Question:

Mike, Sometimes they just ask for it though…not pot shots then… (Here, use my rifle while I reload yours.) I only meant that I would not take freebies when not warranted.  I didn’t mean to imply that there were no occasions when the salvos were not justified.

I hope the rest of the gang follow your example. BTW, how often do they behave that way towards each other?  Is it usually targeted at relative RSG newbies?  A kind of initiation? LOL As I said, this group does have a reputation…I’m sure it’s only a few individual….but it only takes one or two bad apples and some sheep as they say.  Great group on the whole actually and right up my street at the mo given the amount of time I’m spending on golf when I should be doing other things.. .. I’m English so the exchanges we witness may *appear* to me much worse than they really are!??!…different cultures… doesn’t bother me in the least…and if there is a downside it’s far outweighed by the upside…. — Felicity

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I wonder why most anti-George posts like this one (?) have a sig containing the words "Clique", "Role Call.." etc all that kind of sport these sigs a bad name???

    So who’s this George guy, anyway?     … Tom     No RSG #

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<Self-aggrandizing crap snipped I had a good laugh at your response, George.  

I have him killfiled. I put the final comment in because my post was descriptive of what I am trying, and maybe someone else in my position (12.1 index at the moment) may see something in common. GH really has nothing to add, but I knew he would pipe in with some long diatribe about how he knows all, sees all, etc., to try to indicate that my journey somehow is interelated with his teaching (like he does with any and all swing related posts), which is absolutely false (I have never met GH, I don’t read his posts, and thus I have never followed his advice), so I just wanted it to be known that my purpose in posting was not to be a straight man for GH. I have read many golf books, taken many lessons, etc., and could probably write a book (it’s real easy these days) and make a video, and burden this newsgroup with comments on any swing related post that could be supported in the golf literature, as I’m sure many of us can, but don’t; which is at least a "rub"! Rob

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Rick, Does this mean that we won’t be going over to see George during the Greater Ocala RSG event ?    don

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – GH really has nothing of value to add here. Rob It certainly didn’t stop him from trying. I just knew he would dredge up some self-serving crap from his sump and re-display it. Clip Yeah, how obstreperous it is of GH to refute Rob’s slander you quote here! How dare he speak up for himself? [Just go away, GH, and crawl under a log so the MD and RH and RR fanclub can gossip and make totally gratuitous cracks about you, patently untrue when the cards are all exposed on the table.. Don't want to hear from me?  Then speak truth and get a life. Who records the minutes of your meetings?  How much is taken up with "slam GH" ? Go to where they send people like you. George

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<Self-aggrandizing crap snipped

Mike doesn't like George you know!!! I had a good laugh at your response, George.  I think it mightily humorous that you imply anyone would have sifted through all your posts looking for that one tidbit to turn their game around.

I've told George.. not to keep forgetting to sprinkle a few smileys here and there.. Do you really think Rob, or I, or anyone else (save for one correspondent from England) actually reads everything you write?

You're referring to me I think;  I feel quite sure that George knows pretty much what he is talking about when it comes to the golf swing, and so I would like to read *all* of his posts on the subject.  However, as I have told George, I do find many of them far tooooo long for me personally..so I often close many of them with the intention of returning to them..but too often they expire on me first. BTW I wouldn't like the readers to get the impression from your words that no-one else has at least a reasonably high regard for George's thoughts on the golf swing.  It's obvious from what I have read that many have....I think Randy (?) was the most recent I read to indicate that....but by the same token there do seem to be communication problems, probably on all sides, in attempting to describe mechanics.  I notice that sometimes people can appear to be quite polarised when in the end they're actually talking about the virtually same thing, but maybe just disagree on interpretation..or degree etc..etc.. ---snip Hope you're enjoying the Vac. Back to campus soon I assume? -- Felicity

