Question:
David is correct if the golfer has the normal downswing rotation. I believe he is saying that due to the fault–most player have an opposite rotation which is : instead of a clubface that goes from closing through impact—they have a clubface that is opening through impact. I think he is correct.
This is what I’m saying, except the rotation happens in the downstroke instead of impact. You and me, we’re on the same page 
David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor of spam free golf advice
Response:
Even if Leadbetter was convinced that cupping the wrist closes the clubface he wouldn’t admit it. That would mean a major error printed in his books and a lot of questions about his "encyclopedic" knowledge of the swing. These guys have to be consistent for credibility.
I’m not saying he says cupping the wrist causes it. I’m saying he says when the club face points to the sky at the top of the backswing, it’s closed. Actually, the cupping, or lack of, is irrelevant. It’s a red herring. Actually it is revellent because once the grip is taking it has a lot to do with the clubface position at the top.
It’s related, but the club face will be open or closed in any given position independently of it, just like the club face can be open at impact even if you have a strong grip. On what is this based? What determines that toward the sky is closed, why not open?
Well this seems metaphysical. What determines that the clubface pointing right at impact (for a right handed swinger) is open? It just is agreed upon. You’re now talking about two different things. When you take the club back so it’s parallel to the ground at point A forearm rotation rotates the clubface open and closed.
OK. That may be, but like I said it’s a red herring. A club is open because it’s open, not because it causes a slice, or not. I know that, but why is it open?
Well, you know more about the axes of the swing and the whys than I do. Here is the easiest way I know to explain it, and hopefully it will take out all the other variables. Take your normal (good) address, except rotate the club in your hands so that the club face is 60* closed. Don’t manipulate the club, just have the club turned. I think we all agree that’s a closed club face. Now take your normal (good) swing with everything "square". At the top, where is the club face aimed? Now repeat, except at adress, open the club face 60* (by rotating the club, not moving your hands.) At the top, where is the club face aimed? I’m arguing that closed is closed and open is open, no matter how it got that way.
Response:
David is correct if the golfer has the normal downswing rotation. I believe he is saying that due to the fault–most player have an opposite rotation which is : instead of a clubface that goes from closing through impact—they have a clubface that is opening through impact. I think he is correct. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Open means the club is facing the ground. Closed means the club is facing the sky. This is the biggest misconception in golf and golfers believe it without giving it a second thought. I have to differ with you there. Most amateurs think just the opposite, and when they do hear it, they sure don’t accept it without a second thought – they don’t believe it. They don’t believe it because it looks wrong. A clubface that points to the sky just plain looks open, and intuition tells them it’s open. If it is a misconception, then it is a misconception at the highest levels of teaching. You’ll have to start by convincing Leadbetter he’s wrong 
If you bend or cup your left wrist so that the clubhead is pointing at the ground you are in fact closing it, not opening it as the golfing majority has been mislead into believing. If you do the same thing at address or impact, bend or cup the left wrist, the club swings up and it from the wrist closing the clubface. So how can the same wrist geometry give you two different clubface alignments? Actually, the cupping, or lack of, is irrelevant. It’s a red herring. The club is open or closed relative to the plane of the swing. And in the context of the top of the backswing position, toward the sky is closed, and toward the ground is open. Think of it like this. Let’s say you’ve taken the club back until it’s parallel with the ground (the first time.) Call this position A. At this point, and in this context, I’m sure you’d agree that "closed" is in the direction of the ground, and "open" is in the direction of the sky, right? Conventional wisdom says "toe straight up" is "square". I don’t want to get into a discussion of whether this is exactly right (depending on grip etc etc etc.) But directionally I think we agree – moving the facce toward the ground is closing it, moving the face toward the sky is opening it. I’m not talking about *how* you manipulate it, I’m talking "plain" (plane) geometry. Now finish the backswing (until the club is again parallel with the ground) – position B. What you’ve done is moved the club 180 degrees, so the butt points in the direction the clubhead used to at position A, and the clubhead points in the direction the butt used to. The club is now backwards and upside down. What was "open" at position A is still "open" but looks opposite. If it was closed (pointing to the ground) at position A, then if you make no further manipulation (just move the club in geometric space), then the club must still be closed, but now it’s pointing at the sky. This is most easily demonstrated with a pendulum swinging in the straight up and down plane (not a tilted plane like the golf swing.) But it’s true in either case. What happens is that when you bend or cup the left wrist at the top you close the clubface. When the left wrist flattens in the downswing it does with a reverse roll motion. Reverse wrist rolls open clubfaces (they don’t close open clubfaces). Open clubfaces cause slices. So the conclusion has been that cupping or bending produces slices therefor it must be an open position. The fact of the matter is the compensating motion is what caused the slice and the golfing public is misinformed as a result. That may be, but like I said it’s a red herring. A club is open because it’s open, not because it causes a slice, or not.
