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TFRs and ADIZ: The Final Solution

admin — Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Democrat or republican, liberal or conservative. . . does anyone here really believe the nonsense now thrust upon GA by politicians pandering to irrational fears of the public that is fostered by the media morons, would be any better with someone else in the Whitehouse? — Chris W Bring Back the HP 15C http://hp15c.org Not getting the gifts you want? The Wish Zone can help. http://thewishzone.com

Response:

Fortunately, nothing more needs to be done to get baby Bush out of office than wait for the Presidential election in November. Michael Moor’s latest hit cinematic documentary provides all the information necessary for any thinking American to make the right choice. A better description is a "mockumentary". Moore’s film is so full of falsehoods, it’s funny. Like what, f’rinstance?

Like the bit about Afghan pipelines, f’rinstance. There aren’t any. The rest of the movie is just about as accurate as that. It is about as much a documentary as "JFK" or "The Day After Tomorrow" were. Disney’s cartoon "Pocahontas" was probably more historically accurate, even though that film had the main character’s age, appearance, political opinions, and love interests wrong. "Fahrenheit 9/11" makes "The Core" look like a respected text on physics by comparison.

Response:

I thought you might like a more complete list: The footage of Gore celebrating his victory is actually footage from a party early on election day. Contrary to the film, Fox News projected a Gore victory in Florida. The movie implies that Fox was alone in projecting a Bush victory. All the network projections were made before the polls had closed in Florida. The movie says that Gore would have won with any recount in Florida. In fact, under most recounts, Bush’s lead widened. The only way Gore could win is if the military vote was allowed to be disenfranchised and only a few heavily Democratic counties were recounted. The suggestion that felons are not allowed to vote because of their race is ridiculous. Bush in fact was able to pass a large amount of his agenda before 9/11, such as the tax cut. His Presidency was not stalled as the movie implies. The main thing that was stalled was the confirmation of judges due to Democratic filibustering, which was beginning to anger the public against Democrats. Most of the so-called "vacation time" was actually meetings with foreign leaders at Camp David. Although Moore presents the terror attacks very dramatically, he himself said at the time that he though they were no big deal. Moore criticizes the President for continuing to read to school children. What was he supposed to do? There were no facts indicating a terrorist attack until the second plane. He was on TV. Was he supposed to jump from his chair and run from the room screaming in panic? Contrary to Moore’s statement, the President read the security briefing of September 6, 2001. What has been revealed of the briefing is extremely vague and gives no hint of any action that could have been taken to prevent the attacks. The Saudis in fact did leave the country on September 13, the same day that everyone else was allowed to fly. Moore himself wanted to fly on September 14, but was persuaded not to by his wife and daughter. Nevertheless he claims that no one except terrorists wanted to fly that week. Is he calling himself a terrorist? The reason James Bath’s name and medical records were blacked out on Bush’s National Guard records was because of Federal privacy laws, not an evil Bush conspiracy. Prince Bandar is a long-time contact with the US Government. He is a good friend of Bill Clinton as well as Bush. Bush’s sale of the Harken stock was approved by the company’s lawyers and no one but Moore has suggested any impropriety with the sale. Claiming that Bush is tied to bin Laden because he knows someone who worked for someone who contracted with someone else that was related to another company that was run by someone who worked for bin Laden’s estranged father is a little ridiculous, to say the least. Al Gore probably has closer ties than that. The extent of claimed Saudi investment in the United States is completely unsupported by the facts. Bush quotes about terrorism in Israel are edited to remove references to Israel. The Bush-Saudi conspiracy theory is completely unsupported by any verifiable facts. The Unocal pipeline in Afghanistan does not exist and could hardly be the object of a Bush-Taliban conspiracy. The Bush "welcome" of Hashemi was limited to a statement by Richard Boucher, who said "we don’t recognize the existence of any government in Afghanistan." Some welcome. After spending most of the movie trying to link Bush and bin Laden in a conspiracy to commit terrorism, Moore suddenly changes tack and suggests that bin Laden is innocent. Moore does not, however, show that any of the evidence against bin Laden is wrong, including bin Laden’s own taped admission that he was responsible for the terrorist attack. Moore questions the censoring of 28 pages of the 9/11 investigation. Good for him. Even Moore cannot bat 0. Nevertheless, the censorship is probably due to genuine security concerns rather than to cover up a fictitious conspiracy. Voters knew they were voting for Carnahan’s wife in Missouri, not a dead man. However, given Moore’s demonstrated level of intelligence, he himself might not have been able to figure that one out. Bush increase funding for anti-terrorism at the FBI. The movie claims he cut it. Goss does indeed have a toll free number. The movie claims he does not. Moore apparently does not realize that Oregon manages and pays for its state troopers, not the federal government. Numerous Palestinian bombers were funded by Saddam Hussein; even Moore does not dispute that. Americans have been murdered by these bombers. Moore makes the ridiculous claim that Hussein is not responsible for that. Saddam Hussein made numerous threats to attack American targets. Moore says he did not. Condoleezza Rice’s statement about an Iraq/al Qaeda link is taken out of context. In fact, she said that Iraq promotes hatred of the United States and funds terrorists, both of which facts were well known. The scenes of pre-invasion Iraq filled with happy, smiling children are dismissive of Hussein’s genocide, use of weapons of mass destruction against his own people, and brutal reign of terror. Moore seems to think that we never kill anyone but women and children. That is just plain insulting. Moore leaves Spain, Italy, Poland, and England out of the "coalition of the willing," implying that only tiny, inconsequential countries were part of the coalition. Moore conveniently ignores the softball coverage that Rather and Jennings ran of Iraq before the war. He also ignores that these anchors have consistently criticized the war. Moore’s scene of prisoner abuse contains no prisoners. Moore talks about Bush closing underutilized Veteran’s hospitals, without mentioning Bush sponsored increases in pay and benefits for the military and opening of new Veteran’s hospitals. Moore criticizes Congress members for not wanting to sacrifice their children in Iraq. Give me a break. No soldier or his family wants him to die. Moore is not from Flint, Michigan as he claims in the movie. Flint’s unemployment rate has not been as high as 17% since 1993. Persons whose unemployment insurance runs out are still counted as unemployed. Moore does get interviews with rabid Bush-hater Tom Daschle and Saddam sympathizer Jim McDermott. The only reason McDermott has not been charged with treason is that he is a Congressman. Moore has been contacted by several terrorist organizations and fronts offering to support and promote the film in any way they can.

Response:

Like what, f’rinstance? www.Rosspilot.com WNYC carried an interview with another filmmaker who discussed the film. Hmm. Could you clear something up for me, please? Did you actually *see* this movie?

If you’re asking me, the answer is yes. www.Rosspilot.com

Response:

I certainly don’t, but I *have* noticed that the most recent proposed restrictions (like the proposed amendment that would force the FAA to prohibit flight over nuclear power plants if the HSA increases the alert level) come from Democrats. In fact, that one came from Kerry’s home turf (though not from Kerry). George Patterson In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault. In Tennessee, it’s evangelism.

Response:

One glaring example given was the excerpt from one of Bush’s interviews in which he’s promising to fight terrorists (I believe they said it was on a golf course). In the movie, this is presented as happening in reaction to 9/11, which makes the audience think Bush is referring to Bin Laden and his ilk. The statement about "pursuing them wherever they may hide" is presented as intention to pursue an invasion of Iraq.

The clip you reference above depicts a smug world leader who feigns concern for world affairs while obviously being considerably more interested in his golf swing. You really should see the movie before you comment on it.

Response:

Moore does get interviews with rabid Bush-hater Tom Daschle and Saddam sympathizer Jim McDermott. The only reason McDermott has not been charged with treason is that he is a Congressman. Visiting CJ’s world is a fascinating escapist diversion.

As opposed to Gary Drescher’s world where the real reason for the terrorist attacks on the US and the subsequent invasion of Iraq was an enormous Arab-Bush-al Qaeda conspiracy to destroy the World Trade Center as a pretext for seizing control of a non-existent pipeline so that Cheney could get the contract for his old friends at Halliburton. Seems like there might have been an easier way to make money, but whatever. Gary’s world has Bush conspiring with Osama bin Laden to destroy the World Trade Center but alleges that bin Laden knew nothing about the attack. Well, Mr. Pot, still wanting to call the kettle black?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One glaring example given was the excerpt from one of Bush’s interviews in which he’s promising to fight terrorists (I believe they said it was on a golf course). In the movie, this is presented as happening in reaction to 9/11, which makes the audience think Bush is referring to Bin Laden and his ilk. The statement about "pursuing them wherever they may hide" is presented as intention to pursue an invasion of Iraq. The clip you reference above depicts a smug world leader who feigns concern for world affairs while obviously being considerably more interested in his golf swing.

Now, since you can’t support your conspiracy theory, you simply revert to ad hominem attacks against George Bush. Granted, ad hominem attacks can be hysterically funny, but I suspect you take yourself far too seriously to realize that. Anyway, here is tit for tat: 2004 Democratic National Convention Official Program 6:00pm- Opening flag burning ceremony. 6:05pm- Pledge of Allegiance to the United Nations 6:10pm- Secular words by Revs. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton 6:30pm- Anti-war concert by Barbra Streisand. 6:45pm- Ted Kennedy proposes a toast. 7:00pm- Tribute theme to France. 7:10pm- Collect offerings for al-Zawahri defense fund. 7:30pm- Tribute theme toGermany. 7:45pm- Anti-war rally moderated by Michael Moore. 8:25pm- Ted Kennedy proposes a toast. 8:30pm- Terrorist appeasement workshop. 9:00pm- Homosexual marriage ceremony for male and female couples. 9:30pm- CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN urge defeat of President Bush. 10:00pm- Posting the Iraqi Colors by Sean Penn and Tim Robbins 10:10pm- Reenactment of Kerry’s fake medal toss. 10:20pm- Cameo by Dean ‘Yeeearrrrrrrg!’ 10:30pm- Abortion demonstration by N.A.R.A.L. 10:40pm- Ted Kennedy proposes a toast. 10:50pm- Special thanks to the New York Times and the Washington Post 11:00pm- Multiple homosexual marriage ceremony for threesomes and groups. 11:15pm- Maximizing Welfare workshop. 11:30pm- Saddam Legal Defense Fund pep rally. 11:50pm- Ted Kennedy proposes a toast. 12:00am – Nomination of Democratic candidate. NEW: 5:00am – Ted Kennedy Will Conduct a Driver Safety, Swimming and Water

safety Class

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Moore does get interviews with rabid Bush-hater Tom Daschle and Saddam sympathizer Jim McDermott. The only reason McDermott has not been charged with treason is that he is a Congressman. Visiting CJ’s world is a fascinating escapist diversion. As opposed to Gary Drescher’s world where the real reason for the terrorist attacks on the US and the subsequent invasion of Iraq was an enormous Arab-Bush-al Qaeda conspiracy to destroy the World Trade Center as a pretext for seizing control of a non-existent pipeline so that Cheney could get the contract for his old friends at Halliburton. Seems like there might have been an easier way to make money, but whatever. Gary’s world has Bush conspiring with Osama bin Laden to destroy the World Trade Center but alleges that bin Laden knew nothing about the attack. Well, Mr. Pot, still wanting to call the kettle black.

What you describe as my world is indeed every bit as outlandish as your world. The problem with your comparison, though, is that what I refer to as "your world" consists of things you actually say (e.g. that Rep. McDermott committed treason), whereas the views you attribute to me resemble nothing I’ve ever said. But that’s the salient characteristic of your world: no grounding in reality is required for attributing bizarre beliefs and attitudes to your opponents. –Gary

Response:

Now, since you can’t support your conspiracy theory,

Chris, please provide the Message-ID of the article in THIS message thread in which you read a statement from me proclaiming a "conspiracy theory." You’re inference of my statements belongs to you; please don’t attribute it to me. you simply revert to ad hominem attacks against George Bush.

Please also provide the Message-ID of the article in THIS message thread in which you inferred my statements to be "ad hominem attacks against George Bush." Please also respond to my clarification of your misstatement about Mr. Moore’s movie containing a falsehood regarding the existence of a

Response:

Like what, f’rinstance? www.Rosspilot.com WNYC carried an interview with another filmmaker who discussed the film.

