Question:
Interesting…. under the new rules could someone use a leafblower, vacuum or broom to clear debris?
Under the current and the future (2004) rules a player could use a leafblower. The current rules allow a player to clear debris ( sand and soil, and loose impediments) from his line of putt by ‘picking them up or brushing them aside with his hand or club [*only!*] without pressing anything down’. The new rules (Jan 1, 2004) allow a player to use anything he likes to remove the debris.
– http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=hayesd
Response:
If you read a bit further in the rule, there are exceptions that allow you to press down on the line – one of these would be when repairing an old plug or ball mark – I know that most players I play with would push down on an old ball mark if it is not smooth and I believe this is allowed. Perhaps your friend is just doing this? At many of the courses in our area, the greens are far from perfect and it is not always clear what has caused the damage – we usually allow defects that would clearly deflect a putt to be repaired in our $2.00 Nassaus. After all, it is just for fun, so we don’t push the rules to the extreme. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Markus Dazkal" wrote The USGA Rule reads as follows: "The line of putt must not be touched except: the player may move sand and loose soil on the putting green and other loose impediments by picking them up or by brushing them aside with his hand or a club without pressing anything down; in addressing the ball, the player may place the club in front of the ball without pressing anything down."
Response:
If you read a bit further in the rule, there are exceptions that allow you to press down on the line – one of these would be when repairing an old plug or ball mark – I know that most players I play with would push down on an old ball mark if it is not smooth and I believe this is allowed. Perhaps your friend is just doing this? At many of the courses in our area, the greens are far from perfect and it is not always clear what has caused the damage – we usually allow defects that would clearly deflect a putt to be repaired in our $2.00 Nassaus. After all, it is just for fun, so we don’t push the rules to the extreme.
You are in violation, regardless of the extremity to which you violate the rules. Not allowed, period. Old ball marks can be "confused" with spike marks, or other irregularities on the green, so none of that is allowed. Play the course as you find it. Rick
Response:
I do recall playing a round of golf where the greens had indentations on them that could be nothing other than "paw prints." Paws connected to what, none of us were sure. But whatever they were, their nails (spikes) needed clipping. Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I wanna know is where anyone can play these days where you’d even find spike marks anymore. So they even sell those old spikes anymore? About a month ago I noticed the greens were spiked up on the course I was playing. I eventually caught up to the culprit, an old guy who played maybe once a year with golf shoes that were probably 20 years old. There are still a few of them out there. — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )
Response:
Interesting…. under the new rules could someone use a leafblower, vacuum or broom to clear debris? Under the current and the future (2004) rules a player could use a leafblower. — http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=hayesd
Cool! I’m asking for a gas powered leaf blower for Christmas! — JVDP Email: jpflumjr at cincii dot rr dot com
Response:
You are in violation, regardless of the extremity to which you violate the rules. Not allowed, period. Old ball marks can be "confused" with spike marks, or other irregularities on the green, so none of that is allowed. Play the course as you find it.
Interesting sideline – if your opponent walks in your line, you are allowed to correct his spike marks. You are allowed to have the course in the condition it was in when your ball arrived at the green. Any marks that came after are not "the course as you find it".
Response:
After he does this, you say… "Hey buddy. I was talking with some people about patting the greens with a putter the other day. It turns out you can’t do that, except to tidy up a repaired pitch mark. I’ll let you have that one, but I guess you’ll have to get out of that habit. That’s not a good solution. You have no right to let him ‘have that one’. Offering to overlook a breach constitutes agreement to waive a rule which is disqualification (1-3). If you’re going to play by the rules, you have to play by them all.
Then make sure to say "Of course I have to disqualify myself for allowing it – good thing this game doesn’t count". 1-3 is the one rule that I agree to waive. 8^)
Response:
You can fix old ball marks. You can’t fix spike marks. What I wanna know is where anyone can play these days where you’d even find spike marks anymore. So they even sell those old spikes anymore? Here’s how stupid I was when I first started playing golf. Didn’t own golf shoes, so I went to the course wearing football cleats. Not the big long metal spikes, but big, long rubbery "nubs." They stopped me in the clubhouse and said, "you can’t go out there in those shoes." I had no clue at the time. Funny thing about "soft-spike marks" is that they’re a lot more like old pitch marks than they are like spike marks in the sense we think of spike marks. Especially on soft, mushy greens. They leave more of an indentation, very similar in size and texture to a not-quite-fully-repaired pitch mark. Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you read a bit further in the rule, there are exceptions that allow you to press down on the line – one of these would be when repairing an old plug or ball mark – I know that most players I play with would push down on an old ball mark if it is not smooth and I believe this is allowed. Perhaps your friend is just doing this? At many of the courses in our area, the greens are far from perfect and it is not always clear what has caused the damage – we usually allow defects that would clearly deflect a putt to be repaired in our $2.00 Nassaus. After all, it is just for fun, so we don’t push the rules to the extreme. You are in violation, regardless of the extremity to which you violate the rules. Not allowed, period. Old ball marks can be "confused" with spike marks, or other irregularities on the green, so none of that is allowed. Play the course as you find it. Rick
Response:
Damn, now I have to get a bigger bag to carry both the leaf blower AND the chain saw!!
