Question:
The USGA first allowed square grooves on the market because it is almost impossible to cast a club with the sharp bottomed V groove. Instead the clubs were turning out to have rounded bottom U grooves. (Golf or Golf Digest late ‘83 or early ‘84). This was beacuse there would be some slippage in the casting process. The only company with a cast club and true V grooves IMHO is Accuform because they cut the grooves after the head is cast; something to do with their aircraft parts manufacturing background. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I admit I don’t know why square grooves are more appropriate to cast heads. But the "harder steel" argument doesn’t stand up: 1. The edge isn’t sharp, so it doesn’t matter. 2. The hardness difference is less than 10%. So even if a sharp edge mattered, it would only result in a very small difference in life. As long as you’re guessing, let me guess too. Forging involves a solid die, that must be pressed in and removed. Casting involves a mold that’s destructible, if I understand the "investment casting" process correctly. Square grooves have zero relief for removing the mold or die. That means it can’t be done with a solid die, but it can if the mold is destroyed during removal. That means that square gooves can be cast, but would have to be machined after forging (expensive) for a forged club. Am I close? Miko? Dick? Somone who knows? Cheers! Dave
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Also, why do some pros claim that they made/make a difference in their games.
That is exactly my point. There are a couple hundred players in the world that are separated by a stroke or two, and rely on these strokes to make a living. If one of these players saves said stroke by holding a shot on the green that would otherwise have skidded off, it makes a world of difference. For the ninty percent of the golfing public that’s elated just to hit a green, they don’t do a thing. As far as Karsten Mfg. vs. The USGA, that was pretty important stuff. Karsten was trying to bend the rules by using a measuring system that was not within the guidlines set forth by the USGA. If the USGA let that go, every manufacturer with a goofy idea would have a precedent to work with, and you would see all kinds of funky toys designed to take the skill out of the game.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 8:46pm -0400 All cast clubs now have square grooves. Hmmm…. Flipping through the Golfsmith catalog rather quickly I noticed at least a half dozen cast clubs with "V" grooves. … and except for Golfsmith, few component suppliers have square grooves. The vast majority of CAST component clubheads have V-grooves. Okay, how about *name brand* cast clubs? The square grooves are more difficult to produce and some less expensive clubheads may use v grooves to save costs. Facts, Rick? I know the Pings have square grooves. Which other OEM clubs do? I don’t think any, but if you can cite specs that say they do, I’m willing to be educated.
This is getting long but, as you say *most* component clubmakers use a V groove in casting. Where I maintain that *most* name brand manufacturers use square grooves. It is apparent that a sharp 90 degree steel edge will provide more bite than a 60 or so degree one, Rick, your understanding of this issue leaves a lot to be desired. Consider browsing over to dunkin.princeton.edu, and read my article on the history of this controversy. In brief, modern square grooves have rounded edges. Your "sharp 90 degree edge" argument has zero relevance.
This is more obvious than the "volume of grass bitten through" issue which we seem to agree on. I would suggest that *anyone* go to their local golf store and run their fingers across various high priced cast clubs, and hopefully some used forged and cast clubs’ faces. 2. The hardness difference is less than 10%. So even if a sharp edge mattered, it would only result in a very small difference in life.
If you do this and are also able to compare used cast and forged clubs you will find that on average, their is a big difference in the hardness and sharpness holding characteristics of forged and cast. Look at the depth of the scratches on each type of club, the pattern of wear, etc. As long as you’re guessing, let me guess too. Forging involves a solid die, that must be pressed in and removed.
And lots of handwork and grinding. Casting involves a mold that’s destructible, if I understand the "investment casting" process correctly. Square grooves have zero relief for removing the mold or die. That means it can’t be done with a solid die, but it can if the mold is destroyed during removal.
during casting you mean. It is very instructive to look at the grooves of the clubs you are buying under magnification. It might make no difference in the performance of the clubs but at least you can make a judgement about how much care was taken in their casting and quality control. That means that square gooves can be cast, but would have to be machined after forging (expensive) for a forged club.
Yes, but the "best" forged clubs *are* machined, yet cost less than the "best" cast clubs. Am I close? Miko? Dick? Somone who knows?