Hmm. Could you clear something up for me, please? Did you actually *see* this movie? Regards, Neil

Response:

George Patterson In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault. In Tennessee, it’s evangelism.

That’s the beauty of having States’ Rights. Regards, Neil

Response:

Like what, f’rinstance? www.Rosspilot.com

WNYC carried an interview with another filmmaker who discussed the film. One of the biggest problems with Moore’s work is his deliberate slanting of things by presenting them out of context. The interviewee compared it to the butcher jobs that CBS became famous for in the 70s. One glaring example given was the excerpt from one of Bush’s interviews in which he’s promising to fight terrorists (I believe they said it was on a golf course). In the movie, this is presented as happening in reaction to 9/11, which makes the audience think Bush is referring to Bin Laden and his ilk. The statement about "pursuing them wherever they may hide" is presented as intention to pursue an invasion of Iraq. In reality, the speech was given months before 9/11 and the topic of discussion was the suicide bombers in Irael. Whatever it is, it is *not* a documentary. George Patterson In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault. In Tennessee, it’s evangelism.

Response:

Jim Herring opined Great idea. Kerry and Edwards should be the first to do it.

Both Bush and Kerry are pilots. Maybe they can go together. -ash Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?

Response:

Moore does get interviews with rabid Bush-hater Tom Daschle and Saddam sympathizer Jim McDermott. The only reason McDermott has not been charged with treason is that he is a Congressman.

Visiting CJ’s world is a fascinating escapist diversion. As usual, CJ cites no sources for any of his claims, so let’s just look briefly at his most outlandish assertion. The right-wing fabrication concerning McDermott’s "sympathy" for Saddam Hussein was exposed in an earlier thread here that CJ participated in. Here’s a quick recap. (Unlike CJ, I provide actual quotes and sources.) In an interview two years ago, George Stephanopoulos asked McDermott what the Iraqi officials had told him about inspectors’ access to the suspect sites. McDermott replied (emphasis added), "They said they would allow us to go and look anywhere we wanted, AND UNTIL THEY DON’T DO THAT, there is no need to do this coercive stuff where you bring in helicopters and armed people and storm buildings. I think you have to take the Iraqis on their face value." (ABC News, 29 September 2002) So McDermott said we should TEST Iraq’s pledge to allow unfettered inspections, by taking the pledge at "face value" only in the sense of proceeding with the inspections until and unless the pledge is violated. Subsequently, right-wing commentators dishonestly quoted the face-value sentence without any of the preceding context, making it sound as though McDermott had simply proclaimed that whatever the Iraqis say should be trusted without question! This distortion then further morphed into McDermott’s "sympathy" for Saddam (whom McDermott, in reality, condemns). But that’s still not rabid enough for CJ, who now tells us that McDermott’s conduct is treasonous. CJ thinks we live in a country where disagreeing with the president about weapons-inspection policy constitutes treason! And if CJ had his way, this would indeed be such a country. –Gary

Response:

Moore’s film is so full of falsehoods, it’s funny. Like what, f’rinstance? Like the bit about Afghan pipelines, f’rinstance. There aren’t any.

Of course, you are correct about the pipeline’s not yet being constructed. Moore’s film puts forth the notion, that upon being made the new leader of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, a former advisor to the Unocal oil company, approved the construction of a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan. It also mentions, that VP Cheney stands to gain from Halliburton’s contracts to construct the pipeline

Response:

Ernie Fletcher nearly got himself shot down when he penetrated the DC ADIZ with a busted transponder. Can you imagine what would have resulted from such an event? It could well have been the end of the Bush administration. So, I have a modest (ahem) proposal. Democrats! Here is your chance to so embarrass the Bush administration that it will fall almost immediately! Each of you take your plane and ‘accidentally’ fly it into the ADIZ. Not all at once; it has to look random. Be sure to take your families with you. Then, when you get shot down, the Bush administration will get a black eye from ‘killing innocent women and children.’ The Kerry campaign will have a field day criticizing ‘the reckless behavior of the Bush administration.’ There will be Congressional investigations, independent prosecutors, maybe even impeachment proceedings. The fact that all the people killed are Democrats will make it look like some kind of evil Republican conspiracy. It might even mean the end of the Republican Party as we know it. I know that many of you have said that you would do anything to get rid of Bush, so here is your chance. After all, what are the lives of a few Democrats compared with ousting the rascals from office? Al-Qaeda have repeatedly demonstrated that they are willing to sacrifice their lives simply to get Bush out of office. Can you do less than a bunch of foreigners? I say go for it. The more of you Democrats that go and get yourselves killed, the better off this country is going to be. — Christopher J. Campbell World Famous Flight Instructor Port Orchard, WA If you go around beating the Bush, don’t complain if you rile the animals.

Response:

Democrats! Here is your chance to so embarrass the Bush administration that it will fall almost immediately!

Interesting satire, CJ. Fortunately, nothing more needs to be done to get baby Bush out of office than wait for the Presidential election in November. Michael Moor’s latest hit cinematic documentary provides all the information necessary for any thinking American to make the right choice.

Response:

A better description is a "mockumentary". Moore’s film is so full of falsehoods, it’s funny.

Response:

Al-Qaeda have repeatedly demonstrated that they are willing to sacrifice their lives simply to get Bush out of office.

Al-Qaeda would be appalled if Bush lost the election: they need him. — Dan C172RG at BFM

Response:

Democrats! Here is your chance to so embarrass the Bush administration that it will fall almost immediately!

I don’t think the Bush administration needs anymore help in embarassing itself.

Response:

Great idea. Kerry and Edwards should be the first to do it. — Jim carry on

Response:

Like what, f’rinstance? www.Rosspilot.com

Response:

Even more-better satire! I love it! — Jim Fisher

Response:

Still incontinent

admin — Thu, 20 May 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

It’s been only 2 months post-RP and I’ve been lucky I haven’t had to wear any pads. I don’t know if I can help. But I’ve always been very active by running and lifting weights. You are correct.. in thinking of trying to hold it as long as you can while at home. That is something I did once I lost the Foley. Doing the on off on off method while going is ok. But I found just trying to keep myself from going at all while at home seem to make the muscle stronger. Also at times while sitting or in bed I would try to hold that group of muscles in as long as I could then let it out…rest then do it again. Walking is very good…I would also try and focus on holding that group of muscles while walking. If you have a hard time with walking I would start off by not drinking much at first while working on these muscles. But make sure you have rest days. You don’t need or want to do this everyday.

Response:

Tom, Walking around the car show is not a very good indicator of the good walking will do for you. If you are now able to walk city blocks and retain your urine and you were not able to do so before, then that is improvement. But, not only is it improvement, it is an indicator as to what you might want to consider as being best for you to elminate the problem. Walking is good, I believe, because of what you’ve just said. You can go out, think about holding your urine, and walk. The more often you do it, the longer you can walk and the more urine you can hold. After several months, I could almost always hold my urine, no matter what I was doing, as long as I was thinking about it. Lift a couch — pee my pants. Think about holding it while lifting a couch — no pee. Same with a golf swing. I now think, ball position — left arm — back swing — hold urin — swing through — follow through — did I pee? I think the best thing you can do is drink lots of water and walk longer and longer distances while consentrating on you kegel. — Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSA .07 .05 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 10 months post-RP, and also still incontinent. But I can identify measurable improvements of a qualitative nature from month to month. Quantitatively, the past five months or so have been 2 ultra pads or Depend undies a day, unless I did a lot of walking that day, in which case the sky is the limit. I guess when I go three months and haven’t seen improvement I’ll knock on Dr. Sling’s door. My latest qualitative improvement is being able to walk several city blocks and retain enough urine to have a satisfying pee at the other end – Wow, that was something after a seemingly constant walk-and-drip scenario for the entire 10 months previous. But if I do any more walking than that forget it, it defaults to "Depend" (i.e., drops from the bladder Willy-Nilly). I’ve never found walking to be helpful, but more likely the opposite effect for me – I remember it took me several weeks to recover from walking around the auto show last winter for several hours (i.e., to get back to the control I had previous to the aforementioned trek). I do Kegels off and on, I think they help somewhat but can be overdone. I do like the fact that when I am around the house, etc., and generally emptying most of the yellow liquid into the toilet, that the voiding feels better than pre-RP due to a somewhat enlarged prostate (BPH) that restricted the normal flow (like we used to experience in our respective heydays). It occurred to me a few days ago that perhaps I should deliberately not void as much when around the house (where it is so convenient to do so) so that the natural muscle actions can get stronger, even though it will cause some more dripping in the shorts. I would love it if someone read this and said, yes, that’s exactly what I experienced, and you’re right around the corner from continence, or anything else that reflects the true nature of the beast.

Response:

Al, I just hoped it would help someone. He tried walking alot in the beginning, but that didn’t seem to matter. The only "leakage" he has is stress incontinence, such as sneezing without warning! (Basically the some condition I’m in at 46 after three kids!) Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Linda, I never thought about it that way before, since I’m mostly continent, but for my own curiosity, I’m gonna try that and see what effect it’ll have on me. May help with leaking, thanks! Al

Response:

Just a suggestion from my hubby on this topic…He is a huge water drinker normally. After his surgery, and the catheter removal, he drank less water hoping it would help the incontinence. However, he has noticed the exact opposite effect. He has gone back to his voluminous water drinking, , and his incontinence is basically gone. He does notice that days that he drinks very little, the "leaking" is worse. So I think there is something to allowing the bladder to work and hold more. Hope this helps, Linda

Response:

*Just a suggestion from my hubby on this topic…He is a huge water drinker *normally. After his surgery, and the catheter removal, he drank less water *hoping it would help the incontinence. However, he has noticed the exact *opposite effect. He has gone back to his voluminous water drinking, , and his *incontinence is basically gone. He does notice that days that he drinks very *little, the "leaking" is worse. So I think there is something to allowing the *bladder to work and hold more. * *Hope this helps, *Linda Linda, I never thought about it that way before, since I’m mostly continent, but for my own curiosity, I’m gonna try that and see what effect it’ll have on me. May help with leaking, thanks! Al Please be quiet if replying via email, flames will be deleted promptly. I won’t even read the whole message…

Response:

Congratulations! Two in a row! — Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSA .07 .05 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just had my 1 year visit today. PSA was <0.04! I had been thinking about not using the head as often – I had always subscribed to a philosophy I had seen written here: "Never pass up a urinal!" After your 1st post, I started trying the same thing. I also have seen dramatic improvement in less than a week. I asked the doc about this, and his opinion is it is just doing more kegels, so it makes sense. There is a greater risk of stress incontinence short term, but it might help – in your case and mine it seems to have.

Response:

Just had my 1 year visit today. PSA was <0.04! I had been thinking about not using the head as often – I had always subscribed to a philosophy I had seen written here: "Never pass up a urinal!" After your 1st post, I started trying the same thing. I also have seen dramatic improvement in less than a week. I asked the doc about this, and his opinion is it is just doing more kegels, so it makes sense. There is a greater risk of stress incontinence short term, but it might help – in your case and mine it seems to have.

Response:

My idea of forcing myself to pee less while at home, begun a week ago, seems to have had a dramatic effect – haven’t had this quick of progress since the RP. Last night I really held it in as long as I possible could (sitting around the house), then after the "ultimate pee" it felt really good (and strong). The this morning I needed "to go", but instead of doing so walked three blocks to the gym, and peed there, could not believe how much I was able to retain while walking, and how much I voided. So I think this is definitely one aspect of gaining continence that I overlooked for a long time, and now that I am finally doing it, it is paying off big time. Looks like my summer trip in late July, walking the beaches of Long Island, etc. will be Hunky Dory. God bless you all. Tom.

Response:

This did it. The next day my sphincter went into a default "lock down" mode, and I don’t have to think about it any more in order to control the bladder. Only a very little dribbling each day now, after having no control standing and walking a week ago. I wish I had thought of deliberately "holding" around the house several months ago, I guess I figured that the over-night "holding" during sleep was enough. I must have had the PFM’s strong except for some minor muscles that were only stimulated by the deliberate "holding". I guess this is similar to the "pee-hold-pee" routine some do. Has Dr. Walsh or anyone else spoken of the importance of trying to "hold" it as long as possible, before finally urinating, in order to make the muscles stronger for when you need it the most (i.e., standing and walking)?

