Question:
You know, Steve, I wonder if what set some people off on this was my use of the word "uniform." For some, that smacks of communism or worse, apparently. Geez, it’s just a word.
There’s also a side of us (or some of us) who get our fill of rules and regulations elsewhere in our lives, and the golf course is a place where (except for the rules of the game), we can kind of leave all that stuff behind. I’m amused and saddened at the same time, by the reaction to all this. I never said 90 percent of what people impute to the arguments I made.
That’s true. I think what happened was that some of us took what you said and went off in another direction with it than where you were going. Sort of the nature of Usenet, though. Randy
Response:
You know, Steve, I wonder if what set some people off on this was my use of the word "uniform." For some, that smacks of communism or worse, apparently. Geez, it’s just a word.
Yeah, but so is communism 
Response:
2) Moderate/Conservative: Private to Semi-Private $60+ type course. Collared shirts. Shorts ok, Bermuda length only, no cutoffs. (maybe a no sock-less rule). And golf shoes (soft spikes) required.
Does any place require golf shoes? Why?
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1) Very conservative end: Exclusive club. Men are not allowed to wear shorts…. Where does this sort of thing exist? I wasn’t aware of it. I’m not surprised it exists *somewhere*, but I thought it would be rare.
Same here, I did say "if such a thing exists" or something like that which got snippage. Maybe I should have said "suppose there is…" to make an example of an extreme. Then state if it’s private, you’re there because you want to be there, and is moot to this dress code debate. Just hearsay, but my friend (who I trust) and his brother-in-law are into tennis and they told me of a club where you have to wear white head to toe. No stripes on sneakers, nothing. I find this hard to believe because where can you buy something that doesn’t have some sort of markings on it, at least in athletic wear? The guy’s b-i-l is a stock broker and is in this club mainly to mingle with clients, or so he says.
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""R&B"" wrote ….AND how often do you really see a serious breach? Somewhere around here I have some pictures of me playing in cut-offs and no shirt, circa 1984. That was about 50 pounds ago (and several fewer gray hairs). Maybe I should dig it out as a reminder of what a mean, LEAN, golfing machine I could be. Randy
A half-naked Randy Brown… That would be a serious breach… and for other reasons than dress code… Put it on yougogolf.
Response:
You know, Steve, I wonder if what set some people off on this was my use of the word "uniform." For some, that smacks of communism or worse, apparently. Geez, it’s just a word. Yeah, but so is communism
only with a lower case ‘c’ :-)
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<snip I guess I’m in the Mike D. "uniform" camp even if I might have a different view on why. (that it’s ok if the standards are a bit "lower" if the course allows it- to introduce newcomers to the game). Steve You know, Steve, I wonder if what set some people off on this was my use of the word "uniform." For some, that smacks of communism or worse, apparently. Geez, it’s just a word.
IIRC, you put ""uniform"" in quotes too, to mean using the term loosely. At least, that’s the way I read it, and (I believe) got your drift. I’m amused and saddened at the same time, by the reaction to all this. I never said 90 percent of what people impute to the arguments I made.
I got a bit long winded, but I ventured to guess that though a hot debate, most, if not all, of us RSGers who are *frequent* golfers dress similar. That’s not to say that we’re being robots or have no individuality. All I really said was that dress codes provide a visible indication that there are at least some standards for behavior, and that this helps to create an environment in which social control mechanisms can more easily operate.
I’m by no means an expert in sociology, but in my high school days and early college is when punk rock became popular. What always got me is the oxymora of it, a leather jacket with non-conformist spray painted on it with safety pins on it. Sh*t, if that ain’t a uniform I don’t know what is! Is there a name for this, a reverse-society society with stricter codes than plain society? Guess it’s just punk, or plain stupidity. PS: Due to the deleterious effects that this conformity has had on my mind, I don’t think I can align shafts in clubheads any more. When I do that, the labels point every which way, and that’s clearly no good for someone with such a conformist bent as I have. Nothing but label up for me from now on! :)
Glad I have the "pre-conformist" clanger!
