Question:
: Sometimes I think you’re better off taking the critical frames and : making a number of jpegs of them, like David and Will did, rather than : just retaining the video. You can often see more from a still shot for : analysis purposes. Also, most recent DV cameras have a "progressive : scan" mode that allows you record video "scene-by-scene", which reduces : field slippage. Sorry to get in on this late. I researched for quite some time earlier this year for a good video system for analyzing the golf swing. I ended up with a getting a Canon Elura mini-DV digital video camera, and I connect it up to my Powerbook for processing of the data via a firewire card. The best feature, IMO, is the progressive scan mode as Colin mentions above. Even video cameras with a high shutter speed will have still frames a bit blurry on fast moving objects. The progressive scan mode gives really clear still-frames, even during the downswing when the clubhead is traveling quite fast (+100 mph). I think you can get an Elura for about 1200 US dollars these days. Cheers, JWB
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In rec.sport.golf As for a camera, any one will do, but the best swing results will come from a camera that can do at least 2,000 fps. 2000 frames per second?
Oops. Or did you mean 1/2000th of a second shutter speed?
Yes.
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The camera cost in Australia is about A$2500, the Firewire card and Premier software was A$1500. You can probably halve those prices for US equivalents.
golly. how did this new gear compare to the old camera and $100 capture card? i still havent got meself a card yet, but i want one. ithought i would get the cheapest kind just to see if i make the effort to use it. (the garage is full of expensive unused toys enough already) regards Mark Blake Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it." RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/blakem.htm
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golly. how did this new gear compare to the old camera and $100 capture card?
Infinitely better. Better capture, doesn’t miss a frame, faster shutter speed, clearer picture, better pixel size (720 x 576), better pause control, better sound, smaller bag! Cheers Colin Wilson Australian handicap: 10.4 RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
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golly. how did this new gear compare to the old camera and $100 capture card? Infinitely better. Better capture, doesn’t miss a frame, faster shutter speed, clearer picture, better pixel size (720 x 576), better pause control, better sound, smaller bag!
the video you sent me of your swing last year, was that done with the new one or the old one? regards Mark Blake Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it." RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/blakem.htm
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the video you sent me of your swing last year, was that done with the new one or the old one?
Are you talking about the swing or the camera? 
It was the old one. I’ll see if I can post a swing with the new one soon … camera that is. Cheers Colin Wilson Australian handicap: 10.4 RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
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the video you sent me of your swing last year, was that done with the new one or the old one? Are you talking about the swing or the camera?
maybe i was talking about the swinger :-) It was the old one. I’ll see if I can post a swing with the new one soon … camera that is.
that would be good for me to see the difference. imaging that is …. regards Mark Blake Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it." RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/blakem.htm
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In rec.sport.golf Recently I’ve been reading some posts from people that talk about how their swing looks like so-and-so’s, how good their swing is, etc. Now. I think all of this comparison (I look like Hogan with a little Nicklaus/Woods thrown in for good measure type stuff) business is a little silly. Isn’t the true measure of the golfer is either the tally in the last box on the scorecard (for the competitive) player, or the amount of fun/relaxation you had while playing (in a timely fashion) for the casual golfer.
There is a saying, "It’s not how, but how many." That said, I would still argue that modeling the swing of a pro with similar physical characteristics as yourself, assuming that pro has a "good" swing, is one of the fastest and best ways to be successful. Modeling is the first and fundamental way we humans learn. I will also argue that a fundamentally sound swing like you will find in Swing Like A Pro, will *usually* be more consistent, require less maintenance, and hold up better under pressure than something less typical. Can you win with an atypical swing? Ask Lee Trevino, Jim Furyk, Allen Doyle, Dana Quigley. But, Trevino himself has said that if he had it to do over again, he would have a more typical swing because his is high maintenance. topic of posting video clips of your golf swing on your personal website has come-up, and this is something I have thought about doing all summer. I’m not an A/V guru, so I’m wondering if someone that is could give a rough idea of what type of camcorder (digital/non-digital) would be best, and how you would transfer the clip to your computer and edit it. Thanks in advance of any help you can provide
There is nothing to it really. You need a video capture card. You can pay from $49 to $2499 for one. The more expensive ones have caching memory and support Digital Video etc other features. You don’t need anything fancy to do golf swing clips. A cheap simple MPEG card will do fine. As for a camera, any one will do, but the best swing results will come from a camera that can do at least 2,000 fps. You do not need digital for that. If you have the tape of the swing, you can even capture from a VCR which means you don’t even have to own the camera. If you have the capture card installed, plug in the camera, find the swing you want to capture, and grab it. It is really quite simple.