Response:

I just had my 1 year anniversary on 5/21. I’m still incontinent. I was down to 2 pads/day (1 day, 1 night) at 9 months, and that is where I am now. Would sound like I have had no improvement in the last 3 months, except that when I am active, I no longer blow out a pad like I did 3 months ago. So even though I am running out of time for a natural resolution, I am still progressing (slowly), and still hold out hope. I also had done a lot of kegels early on, and then quit, somewhat out of frustration. But I am now quite active on that front again.

Response:

Tom: I am in my 11th month post op and still wear Depends Guards. Usually 2 per day, except weekends when I am more active, working in the garden, etc. My uro put me on several med’s that were supposed to help the incontinence, and none helped. The Ditropan dried me up in the mouth but caused difficulty swallowing, the Oxytrol patch kept coming off in the shower, and the Detrol LA did not help. I am waiting for the office to get back to me with a new prescription to try. He said it was in the family of drugs that includes Prozac, and the uro’s use it for incontinence. I will report if that works if I get hold of a prescription one of these days. On the Kegels, I did them until I returned to work and then just plain got busy and never thought to do them. In the beginning I was going through 4-5 pads per day, and it was month 7 when things started to get better. By the way, I drink a lot of coffee, but do try to stick to decaf. According to Walsh we have another six plus months to hope for improvement. The good book says that at a year and half that is as good as it will get. So, think positive, and I would recommend moderate exercise. It is as good for the soul as the body IMO. Good luck to you (us). Thank you. David S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m 10 months post-RP, and also still incontinent. But I can identify measurable improvements of a qualitative nature from month to month. Quantitatively, the past five months or so have been 2 ultra pads or Depend undies a day, unless I did a lot of walking that day, in which case the sky is the limit. I guess when I go three months and haven’t seen improvement I’ll knock on Dr. Sling’s door. My latest qualitative improvement is being able to walk several city blocks and retain enough urine to have a satisfying pee at the other end – Wow, that was something after a seemingly constant walk-and-drip scenario for the entire 10 months previous. But if I do any more walking than that forget it, it defaults to "Depend" (i.e., drops from the bladder Willy-Nilly). I’ve never found walking to be helpful, but more likely the opposite effect for me – I remember it took me several weeks to recover from walking around the auto show last winter for several hours (i.e., to get back to the control I had previous to the aforementioned trek). I do Kegels off and on, I think they help somewhat but can be overdone. I do like the fact that when I am around the house, etc., and generally emptying most of the yellow liquid into the toilet, that the voiding feels better than pre-RP due to a somewhat enlarged prostate (BPH) that restricted the normal flow (like we used to experience in our respective heydays). It occurred to me a few days ago that perhaps I should deliberately not void as much when around the house (where it is so convenient to do so) so that the natural muscle actions can get stronger, even though it will cause some more dripping in the shorts. I would love it if someone read this and said, yes, that’s exactly what I experienced, and you’re right around the corner from continence, or anything else that reflects the true nature of the beast.

Response:

I’m 10 months post-RP, and also still incontinent. But I can identify measurable improvements of a qualitative nature from month to month. Quantitatively, the past five months or so have been 2 ultra pads or Depend undies a day, unless I did a lot of walking that day, in which case the sky is the limit. I guess when I go three months and haven’t seen improvement I’ll knock on Dr. Sling’s door. My latest qualitative improvement is being able to walk several city blocks and retain enough urine to have a satisfying pee at the other end – Wow, that was something after a seemingly constant walk-and-drip scenario for the entire 10 months previous. But if I do any more walking than that forget it, it defaults to "Depend" (i.e., drops from the bladder Willy-Nilly). I’ve never found walking to be helpful, but more likely the opposite effect for me – I remember it took me several weeks to recover from walking around the auto show last winter for several hours (i.e., to get back to the control I had previous to the aforementioned trek). I do Kegels off and on, I think they help somewhat but can be overdone. I do like the fact that when I am around the house, etc., and generally emptying most of the yellow liquid into the toilet, that the voiding feels better than pre-RP due to a somewhat enlarged prostate (BPH) that restricted the normal flow (like we used to experience in our respective heydays). It occurred to me a few days ago that perhaps I should deliberately not void as much when around the house (where it is so convenient to do so) so that the natural muscle actions can get stronger, even though it will cause some more dripping in the shorts. I would love it if someone read this and said, yes, that’s exactly what I experienced, and you’re right around the corner from continence, or anything else that reflects the true nature of the beast.

Response:

I think this is called urgency incontinence. It sometimes happens to me, but it also happened to me on occasion before my RP. I’m not sure if it is any worse now. Perhaps with aging the bladder gets more irritable, and anxiety may also play a role. My solution is to be sure I don’t have to hold it in for any extended period of time. When I know I will be out for many hours without access to a bathroom and nature may call, I wear a pad. I also avoid drinking a lot of fluid an hour or so before I leave. Usually I don’t need the pad, but every once in a while it saves me from wetting my pants. I’m actually too embarrassed to mention it to my doctor. I know I should. I see him in 3 months maybe I will.

Don’t be embarassed about it. Remember it is all just plumbing, and there is nothing to be ashamed about. Millions of older people have problems of this kind. Your doctor may prescribe one of those drugs to reduce the need to urinate frequently or he may just suggest some ways to manage the problem. I know, from reading, that this is not normal.

Depending on how often it happens, it sounds fairly normal to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is asking my doctor the only thing I can do? gn

Response:

I had my RRP in March 2002. I still have an incontinence problem. When I have to go really bad I start involutarily going. Heavily. It stops after a few seconds and I am able to hold it until I get to a bathroom.. I have had to switch from pads to briefs to keep me dry. I’m actually too embarrassed to mention it to my doctor. I know I should. I see him in 3 months maybe I will.

I’m reminded of the line from "Lady Chatterly’s Lover" describing how Lady C. felt in the morning after she finally gave in to her passions and bedded the gamekeeper. It went something like this: "She had thought she would die of shame, but it was the shame that died!" After all the rigmarole of an RRP, starting with a biopsy administered with the assistance of that lovely young nurse, down to the final tug on Mr. Foley, my shame has pretty well died! C’mon Gary–you can do it! And don’t wait that 3 months to see your doctor. –John W. Wells

Response:

Gary: I second what Curtis says. You need to talk to your doctor. As you can see there are alternatives available to you. If you are uncomfortable talking to your doctor you may want to consider getting a different physician. Being able to openly communicate is very important in that relationship. And the communication has to work both ways. Good luck to you. Thank you. David S.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi gary – i would say that’s long enough to wait to be dry. i know of two methods that seems to help. one is collagen. it is injected at the bladder valve site and makes for a tighter seal. two, is a male sling. from the ones who had it done say they are happy with them. i operation is not very long and it isn’t a complicated surgery and recovery is fairly short. hope this helps. ~ curtis knowledge is power – growing old is mandatory – growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."

Response:

Gary, Having cancer gave me a whole new idea about what it’s okay to talk about. After worrying about all this stuff for a while, I came to the realization that talking about continence, sex, hemmorhoids, or whatever, need not be any harder or more embarrassing than talking about plumbing, short circuits, or sewer repairs. When you think about it, that’s really what you are talking about. It’s just that the general context is your body instead of your house. Your doctor certainly sees it that way. It actually makes it much easier for him if you do too. You’ve taken a big step in talking to the readers of this group. Have no fear about taking one more little step and talking frankly to your doctor. He’ll be just as understanding as we are and be in a better position to help. Once you’ve broken the ice and started talking to him, you’ll find it’s perfectly natural and quite easy to do. Alan

Response:

You can drink lots of water and walk lots of miles, but if that doesnt’ work, you’re going to have to ask. — Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSA .07 .05 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had my RRP in March 2002. I still have an incontinence problem. When I have to go really bad I start involutarily going. Heavily. It stops after a few seconds and I am able to hold it until I get to a bathroom.. I have had to switch from pads to briefs to keep me dry. I’m actually too embarrassed to mention it to my doctor. I know I should. I see him in 3 months maybe I will. I know, from reading, that this is not normal. Is asking my doctor the only thing I can do? gn

Response:

hi gary – i would say that’s long enough to wait to be dry. i know of two methods that seems to help. one is collagen. it is injected at the bladder valve site and makes for a tighter seal. two, is a male sling. from the ones who had it done say they are happy with them. i operation is not very long and it isn’t a complicated surgery and recovery is fairly short. hope this helps. ~ curtis knowledge is power – growing old is mandatory – growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."

Response:

*I had my RRP in March 2002. I still have an incontinence problem. When I *have to go really bad I start involutarily going. Heavily. It stops after *a few seconds and I am able to hold it until I get to a bathroom.. I have *had to switch from pads to briefs to keep me dry. * *I’m actually too embarrassed to mention it to my doctor. I know I should. *I see him in 3 months maybe I will. * *I know, from reading, that this is not normal. * *Is asking my doctor the only thing I can do? IMO, that’s a very good start. BTW, how aggressive were you in doing exercises after your operation? I thought I was missing something while doing mine, but didn’t realize that it took time (just call me mr. impatient) and consistency. Otherwise, not sure if it’s the -only- thing you can do, since I was fortunate to have mine under control relatively soon. Al Please be quiet if replying via email, flames will be deleted promptly. I won’t even read the whole message…

Response:

Xmas present: A tip that finally works

admin — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

People here are too quick to condemn this suggestion. Most golfers lose clubhead speed because they start to release their hands much to early. While I think that most folks would agree that creating this lag will help your clubhead speed and distance, it’s questionable in my mind whether this is good advice for most golfers … especially when it’s presented in the form of a general "tip". Actually, I don’t think it’s a general tip.

No argument from me that it’s a prime contributor to distance, but the poster called it a "tip" … says so right in the subject line. I think it’s what Jack Nicklaus was getting at when he said that beginning golfers should be taught to hit the ball far, and then taught how to be more accurate.

I don’t get that at all … seems like a real reach. I’ve read the same comment attributed to Greg Norman too, and I assumed that they just meant to take a good healthy cut at the ball, try to generate good club head speed and don’t "baby" the shot in hopes of hitting it straight. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find also that when I’m lagging properly, I’m innately more accurate because I tend not to come across the ball, and because the clubhead rotation has been better decoupled from my hands. The past two times at the range I’ve been working specifically on hip-derived power and clubhead lag, and I’m amazed at how tight my shot pattern is with the 5-PW. (The longer clubs need work. I could always blame the R flex.) I often even feel like I just pushed the ball, but when I look up the it’s suspended directly over the pin. It’s going to take a while to get used to that. –Blair "I can wait."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I think that most folks would agree that creating this lag will help your clubhead speed and distance, it’s questionable in my mind whether this is good advice for most golfers … especially when it’s presented in the form of a general "tip". IMHO this is one of the potentially hardest and probably *last* things you want any high or even mid handicapper thinking about. The latest issue of Golf Digest has a teacher in it’s "Breaking 80, 90, 100" section who has this as No. 2 in his "bad advice" list. Yeah I read that and shook my head. It may be true for some high handicappers, but it’s improved my swing quite a lot. If there’s such a thing as a progression of milestones in learning the golf swing, I’d put allowing a proper lag at about the 70% mark. At least for me. I first started noticing a lag in my swing last year when I was practicing my wedges a lot during the winter. I’d take a half swing and "damn," the ball would go a lot further without a whole lot of effort. Since then I’ve been trying to implement it with my other clubs. Seems the lighter and longer the club, the harder it is to do for me. Most likely, a lot of other things have to be set up correctly prior to consciously creating wrist lag, so perhaps that’s why a teaching pro would say hold off. But if you’ve got your posture correct, a good shoulder turn, a proper on plane takeaway, then keeping your wrist angle until centrifigual force whips the clubhead around seems a logical next step to me.