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M.D., don't aggravate him, please.  Sometimes, you must read or at least scan his posts to follow the thread.  When someone someone aggravates him, the threads become extremely tedious to follow and very long - and they never die.  Granted, I'm being very selfish here.  But ... I respond to his posts when I see something and *feel* I absolutely have to ... I respond only once, however, no more "discussion". - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - <Self-aggrandizing crap snipped I had a good laugh at your response, George.  I think it mightily humorous that you imply anyone would have sifted through all your posts looking for that one tidbit to turn their game around. Do you really think Rob, or I, or anyone else (save for one correspondent from England) actually reads everything you write? I gave up on your "teaching" a long time ago.  You avoided questions I asked, were inconsistent and contradictory, and so confusing as a communicator that I realized I'd likely not learn much from you. Because of that, I don't read most of what you write.  I don't have you killfiled, but I just pass most of it up.  Thus, you should be sure to never accuse *me* of missing something you've written.  Of course I will have missed it--I don't read most of what you write.  The only reason I read this thread was because Rob initiated it. Meanwhile, you've now posted SO MUCH material that I'm sure you can point to anything anyone says here and say "I've said that before" and dredge up some comment or line from some post somewhere. The question of the day, of course, is why people don't get it the first time you "explain" it.  I strongly suspect the problem is not with being ready to hear the message, either. So, for Rob, I enjoyed your post and how you adjusted your swing.  For George, "I told you so" rings hollow, as it always seems to. Mike Mike Dalecki--Charter Member, RSG Clique I do not patronize spammers!  Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call:  http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm

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You only made Mike's point Felicity.

LOL -- Felicity

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---snip - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -Mark, You are absolutely correct, and thank you for the reality check. I thought of the same thing. Unfortunately it was after I posted my snippy reply. It is too easy to take pot shots at obvious targets.  I will try to restrain my impulsive urges to snipe, at George or anyone else,  in order to help restore a bit of decorum to this group.  It has become a shooting gallery at times, with the ammo directed at only a few targets that must feel as if they have been hit with the St. Valentine's Day massacre by now. My apologies to those that have absorbed my impulsive salvos.

I like it when someone is man enough to hold up his hands! Well done Rick!   -- Felicity

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<SNIP It has become a shooting gallery at times, with the ammo directed at only a few targets that must feel as if they have been hit with the St. Valentine's Day massacre by now.

Rick: There's a REASON those few people have had to absorb such "shots" by others, and the fault doesn't lie in those taking the shots. You reap what you sow. Mike Mike Dalecki--Charter Member, RSG Clique I do not patronize spammers!  Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call:  http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm

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--snip There's a REASON those few people have had to absorb such "shots" by others, and the fault doesn't lie in those taking the shots. You reap what you sow.

In the school playground? Wannbe be in my gang, *my* gang, *MY* gang? There's some great people in here, but why has this group got a reputation for this kind of behaviour amongst subscribers to uk.sport.golf?  I told you what one member said to me recently...something like.. (in rsg)..upset one of them and all hell breaks loose!!!! Give me a break! Live and let live.

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - <SNIP It has become a shooting gallery at times, with the ammo directed at only a few targets that must feel as if they have been hit with the St. Valentine's Day massacre by now. Rick: There's a REASON those few people have had to absorb such "shots" by others, and the fault doesn't lie in those taking the shots. You reap what you sow. Mike

You'd be a neat lawyer for the defense in a rape case, Mike.  Blame the victim.  "She made me do it because she tempted me.  So I had to take advantage.  My behavior is innocent because temptation is stronger than character!  What does honesty have to do with anything?  Win at all costs!" Works in front of a jury of your piers [sic] (read, "wood sticks). Different strokes for different folks.

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Don’t let them get to you George…we think there are some right twits mingling here amongst the majority..?

