My brother spends a lot of time in South East Asia, but he doesn’t buy clubs there. Instead, he takes a few U.S. clubs to Japan every time he goes there, and sells them.
I brought a Big Bertha driver for my brother-in-law in Thailand a few years ago. It was my wife’s idea and I argued that he could certainly get one cheaper there if we just sent him the money instead. When I made my trip I found out I was wrong. The proline stuff there was just as expensive. Thank goodness the same wasn’t true for the green fees!! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Agreed, unless you go to China and find those knockoffs. I saw a set of Nike Forged irons and they were only half the price in U.S. My friend told me that they were not "real" but just by looking at them I couldn’t tell the difference.
Does anyone know if golf equipment is cheap in the Asia regions and if there is any websites or places to visit. of particular interest is Malaysia and Thailand????
I think you can visit Thaniya Tower. There are a lot of golf shops for both new and used clubs. Arch
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know if golf equipment is cheap in the Asia regions and if there is any websites or places to visit. of particular interest is Malaysia and Thailand????
Does anyone know if golf equipment is cheap in the Asia regions and if there is any websites or places to visit. of particular interest is Malaysia and Thailand????
I wouldn’t say that golf equipment is cheap here in Malaysia. If you could give me an idea of something you are looking for, then I’ll gladly tell you the local price converted into US Dollars, or any other currency for that matter. Regards, Laifer
I did a search awhile back for "airless" tires and couldn’t find any to match the size. On a positive note, I called Sun Mountain today about my bad tire and they are sending me a replacement. Can’t ask for much better customer service then that!! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
They could come to the house and change it for you.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did a search awhile back for "airless" tires and couldn’t find any to match the size. On a positive note, I called Sun Mountain today about my bad tire and they are sending me a replacement. Can’t ask for much better customer service then that!! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
My SpeedCart hasn’t had any punctures, and I take it into the native grass quite often. It rolls quite well there, considering.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One last question: have any of you that have pneumatic tire carts ever had a puncture happen on a course? I can’t think of a place on ours where it could occur, but I’m not going to be arrogantly foolish about it, either. I’ll probably get some kind of liner. Cheap insurance, seems like. Peter, is your course still owned by AGC (or whoever bought them?) The ambassadors at our course used to get a cost-plus deal on pro-shop stock (except balls). I got mine for $125, IIRC. If you play desert courses – like Horn Rapids of RSG-NW rota fame – you have to be able to keep the ball …. or at least the cart …. on the fairway!! Lots of little cactii out in what looks to be sand & sagebrush. :)
Horn Rapids had fairways? All I remember seeing was sagebrush and multi-colored texturized greens. Eliyahu
Thank you all for your input. I’m looking forward to getting the cart, which hopefully will be forthcoming as a birthday and/or Chanukah gift. I’ve certainly made my wish known. Now to check the proshop to see if I can help my loved ones get a good price! One last question: have any of you that have pneumatic tire carts ever had a puncture happen on a course? I can’t think of a place on ours where it could occur, but I’m not going to be arrogantly foolish about it, either. I’ll probably get some kind of liner. Cheap insurance, seems like. Thanks again, all, Peter
One last question: have any of you that have pneumatic tire carts ever had a puncture happen on a course? I can’t think of a place on ours where it could occur, but I’m not going to be arrogantly foolish about it, either. I’ll probably get some kind of liner. Cheap insurance, seems like.
Peter, is your course still owned by AGC (or whoever bought them?) The ambassadors at our course used to get a cost-plus deal on pro-shop stock (except balls). I got mine for $125, IIRC. If you play desert courses – like Horn Rapids of RSG-NW rota fame – you have to be able to keep the ball …. or at least the cart …. on the fairway!! Lots of little cactii out in what looks to be sand & sagebrush. :) I don’t know when in the round I picked up the cactus needle, but it took more than 24 hrs or so for the tire to go flat. I’ve had it a couple of years and have had only the one incident. Dave
Peter, is your course still owned by AGC (or whoever bought them?) The ambassadors at our course used to get a cost-plus deal on pro-shop stock (except balls). I got mine for $125, IIRC. If you play desert courses – like Horn Rapids of RSG-NW rota fame – you have to be able to keep the ball …. or at least the cart …. on the fairway!! Lots of little cactii out in what looks to be sand & sagebrush. :) I don’t know when in the round I picked up the cactus needle, but it took more than 24 hrs or so for the tire to go flat. I’ve had it a couple of years and have had only the one incident.
Thanks, Dave, and yes, AGC still runs it, and I’m going to check in the proshop in the morning before my round. p.
I’ve given enough glowing testimonials for the Sun Mtn, so I won’t repeat. Only downside to Sun Mtn is that even folded, it still uses a fair amount of trunk space. I have a fairly large trunk — 94 Camry. Lots of room, really. And there’s always the back seat if there are two of us, which is sometimes the case. But it’s good to know. Thanks.
I have pinched myself taking it in and out of my vehicle. I keep my bag in my van all the time, but not my Sun Mtn cart, because of its size. When I do carry it, I don’t put it in the back, but have it next to the sliding door. While it is unfolded and on the ground, it can’t be beat though.
I just a week ago bought one of those small air compressors that plug into the cigarette lighter socket, having had a flat just a couple of weeks ago and all its attendant misery. I might just be able to use that…it’s got bicycle tire accessories, IIRC. That’d be quick and easy. The unit came from a local auto parts place, cost under $20.
I have one of those just for emergencies with car tires. I’d certainly use it if I were pumping up my cart tires from dead flat. For me, the hassle with the Sun Mountain tires isn’t the pumping, it’s getting the pump connected to those tiny, buried valve stems (I have big, stiff, not very agile fingers). Even with the little pump that came with the cart I can top off a tire with relatively few strokes once it’s hooked up. Having said all that, if something happened to my push cart I’d buy another just like it. It is clearly a well-made and well-designed piece of machinery. When I brought it home, my wife’s first comment was "That’s the nicest piece of golf equipment I’ve ever seen you bring home". Actually, it cost more than any single golf club I’ve ever bought (by a long shot). Brent Hutto
I just a week ago bought one of those small air compressors that plug into the cigarette lighter socket, having had a flat just a couple of weeks ago and all its attendant misery. I might just be able to use that…it’s got bicycle tire accessories, IIRC. That’d be quick and easy. The unit came from a local auto parts place, cost under $20. I have one of those just for emergencies with car tires. I’d certainly use it if I were pumping up my cart tires from dead flat. For me, the hassle with the Sun Mountain tires isn’t the pumping, it’s getting the pump connected to those tiny, buried valve stems (I have big, stiff, not very agile fingers).
Back during my bike shop years, I also used to deal with small tires for wheelchairs. (The front ones…) One of the options we had were tubes with bent valves for wheels that didn’t permit easy access to a straight valve. Depending on the size of the Sun Mountain wheels, you might be able to find some to fit. Check bike stores and medical supply stores, but be prepared to pay about five times as much at the med supply store. (The grey rubber pneumatic tires I sold for $7.95 were selling at the med shop for $49.00 each, and the tubes that I sold for $2.95 went for $14.00 there.) If you change the tubes, see if they also have them in thorn resistant… it helps. Eliyahu
There is another route, there is a tire tube replacement that won’t go flat. It replaces the inner tube and is puncture resistant as well as, how can I describe it, sort of "never deflated" so that even if you lose air it still rolls quite well. I don’t know if thye make them for tires as small as the Sun Mountain tires, but it would stop having to bother with checking the air pressure frequently.
Rick, if you can think of a brandname, I’d like to know that. And I can ask at a bike store, too, I s’pose. Thanks. p.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That would be a pain to have a flat. Bent, did you Sun Mountain come with an air pump? I noticed the ones in our pro shop come with a pump. I wondered why, but your experience might suggest a reason. Yes, mine came with the pump when I bought it back in late September. So far, I haven’t had an actual puncture. But after a couple of weeks sitting in the garage the tires seem to lose a few psi and one tire or another eventually gets down 10-12 psi below full inflation and I have to pump it up. The cart rolls noticably less well when one or more tires get down in the 24-25psi range. I usually try to pump them up to a full 40psi. There is another route, there is a tire tube replacement that won’t go flat. It replaces the inner tube and is puncture resistant as well as, how can I describe it, sort of "never deflated" so that even if you lose air it still rolls quite well. I don’t know if thye make them for tires as small as the Sun Mountain tires, but it would stop having to bother with checking the air pressure frequently. I’m going to ask next time I’m in the bike store and see if such an option exists for these small tires. Brent Hutto
I just a week ago bought one of those small air compressors that plug into the cigarette lighter socket, having had a flat just a couple of weeks ago and all its attendant misery. I might just be able to use that…it’s got bicycle tire accessories, IIRC. That’d be quick and easy. The unit came from a local auto parts place, cost under $20.
Sun Mountain is the best IMO. With the addition of the brake this new model is wonderful. I like the Granite color (holiday hint…<g). It is stout without being heavy. Adjusts in a lot of ways. Rolls like a dream. Folds up easily. and the company is a good one to do business with. When I can get the extra bucks, this is the one I’m buying. Don’t you get a discount at your course for being chief marshal or whatever? Seems they ought to just give you one.
I forgot all about that! I’m checking it out first thing Monday! Thanks for mentioning that! Sheesh! P.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter, I saw an EZ in a shop. I have no experience with it on the course, but it looked very "flimsy" compared to my Sun Mountain. Materials-wise, I’d say that it’s relative value has it priced much less than the Sun Mtn for a reason. I could see it getting damaged in a trunk full of gear. Didn’t like the look of the wheels, either. The axels/bearings just looked cheap. This was probably more than a year ago, though, and they may have had a chance to rectify the problems. Even so, I definitely would not order one unless you’ve actually seen one up close and personal. I’ve given enough glowing testimonials for the Sun Mtn, so I won’t repeat. Only downside to Sun Mtn is that even folded, it still uses a fair amount of trunk space.