Vacuum cleaner. Makes you more of a sport. –Blair "But not golf."
Response:
What I wanna know is where anyone can play these days where you’d even find spike marks anymore. So they even sell those old spikes anymore?
About a month ago I noticed the greens were spiked up on the course I was playing. I eventually caught up to the culprit, an old guy who played maybe once a year with golf shoes that were probably 20 years old. There are still a few of them out there. — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )
Response:
Interesting…. under the new rules could someone use a leafblower, vacuum or broom to clear debris? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The current rules allow a player to clear debris ( sand and soil, and loose impediments) from his line of putt by ‘picking them up or brushing them aside with his hand or club [*only!*] without pressing anything down’. The new rules (Jan 1, 2004) allow a player to use anything he likes to remove the debris.
Response:
Interesting…. under the new rules could someone use a leafblower, vacuum or broom to clear debris?
The current rules says 16-1. General a. Touching Line of Putt. The line of putt must not be touched except: (i) the player may move sand and loose soil on the putting green and other loose impediments by picking them up or by brushing them aside with his hand or a club without pressing anything down. ….." The new rule simply says: "……. (i) the player may move loose impediments, provided he does not press anything down; …." ..and in listing principal changes to the Rules the new book says : "…..Rule 16-1a. Touching Line of Putt. Amended to provide that the player may remove loose impediments on the putting green by any means, provided he does not press anything down. ….." Pros are already organising their caddies to carry small sweeping brushes and dust trays!! cheers david
Response:
Solution: After he does this, you say… "Hey buddy. I was talking with some people about patting the greens with a putter the other day. It turns out you can’t do that, except to tidy up a repaired pitch mark. I’ll let you have that one, but I guess you’ll have to get out of that habit.
That’s not a good solution. You have no right to let him ‘have that one’. Offering to overlook a breach constitutes agreement to waive a rule which is disqualification (1-3). If you’re going to play by the rules, you have to play by them all.
Response:
Pros are already organising their caddies to carry small sweeping brushes and dust trays!! cheers david
Damn, now I have to get a bigger bag to carry both the leaf blower AND the chain saw!! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Response:
If I were in your position and this guy was a friend of mine, I’d pull him aside BEFORE our next round and say, "Lookit, if we’re going to play by the rules, I think you need to know something… you can’t tamp down the green along the line of your putts (then show him the rule in the rule book). I see you do this all the time, and I just want you to know it’s a violation." You can frame this any way you want to. I like framing it as a way to be helpful. "Hey, if you ever did this in a tournament, you could be disqualified for having signed incorrect scorecards, and I wouldn’t want to see that happen to you." Or, "If you’re wanting to waive that rule, then let’s look at some other rules that I’d like to have waived during our matches together." Or, as others have pointed out here, "You may wish to waive that rule, but if you’re asking me to let it go, then you should know that my looking the other way and not seeing to it that all rules are enforced places ME in jeopardy of disqualification by the rules.’ Lots of ways to say it, but the bottom line is, if you’re going to play by the rules, play by the rules. This isn’t a "technical violation." Smoothing out the line of a putt (which can be for one reason only, it’s to gain an advantage) is one of most serious rules breaches there is. If your "friend" doesn’t want to play by the rules, I’d either stop betting with him, or go find another golfing buddy to play golf with. Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The USGA Rule reads as follows: "The line of putt must not be touched except: the player may move sand and loose soil on the putting green and other loose impediments by picking them up or by brushing them aside with his hand or a club without pressing anything down; in addressing the ball, the player may place the club in front of the ball without pressing anything down." I play matches with a friend who as a matter of course uses his putter to press down on the line of his putt, especially in front of his ball and around the hole, before he putts. Two questions: 1. Is he in fact violating the rules? Sounds like you’re not allowed to press down on the green. 2. Is this the kind of highly technical violation that one should not raise as an issue in friendly match play (5 dollar nassau)? Obviously this is a matter of opinion rather than fact, I was just wondering what folks think. Thanks — Markus
Response:
2. Is this the kind of highly technical violation that one should not raise as an issue in friendly match play (5 dollar nassau)? Obviously this is a matter of opinion rather than fact, I was just wondering what folks think.
It’s probably a good idea to mention that "technically that isn’t legal" when you see a rules violation that you suspect your companion is unfamiliar with. Do it in a way to indicate that it doesn’t bother you, but that you like to be reminded of such so that you don’t forget come tournament time. If you suspect he might not take it as well as possible, a set up by "technically it’s illegal to ask you, or you to answer me, but how far do you think that lake is from here"?
Response:
I always wondered why they allow this. I can’t see where it serves any purpose for the player to put the putter down in front except to press down, which is illegal but damn hard to decide, so why not simplify the rule and say no touching the line of your putt period?
I think its legal because Bobby did it.
