swing travel. but even with a point of reference (clock face) one is still evading the real mc coy. of course you might be lucky / good at it. one’s own ingenuity / experience goes a long way toward striking the ball with good results, – "regardless". It is disheartening for one to, or to see any one else – that’s trying to emulate – the perfect swing. this isn’t to say that you should throw caution to the wind, but relax enjoy the game, and with time, it’ll all fall in place. (hopefully):–) —— But in the case I’m referring to, Tiger actually phrased it in terms of a clock face.
m h o
Snip Hint–keep the clubhead outside the hands longer.
Exactly! Not sure what problems this can cause long term, but it is a darn sight better. Having the club outside the hands for a longer period, but this have given me so much more room, and time to swing the club
I’ve always felt that the golf swing is very hard to visualize from the eyes of the golfer. There are almost optical illusions where the club doesn’t seem to go where you think it is going. I’ve looked at many good swings on video from behind the golfer and have a fel for where the club should be in a good swing, but damn if the visual isn’t different from the eye of the golfer.
What is even more amazing is how easy it is to miss or ignore things when you look at your own swing on video. It really helps to have an independant set of eyes to point things out.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It never ceases to amaze me what I learn in a lesson. I play of 12.6, and have a lesson every few months. Generally when my game starts going downhill. The recent swing thoughts I’ve had are, take the club straight back until it is a foot or so past my right foot (right hander), and then making a full shoulder turn, while cocking the wrists correctly. After two swings in front of the Pro, and then him taking video of another two swings. Taking the club away on the inside, by a long way too! Not turning the shoulders fully, Wrist cock was up the pole The takeaway was strange, because from my vantage point over the ball, it looked and felt like it was right along the line parallel with my feet. But the pro helped be see where the correct take away should by, felt strange at first, but I now have a lot more room, so it is easier to turn the shoulders fully. The wrist cock problem was also strange. I would cock my wrists so the right hand would hinge against the right forearm. The pro said that at the top the left wrist should be flat and inline with the left arm. Now I’m hitting it much more solidly, with a shorter more controlled swing. Now I’m just waiting for the next fault to creep in; -)
I’ve always felt that the golf swing is very hard to visualize from the eyes of the golfer. There are almost optical illusions where the club doesn’t seem to go where you think it is going. I’ve looked at many good swings on video from behind the golfer and have a fel for where the club should be in a good swing, but damn if the visual isn’t different from the eye of the golfer. Hint–keep the clubhead outside the hands longer.
a tune up is a good maintenance approach, it is good that you realized you had one due. good for you. the correction that took place, is one that can go to pot – quick. —– It never ceases to amaze me what I learn in a lesson.
m h o
that you were in a combat situation and you used your golfing ability to hit objects at the enemy?
No, I wouldn’t want to put myself at such a disadvantage in a life-or-death situation. But, you know they used to use the Old Course for archery practice, too. I’ve often wonder what golf would be like if it were played with bows and arrows. Fore! Ooops!
that you were in a combat situation and you used your golfing ability to hit objects at the enemy?
You mean at Miss Anne Thrope? Yes. Yes I have.
that you were in a combat situation and you used your golfing ability to hit objects at the enemy? You mean at Miss Anne Thrope? Yes. Yes I have.
LOL.
that you were in a combat situation and you used your golfing ability to hit objects at the enemy?
that you were in a combat situation and you used your golfing ability to hit objects at the enemy?
You mean Jackass style?? :) Cheers, Dave E
This guy has been on the driveling range to long! Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – that you were in a combat situation and you used your golfing ability to hit objects at the enemy?
This guy has been on the driveling range to long! Tom that you were in a combat situation and you used your golfing ability to hit objects at the enemy?
So the answer is no, right? I guess this is a desperate attempt to find something useful for the golf swing outside of golf. You can hit a burglar with a bat. Most of us play like it is a life or death situation. : -)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here he is, folks — the embodiment of the procotologist’s dream: I see two tournament scores there: in August. Larry the Liar is also stupid. Why make a claim, and then provide the url in which it is refuted? Whassa matta with this picture? Bet he didn’t graduate from Troll Prep with high honors. HI Peter, I am surprised that you have become another poor sick puppy. So RSG pretty much IT for you? Your whole life? What about girls? How about cars? But nooooo, your thrill is RSG and you are desperate to acquire validity for your miserable existence among the RSG regulars. You are so screwed up that you NEED to be accepted by what you know are disfunctionals. And to curry favor with that crowd, you run out ahead of the gang of sickos and attempt to prove your manhood by generating your own silly attack against the ONE guy who had the temerity to post sincere thoughts about the golf swing–to a "golf" forum, imagine that! Whew! And, like the present situation in Iraq, wherein all the world’s terrorists are gathering in one place, I am glad that all the golf discussion nutcases are gathered in RSG. Larry
Unfortunately, I deleted L’s response to a msg I sent him last week reminding him that he was a troll and wishing him well as he left RSG for the sixth or seventh time. This guy is the most pompous, self-righteous, condescending character I’ve seen posting here in quite awhile. Sure will miss him … (sigh) — Ron Blanchard http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=blanchardr *** Troll and SPAM intolerant *** "Golfers are meant to suffer." - Ian MacCallister
Geez, talk about "sick puppy". Poor Larry is beyond clueless. The sad thing is that it looks like his public news posts are trying to be "good" … he really lets his personality out on the private emails. But it sounds like a high school kid … girls + cars = life … I’m surprised he didn’t accuse you of being gay as well as sick. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here he is, folks — the embodiment of the procotologist’s dream: I see two tournament scores there: in August. Larry the Liar is also stupid. Why make a claim, and then provide the url in which it is refuted? Whassa matta with this picture? Bet he didn’t graduate from Troll Prep with high honors. HI Peter, I am surprised that you have become another poor sick puppy. So RSG pretty much IT for you? Your whole life? What about girls? How about cars? But nooooo, your thrill is RSG and you are desperate to acquire validity for your miserable existence among the RSG regulars. You are so screwed up that you NEED to be accepted by what you know are disfunctionals. And to curry favor with that crowd, you run out ahead of the gang of sickos and attempt to prove your manhood by generating your own silly attack against the ONE guy who had the temerity to post sincere thoughts about the golf swing–to a "golf" forum, imagine that! Whew! And, like the present situation in Iraq, wherein all the world’s terrorists are gathering in one place, I am glad that all the golf discussion nutcases are gathered in RSG. Larry
Wow, talk about sick, disfunctional, nutcases! So Larry, will you be joining us at RSG-Morgan Run? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here he is, folks — the embodiment of the procotologist’s dream: I see two tournament scores there: in August. Larry the Liar is also stupid. Why make a claim, and then provide the url in which it is refuted? Whassa matta with this picture? Bet he didn’t graduate from Troll Prep with high honors. HI Peter, I am surprised that you have become another poor sick puppy. So RSG pretty much IT for you? Your whole life? What about girls? How about cars? But nooooo, your thrill is RSG and you are desperate to acquire validity for your miserable existence among the RSG regulars. You are so screwed up that you NEED to be accepted by what you know are disfunctionals. And to curry favor with that crowd, you run out ahead of the gang of sickos and attempt to prove your manhood by generating your own silly attack against the ONE guy who had the temerity to post sincere thoughts about the golf swing–to a "golf" forum, imagine that! Whew! And, like the present situation in Iraq, wherein all the world’s terrorists are gathering in one place, I am glad that all the golf discussion nutcases are gathered in RSG. Larry
Here he is, folks — the embodiment of the procotologist’s dream: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I see two tournament scores there: in August. Larry the Liar is also stupid. Why make a claim, and then provide the url in which it is refuted? Whassa matta with this picture? Bet he didn’t graduate from Troll Prep with high honors. HI Peter, I am surprised that you have become another poor sick puppy. So RSG pretty much IT for you? Your whole life? What about girls? How about cars? But nooooo, your thrill is RSG and you are desperate to acquire validity for your miserable existence among the RSG regulars. You are so screwed up that you NEED to be accepted by what you know are disfunctionals. And to curry favor with that crowd, you run out ahead of the gang of sickos and attempt to prove your manhood by generating your own silly attack against the ONE guy who had the temerity to post sincere thoughts about the golf swing–to a "golf" forum, imagine that! Whew! And, like the present situation in Iraq, wherein all the world’s terrorists are gathering in one place, I am glad that all the golf discussion nutcases are gathered in RSG. Larry
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here he is, folks — the embodiment of the procotologist’s dream: I see two tournament scores there: in August. Larry the Liar is also stupid. Why make a claim, and then provide the url in which it is refuted? Whassa matta with this picture? Bet he didn’t graduate from Troll Prep with high honors. HI Peter, I am surprised that you have become another poor sick puppy. So RSG pretty much IT for you? Your whole life? What about girls? How about cars? But nooooo, your thrill is RSG and you are desperate to acquire validity for your miserable existence among the RSG regulars. You are so screwed up that you NEED to be accepted by what you know are disfunctionals. And to curry favor with that crowd, you run out ahead of the gang of sickos and attempt to prove your manhood by generating your own silly attack against the ONE guy who had the temerity to post sincere thoughts about the golf swing–to a "golf" forum, imagine that! Whew! And, like the present situation in Iraq, wherein all the world’s terrorists are gathering in one place, I am glad that all the golf discussion nutcases are gathered in RSG. Larry
Hello, my name is Dave. I’m a golf nutcase… LOL
After the debacle yesterday in the rain at Boulder Creek, I was ready to give up golf for the season. But the sun came out today and I was passing by the little 9 hole course, and I thought… well, let’s give it one more chance. I ended up playing 18 holes with an old guy from Canada named Bruce who was quite good, an 8 handicap. The round started off OK, with three pars in a row for both of us, but soon turned mediocre for me, with bad shots of all descriptions. I kept plugging away, though, taking it one shot at a time, and enjoying the company and great weather. In the second round, after suffering yet another double bogey at the hands of my nemesis, hole number #4, I stepped to the fifth tee and said "Well, let’s see if I can just SWING the club". And I did. I stroked one to the middle of the green about 180 yds away. I don’t think I’ve ever made a better golf swing. Full extension, and everything. Straight as an arrow. Got to green and found that I was about 20 feet short of the pin. Looked a lot closer from the tee. I said "OK, let’s make this putt." I read it breaking to the left, so I aimed right about three inches, gave it a stroke, and in it went! Hole 6 is a short par 4 of about 275 yds with the green guarded by water on three sides, including the front. I laid up with my 3W about 50 yds short, while Bruce almost drove the green, leaving his about 10 yds from the green right in the mouth, to the left of the water. My competitive juices were flowing. I stuck a lob wedge to 5 feet, and made the putt. Bruce made his par. We were having fun! Two bidies in a row! I had only done that once before. On the way to the seventh tee I said, "OK, now how about three in a row?" Maybe not the wisest thing to say. Hole 7 is another short par 4, but with a carry over water, a big bunker in front of the green, a tree guarding the green on the right, and a steep hill and OB behind the green. So I promptly push my tee shot under the trees over on the right. I mention it might be a little hard making my birdie from there. When I get to the ball, I see that the big tree next to the green was directly in line between my ball and the hole, and the other tree I was under was going to block any high shot. I would have to bump and run it up. But things weren’t so bad, I could see part of the green on the right, and if I used the slope of the green, maybe I could get it to curve back towards the flag. So I chip it, and the shot came off almost as planned. The ball ended up running about 10 ft past the hole, but on the same level of the green. When I got to the green, it was almost eerie. I could see the line of the putt and knew I would make it. It had about a 6 inch break, but the putt tracked perfectly and went right in the hole! Three birdies in a row! And that is when the magic ended. Doubled the next hole, but came back to par the final hole. I’ll admit that #6 and #7 aren’t really hard holes, but I’ll take my small pleasures when I can. The main thing, though, is that I felt that I got a glimpse of what is possible. If only I could keep in that zone for an entire round on a full-size course!