I have a fairly large trunk — 94 Camry. Lots of room, really. And there’s always the back seat if there are two of us, which is sometimes the case. But it’s good to know. Thanks. ……. Oh, that and the tires can get flats!!! I ran into some cactus. I heard someone recommend the goo they put in bike tires. Makes sense to me.
Thanks much for your info, Dave. Appreciate the feedback from all of you: Dave, Dave, and Rick. Peter
Thanks for that feedback, Dave. What, pray, is a tire liner? Is that anything like an inner tube?
It’s a roll of material that you place inside the tire before you put in the inner tube. The most popular is a brand called Mr. Tuffy and it comes in various widths. And did you ask Sun Mtn about the problem, and if so, what did they say/do?
No but I’m going to–perhaps I can get a replacement tire from them. One more point – I drive a VW Jetta and have no problem getting my bag and the cart in the trunk (but there’s no room for anything else once they are in). That’s it…I’m off for my first round at Gulf Winds GC since March! It’s not nearly as cold as the weatherman predicted–should be great!! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
I’ve had the Sun Mountain one for a couple months. Its build quality is really top-notch, clearly better than the other brands I’ve seen. But then again, they expect you to pay a top price for it. With some of the nagging orthopedic problems I’ve had lately, the push cart pretty much enables me to play golf. I’m glad they showed up on the market when they did. Other than choosing a brand, the way I see it there’s one fundamental choice that you have to make. The Sun Mountain (and maybe one or more other brands) has pneumatic tires, like a bicycle. They roll wonderfully well when they’re fully inflated but it’s the "fully inflated" part that’s a real pain in the butt. About every other week I have to put air in one or two of the tires. I hate fiddling with those tiny, little valve stems way down in between those tiny, little spokes. What a pain! It might be worth having one of the cheaper carts with solid-rubber wheels just to avoid the hassle. Not to mention the possibility of punctures that other people have mentioned here. I’m sure the solid tires don’t roll as freely but I really dread checking the tire pressure on Saturday night so I can be ready to play Sunday morning. And the cart doesn’t roll well at all if you let the tires go a little slack. Brent Hutto
That would be a pain to have a flat. Bent, did you Sun Mountain come with an air pump? I noticed the ones in our pro shop come with a pump. I wondered why, but your experience might suggest a reason.
Yes, mine came with the pump when I bought it back in late September. So far, I haven’t had an actual puncture. But after a couple of weeks sitting in the garage the tires seem to lose a few psi and one tire or another eventually gets down 10-12 psi below full inflation and I have to pump it up. The cart rolls noticably less well when one or more tires get down in the 24-25psi range. I usually try to pump them up to a full 40psi. There is another route, there is a tire tube replacement that won’t go flat. It replaces the inner tube and is puncture resistant as well as, how can I describe it, sort of "never deflated" so that even if you lose air it still rolls quite well. I don’t know if thye make them for tires as small as the Sun Mountain tires, but it would stop having to bother with checking the air pressure frequently.
I’m going to ask next time I’m in the bike store and see if such an option exists for these small tires. Brent Hutto
Thanks for that feedback, Dave. What, pray, is a tire liner? Is that anything like an inner tube? Peter, The site below shows a tire liner (actually 3) but the links were’nt operational for me. It does show you what they look like.
You can find them at just about any bicycle store. They come in different widths, so take the cart with you or note the tire size (if it’s embossed on the sides of the tires). Eliyahu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I use them in my duck hunting cart. They go against the inside wall of the tire before you put the tube in and help prevent thorns, brads, etc. from puncturing the tires. Adds a bit of weight but not enough to notice. This is the Mr. Tuffy brand, there are others as well. http://www.mrtuffy.com/mrtuffy/index.htm Rick
Peter, The site below shows a tire liner (actually 3) but the links were’nt operational for me. It does show you what they look like. I use them in my duck hunting cart. They go against the inside wall of the tire before you put the tube in and help prevent thorns, brads, etc. from puncturing the tires. Adds a bit of weight but not enough to notice. This is the Mr. Tuffy brand, there are others as well. http://www.mrtuffy.com/mrtuffy/index.htm
Yep, I yahoo’d and found that, and also found the non-working links. Dumbass site. But I’ll check them out at, I guess, a bicycle store. Thanks.
You can find them at just about any bicycle store. They come in different widths, so take the cart with you or note the tire size (if it’s embossed on the sides of the tires).
Thanks. Will do.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve had the Sun Mountain one for a couple months. Its build quality is really top-notch, clearly better than the other brands I’ve seen. But then again, they expect you to pay a top price for it. With some of the nagging orthopedic problems I’ve had lately, the push cart pretty much enables me to play golf. I’m glad they showed up on the market when they did. Other than choosing a brand, the way I see it there’s one fundamental choice that you have to make. The Sun Mountain (and maybe one or more other brands) has pneumatic tires, like a bicycle. They roll wonderfully well when they’re fully inflated but it’s the "fully inflated" part that’s a real pain in the butt. About every other week I have to put air in one or two of the tires. I hate fiddling with those tiny, little valve stems way down in between those tiny, little spokes. What a pain! It might be worth having one of the cheaper carts with solid-rubber wheels just to avoid the hassle. Not to mention the possibility of punctures that other people have mentioned here. I’m sure the solid tires don’t roll as freely but I really dread checking the tire pressure on Saturday night so I can be ready to play Sunday morning. And the cart doesn’t roll well at all if you let the tires go a little slack. Brent Hutto
Appreciate the comments, Brent. However, I’m going to go with the Sun Mtn, b/c all the comments seem to point me that way, in terms of quality. And I might just carry an air-goo can or a small pump with me. I did notice one brand that has a pump attached to the frame. Pretty telling! Sun doesn’t even mention the possibility!
Would very much like to know what folks’ experiences have been with these three brands of 3-wheel push carts: Sun Mountain, EZ, and BagBoy, all of which are on p.55 of the latest catalog from The Golf Warehouse. The prices are pretty varied: Sun Mtn is 179, EZ is 89, and BagBoy is 109. I’d appreciate hearing from anyone with any of these. I know Sun Mountain has a fine reputation, but don’t know much about the other two at all. Thanks in advance, Peter
Would very much like to know what folks’ experiences have been with these three brands of 3-wheel push carts: Sun Mountain, EZ, and BagBoy, all of which are on p.55 of the latest catalog from The Golf Warehouse. The prices are pretty varied: Sun Mtn is 179, EZ is 89, and BagBoy is 109. I’d appreciate hearing from anyone with any of these. I know Sun Mountain has a fine reputation, but don’t know much about the other two at all.
I have the Sun Mountain and it’s great although I have had a problem with flat tires. One of the back tires got a flat soon after I got it so I put tire liners in both of the back tires and haven’t had any problems since. I just had to do that to the front tire and when I took the tire off I found that the bead was separating from the tire. I’ll eventually replace the tire but for now I just keep the pressure pretty low. Other than that, I love the cart–I’ll never go back to pulling. I saw the Bag Boy in a shop here and that sucker was BIG–looked much bulkier than the Speed Cart. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Would very much like to know what folks’ experiences have been with these three brands of 3-wheel push carts: Sun Mountain, EZ, and BagBoy, all of which are on p.55 of the latest catalog from The Golf Warehouse. The prices are pretty varied: Sun Mtn is 179, EZ is 89, and BagBoy is 109. I’d appreciate hearing from anyone with any of these. I know Sun Mountain has a fine reputation, but don’t know much about the other two at all.
Peter, I saw an EZ in a shop. I have no experience with it on the course, but it looked very "flimsy" compared to my Sun Mountain. Materials-wise, I’d say that it’s relative value has it priced much less than the Sun Mtn for a reason. I could see it getting damaged in a trunk full of gear. Didn’t like the look of the wheels, either. The axels/bearings just looked cheap. This was probably more than a year ago, though, and they may have had a chance to rectify the problems. Even so, I definitely would not order one unless you’ve actually seen one up close and personal. I’ve given enough glowing testimonials for the Sun Mtn, so I won’t repeat. Only downside to Sun Mtn is that even folded, it still uses a fair amount of trunk space. ……. Oh, that and the tires can get flats!!! I ran into some cactus. I heard someone recommend the goo they put in bike tires. Makes sense to me. Dave
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would very much like to know what folks’ experiences have been with these three brands of 3-wheel push carts: Sun Mountain, EZ, and BagBoy, all of which are on p.55 of the latest catalog from The Golf Warehouse. The prices are pretty varied: Sun Mtn is 179, EZ is 89, and BagBoy is 109. I’d appreciate hearing from anyone with any of these. I know Sun Mountain has a fine reputation, but don’t know much about the other two at all. I have the Sun Mountain and it’s great although I have had a problem with flat tires. One of the back tires got a flat soon after I got it so I put tire liners in both of the back tires and haven’t had any problems since. I just had to do that to the front tire and when I took the tire off I found that the bead was separating from the tire. I’ll eventually replace the tire but for now I just keep the pressure pretty low.
Thanks for that feedback, Dave. What, pray, is a tire liner? Is that anything like an inner tube? And did you ask Sun Mtn about the problem, and if so, what did they say/do? Other than that, I love the cart–I’ll never go back to pulling. I saw the Bag Boy in a shop here and that sucker was BIG–looked much bulkier than the Speed Cart.
It looks a lot bigger, even in the pictures in the catalog, for sure.
I seem to recall a story about some wisbang lawyer/flyshop owner that sued a rod manufacturer over the price fixing on fly gear- and won, because price dictating is illegal, but somehow the rods he subsequently ordered for his shop were always out of stock, discontinued or whatever. jh
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Flyfishing tackle fits into a higher order of goods. Once you buy the things you need to satisfy the need for food, shelter and safety you are subjected to the five basic commodities of modern marketing. The five basics are Greed, Sex, Ego, Vanity and Escape. Lots of flyfishing tackle and paraphernalia fall into the ego and vanity category. Ain’t that the truth, BJ? I’ll go for Escape, but Vanity and Ego are always lurking in the wings, ready to grab me and suck me under the vortex of total gear bankruptcy. Regarding Greed and Sex, I’ll leave those to the true gear whores. 
