Question:
Regarding the leg straightening, its amazimg how many people simply comment on it, and don’t try it. So far, for me, it may be that I have been increasing the amount of bend in my right knee duuring my swing, and the thought of straightening it is helping prevent me from hitting a pull hook. In any event, with my so far brief experiment, it is not really possible to fully straighten the right leg, but the idea of a more straight right leg and a pivot axis of the left leg is eliminating the pull hook and I think helping me keep my spine axis. I am also less concious of a tendancy to reverse pivot, as I must keep the right side of my butt in (it is impossible for it to go out) during my backswing. Rob — http://www.mc.edu/~rhamilto
Response:
JoePete wrote This may not be the exact year, but I believe Hogan’s Five Lesson originally appeared in the 1956 Sports Illustrated
That could very well be. I have a hardcover copy of the first reprint (yeah, reprint 
) of the book in the UK. It is dated December, 1957. Well annotated now, with lots of highlighting and stick-it tabs on various pages. You go through Ledbetter now it’s quite surprising how little things have really changed since then. Cosmetically some, fundamentally, very little. — Eddie Haynes-Smart Cape Town, South Africa
Response:
The x factor is not very relevant for an arms type of swing, as say per Moe Norman. Also, all of these analyses miss a major componet, which I call the "Y" factor. A golfer with a small X factor but a large Y factor will achieve more clubhead velocity than a golfer with a large X factor, but a small Y factor. What is the Y factor? Y do you want to know? OK, anyway, here’s a hint: angles don’t make a golf swing, a good golf swing makes good angles, to paraphrase Sam Snead. Of course, Snead nearly destroyed his X factor, every time. Oh well, at least he had the Y of it. David A.
Response:
What is the Y factor? Y do you want to know?
It’s the shape created by the left and right arm and the clubshaft. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
You have to understand what The Golfing Machine is before you can compare it to other concepts. That’s why I asked you. I’m not putting down The Golfing Machine. In a similar vein, if you are going to criticize McLean, you should first read his book.
I didn’t criticize McLean, myself and others disagree with some of his teachings and I know people who hurt their back trying to get his X-Factor. It doesn’t teach you one way to swing a club. It teaches there is 24 components in every swing and each component has 3-15 variations each. With this many component variations there is thousands of possible ways to swing a club. I can believe that. I have probably swung half those ways, mostly the bad ones. But are you saying TGM doesn’t recommend certain ways over others? Specifically, does it recommend coiling or not?
The Golfing Machine believes in adopting component variations that fits the player, and using the variations you can work around his or her limitations and handicaps. To answer your second question, yes TGM recommends coiling so you can uncoil and develop radial acceleration in the down stroke. Jim never claimed to have invented a new way of swinging a golf club. What he reported was that from his observations of many pro golfers, both live and on video or film, and from experiments done using special equipment to measure specifically shoulder and hip turn on many current pros, that the ones who achieved the greatest delta between hip turn and shoulder turn during the swing hit the ball farther. Note that this is "during the swing", and not just during the backswing.
This is exactly what I have been trying to say since the start of this thread, but you haven’t been listening. Hips action leads and powers the downstroke shoulder turn, I even emphasize this on my web page. It is the separation between the hips and shoulders that builds the tension that’s responsible for the shoulder acceleration and this separation or delta doesn’t have to happen in the backstroke, it can happen in the downstroke. It is why I said golfers try to get too much differential in the backstroke trying to get this tension and it leads to back problems, thus they should just go ahead and turn the hips more and get the differential in the down stroke. The pro’s with the biggest delta he measured were, not surprisingly, John Daly and Tiger Woods. Tiger, especially, is a good case in point. Tiger has a relatively short back swing, but achieves a huge delta between his hips and shoulders during his swing.
No argument here. There were many pros who had big shoulder turns but were shorter hitters. These pros also had big hip turns. From the data collected in his experiments, shoulder turn did not correlate nearly as well to distance as did the delta between the hips & shoulder.
I agree with this. Now you can disagree with Jim all you want philosophically, but he has experimental data to back his conclusions. If you hold a contrary opinion, you should have some data of your own to point to. See his book for details on his experiments.
I agree with him about the delta, but not if he says you should restrict hip turn and try for maximum shoulder turn. Lack of a hip turn is what causes many players to sway. You could have used a little more back stroke hip turn to get the shoulders fully back then let the natural tension as in the delayed hip action give you the same power. Point is, if you turn the hips 20 degrees but can only turn the shoulders 80 why not turn the hips 25 degrees to get the shoulders 90 and have the same tension to use between the hips and shoulders? I don’t think Jim would disagree with this, and, in fact, I believe he actually said this in his book. If you look at your example, in the first case the delta is 60 degrees, and in the second it is 65 degrees. Of course you should do it! I think the problem here is that you have a misunderstanding of what Jim is teaching. Read his book.
Perhaps I will. At the same time, if you improve your back flexibility to get a larger delta with the same tension, wouldn’t you improve? Jim’s data says you would.
If it’s within reason, some people have a way of ever doing things. Come on. Just give me YOUR favorite, I gave you MINE. I really would like to know if there is something else worth looking at. Don’t be so defensive.
Its’s a Golfing Machine video that’s not available or for sale. It shows how the swing works from the shortest chip to the longest drive. It doesn’t emphasize one particular point or points as being the secret key or magic to the swing, it just how the swing works as a whole from head to foot and the physics involved. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
This may not be the exact year, but I believe Hogan’s Five Lesson originally appeared in the 1956 Sports Illustrated.