Response:
This is the biggest misconception in golf and golfers believe it without giving it a second thought. I have to differ with you there. Most amateurs think just the opposite, and when they do hear it, they sure don’t accept it without a second thought – they don’t believe it. They don’t believe it because it looks wrong. A clubface that points to the sky just plain looks open, and intuition tells them it’s open.
I have yet to meet a golfer who thinks a clubface that points at the sky looks or is open. They all claim the clubface to be shut. If it is a misconception, then it is a misconception at the highest levels of teaching. You’ll have to start by convincing Leadbetter he’s wrong
Even if Leadbetter was convinced that cupping the wrist closes the clubface he wouldn’t admit it. That would mean a major error printed in his books and a lot of questions about his "encyclopedic" knowledge of the swing. These guys have to be consistent for credibility. If you bend or cup your left wrist so that the clubhead is pointing at the ground you are in fact closing it, not opening it as the golfing majority has been mislead into believing. If you do the same thing at address or impact, bend or cup the left wrist, the club swings up and it from the wrist closing the clubface. So how can the same wrist geometry give you two different clubface alignments? Actually, the cupping, or lack of, is irrelevant. It’s a red herring.
Actually it is revellent because once the grip is taking it has a lot to do with the clubface position at the top. The club is open or closed relative to the plane of the swing.
Yes and no but I have to dissagree. And in the context of the top of the backswing position, toward the sky is closed, and toward the ground is open.
On what is this based? What determines that toward the sky is closed, why not open? Think of it like this. Let’s say you’ve taken the club back until it’s parallel with the ground (the first time.) Call this position A. At this point, and in this context, I’m sure you’d agree that "closed" is in the direction of the ground, and "open" is in the direction of the sky, right?
I agree but on to the next paragraph. Conventional wisdom says "toe straight up" is "square". I don’t want to get into a discussion of whether this is exactly right (depending on grip etc etc etc.) But directionally I think we agree – moving the facce toward the ground is closing it, moving the face toward the sky is opening it. I’m not talking about *how* you manipulate it, I’m talking "plain" (plane) geometry.
You’re now talking about two different things. When you take the club back so it’s parallel to the ground at point A forearm rotation rotates the clubface open and closed. When you get to the top and there’s a 90 degree between the left forearm and clubshaft forearm rotation does not open and close the clubface like before. Now bending and arching the wrist rotates the clubface open and close. Now finish the backswing (until the club is again parallel with the ground) – position B. What you’ve done is moved the club 180 degrees, so the butt points in the direction the clubhead used to at position A, and the clubhead points in the direction the butt used to. The club is now backwards and upside down. What was "open" at position A is still "open" but looks opposite. If it was closed (pointing to the ground) at position A, then if you make no further manipulation (just move the club in geometric space), then the club must still be closed, but now it’s pointing at the sky.
You lost me here. You seem to be basing this on "seems if". At position A the clubface was controlled by forearm rotation, at position B it’s controlled by wrist position. This is two different controll axis. This is most easily demonstrated with a pendulum swinging in the straight up and down plane (not a tilted plane like the golf swing.) But it’s true in either case.
Bad example. The pendulum doesn’t have a bend in it like the wrist cock which moves the club the from one axis to another. What happens is that when you bend or cup the left wrist at the top you close the clubface. When the left wrist flattens in the downswing it does with a reverse roll motion. Reverse wrist rolls open clubfaces (they don’t close open clubfaces). Open clubfaces cause slices. So the conclusion has been that cupping or bending produces slices therefor it must be an open position. The fact of the matter is the compensating motion is what caused the slice and the golfing public is misinformed as a result. That may be, but like I said it’s a red herring. A club is open because it’s open, not because it causes a slice, or not.
I know that, but why is it open? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor of spam free golf advice
Response:
Open means the club is facing the ground. Closed means the club is facing the sky. This is the biggest misconception in golf and golfers believe it without giving it a second thought.