Yes, hopefully some will share some proven secrets. These are things I have read and observed, I could be mistaken, so I hope there is some "proof" from some source.. Cheers! Dave
Thanks, Rick — —
Response:
Also, why do some pros claim that they made/make a difference in their games. That is exactly my point. There are a couple hundred players in the world that are separated by a stroke or two, and rely on these strokes to make a living. If one of these players saves said stroke by holding a shot on the green that would otherwise have skidded off, it makes a world of difference. For the ninty percent of the golfing public that’s elated just to hit a green, they don’t do a thing.
I just don’t buy that. There are ample studies that show what square grooves do and don’t do, assuming you have a decent (that’s competent, not better-than-scratch, as Yogmanov implies) swing. - From dry fairway, square grooves do next to nothing. Actually, ANY groove is unnecessary in this case. You lose very little spin with even a polished face. - From the rough — especially wet rough — square grooves add a significant amount of spin. I haven’t seen a study that addresses the differences in spin, if any, for half-swing and short pitch shots; that might be interesting. As far as Karsten Mfg. vs. The USGA, that was pretty important stuff. Karsten was trying to bend the rules by using a measuring system that was not within the guidlines set forth by the USGA. If the USGA let that go, every manufacturer with a goofy idea would have a precedent to work with, and you would see all kinds of funky toys designed to take the skill out of the game.
Bad distortion of what actually happened. My take on it: - Karsten acted in good faith, but overlooked a detail. - The USGA, as Yogmanov said, did the only thing it could. - The PGA was really the heavy with an agenda, and fortunately it lost. - The rules issue between USGA and Karsten had NOTHING AT ALL to do with square grooves. It had to do with the fact that the spacing between the grooves was considered smaller when you round the edge of the grooves, because the rounding takes up part of the clubface. That put Karsten’s grooves too close together by .005", something he hadn’t considered when he rounded the edges. Before he started rounding them (I think in 1985) the SQUARE GROOVES on the Pings were perfectly legal. Want to know more? See my article (square.groov) at dunkin.princeton.edu Cheers! Dave
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m GMT Forging involves a solid die, that must be pressed in and removed. Casting involves a mold that’s destructible, if I understand the "investment casting" process correctly. Square grooves have zero relief for removing the mold or die. That means it can’t be done with a solid die, but it can if the mold is destroyed during removal. That means that square gooves can be cast, but would have to be machined after forging (expensive) for a forged club.
On this last one I remember reading somewhere (Senior Golfer 4 – 6 months back) that the Wilsom RM forged irons had the grooves *cold stamped* after the forging process was complete. Don’t know if the grooves were "V", "U", or square. I will try and find the article to confirm this. It was a pretty interesting article, a s I remember, that showed a Wilson RM at various stages from ingot to finished product. Dave
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
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7:28pm -0400 06/05/96 8:46pm -0400 All cast clubs now have square grooves. Hmmm…. Flipping through the Golfsmith catalog rather quickly I noticed at least a half dozen cast clubs with "V" grooves. Okay, how about *name brand* cast clubs?
Oh, now I see why there was a misunderstanding. I thought you said "all cast clubs". But to answer your new question, I just got off the phone with Founders Club customer service (I was talking to them anyway about their Tour Titanium driver) and they said that all of their cast clubs have "V" grooves. Do you consider Founders Club a *name brand*? Rick
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
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As with so many gimmicks in the world of golf, the square groove issue is just hype to sell clubs.
Considering the lawyers involved between Karsten and the USGA, I would call it some damn expensive hype. I cannot believe that the USGA had the money and time to waste over hype. Also, why do some pros claim that they made/make a difference in their games. Mike — Mike Marler Information Technology, Georgia Tech
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Are you saying that square grooves are not useful in general (seems you or somebody said that only very good players can make good use of square grooves) or that square grooves in forged irons in specific are not useful. Why/why not?
I’m saying that square grooves in general are not useful. For most golfers, the grooves in a clubface NEVER have an impact on their game. Under certain conditions, grooves that allow a greater volume of grass to be consumed within them will give an advantage to a better than average golfer. As far as the manufacturing process, there are no true 90 degree (square) grooves. Cast clubs must incorporate a draft angle to allow release of the mold (usually a porcelain composite), and deformation of material in a progressive forging process would not allow a true edge perpendicular to the clubface. As with so many gimmicks in the world of golf, the square groove issue is just hype to sell clubs. If you look closely in the golf magazines, you will notice that a majority of the advertisers are selling golf equipment. If the magazine says that what they are telling you is a lie, they lose their advertising dollars. It’s kind of like the old story of the emperor’s new cloths.