According to Sampson’s book "Hogan", it was 1957, close enough. Hogan retired from tournament golf in 1955. So the swing that Hogan won all those tournaments with WAS documented in his book. I’m still not convinced that Hogan ever locked out (completely straightened, i.e. lost the flex in his knee) his right leg on the back swing. Someone will have to show me a picture of it, or refer me to one. I have plenty of photos showing him with a flexed knee in his backswing. As much as Hogan’s swing has been analyzed (by literally MILLIONS of people), you’d have thought this would have been well discussed if true… I don’t have a tape of the Hogan & Snead match, but next time it comes on the Golf Channel, I’ll check it out. If someone has the video and has a vid-cap that either shows or disproves it, maybe they can put it on a web page and post a link? – Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1953 was Hogan’s year where he won the three majors (probably would have swept all four if had made it back from the British Open in time for the PGA) I believe 1948 was his lowest scoring average year (and still second lowest in tour history). In ‘48 was the crash. Obviously his swing change slightly after that. As to the straigtening of the right leg etc. I have some old photos of Hogan. I wonder if the straightening may only seem to be there because of the tailoring of his pants. I think there needs to be a distinction too between straightening the leg (as in losing the flex in the knee) and bowing it (as in letting the leg sway back from the target). I would say the latter is definitely not from Hogan’s swing or generally any decent swing. As to straightening the leg on the backswing .. I’m not sure this is a major factor either way. It strikes me as adding an extra hitch in your swing, but so long as you flex your leg again on the downswing .. you should return to the same position at impact. Perhaps this observation relates to the amount a player drives his hips toward the target on the downswing, like a pitcher straightens his leg slightly as he gets ready to push off from the mound? Interesting. I’ve never heard this before, anywhere. Is there a teaching pro that supports this, and has published something on it? Can you point me to a book or article? Or is this your own analysis of Hogan’s swing? All the photos I have of Hogan show him with his right knee flexed in his backswing. The leg may appear to be "straight" when viewed face-on, but if you look closely, (or along the target line) you will see that the knee is flexed (but not bowed out to the side). I don’t have the exact date here, but Hogan’s book was written after he had won at least the bulk of his tournaments, including majors. So his book described the swing he used to win majors with. That’s good enough for me (although I don’t adopt all of Hogan’s ideas for my swing – I’m not fighting a persistant hook). As he got older, his swing obviously changed, as everyone does, and not for the better. I assume you are referring to the Shell Wonderful World of Golf match between Hogan & Snead? What was the date of that match? How many tournaments was Ben winning when it was filmed? If this is a commonly held view, I apologize for my ignorance, but like I said, I’ve read quite a bit and never heard of it. (Is this the same Scott who is an instructor in Germany, or someone else?) Scott wrote Ben Hogan straighten his right leg (used it like a buttress) I’m not sure I agree with this comment about Hogan straightening his right leg, unless you’re quoting from something other than Hogan’s "The Modern Fundamentals Of Golf", in which case I’d like to know your source. Watch his swing in the Hogan vs. Snead match. Hogan perfected his swing significantly from the time he penned his book to the time he took on Snead. I quote from his book: "As regards the right leg, it should maintain the same position it had at address, the same angle in relation to the ground, throughout the backswing. …. When you have a stable right leg and the right knee remains pointed in a bit, it prevents the leg from sagging and swaying out to the right and carrying the body along with it." Like I said, watch the video. There are a number of things that don’t apply from the book to his swing in the video. and pivoted behind the left leg on the backswing. I don’t understand what you mean by this. I understand Hogan to have recommended that there should be a build up of tension between shoulders and hips by NOT allowing the hips to turn to soon. How does this square with what you are saying? Tension is B.S. The muscles do NOT act like rubber bands and I’m not going to get into why as it is more than I wish to describe with Hogan’s swing. Power comes from the law of the flail, not some build up of tension between the torso and lower body. His right leg straightens in the back swing and the left leg bends. The right leg actually pushes his right hip behind him, pivoting around the left hip attachment. You can actually preset your stance this way (I do). Brace your right leg away from your body and set it straight. Bend your left leg. On the backswing push your right hip behind you by pushing with the right foot. This will pivot your right hip behind you. If done correctly, you’ll feel a freedom of motion not bound by this counter-productive "tension" and your leg action will be automatic. (i.e. you don’t have to think about sliding the hips, turning the hips, etc to get the weight to transfer) The feeling is that you are ahead of the ball and pulling the club through the ball. A very powerful position and feeling and your legs will suppport your pulling motion automatically. You’ll be using the club the way it was designed to be used. Traditional instruction says turn the hips around the spine. There the left hip moves forward and the right hip moves back. This stay behind the ball stuff, but transfer the weight with the hips is one of the reasons that so many golfers cast (push) the clubhead at the ball. After all, how can you launch something if you are behind it? You have to throw or push the club into it. There is no other way. The only logical way to compress a golf ball is to get ahead of the ball and stay there. Pull the club into the ball. Have fun. Scott
Response:
This may not be the exact year, but I believe Hogan’s Five Lesson originally appeared in the 1956 Sports Illustrated. 1953 was Hogan’s year where he won the three majors (probably would have swept all four if had made it back from the British Open in time for the PGA) I believe 1948 was his lowest scoring average year (and still second lowest in tour history). In ‘48 was the crash. Obviously his swing change slightly after that. As to the straigtening of the right leg etc. I have some old photos of Hogan. I wonder if the straightening may only seem to be there because of the tailoring of his pants. I think there needs to be a distinction too between straightening the leg (as in losing the flex in the knee) and bowing it (as in letting the leg sway back from the target). I would say the latter is definitely not from Hogan’s swing or generally any decent swing. As to straightening the leg on the backswing .. I’m not sure this is a major factor either way. It strikes me as adding an extra hitch in your swing, but so long as you flex your leg again on the downswing .. you should return to the same position at impact. Perhaps this observation relates to the amount a player drives his hips toward the target on the downswing, like a pitcher straightens his leg slightly as he gets ready to push off from the mound? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interesting. I’ve never heard this before, anywhere. Is there a teaching pro that supports this, and has published something on it? Can you point me to a book or article? Or is this your own analysis of Hogan’s swing? All the photos I have of Hogan show him with his right knee flexed in his backswing. The leg may appear to be "straight" when viewed face-on, but if you look closely, (or along the target line) you will see that the knee is flexed (but not bowed out to the side). I don’t have the exact date here, but Hogan’s book was written after he had won at least the bulk of his tournaments, including majors. So his book described the swing he used to win majors with. That’s good enough for me (although I don’t adopt all of Hogan’s ideas for my swing – I’m not fighting a persistant hook). As he got older, his swing obviously changed, as everyone does, and not for the better. I assume you are referring to the Shell Wonderful World of Golf match between Hogan & Snead? What was the date of that match? How many tournaments was Ben winning when it was filmed? If this is a commonly held view, I apologize for my ignorance, but like I said, I’ve read quite a bit and never heard of it. (Is this the same Scott who is an instructor in Germany, or someone else?) Scott wrote Ben Hogan straighten his right leg (used it like a buttress) I’m not sure I agree with this comment about Hogan straightening his right leg, unless you’re quoting from something other than Hogan’s "The Modern Fundamentals Of Golf", in which case I’d like to know your source. Watch his swing in the Hogan vs. Snead match. Hogan perfected his swing significantly from the time he penned his book to the time he took on Snead. I quote from his book: "As regards the right leg, it should maintain the same position it had at address, the same angle in relation to the ground, throughout the backswing. …. When you have a stable right leg and the right knee remains pointed in a bit, it prevents the leg from sagging and swaying out to the right and carrying the body along with it." Like I said, watch the video. There are a number of things that don’t apply from the book to his swing in the video. and pivoted behind the left leg on the backswing. I don’t understand what you mean by this. I understand Hogan to have recommended that there should be a build up of tension between shoulders and hips by NOT allowing the hips to turn to soon. How does this square with what you are saying? Tension is B.S. The muscles do NOT act like rubber bands and I’m not going to get into why as it is more than I wish to describe with Hogan’s swing. Power comes from the law of the flail, not some build up of tension between the torso and lower body. His right leg straightens in the back swing and the left leg bends. The right leg actually pushes his right hip behind him, pivoting around the left hip attachment. You can actually preset your stance this way (I do). Brace your right leg away from your body and set it straight. Bend your left leg. On the backswing push your right hip behind you by pushing with the right foot. This will pivot your right hip behind you. If done correctly, you’ll feel a freedom of motion not bound by this counter-productive "tension" and your leg action will be automatic. (i.e. you don’t have to think about sliding the hips, turning the hips, etc to get the weight to transfer) The feeling is that you are ahead of the ball and pulling the club through the ball. A very powerful position and feeling and your legs will suppport your pulling motion automatically. You’ll be using the club the way it was designed to be used. Traditional instruction says turn the hips around the spine. There the left hip moves forward and the right hip moves back. This stay behind the ball stuff, but transfer the weight with the hips is one of the reasons that so many golfers cast (push) the clubhead at the ball. After all, how can you launch something if you are behind it? You have to throw or push the club into it. There is no other way. The only logical way to compress a golf ball is to get ahead of the ball and stay there. Pull the club into the ball. Have fun. Scott
Response:
If you do, you will notice that Jim stresses that the flex in the right knee must be maintained, and that straightening the right leg is a "death move", as is letting the weight roll over to the outside of the right foot. You will also notice that Jim advocates, for the advanced player, that the lower body lead the down swing, so I don’t see that Jim is teaching much different than the Golfing Machine on these issues. Not only is he teaching something not much different from The Golfing Machine, but any decent concept out there.
So just to clarify, what you are saying is that, in these respects (not straightening the right leg, not letting the weight roll over to the outside, etc.) what Jim is teaching is the same as every decent concept. So we agree, at least on this. I guess the key difference is that the Golfing Machine doesn’t recomend coiling? Correct me if I got that wrong from your post. You have to understand what The Golfing Machine is before you can compare it to other concepts.
That’s why I asked you. I’m not putting down The Golfing Machine. In a similar vein, if you are going to criticize McLean, you should first read his book. It doesn’t teach you one way to swing a club. It teaches there is 24 components in every swing and each component has 3-15 variations each. With this many component variations there is thousands of possible ways to swing a club.
I can believe that. I have probably swung half those ways, mostly the bad ones. But are you saying TGM doesn’t recommend certain ways over others? Specifically, does it recommend coiling or not? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With that said, let me tell you how TGM relates to these areas: The pivot has 4 variations: 1) standard – a free turn in both directions. 2) short – a free turn back with a restricted follow through. 3) delayed – a restricted turn back and free follow through. 4) zero – no turn in either direction, just the arms swing. Hip action is the work the hips do in moving the shoulders and also has 4 variations: 1) standard – hip action pulls the shoulders in both directions. 2) delayed – shoulders lead the back turn, hips take over and lead the down stroke turn. 3) short – hips lead the back turn, shoulders take over and lead the down stroke turn. 4) zero – no hip action at all. So what does TGM teach? Depends what you’re looking for. Is McLeans’s concept in there? You bet it is: A free turn in both directions (standard pivot) with the shoulders leading the way back and the hips leading the down stroke (delayed hip action). As a side note, using delayed hip action prevents over swinging. Turning the hips a determined amount will stop the shoulder turn at a preselected place, tighten the left side tension, and set the stage for the hips to initiate the down stroke shoulder acceleration. What McLean is teaching isn’t anything new, it’s exactly what I described above and has been around since the 60’s or perhaps earlier.