I have to differ with you there. Most amateurs think just the opposite, and when they do hear it, they sure don’t accept it without a second thought – they don’t believe it. They don’t believe it because it looks wrong. A clubface that points to the sky just plain looks open, and intuition tells them it’s open. If it is a misconception, then it is a misconception at the highest levels of teaching. You’ll have to start by convincing Leadbetter he’s wrong If you bend or cup your left wrist so that the clubhead is pointing at the ground you are in fact closing it, not opening it as the golfing majority has been mislead into believing. If you do the same thing at address or impact, bend or cup the left wrist, the club swings up and it from the wrist closing the clubface. So how can the same wrist geometry give you two different clubface alignments?
Actually, the cupping, or lack of, is irrelevant. It’s a red herring. The club is open or closed relative to the plane of the swing. And in the context of the top of the backswing position, toward the sky is closed, and toward the ground is open. Think of it like this. Let’s say you’ve taken the club back until it’s parallel with the ground (the first time.) Call this position A. At this point, and in this context, I’m sure you’d agree that "closed" is in the direction of the ground, and "open" is in the direction of the sky, right? Conventional wisdom says "toe straight up" is "square". I don’t want to get into a discussion of whether this is exactly right (depending on grip etc etc etc.) But directionally I think we agree – moving the facce toward the ground is closing it, moving the face toward the sky is opening it. I’m not talking about *how* you manipulate it, I’m talking "plain" (plane) geometry. Now finish the backswing (until the club is again parallel with the ground) – position B. What you’ve done is moved the club 180 degrees, so the butt points in the direction the clubhead used to at position A, and the clubhead points in the direction the butt used to. The club is now backwards and upside down. What was "open" at position A is still "open" but looks opposite. If it was closed (pointing to the ground) at position A, then if you make no further manipulation (just move the club in geometric space), then the club must still be closed, but now it’s pointing at the sky. This is most easily demonstrated with a pendulum swinging in the straight up and down plane (not a tilted plane like the golf swing.) But it’s true in either case. What happens is that when you bend or cup the left wrist at the top you close the clubface. When the left wrist flattens in the downswing it does with a reverse roll motion. Reverse wrist rolls open clubfaces (they don’t close open clubfaces). Open clubfaces cause slices. So the conclusion has been that cupping or bending produces slices therefor it must be an open position. The fact of the matter is the compensating motion is what caused the slice and the golfing public is misinformed as a result.
That may be, but like I said it’s a red herring. A club is open because it’s open, not because it causes a slice, or not.
Response:
snip This is the biggest misconception in golf and golfers believe it without giving it a second thought. If you bend or cup your left wrist so that the clubhead is pointing at the ground you are in fact closing it, not opening it as the golfing majority has been mislead into believing. If you do the same thing at address or impact, bend or cup the left wrist, the club swings up and it from the wrist closing the clubface. So how can the same wrist geometry give you two different clubface alignments? What happens is that when you bend or cup the left wrist at the top you close the clubface. When the left wrist flattens in the downswing it does with a reverse roll motion. Reverse wrist rolls open clubfaces (they don’t close open clubfaces) <Snip
That’s the lesson I got in my backyard at RSG-DFW. I knew then that you had discovered a pretty interesting insight into one aspect of the golf swing. In fact, I had not heard or read that previosly. I understood it somewhat that night, but it is sinking in deeper now hearing it a second time. CA Remove NoSpam to email me directly. Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. Please see RSG Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) concerning trolls: http://home.globalfrontiers.com/rorider/ "The four rules for success are: Work hard Be creative Never tell them everything you know." I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG.
Response:
When I look into the mirror after I’ve completed my backswing I see a fairly straight wrist(minor cup due to starting position). But what I find is that my clubhead isn’t parallel to my left forearm is it someone open. I find that to make in square that I have to weaken my grip substantially. Could someone help me with this. Is there a consistent way to grip my grip…either when the club is lifted infront of me with both hands…or next to my left hip…or near my left thigh(stance position) that will give me the most consistent way of getting that club square at the top?
Meet Barry and I at City Park one Saturday morning and I’ll show you. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor of spam free golf advice
Response:
When I look into the mirror after I’ve completed my backswing I see a fairly straight wrist(minor cup due to starting position). But what I find is that my clubhead isn’t parallel to my left forearm is it someone open. I find that to make in square that I have to weaken my grip substantially. This doesn’t make any sense.