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<yada yada yada As long as you’re guessing, let me guess too. Forging involves a solid die, that must be pressed in and removed.
True (several dies actually, it’s a multi-part process) Casting involves a mold that’s destructible, if I understand the "investment casting" process correctly.
True. The wax master is destroyed (burned out). It is the investment. Square grooves have zero relief for removing the mold or die. That means it can’t be done with a solid die, but it can if the mold is destroyed during removal.
You still need relief to make the wax masters for investment casting. So you can’t make perfect square (90 degree) grooves in the mold which makes the wax masters which make the cast clubhead. That means that square gooves can be cast, but would have to be machined after forging (expensive) for a forged club.
My guess is that (perfectly) square grooves must be machined into all heads. Am I close? Miko? Dick? Somone who knows?
As I said, I’m guessing too. dave
Response:
All cast clubs now have square grooves. Hmmm…. Flipping through the Golfsmith catalog rather quickly I noticed at least a half dozen cast clubs with "V" grooves.
Okay, how about *name brand* cast clubs? The square grooves are more difficult to produce and some less expensive clubheads may use v grooves to save costs. It is apparent that a sharp 90 degree steel edge will provide more bite than a 60 or so degree one, and the square grooves can be made deeper to allow more grass to be bitten through. Square grooves will give more grip on the ball at slower swing speeds or in some kinds of rough. It isn’t practical to make forged clubs with square grooves, they are all v-grooved. Why is it not practical to make forged clubs with square grooves? Aren’t the grooves typically cut after the forging process, as opposed to being forged into the head?
Cast clubs are made of hardened stainless steel and will hold that sharp 90 degree square edge for a much longer period than the softer steel of a forged club could. Rick Dwight Williamson Still WARPED after all these years!
Rick — —
Response:
All cast clubs now have square grooves. Hmmm…. Flipping through the Golfsmith catalog rather quickly I noticed at least a half dozen cast clubs with "V" grooves.
… and except for Golfsmith, few component suppliers have square grooves. The vast majority of CAST component clubheads have V-grooves. Okay, how about *name brand* cast clubs? The square grooves are more difficult to produce and some less expensive clubheads may use v grooves to save costs.
Facts, Rick? I know the Pings have square grooves. Which other OEM clubs do? I don’t think any, but if you can cite specs that say they do, I’m willing to be educated. It is apparent that a sharp 90 degree steel edge will provide more bite than a 60 or so degree one,
Rick, your understanding of this issue leaves a lot to be desired. Consider browsing over to dunkin.princeton.edu, and read my article on the history of this controversy. In brief, modern square grooves have rounded edges. Your "sharp 90 degree edge" argument has zero relevance. …and the square grooves can be made deeper to allow more grass to be bitten through.
Finally, something I’m close to agreeing with. Just a slightly different way of wording what I hope you were saying: A square groove has twice the cross-sectional area of a V-groove of the same width and depth, so it can channel twice as much grass away from the contact area. Cast clubs are made of hardened stainless steel and will hold that sharp 90 degree square edge for a much longer period than the softer steel of a forged club could.
I admit I don’t know why square grooves are more appropriate to cast heads. But the "harder steel" argument doesn’t stand up: 1. The edge isn’t sharp, so it doesn’t matter. 2. The hardness difference is less than 10%. So even if a sharp edge mattered, it would only result in a very small difference in life. As long as you’re guessing, let me guess too. Forging involves a solid die, that must be pressed in and removed. Casting involves a mold that’s destructible, if I understand the "investment casting" process correctly. Square grooves have zero relief for removing the mold or die. That means it can’t be done with a solid die, but it can if the mold is destroyed during removal. That means that square gooves can be cast, but would have to be machined after forging (expensive) for a forged club. Am I close? Miko? Dick? Somone who knows? Cheers! Dave
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Why is it not practical to make forged clubs with square grooves? Aren’t the grooves typically cut after the forging process, as opposed to being forged into the head? You’re absolutely correct, Dwight. It is practical, it’s just not useful.