Indeed there are. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

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 Well, I guess I will have to try the "erect chest" thing Jim

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GH really has nothing of value to add here. Rob It certainly didn’t stop him from trying.   I just knew he would dredge up some self-serving crap from his sump and re-display it.

did the originator of the thread have to throw out a challenge to GH that he would have ‘nothing of value to add’. Would any of you have stood by and let that one go unanswered if it was directed to you? well Rob was right apparently,  GH did have nothing of value to add, because apparently it was already stated.  how ironic. — regards       ‘                   .  .                        |18                      .         ‘ .                   |        O         .                 ‘o                |               .                                      |         /    .                                        |        / /  .’                                         | RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/blakem.htm

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I wonder why most anti-George posts like this one (?) have a sig containing the words "Clique", "Role Call.." etc all that kind of sport these sigs a bad name??? Don’t let them get to you George…we think there are some right twits mingling here amongst the majority..? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are not aware of my posts about the "platform" of the chest in support of the hands and arms to keep them from falling? Or of the points about erect posture — same thing? Where have you been? Of course, George, we all have countless hours of the day to sift through your posts gleaning your long, convoluted words of wisdom about the swing. Most people here probably don’t even open your posts, let alone take a cursory look. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

– Felicity Lodge

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I wonder why most anti-George posts like this one (?) have a sig containing the words "Clique", "Role Call.." etc all that kind of sport these sigs a bad name???

His point was nevertheless a valid one in that few of us have the time to read through all of George’s lengthy posts to ferret out what bit of them may be of use to us. I’ve skipped most of the because (1) swing mechanics aren’t of particular interest to me as far as discussion, and (2) his insistence on interspersing upper case words in the middle of sentences is something that I find distracting and annoying. The inclusion of the "Role [sic] Call" line in many of our sig lines simply gives you a place to look and learn a bit more about the person posting, i.e., where they live, what they do for a living, what equipment they use, their particular interests and aspirations for golf, etc. If you go to the Roll Call home page, you’ll also find a great many people listed there who either aren’t currently participating in RSG or haven’t spoken up one way or the other on the ongoing GH flame-o-ramas.

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You are not aware of my posts about the "platform" of the chest in support of the hands and arms to keep them from falling? Or of the points about erect posture — same thing? Where have you been?

Of course, George, we all have countless hours of the day to sift through your posts gleaning your long, convoluted words of wisdom about the swing. Most people here probably don’t even open your posts, let alone take a cursory look. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Self-aggrandizing crap snipped I had a good laugh at your response, George.  I think it mightily humorous that you imply anyone would have sifted through all your posts looking for that one tidbit to turn their game around. Do you really think Rob, or I, or anyone else (save for one correspondent from England) actually reads everything you write? I gave up on your "teaching" a long time ago.  You avoided questions I asked, were inconsistent and contradictory, and so confusing as a communicator that I realized I’d likely not learn much from you. Because of that, I don’t read most of what you write.  I don’t have you killfiled, but I just pass most of it up.  Thus, you should be sure to never accuse *me* of missing something you’ve written.  Of course I will have missed it–I don’t read most of what you write.  The only reason I read this thread was because Rob initiated it. Meanwhile, you’ve now posted SO MUCH material that I’m sure you can point to anything anyone says here and say "I’ve said that before" and dredge up some comment or line from some post somewhere. The question of the day, of course, is why people don’t get it the first time you "explain" it.  I strongly suspect the problem is not with being ready to hear the message, either. So, for Rob, I enjoyed your post and how you adjusted your swing.  For George, "I told you so" rings hollow, as it always seems to. Mike