Congrats Bill. There are a lot of us that would like to experience this some time. I usually am lucky to make one every 18 or 36. Hope you make it four in a row soon!!!! Eric "the Hammer"
i know how great it feels to be on a birdie run…i once made 5 in a row. shot a mediocre 39 on the front and then went nuts and shot a 31 on the back with 6 birdies and a bogey. 2-under is still my best score to date. and you know what? golf sure is easy when you’re hitting the fairway, hitting your approaches to inside 3 feet and tapping them in. i felt like i was in a trance or something. hope i get that feeling again soon. congrats on your birdie run…keep after it. jk
Three birdies in a row!
After the debacle yesterday in the rain at Boulder Creek, I was ready to give up golf for the season. But the sun came out today and I was passing by the little 9 hole course, and I thought… well, let’s give it one more chance.
So what did you shoot? Never did 3 in a row, but did have 4 in 5 holes this past year. Sure helps the score a lot.
After the debacle yesterday in the rain at Boulder Creek, I was ready to give up golf for the season. But the sun came out today and I was passing by the little 9 hole course, and I thought… well, let’s give it one more chance. So what did you shoot? Never did 3 in a row, but did have 4 in 5 holes this past year. Sure helps the score a lot.
The fact that I didn’t mention it should give some clue. Sadly, even with the three birdies, it was no better than a mediocre round for me. Nowhere near a personal best. Went out today and played the same course again, and no birdies (although I missed several makable birdie putts), but I scored better. The three birdie day was the proverbial whipped cream on dogshit.
i know how great it feels to be on a birdie run…i once made 5 in a row. shot a mediocre 39 on the front and then went nuts and shot a 31 on the back with 6 birdies and a bogey. 2-under is still my best score to date. and you know what? golf sure is easy when you’re hitting the fairway, hitting your approaches to inside 3 feet and tapping them in. i felt like i was in a trance or something. hope i get that feeling again soon. congrats on your birdie run…keep after it. jk
Sounds boring. I’m in the mood to be bored by my game…
I am not sure why that matters?? But since you asked, as a lefty, my front leg is the right. FYI, I try to keep my postings mostly applicable to righties. We lefties are accustomed to converting golf instruction, but odds are you’re not.
Still there are some ambiguities when talking golf swings to people who don’t always know the nomenclature. For instance, when addressing the ball – is your ball in front or is the target in front? When you mention a front leg, it implies that the target is in front.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So Larry, this seems to be a little different than what Gary Sowinski teaches? In fact, this seems to be pretty much in line with Swing Like a Pro? On reflection, how do you feel about the statements you made the last time you were here – do they seem pretty idiotic now? Are there any that you would like to retract? I don’t think this is the real LLLarry. His latest post came from Google. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
Sure sounds like him, or a very good impersonation. Larry mentioned using google before.
I consider this a big pile of crap. I’ve had a number of lessons and we have never, not ever, in any lesson, talked about the "transition" as the key to the swing. Never. IMO, anyone who tells you it’s the "key" to the swing is someone who is clueless.
"The Big Shift The Transition is the most difficult movement to learn in the golf swing. Arduous as it may be, it is the key to becoming a single digit handicap. So it becomes a hurdle every serious golfer must eventually face in their development. And experience has shown us that it can be learned with a little patience and dedication. " The above is a cut and paste quote of Fred Griffin (of Model Golf). Pros teach the transition once a student progresses above the elementary level. If you have never heard of it, aapparently you have never quite got to that level. I strongly suggest you do a Google search on "the transition" and a little reading. Then apologize to the group for your ignorance. Larry
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider this a big pile of crap. I’ve had a number of lessons and we have never, not ever, in any lesson, talked about the "transition" as the key to the swing. Never. IMO, anyone who tells you it’s the "key" to the swing is someone who is clueless. "The Big Shift The Transition is the most difficult movement to learn in the golf swing. Arduous as it may be, it is the key to becoming a single digit handicap. So it becomes a hurdle every serious golfer must eventually face in their development. And experience has shown us that it can be learned with a little patience and dedication. " The above is a cut and paste quote of Fred Griffin (of Model Golf). Pros teach the transition once a student progresses above the elementary level. If you have never heard of it, aapparently you have never quite got to that level. I strongly suggest you do a Google search on "the transition" and a little reading. Then apologize to the group for your ignorance. Larry
Larry, my hdcp is 7.8. That is, in case you are numerically-challenged, a single-digit handicap. Now, I say that what you’ve said is crap. You quote something where the author says "This is the key to becoming a single-digit handicap." I’ve proven you wrong. Now, you can apologize. Mike PS: What’s your handicap? Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Even at the beginning? When he changed my grip and explained his understanding of the swing? No. Even w/ my OTT swing, he never mentioned that. My instructor says that posture and turn are important. I’ve asked him about things like weight transfer, and he doesn’t focus on it–it’ll come naturally when you do other things right. Mike
I agree with your last paragraph here, Mike. I find that when I make a good swing … especially with a longer iron … I’m able to hold my finish properly because everything came together as it should. However, if I ‘focus’ on weight transfer I only tend to introduce sway into my swing. I think if transition was the only needed ingredient for a good golf swing, Nick Price would certainly have a ‘worse’ swing than Ernie Els … Sergio’s would be worse than Couples’, etc. What’s truly needed is for each golfer to understand their OWN swing mechanics, and reproduce them on each swing. Must be why Furyk Sr. never tried to change Furyk Jr.’s swing! Me … I’m a struggling mid-80’s shooter. I used to carry a 15.x, but gave it up in favor of enjoying myself on those few occasions when I got to play. Worrying about numbers didn’t do it for me. I figure I’ve got 12 years left to retirement, and THEN I’ll worry about my scores! (the other) Larry
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even at the beginning? When he changed my grip and explained his understanding of the swing? No. Even w/ my OTT swing, he never mentioned that. My instructor says that posture and turn are important. I’ve asked him about things like weight transfer, and he doesn’t focus on it–it’ll come naturally when you do other things right. Mike I agree with your last paragraph here, Mike. I find that when I make a good swing … especially with a longer iron … I’m able to hold my finish properly because everything came together as it should. However, if I ‘focus’ on weight transfer I only tend to introduce sway into my swing. I think if transition was the only needed ingredient for a good golf swing, Nick Price would certainly have a ‘worse’ swing than Ernie Els … Sergio’s would be worse than Couples’, etc. What’s truly needed is for each golfer to understand their OWN swing mechanics, and reproduce them on each swing. Must be why Furyk Sr. never tried to change Furyk Jr.’s swing! Me … I’m a struggling mid-80’s shooter. I used to carry a 15.x, but gave it up in favor of enjoying myself on those few occasions when I got to play. Worrying about numbers didn’t do it for me. I figure I’ve got 12 years left to retirement, and THEN I’ll worry about my scores! (the other) Larry
One issue for a lot of people is whether they can play enough to learn a good swing. If you can’t get out a lot, then I don’t know that most people are likely to have much improvement. I suppose if they’re very athletic…perhaps. And maybe that’s why a lot of people want to believe there’s a big "secret" to the golf swing. They don’t have time/money to build one from the ground up, and therefore the only hope is some compensation, some tip which will allow them a major improvement in their swing. Sometimes I wonder if it’s like the people who play the lottery. They’ll never have the chance to really earn big money, so their only shot at it is to buy a lottery ticket (or a bunch) and hope. Golf tips, to me, seem like that. I have a relatively fresh memory of what it was like to be an 18 handicapper. I’d get the tip o’ the day, and apply it on the practice tee, and occasionally it would work for me. I remember thinking "So *that’s* what the answer is!" Problem is, I remember thinking that a lot of times. Invariably, I was wrong about it, of course. All the tips did was produce a compensation for something else I was doing, and while it worked for a bit, I’d find that compensation built upon compensation is a recipe for inconstency. Eventually, I saw the pattern. When I thought I had figured it out, I would think back to all the other times I’d thought that. And then realize that the chances this time was different were…low. That’s when I figured out the real secret, which is that there is no secret. This is one reason I don’t read golf magazines. I don’t want to see "How to hit it 20 yards further," "How to banish that slice forever," or "Spin the ball like a pro." Heck, a lot of the time, the "tips" in such magazines are contradictory. And I don’t usually read swing threads here for the same reason. I can’t recall ever getting any advice on the swing here that was a lasting improvement. Never. Might have happened–my memory isn’t perfect–but I can’t remember any of them. They’re always guesses, because A) the people who provide that advice haven’t seen my swing in its entirety, and B) most don’t know what they’re talking about. There are a few exceptions, of course–David Laville knows what he’s talking about wrt the swing, I think Brad Greer does, a few others. Even when I posted about my headcover drill, I tried to do it in such a way as to say "Here’s what helped me, here are the swing faults it is helping me to eradicate, and here are the benefits to it that I’ve found." But I promised nothing, and I sure as heck didn’t tell anyone it was the "secret" to anything. Know what? It sure works for me. But will it help *you*? I have no idea. I’m sure it depends on what your swing currently is like, and I’m in no way qualified to judge that. Even so, I’ll bet that most who tried it here (and a lot said "Wow" in response) won’t keep it up as I have over time. I have a kind of plan in mind right now regarding my improvement as a golfer. It involves two things, really: One is to learn a good, repeatable swing while I still have my physical faculties in place, a swing I can take into retirement (I’m 46). The other is to learn how to hit a draw reliably, because the fade I have as my standard ballflight will not produce the distance I’ll want when I’m 65 years old. I want to learn this stuff while I’m still young enough to enjoy it. :) Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The transition move is the secret of effortless power and accuracy. Learn this and be on your way to the best golf you could play. Larry (yes, I am back, at least temporarily) I consider this a big pile of crap. I’ve had a number of lessons and we have never, not ever, in any lesson, talked about the "transition" as the key to the swing. Never. IMO, anyone who tells you it’s the "key" to the swing is someone who is clueless. BTW, my current hdcp is 7.8. What’s yours, Larry? Gees Mike. 
I know you have this thing going with Larry.
It’s not larry per se. It’s people who are idiots. But a good transition is a very desireable trait in a golf swing.
Sure. But it is *not* the answer. Larry has had about ten secrets since he first started posting here (assuming this is he). When people keep changing their mind about what is "most important," the best thing you can do is bet the trend: Assume that sooner or later, something else will be "most important," and that their current "answer" will simply fall by the wayside. It is a key… maybe not THE ONE AND ONLY KEY, but definitely an important key.
Is it? Larry presents these things as if it’s all you need to do to golf well. He’s wrong. Maybe your instructor never mentioned transition because you already did it right?
