Question:
TK – You have gotten right to the essence of how I feel about this. Tiger is hugely popular in Phoenix. Would these people have manned such an effort for Rocco if it was his ball ? I do not feel it is right for the fans to have any direct influence on the outcome of **any** big-time sporting event. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Some good points Tim. Seems as we are now letting the fans have some influence on the outcome of the match….what if they refuse someone else. Could players demand equal treatment ? It reallys does sadden me a bit. You would think that players at this level would have more integrity. TK Was that amazing? I was yelling in my room trying to figure out what they were doing. I wonder if I get behind a tree next time I am out and I have some folks hanging around, if I could get them to move the tree for me. <g Really though, I didn’t know that rock/stone/boulder/pebble? was a loose impediment. 
From what the announcers were saying, the ref called it as ok, so it stands. But if I were a player in Tiger’s group, I think I would have asked for a second opinion. I wonder now if any of the other golfer’s after they see the replay protest and if anything can be done after the fact? What about other refs? Do they have the power to actually modify or overule another? I also have this bad feeling in my gut that tells me that the PGA could open itself to lawsuits by the unscrupulous that say they hurt their back while moving a pebble for Tiger. That was no small rock. Tim — GSM: Golf Stock Market – Fantasy Golf 24 Hrs A Day / 7 Days A Wk http://www.golfstockmarket.com Q: How many caddies does it take to move a loose impediment? A: None, when the spectators "Just Do It."
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then you’d have to remove specators from **any** big-time sporting event. you guys sound like a bunch of babies. he asked for a ruling and got it. it was perfectly ok under the rules as they are written. get a life and stop trying to beat down tiger every chance you get. the same thing would have happened if duval had asked for a ruling…….except he still wouldn’t have finished in the top 10……
*lol* Obviously if you took your nose out of Tiger’s ass you see that this isn’t because it’s Tiger…. The ruling is not "correct"…it’s flawed because of the possibility of interpretation of what "loose" really means. The Rules need to be changed to reduce the possibility of this individual interpretation. Once the rule is changed, it will affect *everyone*…not just Tiger. A Good Walk NOT Spoiled, Mark
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I also have this bad feeling in my gut that tells me that the PGA could open itself to lawsuits by the unscrupulous that say they hurt their back while moving a pebble for Tiger. That was no small rock.
That was the first thing I thought of, "What if one of these guys pulls his back out?" After seeing that happen, I have decided that I need a gallery with me on my next trip to Arizona. Any volunteers? — John in NJ Email reply: replace "phi1232" with "jtbigg"
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Mike I think you have the REAL problem totally isolated! It’s not the right to move it, but the solicitation of help. I think there are a lot of players who would have drawn their own line and lived with the rock’s being there. And I think you have made another great point in that getting that kind of help is equivalent to soliciting advice or using an aid! Steve AKA Mr. 79 Deg F. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He got a ruling, so it stands, but the ruling in my opinion is wrong. The Ruling was absolutely correct. See Decisions 23-1/2 and 23-1/3. Maybe the Rule should be reviewed. I understand the ruling, and agree w/ it. It’s the use of 12 or so disciples that’s troubling. How is this different, say, from calling a guy working with a backhoe next to the course over to your "loose impediment" and asking him to budge it out of your shot line? What’s the difference between 12 gallery members doing this and a backhoe doing it? The difference would be if using the backhoe "unduly delayed play". It’s hard to imagine that use of the backhoe could be arranged quickly to avoid delay. Well, *not necessarily.* :) The odds here are high that I’d know the backhoe operator: "Hey, Roger, can you just nudge that rock out of my way? Come on by the clubhouse for a beer when you get off!" Mike Dalecki
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There are a lot of good points made, but IMO they made a ruling and it stands. Also remember what happened to Stankowski (maybe someone else?) at the PGA championships when the guy climbed the tree and brought the ball down, saved Stan a stroke. Use of gallery applies to all. Peter Humble reader of ASC.
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then you’d have to remove specators from **any** big-time sporting event. you guys sound like a bunch of babies. he asked for a ruling and got it. it was perfectly ok under the rules as they are written. get a life and stop trying to beat down tiger every chance you get. the same thing would have happened if duval had asked for a ruling…….except he still wouldn’t have finished in the top 10……
s.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TK – You have gotten right to the essence of how I feel about this. Tiger is hugely popular in Phoenix. Would these people have manned such an effort for Rocco if it was his ball ? I do not feel it is right for the fans to have any direct influence on the outcome of **any** big-time sporting event. Ken Some good points Tim. Seems as we are now letting the fans have some influence on the outcome of the match….what if they refuse someone else. Could players demand equal treatment ? It reallys does sadden me a bit. You would think that players at this level would have more integrity. TK Was that amazing? I was yelling in my room trying to figure out what they were doing. I wonder if I get behind a tree next time I am out and I have some folks hanging around, if I could get them to move the tree for me. <g Really though, I didn’t know that rock/stone/boulder/pebble? was a loose impediment. From what the announcers were saying, the ref called it as ok, so it stands. But if I were a player in Tiger’s group, I think I would have asked for a second opinion. I wonder now if any of the other golfer’s after they see the replay protest and if anything can be done after the fact? What about other refs? Do they have the power to actually modify or overule another? I also have this bad feeling in my gut that tells me that the PGA could open itself to lawsuits by the unscrupulous that say they hurt their back while moving a pebble for Tiger. That was no small rock. Tim — GSM: Golf Stock Market – Fantasy Golf 24 Hrs A Day / 7 Days A Wk http://www.golfstockmarket.com Q: How many caddies does it take to move a loose impediment? A: None, when the spectators "Just Do It."
