Question:
I guess I started all this, and my only point (not clearly made, I guess) was that the casual water rule seems intended to provide relief without penalty, including within a hazard, except only in the case where there is so much casual water that a drop within the hazard is not possible. Then you have to take a penalty that deprives you of the opportunity for an up and down, so the casual water ends up costing you a stroke. I can see why the rule doesn’t permit a free lift out of a bunker even when it’s filled with water, but in comparison to the result of hitting into casual water elsewhere on the course it seems like one of the many minor cruelties of the game. Kaye in Chicagoland (played twice so far this year with snow falling as I finished up)
Response:
I guess I started all this, and my only point (not clearly made, I guess) was that the casual water rule seems intended to provide relief without penalty, including within a hazard, except only in the case where there is so much casual water that a drop within the hazard is not possible. Then you have to take a penalty that deprives you of the opportunity for an up and down, so the casual water ends up costing you a stroke.
<snip I think I’m right in saying that relief will allow you to drop in another bunker if available and not nearer the hole. Sorry if someone already pointed that out. Tim
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hit into a bunker that was filled with rainwater. As I understand the casual water rule, I could drop the ball elsewhere in the bunker not closer to the hole without penalty, or drop outside the bunker on a line with where it went in, not closer to the hole, and take a stroke penalty. Seems unfair to be stuck with a penalty when the entire bunker is under water. Comments? Not really. You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. SteveR I disagree. I often aim at bunkers when I know I can’t stop the ball on the green. It is especially useful on par 5s. A sand trap completely filled with water should simply follow the rules for casual water. You should get relieve from the water, not just maximum relief. If the trap is partially filled with water, you should be allowed to re-create your original lie. Dropping into wet sand usually produces a semi-plugged lie. If you were granted relief in the fairway and your drop resulted in a semi-plugged lie, you’d probably not consider it relief. In the meantime, here’s a hint for those water filled bunkers. Try to drop on an upslope even if it’s mound from an old footprint. Also, practice your drop technique so you can aim for a rock in the sand and hopefully get a little bounce instead of a plug. Bob Dietrich
Yes, why should golf be different from any other sport? In tennis, if You hit the top of the net and the ball drops on Your side of the court, the ball is always replayed, same thing if it goes out or You get an unfriendly bounce off the markings on the court.. In football, if the pass misses by inches and the other team gets hold of it, the ball is immediately cancelled and replayed. In basketball, if You only hit the board of the net, You get two free attempts. I think they even have markings on the floor for this just in front of the basket…. Seriously, when You have X yards to the pin and You know You can get there with club Y but using Y is not an option, the game gets interesting… Ari Huhtamies http://www.sci.fi/~arih
Response:
: Who said I wanted them filled with water…..please point out in my : game as it is suppose to be played and quit your bitchen or get off the : course. Heard of rain? That is how the bunkers get filled with : water…ah just in case you didn’t know. And rules are rules afterall. <sigh Let’s start over, less we end up suggesting unorthodox grips and uses for a 5-iron, to each other. My original response was in reply to two individuals who essentially stated that: There was nothing inherently unfair about a bunker filled with water and indeed — one should consider oneself lucky when the bunker *wasn’t* filled with water. Hazards are hazards, after all. I’m not going to toggle back through the previous posts, but I think this is a reasonable account…. I took issue with these statements, because, in my view, only a moron doesn’t recognize that there are different *kinds* of hazards on a golf course, and secondly, such an attitude betrays a lack of empathy, no fundamental appreciation for the game, and a sort of smarmy braggadocio that a friendly spirited person, such as myself, despises. Nowhere did I ever say that I disobey the relevant Rule of golf, not that it matters, or suggest an alternative rule to accomodate the bizarre metamorphosis of sand trap to water hazard, simply because of rain. To illustrate the nature of this change, though, I suggested those incapable of seeing it, (eg, "Consider yourself lucky when it’s not full of water"), are logically playing as if *every* bunker were filled with water, and can’t understand why anyone would play or feel differently — an absurd position.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to : be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. : ooooh a bit testy are we……I agree with the others. It is a hazard : and if you find that hard "nosed" maybe you should be playing minature : golf that way you can make up your own rules. JMHO : belinda : cupertino, ca Is English a second or third language for you, "belinda?" I’m curious, only because you’ve entirely failed to understand the point I was making, and I’d like to make sure it’s not my fault for being excessively obtuse. Yes, bunkers are a hazard. What I don’t understand is why you’d like them to be filled with water instead of sand. Is that any more clear?