Even at the beginning? When he changed my grip and explained his understanding of the swing? No. Even w/ my OTT swing, he never mentioned that. My instructor says that posture and turn are important. I’ve asked him about things like weight transfer, and he doesn’t focus on it–it’ll come naturally when you do other things right. IMO, when people focus on things like this, they become lost in the forest. You build a swing by compiling components that work together. Focusing on only one thing as if it’s the "answer" is simply asking for a swing that needs other compensations to perform at all–and perform in a mediocre fashion. Meanwhile, what I’ve always been amused by is Larry’s insistence on giving lessons when he himself cannot reach what most would consider a capable level of golfing. The blind leading the blind? You bet! Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Hi Bill and Mike, You need to complete your transition. You must hit the ball when weight completely transferred to the front leg–with knee essentially straight. Hip turn and etc. will happen naturally and so will the picture followthrough. Larry
My suggestion to Bill and Mike is to not read anything Larry tells you about the swing. He’s largely clueless about the swing, and assumes that one size fits all. In that, of course, is all the evidence you need that he’s clueless. Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
So Larry, this seems to be a little different than what Gary Sowinski teaches? In fact, this seems to be pretty much in line with Swing Like a Pro? On reflection, how do you feel about the statements you made the last time you were here – do they seem pretty idiotic now? Are there any that you would like to retract?
I don’t think this is the real LLLarry. His latest post came from Google. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs I have certtainly had this problem. Last time out I finished more swings when my swing thought was initiating the downswing with the left shoulder. I think this helps somewhat against coming over the top. I think I have swaed off some swings – not fifnshed them because I sensed that to finish it would result in a huge roping pull. B. J. Wilkinson Hi Mike and B.J. Well, your problem is what about 99% of golfers, and essentially ALL double digit and above handicap golfers experience every day and will until they get good help. The inability to make a full followthrough is only a symptom. First they do not make a full turn back, but more importantly, they do not complete the "transition" move onto their front foot while still coiled– exactly like we do in a baseball swing as we see the pitcher release the ball. A big full followthrough like we see the pros on TV is automatic when you transition up to your front leg BEFORE your arms swing down. Lessons from a good pro are the best method. Up until a month or so ago, I was still struggling and searching, grasping at straws, going from pro to pro, reading everything, etc. I was not making progress UNTIL I recently completed 4 hours with Jay Lumpkin. I plan to take at least that many more lessons with this pro as I unlearn old habits and relearn a real golf swing. Jay was a touring pro in the 80’s. Jay’s father is Jack Lumpkin, you see him often on The Golf Channel. They taught Davis Love and many other currently touring pros– worked with Jim Flick and Bob Toski, etc. This is the real thing– and NOT cheap, but worth it. I will try to share some of what I am learning. To learn the transition, any good teacher will first ensure your grip and setup are correct so that you can get to the top of your swing in good position–stationary with left arm horizontal and club vertical. Spine still set into the correct pivot angle (you are not standing up straight). Your right shoulder is behind the ball. From there you should be able to lift your left foot, tap it against your right foot, step forward with your left to the address position WHILE lifting the club to the very top. It is extremely important that the arms do NOT start down until your weight is fully on your left leg, left knee essentially straight. Your hips will turn to the target AND pull your torso around which pulls your arms down, and if your grip is correct and light pressure, the club "flails" through like popping a whip. The step forward and hips turning back initiate the swing. A full followthrough is almost automatic as you end up with weight fully on your left, your right shoe showing cleats behind. This is the "step and go" drill as seen in Model Golf. You simply can’t hope to play low handicap golf without a solid transition in your swing. When your swing includes a correct transition, the club impacts the ball at the same angle every time. The hinge point is stable over the ball like the mechanical swing machine. Without a solid transition we sometimes hit off the back foot, sometimes off both feet, sometimes off your front foot, but never predictible enough to be accurate. That is high handicap golf. The transition move is the secret of effortless power and accuracy. Learn this and be on your way to the best golf you could play. Larry (yes, I am back, at least temporarily) I consider this a big pile of crap. I’ve had a number of lessons and we have never, not ever, in any lesson, talked about the "transition" as the key to the swing. Never. IMO, anyone who tells you it’s the "key" to the swing is someone who is clueless. BTW, my current hdcp is 7.8. What’s yours, Larry?
Gees Mike. I know you have this thing going with Larry. But a good transition is a very desireable trait in a golf swing. It is a key… maybe not THE ONE AND ONLY KEY, but definitely an important key. Maybe your instructor never mentioned transition because you already did it right?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs I have certtainly had this problem. Last time out I finished more swings when my swing thought was initiating the downswing with the left shoulder. I think this helps somewhat against coming over the top. I think I have swaed off some swings – not fifnshed them because I sensed that to finish it would result in a huge roping pull. B. J. Wilkinson Hi Mike and B.J. Well, your problem is what about 99% of golfers, and essentially ALL double digit and above handicap golfers experience every day and will until they get good help. The inability to make a full followthrough is only a symptom. First they do not make a full turn back, but more importantly, they do not complete the "transition" move onto their front foot while still coiled– exactly like we do in a baseball swing as we see the pitcher release the ball. A big full followthrough like we see the pros on TV is automatic when you transition up to your front leg BEFORE your arms swing down. Lessons from a good pro are the best method. Up until a month or so ago, I was still struggling and searching, grasping at straws, going from pro to pro, reading everything, etc. I was not making progress UNTIL I recently completed 4 hours with Jay Lumpkin. I plan to take at least that many more lessons with this pro as I unlearn old habits and relearn a real golf swing. Jay was a touring pro in the 80’s. Jay’s father is Jack Lumpkin, you see him often on The Golf Channel. They taught Davis Love and many other currently touring pros– worked with Jim Flick and Bob Toski, etc. This is the real thing– and NOT cheap, but worth it. I will try to share some of what I am learning. To learn the transition, any good teacher will first ensure your grip and setup are correct so that you can get to the top of your swing in good position–stationary with left arm horizontal and club vertical. Spine still set into the correct pivot angle (you are not standing up straight). Your right shoulder is behind the ball. From there you should be able to lift your left foot, tap it against your right foot, step forward with your left to the address position WHILE lifting the club to the very top. It is extremely important that the arms do NOT start down until your weight is fully on your left leg, left knee essentially straight. Your hips will turn to the target AND pull your torso around which pulls your arms down, and if your grip is correct and light pressure, the club "flails" through like popping a whip. The step forward and hips turning back initiate the swing. A full followthrough is almost automatic as you end up with weight fully on your left, your right shoe showing cleats behind. This is the "step and go" drill as seen in Model Golf. You simply can’t hope to play low handicap golf without a solid transition in your swing. When your swing includes a correct transition, the club impacts the ball at the same angle every time. The hinge point is stable over the ball like the mechanical swing machine. Without a solid transition we sometimes hit off the back foot, sometimes off both feet, sometimes off your front foot, but never predictible enough to be accurate. That is high handicap golf. The transition move is the secret of effortless power and accuracy. Learn this and be on your way to the best golf you could play. Larry (yes, I am back, at least temporarily)
I consider this a big pile of crap. I’ve had a number of lessons and we have never, not ever, in any lesson, talked about the "transition" as the key to the swing. Never. IMO, anyone who tells you it’s the "key" to the swing is someone who is clueless. BTW, my current hdcp is 7.8. What’s yours, Larry? Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs
Well, the only thing I can tell you is that a full follow-through is only the RESULT of a good swing. Forcing it after impact does nothing at all. You are on the right track, though. You want to find a swing that leaves you in a good balanced follow-through position. It’s something I need to work on, too. One suggestion I’ve seen is to start in that position and swing backwards, to see what you have to go through to get there, and just slowly swing from top of the backswing to the follow-through and back and forth with no ball.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You simply can’t hope to play low handicap golf without a solid transition in your swing. When your swing includes a correct transition, the club impacts the ball at the same angle every time. The hinge point is stable over the ball like the mechanical swing machine. Without a solid transition we sometimes hit off the back foot, sometimes off both feet, sometimes off your front foot, but never predictible enough to be accurate. That is high handicap golf. The transition move is the secret of effortless power and accuracy. Learn this and be on your way to the best golf you could play. Larry (yes, I am back, at least temporarily)
So Larry, this seems to be a little different than what Gary Sowinski teaches? In fact, this seems to be pretty much in line with Swing Like a Pro? On reflection, how do you feel about the statements you made the last time you were here – do they seem pretty idiotic now? Are there any that you would like to retract?
Larry, Which leg is your front leg – left or right?