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Anyway, the topic of posting video clips of your golf swing on your personal website has come-up, and this is something I have thought about doing all summer. I’m not an A/V guru, so I’m wondering if someone that is could give a rough idea of what type of camcorder (digital/non-digital) would be best, and how you would transfer the clip to your computer and edit it. Thanks in advance of any help you can provide
Brad, I’ve got a Canon MV20i digital video camera. I bought this for my multi-media work, but also partly because it’s got a 1/4000 shutter speed specifically for sports action. Digital will give you the best results, and transfer to a computer without quality loss, but it’s more expensive than analogue. I transfer videos to computer using a Canopus DV Raptor (Firewire) card, which can capture video frame-for-frame (PAL or NTSC) by plugging straight into the camera. I’ve found this card to be excellent. The camera will produce a digital video at 720 x 540 pixels, which is quite large and very high quality (suitable for good MPEG footage). For playback on most computers you need to drop this size down somewhat, compress it and reduce the frame-rate from 25 to 15 fps. The capture software and Canopus card can fully control the camera from the computer ("DV in/out") so you don’t need to fiddle with the camera controls manually. The camera footage displays directly onto your computer monitor for this purpose. The card came with a copy of Adobe Premiere 5.1, which you can use to edit videos, downsize them, add effects, sounds etc. This is very powerful software that can be used to produce professional results. It has a steep learning curve. There are other programs available that are more simple. The main computer requirement is a reasonable processor (mine’s a PII 400, a bit old now), plenty of memory (I’ve got 384Mb), and a fast hard disk (AV rated is best, DMA-66 is OK … anything over 7Mbs transfer rate minimum). I’m hoping if I get the time to make a swing video of my own swing. I’ll put it up somewhere, then the Davids, Scotts etc. can have a field day! The camera cost in Australia is about A$2500, the Firewire card and Premier software was A$1500. You can probably halve those prices for US equivalents. Cheers Colin Wilson Australian handicap: 10.4 RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
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Recently I’ve been reading some posts from people that talk about how their swing looks like so-and-so’s, how good their swing is, etc. Now. I think all of this comparison (I look like Hogan with a little Nicklaus/Woods thrown in for good measure type stuff) business is a little silly. Isn’t the true measure of the golfer is either the tally in the last box on the scorecard (for the competitive) player, or the amount of fun/relaxation you had while playing (in a timely fashion) for the casual golfer.
Exactly! Of course when you can’t impress people with your game you have to resort to other ways of impressing them, i.e. my swing looks like Ben Hogans, my swing looks like Tiger Woods, etc.
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As for a camera, any one will do, but the best swing results will come from a camera that can do at least 2,000 fps.
2000 frames per second? Or did you mean 1/2000th of a second shutter speed? How do you get something faster than the NTSC standard frame rate (30 fps?) Do any of the new digital camcorders actually offer a frame rate faster than the standard? Does it just play back in slow motion if you film at a faster rate? If camcorders don’t offer faster frame rates, are there any reasonable priced computer imaging systems that do? I’ve used my standard Hi-8 camcorder to film my swing but the biggest problem is the slow frame rate. You don’t get enough frames covering the downswing to really see what’s going on everywhere you would like to. — Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
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2000 frames per second? Or did you mean 1/2000th of a second shutter speed?
That’s more like it. Most better DV cameras (I have a Canon MV20i) can get 1/2000th or 1/4000th sec, but you need good light for it. How do you get something faster than the NTSC standard frame rate (30 fps?)
Not in a standard DV or analogue system. Do any of the new digital camcorders actually offer a frame rate faster than the standard? Does it just play back in slow motion if you film at a faster rate?
No. And PAL is only 25fps. You can still get a reasonably fluid swing video by dropping the frame rate back to 15 fps through software (e.g. Premiere), which saves file size. If camcorders don’t offer faster frame rates, are there any reasonable priced computer imaging systems that do?
Depends on what you mean by "reasonably priced". You can probably get some slo-mo proprietary system that costs thousands. I’ve used my standard Hi-8 camcorder to film my swing but the biggest problem is the slow frame rate. You don’t get enough frames covering the downswing to really see what’s going on everywhere you would like to.