Who said I wanted them filled with water…..please point out in my game as it is suppose to be played and quit your bitchen or get off the course. Heard of rain? That is how the bunkers get filled with water…ah just in case you didn’t know. And rules are rules afterall. BTW, insult all you like I know a horses ass when I read their posts….on to the delete button. belinda cupertino, ca
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kaye…You should probably ignore anything that this SteveR fellow says, I’ve seen his other posts! Are you playing in competition or your weekend round of golf?? If you aren’t in a tournament or competition, drop behind the bunker (no closer to the hole) and finish out your round. I keep on being amazed at how tough people try to make your nice, friendly, stress-reducing weekend round of golf. Gee….ball in a divot that someone wasn’t nice enough to repair? Most people here will tell you to go ahead and chump your shot from inside the divot "you know…no moving per the rules of golf". However, I prefer not to be penalized for someone else’s laziness. I move my ball out of the divot. yes…I guess that means that I am a cheater, and I guess some people wouldn’t play with me anymore or do business with me. Oh well….life stinks, but I try to play my round of golf as something enjoyable!
However if Kaye does play competition once in a while, she will never practice this shot if she always takes a drop. How will one ever learn how to hit out of a divot, next to a tree, etc. if one always take a drop? Where I live, there aren’t many driving ranges with grass, so whenever I get into a bad situation I take it as practice for the time when I really need to hit that shot during competition. Stuart
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A sand trap completely filled with water should simply follow the rules for casual water. You should get relieve from the water, not just maximum relief.
I also can’t agree that water in a bunker is just a part of the game, not when the pros have armies of pump totiting greens keepers removing this "natural" hazard. I once played with someone who thought the rule on hitting into a full bunker was that one option for relief was to drop in another bunker, no nearer the hole. I have no idea where he got that rule, but in consider it it’s not a bad compromise between the desire to provide relief from an abnormal condition and not to avoid the bunker entirely. — Warren Montgomery Lucent Technologies, formerly AT&T’s systems and technology business
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hit into a bunker that was filled with rainwater. As I understand the casual water rule, I could drop the ball elsewhere in the bunker not closer to the hole without penalty, or drop outside the bunker on a line with where it went in, not closer to the hole, and take a stroke penalty. Seems unfair to be stuck with a penalty when the entire bunker is under water. Comments? Not really. You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. SteveR
I disagree. I often aim at bunkers when I know I can’t stop the ball on the green. It is especially useful on par 5s. A sand trap completely filled with water should simply follow the rules for casual water. You should get relieve from the water, not just maximum relief. If the trap is partially filled with water, you should be allowed to re-create your original lie. Dropping into wet sand usually produces a semi-plugged lie. If you were granted relief in the fairway and your drop resulted in a semi-plugged lie, you’d probably not consider it relief. In the meantime, here’s a hint for those water filled bunkers. Try to drop on an upslope even if it’s mound from an old footprint. Also, practice your drop technique so you can aim for a rock in the sand and hopefully get a little bounce instead of a plug. Bob Dietrich
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says… Kaye…You should probably ignore anything that this SteveR fellow says, I’ve seen his other posts! Susan
Well, Susan, a lot of us play GOLF all the time as opposed to SOME OTHER game that uses golf equipment on a golf course. With apologies for the "I take a mulligan every hole, and roll my ball out of every divot hole, move my ball from behind a tree by ONLY 20 yards, and take a free drop out of hazards and concede putts to myself if they are within 10′ of the green, BUT I’m playing GOLF. AND I went round in 44 last week." posts that this is going to start up AGAIN… SteveR PS enjoy what you play, Susan
Response:
: They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to : be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. : ooooh a bit testy are we……I agree with the others. It is a hazard : and if you find that hard "nosed" maybe you should be playing minature : golf that way you can make up your own rules. JMHO : belinda : cupertino, ca Is English a second or third language for you, "belinda?" I’m curious, only because you’ve entirely failed to understand the point I was making, and I’d like to make sure it’s not my fault for being excessively obtuse. Yes, bunkers are a hazard. What I don’t understand is why you’d like them to be filled with water instead of sand. Is that any more clear?