Sounds like we’re vehemently in agreement 8^). It’s a good thing … just a question of when and how important in the learning curve. Just as a point of reference, what’s your handicap … or maybe more inportantly, what was it last year when you first noticed the lag and how much has it improved since? I’m currently at 12.7 and it’s something I occasionally work on at the range but not at the top of my to-do list. Rob

Response:

Actually, I don’t think it’s a general tip. I think it’s what Jack Nicklaus was getting at when he said that beginning golfers should be taught to hit the ball far, and then taught how to be more accurate. I find also that when I’m lagging properly, I’m innately more accurate because I tend not to come across the ball, and because the clubhead rotation has been better decoupled from my hands. The past two times at the range I’ve been working specifically on hip-derived power and clubhead lag, and I’m amazed at how tight my shot pattern is with the 5-PW. (The longer clubs need work. I could always blame the R flex.) I often even feel like I just pushed the ball, but when I look up the it’s suspended directly over the pin. It’s going to take a while to get used to that. –Blair "I can wait."

Response:

While I think that most folks would agree that creating this lag will help your clubhead speed and distance, it’s questionable in my mind whether this is good advice for most golfers … especially when it’s presented in the form of a general "tip". IMHO this is one of the potentially hardest and probably *last* things you want any high or even mid handicapper thinking about. The latest issue of Golf Digest has a teacher in it’s "Breaking 80, 90, 100" section who has this as No. 2 in his "bad advice" list.

Yeah I read that and shook my head. It may be true for some high handicappers, but it’s improved my swing quite a lot. If there’s such a thing as a progression of milestones in learning the golf swing, I’d put allowing a proper lag at about the 70% mark. At least for me. I first started noticing a lag in my swing last year when I was practicing my wedges a lot during the winter. I’d take a half swing and "damn," the ball would go a lot further without a whole lot of effort. Since then I’ve been trying to implement it with my other clubs. Seems the lighter and longer the club, the harder it is to do for me. Most likely, a lot of other things have to be set up correctly prior to consciously creating wrist lag, so perhaps that’s why a teaching pro would say hold off. But if you’ve got your posture correct, a good shoulder turn, a proper on plane takeaway, then keeping your wrist angle until centrifigual force whips the clubhead around seems a logical next step to me.

Response:

Have noticed one of the top lpga players has a noticeable lag, whose drive tops out at 250 yards. There must be some advantage to this feature, or it wouldn’t be used to the extent it is. v

Snow golf!

admin — Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

glfnaz glfnaz Looks like right foot moves a lot from set-up to impact. Makes you sound smart?who cares he was hitting practice shots in back yard.

No. Never claimed to be smart. Just noticed that his right foot changed position.

Response:

glfnaz Never claimed to be smart.

If I lived where you do ,I would golf more and type less.

Response:

I ran across these old photos from 1978. A winter practice session in my back yard…on a carpet on the snow. Now that’s dedication! http://brucenewman.com/golf/snowgolf1978.html

Interesting webpage, especially the 1969 golf swing. Damn! I’d break clean in half if I tried to swing like that . Read the highlights page too. Note to self: never play Newman for money. —

Response:

Interesting webpage, especially the 1969 golf swing. Damn! I’d break clean in half if I tried to swing like that . Read the highlights page too. Note to self: never play Newman for money.

But that was a _long_ time ago! When do you want to play? Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

Damn, Bruce! I am thoroughly impressed with your golf accomplishments and your webpage! Question: In the group photo of past NB champs, is that George Watson to your right? Wow, I never knew Georgie won an amateur! I’m a nostalgic and proud former member of AVCC. Best, peelpee P.S. You can call me pp ..;^)

Response:

glfnaz glfnaz Looks like right foot moves a lot from set-up to impact.

Makes you sound smart?who cares he was hitting practice shots in back yard.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bruce Are these pics sequential for a single shot? Looks like right foot moves a lot from set-up to impact. My wife snapped them with a basic camera so they must each from separate swings. We’ve never owned a movie camera or anything. I think she just figured I was nuts and wanted to document it…just in case. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

I went back and looked. The footprints in the snow show that the pics were Not from the same swing.

Response:

Bruce Are these pics sequential for a single shot? Looks like right foot moves a lot from set-up to impact.

My wife snapped them with a basic camera so they must each from separate swings. We’ve never owned a movie camera or anything. I think she just figured I was nuts and wanted to document it…just in case. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

Odd that you let them put you on the cover of a magazine swinging left handed….or let them flip the negative….or is that really you???

I was just a knuckleheaded golfer who didn’t have editorial control. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

Dedication….or INSANITY! Didn’t your mother teach you anything, Bruce? Where’s your jacket? :-) Randy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran across these old photos from 1978. A winter practice session in my back yard…on a carpet on the snow. Now that’s dedication! http://brucenewman.com/golf/snowgolf1978.html Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

It’s hard to discuss the swing in text. All I can say is to stick with fundamentals, regardless of your skill level. Don’t fall for those band-aids or tips-of-the-week but, instead, work on your grip, posture, alignment, swing plane and balance. Keep it simple; the fewer moving parts, the better! Bruce Why is it that good players * always * say this and high handicappers never listen to this?

Because high handicappers tried this last week and it didn’t work, at least on the front 9 before trying something else instead.

Response:

Jacket?

Response:

Bruce Are these pics sequential for a single shot? Looks like right foot moves a lot from set-up to impact. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran across these old photos from 1978. A winter practice session in my back yard…on a carpet on the snow. Now that’s dedication! http://brucenewman.com/golf/snowgolf1978.html Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

My wife’s uncle lives in Winslow. We do get down there to see him and family and to hike the Grand Canyon. Are you nearby? Could always get in a round. Cheers, Brian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran across these old photos from 1978. A winter practice session in my back yard…on a carpet on the snow. Now that’s dedication! http://brucenewman.com/golf/snowgolf1978.html Bruce Another reminder why I live in Arizona.

Response:

says… I ran across these old photos from 1978. A winter practice session in my back yard…on a carpet on the snow. Now that’s dedication! http://brucenewman.com/golf/snowgolf1978.html LOL. And I thought I was nuts about golf. It looks like it’s going to be a while before those balls get picked up.

*laughing* I have hundreds of old balls and would whck them into the woods in the winter and pick them up in the spring…as many as I could find, at least. Oh, the good old days. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

Bruce, I’d be a happy golfer with your swing. Any swing thoughts you’d like to share? Besides swing thoughts while actually playing, can you describe briefly what you consider keys to a good golf swing? Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… I ran across these old photos from 1978. A winter practice session in my back yard…on a carpet on the snow. Now that’s dedication! http://brucenewman.com/golf/snowgolf1978.html LOL. And I thought I was nuts about golf. It looks like it’s going to be a while before those balls get picked up. *laughing* I have hundreds of old balls and would whck them into the woods in the winter and pick them up in the spring…as many as I could find, at least. Oh, the good old days. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

Steve, those shots are from a long time ago. Now I’m old and fat! It’s hard to discuss the swing in text. All I can say is to stick with fundamentals, regardless of your skill level. Don’t fall for those band-aids or tips-of-the-week but, instead, work on your grip, posture, alignment, swing plane and balance. Keep it simple; the fewer moving parts, the better! Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

yeah but how slow was the group of trees in front of you?bet they never moved.

Response:

Scottsdale, near Phoenix. 3 hours south of Winslow

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife’s uncle lives in Winslow. We do get down there to see him and family and to hike the Grand Canyon. Are you nearby? Could always get in a round. Cheers, Brian I ran across these old photos from 1978. A winter practice session in my back yard…on a carpet on the snow. Now that’s dedication! http://brucenewman.com/golf/snowgolf1978.html Bruce Another reminder why I live in Arizona.

Response:

Odd that you let them put you on the cover of a magazine swinging left handed….or let them flip the negative….or is that really you??? GoLow….

yeah but how slow was the group of trees in front of you?bet they never

moved.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bruce, I’d be a happy golfer with your swing. Any swing thoughts you’d like to share? Besides swing thoughts while actually playing, can you describe briefly what you consider keys to a good golf swing? Steve, those shots are from a long time ago. Now I’m old and fat! It’s hard to discuss the swing in text. All I can say is to stick with fundamentals, regardless of your skill level. Don’t fall for those band-aids or tips-of-the-week but, instead, work on your grip, posture, alignment, swing plane and balance. Keep it simple; the fewer moving parts, the better! Bruce

Why is it that good players * always * say this and high handicappers never listen to this? Grip, posture, alignment, swing plane, balance, ( and ball position). 90% of the whole deal right there. The remaining 10% just happens. It’ll put Golf Tips magazine out of business.

Response:

To be fair to some tips, a lot of them are in fact about grip, posture, alignment, swing plane and balance. It’s just that a lot of them are given in isolation, and many golfers don’t understand the big picture that each tip is just a small part of. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

Response:

says… I ran across these old photos from 1978. A winter practice session in my back yard…on a carpet on the snow. Now that’s dedication! http://brucenewman.com/golf/snowgolf1978.html Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

LOL. And I thought I was nuts about golf. It looks like it’s going to be a while before those balls get picked up. Kenny — Kenny Stultz – Troll and SPAM intolerant RSG Rollcall: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=stultzk "Golf is the only sport where a precise knowledge of the Rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship"

Response:

I ran across these old photos from 1978. A winter practice session in my back yard…on a carpet on the snow. Now that’s dedication! http://brucenewman.com/golf/snowgolf1978.html Bruce

Another reminder why I live in Arizona.

Response:

I ran across these old photos from 1978. A winter practice session in my back yard…on a carpet on the snow. Now that’s dedication! http://brucenewman.com/golf/snowgolf1978.html Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

Flat swing plane

admin — Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi Gunnie: I used to have that problem too and I thought that I was not taking the club inside on the backswing but I was. The thing was I was just concentrating on the arms swinging the club rather than seeing that it is the body turn that takes the club inside, the arms predominately move up and down. My instructor analysed the problem and even tried guiding my arms and hands into the correct position, but I just couldn’t get it. The result of this fault was that I had this wicked over the top downswing where I was hitting everything about 30 to 40 yards left, which I guess is what you are doing, or probably a slice if your clubface isn’t square to your swing path. The thing that really helped me was a video I saw on Golfspan, unfortunately you have to subscribe to view it. It helped me to see in my mind what was really happening in the swing. The instructor on Golfspan is a coach named Steven Bann, he coaches Stuart Appleby and Robert Allenby. In it he basically says that the swing is made up of three components, the body turn, the arm swing and wrist cock. I come from a college background of physics and I viewed it in my mind as an analogy of Vectors – the golf swing is like the resultant of three vectors, body turn, arm swing and wrist cock. This really helped me. My approach to the swing is analytical, more Nick Faldo than the John Daly ‘Just Grip it and Rip it!’ philosophy. I am now swinging alot better – 10 shots per round better. The video is ‘Steven Bann – Backswing: Arm Movement’ and can be found at: http://www.golfspan.com As I say, unfortunately, you have to subscribe, which costs US$49.95 per year or US$6.99 per month. I am nothing to do with Golfspan, I’m just recommending it because this video really helped me, it was worth my subscription, otherwise I think I would still be struggling with my backswing. Anyway, the following is the text of the video, I hope it helps. Matt Latty Most golfers learn the best visually, by copying the best player at the club or the course where you first start playing or watching the pros on television. Unfortunately there are a lot of illusions when we first start to look at the golf swing. The thing that I think causes the most problems with peoples’ swing plane and arm position in the golf swing is the illusion that the arms swing sideways on the backswing. When a golfer sees someone play they think that guy is swinging his arms sideways. But golfers are not really swinging their arms sideways in the backswing, what they are actually doing is swinging their arms up. It’s the pivot of their bodies that is taking the club sideways. Here is the correct arm action. The club comes up in front of your body and the club shaft hinges in line with your left arm. The right arm bends to an angle of about ninety-degrees and the wrists set. That is what the arms do in the backswing, even though it does not look like it. But if you watch this, I lift my arms in front of my body, and then I add my pivot, you will see that I am in the perfect position at the top of the backswing. Now if you look at it from the side. I am going to lift my club up in line with my left arm, right arm bent to a ninety-degree angle, then I add my pivot around my set up angle, and you can see that I am in the correct position at the top. It can be quite confusing when you see that. So why does the club not appear to go outside on the backswing. Well it does with a couple of Tour Players; Lee Travino and Freddy Couples. They take the club up on the outside and then turn, and that is what gets the club in a good position at the top. But from most people it is the timing of your turn taking your arms back before the arms start to lift that gives the impression that the club is swinging correctly back on the right plane. So it is very important to understand that the arms swing up and down as your body turns around your set up angles. That is the complexity of the golf swing, and that is the most common illusions that causes backswing and swing plane faults.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Folks Am wondering if anyone has any thoughts or experience with a flat backswing plane? By flat, I mean with the hands at the top are below the neck, really even with the shoulders or a little below them. I don’t mean an inside heave during the takeaway. I know that’s bad and have managed to get that flat backswing without the radical inside movement of the club. I really feel as though the butt of the club never gets above my chin at any time during the backswing. Shoulders move almost horizontal. There is very little up and down with the shoulders during the backswing. My results have been so-so after about six months of this. The good shots are spectacular. The poor ones are dismal. That quality gap is wider than when I had a more vertical move. I didn’t hit so many spectacular shots, but neither did I hit so many poor ones. I am a 12 handicap. So, your thoughts are solicited, and corrections and modifications as well. Also, any pro players with an easily identifiable flat backswing plane? Thanks! Gunnie