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But those people also probably didn’t go to a Catholic grade school. :-) I would hardly call those institutions communist. You know, Steve, I wonder if what set some people off on this was my use of the word "uniform." For some, that smacks of communism or worse, apparently. Geez, it’s just a word. Yeah, but so is communism
– John Pflum, Jr. PKG Consultants, Inc. 5533 Fair Lane Cincinnati, Ohio 45227 513/272-5533 Web: http://www.pkgconsult.com
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Do people have the same disagreements with the general dress codes for all racket sports? Even when I’ve played tennis or squash at the local council sports centres there are notices reminding players to wear appropriate attire and no-one ever complains about this. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone saying that they should be allowed to wear their cut-off denims and football shirts on the squash courts. My own 2p is that some people have it in their minds that golf is an old-fashioned, stuck-up sport and use the dress code argument to further their claims. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just hearsay, but my friend (who I trust) and his brother-in-law are into tennis and they told me of a club where you have to wear white head to toe. No stripes on sneakers, nothing. I find this hard to believe because where can you buy something that doesn’t have some sort of markings on it, at least in athletic wear? The guy’s b-i-l is a stock broker and is in this club mainly to mingle with clients, or so he says.
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Just hearsay, but my friend (who I trust) and his brother-in-law are into tennis and they told me of a club where you have to wear white head to toe. No stripes on sneakers, nothing. I find this hard to believe because where can you buy something that doesn’t have some sort of markings on it, at least in athletic wear? The guy’s b-i-l is a stock broker and is in this club mainly to mingle with clients, or so he says. Do people have the same disagreements with the general dress codes for all racket sports?
I doubt it, I was referring to a very strict example… I don’t disagree with it, just meant "hard to believe," or surprised on the all white clothing that I heard of- in that it may be difficult to find the right attire. Unless that’s just a known thing in racquet sports and companies accomodate. My own 2p is that some people have it in their minds that golf is an old-fashioned, stuck-up sport and use the dress code argument to further their claims.
Yes, I’ve encountered that. I have an acquaintance who does that and he’s also the first to nitpick slowness in front of us.
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Steve, Excellently put and very well thought out, well done tom. — Tom Donnellan RSG Roll Call :http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/donnellant.htm
….AND how often do you really see a serious breach? This is a heated debate, but I’m willing to bet that most of us RSGers dress similarly during our rounds, but just like to debate… why usenet, I guess So what are the extremes? And what’s the middle? I’ll take a crack: 1) Very conservative end: Exclusive club. Men are not allowed to wear shorts, but ladies can, if they are allowed to play on the course at all. Polo shirts. Maybe some color/pattern restrictions, (similar to exclusive tennis clubs only
allowing only white). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very high membership fees. Jacket and tie in dining room etc.. 2) Moderate/Conservative: Private to Semi-Private $60+ type course. Collared shirts. Shorts ok, Bermuda length only, no cutoffs. (maybe a no sock-less rule). And golf shoes (soft spikes) required. 3) Typical muni: Shirt required, but no sleeveless shirts. No cutoffs. (T-shirt/drawstring pants ok). $20-$40… maybe less on weekday with card from that municipality. 4) No dress code. Might be a beat up course, and only worth playing if you live very close for convenient practice. Good place to bring newbies to the game. Ok, most of us probably don’t have access to 1) if such a place exists, and exclusive clubs have rules for that reason- to be exclusive. A bit posh for me even if I had the cash- so don’t like/look elsewhere! Average Joe (like myself) does not know it exists anyway. #4) probably won’t be frequented by serious golfers very often. So I
wouldn’t worry about – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – #’s 1) or 4)… My guess is that many RSGers, play at 2 or 3. The ex-hippy, tie-dye guy, if he cares about his game and wants to putt on some nicer greens, is going to put on a polo without too much fuss and protesting in front of the club house at 2). If you see an urban kid wearing "FUBU" stuff at 3) s/he’s probably just young, and if s/he really takes to the game, will come around attire-wise, it’s only temporary, kids grow up. And Fubu does fit the rules at 3) so technically there is no violation, but some may not care for the look. I can swing a golf club in in a tee shirt and basketball shorts. But the shorts have no pockets, and tee shirts are sometimes too tight around the neck. And denim even if not tight fitting, is too heavy and sticky when sweating. There is just something very functional about Dockers/Bermudas and a polo shirt for golf (not necess. name brands). It ain’t *that* dressy, and probably is the way it evolved for that reason. However, if there are any discriminations to be inferred by "dress codes" it’s probably to encourage a higher level of experience. Definitely *not* ethnic or
economic background, not scoring ability, but people who know not to drive carts on the fringe, know to wave people up on a par 3 if they do, for some reason, have to go slower etc. It’s no guarantee, but the people that play the game seriously usually "come around" to 2),
the moderate/conservative attire because it’s functional, and takes away any question. I guess I’m in the Mike D. "uniform" camp even if I might have a different view on why. (that it’s ok if the standards are a bit "lower" if the course allows it-
to introduce newcomers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to the game). Steve
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Is there a name for this, a reverse-society society with stricter codes than plain society? Guess it’s just punk, or plain stupidity.