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to : be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. : ooooh a bit testy are we……I agree with the others. It is a hazard : and if you find that hard "nosed" maybe you should be playing minature : golf that way you can make up your own rules. JMHO : belinda : cupertino, ca Is English a second or third language for you, "belinda?" I’m curious, only because you’ve entirely failed to understand the point I was making, and I’d like to make sure it’s not my fault for being excessively obtuse. Yes, bunkers are a hazard. What I don’t understand is why you’d like them to be filled with water instead of sand. Is that any more clear?
I personally don’t WANT to see bukers filled with water, but, coming from Michigan, I’ve learned to play the course as it is, instead of (as was posted earlier) "just dropping behind the bunker" or any other such crap. Course management is a large part of the game, and being aggressive (e.g., going for the pin with a 3-iron on a hole with a deep bunker behind it) has its drawbacks. Just hit a 4-iron, or 5-iron, and lay up. Andy
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. : You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. : I concur. Bunkers are, after all, a hazard. They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. I’d love to hear your comments on some of the courses I play: 460 par-4; nail the drive, then send a 3-iron dead at the pin. Ooops. Hit it a fraction too hard….Roll off the lightning-fast green, into a kettle-bunker holding a foot of water. Sure, you’re going to say, "Oh, drat it! I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place…." Sure….
ooooh a bit testy are we……I agree with the others. It is a hazard and if you find that hard "nosed" maybe you should be playing minature golf that way you can make up your own rules. JMHO take care and watch the blood pressure not good for your golf game, belinda cupertino, ca
Response:
; ;; ;Seems unfair to be stuck with a penalty when the entire bunker ;; ;is under water. Comments? ;; ; ;; ;; Not really. ;; ;; You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. ;; You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. ;; ;; SteveR ; ; Point is, I could have hit out of the bunker and onto the green in one ;shot, if the water weren’t there. And even with water in the bunker, the ;rule says I could have had a free drop elsewhere in the bunker if the ;whole thing hadn’t been under water. But just in the situation where the ;whole bunker is under water I’m stuck with two strokes (penalty plus ;actual stroke) to get on the green. But you’re right, I consider myself ;lucky when the bunker isn’t full of water . . . and when it is . . . so ;long as I’m on the golf course! ; ;Kaye Kaye…You should probably ignore anything that this SteveR fellow says, I’ve seen his other posts! Are you playing in competition or your weekend round of golf?? If you aren’t in a tournament or competition, drop behind the bunker (no closer to the hole) and finish out your round. I keep on being amazed at how tough people try to make your nice, friendly, stress-reducing weekend round of golf. Gee….ball in a divot that someone wasn’t nice enough to repair? Most people here will tell you to go ahead and chump your shot from inside the divot "you know…no moving per the rules of golf". However, I prefer not to be penalized for someone else’s laziness. I move my ball out of the divot. yes…I guess that means that I am a cheater, and I guess some people wouldn’t play with me anymore or do business with me. Oh well….life stinks, but I try to play my round of golf as something enjoyable! Susan I speak only for myself, not my employer.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. : You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. : I concur. Bunkers are, after all, a hazard. They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. I’d love to hear your comments on some of the courses I play: 460 par-4; nail the drive, then send a 3-iron dead at the pin. Ooops. Hit it a fraction too hard….Roll off the lightning-fast green, into a kettle-bunker holding a foot of water. Sure, you’re going to say, "Oh, drat it! I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place…." Sure…. Why not hit a 4-iron short of the green and chip close for your par? 