At least the 50’s or 40’s. McLean freely acknowledges that he studied Hogan, Nelson, and Snead’s swings extensively, among many others. Most people point to Byron Nelson as inventing the "modern" (at that time) swing which was developed in response to the introduction of steel shafts. Before that, swings were much looser. Jim never claimed to have invented a new way of swinging a golf club. What he reported was that from his observations of many pro golfers, both live and on video or film, and from experiments done using special equipment to measure specifically shoulder and hip turn on many current pros, that the ones who achieved the greatest delta between hip turn and shoulder turn during the swing hit the ball farther. Note that this is "during the swing", and not just during the backswing. The pro’s with the biggest delta he measured were, not surprisingly, John Daly and Tiger Woods. Tiger, especially, is a good case in point. Tiger has a relatively short back swing, but achieves a huge delta between his hips and shoulders during his swing. There were many pros who had big shoulder turns but were shorter hitters. These pros also had big hip turns. From the data collected in his experiments, shoulder turn did not correlate nearly as well to distance as did the delta between the hips & shoulder. Now you can disagree with Jim all you want philosophically, but he has experimental data to back his conclusions. If you hold a contrary opinion, you should have some data of your own to point to. See his book for details on his experiments. The main message I got from X-factor, was that I needed to improve the flexibility of my back. Through stretching, I have, and I think my distance has improved as a result when I manage to get a full shoulder turn. You could have used a little more back stroke hip turn to get the shoulders fully back then let the natural tension as in the delayed hip action give you the same power. Point is, if you turn the hips 20 degrees but can only turn the shoulders 80 why not turn the hips 25 degrees to get the shoulders 90 and have the same tension to use between the hips and shoulders?
I don’t think Jim would disagree with this, and, in fact, I believe he actually said this in his book. If you look at your example, in the first case the delta is 60 degrees, and in the second it is 65 degrees. Of course you should do it! I think the problem here is that you have a misunderstanding of what Jim is teaching. Read his book. At the same time, if you improve your back flexibility to get a larger delta with the same tension, wouldn’t you improve? Jim’s data says you would. Like I said before, I’m not a McLean zealot, even though I may sound like one. (I think he should have spent as much time and detail on rhythm as he did on swing positions.) However, I think he offers a LOT of bang for the buck, and frankly, I’m stumped trying to come up with a better recommendation for a video on the full swing. Perhaps you have one? There is many, but it’s matter of personal taste.
Come on. Just give me YOUR favorite, I gave you MINE. I really would like to know if there is something else worth looking at. Don’t be so defensive. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
Interesting. I’ve never heard this before, anywhere. Is there a teaching pro that supports this, and has published something on it? Can you point me to a book or article? Or is this your own analysis of Hogan’s swing? All the photos I have of Hogan show him with his right knee flexed in his backswing. The leg may appear to be "straight" when viewed face-on, but if you look closely, (or along the target line) you will see that the knee is flexed (but not bowed out to the side).
Unfortunately, I can’t take credit for my Hogan swing observations. I’ve been corresponding for the past 1 1/2 years with a gentleman from Australia named Gerry Hogan. He did a tape called "The Challenge" and is the only tape I’ve reviewed so far that had a favorable review. Gerry has been investigating Hogan’s swing for at least 15 years. He’s a best selling author and has patents on specialized graphite shafts. A brilliant mind in my opinion. Of course, Gerry made me puzzle out every piece for myself and I’m still at it. We’ve become good mates and I treasure his golf knowledge above anything I’ve come across. He is a master of observation, human performance/behavior, and this grand dream called life. I am proud to call him a mentor and a friend. I don’t have the exact date here, but Hogan’s book was written after he had won at least the bulk of his tournaments, including majors. So his book described the swing he used to win majors with. That’s good enough for me (although I don’t adopt all of Hogan’s ideas for my swing – I’m not fighting a persistant hook). As he got older, his swing obviously changed, as everyone does, and not for the better. I assume you are referring to the Shell Wonderful World of Golf match between Hogan & Snead? What was the date of that match? How many tournaments was Ben winning when it was filmed?
Yes, the Hogan vs. Snead match is the one I was refering to. I believe both Hogan and Snead were near or in their mid-50’s. Hogan perfected his swing quite a bit after his book was written. I believe Hogan was pretty much out of competitive golf by this time because of his putting problems. I have little doubt, however, that Hogan could have won on tour again if a substitute putter could have been employed. ;) If this is a commonly held view, I apologize for my ignorance, but like I said, I’ve read quite a bit and never heard of it.
No need to apologize. There is not way you could have heard it before since it is all from a single source. (Is this the same Scott who is an instructor in Germany, or someone else?)
No, I’m not that Scott. That is Scottb I believe. I’m in Madison, WI. Though I’ve been to Germany. It was cold and grey, but the women were warm. So was some of the beer. ;) Scott
Response:
David, have you actually read McLean’s "Eight-Step Swing", and "X-Factor Swing" books, and seen the videos by the same name? Or are these second-hand impressions?
Yes, I have seen the ‘X-Factor’ video. It was a couple of years ago and I can only say what I remember to the best of my recollection. If you do, you will notice that Jim stresses that the flex in the right knee must be maintained, and that straightening the right leg is a "death move", as is letting the weight roll over to the outside of the right foot. You will also notice that Jim advocates, for the advanced player, that the lower body lead the down swing, so I don’t see that Jim is teaching much different than the Golfing Machine on these issues.
Not only is he teaching something not much different from The Golfing Machine, but any decent concept out there. I guess the key difference is that the Golfing Machine doesn’t recomend coiling? Correct me if I got that wrong from your post.
You have to understand what The Golfing Machine is before you can compare it to other concepts. It doesn’t teach you one way to swing a club. It teaches there is 24 components in every swing and each component has 3-15 variations each. With this many component variations there is thousands of possible ways to swing a club. With that said, let me tell you how TGM relates to these areas: The pivot has 4 variations: 1) standard – a free turn in both directions. 2) short – a free turn back with a restricted follow through. 3) delayed – a restricted turn back and free follow through. 4) zero – no turn in either direction, just the arms swing. Hip action is the work the hips do in moving the shoulders and also has 4 variations: 1) standard – hip action pulls the shoulders in both directions. 2) delayed – shoulders lead the back turn, hips take over and lead the down stroke turn. 3) short – hips lead the back turn, shoulders take over and lead the down stroke turn. 4) zero – no hip action at all. So what does TGM teach? Depends what you’re looking for. Is McLeans’s concept in there? You bet it is: A free turn in both directions (standard pivot) with the shoulders leading the way back and the hips leading the down stroke (delayed hip action). As a side note, using delayed hip action prevents over swinging. Turning the hips a determined amount will stop the shoulder turn at a preselected place, tighten the left side tension, and set the stage for the hips to initiate the down stroke shoulder acceleration. What McLean is teaching isn’t anything new, it’s exactly what I described above and has been around since the 60’s or perhaps earlier. The main message I got from X-factor, was that I needed to improve the flexibility of my back. Through stretching, I have, and I think my distance has improved as a result when I manage to get a full shoulder turn.