The average swing is probably 2 seconds from go to whoa. At 30fps, that will give you about 60 frames for the entire swing, which should easily be enough to see the critical points. You’d get a frame about every 10 degrees of the clubshaft rotation. I don’t think the critical points are as frequent as that, more like address, takeaway, shaft horizontal, arms horizontal, top of backswing, beginning downswing, club horizontal, release/impact, follow through, completed swing. That’s only about ten. If you look at what David Laville did with Will’s swing, there’s only seven critical points that need analysis. (See http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/Will/will.html … btw, notice how the clubhead and hands are blurred in Will’s shots … a faster shutter speed would help reduce this, and you could see whether the clubhead is open or closed etc.) Sometimes I think you’re better off taking the critical frames and making a number of jpegs of them, like David and Will did, rather than just retaining the video. You can often see more from a still shot for analysis purposes. Also, most recent DV cameras have a "progressive scan" mode that allows you record video "scene-by-scene", which reduces field slippage. Cheers Colin Wilson Australian handicap: 10.4 RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
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2000 frames per second? Or did you mean 1/2000th of a second shutter speed? That’s more like it. Most better DV cameras (I have a Canon MV20i) can get 1/2000th or 1/4000th sec, but you need good light for it.
I just checked my Cannon Hi-8 recorder and it has shutter speeds all the way up to 1/10000 of a second. It’s also got a sports mode which I’m assuming selectes the highest shutter speed which is reasonable for the given light level. Beats me why I’ve never been smart enough to use that when filming golf swings … How do you get something faster than the NTSC standard frame rate (30 fps?) Not in a standard DV or analogue system.
That’s what I suspected – but I was hoping there was something I didn’t know about with the new digital camcorders. Do any of the new digital camcorders actually offer a frame rate faster than the standard? Does it just play back in slow motion if you film at a faster rate? No. And PAL is only 25fps. You can still get a reasonably fluid swing video by dropping the frame rate back to 15 fps through software (e.g. Premiere), which saves file size. If camcorders don’t offer faster frame rates, are there any reasonable priced computer imaging systems that do? Depends on what you mean by "reasonably priced". You can probably get some slo-mo proprietary system that costs thousands.
I was looking for a few hundred at most. I’ve used my standard Hi-8 camcorder to film my swing but the biggest problem is the slow frame rate. You don’t get enough frames covering the downswing to really see what’s going on everywhere you would like to. The average swing is probably 2 seconds from go to whoa. At 30fps, that will give you about 60 frames for the entire swing, which should easily be enough to see the critical points. You’d get a frame about every 10 degrees of the clubshaft rotation.
I just re-checked some of my videos and find that through impact, from the horozontal club position before impact to the horozontal club position after impact, I got about 4 frames — and that was on a slow swing. The issue is that with that number of frames through the impact section of the swing you don’t always get a frame that’s as close to impact or right before impact etc as you would like. But you are right, I think you really do get enough. And if you film a series of swings, you will most likely get plenty of good examples at the critical points you are looking for. But a faster frame rate recording would still be a joy to have easy access to. — Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
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And if you film a series of swings, you will most likely get plenty of good examples at the critical points you are looking for.
I think this is something you have to do. But a faster frame rate recording would still be a joy to have easy access to.
With digital video the difficulty is the amount of data. Doubling the frame rate, for instance, means doubling the amount of information required to be captured. It also means it wouldn’t be compatible with any standard video system e.g. PAL or NTSC. Cheers Colin Wilson Australian handicap: 10.4 RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
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Recently I’ve been reading some posts from people that talk about how their swing looks like so-and-so’s, how good their swing is, etc. Now. I think all of this comparison (I look like Hogan with a little Nicklaus/Woods thrown in for good measure type stuff) business is a little silly. Isn’t the true measure of the golfer is either the tally in the last box on the scorecard (for the competitive) player, or the amount of fun/relaxation you had while playing (in a timely fashion) for the casual golfer. Anyway, the topic of posting video clips of your golf swing on your personal website has come-up, and this is something I have thought about doing all summer. I’m not an A/V guru, so I’m wondering if someone that is could give a rough idea of what type of camcorder (digital/non-digital) would be best, and how you would transfer the clip to your computer and edit it. Thanks in advance of any help you can provide