Hi B.J. I am not sure why that matters?? But since you asked, as a lefty, my front leg is the right. FYI, I try to keep my postings mostly applicable to righties. We lefties are accustomed to converting golf instruction, but odds are you’re not. A very very good way to practice this drill is to swing your club horizontally like a baseball bat, in slow motion, step forward like batters do, really get the feeling of letting the bat lag behind your hands–pretend it is heavy! Then take your setup and swing exactly like that! Step through the swing, push yourself up from your back foot to up beside the ball– and be amazed at how well you turn back and turn through. When you move forward powerfully you have no choice but to trap the ball against the ground. And that works great because golf irons and fairway woods were designed to trap the ball off the turf–NOT to sweep or clip it off. Hit down on it and it will just soar. larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – B. J. Wilkinson I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs I have certtainly had this problem. Last time out I finished more swings when my swing thought was initiating the downswing with the left shoulder. I think this helps somewhat against coming over the top. I think I have swaed off some swings – not fifnshed them because I sensed that to finish it would result in a huge roping pull. B. J. Wilkinson Hi Mike and B.J. Well, your problem is what about 99% of golfers, and essentially ALL double digit and above handicap golfers experience every day and will until they get good help. The inability to make a full followthrough is only a symptom. First they do not make a full turn back, but more importantly, they do not complete the "transition" move onto their front foot while still coiled– exactly like we do in a baseball swing as we see the pitcher release the ball. A big full followthrough like we see the pros on TV is automatic when you transition up to your front leg BEFORE your arms swing down. Lessons from a good pro are the best method. Up until a month or so ago, I was still struggling and searching, grasping at straws, going from pro to pro, reading everything, etc. I was not making progress UNTIL I recently completed 4 hours with Jay Lumpkin. I plan to take at least that many more lessons with this pro as I unlearn old habits and relearn a real golf swing. Jay was a touring pro in the 80’s. Jay’s father is Jack Lumpkin, you see him often on The Golf Channel. They taught Davis Love and many other currently touring pros– worked with Jim Flick and Bob Toski, etc. This is the real thing– and NOT cheap, but worth it. I will try to share some of what I am learning. To learn the transition, any good teacher will first ensure your grip and setup are correct so that you can get to the top of your swing in good position–stationary with left arm horizontal and club vertical. Spine still set into the correct pivot angle (you are not standing up straight). Your right shoulder is behind the ball. From there you should be able to lift your left foot, tap it against your right foot, step forward with your left to the address position WHILE lifting the club to the very top. It is extremely important that the arms do NOT start down until your weight is fully on your left leg, left knee essentially straight. Your hips will turn to the target AND pull your torso around which pulls your arms down, and if your grip is correct and light pressure, the club "flails" through like popping a whip. The step forward and hips turning back initiate the swing. A full followthrough is almost automatic as you end up with weight fully on your left, your right shoe showing cleats behind. This is the "step and go" drill as seen in Model Golf. You simply can’t hope to play low handicap golf without a solid transition in your swing. When your swing includes a correct transition, the club impacts the ball at the same angle every time. The hinge point is stable over the ball like the mechanical swing machine. Without a solid transition we sometimes hit off the back foot, sometimes off both feet, sometimes off your front foot, but never predictible enough to be accurate. That is high handicap golf. The transition move is the secret of effortless power and accuracy. Learn this and be on your way to the best golf you could play. Larry (yes, I am back, at least temporarily)
I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs
Like you, I tried the swing through the ball technique. It didn’t work at first, but I stuck with it because I was determined to figure out why, really *why*, that I could not make my real swing feel exactly the same as my practice swing. It turned out to be more than a key or a Jedi mind trick. The better part of a summer later, after retooling my backswing path, and learning the patience to get ‘all the way, every time’ to the top, deliberately, without tossing or bouncing the club, came my first true swing. Basically I let fly and the finish was an unexpected slap on my backside with my driver. I’m still interested to know any advice that’s quicker, but I wouldn’t trade the experience. -Gray
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs I have certtainly had this problem. Last time out I finished more swings when my swing thought was initiating the downswing with the left shoulder. I think this helps somewhat against coming over the top. I think I have swaed off some swings – not fifnshed them because I sensed that to finish it would result in a huge roping pull. B. J. Wilkinson
Hi Mike and B.J. Well, your problem is what about 99% of golfers, and essentially ALL double digit and above handicap golfers experience every day and will until they get good help. The inability to make a full followthrough is only a symptom. First they do not make a full turn back, but more importantly, they do not complete the "transition" move onto their front foot while still coiled– exactly like we do in a baseball swing as we see the pitcher release the ball. A big full followthrough like we see the pros on TV is automatic when you transition up to your front leg BEFORE your arms swing down. Lessons from a good pro are the best method. Up until a month or so ago, I was still struggling and searching, grasping at straws, going from pro to pro, reading everything, etc. I was not making progress UNTIL I recently completed 4 hours with Jay Lumpkin. I plan to take at least that many more lessons with this pro as I unlearn old habits and relearn a real golf swing. Jay was a touring pro in the 80’s. Jay’s father is Jack Lumpkin, you see him often on The Golf Channel. They taught Davis Love and many other currently touring pros– worked with Jim Flick and Bob Toski, etc. This is the real thing– and NOT cheap, but worth it. I will try to share some of what I am learning. To learn the transition, any good teacher will first ensure your grip and setup are correct so that you can get to the top of your swing in good position–stationary with left arm horizontal and club vertical. Spine still set into the correct pivot angle (you are not standing up straight). Your right shoulder is behind the ball. From there you should be able to lift your left foot, tap it against your right foot, step forward with your left to the address position WHILE lifting the club to the very top. It is extremely important that the arms do NOT start down until your weight is fully on your left leg, left knee essentially straight. Your hips will turn to the target AND pull your torso around which pulls your arms down, and if your grip is correct and light pressure, the club "flails" through like popping a whip. The step forward and hips turning back initiate the swing. A full followthrough is almost automatic as you end up with weight fully on your left, your right shoe showing cleats behind. This is the "step and go" drill as seen in Model Golf. You simply can’t hope to play low handicap golf without a solid transition in your swing. When your swing includes a correct transition, the club impacts the ball at the same angle every time. The hinge point is stable over the ball like the mechanical swing machine. Without a solid transition we sometimes hit off the back foot, sometimes off both feet, sometimes off your front foot, but never predictible enough to be accurate. That is high handicap golf. The transition move is the secret of effortless power and accuracy. Learn this and be on your way to the best golf you could play. Larry (yes, I am back, at least temporarily)
Hi Bill and Mike, You need to complete your transition. You must hit the ball when weight completely transferred to the front leg–with knee essentially straight. Hip turn and etc. will happen naturally and so will the picture followthrough. Larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have the same problem myself (well, my practise wing is proably not perfect.) Anyway, two drills which might help are: Club covers under armpits and split grip (several inches between hands). I find both drills help me make full turn, and place less emphasis on shoulders, more on body turn. Hope this helps, and good luck. I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs
Larry, Which leg is your front leg – left or right? B. J. Wilkinson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs I have certtainly had this problem. Last time out I finished more swings when my swing thought was initiating the downswing with the left shoulder. I think this helps somewhat against coming over the top. I think I have swaed off some swings – not fifnshed them because I sensed that to finish it would result in a huge roping pull. B. J. Wilkinson Hi Mike and B.J. Well, your problem is what about 99% of golfers, and essentially ALL double digit and above handicap golfers experience every day and will until they get good help. The inability to make a full followthrough is only a symptom. First they do not make a full turn back, but more importantly, they do not complete the "transition" move onto their front foot while still coiled– exactly like we do in a baseball swing as we see the pitcher release the ball. A big full followthrough like we see the pros on TV is automatic when you transition up to your front leg BEFORE your arms swing down. Lessons from a good pro are the best method. Up until a month or so ago, I was still struggling and searching, grasping at straws, going from pro to pro, reading everything, etc. I was not making progress UNTIL I recently completed 4 hours with Jay Lumpkin. I plan to take at least that many more lessons with this pro as I unlearn old habits and relearn a real golf swing. Jay was a touring pro in the 80’s. Jay’s father is Jack Lumpkin, you see him often on The Golf Channel. They taught Davis Love and many other currently touring pros– worked with Jim Flick and Bob Toski, etc. This is the real thing– and NOT cheap, but worth it. I will try to share some of what I am learning. To learn the transition, any good teacher will first ensure your grip and setup are correct so that you can get to the top of your swing in good position–stationary with left arm horizontal and club vertical. Spine still set into the correct pivot angle (you are not standing up straight). Your right shoulder is behind the ball. From there you should be able to lift your left foot, tap it against your right foot, step forward with your left to the address position WHILE lifting the club to the very top. It is extremely important that the arms do NOT start down until your weight is fully on your left leg, left knee essentially straight. Your hips will turn to the target AND pull your torso around which pulls your arms down, and if your grip is correct and light pressure, the club "flails" through like popping a whip. The step forward and hips turning back initiate the swing. A full followthrough is almost automatic as you end up with weight fully on your left, your right shoe showing cleats behind. This is the "step and go" drill as seen in Model Golf. You simply can’t hope to play low handicap golf without a solid transition in your swing. When your swing includes a correct transition, the club impacts the ball at the same angle every time. The hinge point is stable over the ball like the mechanical swing machine. Without a solid transition we sometimes hit off the back foot, sometimes off both feet, sometimes off your front foot, but never predictible enough to be accurate. That is high handicap golf. The transition move is the secret of effortless power and accuracy. Learn this and be on your way to the best golf you could play. Larry (yes, I am back, at least temporarily)
Yeah, golf isn’t the only thing you’re losing penetration in, and not finishing. Sincerely, The Mrs.
I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs
So many people can execute a perfect swing without a ball. I saw a tip somewhere for this. You imagine that the ball and clubface are magnetic, so that the ball sticks to the clubface at address and remains there throughout the swing and all you have to think about is flipping it off in the release. Haven’t tried it though, that’s not one of my problems
Have the same problem myself (well, my practise wing is proably not perfect.) Anyway, two drills which might help are: Club covers under armpits and split grip (several inches between hands). I find both drills help me make full turn, and place less emphasis on shoulders, more on body turn. Hope this helps, and good luck.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs
I have certtainly had this problem. Last time out I finished more swings when my swing thought was initiating the downswing with the left shoulder. I think this helps somewhat against coming over the top. I think I have swaed off some swings – not fifnshed them because I sensed that to finish it would result in a huge roping pull. B. J. Wilkinson
I too was affected with this same problem a while back…. I am a fair golfer, mid 80’s tomid 90’s … and lost all my rhythym a while back.. I went to an older pro and took about 20 minutes to work this out… start with a preshot routine to a finish position. create 3 checks for yourself start , at impact, and finish… start should be left arm extended butt of the club pointing straight to the ground .. hands above your head. turn your hips and let the club fall… , impact.. a v with the hands leading in front of the ball. and finish which you and i had trouble on .. k position of the legs. right shoulder pointing at the target and wrist turned over .. try ending with the club lying over your left shoulder then look down each time to check the rest of your position.. slow your backswing and speed down to a comfortable fluid rhythym.. and swing the same each time. hope this helps works for me.. but everyones swing is different.. btw relax … best thig the guy taught me in 30 minutes .. hit em well..
I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I seem to be going through a frustrating time – myy practice swing is fine and my ball striking is OK but I just seem incapable of regularly achieving a full follow through – it feels like I’m just hitting at the ball with arms and shoulders rather than swinging through it – as a result I’m losing distance and penetration. I’ve tried most things i.e. regular lessons with my pro, really relaxing arms and shoulders, more lower body rotation in downswing, trying to treat ball as something in swing path rather than hitting at it, but I just can’t achieve any consistency. Some days my swing feels fine but most times not. Any ideas? Mike Isaacs
Mike, You’ve just hit on my biggest swing problem! I thought it was only me! Sometimes I feel like Kevin Costner in Tin Cup, "I never finish anything". Here’s what’s helping me, for what it’s worth: At the range, I practice a good portion of my shots by: – taking the club to the halfway back position (waist high, or so) – swinging all the way through to a full finish I also do this in my pre-shot routine if I feel that the tendency is creeping back into my game. For me, it’s beginning to help. My brother’s a teaching pro, and told me once, "You know, you have the most beautiful practice swing I’ve ever seen … how in the world to you screw it up so bad in ten seconds?!" 8^) Larry
So did you get a job as an asst pro while still shooting in the 100’s?
No, I didn’t even think about getting an assistant pro job until I passed the PAT. me
So did you get a job as an asst pro while still shooting in the 100’s? No, I didn’t even think about getting an assistant pro job until I passed the PAT. me
thanks for the answers and information so far!!! What was your training schedule like? How often did you take lessons. How much did you practice during the week and how many times did you play? Any books that were especially helpful? Thanks!!
thanks for the answers and information so far!!! What was your training schedule like? How often did you take lessons. How much did you practice during the week and how many times did you play? Any books that were especially helpful?
I started out with a series of 4 half hour lessons (one per week), then played for two months, then another series of four, then played for two months, wash, rinse and repeat. All during this time I practiced at the range three times a week (mostly during lunch hour) and played 9 holes twice a week after work. As for books, I really liked Dave Pelz’s Short Game and Putting bibles and Dr. Bob Rotella’s "Golf is Not a Game of Perfect". (Especially the latter one). What would I change if I had to do it over again knowing what I know now? Definately more emphasis on learning and practicing my short game (pitching, chipping and putting) and learning how to accept my bad shots and move on. me
Also, I was the fastest learner my pro ever had having reached a single digit handicap (9hcp) in exactly 1 year.