You could have used a little more back stroke hip turn to get the shoulders fully back then let the natural tension as in the delayed hip action give you the same power. Point is, if you turn the hips 20 degrees but can only turn the shoulders 80 why not turn the hips 25 degrees to get the shoulders 90 and have the same tension to use between the hips and shoulders? Like I said before, I’m not a McLean zealot, even though I may sound like one. (I think he should have spent as much time and detail on rhythm as he did on swing positions.) However, I think he offers a LOT of bang for the buck, and frankly, I’m stumped trying to come up with a better recommendation for a video on the full swing. Perhaps you have one?
There is many, but it’s matter of personal taste. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
Interesting. I’ve never heard this before, anywhere. Is there a teaching pro that supports this, and has published something on it? Can you point me to a book or article? Or is this your own analysis of Hogan’s swing? All the photos I have of Hogan show him with his right knee flexed in his backswing. The leg may appear to be "straight" when viewed face-on, but if you look closely, (or along the target line) you will see that the knee is flexed (but not bowed out to the side). I don’t have the exact date here, but Hogan’s book was written after he had won at least the bulk of his tournaments, including majors. So his book described the swing he used to win majors with. That’s good enough for me (although I don’t adopt all of Hogan’s ideas for my swing – I’m not fighting a persistant hook). As he got older, his swing obviously changed, as everyone does, and not for the better. I assume you are referring to the Shell Wonderful World of Golf match between Hogan & Snead? What was the date of that match? How many tournaments was Ben winning when it was filmed? If this is a commonly held view, I apologize for my ignorance, but like I said, I’ve read quite a bit and never heard of it. (Is this the same Scott who is an instructor in Germany, or someone else?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scott wrote Ben Hogan straighten his right leg (used it like a buttress) I’m not sure I agree with this comment about Hogan straightening his right leg, unless you’re quoting from something other than Hogan’s "The Modern Fundamentals Of Golf", in which case I’d like to know your source. Watch his swing in the Hogan vs. Snead match. Hogan perfected his swing significantly from the time he penned his book to the time he took on Snead. I quote from his book: "As regards the right leg, it should maintain the same position it had at address, the same angle in relation to the ground, throughout the backswing. …. When you have a stable right leg and the right knee remains pointed in a bit, it prevents the leg from sagging and swaying out to the right and carrying the body along with it." Like I said, watch the video. There are a number of things that don’t apply from the book to his swing in the video. and pivoted behind the left leg on the backswing. I don’t understand what you mean by this. I understand Hogan to have recommended that there should be a build up of tension between shoulders and hips by NOT allowing the hips to turn to soon. How does this square with what you are saying? Tension is B.S. The muscles do NOT act like rubber bands and I’m not going to get into why as it is more than I wish to describe with Hogan’s swing. Power comes from the law of the flail, not some build up of tension between the torso and lower body. His right leg straightens in the back swing and the left leg bends. The right leg actually pushes his right hip behind him, pivoting around the left hip attachment. You can actually preset your stance this way (I do). Brace your right leg away from your body and set it straight. Bend your left leg. On the backswing push your right hip behind you by pushing with the right foot. This will pivot your right hip behind you. If done correctly, you’ll feel a freedom of motion not bound by this counter-productive "tension" and your leg action will be automatic. (i.e. you don’t have to think about sliding the hips, turning the hips, etc to get the weight to transfer) The feeling is that you are ahead of the ball and pulling the club through the ball. A very powerful position and feeling and your legs will suppport your pulling motion automatically. You’ll be using the club the way it was designed to be used. Traditional instruction says turn the hips around the spine. There the left hip moves forward and the right hip moves back. This stay behind the ball stuff, but transfer the weight with the hips is one of the reasons that so many golfers cast (push) the clubhead at the ball. After all, how can you launch something if you are behind it? You have to throw or push the club into it. There is no other way. The only logical way to compress a golf ball is to get ahead of the ball and stay there. Pull the club into the ball. Have fun. Scott
Response:
Scott wrote Ben Hogan straighten his right leg (used it like a buttress) I’m not sure I agree with this comment about Hogan straightening his right leg, unless you’re quoting from something other than Hogan’s "The Modern Fundamentals Of Golf", in which case I’d like to know your source.
Watch his swing in the Hogan vs. Snead match. Hogan perfected his swing significantly from the time he penned his book to the time he took on Snead. I quote from his book: "As regards the right leg, it should maintain the same position it had at address, the same angle in relation to the ground, throughout the backswing. …. When you have a stable right leg and the right knee remains pointed in a bit, it prevents the leg from sagging and swaying out to the right and carrying the body along with it."
Like I said, watch the video. There are a number of things that don’t apply from the book to his swing in the video. and pivoted behind the left leg on the backswing. I don’t understand what you mean by this. I understand Hogan to have recommended that there should be a build up of tension between shoulders and hips by NOT allowing the hips to turn to soon. How does this square with what you are saying?