I use an ordinary digital camera (not the best) but it saves directly to a 3.5 floppy disk which I can insert directly into my machine. The camera takes 60 second video clips. It doesn’t really do enough frames per second to capture a good golf swing sequence so… I often combine several swings to get a more complete picture. You need to duplicate your location and swing as accurately as you can. If you are buying a camera or cam-corder expecially for looking at a golf swing… go for a very fast shutter speed. You probably need something at 30+ frames per second. The camera requires a friend to fire it. I also use a run of the mill cam-corder which I can start and leave running. I have a 5" tv I can connect to that and place near the ball position to get live real-time feed back and I also have a setup in my garage that allows me to put the camera over head (a very useful view)… see SLaP screen saver. dsc – acssysdsc
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Find a good background with some straight lines in it like a fence. The best video I have seen was shot against a background grid – 4×8 plywood painted white with vertical and horizontal stripes. You can really see the body move back and forth and up and down. — Ball Marks: Fix yours and one more
Response:
Anyway, the topic of posting video clips of your golf swing on your personal website has come-up, and this is something I have thought about doing all summer. I’m not an A/V guru, so I’m wondering if someone that is could give a rough idea of what type of camcorder (digital/non-digital) would be best, and how you would transfer the clip to your computer and edit it. Thanks in advance of any help you can provide
Brad, I’ve got a Canon MV20i digital video camera. I bought this for my multi-media work, but also partly because it’s got a 1/4000 shutter speed specifically for sports action. Digital will give you the best results, and transfer to a computer without quality loss, but it’s more expensive than analogue. I transfer videos to computer using a Canopus DV Raptor (Firewire) card, which can capture video frame-for-frame (PAL or NTSC) by plugging straight into the camera. I’ve found this card to be excellent. The camera will produce a digital video at 720 x 540 pixels, which is quite large and very high quality (suitable for good MPEG footage). For playback on most computers you need to drop this size down somewhat, compress it and reduce the frame-rate from 25 to 15 fps. The capture software and Canopus card can fully control the camera from the computer ("DV in/out") so you don’t need to fiddle with the camera controls manually. The camera footage displays directly onto your computer monitor for this purpose. The card came with a copy of Adobe Premiere 5.1, which you can use to edit videos, downsize them, add effects, sounds etc. This is very powerful software that can be used to produce professional results. It has a steep learning curve. There are other programs available that are more simple. The main computer requirement is a reasonable processor (mine’s a PII 400, a bit old now), plenty of memory (I’ve got 384Mb), and a fast hard disk (AV rated is best, DMA-66 is OK … anything over 7Mbs transfer rate minimum). I’m hoping if I get the time to make a swing video of my own swing. I’ll put it up somewhere, then the Davids, Scotts etc. can have a field day! The camera cost in Australia is about A$2500, the Firewire card and Premier software was A$1500. You can probably halve those prices for US equivalents. Cheers Colin Wilson Australian handicap: 10.4 RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Recently I’ve been reading some posts from people that talk about how their swing looks like so-and-so’s, how good their swing is, etc. Now. I think all of this comparison (I look like Hogan with a little Nicklaus/Woods thrown in for good measure type stuff) business is a little silly. Isn’t the true measure of the golfer is either the tally in the last box on the scorecard (for the competitive) player, or the amount of fun/relaxation you had while playing (in a timely fashion) for the casual golfer. Anyway, the topic of posting video clips of your golf swing on your personal website has come-up, and this is something I have thought about doing all summer. I’m not an A/V guru, so I’m wondering if someone that is could give a rough idea of what type of camcorder (digital/non-digital) would be best, and how you would transfer the clip to your computer and edit it. Thanks in advance of any help you can provide —
I have a sony MVC digital camera that will take MPEGS. The resolution isn’t very good, however, but you can see the swing in a realtively small file…vs waiting all day for the file to boot up in the case of high resolution. Rob — RSG Rollcall: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/hamiltonr.htm
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Recently I’ve been reading some posts from people that talk about how their swing looks like so-and-so’s, how good their swing is, etc. Now. I think all of this comparison (I look like Hogan with a little Nicklaus/Woods thrown in for good measure type stuff) business is a little silly. Isn’t the true measure of the golfer is either the tally in the last box on the scorecard (for the competitive) player, or the amount of fun/relaxation you had while playing (in a timely fashion) for the casual golfer. Anyway, the topic of posting video clips of your golf swing on your personal website has come-up, and this is something I have thought about doing all summer. I’m not an A/V guru, so I’m wondering if someone that is could give a rough idea of what type of camcorder (digital/non-digital) would be best, and how you would transfer the clip to your computer and edit it. Thanks in advance of any help you can provide — Brad Swanson Ph.D. Postdoctoral Research Fellow Department of Immunology National Jewish Medical Research Center Howard Hughes Medical Institute