Hare Krishnas. Monasteries. 8^)
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1) Very conservative end: Exclusive club. Men are not allowed to wear
shorts…. Where does this sort of thing exist? I wasn’t aware of it. I’m not surprised it exists *somewhere*, but I thought it would be rare. I used to work at Oak Hill CC in Rochester – right up there with Winged Foot, Oakland Hills, Oakmont, etc in terms of prestige and tradition, I think. Yet men were allowed to wear shorts. And this was in the cool North. In the South, I’d think it was unheard of to forbid shorts. Anyway, speaking of that, I was "reported" twice on this course. Once on the range where I was wearing jogging shorts to hit balls, and once on the course when I was wearing tennis shorts (with pockets, but too short for Bermudas).
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<snip Count me on Mike camp on this, but I still won’t try to build my own clubs. I’m afraid to become a club maker addict and then I will be going to the golf club smelling like solvent, glue and rubber stains all over my outfit ….yuck!
Those aren’t stains, Quique, those are badges of honor! C’mon, you can give clubmaking a try. Won’t hurt a bit. You might even like it, and as everyone knows, you can stop at any time. Really. I’m sure I could. Mike Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2002 Info http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2002 I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean! Web Site: http://www.dalecki.net/clubdoctor/ RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim
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<snip I guess I’m in the Mike D. "uniform" camp even if I might have a different view on why. (that it’s ok if the standards are a bit "lower" if the course allows it- to introduce newcomers to the game). Steve
You know, Steve, I wonder if what set some people off on this was my use of the word "uniform." For some, that smacks of communism or worse, apparently. Geez, it’s just a word. I’m amused and saddened at the same time, by the reaction to all this. I never said 90 percent of what people impute to the arguments I made. All I really said was that dress codes provide a visible indication that there are at least some standards for behavior, and that this helps to create an environment in which social control mechanisms can more easily operate. Geez, you’d think I’d accused Arnold Palmer of being a cheatin’, lyin’, bushwackin’ S.O.B. Ah, well, I think I’ll pop on over to the thrift shop tomorrow for a couple minutes and see if they have any cheap shirts I can use on the golf course to demonstrate my unyielding adherance to all demands for conformity. Mike PS: Due to the deleterious effects that this conformity has had on my mind, I don’t think I can align shafts in clubheads any more. When I do that, the labels point every which way, and that’s clearly no good for someone with such a conformist bent as I have. Nothing but label up for me from now on! :) Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2002 Info http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2002 I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean! Web Site: http://www.dalecki.net/clubdoctor/ RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim
Response:
Somewhere around here I have some pictures of me playing in cut-offs and no shirt, circa 1984. That was about 50 pounds ago (and several fewer gray hairs). Maybe I should dig it out as a reminder of what a mean, LEAN, golfing machine I could be. Randy
….AND how often do you really see a serious breach? This is a heated debate, but I’m willing to bet that most of us RSGers dress similarly during our rounds, but just like to debate… why usenet, I guess So what are the extremes? And what’s the middle? I’ll take a crack: 1) Very conservative end: Exclusive club. Men are not allowed to wear shorts, but ladies can, if they are allowed to play on the course at all. Polo shirts. Maybe some color/pattern restrictions, (similar to exclusive tennis clubs only
allowing only white). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very high membership fees. Jacket and tie in dining room etc.. 2) Moderate/Conservative: Private to Semi-Private $60+ type course. Collared shirts. Shorts ok, Bermuda length only, no cutoffs. (maybe a no sock-less rule). And golf shoes (soft spikes) required. 3) Typical muni: Shirt required, but no sleeveless shirts. No cutoffs. (T-shirt/drawstring pants ok). $20-$40… maybe less on weekday with card from that municipality. 4) No dress code. Might be a beat up course, and only worth playing if you live very close for convenient practice. Good place to bring newbies to the game. Ok, most of us probably don’t have access to 1) if such a place exists, and exclusive clubs have rules for that reason- to be exclusive. A bit posh for me even if I had the cash- so don’t like/look elsewhere! Average Joe (like myself) does not know it exists anyway. #4) probably won’t be frequented by serious golfers very often. So I