Response:
He is certainly violating the rules. The *only* repair allowed on the green is to ball pitchmarks and to old hole plugs…any other damage to the putting green ’shall not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole’. The current rules allow a player to clear debris ( sand and soil, and loose impediments) from his line of putt by ‘picking them up or brushing them aside with his hand or club [*only!*] without pressing anything down’. The new rules (Jan 1, 2004) allow a player to use anything he likes to remove the debris. What your friend is doing is not just a technical breach, it is a factual breach….incurring ‘loss of hole’ in matchplay, or two strokes penalty in stroke play. If I were playing for money I would make sure, before we start, what cheers david
Response:
I play matches with a friend who as a matter of course uses his putter to press down on the line of his putt, especially in front of his ball and around the hole, before he putts.
<clip Solution: After he does this, you say… "Hey buddy. I was talking with some people about patting the greens with a putter the other day. It turns out you can’t do that, except to tidy up a repaired pitch mark. I’ll let you have that one, but I guess you’ll have to get out of that habit.
Screw that. Call him on it the next time he does it. He’s already had his first chance, over and over. ___, o | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk
Response:
the player may move sand and loose soil on the putting green and other loose impediments by picking them up or by brushing them aside with his hand or a club without pressing anything down; in addressing the ball, the player may place the club in front of the ball without pressing anything down."
I always wondered why they allow this. I can’t see where it serves any purpose for the player to put the putter down in front except to press down, which is illegal but damn hard to decide, so why not simplify the rule and say no touching the line of your putt period? I play matches with a friend who as a matter of course uses his putter to press down on the line of his putt, especially in front of his ball and around the hole, before he putts. Two questions: 1. Is he in fact violating the rules? Sounds like you’re not allowed to press down on the green.
Sounds clear cut — it’s a rules violation. 2. Is this the kind of highly technical violation that one should not raise as an issue in friendly match play (5 dollar nassau)? Obviously this is a matter of opinion rather than fact, I was just wondering what folks think.
What you do about it depends on how much you want to make of it. Before playing anyone for money I’d make clear whether you are going to play by the rules or not, and if not what’s allowed. If there’s no agreement to allow this, I’d give him a warning first — i.e. tell him that’s not allowed by the rules, but that since he probably didn’t know that you won’t ask him to take a penalty (if he’s particularly honest and knowledgeable he probably will take one anyway). If he makes a stink about it, find another golf partner. — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )
Response:
The USGA Rule reads as follows: "The line of putt must not be touched except: the player may move sand and loose soil on the putting green and other loose impediments by picking them up or by brushing them aside with his hand or a club without pressing anything down; in addressing the ball, the player may place the club in front of the ball without pressing anything down." I play matches with a friend who as a matter of course uses his putter to press down on the line of his putt, especially in front of his ball and around the hole, before he putts. Two questions: 1. Is he in fact violating the rules? Sounds like you’re not allowed to press down on the green. 2. Is this the kind of highly technical violation that one should not raise as an issue in friendly match play (5 dollar nassau)? Obviously this is a matter of opinion rather than fact, I was just wondering what folks think. Thanks — Markus
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The USGA Rule reads as follows: "The line of putt must not be touched except: the player may move sand and loose soil on the putting green and other loose impediments by picking them up or by brushing them aside with his hand or a club without pressing anything down; in addressing the ball, the player may place the club in front of the ball without pressing anything down." I play matches with a friend who as a matter of course uses his putter to press down on the line of his putt, especially in front of his ball and around the hole, before he putts. Two questions: 1. Is he in fact violating the rules? Sounds like you’re not allowed to press down on the green. 2. Is this the kind of highly technical violation that one should not raise as an issue in friendly match play (5 dollar nassau)? Obviously this is a matter of opinion rather than fact, I was just wondering what folks think. Thanks — Markus
I’m not a rules guru but I don’t consider this as a "kind of highly technical violation". I consider this a serious breach. Your friendly match partner is, besides violating the rules and spirit of the game to play the course as you find it, is taking an important variable out of play and placing you at a significant disadvantage. It’s your money but I wouldn’t bet a penny with this guy. He probably rolls the ball in the fairway too. You might suggest to him that you will play with your regular handicap adjustments plus he can give you 3 or 4 strokes a side. joe
Response:
I play matches with a friend who as a matter of course uses his putter to press down on the line of his putt, especially in front of his ball and around the hole, before he putts. Two questions: 1. Is he in fact violating the rules? Sounds like you’re not allowed to press down on the green. 2. Is this the kind of highly technical violation that one should not raise as an issue in friendly match play (5 dollar nassau)?
Two issues: 1) It’s a rules breach, pure and simple. You can tamp down repaired ball marks, but nothing else. You can clear away debris, but you can’t make a nice smooth little path into the hole with your putter. 2) A $5 nassau isn’t friendly. It’s war. When a cheater can win $15, plus multiple presses, it’s a problem, evidenced by your posting. A "friendly" outing involves no scorekeeping, no wagering, no challenges, just golf. Solution: After he does this, you say… "Hey buddy. I was talking with some people about patting the greens with a putter the other day. It turns out you can’t do that, except to tidy up a repaired pitch mark. I’ll let you have that one, but I guess you’ll have to get out of that habit. — Doug Main "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."