Thank you for your usual "knock George" post, Mike.  The contribution is so much appreciated by your fans.  Methinks thou protesteth a huge much!  What IS your underlying problem, Mike? I would not have replied except Rob slammed me in his post as contributing nothing. Within a week of what I consider to be pretty clear on the exact point he picked up from TGC.  So I showed him that he was mistaken, that I had, as recently as the 28th of Dec., addressed exactly that point in the same way. As I said, the theme has occurred many times in my posts, not once, but since you don’t read me, or when you do and those messages go over your head as you previously reported here, it is understandable you missed it and are so facile with your intimation that I had to "dredge up" the comment on point  – some "tidbit"…  As I write this I am reminded that on probably five occasions in the past month I have offered the exact same tip or thought to people asking about toe impact and similar swing and impact problems, each time mentioning the erectness of the chest, the platform, the support under the arms, and the effects of gravity and the swing DOWN as the problem.  Much more than a word or two – a serious explanation of symptom, cause, and correction. I don’t buy your explanation.  You manage to "read" me when you wish to be critical, and "not read" me when you have no reply.  An interesting talent called "selective hearing", similar to that which husbands often acquire over years of marriage… You have no way of knowing I had posted on the topic if you do NOT read me, so without reading me, your slap is judgmental. If you did read me [and you say you didn't], you WOULD have seen the posts. Both sides of your mouth.  See how your own words reveal your hypocrisy! Have a good day. Actually, I don’t know if I DO want you to have a good day.  Your disposition stinks, to say nothing of your honesty. George

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GH really has nothing of value to add here. Rob It certainly didn’t stop him from trying. I just knew he would dredge up some self-serving crap from his sump and

re-display it. Clip Yeah, how obstreperous it is of GH to refute Rob’s slander you quote here! How dare he speak up for himself? [Just go away, GH, and crawl under a log so the MD and RH and RR fanclub can gossip and make totally gratuitous cracks about you, patently untrue when the cards are all exposed on the table.. Don't want to hear from me?  Then speak truth and get a life. Who records the minutes of your meetings?  How much is taken up with "slam GH" ? Go to where they send people like you. George - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - A lot of things have started working for me lately, staying behind the ball, controlling my right side, grip pressure and swingspeed; but I still have a tendancy to hit the ball fat for no reason that I can fathom. The other night I woke up in the middle of the night, and, as usualy, TGC was on; Golf Academy. Some guy I have never seen before was talking about something related to spine position (which I think is the cause of my fat shots) and told someone to "stick their chest out" at address, and stay "tall" throughout the swing. So I tried this, out in the freezing cold (at a driving range that never closes!), and it worked great for me. The only times I hit the ball fat was when I slumped a little with my chest. Sticking the chest out straightens the spine, with obvious benefits (a more stable axis for your shoulders to rest on and rotate around). I still keep my shoulders rounded and relaxed. I still keep my arms in front of me. If you find that you can really stick your chest out, you are probably too hunched over, and the curved spine adds another variable that is hard to control during your swing. Straighten the spine, and you have one less thing to worry about! GH really has nothing of value to add here. Rob You are not aware of my posts about the "platform" of the chest in support of the hands and arms to keep them from falling?  Or of the points about erect posture -- same thing? Where have you been?