Response:

Thats really flat, you probabaly roll your wrist very early in the backswing, I had that problem. You can check very easy if thats your problem, grab a club and take your normal backswing, stop your swing early in the backswing, about when your club goes parallel to the ground (your hands will be just slightly above your belt). Now look at your clubface, if its pointing up directly to the sky, or slightly closed your ok. However if the clubface is open (pointing behind you) you rolled your wrists too early in the backswing. I found when I stop the early rolling of the wrist my swing plane automatically became more upright without thinking about it. Eventually your wrists have to roll but that comes later in the backswing and again early in the downswing if you do everything right. steve

Response:

: So, your thoughts are solicited, and corrections and modifications as : well. Also, any pro players with an easily identifiable flat backswing : plane? Sergio comes to mind. cb

Response:

Hi Folks Am wondering if anyone has any thoughts or experience with a flat backswing plane? By flat, I mean with the hands at the top are below the neck, really even with the shoulders or a little below them. I don’t mean an inside heave during the takeaway. I know that’s bad and have managed to get that flat backswing without the radical inside movement of the club. I really feel as though the butt of the club never gets above my chin at any time during the backswing. Shoulders move almost horizontal. There is very little up and down with the shoulders during the backswing. My results have been so-so after about six months of this. The good shots are spectacular. The poor ones are dismal. That quality gap is wider than when I had a more vertical move. I didn’t hit so many spectacular shots, but neither did I hit so many poor ones. I am a 12 handicap. So, your thoughts are solicited, and corrections and modifications as well. Also, any pro players with an easily identifiable flat backswing plane? Thanks! Gunnie

Response:

Help please

admin — Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi! I am a beginner at golf. I am presently learning to use woods. The problem that I am facing is that when I hit the ball, it tends to go to the right (fade??). I do not see this problem when I am using irons. Can anyone help me correct this problem? Thanks in advance! Erwin

Response:

Check the ball’s position in your setup. Generally speaking, when hitting woods the ball should be off of your left heel. If the ball is too far back in your stance, the club face will not have enough time to sufficiently close at impact, resulting in a shot that starts out right of the target and goes more right. -Dave

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My son is doing a project and one of the questions is ;- Who was the winner of the 1997 PGA Scottish Senior Open ? I’ve no idea but would be grateful if someone could help. Many thanks, Sue.

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I should know this, but I’ve forgotten (too many beers since then..) I do know know the PGA seniors open was held last September at Newmachar golf course in Aberdeenshire. Maybe you could call the pro on 44(1224)862127 and see if he remembers. Oscar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My son is doing a project and one of the questions is ;- Who was the winner of the 1997 PGA Scottish Senior Open ? I’ve no idea but would be grateful if someone could help. Many thanks, Sue.

Response:

1. I am left-handed and I get pain after hitting about a hundred balls in my elbow and down from the elbow to the hand. I think the reason is that I hit behind the balls a lot and also I top the balls a lot. The hurt continues for a number of days (more than a week) on my left arm. Any ideas?

I don’t know about the copper or magnetic bracelets. Some people swear by them, others see no effect. However, there IS an armband sold in pharmacies that takes the pressure off the tendon and does seem to help. You might want to try that. As far as hitting fat, don’t do that! And don’t practice on hard mats if you are having tendonitis problems. Graphite shafted clubs can also help, or maybe sensicore inserts if you want to stick with steel. You may want to just hit off tees for awhile. But first give it a rest until the elbow feels OK.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I have just started getting into the game of golf and I do go to the range often to get the my swing right. I have two questions and I appreciate all your answers: 1. I am left-handed and I get pain after hitting about a hundred balls in my elbow and down from the elbow to the hand. I think the reason is that I hit behind the balls a lot and also I top the balls a lot. The hurt continues for a number of days (more than a week) on my left arm. Any ideas? 2. How do I stop hitting behind ball???? And how do I stop topping the ball? I got a few lessons and I have the fundamentals right, it is just these three issues that are giving a lot of problems. Thanks already for any help. Paul

I had the exact same experience when I first started too. And even now, I sometimes get sore if I hit the mat rather hard a few times at the driving range. This is what worked for me: 1) Loosen your grip and relax. Don’t tense up during your swing. 2) Concentrate on making clean contact with the ball. If this means swinging slower, then swing slower. There’s something wrong with your swing if you’re hitting the mat first. 3) Rest. Those three things are what helped me get rid of the pain, especially number 1. Maybe it’ll help you. As for the second part of your post. Well… I still hit behind the ball and top it from time to time, so I don’t think I’m the best person to answer that. But… I will say one thing that helps me though, and that is when I think about swinging through the ball, instead of trying to hit it. If I think about hitting it, I usually tend to muscle it. But thinking about swinging through the ball is a more relaxed feeling and also allows me to trust the club to do the work for me. Anyway, just my thoughts, hope they help. wedge, g.

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Last week I could hardly straighten my elbow and shaking someones hand was painful. Seriously…I wore that magnetic brace for a couple hours…went to the range once…wore it last weekend while golfing. I dont even need it this week. I had the same attitude you did. After all the heat, cold, cremes, pills….this silly magnetic thing worked.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its not the braclet. It is a tennis elbow brace that goes around your upper forearm. It is made of magnetic material. Played 18 holes today without it and my elbow feels great. I ordered it last week. I cant believe it works… That is, indeed, truly amazing! You ordered it last week, played today without it and your elbow feels great! All you have to do is order it? You don’t need to actually use it! The possibilities are staggering! Hey! I just won 70 bucks!! I can afford 4 of them so I can play without them all and feel really really good!!!

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Its not the braclet. It is a tennis elbow brace that goes around your upper forearm. It is made of magnetic material. Played 18 holes today without it and my elbow feels great. I ordered it last week. I cant believe it works…

That is, indeed, truly amazing! You ordered it last week, played today without it and your elbow feels great! All you have to do is order it? You don’t need to actually use it! The possibilities are staggering!

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Hey! I just won 70 bucks!! I can afford 4 of them so I can play without them all and feel really really good!!!

Response:

If you have tennis elbow…try the Pro Magnetic Tennis Elbow Brace. It just cost $13 and you will be thanking me in couple days.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recommend this the "Pro Magnetic Brace". They have them at www.tgw.com. After playing golf everyday all summer, I had developed tennis elbow. I tried everything from cremes to heat to cold to anti-inflamatories….after just 2 days of wearing the magnetic brace the pain went away. I had been hurting for a month. I know this sounds like an infomercial but it really works…. As much as I would like to get rid of pain, it isn’t nearly enough to use snake oil without real good proof. Even I have my pride.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have always wondered about these bracelets; does it really work? I will check it out! thanks Paul, I began golfing last year. I hit hundreds of balls incorrectly. I would hit behind the ball quit a bit, sticking the club in the ground sometimes. I had some pain in my wrist. I have since developed more tempo and I brush the ground down through the ball at impact. I hardly ever stick it anymore. If that sounds familiar…it just quit hurting when I quit slapping the ground. However if you have developed tennis elbow or golfers elbow (tennis elbow is the top and golfers is the bottom) I recommend this the "Pro Magnetic Brace". They have them at www.tgw.com. After playing golf everyday all summer, I had developed tennis elbow. I tried everything from cremes to heat to cold to anti-inflamatories….after just 2 days of wearing the magnetic brace the pain went away. I had been hurting for a month. I know this sounds like an infomercial but it really works…. Thanks, Russ Hello everyone, I have just started getting into the game of golf and I do go to the range often to get the my swing right. I have two questions and I appreciate all your answers: 1. I am left-handed and I get pain after hitting about a hundred balls in my elbow and down from the elbow to the hand. I think the reason is that I hit behind the balls a lot and also I top the balls a lot. The hurt continues for a number of days (more than a week) on my left arm. Any ideas? 2. How do I stop hitting behind ball???? And how do I stop topping the ball? I got a few lessons and I have the fundamentals right, it is just these three issues that are giving a lot of problems. Thanks already for any help. Paul

Response:

From a beginner to a beginner…… I hang out on the range where I work. So I get a lot of free tips from the local pros (and not so helpful tips from the local players…. ) a: Muscle damage that already exists from somethng else. So look into your life elsewhere and see if theres something else that might be causeing stress or strain on your muscles. The other day, I moved a 37" TV on my own, Didnt really feel to bad afterwards. But after 10 minutes on the range, my arms were killing me, and my back was starting to ache. b: Impropper address. Your swing might not nessaserily be the cause of the pain. But your address on the ball could be. As you swing, if your address is wrong, you compensate during the swing, so you might not even knotice it. c: Tence muscles. What kind of shaft do your clubs have?, How tence are your muscles as you swing thru the ball (or ground ). Even if your grip is tight, that can cuse trouble. d: Bad swing habbits. The most common reason for pain, is bad swing habbits. Twisting the joints (flexing the muscles) at the wrong time. Commonly, I see that people put power into the backswing, then have to put power to stop the bakc swing from becomming an overswing, then powering into a forward swing…. Thats a lot of muscle work, working quickly against itself. Think aboutthe stress put on the muscles in that single simple movement….. Consentrate on your address though. As you know, shorter clubs benefit from the ball being closer to the middle of your stance, while longer shafts benefit from the ball being moved forwards to your left…… (right foot in your case ya lefty! LOL).

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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I saw / heard a good suggestion on striking the ball w/o – getting all tensed-up. I can’t remember the details, or who was talking. But their way of teaching / hitting the ball was for the arms / body to be relaxed, from start to finish, and they illustrated that it was physically impossible to strike the ball with any degree of efficiency when the total body is not in a relaxed state. And I think they started, and emphasized that being relaxed is a must for the hands, and arms. We know that a "shock" has less likelihood of traveling in a relaxed limb, so consequently, less damage. I don’t know about treating your elbow, but if I was confronted with aches / pains in the body, I would use water on the hot side in a shower, or soaking form. And too, I find _over_ favoring an injury is negative treatment. But at the same time be prudent in dealing with the injury. === Thank you so much for your help. I will try your suggestion and I hope it works. But first I have to figure out how I can treat my left elbow/arm; every time I go practice I have to take Advil afterwards and it stays

with me a few days. Thanks.

m h o v

Have you guys ever had a day where absolutely -nothing- was working?

admin — Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Doe (or is it John?) Are you working with anyone, say an instructor or someone who can give you feedback on what you are doing? I find it impossible to take something from print to the range and have it work w/o someone to bounce it off of and see what I’m really doing, as opposed to what I feel or think I’m doing. — bill-o

Response:

well i’ve had two of those days in a row, shot a 101 and thought ‘well can’t do much worse than that’, well today i managed 103. you know how sometimes you can’t putt, or sometimes your irons aren’t working or sometimes you can’t see to hit off the tee, well i was screwing everything up today, every single shot. i couldn’t believe it, i shot a 9 on a par 4.. i can’t remember the last time that happened. no matter how hard i tried, i couldn’t make a nice shot today, i made a few nice ones near the end, but i dunno, its kinda disturbing that a game can fall apart so severely.. does this type of thing happen a lot? ever top four balls in a row? man oh man.