The more I flyfish, the more I find myself slipping into a kind of reverse gear snobbery. Why buy a fabulously expensive Winston 3wt when a Cabela’s Three Forks will do just fine? Why buy expensive floatant when Albolene is just as effective? Don’t get me started on fluorocarbon leaders.
I seem to recall a story about some wisbang lawyer/flyshop owner that sued a rod manufacturer over the price fixing on fly gear- and won, because price dictating is illegal, but somehow the rods he subsequently ordered for his shop were always out of stock, discontinued or whatever.
Interesting. Sueing and winning is one thing. Collecting is something altogether different.
Sueing and winning is one thing. Collecting is something altogether different.
I suppose this means I’m not going to get my nickel. 
Wolfgang well, i guess that’s just the way it is when god’s on the other guy’s side.
Something struck me as being interesting the other day when the new Hunter’s Angling catalog came in the mail. The price of fly fishing equipment (rods, reels, tying material) seem to be very consistent no matter where you buy it from. I am a firm believer of supporting local economy so this makes a great case for buying from your local fly shop. Tiemco hooks run about $4.40 a 25 count package no matter where you go. A Renzetti Traveler vice is $159 if I buy it from Cabella’s, Orvis, or my local fly shop. A Whiting grade 1 cape is going to run $70 from all the above mentioned places. Simms Lightweight wading boots are $125 across the board. The list goes on and on. It seems to me that the only practical reason to buy mail order is if local fly shop doesn’t have what you’re looking for ( i.e. a certain color strung hackle or what not). This is in sharp contrast to my other hobby drag racing. Speed parts are *much* cheaper online then they are at the local auto parts stores. You could make a case that you don’t get the personal attention that you would get from a local store. However, the local baboon that they just hired for $5 hr. at Autozone has no idea how to properly size a carburetor or get me whatever it is I’m looking for without a hassle. Don’t get me wrong I try to buy local whenever possible but there is a balance point when I need to look elsewhere. My question becomes, what is it that is keeping the economics of our sport at such a controlled level? It really seems like there isn’t much competition in the market. Are the manufactures dictating what you will or will not sell their product for? Maybe one of the shop owners that frequent the board could comment on this. Nate Gillette
My question becomes, what is it that is keeping the economics of our sport at such a controlled level? It really seems like there isn’t much competition in the market. Are the manufactures dictating what you will or will not sell their product for? Maybe one of the shop owners that frequent the board could comment on this.
Manufacturers will not allow retailers to sell at a discount. It’s as simple as that.
My question becomes, what is it that is keeping the economics of our sport at such a controlled level? It really seems like there isn’t much competition in the market. Are the manufactures dictating what you will or will not sell their product for? Maybe one of the shop owners that frequent the board could comment on this. Manufacturers will not allow retailers to sell at a discount. It’s as simple as that.
Even if they did, I don’t think fly shop owners are raking in the big dough. It’s not like they’re a "Wal-Mart" operation that sells tons of stuff at slim margins. They’re specialty shops catering to a small segment of the population selling basically specialty items. I spent about an hour in a local shop last week, and no one else entered the store while I was there. I’d hate to see them get involved in discounting to any large degree because I want to make sure they are still around the next time I need them. — TL, Tim
Manufacturers will not allow retailers to sell at a discount. It’s as simple as that. Even if they did, I don’t think fly shop owners are raking in the big dough.
I don’t think they’re raking in the big dough, either. However, if a fly shop owner wants to give his best customers (for example) a 5% discount on Sage rods or Abel reels, he can’t. That doesn’t seem fair to me. It may be legal, but it’s not fair. Just my opinion. I really don’t understand why flyfishing tackle should be priced in a way any different than toilet paper and baby wipes. The efficient fly shops should be able to sell their products at a discount, if they wish. Customer service is certainly a big part of running a successful fly shop, but that doesn’t rule out flexible pricing. A flyshop could generate an awful lot of good will with even modest discounts.
… However, if a fly shop owner wants to give his best customers (for example) a 5% discount on Sage rods or Abel reels, he can’t. That doesn’t seem fair to me. It may be legal, but it’s not fair. …
However unfair it may seem, the no discount policy actually protects small volume flyshops from the "Wal-Mart" syndrome. A "Wal-Mart" type big volume flyshop could afford to sell Sages and Abels at cost and make their profit on Rio leaders (for example). The small volume shop could not. — Ken Fortenberry
… However, if a fly shop owner wants to give his best customers (for example) a 5% discount on Sage rods or Abel reels, he can’t. That doesn’t seem fair to me. It may be legal, but it’s not fair. … However unfair it may seem, the no discount policy actually protects small volume flyshops from the "Wal-Mart" syndrome. A "Wal-Mart" type big volume flyshop could afford to sell Sages and Abels at cost and make their profit on Rio leaders (for example). The small volume shop could not.
That’s one way to look at it. Another way is that the "no discount" policy (imposed by the big, prestigous maufacturers) protects the manufacturers from price competition. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they were in cahoots with a "gentleman’s agreement." There’s a big sporting goods retailer in the West called Sportsman’s Warehouse. I stopped by one in Idaho Falls (for the first time) on my way to the HF Clave, to buy a pontoon boat anchor, and ended up buying a whole shitload of stuff. I couldn’t believe their prices and their selection — it was fantastic — and their customer service was superb. I didn’t bother checking the prices on name-brand flyfishing tackle, though. Why bother?
… the no discount policy actually protects small volume flyshops … That’s one way to look at it. Another way is that the "no discount" policy (imposed by the big, prestigous maufacturers) protects the manufacturers from price competition. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they were in cahoots with a "gentleman’s agreement."
… Price fixing ? I don’t think that price fixing on Sages, Winstons, Hardys and Abels would even be worth considering when most of the flyfishing consumers are buying Cabela’s. But stranger conspiracy theories have been posited in this forum. 
— Ken Fortenberry
My question becomes, what is it that is keeping the economics of our sport at such a controlled level? It really seems like there isn’t much competition in the market.
I don’t know the intricate details of the merchandising of fishing gear, or what kind of agreements exist among manufacturers and retailers, but I can assure you that if "at such a controlled level" means that prices are similar, the the textbook asnswer is: competition. Any economics text will tell you that the most competitive markets are those in which there are many sellers, each with a small share of the market and thus no control over prices, and consequently, all charging the same price. The classic example of the competitive market is that in which the "Kansas wheat farmer" sells his crop. This may sound strange, because people tend to think of "competitive markets" as those in which a small number of sellers make a huge amount of noise, advertising all kinds of bargains and deals (e.g., automobiles), but in fact those are the *least* competitive markets; they are "oligopolies." There may be only one fishing tackle store in a typical town, but with the many catalogs we all receive, from retailers selling identical rods and reels, the conditions of a "competitive market" are reasonably well approximated. vince norris
The classic example of the competitive market is that in which the "Kansas wheat farmer" sells his crop.
That is in NO WAY similar to the market for high-end flyfishing tackle. The Kansas wheat farmer sells his crop into a futures market. Commodities brokers determine the price he gets, according to supply and demand. It’s nearly perfect capitalism at work. High-end flyfishing tackle manufacturers dictate the prices that retailers can charge. It’s a captive market.
Something struck me as being interesting the other day when the new Hunter’s Angling catalog came in the mail. The price of fly fishing equipment (rods, reels, tying material) seem to be very consistent no matter where you buy it from.
Some local shops, depending on location, are more expensive. Then again, many shops do both an internet and local business, and it makes for items to be priced the same no matter how you buy from them. It seems to me that the only practical reason to buy mail order is if local fly shop doesn’t have what you’re looking for
Assuming there *is* a local shop. My question becomes, what is it that is keeping the economics of our sport at such a controlled level? It really seems like there isn’t much competition in the market. Are the manufactures dictating what you will or will not sell their product for? Maybe one of the shop owners that frequent the board could comment on this.
I really don’t think it’s any different from the other industries. I think you just hit on a couple local anecdotes.
I really don’t think it’s any different from the other industries. I think you just hit on a couple local anecdotes. Expensive flyfishing gear is a boutique industry, just like expensive audio gear. And sellers’ prices most definitely are set by the manufacturers.
At first I was inclined to agree, but there’s a lot of overlap. True, you’re not going in to your local Wal-Mart and find Krell amplifiers, but then again my local Jumbo Sports has plenty of fly fishing equipment, soccer equipment, golf equipment, etc, and there are plenty of "boutique" where all those are sold too. Besides, how do you determine the difference between a sale price and regular price? What difference does it make if I bought a Loomis rod for $385 "on sale" or "at discount"? I’m not sure how the manufacturer can regulate that.
Besides, how do you determine the difference between a sale price and regular price? What difference does it make if I bought a Loomis rod for $385 "on sale" or "at discount"? I’m not sure how the manufacturer can regulate that.
I’m not sure about Loomis, but if a retailer discounts Sage rods he will no longer do business with Sage. A retailer can probably discount discontinued models, but that’s about it.
That is in NO WAY similar to the market for high-end flyfishing tackle. The Kansas wheat farmer sells his crop into a futures market. Commodities brokers determine the price he gets, according to supply and demand. It’s nearly perfect capitalism at work. High-end flyfishing tackle manufacturers dictate the prices that retailers can charge. It’s a captive market.
Wheat is a indistinguishable commodity ( to most people -). Perfect commodity when discussing classic economics. Flyfishing tackle fits into a higher order of goods. Once you buy the things you need to satisfy the need for food, shelter and safety you are subjected to the five basic commodities of modern marketing. The five basics are Greed, Sex, Ego, Vanity and Escape. Lots of flyfishing tackle and paraphernalia fall into the ego and vanity category. Advertising and price are the two most common ways to elevate goods into the ego and vanity market. Sage, Scott and other rods wouldn’t be the same (even if they were exactly the same) to a lot of people if they were heavily discounted and sold at K-Mart. No status in having the same rod as every other redneck on the river. I’m not trying to resurrect the common whining about price vs. performance etc. Just stating how it marketed. Lots of Cabelas and Lamiglass rods that are just as good as Scotts and Sages. However if I win Powerball this week watch for me on the Siletz with a new Sage spey rod and a Ballan reel.