Tension is B.S. The muscles do NOT act like rubber bands and I’m not going to get into why as it is more than I wish to describe with Hogan’s swing. Power comes from the law of the flail, not some build up of tension between the torso and lower body. His right leg straightens in the back swing and the left leg bends. The right leg actually pushes his right hip behind him, pivoting around the left hip attachment. You can actually preset your stance this way (I do). Brace your right leg away from your body and set it straight. Bend your left leg. On the backswing push your right hip behind you by pushing with the right foot. This will pivot your right hip behind you. If done correctly, you’ll feel a freedom of motion not bound by this counter-productive "tension" and your leg action will be automatic. (i.e. you don’t have to think about sliding the hips, turning the hips, etc to get the weight to transfer) The feeling is that you are ahead of the ball and pulling the club through the ball. A very powerful position and feeling and your legs will suppport your pulling motion automatically. You’ll be using the club the way it was designed to be used. Traditional instruction says turn the hips around the spine. There the left hip moves forward and the right hip moves back. This stay behind the ball stuff, but transfer the weight with the hips is one of the reasons that so many golfers cast (push) the clubhead at the ball. After all, how can you launch something if you are behind it? You have to throw or push the club into it. There is no other way. The only logical way to compress a golf ball is to get ahead of the ball and stay there. Pull the club into the ball. Have fun. Scott
Response:
Once again, sorry for this late reply, I just got back from 2 weeks of glorious skiing. (I suggest everyone drop whatever they are doing and head immediately to Colorado before it melts.) David, have you actually read McLean’s "Eight-Step Swing", and "X-Factor Swing" books, and seen the videos by the same name? Or are these second-hand impressions? If you do, you will notice that Jim stresses that the flex in the right knee must be maintained, and that straightening the right leg is a "death move", as is letting the weight roll over to the outside of the right foot.
Ben Hogan straighten his right leg (used it like a buttress) and pivoted behind the left leg on the backswing. It would seem like good company to be in if done correctly. Scott You will also notice that Jim advocates, for the advanced player, that the lower body lead the down swing, so I don’t see that Jim is teaching much different than the Golfing Machine on these issues. I guess the key difference is that the Golfing Machine doesn’t recomend coiling? Correct me if I got that wrong from your post.
<much snippage
Response:
Scott wrote Ben Hogan straighten his right leg (used it like a buttress)
I’m not sure I agree with this comment about Hogan straightening his right leg, unless you’re quoting from something other than Hogan’s "The Modern Fundamentals Of Golf", in which case I’d like to know your source. I quote from his book: "As regards the right leg, it should maintain the same position it had at address, the same angle in relation to the ground, throughout the backswing. …. When you have a stable right leg and the right knee remains pointed in a bit, it prevents the leg from sagging and swaying out to the right and carrying the body along with it." and pivoted behind the left leg on the backswing.
I don’t understand what you mean by this. I understand Hogan to have recommended that there should be a build up of tension between shoulders and hips by NOT allowing the hips to turn to soon. How does this square with what you are saying? — Eddie Haynes-Smart Cape Town, South Africa
Response:
Once again, sorry for this late reply, I just got back from 2 weeks of glorious skiing. (I suggest everyone drop whatever they are doing and head immediately to Colorado before it melts.) David, have you actually read McLean’s "Eight-Step Swing", and "X-Factor Swing" books, and seen the videos by the same name? Or are these second-hand impressions? If you do, you will notice that Jim stresses that the flex in the right knee must be maintained, and that straightening the right leg is a "death move", as is letting the weight roll over to the outside of the right foot. You will also notice that Jim advocates, for the advanced player, that the lower body lead the down swing, so I don’t see that Jim is teaching much different than the Golfing Machine on these issues. I guess the key difference is that the Golfing Machine doesn’t recomend coiling? Correct me if I got that wrong from your post. The main message I got from X-factor, was that I needed to improve the flexibility of my back. Through stretching, I have, and I think my distance has improved as a result when I manage to get a full shoulder turn. Of course, there have been several other changes going on in my swing, so I can’t say this is the only reason. I also have a friend who studies nothing but "X-factor Swing", and has gone from hitting average drives to hitting truly prodigeous distances. So it works for some, at least. McLean isn’t just a "one-trick pony". The X-factor is just a small part of his instruction books and videos. The books, in particular, have a lot more depth than the videos (and no one can say the videos aren’t detailed). So, if a student takes one swing key and mis-applies it (taking the whole bottle of aspirin, as Harvey would say), does that mean the teacher has failed? Put another way, if some students of the "Golfing Machine" have stiff and mechanical swings, is the "Golfing Machine" to blame for that? Of course not. Like I said before, I’m not a McLean zealot, even though I may sound like one. (I think he should have spent as much time and detail on rhythm as he did on swing positions.) However, I think he offers a LOT of bang for the buck, and frankly, I’m stumped trying to come up with a better recommendation for a video on the full swing. Perhaps you have one? BTW, I also agree with remsleep’s comments below. – Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I agree with your comment re: restricting hip turn, I think McLean’s X-factor is a bit more flexible (intentional pun) than you think. From what I’ve seen of it, he says that golfers with the flexibility of a Woods or an Els can have max. delta between hip and shoulder. The rest of us have to let the hip turn slightly. He’s trying to avoid — perhaps by overcompensating — a full turn of the hips, which leads to overswinging. Remsleep :The Golfing Machine advocates hip action is what leads and powers the :down stroke shoulder turn. It’s not the shoulder to hip differential :in the back stroke that produces power, but the differential in the :down stroke. Restricting your hip turn restricts shoulder turn in the :same way keeping both feet flat restricts your back stroke turn. : :Because students of McLean try for this X-Factor they try to stretch :the shoulder turn further than their muscles want to allow leading to :problems. Mechanically it’s a nightmare. Because the shoulder turn :is restricted the golfer has to lift the right side by straightening :the right leg, letting the weight roll over to the outside of the :right foot or what ever as a compensation in his attempt to make a :full shoulder turn. : :IMO, the X-Factor does more harm than good and it would be beneficial :to the golfer to let the hips turn back freely so you can make a full :comfortable shoulder turn. : : : 
avid :Golf Instruction Homepage :http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
While I agree with your comment re: restricting hip turn, I think McLean’s X-factor is a bit more flexible (intentional pun) than you think. From what I’ve seen of it, he says that golfers with the flexibility of a Woods or an Els can have max. delta between hip and shoulder. The rest of us have to let the hip turn slightly. He’s trying to avoid — perhaps by overcompensating — a full turn of the hips, which leads to overswinging. Remsleep
:The Golfing Machine advocates hip action is what leads and powers the :down stroke shoulder turn. It’s not the shoulder to hip differential :in the back stroke that produces power, but the differential in the :down stroke. Restricting your hip turn restricts shoulder turn in the :same way keeping both feet flat restricts your back stroke turn. : :Because students of McLean try for this X-Factor they try to stretch :the shoulder turn further than their muscles want to allow leading to :problems. Mechanically it’s a nightmare. Because the shoulder turn :is restricted the golfer has to lift the right side by straightening :the right leg, letting the weight roll over to the outside of the :right foot or what ever as a compensation in his attempt to make a :full shoulder turn. : :IMO, the X-Factor does more harm than good and it would be beneficial :to the golfer to let the hips turn back freely so you can make a full :comfortable shoulder turn. : : : avid :Golf Instruction Homepage :http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
Now getting back to your comment on X-factor. How does the golfing machine differ from this? Does it not believe in a coil? Or the delta between hip turn and shoulder turn producing power?