wouldn’t worry about – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – #’s 1) or 4)… My guess is that many RSGers, play at 2 or 3. The ex-hippy, tie-dye guy, if he cares about his game and wants to putt on some nicer greens, is going to put on a polo without too much fuss and protesting in front of the club house at 2). If you see an urban kid wearing "FUBU" stuff at 3) s/he’s probably just young, and if s/he really takes to the game, will come around attire-wise, it’s only temporary, kids grow up. And Fubu does fit the rules at 3) so technically there is no violation, but some may not care for the look. I can swing a golf club in in a tee shirt and basketball shorts. But the shorts have no pockets, and tee shirts are sometimes too tight around the neck. And denim even if not tight fitting, is too heavy and sticky when sweating. There is just something very functional about Dockers/Bermudas and a polo shirt for golf (not necess. name brands). It ain’t *that* dressy, and probably is the way it evolved for that reason. However, if there are any discriminations to be inferred by "dress codes" it’s probably to encourage a higher level of experience. Definitely *not* ethnic or
economic background, not scoring ability, but people who know not to drive carts on the fringe, know to wave people up on a par 3 if they do, for some reason, have to go slower etc. It’s no guarantee, but the people that play the game seriously usually "come around" to 2),
the moderate/conservative attire because it’s functional, and takes away any question. I guess I’m in the Mike D. "uniform" camp even if I might have a different view on why. (that it’s ok if the standards are a bit "lower" if the course allows it-
to introduce newcomers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to the game). Steve
Response:
| | ….AND how often do you really see a serious breach? | | This is a heated debate, but I’m willing to bet that most of us RSGers | dress similarly during our rounds, but just like to debate… why usenet, | I guess | | So what are the extremes? And what’s the middle? I’ll take a crack: | | 1) Very conservative end: Exclusive club. Men are not allowed to wear shorts, but | ladies can, if they are allowed to play on the course at all. Polo shirts. Maybe | some color/pattern restrictions, (similar to exclusive tennis clubs only allowing only white). | Very high membership fees. Jacket and tie in dining room etc.. | | 2) Moderate/Conservative: Private to Semi-Private $60+ type course. Collared shirts. | Shorts ok, Bermuda length only, no cutoffs. (maybe a no sock-less rule). And | golf shoes (soft spikes) required. | | 3) Typical muni: Shirt required, but no sleeveless shirts. No cutoffs. (T-shirt/drawstring | pants ok). $20-$40… maybe less on weekday with card from that municipality. | | 4) No dress code. Might be a beat up course, and only worth playing if you live | very close for convenient practice. Good place to bring newbies to the game. | | Ok, most of us probably don’t have access to 1) if such a place exists, and exclusive clubs | have rules for that reason- to be exclusive. A bit posh for me even if I had the cash- so | don’t like/look elsewhere! Average Joe (like myself) does not know it exists anyway. | #4) probably won’t be frequented by serious golfers very often. So I wouldn’t worry about | #’s 1) or 4)… | | My guess is that many RSGers, play at 2 or 3. The ex-hippy, tie-dye guy, if he cares | about his game and wants to putt on some nicer greens, is going to put on a polo without | too much fuss and protesting in front of the club house at 2). If you see an urban kid | wearing "FUBU" stuff at 3) s/he’s probably just young, and if s/he really takes to the | game, will come around attire-wise, it’s only temporary, kids grow up. And Fubu does | fit the rules at 3) so technically there is no violation, but some may not care for the look. | | I can swing a golf club in in a tee shirt and basketball shorts. But the shorts have | no pockets, and tee shirts are sometimes too tight around the neck. And denim even if | not tight fitting, is too heavy and sticky when sweating. There is just something | very functional about Dockers/Bermudas and a polo shirt for golf (not necess. name | brands). It ain’t *that* dressy, and probably is the way it evolved for that reason. | | However, if there are any discriminations to be inferred by "dress codes" it’s probably | to encourage a higher level of experience. Definitely *not* ethnic or economic background, | not scoring ability, but people who know not to drive carts on the fringe, know to wave | people up on a par 3 if they do, for some reason, have to go slower etc. It’s no guarantee, | but the people that play the game seriously usually "come around" to 2), the moderate/conservative | attire because it’s functional, and takes away any question. | | I guess I’m in the Mike D. "uniform" camp even if I might have a different view on why. | (that it’s ok if the standards are a bit "lower" if the course allows it- to introduce newcomers | to the game). | | Steve | My wife tells me that I look extremely handsome on my polo shirt and shorts, and she never lies, plus the ladies at the golf club give appreciative looks and kind of flirt with me. Count me on Mike camp on this, but I still won’t try to build my own clubs. I’m afraid to become a club maker addict and then I will be going to the golf club smelling like solvent, glue and rubber stains all over my outfit ….yuck! — Enrique http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=borregoenrique _ -(")- `%%% //
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….AND how often do you really see a serious breach? This is a heated debate, but I’m willing to bet that most of us RSGers dress similarly during our rounds, but just like to debate… why usenet, I guess So what are the extremes? And what’s the middle? I’ll take a crack:
…snip… Excellent post Steve, eloquently put. Count me in the Mike D camp as well. — David RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=sneddond email: dsneddon AT attcanada DOT ca
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….AND how often do you really see a serious breach? This is a heated debate, but I’m willing to bet that most of us RSGers dress similarly during our rounds, but just like to debate… why usenet, I guess So what are the extremes? And what’s the middle? I’ll take a crack: 1) Very conservative end: Exclusive club. Men are not allowed to wear shorts, but ladies can, if they are allowed to play on the course at all. Polo shirts. Maybe some color/pattern restrictions, (similar to exclusive tennis clubs only
allowing only white). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very high membership fees. Jacket and tie in dining room etc.. 2) Moderate/Conservative: Private to Semi-Private $60+ type course. Collared shirts. Shorts ok, Bermuda length only, no cutoffs. (maybe a no sock-less rule). And golf shoes (soft spikes) required. 3) Typical muni: Shirt required, but no sleeveless shirts. No cutoffs. (T-shirt/drawstring pants ok). $20-$40… maybe less on weekday with card from that municipality. 4) No dress code. Might be a beat up course, and only worth playing if you live very close for convenient practice. Good place to bring newbies to the game. Ok, most of us probably don’t have access to 1) if such a place exists, and exclusive clubs have rules for that reason- to be exclusive. A bit posh for me even if I had the cash- so don’t like/look elsewhere! Average Joe (like myself) does not know it exists anyway. #4) probably won’t be frequented by serious golfers very often. So I
wouldn’t worry about – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – #’s 1) or 4)… My guess is that many RSGers, play at 2 or 3. The ex-hippy, tie-dye guy, if he cares about his game and wants to putt on some nicer greens, is going to put on a polo without too much fuss and protesting in front of the club house at 2). If you see an urban kid wearing "FUBU" stuff at 3) s/he’s probably just young, and if s/he really takes to the game, will come around attire-wise, it’s only temporary, kids grow up. And Fubu does fit the rules at 3) so technically there is no violation, but some may not care for the look. I can swing a golf club in in a tee shirt and basketball shorts. But the shorts have no pockets, and tee shirts are sometimes too tight around the neck. And denim even if not tight fitting, is too heavy and sticky when sweating. There is just something very functional about Dockers/Bermudas and a polo shirt for golf (not necess. name brands). It ain’t *that* dressy, and probably is the way it evolved for that reason. However, if there are any discriminations to be inferred by "dress codes" it’s probably to encourage a higher level of experience. Definitely *not* ethnic or