A couple weeks ago I had a round where the wheels came completely off. And this was after a spell of playing some of the best golf I had ever played! For some reason, on that day I could not make decent contact with the ball at all, and had no idea what was wrong. I ended up walking off the course after 3.5 holes. Since I had a membership, it only cost me $3 to play that day. If I had paid more, no doubt I would have stuck it out longer. The next day was a lot better.

Response:

re: general Not only have I had plenty of bad days, last year I played with a four who managed to shoot 96. This guy was speechless. The golf swing is a mysterious beast. How can Open Championship winners like Duval and Baker-Finch find themselves struggling to make cuts and, sometimes, to break 80? It does not make any sense. That must be why those (for me, all too rare) good days so good. Joel Grant

Well the past 2 days have been a huge step backwards for my swin.g Last weekend, I was finally begining to exhibit a repeatable swing with some decent distances(160-165yd 5 iron) and hang time(4-5seconds) using a compact 4/5 swing. However, yesterday, I did nothing but sh*ank. Today, I did nothing but top balls 20-30 yds with my 5-6-7 irons. Couldn’t even make half swings work. I believe the problem was my incorporating a major swing change into my swing after reading a golf book. For the past 6 months since I started, I had turned my shoulders with my arms, thereby not enabling me to make a full swing….I could only get my arms to a 4/5 full swing position at most…my hands at a bout ear level. Well after reading this book, I learned to make a full swing because the shoulder turn was an independent move separate from the lifting of the arms. I had never made a full swing before, so it may take some serious time getting used to. Either that, or I should unlearn it and go back to turning my shoulders with my arms. Also, this separate turning of the shoulders and lifting of the arms is used in a body swing, whereas the swing I had been developing, using the arms to turn the shoulder, was an arms swing, ala Flick.Looks like a serious mismatch. Now I feel I have serioulsy killed my swing, which wasn’t great to begin with, but was coming along satisfactorily. Ironically, this meltdown happened after I read the Golf DIgest article about destroying one’s swing when one makes drastic changes, ala Ian Baker Finch .

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I was on the road, going to play on a famous but out-of-the-way course. Had been there before and there is a very dramatic long, long downhill drive that has to hook some. Thought about that shot a lot. Got to the course and nothing worked, couldn’t make shot one, really a terrible day. Got to the 14th tee with the long, long drive and did it perfectly, best shot so far in this life. Missed the routine birdie putt, of course.

Response:

@aol.com says… :re: general : :Not only have I had plenty of bad days, last year I played with a four who :managed to shoot 96. This guy was speechless. : :The golf swing is a mysterious beast. How can Open Championship winners like uval and Baker-Finch find themselves struggling to make cuts and, sometimes, :to break 80? It does not make any sense. : :That must be why those (for me, all too rare) good days so good. : :Joel Grant : : Joel, what did you decide, clubs wise. Did you buy the Hogan cft’s?

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ever top four balls in a row? man oh man.

No way. My best is three in a row ( just a couple weeks ago). I have days when I show up at the course but my swing doesn’t. It’s one of the mysteries of this game. But there’s always the next time! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd

Response:

Yeah, it happens. I usually play somewhere in the 80’s, occasionally will slip into the 90’s, but it’s been a while since I’ve seen the wrong side of 100 … except for one day this summer. Played a nice course while on vacation, although it was built in a housing development so there was OB on many holes where the houses were close (not my favorite style), and the greens were much faster than I’m used to. I managed to put 2 or 3 drives OB, 3 putted pretty much the entire front 9 until I figured out the speed a little, and sliced-pulled-chunked approach shots on more than half the holes. Pretty awful overall on my way to a tidy 103 … ouch! Part of it was a tough course I never played before, but for the most part it was just a really bad swing day. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well i’ve had two of those days in a row, shot a 101 and thought ‘well can’t do much worse than that’, well today i managed 103. you know how sometimes you can’t putt, or sometimes your irons aren’t working or sometimes you can’t see to hit off the tee, well i was screwing everything up today, every single shot. i couldn’t believe it, i shot a 9 on a par 4.. i can’t remember the last time that happened. no matter how hard i tried, i couldn’t make a nice shot today, i made a few nice ones near the end, but i dunno, its kinda disturbing that a game can fall apart so severely.. does this type of thing happen a lot? ever top four balls in a row? man oh man.

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Nope, Never ever happened to me. Never, Never, Never Sheila

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says… :well i’ve had two of those days in a row, shot a 101 and thought ‘well :can’t do much worse than that’, well today i managed 103. you know :how sometimes you can’t putt, or sometimes your irons aren’t working r sometimes you can’t see to hit off the tee, well i was screwing :everything up today, every single shot. i couldn’t believe it, i :shot a 9 on a par 4.. i can’t remember the last time that happened. :no matter how hard i tried, i couldn’t make a nice shot today, i made :a few nice ones near the end, but i dunno, its kinda disturbing that :a game can fall apart so severely.. does this type of thing happen a lot? :ever top four balls in a row? man oh man. : : : My last game of the year was like that – hadn’t played for a month and I was hitting everything *thin*. I hit many forgettable shots and scored very poorly. I suggest you read this article, just in case that may be your problem too, I notice you said at the end that you "topped" 4 in row. http://www.golftipsmag.com/content/pastissues/2000/july/placement.html Can’t hurt anyway. jmkanes

Response:

"Swing the Handle" tapes

admin — Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With all due respect to Mr. Laville, I do not think you can form an objective opinion on the collection without viewing a substantial portion of the collection (the collection is very extensive). If David has indeed seen the majority of the collection, I stand corrected. I have the whole collection. When a pro with the stature of Greg Norman (who has been coached by Leadbetter and Harmon) says that he would rather listen to Mr. Merrins over a "modern day teacher", that tells ME something. What does it tell you when he writes the forward in one of Leadbetter’s books? His volumes of tapes/DVDs are not a gimmick. It is a simple, proven way to swing a club. A (I emphasize A) way. I didn’t say it wasn’t. What I emplied was that it’s lacking. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor

David, I must agree with your assesment of the tapes. I have heard him several times in person and was not overwhelmed… BTW, I have tried to email you and cant seem to get thru. Send me an email with your current address… Redgoat

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David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor

what does this mean?

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There have been many posts here concerning AJ’s instructional tapes. Now that Eddie Meerins has dropped his price to $100 for his Swing the Handle series, I’m wondering if it’s something I might want to purchase. Anyone who can survive an entire career serving the celebrity egos at Riveria CC, must have some talent. What say you? Jersey John

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$100 is still too much. From what I saw of them he covers very little. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor

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Sure, but is the talent teaching golf or is it massaging egos and schmoozing celebrities? Rich

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Let me rephrase the question. Has anyone seen the videos and did your golf game benefit as a result? Is the set worth $100 to own? TIA, Jersey John

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Let me rephrase the question. Has anyone seen the videos

Yes. and did your golf game benefit as a result?

No. Is the set worth $100 to own?

No. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me rephrase the question. Has anyone seen the videos Yes. and did your golf game benefit as a result? No. Is the set worth $100 to own? No. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor

would loan them. I do visualize the swing in such a way that manageing the handle is something I actually work on. I’m very curious what is in the tapes.

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Not to nitpick but it was Bel Aire CC. Redgoat

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Let me rephrase the question. Has anyone seen the videos and did your golf game benefit as a result? Is the set worth $100 to own? TIA, Jersey John

With all due respect to Mr. Laville, I do not think you can form an objective opinion on the collection without viewing a substantial portion of the collection (the collection is very extensive). If David has indeed seen the majority of the collection, I stand corrected. When a pro with the stature of Greg Norman (who has been coached by Leadbetter and Harmon) says that he would rather listen to Mr. Merrins over a "modern day teacher", that tells ME something. His volumes of tapes/DVDs are not a gimmick. It is a simple, proven way to swing a club. A (I emphasize A) way. Eddie Merrins is a revered golf pro. His swing is brilliant. You CAN’T get the testimonials he can get, if you are not a quality pro. Byron Nelson, Greg Norman, Freddie Couples, Arnold Palmer, ETC. You will have to be interested as he is a slow, laid-back speaker. This can turn off many. A few his thoughts: Swing the handle, not the clubhead. Swing the handle over each hip. Keep the hands to the side of the club and you cannot slice or hook it. Try to hit the ground in front of the ball and you will get the maximum amount of clubface on the ball (and take a divot).

Response:

I stand corrected. Eddie Meerins has been employed all these years at Bel-Air CC; not Riveria. He still has had to deal with trying to teach golf to hundreds of egotisical "Hollywood" types. Besides being very diplomatic, he must know a little something about the golf swing. I need a little more input from those who have actually viewed the tapes/DVDs. TIA, Jersey John

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Eddie Merrins is a revered golf pro. His swing is brilliant. You CAN’T get the testimonials he can get, if you are not a quality pro. Byron Nelson, Greg Norman, Freddie Couples, Arnold Palmer, ETC.

Eddie Merrins has been head golf pro at Bel Air CC for a few decades. You know who’s a member at BACC? Billionaires. Huge machers in all industries. It’s like Augusta National with less ‘tude about your race, religion, and gender. Get a few of those guys to ask a few pro golfers to stand up in front of a camera and you can make an infomercial about the head golf cart attendant. He’s also been instrumental in getting Corey Pavin, Steve Pate and Duffy Waldorf the skills they need to compete on tour. But doesn’t plug himself as having helped Norman, Palmer, Nelson, etc. I don’t doubt he’s a great golf teacher, but I’m not really surprised that the roster of testimonials is inflated beyond his personal circle of influence. –Blair "Order my new, 42 DVD golf instruction video set, ‘Swing the Golf Ball’, today."

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eddie Merrins is a revered golf pro. His swing is brilliant. You CAN’T get the testimonials he can get, if you are not a quality pro. Byron Nelson, Greg Norman, Freddie Couples, Arnold Palmer, ETC. Eddie Merrins has been head golf pro at Bel Air CC for a few decades. You know who’s a member at BACC? Billionaires. Huge machers in all industries. It’s like Augusta National with less ‘tude about your race, religion, and gender. Get a few of those guys to ask a few pro golfers to stand up in front of a camera and you can make an infomercial about the head golf cart attendant. He’s also been instrumental in getting Corey Pavin, Steve Pate and Duffy Waldorf the skills they need to compete on tour. But doesn’t plug himself as having helped Norman, Palmer, Nelson, etc. I don’t doubt he’s a great golf teacher, but I’m not really surprised that the roster of testimonials is inflated beyond his personal circle of influence. –Blair "Order my new, 42 DVD golf instruction video set, ‘Swing the Golf Ball’, today."

Obviously, you are ignorant of this subject. Oh, and I know that Merrins has been (WAS) the head pro at Bel Air for decades. He is now professional emeritus at Bel Air. He teaches two days a week at Lost Canyons (also featured on the set). Realize that he was the UCLA golf teacher and many became Bruins because they wanted to play for Eddie Merrins. He’s spoken at several local and national PGA Teaching Summits. And Jack Wagner (another student) is, perhaps, the BEST celeb golfer. Remember Bob May? Don’t think he was a celebrity…

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would loan them. I do visualize the swing in such a way that manageing the handle is something I actually work on. I’m very curious what is in the tapes.

Swing the handle over your right hip in the back swing and over your left hip in the follow through. Oh yea, don’t forget to extend your right arm towards the target. The only thing worth looking at in the series is the female golfer he helps. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor

Response:

I have the whole collection. When a pro with the stature of Greg Norman (who has been coached by Leadbetter and Harmon) says that he would rather listen to Mr. Merrins over a "modern day teacher", that tells ME something.

What does it tell you when he writes the forward in one of Leadbetter’s books? His volumes of tapes/DVDs are not a gimmick. It is a simple, proven way to swing a club. A (I emphasize A) way.

I didn’t say it wasn’t. What I emplied was that it’s lacking. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor

Response:

Buy the tapes/DVD’s. Obviously you want too and are looking for favorable opinions to justify the purchase. I gave you my opinion but it’s not what you want to hear. Be sure to post a review of them. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor

Response:

I have a friend who received the set as a gift. His basic assessment was that he found some value to his game – but nothing overwhelming. I doubt that he would have spent his own money for them. dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There have been many posts here concerning AJ’s instructional tapes. Now that Eddie Meerins has dropped his price to $100 for his Swing the Handle series, I’m wondering if it’s something I might want to purchase. Anyone who can survive an entire career serving the celebrity egos at Riveria CC, must have some talent. What say you? Jersey John

Response:

I HAVE viewed the set in its entirety.