That’s obscene!! :-) Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Well, at least Brett admits that his degree is total B.S.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One encouraging thing I saw was that Dave Pelz was once a scientist at NASA. And now he is able to teach and run the school he does. So if he can do something like he’s done, hopefully I can do something on a lesser scale and be successful and happy in the field too. Well, you’re in luck, my head Pro that I work for says the PGA is changing their rules on becoming a golf pro next year. Starting in 2004 you will no longer be required to work as an assistant pro somewhere to enter the GPTP. This means you could teach math and be a golf coach at the same time you persue your PGA credentials… One of the previous posts in this thread says he did it in about 4 years time, which means it does seem possible. Let me clarify this, what I did was go from a 100’s shooter to passing the PAT in 4 years. I enter the GPTP on nov. the 2nd. and will still have about 2 years to complete the GPTP to get my PGA credentials. Also, I was the fastest learner my pro ever had having reached a single digit handicap (9hcp) in exactly 1 year. me
So did you get a job as an asst pro while still shooting in the 100’s?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might think about getting a job teaching math in a public school / college with a strong golf program, or teach math , and moonlight at a golf course where a pro golfer is instrumental in it’s operation. Your age, and present qualification in golf, might be a factor, to some extent, in attaining your "dream." Good luck, v e —- Hello, I have recently graduated from college with a B.S. degree in math and I’ve often wanted to be able to pursue some kind of a career in the golf industry. Thanks for the comment. I’ve thought about that exact thing alot. My wife is also a teacher and it would be great to have similar schedules. Part of me thinks that the noteriety of being a "pga professional" would be great. But the schedule and work load of a club pro seem to take a toll on the family life or at least threaten to. And being a teacher and a golf coach would be a heck of a great way to make an impact on people. One encouraging thing I saw was that Dave Pelz was once a scientist at NASA. And now he is able to teach and run the school he does. So if he can do something like he’s done, hopefully I can do something on a lesser scale and be successful and happy in the field too. One of the previous posts in this thread says he did it in about 4 years time, which means it does seem possible.
What Dave Pelz did was to begin by collecting tons of information on players shots. He did this for several years. Because of his scientific background, and his interest in golf, he was able to take the information collected and analyse it in ways that had not been done with any meaningful results, that could be verified and repeated. Then he began sharing his information with the golfers that he was tracking. Once they saw the information, they wanted to learn how to overcome the shortcomings in their game that the statistics showed were there. That’s how he started his school. Don’t simply think that by starting a school you will be as successful as Pelz in 4 or 5 years. You must have something to differentiate your school and teaching, as well as be effective at teaching, in order to distinguish yourself from every other golf school. I still have time to decide and let the ideas develop. I just finished an internship in an IT department of a large company and am working hard to find a full-time job in that field. So I have that as a priority before I pursue my dream. Thanks again for the thougts.
Rick
You can do it. Don’t let anybody tell you otherwise. Practice, a lot. tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I have recently graduated from college with a B.S. degree in math and I’ve often wanted to be able to pursue some kind of a career in the golf industry. In my dreams it would be to be able to be a PGA professional (not golfing competitively on the Tour). Or to pass the PAT, complete the professional course work to be a pga professional. Then with a solid knowledge of the swing, of equipment and other aspects of the industry, to pursue something else in the golf industry. My main question for you is whether or not this is a realistic venture for me to pursue, considering my current skill level and other circumstances in my life. Any input, suggestions or thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated. I’ve looked at the requirements on-line and it talks about the PAT as the first step in being able to qualify for the rest of the program for a pga professional. In regards to my skill level, I consistently shoot around 95. To describe myself physically, I am 32 years old, I am fairly athletic and weigh 170. Also, I am 5′9" tall. I recently learned the beginning basics of how to fade and draw a ball. I believe I would do good in a golf/people enviroment. I am actually more interested in teaching the golf swing to people and/or helping with the equipment aspect of the business. It seems this would require that I be able to learn and implement the fundamentals in my own game first and that is the part that I would need the training on my own of my golf swing to get my skill level to where I could pass the PAT. My basic question is: is this a realistic goal? To shoot for the goal of qualifying for the PGA professional training program or would it be more realistic to pursue something else related to the golf industry. My main dream and question is if I could feesibly practice and play consistently for the a few years, see enough improvement in my skill level to pass the PAT and then complete the training for a pga professional. Thanks again for any help/thoughts in regards to this.
One encouraging thing I saw was that Dave Pelz was once a scientist at NASA. And now he is able to teach and run the school he does. So if he can do something like he’s done, hopefully I can do something on a lesser scale and be successful and happy in the field too.
Well, you’re in luck, my head Pro that I work for says the PGA is changing their rules on becoming a golf pro next year. Starting in 2004 you will no longer be required to work as an assistant pro somewhere to enter the GPTP. This means you could teach math and be a golf coach at the same time you persue your PGA credentials… One of the previous posts in this thread says he did it in about 4 years time, which means it does seem possible.
Let me clarify this, what I did was go from a 100’s shooter to passing the PAT in 4 years. I enter the GPTP on nov. the 2nd. and will still have about 2 years to complete the GPTP to get my PGA credentials. Also, I was the fastest learner my pro ever had having reached a single digit handicap (9hcp) in exactly 1 year. me
Change your name to Butch Harmon… your golden….
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might think about getting a job teaching math in a public school / college with a strong golf program, or teach math , and moonlight at a golf course where a pro golfer is instrumental in it’s operation. Your age, and present qualification in golf, might be a factor, to some extent, in attaining your "dream." Good luck, v e —- Hello, I have recently graduated from college with a B.S. degree in math and I’ve often wanted to be able to pursue some kind of a career in the golf industry.
Thanks for the comment. I’ve thought about that exact thing alot. My wife is also a teacher and it would be great to have similar schedules. Part of me thinks that the noteriety of being a "pga professional" would be great. But the schedule and work load of a club pro seem to take a toll on the family life or at least threaten to. And being a teacher and a golf coach would be a heck of a great way to make an impact on people. One encouraging thing I saw was that Dave Pelz was once a scientist at NASA. And now he is able to teach and run the school he does. So if he can do something like he’s done, hopefully I can do something on a lesser scale and be successful and happy in the field too. One of the previous posts in this thread says he did it in about 4 years time, which means it does seem possible. I still have time to decide and let the ideas develop. I just finished an internship in an IT department of a large company and am working hard to find a full-time job in that field. So I have that as a priority before I pursue my dream. Thanks again for the thougts.
No.
You might think about getting a job teaching math in a public school / college with a strong golf program, or teach math , and moonlight at a golf course where a pro golfer is instrumental in it’s operation. Your age, and present qualification in golf, might be a factor, to some extent, in attaining your "dream." Good luck, v
My question to you is: Who swings the club on ONE plane throught his/her whole swing? I think Ben Hogan came the closest, and hence is regarded as the best ballstriker ever by many. The reason: his swing was flat and his right aupper arm stayed close to his body throughout his swing.
??? Page 88, 5 Lessons: " The plane for the downswing is inclined at a shallower angle than the plane of the backswing, and it’s lateral axis points slightly to the right of the golfer’s target." He tried to tell us something in his book, but then along came Jack and his lessons have been all but forgotten to modern teachers.
Apparently so.
How about Jack or Tiger.
Um….. nope.
My question to you is: Who swings the club on ONE plane throught his/her whole swing? I think Ben Hogan came the closest, and hence is regarded as the best ballstriker ever by many. The reason: his swing was flat and his right aupper arm stayed close to his body throughout his swing. He tried to tell us something in his book, but then along came Jack and his lessons have been all but forgotten to modern teachers.
Not exactly. Hogan was a pioneer. He became a great ballstriker on his own. But he learned before video and a lot of pictures, and without a teacher watching him. He learned from "within", while virtually all of us now get our feedback from "outside". The bottom line is that Hogan was great, but he didn’t actually do what he felt or thought he was doing. Read Leadbetter’s analysis of Hogan’s book.
My question to you is: Who swings the club on ONE plane throught his/her whole swing? I think Ben Hogan came the closest, and hence is regarded as the best ballstriker ever by many. The reason: his swing was flat and his right aupper arm stayed close to his body throughout his swing. He tried to tell us something in his book, but then along came Jack and his lessons have been all but forgotten to modern teachers.
You kidding? Making this shit up as you go? Hogan had a single axis? Jack ruined Hogan’s message? Hogan’s messages have been forgotten? You for real?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My question to you is: Who swings the club on ONE plane throught his/her whole swing? I think Ben Hogan came the closest, and hence is regarded as the best ballstriker ever by many. The reason: his swing was flat and his right aupper arm stayed close to his body throughout his swing. He tried to tell us something in his book, but then along came Jack and his lessons have been all but forgotten to modern teachers. You kidding? Making this shit up as you go? Hogan had a single axis? Jack ruined Hogan’s message? Hogan’s messages have been forgotten? You for real?
I would say Moe Norman is probably closest to a single axis swing…but not really a single axis swing, as it is probably physically inpossible. Interesting that "great putting" seems to suggest a "swinging gate" kind of putting style (continuous change in plane, as in a real golf swing) and turns around and advocates a single axis for the real swing. This guy must really get his monies worth on the golf course! Uses them there striped balls; 40 for $4.00, cheapest balls in town so’s it don’t cost too much losin’ all them there balls on the course!! — RSG Masters 2004 pre-preliminary format http://home.att.net/~frostback2002 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=frostback "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are" Joseph Campbell
In article Yes, because numerous people do swing on one plane. Name one.
I think it’s a trick question, it’s preferable to swing on two planes. The plane shifts slightly on the downswing as per Ben Hogan. But Earnie Ells, Annika Sorenstam, David Toms and Davis Love all have great on plane swings and they’re pretty good. . .
Yes it can. Some people do and some people don’t. Just look at the pros. How many of you believe that the club CAN be swung on ONE, single plane throughout the duration of the whole golf swing (from takeaway to finish)? If yes, why? If no, why? A. Ragland
My question to you is: Who swings the club on ONE plane throught his/her whole swing?
My question to you is: Who swings the club on ONE plane throught his/her whole swing?
I think Ben Hogan came the closest, and hence is regarded as the best ballstriker ever by many. The reason: his swing was flat and his right aupper arm stayed close to his body throughout his swing. He tried to tell us something in his book, but then along came Jack and his lessons have been all but forgotten to modern teachers. Short putting is a target game, so why don’t we play it like one? www.targetputting.com
How about Jack or Tiger.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, because numerous people do swing on one plane. Name one.
How about Jack or Tiger.
Great players that moved the club through multiple planes as they elevated the club. Tiger is very much what is called "On-Plane". Tiger is *not* on One Plane. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, because numerous people do swing on one plane. Name one.
Yes, because numerous people do swing on one plane.
Name one.
Yes, because numerous people do swing on one plane. If you hit the point you address, you have to have swung on one plane. Really? Then please xpalin Jim Furyk? 
Didn’t he win an important tournament or something this year? Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Yes, because numerous people do swing on one plane. If you hit the point you address, you have to have swung on one plane.
That’s nonsense. When one takes the club back upright, but comes down at impact from the inside, it’s not 1 plane.
Yes, because numerous people do swing on one plane.
Are they members of Club Med?
Yes, because numerous people do swing on one plane. If you hit the point you address, you have to have swung on one plane. That’s nonsense. When one takes the club back upright, but comes down at impact from the inside, it’s not 1 plane.
It’s possible to swing the club back and through in one plane. That would be keeping the hands at the same height back and forth. It’s just that once the club *elevates*, it must plane shift.
How many of you believe that the club CAN be swung on ONE, single plane throughout the duration of the whole golf swing (from takeaway to finish)? If yes, why? If no, why? A. Ragland
How many of you believe that the club CAN be swung on ONE, single plane throughout the duration of the whole golf swing (from takeaway to finish)?
I do not believe it is ever swung on one continueous plane: however, a good golfer returns it to the same plane it started out on, AT IMPACT.