The classic example of the competitive market is that in which the "Kansas wheat farmer" sells his crop.
That is in NO WAY similar to the market for high-end flyfishing tackle….. Well, it is similar on ONE way: As the previous poster said, the prices are the same from one seller to the next. High-end flyfishing tackle manufacturers dictate the prices that retailers can charge. It’s a captive market.
I know nothing about law, but is that legal? Is it always legal, legal under certain circumstances, or what? I seem to remember the FTC issued a cease-and-desist order, a decade or two ago, to some cosmetics company that tried to dictate prices to retailers. Wheat is a indistinguishable commodity ( to most people -). Perfect commodity when discussing classic economics. Flyfishing tackle fits into a higher order of goods.
But my point is, if I can buy a Sage #xxxx rod from a dozen or more retailers, then those retailers are selling an "indistinguishable" product. I am as "indifferent" as to which seller I buy it from as the wheat buyers in Kansas are as to which farmer’s wheat they buy. The five basics are Greed, Sex, Ego, Vanity and Escape.
That’s one opinion. Every advertising textbook will provide you with a different list of so-called "appeals." Some lists are several times that long. The rest of what I deleted sounds pretty much like what I’ve posted here several times, so obviously I agree with it. vince norris
The classic example of the competitive market is that in which the "Kansas wheat farmer" sells his crop. That is in NO WAY similar to the market for high-end flyfishing tackle…..
That was actually a quote from me. It looks like your attribution nesting is a little screwed up, Vince. Well, it is similar on ONE way: As the previous poster said, the prices are the same from one seller to the next.
The crucial difference is that in one case (wheat) the price is set by the market. In the other case (tackle) the price is set by the manufacturer. High-end flyfishing tackle manufacturers dictate the prices that retailers can charge. It’s a captive market. I know nothing about law, but is that legal?
Yes, so far. But my point is, if I can buy a Sage #xxxx rod from a dozen or more retailers, then those retailers are selling an "indistinguishable" product. I am as "indifferent" as to which seller I buy it from as the wheat buyers in Kansas are as to which farmer’s wheat they buy.
Wheat futures fluctuate, depending on weather, anticipated demand, anticipated supply, etc. Tackle prices don’t fluctuate at all. They’re fixed. Suggesting that the market in wheat is comparable to the market in flyfishing tackle is just completely wrong.
Flyfishing tackle fits into a higher order of goods. Once you buy the things you need to satisfy the need for food, shelter and safety you are subjected to the five basic commodities of modern marketing. The five basics are Greed, Sex, Ego, Vanity and Escape. Lots of flyfishing tackle and paraphernalia fall into the ego and vanity category.
Ain’t that the truth, BJ? I’ll go for Escape, but Vanity and Ego are always lurking in the wings, ready to grab me and suck me under the vortex of total gear bankruptcy. Regarding Greed and Sex, I’ll leave those to the true gear whores. The more I flyfish, the more I find myself slipping into a kind of reverse gear snobbery. Why buy a fabulously expensive Winston 3wt when a Cabela’s Three Forks will do just fine? Why buy expensive floatant when Albolene is just as effective? Don’t get me started on fluorocarbon leaders.
Brand new to this group as a lurker or poster. I’m looking for a group where Golf equipment is discussed. In particular the Big Big Bang. Scanning through couple hundred posts here I didn’t see anything along the lines of equipment. Could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks, Jim
Brand new to this group as a lurker or poster. I’m looking for a group where Golf equipment is discussed. In particular the Big Big Bang. Scanning through couple hundred posts here I didn’t see anything along the lines of equipment. Could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks, Jim
Here’s a link, Jim, to "golf equipment aficionados", for one. http://login.prospero.com/dir-login/index.asp?webtag=golfequip&lgnDST… A%2F%2Fforums%2Edelphiforums%2Ecom%2Fn%2Fmain%2Easp%3Fwebtag%3Dgolfequip%26 n av%3Dmessages%26msg%3D49013%2E2
discussion of golf equipment is on topic here. (assuming you aren’t trying to sell it.) A couple of other forums you might find useful :- http://www.freegolfinfo.com/forum/ which has a forum on "general equipment discussion" and another on "clubmaking, repair & customisation". Or you could try :- http://www.glfdirect.com/bbs/ which is a bulletin board run by a website selling components but there tends to be a lot of useful info about oversized drivers including bang equipment. HTH Tony
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brand new to this group as a lurker or poster. I’m looking for a group where Golf equipment is discussed. In particular the Big Big Bang. Scanning through couple hundred posts here I didn’t see anything along the lines of equipment. Could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks, Jim
discussion of golf equipment is on topic here. (assuming you aren’t trying to sell it.)
Nope not going to try and sell anything. Just trying to upgrade my Driver to regain the 60 yards I’ve lost over the past 10 years. Fountain of Youth would be what I’m really looking for, but haven’t found any clubs with that name. I appreciate the links. Jim
Brand new to this group as a lurker or poster. I’m looking for a group where Golf equipment is discussed. In particular the Big Big Bang. Scanning through couple hundred posts here I didn’t see anything along the lines of equipment. Could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks, Jim
I don’t know if they have the review that you are looking for but try – http://www.golfclubreview.com/ http://www.golfjudge.com/ http://www.golfreview.com/ Oh here’s a site – http://www.golfreview.com/Drivers/Bang+Big+Bang+525/PRD_131768_2948cr… Or start from these good links pages – http://ttsoft.com/thor/golflinks.html http://www.golfbytes.com/links.html http://www.golflink.com/
Is this too far off topic?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rescently purchased a used electric golf cart. My question is how long are you supposed to charge it. For instance from being almost dead to using it for two hours. Thanks, Mike.
Modern chargers automatically shut off when the battery is charged.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this too far off topic? Rescently purchased a used electric golf cart. My question is how long are you supposed to charge it. For instance from being almost dead to using it for two hours. Thanks, Mike.
Is this too far off topic? Rescently purchased a used electric golf cart. My question is how long are you supposed to charge it. For instance from being almost dead to using it for two hours. Thanks, Mike.
IMO, no. It’s a question about golf equipment. The lack of responses may be due to the lack of people here who use and maintain an electric cart. I would try to contact the manufacturer of the charger to see what they recommend, as it would probably depend on the charging rate. Eliyahu
Hey, folks… surely one of us has an electric cart and can answer his question… Eliyahu
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this too far off topic? Rescently purchased a used electric golf cart. My question is how long are you supposed to charge it. For instance from being almost dead to using it for two hours. Thanks, Mike.
Answered twice with a) modern chargers shut themselves off and b) ask the manufacturer. PS: If he supplied make and model, the chances of getting an answer might increase as there are two types of electric carts – ride on and walk behind.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, folks… surely one of us has an electric cart and can answer his question… Eliyahu Is this too far off topic? Rescently purchased a used electric golf cart. My question is how long are you supposed to charge it. For instance from being almost dead to using it for two hours. Thanks, Mike.
Is this too far off topic? Rescently purchased a used electric golf cart. My question is how long are you supposed to charge it. For instance from being almost dead to using it for two hours. Thanks, Mike.
I also have a custom cart… I’d leave it charging over night if it’s really low or almost dead. Once it’s fully charged, if I am not going to be using it for a while, I unplug it until the night before using it. Although most chargers are auto shutoff, it’s just safer to unplug it. Make sure you check the water levels monthly at a min. G
My thanks to all of you who went out of your way to help me with my request to locate a replacement 8-iron. Due to that help, I have a bid in on a matching club on E-bay. While I find it quite a coincidence that a matching club from a little known manufacturer turned up on E-bay 3 days after I lost mine, I must attribute it to just that…a coincidence…that, and my good fortune. After all, the seller posts from MO, quite a distance from Central Ohio. Again…thank you all! Nelson
Viker 44
My thanks to all of you who went out of your way to help me with my request to locate a replacement 8-iron. Due to that help, I have a bid in on a matching club on E-bay. While I find it quite a coincidence that a matching club from a little known manufacturer turned up on E-bay 3 days after I lost mine, I must attribute it to just that…a coincidence…that, and my good fortune. After all, the seller posts from MO, quite a distance from Central Ohio. Again…thank you all! Nelson
Thought some of you would like to know the R&A’s position on COR. I got it in my monthly newsletter this afternoon from the R&A. The USGA’s position is clearly stated too. Pat Williams Revisions to accord on spring-like effect 6-Aug-02 14:02 (GMT) Further to the accord on golf equipment rules announced on May 9, 2002, The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews and the United States Golf Association have independently reviewed the proposal to regulate the "spring-like" effect of driving clubs. The two organisations had separately invited comments on the proposal from interested parties to be received by July 15, 2002. Many submissions were forthcoming and these have been carefully reviewed by the R&A and the USGA respectively. Overwhelmingly, the submissions welcomed the prospect of a return to worldwide uniformity on equipment rules, but felt that insufficient notice of the planned interim arrangements was being proposed. The absence of an immediately available simpler test to replace the current Coefficient of Restitution (COR) test also caused concern. In light of these comments, the R&A has decided not to proceed with the proposal announced on May 9, 2002 and, in particular, not to introduce an interim COR limit of 0.860. Instead, the R&A intends to proceed as follows in its area of rules jurisdiction: 1. For most competitions and all recreational play, there will continue to be no "spring-like" effect test or COR limit until January 1, 2008. 2. From January 1, 2003 until December 31, 2007, the committee in charge of a competition restricted to highly skilled players may decide to introduce a Condition of Competition limiting COR to 0.830. The R&A will introduce this Condition of Competition at the Open Championship in 2003 and beyond and will recommend its introduction for all events on the major professional tours. 3. From January 1, 2008, the Rules of Golf will be changed to include a conformance test with a COR limit of 0.830 (or the equivalent – see 4 below). 4. Initially the test method to be used will be the same COR test as currently employed by the USGA. However, work on the development of a new, simpler test to replace the current COR test will continue. In the United States, many additional comments were received. The proposed relaxation of the existing COR limit to be followed five years later by its reinstatement was widely criticised as confusing and unnecessary. Having regard to these views, the USGA has also decided not to introduce an interim COR limit of 0.860, but instead will retain its current rule on "spring-like" effect limiting COR to 0.830. It will also continue with the collaborative work in developing a new test method. The R&A appreciates the special difficulties which would arise in the United States if the original proposal were adopted and feels that the best interests of the game will be served by the most orderly possible return to worldwide uniformity of equipment rules. Both organisations believe that the actions described above will achieve this, will allow sufficient time to finalise a simpler test procedure and will minimise disruption to golfers and to equipment manufacturers. The R&A and the USGA remain committed to the Joint Statement of Principles which was also announced on May 9, 2002. — Pat Williams
How about starting another Crazy 8’s pool? Choose the first 8 driver manufacturers that will sue the USGA. Tiebreaker is picking the first to sue. {My pick for the tiebreaker is Taylormade.} P. S. Send all submissions to the USGA legal department. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thought some of you would like to know the R&A’s position on COR. I got it in my monthly newsletter this afternoon from the &A. The USGA’s position is clearly stated too.