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Some good points Tim. Seems as we are now letting the fans have some influence on the outcome of the match….what if they refuse someone else. Could players demand equal treatment ? Hadn’t thought of that. Something like, I need help moving this big rock, can I get 20 people over here to help me? What about a player than does not have a gallery following him/her? Rob.
This was a strange situation. However, it is no different than having 20 people help you look for a lost ball. On the flip side of the coin, players without a gallery seldomly have hecklers.
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Also, as I stated above…would Colin Montgomery have gotten the same ruling and if so..the same assistance ? TK
I think a bunch of fans might have helped Colin move *under* the rock. ;) Scott
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He would have received the exact same ruling! But I’ll bet he and his caddy would have to have moved the "loose impediment" themselves. — Jim Brewer http://www.iso9000help.com Address anti-spammed Take out the trash before replying – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wonder if Colin Montgomery would have gotten the same ruling and the same assistance…… TK But it took balls to ask. He dutifully asked for a ruliing, and it turned in his favor. Were I playing a shot for a possible 100k difference in paycheck, I’d sure ask. LNot that that’s going to happen. <g Larry "Sometimes the ball doesn’t realize it’s been hit by the perfect golf swing." – Hagar the Horrible
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He got a ruling, so it stands, but the ruling in my opinion is wrong. The Ruling was absolutely correct. See Decisions 23-1/2 and 23-1/3. Maybe the Rule should be reviewed.
The incident was certainly one of the more amazing things I’ve seen in a golf tournament. I’d be amazed if this particular rule doesn’t get changed. I think allowing movement only by the player and/or his caddy, without the aid of any powered devices, would restore the spirit of the rule on loose impediments. How is this different, say, from calling a guy working with a backhoe next to the course over to your "loose impediment" and asking him to budge it out of your shot line? What’s the difference between 12 gallery members doing this and a backhoe doing it? The difference would be if using the backhoe "unduly delayed play". It’s hard to imagine that use of the backhoe could be arranged quickly to avoid delay.
Maybe not a backhoe, but can’t you see a market for high powered 4 wheel drive golf carts with plows and/or winches -:) The whole incident raises other fascinating questions about how much assistance from the galery is allowable. What’s next, damming a creek to allow a player to play a dry shot frm the creekbed? Breaking down tree branches to allow a player a clear shot? (Certainly not legal under a players direction, but what happens if the damage is done by the audience before the player ever gets to the ball?) Lining the fairway with hard plastic sheilds to reflect errant shots back into the fairway? Interaction with the gallery has always been an unavoidable fact of golf tournaments, but we ought to draw the line somehow at deliberate assistance. Unfortunately, all these antics make good TV entertainment, so don’t expect the PGA Tour, which benefits substantially from the audience, to be enthusiastic about limiting them. — Warren Montgomery Lucent Technologies, Bell Labs Innovations wamontgomery <at lucent <dot com
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USGA Decisions; 23-1/2 & 23-1/3, says that a player can use the assistance of all these people to remove a loose impediment. This isn’t the PGA it is the USGA talking. I didn’t agree with the tactic or the ruling but it is in the book! — Jim Brewer http://www.iso9000help.com Address anti-spammed Take out the trash before replying – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was that amazing? I was yelling in my room trying to figure out what they were doing. I wonder if I get behind a tree next time I am out and I have some folks hanging around, if I could get them to move the tree for me. <g Really though, I didn’t know that rock/stone/boulder/pebble? was a loose impediment. From what the announcers were saying, the ref called it as ok, so it stands. But if I were a player in Tiger’s group, I think I would have asked for a second opinion. I wonder now if any of the other golfer’s after they see the replay protest and if anything can be done after the fact? What about other refs? Do they have the power to actually modify or overule another? I also have this bad feeling in my gut that tells me that the PGA could open itself to lawsuits by the unscrupulous that say they hurt their back while moving a pebble for Tiger. That was no small rock. Tim — GSM: Golf Stock Market – Fantasy Golf 24 Hrs A Day / 7 Days A Wk http://www.golfstockmarket.com Q: How many caddies does it take to move a loose impediment? A: None, when the spectators "Just Do It."