Yes, because numerous people do swing on one plane. If you hit the point you address, you have to have swung on one plane. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many of you believe that the club CAN be swung on ONE, single plane throughout the duration of the whole golf swing (from takeaway to finish)? If yes, why? If no, why? A. Ragland
How many of you believe that the club CAN be swung on ONE, single plane throughout the duration of the whole golf swing (from takeaway to finish)? If yes, why? If no, why? A. Ragland
The only was to swing on a single plane would be to make a very crappy and inefficient golf swing.
The only was to swing on a single plane would be to make a very crappy and inefficient golf swing.
David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
How many of you believe that the club CAN be swung on ONE, single plane throughout the duration of the whole golf swing (from takeaway to finish)? If yes, why?
You can do anything in the golf swing if you practice long and hard enough. If no, why?
Because the lie of the club (plane) at address and impact does not support the plane at the top of the golf swing so there has to be a plane shift. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
Yes it can. Some people do and some people don’t. Just look at the pros.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many of you believe that the club CAN be swung on ONE, single plane throughout the duration of the whole golf swing (from takeaway to finish)? If yes, why? If no, why? A. Ragland
How many of you believe that the club CAN be swung on ONE, single plane throughout the duration of the whole golf swing (from takeaway to finish)? If yes, why? You can do anything in the golf swing if you practice long and hard enough.
Look at Alan Doyle’s swing. Long and Accurate. Great swing in terms of results. Why does anybody care that it looks like a hockey slapshot? It’s on one plane, or as close as he can get it. Because I value hitting from the inside instead of the outside, and because any plane shift is hard to control, I try to stay on one plane too, though my backswing is longer than Doyle’s. Higher hands at address, right elbow follows the shaft plane up and back, hands shoulder height at the top, go back down on the shaft plane and use the right arm for hitting power. It’s accurate and long without straining my back. It’s right out of the TGM hitting procedure. What’s the problem? Cheers, Loren
Yes, because numerous people do swing on one plane. If you hit the point you address, you have to have swung on one plane.
Really? Then please xpalin Jim Furyk? — Dan Driscoll Member – NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many of you believe that the club CAN be swung on ONE, single plane throughout the duration of the whole golf swing (from takeaway to finish)? If yes, why? You can do anything in the golf swing if you practice long and hard enough. Because I value hitting from the inside instead of the outside, and because any plane shift is hard to control, I try to stay on one plane too, though my backswing is longer than Doyle’s. Higher hands at address, right elbow follows the shaft plane up and back,
The rt elbow * is supposed to folow the shaft plane up*, thats good. hands shoulder height at the top,
Now here is why you may think you swing on one plane but don’t actually. The rt elbow followed the shaft plane, but the hands went to shoulder height. Therefore you elevated the shaft. But, because the low end of the shaft must continue to point at the target line to be on-plane, your elevated shaft requires that the club now be steeper. IOW, if the low end stays constant on the target line, and the shaft elevates, the high end must steepen. Therefore, you ain’t in one plane. I’m making no opinion here about the quality of the stroke, I’m simply saying that it is *not* a single plane swing. go back down on the shaft plane and use – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the right arm for hitting power. It’s accurate and long without straining my back. It’s right out of the TGM hitting procedure. What’s the problem? Cheers, Loren
It might help to practice positions, independent of any swing at all.
Maybe. But at the range today, even with my driver, I practiced half-swings off the rubber tees. Holy shit do I hit it straight when I do that. 80% of the distance, but the flag looked like I was firing a machine-gun at it all afternoon. (That’s a metaphor; realistically, my spread was maybe 3% relative to distance.) Unfortunately, this experience is not pertinent to the thread, because a half-swing doesn’t involve the wrist actions and positions at the top. Which may be the point. Pose with the club. Get used to being in these positions.
Oh, I do that all the time. –Blair "And I’m a *sexy* beast."
I don’t get it, Blair. How can you be shooting these horrifically high scores you post? A better question is how can someone who post the scores they do tell someone else how wrong they are about swing mechanics?
I’ve never been in a balloon, but I can tell you’re one. –Blair "Those who can, do."
When the right arm folds its radius shortens pulling in the right hand causing the left wrist to cock. I’m going to presume you mean the radius from shoulder socket to grip, and not the radius bone. Of course. I guess the fact that I didn’t mention the word "bone" was a dead give away.
No, when you say "its radius" after "right arm" it’s like saying "its ulna" after "right arm". It’s more likely you’re talking about a bone. It’s also possible you’re talking about some shift in the position of the radius. And I’m going to say your causality isn’t right. Of course you are. Someone who tells us about the problems and inconsistentcy in his swing is definitely someone who should be correcting others about the mechanics of the swing.
That’s a fallacious conclusion. I can make a full turn with my arms going to the right shapes and places without any wrist-cock. Of course, the club is pointing up in the air (I actually saw a guy using this swing out back yesterday), but the right arm bend isn’t forcing the wrist to cock. Not when you try to not cock it.
You said that the bend of the right arm forced the wrist to cock. You are wrong. Get over it. In a good swing, the wrist-cock may be coordinated with bending the right elbow, and the right hand is used to help force the left to cock (though I’d like to hear some opinions on whether the right bicep should be lightly or strongly flexed here) but there’s nothing physiologically forcing that coordination. And exactly how did you come to this mechanical conclusion and what does the right bicep have to do with the right hand?
I came to the mechanical conclusion that the right arm does not innately force the wrist to cock by showing that it does not innately force the wrist to cock. And I’m just asking about the proper use of the right bicep in the swing. Try reading what I write. My advise is that since you now know the wrist cock as a result of the folding right arm But it’s not. Sorry but it is.
You can say that all day, but if I can cock the wrist without bending the arm and bend the arm without cocking the wrist then they’re independent motions that are purposely coordinated and the one doesn’t force the other to occur. you no longer have to think about or try to do it and just take the club back. It will smooth things out. "Smooth things out" is good advice. There isn’t a "point" at which the wrist cocks. It’s initiated as the club reaches horizontal at the back and completed as it reaches horizontal at the top and mostly happens in the first part of that segment of the swing. Really, then how am I able to cock my wrist directly from address with a full sweep load by using my bending right arm to lift the club and cock the wrist?
I didn’t say the right arm couldn’t cock the wrist. I’m saying that you’re wrong in implying that it must or that it’s the only way it happens. –Blair "What was Butch Harmon’s last tour victory?"
I guess I was trying to make the point that the arms shouldn’t move independently of the shoulder at the top, which is one definition of "hitting from the top." Lodestar actually teaches this move, oddly enough. Bizarre.
I’ll say. How Ledbetter became Lodestar completely evades my wildest imaginings. I even sent it through ispell to see what it suggested, but Lodestar is not on the list. I fear the worst. 8^) I’ve even seen him demonstrate it in slow motion. Just awful.
If the swing that Ledbetter is trying to teach me is the one he so confidently demonstrates as an example of good principles at work, then he is a fraud. I have seen him work with an average woman golfer on TV. Horrifying. A true story: Ledbetter demonstrated on TGChannel a "new" way of getting out of traps. He had a nine iron. MY GOD! That’s the shot I hit when I couldn’t break a 100, and didn’t own a wedge at all! He hits it stiff (after how many takes, who knows?). Dumb, I’m thinking. Real low percentage play. The next tournament, the man he almost destroyed, Nick Faldo, has the precise situation in the bunker that Ledbetter had in the commercial! Amazing! AND… and…he’s taking out a NINE IRON!! You have GOT to be KIDDING!! The announcers are all abuzz about his "new shot that he learned from David Ledbetter this week". Thud. Leaves it in the bunker, just like I did when I was 14. Same exact stupid shot I used to get away with once a week. Then he knocked it stiff with a sandwedge, like normal, uninfected by Ledbetter zaniness, PGA players do. Later, in the tent, Faldo says, "I won’t try that again!" And he hasn’t to my knowledge.
I’ve read somewhere that Ledbetter says that the proper folding of the right arm is one of the most misunderstood aspects of good golf. Do you believe the forlding of the right arm is fairly natural, or that it needs to be trained to be a proper move? I think it has to be trained. I’ve never trained mine and video of my swing shows it’s where it needs to be.
Lucky. Murphy’s Law rules the golf swing. I still need more work on it, though. I think I’m overdoing it, as my right upper arm doesn’t go to horizontal at the top. At least, I don’t think it does. Why does it need to be horizontal?
I don’t know, but all the pros do it. Mine is closer to my side, and I’m wondering if that’s not a crutch for something more seriously wrong. Leadbetter also gets into the folding of the *left* arm on the followthrough, which is even more unnatural And exactly how did you come to this conclusion?
By reading his book. –Blair "Lookit all the chickenwings."
I’ve read somewhere that Ledbetter says that the proper folding of the right arm is one of the most misunderstood aspects of good golf. Do you believe the forlding of the right arm is fairly natural, or that it needs to be trained to be a proper move?
I believe it is natural if you let it happen. Of all the people I have ever helped the only right arm problem I had to fix was keeping the right elbow too close to the body which caused the left arm to bends excessively. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
Try not to think about it… it will happen on it’s own.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it doesn’t get completed until you start the downswing anyway. You let the club drop a little at the top as your arm starts to pull down. This can only make the wrist-club angle more acute. I don’t get it, Blair. How can you be shooting these horrifically high scores you post? I mean…this is right on the money! Do you actually do what you’re saying here, or is it something you just *try* to do? I do that most times. I have other problems in my swing, and consistency and patience are the worst. A lot of the rest is hip/shoulder/arm coordination. I need a 1-on-1 lesson or a videotape to see how it looks vs. how it feels. I understand the theory, but I’ve only got it to work correctly once or twice. More care and consistency in my takeaway would also help.
It might help to practice positions, independent of any swing at all. This works for learning to play a musical instrument, and also seems to work for golf. There are places to be and places not to be in the swing, as you know. In front of a mirror, just put the club in what looks to you like a good position and hold it — get comfortable with it, feel like you have it under easy control with balance. Practice a full finish position, just holding in full balance — look in the mirror and make it look "right" to yourself. Practice an isometric with the clubface against a doorjam, so simulate impact, so you can get the feel (and build the muscles) of a good impact position — and hold it. You know what these positions look like in good golfer, so just copy them, try to pay attention to posture, club angle layed off or across the line, and where the weight is distributed, the position of the right knee, and so forth. Pose with the club. Get used to being in these positions. The transitions between positions are easier if you know exactly where you are and where you are going, and the only way to do that is to memorize them (like the hard parts in a difficult piece of music), whereupon the connections between them become easier. It’s amazing how much better (and more repeatable) one’s swing becomes when one of the main objects is to finish on balance with one’s spikes showing, never mind what sort of ugliness got you there. Uh…almost on the money. Your arms should NOT be pulling down, rather connecting to the hip/shoulder action. If your arms are pulling down that early, you’ll hit it like Faldo or Loren Roberts, i.e., like a sissy. They have to pull or the club won’t move; not that you’re torquing with your shoulder muscles, but with the whole locked torso and arm system as you describe. But it’s the arms that are connected to the club, so they’re doing the pulling. That’s all I meant.
I guess I was trying to make the point that the arms shouldn’t move independently of the shoulder at the top, which is one definition of "hitting from the top." Lodestar actually teaches this move, oddly enough. Bizarre. I’ve even seen him demonstrate it in slow motion. Just awful. Saw Vijay practicing on TV the other day with a golf glove under his left armpit, and the purpose of the exercise was to keep him from leading the swing with his arms and becoming disconnected as a result.
