Question:
(snip) I recently had a group playing lesson with my golf teacher and five other students. We played four holes in threesomes with a "best two balls" competition. I played in a threesome with another 20-something handicapper plus one good player. The other threesome were all good players (scratch-ish amateurs). The two of us "less accomplished" players each got a stroke a hole. (snip) Brent Hutto
Brent, I’ve played some of my best golf when playing with players that were much better than I was. I will admit that earlier in my golfing life (I’m 53 now) that I would become flustered and out of my game when playing with a good player. When I first started playing again in 5/01 after 3 years off with a torn achilles tendon I was a 26 handicap and happened to have the opportunity to play in a foursome that included both a 2 and a 6 handicapper. I shot an 81 and left their wallets a bit lighter. Boy, were they pissed 
It took me a year to shoot another 81, and I had an 80 last week but am still trying to break the 80 barrier…I need to find a scratch golfer to play with! Dave
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – firstly, being one who watches a lot of golf on TV, I have to disagree that the Pros miss long most of the time. I think that they miss left or right pin high or short 90% of the time. I have no facts or figures to support my position, so it’s certainly arguable… Just for the record, I was talking about long vs short (missing the green) excluding all other sorts of misses. I rarely see a PGA Tour pro miss a GIR short, but long is pretty common. Rob —
I wonder if this has to do with pin placements in tournaments though. It seems that on most holes pins are in the back of greens to maximize the distance for each hole. If, like for us, the pins on some holes were placed in the front of greens I bet you would see more shots by the pros come up short. Just a thought about an interesting subject… Dave
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – firstly, being one who watches a lot of golf on TV, I have to disagree that the Pros miss long most of the time. I think that they miss left or right pin high or short 90% of the time. I have no facts or figures to support my position, so it’s certainly arguable… secondly, while I agree that it’s not good to be short all of the time, wouldn’t your intended target on a green depend on pin position relative to the center of the green, and trouble near that pin position? At my club, on virtually all holes, long is Death. If the pin is in the front of the green then it’s OK to up club so a well hit shot might end up long in the center of the green, but any pins in the center to back of the greens require a little more thought process than just "I wanna be long". Most of our greens also slope back to front making any return shot down the hill more difficult. I have a much easier time with a pitch over a sand trap than a bump and run down the slope…
I recently had a group playing lesson with my golf teacher and five other students. We played four holes in threesomes with a "best two balls" competition. I played in a threesome with another 20-something handicapper plus one good player. The other threesome were all good players (scratch-ish amateurs). The two of us "less accomplished" players each got a stroke a hole. On the Par 5 we played, the green slopes tremendously from the back down to the front. Many putts from above the hole will roll all the way back down into the fairway. When the four-hole round was over the teacher gave us our evaluations, especially concerning the Par 5 hole. The threesome of good players all hit approach shots above the hole. Their best two balls were both bogeys. Our threesome put three balls below the hole (20 feet, 8 feet, 6 feet) and we all two-putted for a par and two bogeys (net pars). Now this was hardly a fair comparison since the teacher had picked this hole for the lesson partly because he knew these guys would be firing at the flag (which was way up at the top of the green, nearly to the back fringe). But his point remains. It doesn’t matter how good a golf swing you have if you don’t choose the right targets. I’ll bet those low-handicappers put their approach shots within 10 feet of where they were aiming. It’s just that they aimed at the flag and went 10 feet long. From there, it’s either one putt or a putt, a chip and another putt (or two). As it turned out, for the four hole match our two best balls not only beat theirs, we would have won without handicap strokes. It was a cold, breezy day and four holes with a teaching pro breathing down your neck isn’t the same as real golf but I enjoyed the heck out of it anyway 
I also like that two-best-ball format since it let me hack around to an eight on the first hole without costing my team the match. I’m learning not to be embarrased by stringing several bad shots together in front of much better players. It helped that the good player in our threesome played like a pro. Hit the fairway, ball below the hole, try to get the birdie putt to die in the hole, have a six-inch tap-in for par. I wish I could do that for four holes in a row somewhere during my rounds. I really wish I could do it four holes in a row and be disappointed not to have any birdies… Brent Hutto