How about starting another Crazy 8’s pool? Choose the first 8 driver manufacturers that will sue the USGA. Tiebreaker is picking the first to sue. {My pick for the tiebreaker is Taylormade.}
Under what grounds?
I don’t know what to think of PK’s new endeavor. For my money, Peter Kessler will always be the "Golf Channel" and vice-versa. Nobody on staff can come close to hosting an hour of Academy Live!
What, you don’t find Rich Lerner a perfect replacement for Kessler ?<g I hardly watch TGC since Peter left. The rest of the staff does not do it for me. I have heard that Peter Jacobsen’s new show is worthwhile, but Academy Live is a ghost of its former self. — CA Remove NoSpam to email me directly. Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge.
This thread is straying from the intended subject. I wanted to know if anyone had any experience with the utility club that our old pal Peter Kessler is now hustling on TV. Has anyone purchased the "Perfect Club"? If so, would you suggest that others follow suit at approx. $160? TIA, John Rosebery
I haven’t seen the Ad but i always enjoyed Peter on the Golf Channel. It is a shame that this is where his career has led to.
Don’t feel too sorry for Peter, Eric. Trust me on this one, as this is my area of expertise. The talent fees and 13-week residual checks that keep coming in for doing commercials are quite nice. Peter isn’t starving. Of that you can be sure. In fact, off-camera (voiceover) work (which is what I do) can pay quite well, if you happen to get lucky enough to latch on to a national account that runs on national media for an extended period of time. Many years ago, a dear friend of mine moved to L.A. (he is now one of the top five voiceover guys in LA-LA Land). In his first year out there, he met a gentleman named Mike Bell. Now, you don’t know Mike Bell by name, but you’ve heard his voice a million times. He’s the guy who said, "butter" in the Parkay Margarine TV commercials (as if the tub of margarine was talking) whenever they lifted the plastic lid of a Parkay Margarine tub. Then at the end of the spot, he says, "Parkayyy!!!." Well, Mr. Bell’s voice had been running on those commercials for quite a few years when my friend met him, and my friend learned that for doing just that one little hour-long voiceover session several years earlier (from which various takes of his lines had been lifted and used in dozens of commercials over the years), Mr. Bell had received several dozen residual checks, totalling over a half-million dollars, thankyouverymuch. Oh, for just ONE of those accounts…….what I would give….. Mr. Kessler’s talent fees are, I’m sure, above the AFTRA minimum, as he has a very competent agent. And since his work is on-camera (which pays more than off-camera voiceover work), he won’t be skipping any meals to make ends meet. Now, if only that spot would just run for, oh, say a dozen years or so, then he’d really be rakin’ in the dough from it. But alas, golf equipment rarely has such a long shelf life. Not like marketing margarine, which can run essentially the same message for years. Randy
Excusse meeee! I just want to know if PK looks as much like a hustler to everyone else as he did to me?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This thread is straying from the intended subject. I wanted to know if anyone had any experience with the utility club that our old pal Peter Kessler is now hustling on TV. Has anyone purchased the "Perfect Club"? If so, would you suggest that others follow suit at approx. $160? TIA, John Rosebery
Excusse meeee! I just want to know if PK looks as much like a hustler to everyone else as he did to me? This thread is straying from the intended subject. I wanted to know if anyone had any experience with the utility club that our old pal Peter Kessler is now hustling on TV. Has anyone purchased the "Perfect Club"? If so, would you suggest that others follow suit at approx. $160? TIA, John Rosebery
Furthermore, I wonder why people are triggered into such cynicism by ANYthing "commercial." I read once where a list taking at least two pages of fine print made the point that we own NOTHING that we didn’t see marketed or advertised in some way. We have not a single item in our lives for which someone didn’t spend money to bring it to your eye, by one or more of the following: 1) having a store place for you to view it 2) having someone tell you about it 3) seeing it advertised in a mag, on TV, on the radio, or by junk mail, email, or banner In a word – BY MARKETING IT TO YOUR ATTENTION. And that just plain costs money. Do you resent people having stores, being salesmen, making products, in order to make a living? Or do you imagine a world in which "everyone works for the government in public service" and somehow all these other things just fall from heaven? Storekeeping, selling, manufacturing and telling people about stuff (my computer is something I want very badly, and I was told about it in many different ways. Do I consider it "crass commercial interests" that led me – manipulated me — into "giving money to those greedy bastards at HP" for me to obtain my computer? I guess my take on "commercialism" and "greed" are different than those who are offended or cynically affected by every effort of someone to tell you about something good. I won’t buy the Perfect Club because I have suitable stuff now. But I can surely relate to its value. And I can believe that you don’t have to be a charlatan to promote it. GH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Excusse meeee! I just want to know if PK looks as much like a hustler to everyone else as he did to me? This thread is straying from the intended subject. I wanted to know if anyone had any experience with the utility club that our old pal Peter Kessler is now hustling on TV. Has anyone purchased the "Perfect Club"? If so, would you suggest that others follow suit at approx. $160? TIA, John Rosebery
He did NOT look like such to me. I believe in his integrity on the things he said and how he conducted himself. I have no issue with a single claim he made. We pay $500 for drivers. His club PLUS AN INSTRUCTION VIDEO cost $140 or something in that neighborhood. GH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
This thread is straying from the intended subject. I wanted to know if anyone had any experience with the utility club that our old pal Peter Kessler is now hustling on TV. Has anyone purchased the "Perfect Club"? If so, would you suggest that others follow suit at approx. $160? TIA, John Rosebery
Yes – and it’s PERFECT!
I don’t know what to think of PK’s new endeavor. For my money, Peter Kessler will always be the "Golf Channel" and vice-versa. Nobody on staff can come close to hosting an hour of Academy Live! I have such faith in Peter that I almost want to order one of his Perfect Clubs – my head tells me, however, that $159 is pretty high for a collection of $50 worth of components (max!). Perhaps someone already owns the club and can give us a review. John R.
What do you think of PK’s ad for the Perfect Club?
I haven’t seen the Ad but i always enjoyed Peter on the Golf Channel. It is a shame that this is where his career has led to. Eric
Based on a GolfLife profile on Peter in the July/August issue of T & L Golf, Mark McCormack of IMG went to Peter asking to plan his future. I don’t think this ad will the last you will see of him! Larry
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you think of PK’s ad for the Perfect Club? I haven’t seen the Ad but i always enjoyed Peter on the Golf Channel. It is a shame that this is where his career has led to. Eric
What do you think of PK’s ad for the Perfect Club?
What do you think of PK’s ad for the Perfect Club?
Waste of $$$ -Mother T-
Anytime you’re playing golf and making five figures while doing it, it’s going to be tough to wipe that smile off your face! If I made a hole in one for 10 grand, I’d certainly have to wipe something… Wayne
LOL!!!!
Congrats… We have a $1 Million prize for an ace at one of local tournaments. The 6 closest to the pin shots get to participate. It’s the #6, over the water par 3 at Hartfeld National, and they make ya tee it up from the back tees. I also figure if I would ever get an ace, I’d like it to be for the cool million. RJ … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? Thanks, John
On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it?
No kidding. Congrats!! That is one wicked story.
On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it?
Congratulations!
There are plenty of tournaments that aren’t sanctioned by the USGA in my area. I actually rairly play in USGA evens any more. I used to when I played with the Junior tour. The last tournament that was USGA sanctioned for me was the 1995 US Open regionals. At that pointed I had a handicap index of 1.2 and figured I would give it a shot. Happy Golfing, John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped Still sounds to me like you just turned pro! Rob Nope, he’s just not an amateur anymore. Just because the USGA says he’s not an amateur anymore doesn’t make him a pro. The professional associations have their own qualifying criteria and I suspect he doesn’t qualify. Certainly he won’t unless he actually joins a professional association. Right now he’s in a grey area between amateur and a pro. John, if you are interested in playing for prize money, beyond what the USGA allows, there are actual handicapped professional golf tours and if you joined you would be a real, bona fide professional golfer. I believe Pepsi sponsors one in California called the Pepsi Challenge Tour. Depending on the tour, event and sponsorships, entry fees can be cheap or outrageous, with corresponding prize funds. I doubt anyone could make a living at if, if they were that good they would be able to move up. But if you enjoy playing for a real prize check, it is something to consider. If that doesn’t interest you, you can wait for a couple of years and petition the USGA to regain your amateur status. In cases like yours the petition is almost always granted, so long as you didn’t do anything else that would violate amateur standing, like applying for or playing on a professional tour. Check the USGA website for more the rules on Amateur Status: http://www.usga.org/rules/index.html — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
There are plenty of tournaments that aren’t sanctioned by the USGA in my area. I actually rairly play in USGA evens any more. I used to when I played with the Junior tour. The last tournament that was USGA sanctioned for me was the 1995 US Open regionals. At that pointed I had a handicap index of 1.2 and figured I would give it a shot. Happy Golfing, John
The key is "USGA sanctioned", which is a lot more tournaments than just those that are directly sponsored by the USGA. I’m assuming that you belong to a club, which in turn is part of a regional association. In which case, if your club attempts to qualify a team for the regional association’s Best Ball tournament you would not be eligible, because that is a USGA sanction event. In fact, any tournament sponsored by your regional association will sanctioned by the USGA. The same is true of any inter-club competitions. So while you would probably still be eligible for events within your own club ( I think that is up to the club), you would be ineligible for any that are qualifiers for regional tournaments or include other clubs. If you don’t play in any of these, then it’s no big deal and you will probably never even notice the change in your status. But I know some guys who are really into the regional team events and they would rather pass on $10K than risk their eligibility. Me, I’m poor, SHOW ME THE MONEY! 