Are you saying that square grooves are not useful in general (seems you or somebody said that only very good players can make good use of square grooves) or that square grooves in forged irons in specific are not useful. Why/why not? Dwight Williamson Still WARPED after all these years!
Response:
I recently read and was told that one of the stand-out things about Ping irons is that they employ square grooves. What I don’t understand is how much difference square grooves make, compared to the standard (I think) V-Grooves. Could somebody shed some light on this for me? All cast clubs now have square grooves.
Hmmm…. Flipping through the Golfsmith catalog rather quickly I noticed at least a half dozen cast clubs with "V" grooves. Square grooves will give more grip on the ball at slower swing speeds or in some kinds of rough. It isn’t practical to make forged clubs with square grooves, they are all v-grooved.
Why is it not practical to make forged clubs with square grooves? Aren’t the grooves typically cut after the forging process, as opposed to being forged into the head? Rick
Dwight Williamson Still WARPED after all these years!
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Why is it not practical to make forged clubs with square grooves? Aren’t the grooves typically cut after the forging process, as opposed to being forged into the head?
You’re absolutely correct, Dwight. It is practical, it’s just not useful.
Response:
I recently read and was told that one of the stand-out things about Ping irons is that they employ square grooves. What I don’t understand is how much difference square grooves make, compared to the standard (I think) V-Grooves. Could somebody shed some light on this for me?
If you look at the cross secton of a groove; a square groove, and a "U" shaped groove; both have a bigger cross-sectional area than the once traditional "V" groove. SO? It has been well established that from a CLEAN, DRY lie, smooth faced club will perform the same as a grooved club… From a dirty, or wet, (grassy), lie, the grooved clubface will spin the ball better than the smooth faced club. STUFF gets between the ball and the clubface, causing less friction and therefore less spinning of the ball. The grooves help channel some of this STUFF away so that the clubface and ball will make good contact, more spin. Square grooves, (and "U" grooves), HOLD MORE STUFF than the V grooves, and SOME folks think this results in better spin generation from the rough, etc. I think the square grooves loose some of their effect by being filled up with STUFF, (i.e. dirty), and PAINT! — | | db miko Mac Shack Golf PCS-Class A Clubmaker London, Ontario, CANADA
Response:
I recently read and was told that one of the stand-out things about Ping irons is that they employ square grooves. What I don’t understand is how much difference square grooves make, compared to the standard (I think) V-Grooves. Could somebody shed some light on this for me?
Square grooves allow a better caliber player to hit a ball out of the rough that will still have adequate backspin to check up on the green after impact. It is often the case that a ball hit out of the rough will be a "flyer", or a shot that tends to drive forward with only moderate backspin, and therefore less holding power. Square grooves allow a volume of the grass that would normally get caught between the ball and the face of the club to be pushed away(into the grooves) thus allowing direct contact of the ball and the clubface. For most golfers in most situations grooves of any type don’t make a lick of difference.
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I recently read and was told that one of the stand-out things about Ping irons is that they employ square grooves. What I don’t understand is how much difference square grooves make, compared to the standard (I think) V-Grooves. Could somebody shed some light on this for me?
This is given in substantial detail in my Club Design Notes, available at dunkin.princeton.edu. Cheers! | Dave Tutelman | | Physical: AT&T Bell Labs, Lincroft, NJ, USA | | Audible: Work (908) 576-2194 | | Visible: Fax (908) 576-3321 |
Response:
I recently read and was told that one of the stand-out things about Ping irons is that they employ square grooves. What I don’t understand is how much difference square grooves make, compared to the standard (I think) V-Grooves. Could somebody shed some light on this for me? Thanks m
All cast clubs now have square grooves. Square grooves will give more grip on the ball at slower swing speeds or in some kinds of rough. It isn’t practical to make forged clubs with square grooves, they are all v-grooved. I suppose you can check to see how "sharp" the groove edges are on the different club brands, but if you have a good 90-100 mph swing I don’t think these small differences are going to matter much. Thanks, Rick — —
Response:
I recently read and was told that one of the stand-out things about Ping irons is that they employ square grooves. What I don’t understand is how much difference square grooves make, compared to the standard (I think) V-Grooves. Could somebody shed some light on this for me? Thanks m