Yes it does. Are you SURE the club face is open?
Are you sure his clubface isn’t closed and you’ve been mislead? A weaker grip would make it even more open.
Exactly, but that’s not happening. Open means the club is facing the ground. Closed means the club is facing the sky.
This is the biggest misconception in golf and golfers believe it without giving it a second thought. If you bend or cup your left wrist so that the clubhead is pointing at the ground you are in fact closing it, not opening it as the golfing majority has been mislead into believing. If you do the same thing at address or impact, bend or cup the left wrist, the club swings up and it from the wrist closing the clubface. So how can the same wrist geometry give you two different clubface alignments? What happens is that when you bend or cup the left wrist at the top you close the clubface. When the left wrist flattens in the downswing it does with a reverse roll motion. Reverse wrist rolls open clubfaces (they don’t close open clubfaces). Open clubfaces cause slices. So the conclusion has been that cupping or bending produces slices therefor it must be an open position. The fact of the matter is the compensating motion is what caused the slice and the golfing public is misinformed as a result. As for John’s statement, when he weakens his grip he corrects his problem. This is right in line with a closed clubface. If his clubface was open and he weakend his grips his problem would have gotten worse, not better. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor of spam free golf advice
Response:
OOOPS ok then it’s more closed then. The thing is that I have fairly weak grip as it is…and its’ still closed. Thanks John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I look into the mirror after I’ve completed my backswing I see a fairly straight wrist(minor cup due to starting position). But what I find is that my clubhead isn’t parallel to my left forearm is it someone open. I find that to make in square that I have to weaken my grip substantially. This doesn’t make any sense. Are you SURE the club face is open? At the top of your swing, open looks closed and vice versa. A weaker grip would make it even more open. Open means the club is facing the ground. Closed means the club is facing the sky.
Response:
OOOPS ok then it’s more closed then. The thing is that I have fairly weak grip as it is…and its’ still closed.
It’s a common misconception. So, you are getting your club face closed at the top. My understanding is that it’s difficult to strike the ball well from this position. I tend to have the opposite problem – I tend to get the clubface open, and have a hard time closing it sometimes. But at least if you try hard to close the face from an open position, you’re adding power to your strike. When the clubface is closed to begin with, you’ve really go no where to go. You’re either going to hook the ball, make some kind of adjustment that leaks power, or make some even worse compensation. Do you have a bow in your wrist at the top? Lee Trevino hit the ball pretty well like that, but he was kind of weird. I’m sorry, but I think you need professional help!
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I look into the mirror after I’ve completed my backswing I see a fairly straight wrist(minor cup due to starting position). But what I find is that my clubhead isn’t parallel to my left forearm is it someone open. I find that to make in square that I have to weaken my grip substantially. Could someone help me with this. Is there a consistent way to grip my grip…either when the club is lifted infront of me with both hands…or next to my left hip…or near my left thigh(stance position) that will give me the most consistent way of getting that club square at the top? Thanks, John
If the clubface arrives at the ball square and you did not manipulate your left forearm rotation during the swing, you have nothing to worry about. The empirical final result of square is proof of everything being ok up till then. Unless you are doing something untoward during the backswing. A weak grip to bring off straight trajectory is often the sign of a very good swing! (unless it is a slice trajectory - if it is straight it also indicates your path agrees with the face alignment for "correct at impact.") YMMV George Hibbard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
When I look into the mirror after I’ve completed my backswing I see a fairly straight wrist(minor cup due to starting position). But what I find is that my clubhead isn’t parallel to my left forearm is it someone open. I find that to make in square that I have to weaken my grip substantially.
This doesn’t make any sense. Are you SURE the club face is open? At the top of your swing, open looks closed and vice versa. A weaker grip would make it even more open. Open means the club is facing the ground. Closed means the club is facing the sky.
Response:
When I look into the mirror after I’ve completed my backswing I see a fairly straight wrist(minor cup due to starting position). But what I find is that my clubhead isn’t parallel to my left forearm is it someone open. I find that to make in square that I have to weaken my grip substantially. Could someone help me with this. Is there a consistent way to grip my grip…either when the club is lifted infront of me with both hands…or next to my left hip…or near my left thigh(stance position) that will give me the most consistent way of getting that club square at the top? Thanks, John