BTW, if you haven’t notified your club of your winnings yet, you should do so soon, so that they can notify the regional association. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
Anytime you’re playing golf and making five figures while doing it, it’s going to be tough to wipe that smile off your face!
If I made a hole in one for 10 grand, I’d certainly have to wipe something… Wayne — "So It’s oppositeland! Crooks chase cops! Cats have puppies!"… Homer Simpson —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? Thanks, John
Way to go!!!!! Enjoy the bread. Kenny — Kenny Stultz Troll and Spam Intollerant RSG Rollcall: http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=stultzk
Sorry, The exception got me. The rules are not easily breezed through and understood. It appears you are correct. That’s alright, I’m still enjoying the cash.
John, in the interest of helping you preserve your amateur status, and being able to compete in tournaments where the top prize you can accept is $500.00, I, in a burst of compassionate humanity and largesse previously not seen in this here newsgroup hereby offer openly and without qualification to take care of $9500.00 of that prize for you. I will give it a good home, I assure you, and will only spend it on golf equipment of one sort or another. And you, while cherishing your untrammelled amateur status, will have the assurance that your prize has found itself a worthy and honorable home. Kindly send it in small bills. Don’t wanna alert the taxman. Sincerely, Peter Strauss Benefactor to all and sundry Do-er of good etc., etc.
John. Please describe for us what the sentance: "The limit prescribed in Rule 3-2a applies to a prize for a hole-in-one." means. 3-2a states clearly that the prize cannot exceed $500.00. Says to me you could get $500.00 for winning an event and $500.00 for a hole in one, and that’s OK, even though you pocket $1K. Doesn’t allow for $10K though. Still sounds to me like you just turned pro!
Always nice to have more pros in r.s.g. -joseph
<snipped Still sounds to me like you just turned pro! Rob
Nope, he’s just not an amateur anymore. Just because the USGA says he’s not an amateur anymore doesn’t make him a pro. The professional associations have their own qualifying criteria and I suspect he doesn’t qualify. Certainly he won’t unless he actually joins a professional association. Right now he’s in a grey area between amateur and a pro. John, if you are interested in playing for prize money, beyond what the USGA allows, there are actual handicapped professional golf tours and if you joined you would be a real, bona fide professional golfer. I believe Pepsi sponsors one in California called the Pepsi Challenge Tour. Depending on the tour, event and sponsorships, entry fees can be cheap or outrageous, with corresponding prize funds. I doubt anyone could make a living at if, if they were that good they would be able to move up. But if you enjoy playing for a real prize check, it is something to consider. If that doesn’t interest you, you can wait for a couple of years and petition the USGA to regain your amateur status. In cases like yours the petition is almost always granted, so long as you didn’t do anything else that would violate amateur standing, like applying for or playing on a professional tour. Check the USGA website for more the rules on Amateur Status: http://www.usga.org/rules/index.html — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
I’ve already planned on putting 4k away for taxes. I’ve heard of a lot of people getting in trouble because of not planning. It is still 6k of fun money. John. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? I’ll say! Remember what it’s going to cost you in taxes before you blow the hole wad buying drinks for everyone in the tournament. :-) My co-worker’s brother won a $28K car once with a hole-in-one, the same tournament that he and his partner won the top prize in a Calcutta (they’d bet on themselves). He took home some $35K in prizes for three days’ play. Anytime you’re playing golf and making five figures while doing it, it’s going to be tough to wipe that smile off your face! Congratulations, Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)
Sorry, The exception got me. The rules are not easily breezed through and understood. It appears you are correct. That’s alright, I’m still enjoying the cash. Thanks, John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John. Please describe for us what the sentance: "The limit prescribed in Rule 3-2a applies to a prize for a hole-in-one." means. 3-2a states clearly that the prize cannot exceed $500.00. Says to me you could get $500.00 for winning an event and $500.00 for a hole in one, and that’s OK, even though you pocket $1K. Doesn’t allow for $10K though. Still sounds to me like you just turned pro! Rob "Hole in One" is an exemption for an Amateur according to the USGA rules. I am allowed to accept the prize and remain an amateur and play in USGA events. Sorry, but you are incorrect. John Here is section 3-2 An amateur golfer must not: a. Accept a prize (including all prizes received in any one tournament or exhibition for any event, or series of events, in which golf skill is a factor) of a retail value greater than $500 (except for symbolic prizes); Exception: Hole-In-One Prizes The limit prescribed in Rule 3-2a applies to a prize for a hole-in-one. However, such a prize may be accepted in addition to any other prize won in the same competition. b. Accept a prize of money or the equivalent of money; c. Convert a prize into money; d. Accept expenses in any amount to a golf competition (except as provided in Rule 4); or e. Because of golf skill or reputation, accept in connection with any golfing event: (i) money, or (ii) anything else, other than merchandise of nominal value provided to all players. There goes your amateur status. Now you can’t play in USGA events, except the Opens. Rob On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? Thanks, John — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html ) — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it?
I’ll say! Remember what it’s going to cost you in taxes before you blow the hole wad buying drinks for everyone in the tournament. :-) My co-worker’s brother won a $28K car once with a hole-in-one, the same tournament that he and his partner won the top prize in a Calcutta (they’d bet on themselves). He took home some $35K in prizes for three days’ play. Anytime you’re playing golf and making five figures while doing it, it’s going to be tough to wipe that smile off your face! Congratulations, Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)
I had guys not even in the tournament trying to get a free beer. Suddenly I was the most popular guy on the course.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John, did you have any cash left after buying all the other contestants, onlookers, and event staff a round? — Ron Blanchard http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=blanchardr I took the RSG 2002 Pledge to not encourage trolls "Make Golf Difficult Again." - Ian MacCallister On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? Thanks, John
John, did you have any cash left after buying all the other contestants, onlookers, and event staff a round? — Ron Blanchard http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=blanchardr I took the RSG 2002 Pledge to not encourage trolls "Make Golf Difficult Again." - Ian MacCallister
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? Thanks, John
John. Please describe for us what the sentance: "The limit prescribed in Rule 3-2a applies to a prize for a hole-in-one." means. 3-2a states clearly that the prize cannot exceed $500.00. Says to me you could get $500.00 for winning an event and $500.00 for a hole in one, and that’s OK, even though you pocket $1K. Doesn’t allow for $10K though. Still sounds to me like you just turned pro! Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Hole in One" is an exemption for an Amateur according to the USGA rules. I am allowed to accept the prize and remain an amateur and play in USGA events. Sorry, but you are incorrect. John Here is section 3-2 An amateur golfer must not: a. Accept a prize (including all prizes received in any one tournament or exhibition for any event, or series of events, in which golf skill is a factor) of a retail value greater than $500 (except for symbolic prizes); Exception: Hole-In-One Prizes The limit prescribed in Rule 3-2a applies to a prize for a hole-in-one. However, such a prize may be accepted in addition to any other prize won in the same competition. b. Accept a prize of money or the equivalent of money; c. Convert a prize into money; d. Accept expenses in any amount to a golf competition (except as provided in Rule 4); or e. Because of golf skill or reputation, accept in connection with any golfing event: (i) money, or (ii) anything else, other than merchandise of nominal value provided to all players. There goes your amateur status. Now you can’t play in USGA events, except the Opens. Rob On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? Thanks, John — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
– Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
"Hole in One" is an exemption for an Amateur according to the USGA rules. I am allowed to accept the prize and remain an amateur and play in USGA events. Sorry, but you are incorrect. John Here is section 3-2 An amateur golfer must not: a. Accept a prize (including all prizes received in any one tournament or exhibition for any event, or series of events, in which golf skill is a factor) of a retail value greater than $500 (except for symbolic prizes); Exception: Hole-In-One Prizes The limit prescribed in Rule 3-2a applies to a prize for a hole-in-one. However, such a prize may be accepted in addition to any other prize won in the same competition. b. Accept a prize of money or the equivalent of money; c. Convert a prize into money; d. Accept expenses in any amount to a golf competition (except as provided in Rule 4); or e. Because of golf skill or reputation, accept in connection with any golfing event: (i) money, or (ii) anything else, other than merchandise of nominal value provided to all players.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There goes your amateur status. Now you can’t play in USGA events, except the Opens. Rob On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? Thanks, John — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
There goes your amateur status. Now you can’t play in USGA events, except the Opens. Rob On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? Thanks, John
– Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
Cool! Congrats! Wayne — "So It’s oppositeland! Crooks chase cops! Cats have puppies!"… Homer Simpson
On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? Thanks, John
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On Saturday I sunk a 4-iron from 175 yards into a stiff breeze for the grand hole in one prize of $10,000. I’ve played a lot of golf and this was my first one. What a good time to do it? Thanks, John
If you asked either if they would rather have a .11 lower stroke avg or endorsment money, I would be shocked if either said the endorsment. Of course if you have one week where you shoot the lights out and win, then go back to average play it will skew the results. None of the stats are very important except the money list anyway.
True, although most of the PGA players will tell you they make an awful lot of their money doing things beside winning paychecks. If you were a PGA pro, wouldn’t you give up .11 strokes on your average if you got a 10 million dollar per year contract out of it? Financially, I probably would (unless maybe if I were in the top 10 or something.) Morally, I might not, depending on what it was for.