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How would we react if a fan broke a limb interfering with a player’s swing. If one compares this event to Stadler’s improving his stance at Torrey Pines by kneeling on a towel… Sure glad it wasn’t a factor in who won the tourney.
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How is this different, say, from calling a guy working with a backhoe next to the course over to your "loose impediment" and asking him to budge it out of your shot line? What’s the difference between 12 gallery members doing this and a backhoe doing it?
Hey, for years here we had a company that made jacks for stump grubbing and rock shifting. Farmers, miners and engineers across Australia are familiar with Trewhella jacks. Unfortunately a few years ago, after over 100 years in little old Trentham, they moved away to the big smoke. Maybe I could entice them back with a new line of business … the portable golfing model 
Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham
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But it took balls to ask. He dutifully asked for a ruliing, and it turned in his favor. Were I playing a shot for a possible 100k difference in paycheck, I’d sure ask. LNot that that’s going to happen. <g Larry "Sometimes the ball doesn’t realize it’s been hit by the perfect golf swing." – Hagar the Horrible
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Some good points Tim. Seems as we are now letting the fans have some influence on the outcome of the match….what if they refuse someone else. Could players demand equal treatment ? Hadn’t thought of that. Something like, I need help moving this big rock, can I get 20 people over here to help me?
What about a player than does not have a gallery following him/her? Rob.
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It is clear now that the loose impediment rule will have to be amended to read that the impediment must be moved by the player or his caddie. What took place, in my opinion, was not a breach of the rules, but it was a breach of sportsmanship. Gerry
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Q: How many caddies does it take to move a loose impediment? A: None, when the spectators "Just Do It."
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Was that amazing? I was yelling in my room trying to figure out what they were doing. I wonder if I get behind a tree next time I am out and I have some folks hanging around, if I could get them to move the tree for me. <g Really though, I didn’t know that rock/stone/boulder/pebble? was a loose impediment. From what the announcers were saying, the ref called it as ok, so it stands. But if I were a player in Tiger’s group, I think I would have asked for a second opinion. I wonder now if any of the other golfer’s after they see the replay protest and if anything can be done after the fact? What about other refs? Do they have the power to actually modify or overule another? I also have this bad feeling in my gut that tells me that the PGA could open itself to lawsuits by the unscrupulous that say they hurt their back while moving a pebble for Tiger. That was no small rock. Tim — GSM: Golf Stock Market – Fantasy Golf 24 Hrs A Day / 7 Days A Wk http://www.golfstockmarket.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Q: How many caddies does it take to move a loose impediment? A: None, when the spectators "Just Do It."
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I didn’t mind the interpretation that he could move the boulder (I agree with that). What I minded was using a dozen or so people from the gallery to move it! It seems to me that using the gallery to move the boulder is akin to soliciting advice from someone, or using a laser-range-finder. If not EVERYONE can do it, then NOBODY should be able to do it. I like Tiger as much as anybody (please, this isn’t an anti-Tiger post), but I think this violates equity. He got a ruling, so it stands, but the ruling in my opinion is wrong. Tiger should have been able to move the boulder; I have no problem with that. The problem is that it should have been *Tiger* moving it, and Tiger alone. How is this different, say, from calling a guy working with a backhoe next to the course over to your "loose impediment" and asking him to budge it out of your shot line? What’s the difference between 12 gallery members doing this and a backhoe doing it? Oh well, at least we have a new thread to take our minds off "Who is the best golfer in the world." Mike Dalecki PS: I think I’ll bring along a tow-cable to hook to the cart whenever I ride. You never know when you’ll need to pull a rock out of the way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Q: How many caddies does it take to move a loose impediment? A: None, when the spectators "Just Do It."
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He got a ruling, so it stands, but the ruling in my opinion is wrong.
The Ruling was absolutely correct. See Decisions 23-1/2 and 23-1/3. Maybe the Rule should be reviewed. How is this different, say, from calling a guy working with a backhoe next to the course over to your "loose impediment" and asking him to budge it out of your shot line? What’s the difference between 12 gallery members doing this and a backhoe doing it?
The difference would be if using the backhoe "unduly delayed play". It’s hard to imagine that use of the backhoe could be arranged quickly to avoid delay.
