Question:
You can address me as David and leave your condescending attitude out of it. I can’t believe it that YOU are accusing me of a condescending attitude.
Have I ever referred to YOU as Timmy boy? What a hypocritical statement after how condescending you’ve been about the Natural Golf swing; telling Natural Golfers we’ve bought "snake oil", it doesn’t work (even when it obviously is for some of us),
Have I ever referred to you as Timmy boy? and displaying and portraying yourself as some kind of expert and Golf Guru that has done meaningful study of the golf swing. Buy a mirror.
You’re new to RSG aren’t you? Any regular can tell you I’ve never claimed or tried to portray myself as a guru or expert. You perceive me as one because you know so little. You may not think the Natural Golf swing is any good. Fine. But how about what Lee Travino said about someone swinging with it: "He’s the best ball-striker I ever saw come down the pipe. I didn’t see them all, but I don’t know how anyone could hit the ball better than Moe Norman." That someone he was referring to was Moe Norman, not just someone. Obviously it did refer to Moe. It says so right in the quote. So, Moe doesn’t count as a person?
So now it’s a play on words? He is still a person that used the Natural Golf swing.
No, Moe Norman uses the Moe Norman swing. Kuykendall copied it from him many years later and called it Natural Golf. BTW, Kuykendall also ripped off the name ‘Natural Golf’ from Peter Croker. It was holier-than-thou jerks like you that kept Moe off the PGA tour by belittling him because he didn’t dress well enough and not taking into account that he was mentally handicapped.
The only person who kept Moe off the tour was himself. Heck, if they wouldn’t have been so cruel, and Moe had played the US PGA Tour, we might almost all of us be using the Natural Golf swing Moe used now.
He did play the US PGA Tour. How do you explain him finishing 4th at the New Orleans Open? I quoted what Travino and Crenshaw said about someone using the Natural Golf swing. What makes YOU think that Moe doesn’t count?
Why didn’t you use the name Moe Norman instead of "someone using the NG swing"? You used a play on words to make it sound like some schmuck using the NG method was being praised as a great ball striker by Trevino and Crenshaw. I think Crenshaw and Travino know a bit more about golf than you. At least they aren’t nearly as close-minded. Or you who has to mislead to shove the concept down my throat. Here’s a tip, don’t give a reference then misquote it. First, I didn’t misquote anything.
You intentionally misquoted the person they were referring to as "someone using the NG swing". I stated the quotes as to who actually stated them, and they were referring to someone that used the Natural Golf swing, which Moe did.
You could have just as easily used Moe Norman’s name as "someone using the Natural Golf swing". For someone accusing other types of keeping Moe off the tour seems you did your best to keep Moe from getting recognition in Trevino’s and Crenshaw’s quotes. I actually cut and pasted the quotes.
Leaving out the person they were referring too. Apparently you should have studied English grammar more and ’studied’ the golf swing a bit less if you don’t even know what an accurate quote is.
Maybe you should have studied English grammar more to know that words are meant to communicate clear meaning, not mislead the reader. Please tell me exactly what word or sentence I didn’t quote 100% accurately?
You quoted them exactly, what you misquoted was who they were referring too. Again, you used a play on words. Second, I’m NOT (for about the ninth time now) trying to shove ANY concept down your throat. I don’t care what swing you use or in what golf swing concepts you believe! I don’t care what you think about Natural Golf or it being ’snake oil’, as you referred to it.
Then why are you defending Natural Golf so much? You keep trying to change this to an argument about a swing.
Isn’t Natural Golf a swing? Please correct me if I’m wrong. I am not going to argue about golf swings other than to say that you are wrong about the Natural Golf swing not working — at least for some people.
No, instead you’ll call me "Davie boy" and refer to me as jerk. Unlike you, I feel that everyone has the right to use any golf swing they want without my telling them how I feel about it.
And unlike you I believe in the first amendment and the freedom to express my opinion. If I don’t think their swing works, I’m going to keep my mouth shut and not be a flaming ass by telling them they are buying ’snake oil’ and that the swing they are using is crap.
No, instead you’ll just mock the names of those who don’t believe in your swing and accuse them of being holier-than-thou jerks. Of course, I’m not Mr. "Instructor", though.
We can tell. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
I wasn’t insulting it. Not a bad page. Just that your sure get complex in trying to explain the traditional swing mechanics and your reason why one has to to have their hands in a certain position, which isn’t what one ~thinks~ they see.
I didn’t know you spoke for everyone. What may be complex to you may be simple to others. No wonder you don’t want to investigate the Natural Golf swing. You would lose your income if it worked. What income are you referring too????? Haven’t you given lessons for money?