Response:
firstly, being one who watches a lot of golf on TV, I have to disagree that the Pros miss long most of the time. I think that they miss left or right pin high or short 90% of the time. I have no facts or figures to support my position, so it’s certainly arguable…
Just for the record, I was talking about long vs short (missing the green) excluding all other sorts of misses. I rarely see a PGA Tour pro miss a GIR short, but long is pretty common. Rob — GOP (Golf Only Pledge…I will only initiate golf related threads) Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~frostback2002)
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have finished Rotella’s book on putting. Great book. You wanna putt well, you gotta read that book. I’ve moved on to Floyd’s book on scoring (someone here recommended it, so I got it!). Another great book. It gave me an idea to try something completely different. One issue he raised is how us hackers are always underclubbing. I wondered how often I see a PGA Tour pro miss short vs how often I see a PGA Tour pro miss long when they miss greens (excluding all other sorts of misses). They rarely miss short, but often miss long (miss the green..short and on the green is on the green, not a miss in this context). I then thought of a recent post about how a guy will blow a shot over a green with one type of club but not another, so he discarded the clubs that he blows over the green from time to time (wouldn’t want to play like a pro, I guess!). In any event, my biggest problem is hitting greens, and I come up short a lot. I have the right club for a well struck shot, but how often do I strike the ball so well with a full shot..or what I think is a 70% shot + the overswing? So the completely different thing I am going to try is select a club that I think is too much, one that I know without a doubt can reach the back of the green for sure, absolutlely, with any sort of decent hit, and as GH would say "tweak" from there, rather than trying to find some perfect appraoch shot and coming up short all the time. I wanna play like the pros; if I miss, I miss LONG! Today, on a par 5, I pulled a drive into the woods, topped a 5W out about 180 yards, hit a PW thin, but on the toe to about 8 feet, blocked the birdie putt, but left myself an 8" tap in. A par, and every shot was a mishit of one sort or another. I can hit pull hooks, topped fairway woods and toe hit wedges all day…now all I have to do is learn to score with those shots…it can be done…I have been there…today! Rob —
firstly, being one who watches a lot of golf on TV, I have to disagree that the Pros miss long most of the time. I think that they miss left or right pin high or short 90% of the time. I have no facts or figures to support my position, so it’s certainly arguable… secondly, while I agree that it’s not good to be short all of the time, wouldn’t your intended target on a green depend on pin position relative to the center of the green, and trouble near that pin position? At my club, on virtually all holes, long is Death. If the pin is in the front of the green then it’s OK to up club so a well hit shot might end up long in the center of the green, but any pins in the center to back of the greens require a little more thought process than just "I wanna be long". Most of our greens also slope back to front making any return shot down the hill more difficult. I have a much easier time with a pitch over a sand trap than a bump and run down the slope… just my $0.02 worth, — Dave Jones RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=jonesd
Response:
Rob, it sounds like your GIR has improved with "enough club". I’m convinced that half of my misses - with enough club- go left or right..not over or under the green. Therefore, the choice of the longer club WAS correct. It was my accuracy, or lack of same..that made me miss the GIR. I would have been even FARTHER from the green with a shorter club, given the same erroneous direction. — regards, RichG
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Round #1 with the "make sure you have enough club no matter what" strategy. A scramble, but I used a lot of different clubs to shoot at the green. #1 110 yards out. I used a 9I, rolled of the left side onto the fringe. 0/1 GIR. #2 40 yards out. LW to middle of the green. 1/2 GIR #3 170 yard shot. 5W to back of green. 2/3 GIR #4 shanked a chip shot from 10 feet off the green. 2/4 GIR #5 150 yard par 3, missed left with a 5I, like Charlie Brown with the place kick, one day…..2/5 GIR #6 On the par 5 green in 2 with someone elses shot (I was maybe 20 yards right!) 