True, although most of the PGA players will tell you they make an awful lot of their money doing things beside winning paychecks. If you were a PGA pro, wouldn’t you give up .11 strokes on your average if you got a 10 million dollar per year contract out of it? Financially, I probably would (unless maybe if I were in the top 10 or something.) Morally, I might not, depending on what it was for.
We have the following types of players: 1. Young unknowns who can’t get this type of endorsement money – until they improve their game. 2. Big name stars who can get this type of contract – but are already quite comfortable and want to win more. 3. Big name has-bens who are waiting for the senior tour. You may have an argument for player #3 selling out – but the others want the wins.
Believe me, there are guys struggling to make a living on the BUY.COM Tour. Someone making $48,000 is not taking home half that, and I think those that are making a lot less would jump at the chance to make $100,000 in endorsements (random figure) even if it cut his winnings in half. (Not the he *could* get that much, but this is all hypothetical.) Someone down that low might figure he has virtually no chance of making the top 15 this year anyway to make it to the PGA. I think it’s a harder decision than some of you all think!
But the problem here is that you make the endorsement bucks by having low scores! The only way you get this offer at all is if you have a name. Someone on the downside of his career who really needed the money might be tempted – on the upside without a name, the endorsement is tiny – and you expect to improve to be really valuable.
Bottom line: it’s a question the pros don’t ponder. Only RSG’ers. Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "jeffnc" wrote … The question basically is: would touring professionals accept payment to use equipment or accessories if it ultimately resulted in a higher score, and if so, what is the proportion of money to strokes? The way you have phrased this question makes it somewhat of a trick question, like "Have you stopped beating your wife?" The obvious answer to your question is, "Yes, many TOUR players *have*, in fact, accepted payment to use equipment … that ultimately resulted in a higher score." The interesting part of the question is, once a player has decided that his score might be higher, how much would it take to get him to use it? This is especially significant for players who don’t win. Personally, if I shot a tournament score that was 2 strokes higher, but got paid $50,000 to do so, then I’d have to consider it financially feasible, if morally questionable. But I can assure you that no player has ever accepted money to play a certain line of equipment if he knew it was going to limit his ability to win or score low. I don’t see why – if he calculated he had more money to make that way. If you asked the question that way, I would offer a resounding "no" as the answer. No professional would ever intentionally compromise or sacrifice his potential for winning just to accept guaranteed money. The endorsement guarantees aren’t nearly enough to draw a player away from the financial promised land offered to the highest finishers at each week’s event. My question was specifically "What would the dollar amount of endorsement have to be per stroke lost per tournament?" It would have to be higher on the PGA Tour than BUY.COM Tour, of course. But for a guy who knows he’s not going to finish higher than, maybe, 100th on the money list, it might make sense to enter into such an agreement. It is, after all, his source of income. It’s his job. Exactly.
It depends. If you thought this was your chance to graduate to the PGA tour – would you give up 5 strokes for money?
It would depend if I already had enough money to cover my expenses without taking sponsor money. I’ve watched many interivews on players struggling on the buy.com tour, wishing for a sponsor, otherwise they will be working at the local golf club soon. Sponsors are not plentyful. I don’t think any player would consciously pick equipment that he feels is going to cost him, unless he’s run out of financial support and has to make a choice. I think most players believe it’s the indian not the arrow…so they’d try new products for dollars, believing they would be the difference. Pavin and others are great examples. He moved PRGR for a lucrative contract and lost his game, claiming it was the technology, PStuart did the same. Remember those funny sandals Paul Stankowski wore for awhile, got teased quit a bit…LOL. You think he liked them, or he was paid to wear them??? G
Yes, but pros also include non-winners. For example, number 120 on the money list, or BUY.COM players struggling to make a living. Well, #120 on the PGA list this week is Miguel Jiminez at $213,000, and the #20 player on the Buy.Com tour has earned $48,000. Not bad money for 5 months.
Believe me, there are guys struggling to make a living on the BUY.COM Tour. Someone making $48,000 is not taking home half that, and I think those that are making a lot less would jump at the chance to make $100,000 in endorsements (random figure) even if it cut his winnings in half. (Not the he *could* get that much, but this is all hypothetical.) Someone down that low might figure he has virtually no chance of making the top 15 this year anyway to make it to the PGA. I think it’s a harder decision than some of you all think!
My question was specifically "What would the dollar amount of endorsement have to be per stroke lost per tournament?" It would have to be higher on the PGA Tour than BUY.COM Tour, of course. It depends. If you thought this was your chance to graduate to the PGA tour – would you give up 5 strokes for money?
Depends on how much
looking at this 2001’s stats, tiger is first with 68.81 and at 194 is Rocky Walcherat 73.54. So losing or gaining even a quarter of a stroke average is going to have a drastic effect on your income. So 5 strokes will make you better than tiger if you are already within the top 175!
Not a valid conclusion. Pat Bates has a stroke average of 71.43 after 42 rounds played. Joe Durant has a stroke average of 71.54 after 42 rounds played. Pat Bates has won $157,643. Joe Durant has won $218,064. According to your logic, if Joe Durant averaged .11 strokes LOWER, it would have cost him about $60,000! If he were to earn $100,000 from a sponsor to play golf clubs that cost him a whole stroke per round, why he’d make the endorsement money PLUS $600,000! It’s not easy to figure out how much a stroke is worth, nor is it very easy to determine how many strokes a particular change will gain or lose.
The question basically is: would touring professionals accept payment to use equipment or accessories if it ultimately resulted in a higher score, and if so, what is the proportion of money to strokes? For example, if a pro averaged 71.0 strokes while using his favorite shoes, and was paid to wear golf sandals, and that resulted in a stroke average of 71.1, how much money would it take for the pro to wear the sandals? There are infinitely more examples obviously. The number of strokes would normally be impossible to quantify, so the golfer would usually have to guess.
Another way to look at the question is – How much is a stroke worth to a golf pro?
The cost/benefit of winning is much better than the cost/benefit that a non-winner can get sponsoring that we don’t even have to move on to self-image and honesty. Yes, but pros also include non-winners. For example, number 120 on the money list, or BUY.COM players struggling to make a living.
Well, #120 on the PGA list this week is Miguel Jiminez at $213,000, and the #20 player on the Buy.Com tour has earned $48,000. Not bad money for 5 months.
My question was specifically "What would the dollar amount of endorsement have to be per stroke lost per tournament?" It would have to be higher on the PGA Tour than BUY.COM Tour, of course.
It depends. If you thought this was your chance to graduate to the PGA tour – would you give up 5 strokes for money?
The cost/benefit of winning is much better than the cost/benefit that a non-winner can get sponsoring that we don’t even have to move on to self-image and honesty. Yes, but pros also include non-winners. For example, number 120 on the money list, or BUY.COM players struggling to make a living.
They’re on the cusp of having to quit the tour altogether. Unless they already have a name and recognize that they are in a rapid decline – they won’t risk their career. They believe that if they just get 5 strokes better they will be contenders – and if they get 5 strokes worse they will be selling washing machines. So how much do they need to be bribed to play 5 strokes worse?
The cost/benefit of winning is much better than the cost/benefit that a non-winner can get sponsoring that we don’t even have to move on to self-image and honesty.
Yes, but pros also include non-winners. For example, number 120 on the money list, or BUY.COM players struggling to make a living.
"jeffnc" wrote … The question basically is: would touring professionals accept payment to use equipment or accessories if it ultimately resulted in a higher score, and if so, what is the proportion of money to strokes? The way you have phrased this question makes it somewhat of a trick question, like "Have you stopped beating your wife?" The obvious answer to your question is, "Yes, many TOUR players *have*, in fact, accepted payment to use equipment … that ultimately resulted in a higher score."
The interesting part of the question is, once a player has decided that his score might be higher, how much would it take to get him to use it? This is especially significant for players who don’t win. Personally, if I shot a tournament score that was 2 strokes higher, but got paid $50,000 to do so, then I’d have to consider it financially feasible, if morally questionable. But I can assure you that no player has ever accepted money to play a certain line of equipment if he knew it was going to limit his ability to win or score low.
I don’t see why – if he calculated he had more money to make that way. If you asked the question that way, I would offer a resounding "no" as the answer. No professional would ever intentionally compromise or sacrifice his potential for winning just to accept guaranteed money. The endorsement guarantees aren’t nearly enough to draw a player away from the financial promised land offered to the highest finishers at each week’s event.
My question was specifically "What would the dollar amount of endorsement have to be per stroke lost per tournament?" It would have to be higher on the PGA Tour than BUY.COM Tour, of course. But for a guy who knows he’s not going to finish higher than, maybe, 100th on the money list, it might make sense to enter into such an agreement. It is, after all, his source of income. It’s his job.
Exactly.
What about Corey Pavin and Payne Stewart? Both were at the top of their game when they signed new endorsements. Pavin signed a new club deal (Cleveland VAS??) after his US Open win at Shinnecock and that seemed to be the beginning of the end for him. Stewart signed up to play Top Flite irons after he won in ‘91 at Hazeltine, and his game went south for a few seasons.
I bet you they thought their games wouldn’t suffer. And we don’t know why their games tanked – it may have been coincidence. The danger of making a contract is that you might discover later that your game is suffering – but I doubt very much if any PGA pros think ahead of time that their games will be hurt by a contract they sign.
Your thesis with regards to the top pros is flawed as they are very conservative and slow to change equipment
No offense, but this is a rather presumptuous response. I asked a question. How is that a thesis?
The question basically is: would touring professionals accept payment to use equipment or accessories if it ultimately resulted in a higher score, and if so, what is the proportion of money to strokes? For example, if a pro averaged 71.0 strokes while using his favorite shoes, and was paid to wear golf sandals, and that resulted in a stroke average of 71.1, how much money would it take for the pro to wear the sandals? There are infinitely more examples obviously. The number of strokes would normally be impossible to quantify, so the golfer would usually have to guess.
You might want to take a look at this <http://www.golfweb.com/u/ce/multi/0,1977,4911690,00.html article. — Cheers- Jeff Setaro http://home.sprynet.com/~jasetaro/ PGP Key IDs DH/DSS: 0×5D41429D RSA: 0×599D2A99
"jeffnc" wrote … The question basically is: would touring professionals accept payment to use equipment or accessories if it ultimately resulted in a higher score, and if so, what is the proportion of money to strokes?
