. 2. On the last day, the auction will end for any item that has no activity during the previous 24 hours until 11pm. However, for any item on which bids have been placed in the last 24 hours, we will continue the auction until the bidding stops. Bidding will be considered ended on those items that receive no more bids within a 24 hour period after the "official" last day of the auction. The "24-hour" method seems to work well for internet auctions because of time delays for many servers as to when they process and send email to their subscribers. 3. No new bidders will be accepted during the last "official" day of the auction. 4. We will use the Going, Going, Gone approach during the course of the auction. Items that go four to five days with no new bids will be considered Going Once. Items that go another two to three days will be considered Going Twice. Finally, if an item goes another two days without a new bid, it will be considered Sold. In summary, a bid that holds up for approximately nine days will be considered sold to that bidder prior to the official end of the auction. This decision is at the discretion of the seller. 5. Shipping will be the buyer’s responsibility, although on multiple purchases, shipping will be less than the single game rate. We ship UPS, unless otherwise specified. 6. We accept check or money order. No COD’s or credit cards. We usually wait five days for checks to clear. We ship items on Mondays every week. 7. We guarantee all items. If you have a problem with the item after receipt, you may mail it back for a refund (less shipping) if done so within seven days of your receiving the item. Thanks again for your participation. Good Luck!!! Lyle Rhodebeck
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I see the names Cink & Damron figuring prominently and ask my erstwhile northern hemisphere golfing commmentators to provide their opinion. Are Cink & Damron the real deal or is there someone else out there who can become a star Please no mention of the walking Nike symbol Cink beat the walking Nike symbol 3 out of 5 times they competed against each other in college and beat him in the U.S. Open. Still Cink doesn’t have the multi million dollar endorsements.
Stewart Cink also doesn’t have 4 PGA TOUR wins in ‘97, including a major. However, he IS a fine player, and will win soon. But of the two you mentioned, Raymond, Robert Damron is definately the real deal. He grew up around Bay Hill in Florida and is an Arnold Palmer protige, having played more than a few rounds with "the king." Nobody, not even "the new sheriff in town," is likely to intimidate Robert. He’s got his head screwed on straight, and he’s having a great year. It’s just a matter of time before he wins his first. Randy
Yes, but Tiger was giving the endorsements before he even played in 1 PGA event as a pro. Tiger’s wins had nothing to do with the endorsements. I can’t think of any other player who was giving multi-million dollar endorsements before they even won a tournament or played in their first tournament as a pro. I am always puzzled by those who seem to resent the good fortunes others have. They seem to think it is unfair that Tiger got those multi million dollar contracts before hitting his first shot as a pro. Fairness has nothing to do with it.
My message contains no resentment. I made a simple statement and a truthful one, no other player has been giving multi-million dollar endorsements before playing in a tournament as a pro or winning their first pro tournament. Those were business decisions made by Nike and Titleist and those companies had no obligation to be fair to anyone but their stockholders. They didn’t give Tiger those millions because they thought he was a wonderful guy. The gave him the money because they were betting that Tiger could help them sell merchandise in a way that no other player could. In the case of Nike, they had $6 billion worth of revenues the previous year but got only 2 percent of that from golf apparel. It doesn’t take a math whiz to figure out that Tiger only has to raise that percentage a few points and he is going to pay for that contract many times over. As is often done in business, Nike took a calculated risk. Had Tiger tanked on the tour, it would have been $40 million write off. As things have turned out, it is probably going to pay off more than they ever hoped it would. My pro shop now has a large Nike section where there was none before. Nike wins. Tiger wins. Why should anyone be troubled by that.
There is no trouble, but a few questions. Phil Mickelson was considered to be the next Nicklaus his senior year in college, no million dollar endorsements. Scott Verplank won his first pro tournament not as a professional, but an amateur in college, a record Tiger hasn’t set, got no million dollar endorsements. I have my opinions why Tiger was giving the endorsements and I think the timing of certain Nike commercials verifies it. I’m not going to discuss it in this group because I know the controversy it will cause. David Golf Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3580/
: : There is no trouble, but a few questions. Phil Mickelson was : considered to be the next Nicklaus his senior year in college, no : million dollar endorsements. Scott Verplank won his first pro : tournament not as a professional, but an amateur in college, a record : Tiger hasn’t set, got no million dollar endorsements. : I don’t know about Verplank, but Mickelson got several large endorsement deals coming out of college. Definitely in the millions although not in Tiger’s neighborhood. rich
Yes, but Tiger was giving the endorsements before he even played in 1 PGA event as a pro. Tiger’s wins had nothing to do with the endorsements. I can’t think of any other player who was giving multi-million dollar endorsements before they even won a tournament or played in their first tournament as a pro.