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Some good points Tim. Seems as we are now letting the fans have some influence on the outcome of the match….what if they refuse someone else. Could players demand equal treatment ? It reallys does sadden me a bit. You would think that players at this level would have more integrity. TK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was that amazing? I was yelling in my room trying to figure out what they were doing. I wonder if I get behind a tree next time I am out and I have some folks hanging around, if I could get them to move the tree for me. <g Really though, I didn’t know that rock/stone/boulder/pebble? was a loose impediment. From what the announcers were saying, the ref called it as ok, so it stands. But if I were a player in Tiger’s group, I think I would have asked for a second opinion. I wonder now if any of the other golfer’s after they see the replay protest and if anything can be done after the fact? What about other refs? Do they have the power to actually modify or overule another? I also have this bad feeling in my gut that tells me that the PGA could open itself to lawsuits by the unscrupulous that say they hurt their back while moving a pebble for Tiger. That was no small rock. Tim — GSM: Golf Stock Market – Fantasy Golf 24 Hrs A Day / 7 Days A Wk http://www.golfstockmarket.com Q: How many caddies does it take to move a loose impediment? A: None, when the spectators "Just Do It."
Response:
Some good points Tim. Seems as we are now letting the fans have some influence on the outcome of the match….what if they refuse someone else. Could players demand equal treatment ?
Hadn’t thought of that. Something like, I need help moving this big rock, can I get 20 people over here to help me? It reallys does sadden me a bit. You would think that players at this level would have more integrity.
We have to remember, Tiger asked for relief and a ruling; and got it. He took advantage of the ruling and took relief by moving the pebble out of the way. He really did nothing wrong since it was an official ruling to allow this and no other player in the group objected. — GSM: Golf Stock Market – Fantasy Golf 24 Hrs A Day / 7 Days A Wk http://www.golfstockmarket.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was that amazing? I was yelling in my room trying to figure out what they were doing. I wonder if I get behind a tree next time I am out and I have some folks hanging around, if I could get them to move the tree for me. <g Really though, I didn’t know that rock/stone/boulder/pebble? was a loose impediment. From what the announcers were saying, the ref called it as ok, so it stands. But if I were a player in Tiger’s group, I think I would have asked for a second opinion. I wonder now if any of the other golfer’s after they see the replay protest and if anything can be done after the fact? What about other refs? Do they have the power to actually modify or overule another? I also have this bad feeling in my gut that tells me that the PGA could open itself to lawsuits by the unscrupulous that say they hurt their back while moving a pebble for Tiger. That was no small rock. Tim — GSM: Golf Stock Market – Fantasy Golf 24 Hrs A Day / 7 Days A Wk http://www.golfstockmarket.com Q: How many caddies does it take to move a loose impediment? A: None, when the spectators "Just Do It."
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I wonder if Colin Montgomery would have gotten the same ruling and the same assistance…… TK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But it took balls to ask. He dutifully asked for a ruliing, and it turned in his favor. Were I playing a shot for a possible 100k difference in paycheck, I’d sure ask. LNot that that’s going to happen. <g Larry "Sometimes the ball doesn’t realize it’s been hit by the perfect golf swing." – Hagar the Horrible
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Also, as I stated above…would Colin Montgomery have gotten the same ruling and if so..the same assistance ? TK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some good points Tim. Seems as we are now letting the fans have some influence on the outcome of the match….what if they refuse someone else. Could players demand equal treatment ? It reallys does sadden me a bit. You would think that players at this level would have more integrity. TK Was that amazing? I was yelling in my room trying to figure out what they were doing. I wonder if I get behind a tree next time I am out and I have some folks hanging around, if I could get them to move the tree for me. <g Really though, I didn’t know that rock/stone/boulder/pebble? was a loose impediment. From what the announcers were saying, the ref called it as ok, so it stands. But if I were a player in Tiger’s group, I think I would have asked for a second opinion. I wonder now if any of the other golfer’s after they see the replay protest and if anything can be done after the fact? What about other refs? Do they have the power to actually modify or overule another? I also have this bad feeling in my gut that tells me that the PGA could open itself to lawsuits by the unscrupulous that say they hurt their back while moving a pebble for Tiger. That was no small rock. Tim — GSM: Golf Stock Market – Fantasy Golf 24 Hrs A Day / 7 Days A Wk http://www.golfstockmarket.com Q: How many caddies does it take to move a loose impediment? A: None, when the spectators "Just Do It."
Response:
He got a ruling, so it stands, but the ruling in my opinion is wrong. The Ruling was absolutely correct. See Decisions 23-1/2 and 23-1/3. Maybe the Rule should be reviewed.
I understand the ruling, and agree w/ it. It’s the use of 12 or so disciples that’s troubling. How is this different, say, from calling a guy working with a backhoe next to the course over to your "loose impediment" and asking him to budge it out of your shot line? What’s the difference between 12 gallery members doing this and a backhoe doing it? The difference would be if using the backhoe "unduly delayed play". It’s hard to imagine that use of the backhoe could be arranged quickly to avoid delay.
Well, *not necessarily.* :) The odds here are high that I’d know the backhoe operator: "Hey, Roger, can you just nudge that rock out of my way? Come on by the clubhouse for a beer when you get off!" Mike Dalecki