economic background, not scoring ability, but people who know not to drive carts on the fringe, know to wave people up on a par 3 if they do, for some reason, have to go slower etc. It’s no guarantee, but the people that play the game seriously usually "come around" to 2),
the moderate/conservative attire because it’s functional, and takes away any question. I guess I’m in the Mike D. "uniform" camp even if I might have a different view on why. (that it’s ok if the standards are a bit "lower" if the course allows it-
to introduce newcomers to the game). Steve
There is a number 5. It’s usually very close to a theme park. They allow workers from the park to come directly from work to the tee. I have been forced to play with mice, bears, and 3 dwarfs. They were all nice people, but could not get out of character while in costume. Never golf with 3 dwarfs. Jon
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….AND how often do you really see a serious breach? This is a heated debate, but I’m willing to bet that most of us RSGers dress similarly during our rounds, but just like to debate… why usenet, I guess So what are the extremes? And what’s the middle? I’ll take a crack:
big snip I guess I’m in the Mike D. "uniform" camp even if I might have a different view on why. (that it’s ok if the standards are a bit "lower" if the course allows it- to introduce newcomers to the game). Steve
Well said Steve. I agree with your assessment. But I am firmly in the Mike D camp with regard to the underlying value of "uniforms". Joe
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….AND how often do you really see a serious breach? This is a heated debate, but I’m willing to bet that most of us RSGers dress similarly during our rounds, but just like to debate… why usenet, I guess So what are the extremes? And what’s the middle? I’ll take a crack: 1) Very conservative end: Exclusive club. Men are not allowed to wear shorts, but ladies can, if they are allowed to play on the course at all. Polo shirts. Maybe some color/pattern restrictions, (similar to exclusive tennis clubs only allowing only white). Very high membership fees. Jacket and tie in dining room etc.. 2) Moderate/Conservative: Private to Semi-Private $60+ type course. Collared shirts. Shorts ok, Bermuda length only, no cutoffs. (maybe a no sock-less rule). And golf shoes (soft spikes) required. 3) Typical muni: Shirt required, but no sleeveless shirts. No cutoffs. (T-shirt/drawstring pants ok). $20-$40… maybe less on weekday with card from that municipality. 4) No dress code. Might be a beat up course, and only worth playing if you live very close for convenient practice. Good place to bring newbies to the game. Ok, most of us probably don’t have access to 1) if such a place exists, and exclusive clubs have rules for that reason- to be exclusive. A bit posh for me even if I had the cash- so don’t like/look elsewhere! Average Joe (like myself) does not know it exists anyway. #4) probably won’t be frequented by serious golfers very often. So I wouldn’t worry about #’s 1) or 4)… My guess is that many RSGers, play at 2 or 3. The ex-hippy, tie-dye guy, if he cares about his game and wants to putt on some nicer greens, is going to put on a polo without too much fuss and protesting in front of the club house at 2). If you see an urban kid wearing "FUBU" stuff at 3) s/he’s probably just young, and if s/he really takes to the game, will come around attire-wise, it’s only temporary, kids grow up. And Fubu does fit the rules at 3) so technically there is no violation, but some may not care for the look. I can swing a golf club in in a tee shirt and basketball shorts. But the shorts have no pockets, and tee shirts are sometimes too tight around the neck. And denim even if not tight fitting, is too heavy and sticky when sweating. There is just something very functional about Dockers/Bermudas and a polo shirt for golf (not necess. name brands). It ain’t *that* dressy, and probably is the way it evolved for that reason. However, if there are any discriminations to be inferred by "dress codes" it’s probably to encourage a higher level of experience. Definitely *not* ethnic or economic background, not scoring ability, but people who know not to drive carts on the fringe, know to wave people up on a par 3 if they do, for some reason, have to go slower etc. It’s no guarantee, but the people that play the game seriously usually "come around" to 2), the moderate/conservative attire because it’s functional, and takes away any question. I guess I’m in the Mike D. "uniform" camp even if I might have a different view on why. (that it’s ok if the standards are a bit "lower" if the course allows it- to introduce newcomers to the game). Steve