I am always puzzled by those who seem to resent the good fortunes others have. They seem to think it is unfair that Tiger got those multi million dollar contracts before hitting his first shot as a pro. Fairness has nothing to do with it. Those were business decisions made by Nike and Titleist and those companies had no obligation to be fair to anyone but their stockholders. They didn’t give Tiger those millions because they thought he was a wonderful guy. The gave him the money because they were betting that Tiger could help them sell merchandise in a way that no other player could. In the case of Nike, they had $6 billion worth of revenues the previous year but got only 2 percent of that from golf apparel. It doesn’t take a math whiz to figure out that Tiger only has to raise that percentage a few points and he is going to pay for that contract many times over. As is often done in business, Nike took a calculated risk. Had Tiger tanked on the tour, it would have been $40 million write off. As things have turned out, it is probably going to pay off more than they ever hoped it would. My pro shop now has a large Nike section where there was none before. Nike wins. Tiger wins. Why should anyone be troubled by that. John
Yes, but Tiger was giving the endorsements before he even played in 1 PGA event as a pro. Tiger’s wins had nothing to do with the endorsements. I can’t think of any other player who was giving multi-million dollar endorsements before they even won a tournament or played in their first tournament as a pro.
Doesn’t that make the bloke at Nike rather astute? Cheers, Dave from the UK
Are Cink & Damron the real deal or is there someone else out there who can become a star (as opposed to a superstar). Please no mention of the walking Nike symbol with no mates on tour. We all know how good he already is.
Please let it be known that we over here think Lee Westwood might *just* be the real thing. Cheers, Dave from the UK
Please let it be known that we over here think Lee Westwood might *just* be the real thing. Cheers, Dave from the UK
Agreed. I have got to see a lot of the European Tour on the Golf Channel this year and as Johnny Miller would say, Lee Westwood is a gun. John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, but remember, Woods was giving the Titleist and Nike endorsements before he even stepped foot on the course as a tour player. His wins had nothing to do with it. I believe that his three consecutive US Amateur wins had something to do with it. Nike was betting that he *would* win, and often. This is similar to investing in a startup company with no demonstrated profit — it’s a gamble, but it’s a legitimate gamble that can be rewarded handsomely. With Tiger’s five wins so far, it appears to have been a good bet for Nike, and (so far) a better one than if they had bet on Cink. I find it interesting that you ignore Tiger’s amateur wins when mentioning Tiger’s contract (above), but cite Cink’s amateur record against Tiger when implying that Cink should have gotten more endorsements (below).
I didn’t ignore his amateur wins. I stated he received the endorsements before he turned pro and was trying to imply his 5 tour wins after that has nothing to do with it, Go back and re-read it, David Golf Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3580/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cink is a hell of a player … but he has not won on tour, and Mr. Woods has won 5 times. Yes, but remember, Woods was giving the Titleist and Nike endorsements before he even stepped foot on the course as a tour player. His wins had nothing to do with it. Cink beat the walking Nike symbol 3 out of 5 times they competed against each other in college and beat him in the U.S. Open. Still Cink doesn’t have the multi million dollar endorsements. David Golf Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3580/
He had no won on the Pro Tour, but had done extremely well as an amateur. And, of course, just the chance that he could continue his success, along with his status as a minority, was enough to make the major sponsors foam at the mouth.
Cink is a hell of a player … but he has not won on tour, and Mr. Woods has won 5 times. Yes, but remember, Woods was giving the Titleist and Nike endorsements before he even stepped foot on the course as a tour player. His wins had nothing to do with it.
I believe that his three consecutive US Amateur wins had something to do with it. Nike was betting that he *would* win, and often. This is similar to investing in a startup company with no demonstrated profit — it’s a gamble, but it’s a legitimate gamble that can be rewarded handsomely. With Tiger’s five wins so far, it appears to have been a good bet for Nike, and (so far) a better one than if they had bet on Cink. I find it interesting that you ignore Tiger’s amateur wins when mentioning Tiger’s contract (above), but cite Cink’s amateur record against Tiger when implying that Cink should have gotten more endorsements (below). Cink beat the walking Nike symbol 3 out of 5 times they competed against each other in college and beat him in the U.S. Open. Still Cink doesn’t have the multi million dollar endorsements.
– Gregory Tucker-Kellogg Department of Biological Chemistry and Molecular Pharmacology Harvard Medical School, Boston MA 02115 "Mojo Dobro" Finger for PGP info
Cink is a hell of a player … but he has not won on tour, and Mr. Woods has won 5 times.
Yes, but remember, Woods was giving the Titleist and Nike endorsements before he even stepped foot on the course as a tour player. His wins had nothing to do with it. Cink beat the walking Nike symbol 3 out of 5 times they competed against each other in college and beat him in the U.S. Open. Still Cink doesn’t have the multi million dollar endorsements.