Yes, I DID. So what income are you referring to in your above quote? Oh, so you first said you knew it was crap because everyone you know gives it up within 6 months. Now you say it is because of that and because you thoroughly investigated it for 2 days back in the early 90’s. Seems that the two days is the stronger point. I’m surprised you didn’t make it in your original post.
I didn’t know I was supposed to include a complete biography in each answer. Tell me, what methods have you studied? I read Golf Magazine, so I guess I’ve ’studied’ about as many as you have.
Good, then I suppose you can tell me the 5 accelerations and their controls in the swing. Should be easy for someone who reads Golf Magazine and studied as many concepts as I have. I’ll be waiting for Unlike you I’m not making money off of a golf swing. How am I making money off the golf swing? As I said, haven’t you made money off your concepts of the golf swing?
I DID, so how am I presently making money off the golf swing? If I were others, I would take my 2 cents worth over yours any day of the week. Do you stomp around beating your chest too? Sometimes.
I believe this. I don’t have any ax to grind as you do. If this were true why did you reply 3 times to my 1 message? I’m just defending Natural Golf.
Why, you said you don’t care if it catches on or not? You are the one that is attacking and I just kept finding more and more incongruent stuff about you and what you wrote.
The only thing your doing is trying to find fault in my words to justify your belief in NG. Good luck. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
Paul Azinger is not even close. It is my opinion he is very close, whether it is your opinion or not. Explain why. Gee, if you can’t see it it makes me wonder about those two days you supposedly spent attempting to ’study’ the Natural Golf swing.
I must have missed it. Where in that above sentence did you explain Azinger’s use of NG principles? True, but if it did work they would still be using it. No, Davie boy.
My name is David, try addressing me as such. If it did work for THEM,
Yes, IF it did, but it didn’t. assuming they were doing it right, which they probably weren’t, they would still be using it. This has nothing to do with IF IT WORKS. How many golfers are we talking about here, anyway?
I know of at least 6 golfers who tried it, two of them attended a NG golf school taught by Kuykendall himself. All abandoned it within 6 months because their scores went up, not down. I don’t know why they weren’t doing it right, according to you it’s so simple it allows one to self-diagnose when something goes astray. Ah, hem. So, you knew about my bad back before you said I switched to Natural Golf to improve my game. You must also be psychic, Davie.
I found out about your bad back after visiting you web page shortly before I posted my last replies. Perhaps since you didn’t tell us of your disability. Yes, you assumed it.
I didn’t assume, you clearly stated it on you web page. Then you started berating Natural Golf as something that doesn’t work at all.
I’m berating it because it’s a snake oil concept being sold to the thousands of naive and gullible weekend hackers who don’t know any better. Yes. It is nice to be able to get around fine after playing. Look at all the PGA people that have back problems. Hmmm… wonder what is that is precipitating all those back problems?
Might be something they were born with, might be from washing their car tires, might be numerous reasons not associated with golf. Can you point to that exact sentence where I said YOU would give it up in 6 months? You said everyone you knew that tried it gave it up within 6 months. Then, when it came to trying to make a point that I would drop it, you implied that I wouldn’t be using it in 2 years. I found it odd that once the person using the Natural Golf swing was in your face and could reply you changed your trail period so drastically.
Oh yea, you got me trembling in my boots. If I knew you were within driving distance I’d gladly get in your face and tell you exactly what I think. Why did I give you 2 years? Because you’ll still be using NG in 6 months whether it works or not just out of spite. You won’t be using it in 2 years because you won’t be able to tolerate the embarrassment that long for being so gullible. I see, we have our heads up our ass because we didn’t buy the snake oil like you did. No, you still don’t understand, Davie boy. I know it is hard, but try to listen.
My name is David, try addressing me as such. It has nothing to do with your changing your swing or trying something different, or even buying into something in which you don’t believe. It doesn’t even have anything to do with whether Natural Golf is "snake oil," as you believe, or not. It is just that you are so close-minded that you and Jedi have to publicly and vocally tear down something some other golfer is doing — even if it IS working for them. You feel so strong about it, even if it isn’t affecting you at all and no one is trying to talk you into anything, that you have to chime in and disparage, belittle, ridicule, and denigrate it. It is your My-Way-or-No-Way, selfish, childish, smug attitude.
No, what I think is selfish, childish and a smug attitude is your referring to me as "Davie boy". I could type on further today and make more points, but I’m hesitant to engage in a battle of wits with unarmed opponents. Fire away, I’d love to go head to head with you. Done, Mr. "Instructor".