I don’t get it, Blair. How can you be shooting these horrifically high scores you post?
A better question is how can someone who post the scores they do tell someone else how wrong they are about swing mechanics? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
When the right arm folds its radius shortens pulling in the right hand causing the left wrist to cock. I’m going to presume you mean the radius from shoulder socket to grip, and not the radius bone.
Of course. I guess the fact that I didn’t mention the word "bone" was a dead give away. And I’m going to say your causality isn’t right.
Of course you are. Someone who tells us about the problems and inconsistentcy in his swing is definitely someone who should be correcting others about the mechanics of the swing. I can make a full turn with my arms going to the right shapes and places without any wrist-cock. Of course, the club is pointing up in the air (I actually saw a guy using this swing out back yesterday), but the right arm bend isn’t forcing the wrist to cock.
Not when you try to not cock it. In a good swing, the wrist-cock may be coordinated with bending the right elbow, and the right hand is used to help force the left to cock (though I’d like to hear some opinions on whether the right bicep should be lightly or strongly flexed here) but there’s nothing physiologically forcing that coordination.
And exactly how did you come to this mechanical conclusion and what does the right bicep have to do with the right hand? My advise is that since you now know the wrist cock as a result of the folding right arm But it’s not.
Sorry but it is. you no longer have to think about or try to do it and just take the club back. It will smooth things out. "Smooth things out" is good advice. There isn’t a "point" at which the wrist cocks. It’s initiated as the club reaches horizontal at the back and completed as it reaches horizontal at the top and mostly happens in the first part of that segment of the swing.
Really, then how am I able to cock my wrist directly from address with a full sweep load by using my bending right arm to lift the club and cock the wrist? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
I’ve read somewhere that Ledbetter says that the proper folding of the right arm is one of the most misunderstood aspects of good golf. Do you believe the forlding of the right arm is fairly natural, or that it needs to be trained to be a proper move? I think it has to be trained.
I’ve never trained mine and video of my swing shows it’s where it needs to be. I still need more work on it, though. I think I’m overdoing it, as my right upper arm doesn’t go to horizontal at the top. At least, I don’t think it does.
Why does it need to be horizontal? Leadbetter also gets into the folding of the *left* arm on the followthrough, which is even more unnatural
And exactly how did you come to this conclusion? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
But, one thing that confused me a little in your post is that you relate wide and slow swings with late wrist cock. I’m looking at the Ernie Els (and Michelle Wie) swing sequence in the latest Golf Digest … doesn’t get much more wide and slow than that I think … but his wrists cock *way* earlier than mine. By the time the left arm is parallel to the ground the club shaft is pointing straight up (is that "late"?). I’m thinking my wrist cock is *so* late that it doesn’t get complete unless I overswing. I think it doesn’t get completed until you start the downswing anyway. You let the club drop a little at the top as your arm starts to pull down. This can only make the wrist-club angle more acute.
I don’t get it, Blair. How can you be shooting these horrifically high scores you post? I mean…this is right on the money! Do you actually do what you’re saying here, or is it something you just *try* to do? Uh…almost on the money. Your arms should NOT be pulling down, rather connecting to the hip/shoulder action. If your arms are pulling down that early, you’ll hit it like Faldo or Loren Roberts, i.e., like a sissy.
I think it doesn’t get completed until you start the downswing anyway. You let the club drop a little at the top as your arm starts to pull down. This can only make the wrist-club angle more acute. I don’t get it, Blair. How can you be shooting these horrifically high scores you post? I mean…this is right on the money! Do you actually do what you’re saying here, or is it something you just *try* to do?
I do that most times. I have other problems in my swing, and consistency and patience are the worst. A lot of the rest is hip/shoulder/arm coordination. I need a 1-on-1 lesson or a videotape to see how it looks vs. how it feels. I understand the theory, but I’ve only got it to work correctly once or twice. More care and consistency in my takeaway would also help. Uh…almost on the money. Your arms should NOT be pulling down, rather connecting to the hip/shoulder action. If your arms are pulling down that early, you’ll hit it like Faldo or Loren Roberts, i.e., like a sissy.
They have to pull or the club won’t move; not that you’re torquing with your shoulder muscles, but with the whole locked torso and arm system as you describe. But it’s the arms that are connected to the club, so they’re doing the pulling. That’s all I meant. –Blair "You shoulda seen the one on 13."
I’ve read somewhere that Ledbetter says that the proper folding of the right arm is one of the most misunderstood aspects of good golf. Do you believe the forlding of the right arm is fairly natural, or that it needs to be trained to be a proper move?
I think it has to be trained. Keeping my elbow down is one of the things that helped me find my swing (after I lost it after I’d found it). "Flying elbow" is way too famous a flaw for good arm movements to be natural and easy. I still need more work on it, though. I think I’m overdoing it, as my right upper arm doesn’t go to horizontal at the top. At least, I don’t think it does. Leadbetter also gets into the folding of the *left* arm on the followthrough, which is even more unnatural (and when done wrong results in the "chicken wing"). –Blair "Don’t make me buy a video camera."
But, one thing that confused me a little in your post is that you relate wide and slow swings with late wrist cock. I’m looking at the Ernie Els (and Michelle Wie) swing sequence in the latest Golf Digest … doesn’t get much more wide and slow than that I think … but his wrists cock *way* earlier than mine. By the time the left arm is parallel to the ground the club shaft is pointing straight up (is that "late"?). I’m thinking my wrist cock is *so* late that it doesn’t get complete unless I overswing.
I think it doesn’t get completed until you start the downswing anyway. You let the club drop a little at the top as your arm starts to pull down. This can only make the wrist-club angle more acute. –Blair "And then Ernie holds it until 1/30th of a second before he hits the ball."
When the right arm folds its radius shortens pulling in the right hand causing the left wrist to cock.
I’m going to presume you mean the radius from shoulder socket to grip, and not the radius bone. And I’m going to say your causality isn’t right. I can make a full turn with my arms going to the right shapes and places without any wrist-cock. Of course, the club is pointing up in the air (I actually saw a guy using this swing out back yesterday), but the right arm bend isn’t forcing the wrist to cock. In a good swing, the wrist-cock may be coordinated with bending the right elbow, and the right hand is used to help force the left to cock (though I’d like to hear some opinions on whether the right bicep should be lightly or strongly flexed here) but there’s nothing physiologically forcing that coordination. My advise is that since you now know the wrist cock as a result of the folding right arm
But it’s not. you no longer have to think about or try to do it and just take the club back. It will smooth things out.
"Smooth things out" is good advice. There isn’t a "point" at which the wrist cocks. It’s initiated as the club reaches horizontal at the back and completed as it reaches horizontal at the top and mostly happens in the first part of that segment of the swing. –Blair "And thinking about all of this before the swing rather than after is a great way to tie yourself up in knots."
At the top of your backswing you want your left wrist fully pronated. At impact neutral. At the end of the follow through fully supinated. There is a great picture of this movement on page 102 of Hogan’s Five Lessons. Have I mentioned this excellent book here before? :-)
I’m not sure. Who wrote it? Is it any good?
says… At the top of your backswing you want your left wrist fully pronated. At impact neutral. At the end of the follow through fully supinated. There is a great picture of this movement on page 102 of Hogan’s Five Lessons. Have I mentioned this excellent book here before? :-) I’m not sure. Who wrote it? Is it any good?
Mentioning that book is usually good for a flame war. Hogan didn’t swing like his book said, blah blah blah. It’s worked fairly well for me over the years though. Each to his own. jmkanes
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remember this, the wrist cock is a result of the folding or bending right arm. You may have heard some people say the wrist cock naturally in the back swing. Well they do, when the right arm folds. When the right arm folds its radius shortens pulling in the right hand causing the left wrist to cock. It’s as simple as that. Golfers with wide backswings keep the right arm extended longer and have a later wrist cock. Golfers with narrow backswings bend the right arm sooner and have an earlier wrist cock. Speed can also affect the wrist cock location. Slow backswings use less right arm participation to help lift the club and the wrist cock later. Quick or sharp backswings use more right arm participation to lift the club (and help over come the clubs inertia) resulting in an earlier wrist cock. My advise is that since you now know the wrist cock as a result of the folding right arm you no longer have to think about or try to do it and just take the club back. It will smooth things out. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
I’ve read somewhere that Ledbetter says that the proper folding of the right arm is one of the most misunderstood aspects of good golf. Do you believe the forlding of the right arm is fairly natural, or that it needs to be trained to be a proper move?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remember this, the wrist cock is a result of the folding or bending right arm. You may have heard some people say the wrist cock naturally in the back swing. Well they do, when the right arm folds. When the right arm folds its radius shortens pulling in the right hand causing the left wrist to cock. It’s as simple as that. Golfers with wide backswings keep the right arm extended longer and have a later wrist cock. Golfers with narrow backswings bend the right arm sooner and have an earlier wrist cock. Speed can also affect the wrist cock location. Slow backswings use less right arm participation to help lift the club and the wrist cock later. Quick or sharp backswings use more right arm participation to lift the club (and help over come the clubs inertia) resulting in an earlier wrist cock. My advise is that since you now know the wrist cock as a result of the folding right arm you no longer have to think about or try to do it and just take the club back. It will smooth things out. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
Thanks David. Keying on the bending of the right to facilitate the wrist cock does seem to help smooth things out. But, one thing that confused me a little in your post is that you relate wide and slow swings with late wrist cock. I’m looking at the Ernie Els (and Michelle Wie) swing sequence in the latest Golf Digest … doesn’t get much more wide and slow than that I think … but his wrists cock *way* earlier than mine. By the time the left arm is parallel to the ground the club shaft is pointing straight up (is that "late"?). I’m thinking my wrist cock is *so* late that it doesn’t get complete unless I overswing. Rob
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was working on my backswing a bit at the range today … trying to follow more exactly what I’ve seen in a few different books and in most pro swing sequences .. specifically working on the takeaway and having the wrists fully cocked when the left arm is about horizontal. In my "natural" swing the takeaway goes a little inside, my wrists tend to cock much later (near the top), and I think it hurts my distance. So, for me to make a "correct" backswing tends to break down into 3 sections … roughly the first quarter, the middle half, and the last quarter: – the beginning takeaway (first 2-3 feet or so) goes almost straight back, arms extending a bit away from chest. – from there I make a fairly aggressive wrist cock, while the left arm moves about 45*, the club shaft moves 90* (from horizontal to vertical). – the final 1/4 is mostly shoulder turn with the arms continuing back too (wrists maintain 90* with left arm). The problem is that the only way I can do this right now is in 3 distinct motions. It really kills any concept of a smooth, continuous swing (although I assume that would get better). The funny thing is that I can actually hit balls quite well this way … contact is sometimes a little thin, but distance and accuracy seems to be noticeably better, and my normal slight fade turns into a distinct draw. But I can’t really see myself trying to play a game this way. So … is there any problem with my basic concept here or a better way to go about this? Any recommended drills? Am I going to totally screw up my swing by breaking it down like this? Thanks for any opinions or advice. Rob
Although I practice an early ‘backward wrist break’ (Joe Dante : "The Four Magic Moves To Winning Golf", foot of page 53) I find it is more important to start the backswing with the arms and shoulders working in unison for a foot or so of clubhead movement, before I start manipulating the wrists, otherwise my break leads to a jerky start to the backswing and worse, I tend to dip my left shoulder unnecessarily. Dante talks of a pro (1961 PGA Champion Jerry Barber) who started the break in his forward press. The only drill that works for me is lots and lots of practice, although the good thing about this practice is that I don’t need to be at the range, or even need a ball, and I practise that the break is complete before by hands reach waist height. A late break may or may not affect _your_ distance, but for me, I was never satisfied with the quality of the out of sight break I made at the top, whereas now I can see it all in my peripheral vision. I also felt, rightly or wrongly, that a late break would tend to release early, and releasing early I was.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I was working on my backswing a bit at the range today … trying to follow more exactly what I’ve seen in a few different books and in most pro swing sequences .. specifically working on the takeaway and having the wrists fully cocked when the left arm is about horizontal. In my "natural" swing the takeaway goes a little inside, my wrists tend to cock much later (near the top), and I think it hurts my distance. So, for me to make a "correct" backswing tends to break down into 3 sections … roughly the first quarter, the middle half, and the last quarter: - the beginning takeaway (first 2-3 feet or so) goes almost straight back, arms extending a bit away from chest. - from there I make a fairly aggressive wrist cock, while the left arm moves about 45*, the club shaft moves 90* (from horizontal to vertical). - the final 1/4 is mostly shoulder turn with the arms continuing back too (wrists maintain 90* with left arm). The problem is that the only way I can do this right now is in 3 distinct motions. It really kills any concept of a smooth, continuous swing (although I assume that would get better). The funny thing is that I can actually hit balls quite well this way … contact is sometimes a little thin, but distance and accuracy seems to be noticeably better, and my normal slight fade turns into a distinct draw. But I can’t really see myself trying to play a game this way. So … is there any problem with my basic concept here or a better way to go about this? Any recommended drills? Am I going to totally screw up my swing by breaking it down like this? Thanks for any opinions or advice.