2/5 GIR #7 170 yard par 3, uphill, rolled off the left side onto the fringe, pin high, with a 5W 2/6 GIR #8 missed left from 145 with a 5I pin high, 2/7 GIR #9 easy GIR, even my ball was no more than 20 feet from the green in 2 3/8 GIR #10 chili dip LW from 60 yards 3/9 GIR #11 185 yard par 3, rolled off left side to fringe with a 3W, a little long 3/10 GIR #12 popped up a 6I from 145 short right, about 2 feet from the green 3/11 GIR #13 8I from 120 on the green 4/12 GIR #14 7I from 135 5/13 GIR #15 Putt from fringe for GIR. Even I can’t miss that! 6/14 #16 5W missed green by a foot right, pin high 6/15 GIR #17 200 yard par 3 missed left with 3W 6/16 GIR #18 9I to middle of green from 110. 7/17 GIR I can’t recall hitting as many as 7 greens in any round, scramble or no. I had a couple of rounds last year where I hit 6. The misses were all close. I might have missed from where my shot was in 2 on #6, but I would bet on my ability to make that shot from 20 yards! I missed #4 from 10 feet by as much as I missed any other green but #8 (maybe 3 yards left) and #5 (maybe 5 yards left). Floyd is right. I didn’t hit perfect shots very often, but marginal shots on say 7 and 16 left me in good shape. Slight toe hits on 1 and 13 didn’t hurt; the ball still got there. Most importantly, the urge to swing hard was gone completely. I knew if I swung hard and hit it, I would be over the green, so I took smooth easy swings and at worst advanced the ball to within 10 yards of the green every single time. I also had the pleasure of smacking a couple of 3W’s over 230 off the deck and one monster drive, which are some of the fun things about scrambles! Rob — GOP (Golf Only Pledge…I will only initiate golf related threads) Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~frostback2002)
Response:
Our point is, there are courses with no "protected front" on most of the greens. Brent Hutto
Then I bump and run and am a very happy guy!!!!! — regards, RichG
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – average golfer comes up 10/15 yards short more than half the time ( we all think we are gong to hit a – perfect – shot every time! )…then his adding a club will put him/her ON the green. If he/she bounces to the back edge ( happens to me often, now ) it still usually beats chipping/pitching/chili-dipping over the protected front of the green. Try it on those holes where you are short more often than not.
Response:
Today, on a par 5, I pulled a drive into the woods, topped a 5W out about 180 yards, hit a PW thin, but on the toe to about 8 feet, blocked the birdie putt, but left myself an 8" tap in. A par
Are you touting for pupils ? George ~
Response:
Round #1 with the "make sure you have enough club no matter what" strategy. A scramble, but I used a lot of different clubs to shoot at the green. #1 110 yards out. I used a 9I, rolled of the left side onto the fringe. 0/1 GIR. #2 40 yards out. LW to middle of the green. 1/2 GIR #3 170 yard shot. 5W to back of green. 2/3 GIR #4 shanked a chip shot from 10 feet off the green. 2/4 GIR #5 150 yard par 3, missed left with a 5I, like Charlie Brown with the place kick, one day…..2/5 GIR #6 On the par 5 green in 2 with someone elses shot (I was maybe 20 yards right!) 2/5 GIR #7 170 yard par 3, uphill, rolled off the left side onto the fringe, pin high, with a 5W 2/6 GIR #8 missed left from 145 with a 5I pin high, 2/7 GIR #9 easy GIR, even my ball was no more than 20 feet from the green in 2 3/8 GIR #10 chili dip LW from 60 yards 3/9 GIR #11 185 yard par 3, rolled off left side to fringe with a 3W, a little long 3/10 GIR #12 popped up a 6I from 145 short right, about 2 feet from the green 3/11 GIR #13 8I from 120 on the green 4/12 GIR #14 7I from 135 5/13 GIR #15 Putt from fringe for GIR. Even I can’t miss that! 6/14 #16 5W missed green by a foot right, pin high 6/15 GIR #17 200 yard par 3 missed left with 3W 6/16 GIR #18 9I to middle of green from 110. 7/17 GIR I can’t recall hitting as many as 7 greens in any round, scramble or no. I had a couple of rounds last year where I hit 6. The misses were all close. I might have missed from where my shot was in 2 on #6, but I would bet on my ability to make that shot from 20 yards! I missed #4 from 10 feet by as much as I missed any other green but #8 (maybe 3 yards left) and #5 (maybe 5 yards left). Floyd is right. I didn’t hit perfect shots very often, but marginal shots on say 7 and 16 left me in good shape. Slight toe hits on 1 and 13 didn’t hurt; the ball still got there. Most importantly, the urge to swing hard was gone completely. I knew if I swung hard and hit it, I would be over the green, so I took smooth easy swings and at worst advanced the ball to within 10 yards of the green every single time. I also had the pleasure of smacking a couple of 3W’s over 230 off the deck and one monster drive, which are some of the fun things about scrambles! Rob — GOP (Golf Only Pledge…I will only initiate golf related threads) Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~frostback2002)
Response:
golfer comes up 10/15 yards short more than half the time ( we all think we are gong to hit a – perfect – shot every time! )…then his adding a club will put him/her ON the green. If he/she bounces to the back edge ( happens to me often, now ) it still usually beats chipping/pitching/chili-dipping over the protected front of the green. Try it on those holes where you are short more often than not.