Response:

Obviously, I’m not. Obviously, you’re willing to say anything. Oh, and I know that Merrins has been (WAS) the head pro at Bel Air for decades. He is now professional emeritus at Bel Air. He teaches two days a week at Lost Canyons (also featured on the set).

He’s still referred to (including in his own informercial) as the head golf pro at Bel Air. Realize that he was the UCLA golf teacher and many became Bruins because they wanted to play for Eddie Merrins. He’s spoken at several local and national PGA Teaching Summits. And Jack Wagner (another student) is, perhaps, the BEST celeb golfer. Remember Bob May? Don’t think he was a celebrity…

So are any of those Norman, Palmer, or Nelson? –Blair "And why does Butch Harmon make the big bucks?"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eddie Merrins is a revered golf pro. His swing is brilliant. You CAN’T get the testimonials he can get, if you are not a quality pro. Byron Nelson, Greg Norman, Freddie Couples, Arnold Palmer, ETC. Eddie Merrins has been head golf pro at Bel Air CC for a few decades. You know who’s a member at BACC? Billionaires. Huge machers in all industries. It’s like Augusta National with less ‘tude about your race, religion, and gender. Get a few of those guys to ask a few pro golfers to stand up in front of a camera and you can make an infomercial about the head golf cart attendant. He’s also been instrumental in getting Corey Pavin, Steve Pate and Duffy Waldorf the skills they need to compete on tour. But doesn’t plug himself as having helped Norman, Palmer, Nelson, etc. I don’t doubt he’s a great golf teacher, but I’m not really surprised that the roster of testimonials is inflated beyond his personal circle of influence. –Blair "Order my new, 42 DVD golf instruction video set, ‘Swing the Golf Ball’, today." Obviously, you are ignorant of this subject. Oh, and I know that Merrins has been (WAS) the head pro at Bel Air for decades. He is now professional emeritus at Bel Air. He teaches two days a week at Lost Canyons (also featured on the set). Realize that he was the UCLA golf teacher and many became Bruins because they wanted to play for Eddie Merrins. He’s spoken at several local and national PGA Teaching Summits. And Jack Wagner (another student) is, perhaps, the BEST celeb golfer. Remember Bob May? Don’t think he was a celebrity…

Just to set the record straight again. Bob May works with Tom Seargent and has for quite some time. Well before his performance at the PGA. He spoke on behalf of Mr. Merrins because he was a student as a Junior. Redgoat

Response:

AJ Golf

admin — Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

A reason? I’m not trying to get you to buy AJ’s video, Rob. But a reason for why I like his methods… how about because it worked fantastically well for me? It freed me from the shackles of the mechanical "golf swing." I don’t have to think about my "swing" anymore. I hit the ball great now and the control doesn’t leave me, no matter how far-between my golf rounds are. I play about every two to three months now and because of AJ I don’t have to worry about remembering 500 subtle swing nuances to keep my golf ball going to the target . I hit about 8 balls on the range before a round and I’m tuned in and ready to play. As a "student of the swing" as you seem to be, if you enjoy that, that is fine with me. It’s none of my business to tell you to stop doing something that you enjoy. And I’m certainly not trying to do that. I did not enjoy working on things like where my right knee was and what my hips were doing to hit a golf ball. I’m a descent athlete and I didn’t like all those mechanics. They just made it harder for me. The difference between a great shot and a horrible shot is about 3/4 of an inch left-to-right and top-to-bottom on the club face. Worrying about the position of my knee is not going to make that kind of fine adjustment at 95 mph. Not a chance. And attempting to make such adjustments (knee, hip, shoulder, etc) just frustrated me. Now, I don’t need to think about anything above my wrists for me to hit great shots. If I don’t hit one as well as I would have liked, I can make my own adjustments and hit the next one better. When I practice using AJ’s methods, I get better. I don’t get worse (like I would, before sometimes). At the range, I hone and polish that control that I mentioned so that my misses are fewer and farther between. That’s as much as I can ask for. When I do have time to practice, I practice that and my wedgeplay and putting. I haven’t gone over putting with AJ, yet. Someday. Like I said, though, they threw Galileo in jail. David. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Give me reason. That’s REASON, R, E,A, S, O, N. Look it up in the dictionary to see what the word means; reason. Otherwise, it is no better than Frosty the Halloween Pumpkin, who will improve your putting dramatically. Rob Ha! Watch it first… then bring me your cynical commentary. David.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A reason? I’m not trying to get you to buy AJ’s video, Rob. But a reason for why I like his methods… how about because it worked fantastically well for me? It freed me from the shackles of the mechanical "golf swing." I don’t have to think about my "swing" anymore. I hit the ball great now and the control doesn’t leave me, no matter how far-between my golf rounds are. I play about every two to three months now and because of AJ I don’t have to worry about remembering 500 subtle swing nuances to keep my golf ball going to the target . I hit about 8 balls on the range before a round and I’m tuned in and ready to play. As a "student of the swing" as you seem to be, if you enjoy that, that is fine with me. It’s none of my business to tell you to stop doing something that you enjoy. And I’m certainly not trying to do that. I did not enjoy working on things like where my right knee was and what my hips were doing to hit a golf ball. I’m a descent athlete and I didn’t like all those mechanics. They just made it harder for me. The difference between a great shot and a horrible shot is about 3/4 of an inch left-to-right and top-to-bottom on the club face. Worrying about the position of my knee is not going to make that kind of fine adjustment at 95 mph. Not a chance. And attempting to make such adjustments (knee, hip, shoulder, etc) just frustrated me. Now, I don’t need to think about anything above my wrists for me to hit great shots. If I don’t hit one as well as I would have liked, I can make my own adjustments and hit the next one better. When I practice using AJ’s methods, I get better. I don’t get worse (like I would, before sometimes). At the range, I hone and polish that control that I mentioned so that my misses are fewer and farther between. That’s as much as I can ask for. When I do have time to practice, I practice that and my wedgeplay and putting. I haven’t gone over putting with AJ, yet. Someday. Like I said, though, they threw Galileo in jail. David.

…and there is absolutley zero information content in your post, which has nothing to do with Galileo, of course. Only a fool would spend money because a shill for something says it works for them. Someone wants to believe there is some easy, quick way for a relatively untalented person to learn golf, they can waste their money as they wish. For me, I know snake oil when I see it. Rob — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But after listening to this AJ Golf stuff maybe I’m tinkering with the wrong things… Steve Peters Univ of Cinti Steve, AJ is my instructor. Believe me, you probably ARE working on all the wrong things. Those testimonials he has on the infomercial are pretty typical of his students. What AJ says is legit. You’re going to flip when you hear it. David. Thanks for your response. There is so much info on golf swings around it’s hard to seperate good from just plain BS.

Interesting; the timing of some first time posters to the newsgroup. Rob — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But after listening to this AJ Golf stuff maybe I’m tinkering with the wrong things… Steve Peters Univ of Cinti Steve, AJ is my instructor. Believe me, you probably ARE working on all the wrong things. Those testimonials he has on the infomercial are pretty typical of his students. What AJ says is legit. You’re going to flip when you hear it. David. Thanks for your response. There is so much info on golf swings around it’s hard to seperate good from just plain BS. Interesting; the timing of some first time posters to the newsgroup. Rob

Rob, It certainly pays to be cynical, that is for sure. There is a lot of garbage out there and sorting through the good from the bad is no easy task A lot is being said about this AJ Golf, not only here, but in all the other golf forums. I decided to make a purchase…comes with a money back guarantee. The one thing i do like about this instruction is that he is concerned mostly with the impact position and using the club as am impact tool. Not too much obesession with the details of swing dynamics If you have noted my posting on getting more efficiently into the impact zone via trail arm action, it seems that the most critical part of the swing is from the hips down, rather than the hips up. If this AJ Golf instruction can better help with impact positioning, , rather than all the superfluous intra-swing dynamics, maybe he has something here …we shall see. Best regards, eric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )

Response:

what is their website? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw this infomercial last night on the Golf Channel about AJ Golf and how by watching these 3 videos you should immediately knock a bunch of strokes off your handicap etc. Anybody know anything about this AJ Golf or is it another $100 ripoff? Steve Peters Univ of Cinti

Response:

: what is their website? :

: : I saw this infomercial last night on the Golf Channel about AJ Golf : and how by watching these 3 videos you should immediately knock a : bunch of strokes off your handicap etc. Anybody know anything about : this AJ Golf or is it another $100 ripoff? : : Steve Peters : Univ of Cinti : Seems to be www.ajgolf.com . — http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=oinesroald Please remove the under_scores if sending me mail.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Saw an infomercial yesterday on AJ Golf. Any comments from anyone on this? Ted, i haven’t seen the infomercial, but have heard about it. My understanding is that these folks believe everyone has a unique swing, but what seperates certain players is what they do through the impact zone…and this is the focus of the materials. I did check the web site and it makes some rather incredible claims about vast improvement in one afternoon, etc. I also would be interested in finding out more about this instructional material as i find all of this very interesting, , but have grown very weary of miracle systems with spectacular claims of improvement in short periods of time Eric When someone who HAS profited from a tip in one minute (like George Peper, Editor in Chief of Golf Magazine, who reported a 5 stroke drop in his handicap due to a tip from Gary Smith, I think it was) – it is not the teacher making the claim: it is the golfer who is reporting on his experience as a result of what he learned. Some fixes are immediate (such as telling someone he is peeking when he putts, and which is destroying his short putts which he pulls consistently — a tip which IMMEDIATELY MAKES A TON OF DIFFERENCE in his score!). Not all fixes are "new transmissions" by a long shot! Why do you find this difficult to believe? Do you not know of the story of the retired city engineer who was called out at 2 am when there was a power failure. "Why are you waking me?" "because you are the only one who knows what to do!" So he goes to the relay station, taps one of several relay switchboxes, and next day sends the town a bill for $1001. "WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT?" "Oh, $1 for the tap; $1000 for knowing where to tap!" On balance, if you were the frustrated city officials and DID NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO TO FIX IT, would you not be delighted to find out ‘where to tap’ for next time? THAT is what many testimonials are all about. They are the comments by the golfers. If you choose to think they lie, go ahead. They don’t. George Hibbard

What made you think he was talking about you, George?

Response:

I saw this infomercial last night on the Golf Channel about AJ Golf and how by watching these 3 videos you should immediately knock a bunch of strokes off your handicap etc. Anybody know anything about this AJ Golf or is it another $100 ripoff?

You’re kidding, right? Or are you one of the UC basketball "grads"? :^) Rob — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw this infomercial last night on the Golf Channel about AJ Golf and how by watching these 3 videos you should immediately knock a bunch of strokes off your handicap etc. Anybody know anything about this AJ Golf or is it another $100 ripoff? You’re kidding, right? Or are you one of the UC basketball "grads"? :^) Rob — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )

Actually, no Rob I’m not one of the criminal sports stars, just a network support guy and adjunct faculty member who loves to play golf and willing to try anything to improve. I’m constantly tinkering with my swing and did manage to take 4 strokes off my handicap this year. But after listening to this AJ Golf stuff maybe I’m tinkering with the wrong things. I posted this same question at freegolfinfo.com and so far nobody over there seems to know much about this. Several have seen the commercial but have never heard of this guy. I’m not afraid to spend money if there is a perceived value for that money. Thanks to everyone for responding. Steve Peters Univ of Cinti

Response:

But after listening to this AJ Golf stuff maybe I’m tinkering with the wrong things… Steve Peters Univ of Cinti

Steve, AJ is my instructor. Believe me, you probably ARE working on all the wrong things. Those testimonials he has on the infomercial are pretty typical of his students. What AJ says is legit. You’re going to flip when you hear it. David.

Response:

Thanks for your response. There is so much info on golf swings around it’s hard to seperate good from just plain BS. Steve Peters Univ of Cinti

Response:

Finally, a reply that is on topic and says something. What does he say that’s worth $90?