Remember this, the wrist cock is a result of the folding or bending right arm. You may have heard some people say the wrist cock naturally in the back swing. Well they do, when the right arm folds. When the right arm folds its radius shortens pulling in the right hand causing the left wrist to cock. It’s as simple as that. Golfers with wide backswings keep the right arm extended longer and have a later wrist cock. Golfers with narrow backswings bend the right arm sooner and have an earlier wrist cock. Speed can also affect the wrist cock location. Slow backswings use less right arm participation to help lift the club and the wrist cock later. Quick or sharp backswings use more right arm participation to lift the club (and help over come the clubs inertia) resulting in an earlier wrist cock. My advise is that since you now know the wrist cock as a result of the folding right arm you no longer have to think about or try to do it and just take the club back. It will smooth things out. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was working on my backswing a bit at the range today … trying to follow more exactly what I’ve seen in a few different books and in most pro swing sequences .. specifically working on the takeaway and having the wrists fully cocked when the left arm is about horizontal. In my "natural" swing the takeaway goes a little inside, my wrists tend to cock much later (near the top), and I think it hurts my distance. So, for me to make a "correct" backswing tends to break down into 3 sections … roughly the first quarter, the middle half, and the last quarter: – the beginning takeaway (first 2-3 feet or so) goes almost straight back, arms extending a bit away from chest. – from there I make a fairly aggressive wrist cock, while the left arm moves about 45*, the club shaft moves 90* (from horizontal to vertical). – the final 1/4 is mostly shoulder turn with the arms continuing back too (wrists maintain 90* with left arm). The problem is that the only way I can do this right now is in 3 distinct motions. It really kills any concept of a smooth, continuous swing (although I assume that would get better). The funny thing is that I can actually hit balls quite well this way … contact is sometimes a little thin, but distance and accuracy seems to be noticeably better, and my normal slight fade turns into a distinct draw. But I can’t really see myself trying to play a game this way. So … is there any problem with my basic concept here or a better way to go about this? Any recommended drills? Am I going to totally screw up my swing by breaking it down like this? Thanks for any opinions or advice. Rob
There are two separate things going on at once. There is the backswing *pronation* of the left wrist and the opposite supination of the left wrist on the downswing and follow through. I view the wrist cock as a separate thing. Starting from the address position, the left wrist should pronate uniformly throughout the backswing. On the downswing, the pronation should reverse, coming back to neutral at impact and continue the supination until the completion of the follow through, at which point the left wrist is fully supinated. You can practise this without a club in your hand. Hold your left arm roughly in the "address" position. The thumb is aimed down and directly away from you. Now rotate your arm so that the thumb points to your right: your left wrist is fully pronated. Now rotate your left arm so that the thumb points to the left: your left wrist is now fully supinated. At the top of your backswing you want your left wrist fully pronated. At impact neutral. At the end of the follow through fully supinated. There is a great picture of this movement on page 102 of Hogan’s Five Lessons. Have I mentioned this excellent book here before? :-) The wrist *cock* is different. Hold your left arm in the address position again. Move your wrist as if to point your left thumb at your nose. That’s your wrist cock. You can cock both wrists sometime before you reach the top of your backswing, I don’t think it particularly matters when. Once you get to the top of your backswing, fully pronated and cocked, forget all about your hands and wrists. Just shift your weight to the left side (if you do it right this will bring your right shoulder down, simultaneously and automatically)and start turning your hips to the left. Keep your right elbow in close and turn your hips as fast as you can to the left, while pouring everything you’ve got into striking the ball, with your turning shoulders, arms and hands. Well maybe not everything. Try to do it smoothly, emphasizing the order – hips, shoulders, arms, then hands. If you do this last paragraph right, it should feel powerful and effortless. If you do it wrong (get the sequence wrong) it feels like hard work. Good luck in your golf journey. jmkanes
I was working on my backswing a bit at the range today … trying to follow more exactly what I’ve seen in a few different books and in most pro swing sequences .. specifically working on the takeaway and having the wrists fully cocked when the left arm is about horizontal. In my "natural" swing the takeaway goes a little inside, my wrists tend to cock much later (near the top), and I think it hurts my distance. So, for me to make a "correct" backswing tends to break down into 3 sections … roughly the first quarter, the middle half, and the last quarter: – the beginning takeaway (first 2-3 feet or so) goes almost straight back, arms extending a bit away from chest. – from there I make a fairly aggressive wrist cock, while the left arm moves about 45*, the club shaft moves 90* (from horizontal to vertical). – the final 1/4 is mostly shoulder turn with the arms continuing back too (wrists maintain 90* with left arm). The problem is that the only way I can do this right now is in 3 distinct motions. It really kills any concept of a smooth, continuous swing (although I assume that would get better). The funny thing is that I can actually hit balls quite well this way … contact is sometimes a little thin, but distance and accuracy seems to be noticeably better, and my normal slight fade turns into a distinct draw. But I can’t really see myself trying to play a game this way. So … is there any problem with my basic concept here or a better way to go about this? Any recommended drills? Am I going to totally screw up my swing by breaking it down like this? Thanks for any opinions or advice. Rob
I was working on my backswing a bit at the range today … trying to follow more exactly what I’ve seen in a few different books and in most pro swing sequences .. specifically working on the takeaway and having the wrists fully cocked when the left arm is about horizontal. In my "natural" swing the takeaway goes a little inside, my wrists tend to cock much later (near the top), and I think it hurts my distance. So, for me to make a "correct" backswing tends to break down into 3 sections … roughly the first quarter, the middle half, and the last quarter: - the beginning takeaway (first 2-3 feet or so) goes almost straight back, arms extending a bit away from chest.
I like to see both arms touching the front of the abdomen. The arms must work in unison with the torso, supporting the power of the torso rather than using the torso as a leverage point for puny hand and arm power. - from there I make a fairly aggressive wrist cock, while the left arm moves about 45*, the club shaft moves 90* (from horizontal to vertical).
It sounds as if your arms are too extended, but that’s only a guess. If the hands are more in your lap, with the arms hanging straight down, you have a considerable wrist cock built in at address. - the final 1/4 is mostly shoulder turn with the arms continuing back too (wrists maintain 90* with left arm).
The problem with this approach is the difficulty in preventing oneself from casting. With the full wristcock already in place at the top, it’s hard to relax and wait on the weight shift. It’s almost invariably the mark of shorter hitters, as well, like O’Meara and Faldo. To get the most out things, the initial wristcock is sufficient at the top, and the wristcock only completes at the beginning of the downswing, the reverse of casting. Bobby Jones recommended "flopping" the club at the top, to induce this very move, although that brings on a host of new problems. Snead says he likes to feel "oily", and the fluid look of his swing is precisely this move, where the hands (and even arms) finish their wrist cock only after the hips and shoulders and weight shift have begun. The problem is that the only way I can do this right now is in 3 distinct motions. It really kills any concept of a smooth, continuous swing (although I assume that would get better). The funny thing is that I can actually hit balls quite well this way … contact is sometimes a little thin, but distance and accuracy seems to be noticeably better, and my normal slight fade turns into a distinct draw. But I can’t really see myself trying to play a game this way.
Try hitting the ball as hard as you would play catch at 20 feet. Feel a smooth continuation of the hands and arms back as you prepare your downswing weight shift. As long as you don’t *jump* at the ball, your hands and wrists will hold a lag position until about waist high, when the club will begin to rapidly overtake the hands into impact. So … is there any problem with my basic concept here or a better way to go about this? Any recommended drills? Am I going to totally screw up my swing by breaking it down like this? Thanks for any opinions or advice.
Think of throwing a ball. Doesn’t your grip on the ball remain relaxed at the transition point? If you hold it tight at that point, you can’t throw worth a damn. And do you throw the ball with your hand muscles? No. It’s like that. Hitting a golf ball is much more like throwing a baseball than hitting it with a bat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Rob
Hi, I know it’s off topic, but what process/software do we need to view the posting in alt.binaries.games.golf? I found it, but I’m at a loss on what to do next. Thanks for your assistance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good? Bad? So-So? Is this a real advance in technique or just another over-hyped product? How does he manage to hit 250 yard drives on one leg, either one as in his TV video? thanks, Bob Most reviews I’ve read weren’t too favorable but I thought they were pretty good. They’re better for a 90+ shooter than someone trying to break 80. I don’t agree 100% with his mechanical approach but I do like his approach to how you should play the game to score well. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I know it’s off topic, but what process/software do we need to view the posting in alt.binaries.games.golf? I found it, but I’m at a loss on what to do next. Thanks for your assistance. Good? Bad? So-So? Is this a real advance in technique or just another over-hyped product? How does he manage to hit 250 yard drives on one leg, either one as in his TV video? thanks, Bob Most reviews I’ve read weren’t too favorable but I thought they were pretty good. They’re better for a 90+ shooter than someone trying to break 80. I don’t agree 100% with his mechanical approach but I do like his approach to how you should play the game to score well. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
I believe it uses YENC. I don’t know any more about it than that. I did find these references to newsreaders that can read YENC: http://Xnews.3Dnews.net "Look for "yEnc32" on Google." OK: "But you can download yEnc32, a freeware application from http://www.yenc32.com " "Thanks to all of you! I tried Forte Agent (steep learning curve) and then Grab-It. It looks like Grab-It is the easiest answer for nabbing those yEnc’d shns from ABMS! Thanks Again!" Free Grabit http://www.shemes.com/grabit/index.php?p=download yDec – The freeware decoder for yEncode http://groups.google.com/groups?q=download+%22windows+version%22+of+y… — Joe =o) ___ o ` & /