Our point is, there are courses with no "protected front" on most of the greens. Brent Hutto
Response:
golfer comes up 10/15 yards short more than half the time ( we all think we are gong to hit a – perfect – shot every time! )…then his adding a club will put him/her ON the green. If he/she bounces to the back edge ( happens to me often, now ) it still usually beats chipping/pitching/chili-dipping over the protected front of the green. Try it on those holes where you are short more often than not. — regards, RichG
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I went to the Golfsmith school… one thing that they drilled into my thick head was that 90% of duffers come up short most of the time. They NEVER (or at least rarely)…come up long. Most of the trouble (traps, etc. ) on our courses protect the FRONT of the green. On my home course, almost all of the greens are elevated to some degree, and getting on from the back meant having to get over a rise, and then stop the ball on a green running away from you. Prior to the course renovation, there were very few bunkers to deal with so coming up short was the smart play if you were going to miss. Now they’ve added several bunkers that guard the front of the green, so you’re screwed regardless!! :-) To make matters worse, they did away with the practice bunker. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Response:
When I went to the Golfsmith school… one thing that they drilled into my thick head was that 90% of duffers come up short most of the time. They NEVER (or at least rarely)…come up long. Most of the trouble (traps, etc. ) on our courses protect the FRONT of the green.
On my home course, almost all of the greens are elevated to some degree, and getting on from the back meant having to get over a rise, and then stop the ball on a green running away from you. Prior to the course renovation, there were very few bunkers to deal with so coming up short was the smart play if you were going to miss. Now they’ve added several bunkers that guard the front of the green, so you’re screwed regardless!! :-) To make matters worse, they did away with the practice bunker. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Response:
Excellent point. Always use enough club. The only exception would be if there were severe trouble behind the target. — Bryan D. Greer Tulsa, OK bdgreer1 at cox dot net
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have finished Rotella’s book on putting. Great book. You wanna putt well, you gotta read that book. I’ve moved on to Floyd’s book on scoring (someone here recommended it, so I got it!). Another great book. It gave me an idea to try something completely different. One issue he raised is how us hackers are always underclubbing. I wondered how often I see a PGA Tour pro miss short vs how often I see a PGA Tour pro miss long when they miss greens (excluding all other sorts of misses). They rarely miss short, but often miss long (miss the green..short and on the green is on the green, not a miss in this context). I then thought of a recent post about how a guy will blow a shot over a green with one type of club but not another, so he discarded the clubs that he blows over the green from time to time (wouldn’t want to play like a pro, I guess!). In any event, my biggest problem is hitting greens, and I come up short a lot. I have the right club for a well struck shot, but how often do I strike the ball so well with a full shot..or what I think is a 70% shot + the overswing? So the completely different thing I am going to try is select a club that I think is too much, one that I know without a doubt can reach the back of the green for sure, absolutlely, with any sort of decent hit, and as GH would say "tweak" from there, rather than trying to find some perfect appraoch shot and coming up short all the time. I wanna play like the pros; if I miss, I miss LONG! Today, on a par 5, I pulled a drive into the woods, topped a 5W out about 180 yards, hit a PW thin, but on the toe to about 8 feet, blocked the birdie putt, but left myself an 8" tap in. A par, and every shot was a mishit of one sort or another. I can hit pull hooks, topped fairway woods and toe hit wedges all day…now all I have to do is learn to score with those shots…it can be done…I have been there…today! Rob — GOP (Golf Only Pledge…I will only initiate golf related threads) Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~frostback2002)
Response:
I now often take an extra club. I sometimes hit it over the green. My "come back" shot is a lot easier because, most of the time, I don’t have to pitch/chip over a sand trap. I also can hit my wedges/short irons smoothly, instead of trying to kill them….. trying to get the maximum and perfect shot. It’s just a mind thing but worthwhile to my game, at least.