Ouch, that hurt! Do you slap and pull hair too? David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
I don’t care if you or anyone else wants to use it. Tim, are all Natural Golfers assholes like you? ~You~ would be a reason I wouldn’t want to use it.
That’s about as STUPID a comment as I’ve ever heard! I drink coffee, so I suppose you should give that up. I drive a car on the right hand side of the road, so you better start driving on the left. What an absurd piece of illogical reasoning, Jason. By what you are saying you are putting yourself in a class with the same jerk that starts giving out swing advice to his fellow players on the course… even if it isn’t requested.
So, Jason, I guess you are one who does this type of thing and thinks it is fine. Well, most of us think you should keep your yaps shut. http://members.xoom.com/Dragonna/2cents.wav Nash
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It has nothing to do with your changing your swing or trying something different, or even buying into something in which you don’t believe. It doesn’t even have anything to do with whether Natural Golf is "snake oil," as you believe, or not. It is just that you are so close-minded that you and Jedi have to publicly and vocally tear down something some other golfer is doing — even if it IS working for them. You feel so strong about it, even if it isn’t affecting you at all and no one is trying to talk you into anything, that you have to chime in and disparage, belittle, ridicule, and denigrate it. It is your My-Way-or-No-Way, selfish, childish, smug attitude. By what you are saying you are putting yourself in a class with the same jerk that starts giving out swing advice to his fellow players on the course… even if it isn’t requested. If you happen to do that, I must say it doesn’t surprise me. You are in the right sport, though. We all have our own balls. In other sports you would be threatening to take your ball and go home if everybody didn’t play the way you wanted. Jeese, Davie boy, imagine someone walking up to Chi Chi and saying to him, "Hey, that bracelet is crap! It doesn’t work and won’t help with any medical condition." And, that person does this without ever having tried the bracelet or only wore it for a day. (Natural Golf says it takes a few weeks to get use to and start working and, by your own account, you only looked at it for 2 days.) Well, wouldn’t that person be an asshole? Sure, he is entitled to his opinion — just as you are (every asshole has one) about Natural Golf — but, what difference does it make to him if Chi Chi wants to wear that bracelet, why he wears it, or even if he sells them? The guy is just a rude jerk. I think you see my point.
Tim, are all Natural Golfers assholes like you? ~You~ would be a reason I wouldn’t want to use it.
Response:
Hi Rob, Moe did not "use the natural golf swing". The (current?) concept of natural golf is based on Moe Norman’s swing. Moe developed his swing on his own. He was not taught "natural golf" by anyone.
Uh? Excuse me if I made it sound like Moe was taught the NG swing. I didn’t intend that. I do feel he used the Natural Golf swing as there is nothing about the NG swing as it it taught by the NG Corporation videos that is unlike Moe’s swing. Thus Moe did not use a "natural golf" swing.
Seems a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing to me. Natural golf uses Moe’s swing.
With that I’ve got to agree. Thus the issue is "is there anyone using natural golf who is as good as or even near those using conventional swings?"
Now that’s a whole different question for which I would agree that, as you said, "Moe Norman is not an acceptable answer." That is also a question about which, however, I was never arguing. Make a couple assumptions. Let’s say that Harry Vardin used the NG swing and it caught on. And for the last 100 years we had all been taught the NG swing — including all the top PGA players. Now let’s say that someone came up with a different swing, let’s say identical to the Vardin Grip and the traditional swing, and the guy happened to be Moe Norman and also did as well as Moe and had the same mental handicap, etc. I bet the results would be the same in that there would be very few PGA Pros today using Moe’s swing. They would have grown up having been taught the NG swing, and would be resistant to change and trying something else… just as they should be. After all, the saying is "Dance with the one that brung `ya." Also, you can’t take 5,000,000 kids and teens being taught the conventional swing for every 1 being taught the NG swing and not expect that almost 100% of the top PGA pros from that group, 5 to 15 years later, aren’t using a conventional swing. I’m not saying my stats are right there, only making a point: Why should there be any current PGA Tour pros using the NG swing when no one learned it when that age group was growing up? You have to realize that though Moe started using the NG swing (or "his’ swing if you want to get technical on the semantics), back in the 50’s, no one has tried to promote it, or not done so in a meaningful way, until the last few years. I do think I would make this bet. In 5 to 10 years we will see top PGA pros using the NG swing. Not as many as the conventional swing because that is the swing that is still most often taught, but there will be some. That isn’t why I’m using it, though. I’m only using it cause it is giving me better scores without the back pain that use to follow a round of golf. Tim —