Andy
Exactly !! Its called course management. For example, look at the tapes of the 96 British Open where the pros were hitting a long iron into a hard green/fairway combination and were hitting short of the green in order to let the ball roll on (and sometimes still through the green). I mean where’s the rule that says everybody has a right to play a course the same way everytime under all conditions?
Response:
: They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to : be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. [scenario deleted] : See… BAD course management! : You KNOW that the bunker’s there. Of course I do. There are bunkers (to some degree or another) on just about every hole I play on, on better courses. Sure as hell doesn’t stop me from going at the green, if I’ve got a look. I realize they’re going to punish an errant shot. I also realize that they’re a of a KNOWN QUALITY, though one can have some pretty rotten lies (eg, against the lip, buried, etc). What I dislike is when their quality changes OUT OF PROPORTION to intent, just because of rain. : if you do actually hit only perfect shots then you have hit your drive to : wrong place (leaving your 2nd shot such that the bunker is liable to come : into play) by lack of thought and planning. Oh, man….Give me a break. Sure, on some holes, the pattern of bunkering is such that placement of the drive matters a great deal. The reality, however, is most of the time, sending the approach into the bunker is the result of nothing more than a less than ideal shot, which all of us hit. By your bizarre logic, going into a bunker on a par-3 is the result of poor course management. "Well, lessee…. I think I’ll use my putter, to knock the ball 20 yards sideways, giving me a better look on my second…." : IMHO, a HAZARD is meant to be a HAZARD, not a bare but fluffy piece of sunken : fairway. Well, that’s between you and the architects, then. What you obviously want is an island green on every hole. I’m sure it pains you horribly, when the groundskeepers don’t fill in each and every bunker to the lip with water, prior to tournaments. Wonder why the don’t — that’s in keeping, after all, with the real spirit of this hazard, according to your interpretation.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wr ites: : You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. : You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. : I concur. Bunkers are, after all, a hazard. They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. I’d love to hear your comments on some of the courses I play: 460 par-4; nail the drive, then send a 3-iron dead at the pin. Ooops. Hit it a fraction too hard….Roll off the lightning-fast green, into a kettle-bunker holding a foot of water. Sure, you’re going to say, "Oh, drat it! I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place…." Sure…. Why not hit a 4-iron short of the green and chip close for your par?
Yes, totally agree (as I just replied myself before reading this). SteveR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Andy
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. : You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. : I concur. Bunkers are, after all, a hazard. They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. I’d love to hear your comments on some of the courses I play: 460 par-4; nail the drive, then send a 3-iron dead at the pin. Ooops. Hit it a fraction too hard….Roll off the lightning-fast green, into a kettle-bunker holding a foot of water. Sure, you’re going to say, "Oh, drat it! I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place…." Sure….
See… BAD course management! You KNOW that the bunker’s there. You hit it a FRACTION too hard… where’s your allowance for error, then? You EXPECT to hit PERFECT shots EVERY time? You have better expectations than Faldo, Nicklaus, Couples, etc. then. And if you do actually hit only perfect shots then you have hit your drive to the wrong place (leaving your 2nd shot such that the bunker is liable to come into play) by lack of thought and planning. And then compounding it by not thinking out your second shot. You are NOT compelled to attempt to albatross (double eagle in USA-speak), eagle, or birdie every hole. Instead of the 3-iron wouldn’t a lay up with a 4 or even 5-iron, a chip and single putt give you a par anyway? (Beside that, isn’t a 460 yard hole a 3-wood, 6-iron hole 
). IMHO, a HAZARD is meant to be a HAZARD, not a bare but fluffy piece of sunken fairway. Casual water therein should be treated as casual water within a WATER HAZARD (ie no relief). They should not be raked, smoothed or manicured in any way. I.e. should be a punishment and not a piece of light relief. SteveR
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. : You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. : I concur. Bunkers are, after all, a hazard. They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. I’d love to hear your comments on some of the courses I play: 460 par-4; nail the drive, then send a 3-iron dead at the pin. Ooops. Hit it a fraction too hard….Roll off the lightning-fast green, into a kettle-bunker holding a foot of water. Sure, you’re going to say, "Oh, drat it! I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place…." Sure….