The Golfing Machine advocates hip action is what leads and powers the down stroke shoulder turn. It’s not the shoulder to hip differential in the back stroke that produces power, but the differential in the down stroke. Restricting your hip turn restricts shoulder turn in the same way keeping both feet flat restricts your back stroke turn. Because students of McLean try for this X-Factor they try to stretch the shoulder turn further than their muscles want to allow leading to problems. Mechanically it’s a nightmare. Because the shoulder turn is restricted the golfer has to lift the right side by straightening the right leg, letting the weight roll over to the outside of the right foot or what ever as a compensation in his attempt to make a full shoulder turn. IMO, the X-Factor does more harm than good and it would be beneficial to the golfer to let the hips turn back freely so you can make a full comfortable shoulder turn. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
I’m not Scott, but I would give Jim McLean’s videos "The Eight-Step Swing" and "X-Factor Swing" both at least 9’s.
Chiropractors have given the "X_Factor Swing" video at least a 10 because it has increased their business two fold. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
I’m not Scott, but I would give Jim McLean’s videos "The Eight-Step Swing" and "X-Factor Swing" both at least 9’s. Chiropractors have given the "X_Factor Swing" video at least a 10 because it has increased their business two fold. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
I’m not a rabid McLean follower, but he goes into a LOT of detail on the golf swing backed up by tons of video research. One thing I like about him is that he has studied a wide variety of sources including Ballard, Hogan, Venturi, Moe Norman, and yes, even the Golfing Machine (and a lot more). He doesn’t prescribe a fixed model for the swing, but defines a range of permissible options, and also "death moves", things you must NOT do. In my mind, he is pretty much mainstream, middle of the road golf instruction. He is (was?) head pro at Doral and contributing editor at Golf magazine, and makes a lot of appearances on the Golf Channel. He gives you enough detail, in his videos and books, that you should be able to go through the correct motions if you follow his directions. And he is understandable to the average golfer, despite the detail, which can’t be said of certain other complex systems. I only have a few knocks on McLean. First, he never seems to get around to discussing the grip in depth. I guess he assumes that everyone has already read Hogan’s book. Second, although he stresses that people shouldn’t swing by going through 8 separate steps, and that the steps are just checkpoint positions to diagnose swing faults, maybe he doesn’t emphasize that enough. He should talk a little more about tempo & timing. Although he DOES discuss tempo, he just does not give it as much attention as he gives to positions. All in all, though, I think you definitely get your money’s worth from Jim’s videos, especially if you tape them off the Golf Channel for free. The books go into even more depth. Now getting back to your comment on X-factor. How does the golfing machine differ from this? Does it not believe in a coil? Or the delta between hip turn and shoulder turn producing power? I’m not trying to start a pissing contest here, just trying to understand what the golfing machine teaches in this regard. PS I’m going out of town for a couple weeks skiing, so I won’t be able to respond back for a while. Have fun in Austin!
Response:
Scott, I’ve read a couple of your reviews, and so far they’ve received a "2" and a "3" in your rating system (for very good reason by your desription of the tapes). I was wondering which tapes you’ve reviewed that are in the 8-10 range.
I’m not Scott, but I would give Jim McLean’s videos "The Eight-Step Swing" and "X-Factor Swing" both at least 9’s.
Response:
Colin, the best video I have seen on golf is Leadbetter and Price’s "Faults and Fixes". It isn’t geared to a beginner, but even a 20 handicapper can gain quite a lot from it. — Steve Conlon Conlon’s Custom Clubs-NJ http://www.proclubs.com
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Scott, please forgive me for delving into your past, but a search through Dejanews of your video reviews reveals the following assessments (maybe I missed a couple): David Blair 2/10 Triple Coil 4/10 Dalton McCrary 2/10 David Lee 2/10 (book only) Jerry Heard 4.5/10 Bobby Schaeffer 3/10 You have to admit that these "marks" are pretty dismal.