Response:

When someone who HAS profited from a tip in one minute (like George Peper, Editor in Chief of Golf Magazine, who reported a 5 stroke drop in his handicap due to a tip from Gary Smith, I think it was) – it is not the teacher making the claim: it is the golfer who is reporting on his experience as a result of what he learned. Some fixes are immediate (such as telling someone he is peeking when he putts, and which is destroying his short putts which he pulls consistently — a tip which IMMEDIATELY MAKES A TON OF DIFFERENCE in his score!). Not all fixes are "new transmissions" by a long shot! Why do you find this difficult to believe? Do you not know of the story of the retired city engineer who was called out at 2 am when there was a power failure. "Why are you waking me?" "because you are the only one who knows what to do!" So he goes to the relay station, taps one of several relay switchboxes, and next day sends the town a bill for $1001. "WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT?" "Oh, $1 for the tap; $1000 for knowing where to tap!" On balance, if you were the frustrated city officials and DID NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO TO FIX IT, would you not be delighted to find out ‘where to tap’ for next time? THAT is what many testimonials are all about. They are the comments by the golfers. If you choose to think they lie, go ahead. They don’t. George Hibbard

Response:

Ha! Watch it first… then bring me your cynical commentary. David. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….Snip snake oil pitch… In short, It’s snake oil. Would that be worth $90? No. Rob

Response:

Give me reason. That’s REASON, R, E,A, S, O, N. Look it up in the dictionary to see what the word means; reason. Otherwise, it is no better than Frosty the Halloween Pumpkin, who will improve your putting dramatically. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ha! Watch it first… then bring me your cynical commentary. David. ….Snip snake oil pitch… In short, It’s snake oil. Would that be worth $90? No. Rob

– Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )

Response:

Ted, The best way that I can characterize it is this:

Why not give us a real example… i.e. does he teach a takeaway change, grip change, etc. etc????

Response:

Ted, The best way that I can characterize it is this: Why not give us a real example… i.e. does he teach a takeaway change, grip change, etc. etc????

No… none of that matters if you don’t know how to put the clubface on the ball… which is a part of what he teaches. The fundamentals are using the club to hit the ball… not posture, backswing, hip-turn, etc. You can do all the "backswing" or takeaway practice you want, but that’s not going to hit the ball for you. He’ll tach you how to use the club to hit the ball… which is a very different concept than learning "the golf swing." And no bones about it… I’ll go to bat for AJ and his methods any day of the week. Of the things about which I feel strongly in this world… this is one of them. It’s not gimickey or schtick… it just works and I think it is THEE fundamental. And I know that’s hard to believe. David.

Response:

If this… can better help with impact positioning, , rather than all the superfluous intra-swing dynamics, maybe he has something here …we shall see.

The "intra-swing dynamics" are far from superfluous. Why don’t you just start in the impact position and hit the ball from there without taking a backswing?

Response:

….Snip snake oil pitch… In short, It’s snake oil. Would that be worth $90?

No. Rob — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ted, The best way that I can characterize it is this: AJ is to all the pros who babble on about grip, posture, shoulder-turn, wieght-shift, etc… …what Galileo was to the people who said that the Earth was the center of the universe. Just becuase something is believed by many does not make it true. The rest of the world, at the time, thought the Earth was the center of the universe. Galileo discovered that not to be true. The truth was that the Earth revolved around the sun and was not the center of the universe.

Are you shitting me? That’s the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard. Earth revolving around the sun? Ridiculous. Cripes, next thing you’ll be suggesting is that the sucker ain’t flat.

Response:

Ted, The best way that I can characterize it is this: AJ is to all the pros who babble on about grip, posture, shoulder-turn, wieght-shift, etc… …what Galileo was to the people who said that the Earth was the center of the universe. Just becuase something is believed by many does not make it true. The rest of the world, at the time, thought the Earth was the center of the universe. Galileo discovered that not to be true. The truth was that the Earth revolved around the sun and was not the center of the universe. AJ’s methods are that significant, relative to the golf world. AJ’s right. The truth is elegantly simple… and it’s ALWAYS true… that’s what I like about it. I’m that kind of guy, always looking for what’s real out of all the crap out there (in golf and everything else, of course). And I know you don’t know him, so this may sound outrageous, but I have no doubt that he’s the smartest man in golf. And if I asked, I’m sure I could get a list of people who would tell you the same thing without hesitation. Like I told somebody else, they threw Galileo in jail for proclaiming something that we now know to be the truth. I wonder what’s going to happen to AJ. When you hear what he has to say, you will say to yourself, "Ok, now why haven’t I heard this before? It makes so much sense…" in an upset way, you’ll say that because you’ll be upset that no one told you this a long time ago. I don’t know how I can describe it better without sounding corney. It just is that significant. It’s like he gives you the key to the door that guards all the straight-forward answers to hitting a golf ball that no one will ever tell you. Well, that’s pretty corney, but that’s what it felt like to me. Would that be worth $90? This has turned into quite a post. David. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Finally, a reply that is on topic and says something. What does he say that’s worth $90? But after listening to this AJ Golf stuff maybe I’m tinkering with the wrong things… Steve Peters Univ of Cinti Steve, AJ is my instructor. Believe me, you probably ARE working on all the wrong things. Those testimonials he has on the infomercial are pretty typical of his students. What AJ says is legit. You’re going to flip when you hear it. David.

Response:

Saw an infomercial yesterday on AJ Golf. Any comments from anyone on this?

Response:

Saw an infomercial yesterday on AJ Golf. Any comments from anyone on this?

Ted, i haven’t seen the infomercial, but have heard about it. My understanding is that these folks believe everyone has a unique swing, but what seperates certain players is what they do through the impact zone…and this is the focus of the materials. I did check the web site and it makes some rather incredible claims about vast improvement in one afternoon, etc. I also would be interested in finding out more about this instructional material as i find all of this very interesting, , but have grown very weary of miracle systems with spectacular claims of improvement in short periods of time Eric

Response:

Tennis to Golf

admin — Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Maybe it’s just people with exceptional coordination and sporting ability being good at anything they turn their hand to?

I agree with this, they are the type of guys we all hate: the natural athlete. Plenty of good cricketers have the hand-eye co-ordination to quickly become good golfers. Interestingly, many RH cricketers take up LH golf as learning one technique seems to interfere with the other. Being as I gave up being a mediocre cricketer before becoming a mediocre golfer it wasn’t an issue with me.

Response:

Of all the sports and games I have played, easily the most boring (to me) is cricket. Even more so than baseball. It’s much slower than chess. There are LOTS of good hockey players who play good golf. But in general, being athletic & fit helps in all sports. Being as I gave up being a mediocre cricketer before becoming a mediocre golfer it wasn’t an issue with me.

I gave up being a mediocre racquetball player for being a poor golfer. I am a quick, aggressive, diving type player and had to pick a sport more suited to my age and arthritis.

Response:

I think I remember former tennis great Ivan Lendl trying tob qualify either for a tour and maybe just a single event. I’m pretty sure he didn’t do too well though.

I forgot about Lendl. I’m fairly sure Pat Rafter is also a single-figure handicapper … he’s been seen in quite a few charity pro-ams in Australia. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

Response:

I think I remember former tennis great Ivan Lendl trying tob qualify either for a tour and maybe just a single event. I’m pretty sure he didn’t do too well though. I forgot about Lendl. I’m fairly sure Pat Rafter is also a single-figure handicapper … he’s been seen in quite a few charity pro-ams in Australia.

he’s off 4 or 8 or something…? playing any ball sport full time has to be useful in golf.

Response:

Pete Sampras played to a 1 or 2 when he was playing tennis at his peak and now, I hear he is a scratch golfer. I played tennis for 9 years before I picked up a golf club and I can tell you that some of the techniques in both swings are identical. Making a full turn, weight shift, keeping your head down, eye on the ball, etc. etc. I play to a 3 handicap (new born has put a crimp in my golf game, but I am hoping it will be better next year ) and I can tell you that tennis has helped a good bit. Raj

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what would be the transference of skill from tennis to golf … anything? Former Australian international and Davis Cup tennis player Scott Draper, who has taken up golf and is off a one handicap, shot a one-over 73 for T109 playing as an amateur in the first round of the Queensland PGA Championship at Emerald Lakes today. Draper shot a 4-under-par 68 at the same course last week. In an interesting match-up, former World No. 1 Lleyton Hewitt, who apparently plays off about 8, is looking for experience and will caddy for Greg Norman in the Australian PGA Championship next month. Hewitt says he loves the sport (golf, that is) and might have his mind set on it for "life after tennis" (although he’s still only 22!). Maybe it’s just people with exceptional coordination and sporting ability being good at anything they turn their hand to? — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com (Also waiting for the comments about Hewitt’s on-court antics transferring to golf! )

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought he was planning on playing for the Crows! Hewitt says he loves the sport (golf, that is) and might have his mind set on it for "life after tennis" (although he’s still only 22!). Quite a few Pro tennis players play golf (Henman plays off 4 I think). There’s quite a link between the two, the fundamentals of the stroke mechanics are not dissimilar, in terms of loading and unloading and the muscle groups used. The co-ordination element also comes into it, as does body awareness (Kinesthesia [or is it proprioception?]) which is hugely important for both sports as is the fact that both are late specialisation sports. As a tennis coach who has recently turned to playing a bit of golf (as many tennis pro’s do) i’m loving going through the learning process again and am finding that many of the lessons that apply in golf apply in tennis as well and has given me a few new analogies to use in my lessons. Ash Smith

I think I remember former tennis great Ivan Lendl trying tob qualify either for a tour and maybe just a single event. I’m pretty sure he didn’t do too well though.

Response:

So what would be the transference of skill from tennis to golf … anything?

There’s a kid at my club that spends his winters down in Mexico teaching tennis to rich folks behind the barbed-wire fences…far as I can tell, you’ve got many of the same muscle groups in motion, so if you’re used to using them, the golf swing comes fairly naturally. What Mike thinks does the most for him, though, is the timing and tempo. He’s used to adjusting his tempo to adjust the speed of his shots… Prof. Rev. Todd "Runyan" McGillivray, Esq. http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ Emailing me? tmcg at sasktel dot net. "Even the Mona Lisa’s fallin’ apart." – Fight Club

Response:

So what would be the transference of skill from tennis to golf …

anything? Tennis Elbow …. :)

Response:

The best transition point for me going from a 5.0 tennis player who got old was the natural feeling of wrist rotation through the ball. Weight shift and keeping the eyes steady also transfer. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what would be the transference of skill from tennis to golf … anything? Tennis Elbow …. :)

Response:

I thought he was planning on playing for the Crows! Hewitt says he loves the sport (golf, that is) and might have his mind set on it for "life after tennis" (although he’s still only 22!).

Quite a few Pro tennis players play golf (Henman plays off 4 I think). There’s quite a link between the two, the fundamentals of the stroke mechanics are not dissimilar, in terms of loading and unloading and the muscle groups used. The co-ordination element also comes into it, as does body awareness (Kinesthesia [or is it proprioception?]) which is hugely important for both sports as is the fact that both are late specialisation sports. As a tennis coach who has recently turned to playing a bit of golf (as many tennis pro’s do) i’m loving going through the learning process again and am finding that many of the lessons that apply in golf apply in tennis as well and has given me a few new analogies to use in my lessons. Ash Smith

Response:

I thought he was planning on playing for the Crows! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hewitt says he loves the sport (golf, that is) and might have his mind set on it for "life after tennis" (although he’s still only 22!).

Response:

So what would be the transference of skill from tennis to golf … anything? Former Australian international and Davis Cup tennis player Scott Draper, who has taken up golf and is off a one handicap, shot a one-over 73 for T109 playing as an amateur in the first round of the Queensland PGA Championship at Emerald Lakes today. Draper shot a 4-under-par 68 at the same course last week. In an interesting match-up, former World No. 1 Lleyton Hewitt, who apparently plays off about 8, is looking for experience and will caddy for Greg Norman in the Australian PGA Championship next month. Hewitt says he loves the sport (golf, that is) and might have his mind set on it for "life after tennis" (although he’s still only 22!). Maybe it’s just people with exceptional coordination and sporting ability being good at anything they turn their hand to? — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com (Also waiting for the comments about Hewitt’s on-court antics transferring to golf! )