The way you have phrased this question makes it somewhat of a trick question, like "Have you stopped beating your wife?" The obvious answer to your question is, "Yes, many TOUR players *have*, in fact, accepted payment to use equipment … that ultimately resulted in a higher score." But I can assure you that no player has ever accepted money to play a certain line of equipment if he knew it was going to limit his ability to win or score low. A better way of phrasing your question (and I suspect a more accurate expression of what you’re wondering) is this: "Would touring professionals intentionally compromise a degree of their ability to post low scores by playing a certain brand of equipment in return for guaranteeing a percentage of their income through endorsement deals. And if they would do so, what might their trade-off threshold be?" If you asked the question that way, I would offer a resounding "no" as the answer. No professional would ever intentionally compromise or sacrifice his potential for winning just to accept guaranteed money. The endorsement guarantees aren’t nearly enough to draw a player away from the financial promised land offered to the highest finishers at each week’s event. That said, there are many examples over the years of pros switching their equipment, changing companies with which they have an endorsement arrangement, whose performance subsequently slipped. In some cases, you might even get some of those players to admit (privately) that the clubs were the result. But rest assured, if they knew when they entered into the agreement that their play would be so negatively affected by using the new equipment, they never would have agreed to play it. I promise you this: in each instance, they’ve entered into these endorsement agreements BELIEVING (whether or not they were proven correct) that they could play as well or better with the new equipment. I’ve concluded over the years that the reason is that they’re so talented, they think they can play with pretty much anything. Unfortunately, in some cases, they make the change and discover, much to their horror, that maybe the match between their swing and that previous set of clubs they were using had a lot to do with their success. They think it’s all them, and indeed they’re very talented. But as we all know, sometimes you just get a magic combination of player and equipment, and the total is sometimes greater than the sum of its parts. I cannot think of very many golf equipment endorsement deals that offer sufficient compensation packages to offset the potential up side of winning on the PGA TOUR, where one week’s winner’s share is in the area of a half-million to a million dollars. So it’s hard to imagine a player who believes he has a bonafide chance of winning entering into a deal knowing that it would compromise his potential to contend. But for a guy who knows he’s not going to finish higher than, maybe, 100th on the money list, it might make sense to enter into such an agreement. It is, after all, his source of income. It’s his job. Jack Nicklaus said it best when he was asked about it two weeks ago at The Memorial. He said there are (and were when he was playing, too) only a handful of players who play golf for the sake of playing golf. These are the players who are typically financially set, so they’re free to go simply for the thrill of achievement. They thrive on the competition. Those are your elite players. Then there are the players who don’t so much play golf for playing golf, but rather they play golf FOR A LIVING. And a darn fine living it is, as long as you can stay out there (which means either winning or staying within the top 125 — in either case, that translates into a pretty nice level of earnings). For those who are out there strictly to earn a living, and who know they’re not likely to ever become an elite player, entering into such deals might make sense if it pays for the mortgage, or the kid’s college, or a new car for the Mrs. Whatever. It’s business. But would a player who’s out there for the expressed purpose of winning ever intentionally compromise his ability to do so just to guarantee that a portion of his income would remain fixed? Randy
I remember Stewart saying that he had a hard time controlling the trajectory of the Top Flite irons (I think he switched from blades to cavity backs). He was hitting the ball too high and couldn’t deal with windy conditions because of this. You’d think he would have figured this out before he signed on the dotted line, but who knows. — John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – True, but these samples only prove pros are human. The original thesis is proved only if you can establish that Pavin and Stewart took the money before trying the new equipment. What about Corey Pavin and Payne Stewart? Both were at the top of their game when they signed new endorsements. Pavin signed a new club deal (Cleveland VAS??) after his US Open win at Shinnecock and that seemed to be the beginning of the end for him. Stewart signed up to play Top Flite irons after he won in ‘91 at Hazeltine, and his game went south for a few seasons. — John Your thesis with regards to the top pros is flawed as they are very conservative and slow to change equipment, i.e.. Tiger playing Mizumo’s stamped Titleist. Some of the lesser guys especially on the downside of their career with children to send to college can be "bought" but there is no way you can quantify improvement or lack there of. Given the player is "comfortable" with a set of equipment, wind and weather have to be bigger factors than the equipment change. PS: Every try golf sandals in fire ant country? The question basically is: would touring professionals accept payment to use equipment or accessories if it ultimately resulted in a higher score, and if so, what is the proportion of money to strokes? For example, if a pro averaged 71.0 strokes while using his favorite shoes, and was paid to wear golf sandals, and that resulted in a stroke average of 71.1, how much money would it take for the pro to wear the sandals? There are infinitely more examples obviously. The number of strokes would normally be impossible to quantify, so the golfer would usually have to guess.
True, but these samples only prove pros are human. The original thesis is proved only if you can establish that Pavin and Stewart took the money before trying the new equipment.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What about Corey Pavin and Payne Stewart? Both were at the top of their game when they signed new endorsements. Pavin signed a new club deal (Cleveland VAS??) after his US Open win at Shinnecock and that seemed to be the beginning of the end for him. Stewart signed up to play Top Flite irons after he won in ‘91 at Hazeltine, and his game went south for a few seasons. — John Your thesis with regards to the top pros is flawed as they are very conservative and slow to change equipment, i.e.. Tiger playing Mizumo’s stamped Titleist. Some of the lesser guys especially on the downside of their career with children to send to college can be "bought" but there is no way you can quantify improvement or lack there of. Given the player is "comfortable" with a set of equipment, wind and weather have to be bigger factors than the equipment change. PS: Every try golf sandals in fire ant country? The question basically is: would touring professionals accept payment to use equipment or accessories if it ultimately resulted in a higher score, and if so, what is the proportion of money to strokes? For example, if a pro averaged 71.0 strokes while using his favorite shoes, and was paid to wear golf sandals, and that resulted in a stroke average of 71.1, how much money would it take for the pro to wear the sandals? There are infinitely more examples obviously. The number of strokes would normally be impossible to quantify, so the golfer would usually have to guess.
What about Corey Pavin and Payne Stewart? Both were at the top of their game when they signed new endorsements. Pavin signed a new club deal (Cleveland VAS??) after his US Open win at Shinnecock and that seemed to be the beginning of the end for him. Stewart signed up to play Top Flite irons after he won in ‘91 at Hazeltine, and his game went south for a few seasons. — John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your thesis with regards to the top pros is flawed as they are very conservative and slow to change equipment, i.e.. Tiger playing Mizumo’s stamped Titleist. Some of the lesser guys especially on the downside of their career with children to send to college can be "bought" but there is no way you can quantify improvement or lack there of. Given the player is "comfortable" with a set of equipment, wind and weather have to be bigger factors than the equipment change. PS: Every try golf sandals in fire ant country? The question basically is: would touring professionals accept payment to use equipment or accessories if it ultimately resulted in a higher score, and if so, what is the proportion of money to strokes? For example, if a pro averaged 71.0 strokes while using his favorite shoes, and was paid to wear golf sandals, and that resulted in a stroke average of 71.1, how much money would it take for the pro to wear the sandals? There are infinitely more examples obviously. The number of strokes would normally be impossible to quantify, so the golfer would usually have to guess.
For example, if a pro averaged 71.0 strokes while using his favorite shoes, and was paid to wear golf sandals, and that resulted in a stroke average of 71.1, how much money would it take for the pro to wear the sandals? There are infinitely more examples obviously. The number of strokes would normally be impossible to quantify, so the golfer would usually have to guess.
If he could quantify such a difference – no way. If he strongly suspected such a difference – no way. The cost/benefit of winning is much better than the cost/benefit that a non-winner can get sponsoring that we don’t even have to move on to self-image and honesty.
For example, if a pro averaged 71.0 strokes while using his favorite shoes, and was paid to wear golf sandals, and that resulted in a stroke average of 71.1, how much money would it take for the pro to wear the sandals? There are infinitely more examples obviously. The number of strokes would normally be impossible to quantify, so the golfer would usually have to guess.
Jeff, I believe this question would focus on newer touring pros, verses the likes of established pros that have earned millions, like Faldo, Kite, Fuzzy, DD, DL, etc. If it meant leaving the tour and taking a real job verses wearing or playing some product for a while, I believe the newer pros would choose to gamble and wear or play something he or she is not all that excited about. It’s a P&L business out there and staying out there is more important then the ribbing they might take in the locker room or by TV analysts. I do NOT believe there are many products that would actually hurt the game of an established pro… There have been a few PGA pros that have worn sandals, SRPGA pros that have worn tennis and hiking shoes. Many have played some strange irons, putters and adorned themselves with strange clothing…all for the sponsors buck. G
Your thesis with regards to the top pros is flawed as they are very conservative and slow to change equipment, i.e.. Tiger playing Mizumo’s stamped Titleist. Some of the lesser guys especially on the downside of their career with children to send to college can be "bought" but there is no way you can quantify improvement or lack there of. Given the player is "comfortable" with a set of equipment, wind and weather have to be bigger factors than the equipment change. PS: Every try golf sandals in fire ant country?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The question basically is: would touring professionals accept payment to use equipment or accessories if it ultimately resulted in a higher score, and if so, what is the proportion of money to strokes? For example, if a pro averaged 71.0 strokes while using his favorite shoes, and was paid to wear golf sandals, and that resulted in a stroke average of 71.1, how much money would it take for the pro to wear the sandals? There are infinitely more examples obviously. The number of strokes would normally be impossible to quantify, so the golfer would usually have to guess.
The question basically is: would touring professionals accept payment to use equipment or accessories if it ultimately resulted in a higher score, and if so, what is the proportion of money to strokes? For example, if a pro averaged 71.0 strokes while using his favorite shoes, and was paid to wear golf sandals, and that resulted in a stroke average of 71.1, how much money would it take for the pro to wear the sandals? There are infinitely more examples obviously. The number of strokes would normally be impossible to quantify, so the golfer would usually have to guess.