If You would have hit the pin with the same shot and the ball had dropped in the cup, I am sure You would not have accepted the eagle because, as You said, You had hit it afraction too hard and didn’t actually deserve it. Ari Huhtamies http://www.sci.fi/~arih
Response:
Hit into a bunker that was filled with rainwater. As I understand the casual water rule, I could drop the ball elsewhere in the bunker not closer to the hole without penalty, or drop outside the bunker on a line with where it went in, not closer to the hole, and take a stroke penalty. Seems unfair to be stuck with a penalty when the entire bunker is under water. Comments?
Not really. You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. SteveR
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. : You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. : I concur. Bunkers are, after all, a hazard. They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. I’d love to hear your comments on some of the courses I play: 460 par-4; nail the drive, then send a 3-iron dead at the pin. Ooops. Hit it a fraction too hard….Roll off the lightning-fast green, into a kettle-bunker holding a foot of water. Sure, you’re going to say, "Oh, drat it! I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place…." Sure….
Why not hit a 4-iron short of the green and chip close for your par? Andy
Response:
something interesting…
penalty. Seems unfair to be stuck with a penalty when the entire bunker is under water. Comments? Not really. You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water.
Hello Steve, I recalled reading a story somewhere that described how Tom Kite managed to win either a major or some other big tournament. Apparently, it was a pretty long course with pretty thick stuff if he missed the greens to far. As I recall the story, Kite actually went shooting for the sand on several occasions and counted on his bunker skills to hold onto par for the hole. I think I read about this in one of Harvey Penick’s books where Harvey was lamenting on how easy bunkers have become. Guess that’s golf! Regards, Andy
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Moan, moan, moan …. I wish I could hit the green in two on a 460 par 4. Count your blessings and use a 4 iron! ;-D Greg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. : You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. : I concur. Bunkers are, after all, a hazard. They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. I’d love to hear your comments on some of the courses I play: 460 par-4; nail the drive, then send a 3-iron dead at the pin. Ooops. Hit it a fraction too hard….Roll off the lightning-fast green, into a kettle-bunker holding a foot of water. Sure, you’re going to say, "Oh, drat it! I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place…." Sure….
Response:
Seems unfair to be stuck with a penalty when the entire bunker is under water. Comments? Not really. You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. SteveR
Point is, I could have hit out of the bunker and onto the green in one shot, if the water weren’t there. And even with water in the bunker, the rule says I could have had a free drop elsewhere in the bunker if the whole thing hadn’t been under water. But just in the situation where the whole bunker is under water I’m stuck with two strokes (penalty plus actual stroke) to get on the green. But you’re right, I consider myself lucky when the bunker isn’t full of water . . . and when it is . . . so long as I’m on the golf course! Kaye
Response:
: You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. : You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water. : I concur. Bunkers are, after all, a hazard. They aren’t a WATER HAZARD though, and were never intended to be. Jesus — what a bunch of hard-asses y’all are, on this issue. I’d love to hear your comments on some of the courses I play: 460 par-4; nail the drive, then send a 3-iron dead at the pin. Ooops. Hit it a fraction too hard….Roll off the lightning-fast green, into a kettle-bunker holding a foot of water. Sure, you’re going to say, "Oh, drat it! I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place…." Sure….
Response:
Hit into a bunker that was filled with rainwater. As I understand the casual water rule, I could drop the ball elsewhere in the bunker not closer to the hole without penalty, or drop outside the bunker on a line with where it went in, not closer to the hole, and take a stroke penalty. Seems unfair to be stuck with a penalty when the entire bunker is under water. Comments? Not really. You weren’t supposed to be in the bunker in the first place. You must consider yourself lucky when the bunker ISN’T full of water.
I concur. Bunkers are, after all, a hazard. Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -SteveR