It depends on the course. My home course has 27 holes and of those there are two Par 4’s and a Par 3 that have bunkers in front of the green. There’s also one Par 4 with a pond in front of the green and a couple of holes with bunkers protecting the right side and right-front part of the green. There are at least 15 of the 27 holes where anything that makes it to the back of the green will go over, roll down the slope and leave a tough shot coming back. Several of those have trouble (trees, OB) behind the green that can cost you two or three strokes if you are just a few yards long with your approach. We also have a couple of holes where the green is higher in the front that the back and you have to land the ball on the front edge. I’m not to pround to take an extra club when my iron shots are coming up short. But I never use enough club to reach the back fringe when struck well. I can get up and down half the time from a couple yards short of the green. From a couple yards over the green, that’s maybe one time out of ten. Brent Hutto
Response:
When I went to the Golfsmith school… one thing that they drilled into my thick head was that 90% of duffers come up short most of the time. They NEVER (or at least rarely)…come up long. Most of the trouble (traps, etc. ) on our courses protect the FRONT of the green. I now often take an extra club. I sometimes hit it over the green. My "come back" shot is a lot easier because, most of the time, I don’t have to pitch/chip over a sand trap. I also can hit my wedges/short irons smoothly, instead of trying to kill them….. trying to get the maximum and perfect shot. It’s just a mind thing but worthwhile to my game, at least. — regards, RichG
I have finished Rotella’s book on putting. Great book. You wanna putt well, you gotta read that book. I’ve moved on to Floyd’s book on scoring (someone here recommended it, so I got it!). Another great book. It gave ( snip )
birdie putt, but left myself an 8" tap in. A par, and every shot was – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a mishit of one sort or another. I can hit pull hooks, topped fairway woods and toe hit wedges all day…now all I have to do is learn to score with those shots…it can be done…I have been there…today! Rob —
Response:
I have finished Rotella’s book on putting. Great book. You wanna putt well, you gotta read that book. I’ve moved on to Floyd’s book on scoring (someone here recommended it, so I got it!). Another great book. It gave me an idea to try something completely different. One issue he raised is how us hackers are always underclubbing. I wondered how often I see a PGA Tour pro miss short vs how often I see a PGA Tour pro miss long when they miss greens (excluding all other sorts of misses). They rarely miss short, but often miss long (miss the green..short and on the green is on the green, not a miss in this context). I then thought of a recent post about how a guy will blow a shot over a green with one type of club but not another, so he discarded the clubs that he blows over the green from time to time (wouldn’t want to play like a pro, I guess!). In any event, my biggest problem is hitting greens, and I come up short a lot. I have the right club for a well struck shot, but how often do I strike the ball so well with a full shot..or what I think is a 70% shot + the overswing? So the completely different thing I am going to try is select a club that I think is too much, one that I know without a doubt can reach the back of the green for sure, absolutlely, with any sort of decent hit, and as GH would say "tweak" from there, rather than trying to find some perfect appraoch shot and coming up short all the time. I wanna play like the pros; if I miss, I miss LONG! Today, on a par 5, I pulled a drive into the woods, topped a 5W out about 180 yards, hit a PW thin, but on the toe to about 8 feet, blocked the birdie putt, but left myself an 8" tap in. A par, and every shot was a mishit of one sort or another. I can hit pull hooks, topped fairway woods and toe hit wedges all day…now all I have to do is learn to score with those shots…it can be done…I have been there…today! Rob — GOP (Golf Only Pledge…I will only initiate golf related threads) Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~frostback2002)