To save your time I have located two of the messages on this topic, and there are quite a few more in the last month or so:  Dec. 28, 9:29 am: ""Dont amputate...."  the text was: [with clipping the part not on this point] A surgeon in Tampa, FL a couple of years ago amputated the wrong leg of a diabetes patient. Golfers, and some teachers, often do exactly the same thing.  Two cases in point: —- then: So his cure had NOTHING to do with grip, stance, aim, or anything mid-swing; it had EVERYTHING to do with a posture thing that corrected not the SWING, but the orbit, in order to correct his IMPACT problem! I pointed out that his chest is a "platform" on which the upper arms need to rest to keep from falling lower during the swing than they had been set at his address.  I showed him how just a BIT [undetectable by observation] of reaching out AT setup permitted and caused the clubhead to drop both down AND closer to his feet during the swing.  I pointed out how a more erect chest would raise his platform to PREVENT the drop.  He understood this in "theory," obviously still skeptical, and then gave it a go. He "erectified" his chest posture a HAIR, to give a bit of support under his upper arms.  THE IMMEDIATE result was a pure impact on the next drive, the next, and the next, and so on.  We found the REAL problem, not the apparent one.  We solved it with a minor adjustment.  Not weeks of practice.  Not "go home and try this and keep practicing".  Now, immediate result.  Problem handled.  (Not to make him immediately a par golfer, necessarily, but a big step in the right direction, probably.) clip I use the word "subtle" in regard to many golf problems, and many of them are much more obscure than these two instances of problems of impact. The first case was more subtle than the second.  And the man’s comment to me about the "platform" was: "I’ve never heard THAT one before!" The next message was a followup at 12:50 same day.  Same point.  Platform needs to be set more erect. Did you pass over it? Like Dalecki says, he misses things that he is not ready to hear.  Me too. You too! George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com Pendulum Press – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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<Self-aggrandizing crap snipped I had a good laugh at your response, George.  I think it mightily humorous that you imply anyone would have sifted through all your posts looking for that one tidbit to turn their game around. Do you really think Rob, or I, or anyone else (save for one correspondent from England) actually reads everything you write? I gave up on your "teaching" a long time ago.  You avoided questions I asked, were inconsistent and contradictory, and so confusing as a communicator that I realized I’d likely not learn much from you. Because of that, I don’t read most of what you write.  I don’t have you killfiled, but I just pass most of it up.  Thus, you should be sure to never accuse *me* of missing something you’ve written.  Of course I will have missed it–I don’t read most of what you write.  The only reason I read this thread was because Rob initiated it.   Meanwhile, you’ve now posted SO MUCH material that I’m sure you can point to anything anyone says here and say "I’ve said that before" and dredge up some comment or line from some post somewhere.   The question of the day, of course, is why people don’t get it the first time you "explain" it.  I strongly suspect the problem is not with being ready to hear the message, either. So, for Rob, I enjoyed your post and how you adjusted your swing.  For George, "I told you so" rings hollow, as it always seems to. Mike Mike Dalecki–Charter Member, RSG Clique I do not patronize spammers!  Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call:  http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm

Response:

A lot of things have started working for me lately, staying behind the ball, controlling my right side, grip pressure and swingspeed; but I still have a tendancy to hit the ball fat for no reason that I can fathom. The other night I woke up in the middle of the night, and, as usualy, TGC was on; Golf Academy. Some guy I have never seen before was talking about something related to spine position (which I think is the cause of my fat shots) and told someone to "stick their chest out" at address, and stay "tall" throughout the swing. So I tried this, out in the freezing cold (at a driving range that never closes!), and it worked great for me. The only times I hit the ball fat was when I slumped a little with my chest. Sticking the chest out straightens the spine, with obvious benefits (a more stable axis for your shoulders to rest on and rotate around). I still keep my shoulders rounded and relaxed. I still keep my arms in front of me. If you find that you can really stick your chest out, you are probably too hunched over, and the curved spine adds another variable that is hard to control during your swing. Straighten the spine, and you have one less thing to worry about! GH really has nothing of value to add here. Rob

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A lot of things have started working for me lately, staying behind the ball, controlling my right side, grip pressure and swingspeed; but I still have a tendancy to hit the ball fat for no reason that I can fathom. The other night I woke up in the middle of the night, and, as usualy, TGC was on; Golf Academy. Some guy I have never seen before was talking about something related to spine position (which I think is the cause of my fat shots) and told someone to "stick their chest out" at address, and stay "tall" throughout the swing. So I tried this, out in the freezing cold (at a driving range that never closes!), and it worked great for me. The only times I hit the ball fat was when I slumped a little with my chest. Sticking the chest out straightens the spine, with obvious benefits (a more stable axis for your shoulders to rest on and rotate around). I still keep my shoulders rounded and relaxed. I still keep my arms in front of me. If you find that you can really stick your chest out, you are probably too hunched over, and the curved spine adds another variable that is hard to control during your swing. Straighten the spine, and you have one less thing to worry about! GH really has nothing of value to add here. Rob

You are not aware of my posts about the "platform" of the chest in support of the hands and arms to keep them from falling?  Or of the points about erect posture — same thing? Where have you been? George

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