David Golf Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3580/
Cink beat the walking Nike symbol 3 out of 5 times they competed against each other in college and beat him in the U.S. Open. Still Cink doesn’t have the multi million dollar endorsements. David<<< Cink doesn’t have multi-million dollar endorsment deals because he can’t sell merchandise the way Tiger can. Nike and Titleist aren’t giving Tiger all that money because they think he is a great guy. If Cink ever does start winning golf tournaments anywhere near as often as Tiger has, I’m sure he will get plenty of endorsement oppurtunities.
Yes, but Tiger was giving the endorsements before he even played in 1 PGA event as a pro. Tiger’s wins had nothing to do with the endorsements. I can’t think of any other player who was giving multi-million dollar endorsements before they even won a tournament or played in their first tournament as a pro. David Golf Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3580/
Comments please. Over the last few years we’ve seen the emergence of Mickelson, Duval & Appleby. Who is this years’ emerging talent who may just be able to clock up 10+ wins on the US Tour in their time. I see the names Cink & Damron figuring prominently and ask my erstwhile northern hemisphere golfing commmentators to provide their opinion. Are Cink & Damron the real deal or is there someone else out there who can become a star (as opposed to a superstar). Please no mention of the walking Nike symbol with no mates on tour. We all know how good he already is.
Cink beat the walking Nike symbol 3 out of 5 times they competed against each other in college and beat him in the U.S. Open. Still Cink doesn’t have the multi million dollar endorsements. David Golf Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3580/
I would put Justin Leonard in there. I look for a Tom Kite type career. 10 – 20 victories, a load of money, some Ryder/President Cups, and a major (perhaps as many as 3 – 5). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Comments please. Over the last few years we’ve seen the emergence of Mickelson, Duval & Appleby. Who is this years’ emerging talent who may just be able to clock up 10+ wins on the US Tour in their time. I see the names Cink & Damron figuring prominently and ask my erstwhile northern hemisphere golfing commmentators to provide their opinion. Are Cink & Damron the real deal or is there someone else out there who can become a star (as opposed to a superstar). Please no mention of the walking Nike symbol with no mates on tour. We all know how good he already is. Raymond Poole Bureau of Meteorology Training Centre Melbourne, Australia ph (+61 3 96694117) fax (+61 3 96694366) Continuous Improvement through Teams and Individuals
Go to other people’s funerals; otherwise they might not come to yours. Yogi Berra
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Comments please. Over the last few years we’ve seen the emergence of Mickelson, Duval & Appleby. Who is this years’ emerging talent who may just be able to clock up 10+ wins on the US Tour in their time. I see the names Cink & Damron figuring prominently and ask my erstwhile northern hemisphere golfing commmentators to provide their opinion. (clip) Cink beat the walking Nike symbol 3 out of 5 times they competed against each other in college and beat him in the U.S. Open. Still Cink doesn’t have the multi million dollar endorsements. David Golf Homepage
Tommy Tolles and Paul Stankowski are both good, and most important for a long career, they are both quite consistent. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3580/
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Tommy Tolles and Paul Stankowski are both good, and most important for a long career, they are both quite consistent.
I followed Tommy Tolles for several holes when he was down here at English Turn. He killed the ball when he teed off. Besides being consistent he is loooong. David Golf Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3580/
Cink beat the walking Nike symbol 3 out of 5 times they competed
against each other in college and beat him in the U.S. Open. Still Cink doesn’t have the multi million dollar endorsements. David<<< Cink doesn’t have multi-million dollar endorsment deals because he can’t sell merchandise the way Tiger can. Nike and Titleist aren’t giving Tiger all that money because they think he is a great guy. If Cink ever does start winning golf tournaments anywhere near as often as Tiger has, I’m sure he will get plenty of endorsement oppurtunities. John
Cink is a hell of a player … but he has not won on tour, and Mr. Woods has won 5 times. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cink beat the walking Nike symbol 3 out of 5 times they competed against each other in college and beat him in the U.S. Open. Still Cink doesn’t have the multi million dollar endorsements. David Golf Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3580/
Comments please. Over the last few years we’ve seen the emergence of Mickelson, Duval & Appleby. Who is this years’ emerging talent who may just be able to clock up 10+ wins on the US Tour in their time. I see the names Cink & Damron figuring prominently and ask my erstwhile northern hemisphere golfing commmentators to provide their opinion. Are Cink & Damron the real deal or is there someone else out there who can become a star (as opposed to a superstar). Please no mention of the walking Nike symbol with no mates on tour. We all know how good he already is. Raymond Poole Bureau of Meteorology Training Centre Melbourne, Australia ph (+61 3 96694117) fax (+61 3 96694366) Continuous Improvement through Teams and Individuals