Yes, they are dismal. I tend to pick up the most hyped and the most bizarre of the "systems" tapes. Listen, if you are going to make wild claims over what the tape will do for your swing "add 30 yards", "golf shots that sound like a small nuclear explosion", "hit as straight as you can point", etc. … you sure as hell better come through. So really it is pretty simple. Bad scores because of hype and marketing claims. Beyond that, I look for well produced videos with coherent arguments why a company’s "golf system" is better. Often times, the system just doesn’t work. Form your own conclusions. These tapes are aimed at separating a golfer from his money. Period. I take a little time out to see if there is any validity to the claims and try to help the average guy save a buck or two from getting sucked in. Besides, it is just my opinion. Take it for what you will, but I’ll bet if you polled the people that ordered the video, you’d probably find that most sent them back or just thought it wasn’t worth the money. I send all of the videos back. Some videos I receive gratis because I request them for an independent review. I’m a golf junky and like to see what new ideas are out there. The stranger the idea, perhaps the better. So far, most everything has fallen into the category of junk. The best tape that I reviewed was Gerry Hogan’s "The Challenge". I gave it an 8.5. If you want to order, you can find it at www.hogangolf.com. I have no affiliation with any golf company. <the rest snipped Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham
Scott
Response:
I’m a study of the golf swing and REALLY enjoy new material on golf instruction. Please allow me to give you an amateur opinion this golfing system. —- Jim McClellan’s video is approximately 30 minutes long and costs around $30.00 with shipping. Rating (1 to 10 – 10 being outstanding): 3
Scott, I’ve read a couple of your reviews, and so far they’ve received a "2" and a "3" in your rating system (for very good reason by your desription of the tapes). I was wondering which tapes you’ve reviewed that are in the 8-10 range. — Mike Murray ICQ# 12092418 http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/5501/ Home of the International Fantasy Football League
Response:
I’m a study of the golf swing and REALLY enjoy new material on golf instruction. Please allow me to give you an amateur opinion this golfing system. Jim McClellan’s video is approximately 30 minutes long and costs around $30.00 with shipping. Rating (1 to 10 – 10 being outstanding): 3
<rest of review snipped Scott, please forgive me for delving into your past, but a search through Dejanews of your video reviews reveals the following assessments (maybe I missed a couple): David Blair 2/10 Triple Coil 4/10 Dalton McCrary 2/10 David Lee 2/10 (book only) Jerry Heard 4.5/10 Bobby Schaeffer 3/10 You have to admit that these "marks" are pretty dismal. What I was wondering was: a) Do you feel, given your consistently low appraisals, that golf videos suck generally? b) If this is the case, why? Most times you don’t seem to complain generally about the production values, but more about the teaching system. c) Can these teaching "systems" *on video* ever be a good way of learning about the swing? Your assessments would seem to answer in the negative. d) How much have you spent on golf videos in the last year or two? Are the stores sick of you sending them back? Why do you keep buying them? 
I must say that my own experience with a couple of videos hasn’t been overwhelming. I borrowed an Arnold Palmer video from my library, and while there were some good tips, I found it too slow generally, as well as a bit out-of-date . I also got a David Leadbetter video free as part of a golf magazine subscription, and his style drove me to distraction, although what he said was probably good. Perhaps it’s something to watch in small bites. Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham
Response:
I’m a study of the golf swing and REALLY enjoy new material on golf instruction. Please allow me to give you an amateur opinion this golfing system. —- Jim McClellan’s video is approximately 30 minutes long and costs around $30.00 with shipping. Rating (1 to 10 – 10 being outstanding): 3 QUALITY: Video quality was professional with above average sound. Jim McClellan is a name I had not heard before. However, I have heard of his video through the video and suggestion pipeline that is r.s.g. Some information is contained on his web site: www.mcgolf.com, but overall consider Jim McClellan a teaching pro with no Tour history or background that made a video. (Disclaimer: That isn’t a strike against and could be considered a plus. However, I just wanted to inform you that there might be a reason why he isn’t a household name). CONTENT: The video is "tongue in cheek" throughout. While I agree that variety is the spice of life, there just isn’t enough zest to make this video tasteful. The Swing’s the Thing starts out with a (very well done) superimposed sign of the McClellan Golf Academy on some old English mannor and grounds. Considering the author’s personality, I’m going to assume this was not meant to deceive the viewer into believing that McClellan Golf Academy exists (let alone in a huge estate) and since the video and correspondense originated in TN, I think it is a safe assumption. Jim McClellan claims that he has golf’s perfect swing. In fact, he claims that all you have to do is watch him enough to get the same results that he purports to have! Honestly, if that were true the courses would be slam full of golfers swinging like Freddie Couples instead of Charles Barkley. Right off the bat McClellan loses some major credibility points. Another point is that McClellan spends the whole video swinging the club (from a few different angles, but mostly front on) while talking to imaginary people near the tee. He pokes fun at their imaginary questions and changes his voice slightly to pretend he is in their hacker personna. While this is OK (and I mean *just* OK) the first couple of times – it gets *really* old after the 15th question/answer routine. You end up getting the feeling that McClellan has some personality disorder and should be wearing a little white jacket that ties in the back instead of a Hawaiian shirt. SYSTEM: According to McClellan, there are three checkpoints in the perfect golf swing. The few hodgepodged drills that are cobbled together revolve around these checkpoints. (1) The head remains in the same place throughout the swing well into follow through. And he means exactly in the same place. Put it there and leave it there. An excellent case for spinal injury if you ask me. (2) At the top of the backswing the hands should be as high as your hat and reside (side on) somewhere between the end of the shoulder and your neck. McClellan believes that most amateurs do not turn enough (for various reasons). Those who are not flexible enough to really turn 90* should stretch in order to get there. (3) The finish should be balanced with hands (again) as high as your hat. That’s it. Watch me. Swing like me. Three checkpoints and you’re good to go. The only and I mean ONLY reason this video didn’t get a score of 2 or less is because it might have some application to beginners and those who are so caught up in the complexities of the golf swing that they can’t hit the ball. It is about as simple as it gets, but is really too simple and has little value otherwise. My guess is that anyone that tries to emulate this swing will not be hitting the ball 300 yards as Jim McClellan claims, but slicing the piss out of the ball. While there is not doubt that Jim McClellan is a character, his "watch me swing the club" osmosis teaching is just not convincing. Anyway, I sent this one back for a refund. The choice is yours. If you have any other questions, let me know. Scott