Question:
This post is incorrect in so many ways that I don’t even know if it’s worthwhile trying to enumerate them. if i am wrong, kindly inform Bobby what the rules violation was. There was no rules violation because there are no rules. Except in the minds of a few people who "police" the alt hierarchy on their own initiative. The person who responded to Bobby was incorrect.
i am not incorrect. i explained the rules violation ‘in accordance with the minds of a few people who police the alt hierarchy on their own inititiative" after all that was the question that Bobby asked. i say again, i am not justifying these ‘rules’. i only interpreted it for the benefit of one who asked the question. i dont beleive that was worth the insult. regards Mark Blake Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it." RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/blakem.htm
Response:
]]]Z[[[, you forgot, "Thou shalt not attempt to hit from a water hazard unlest thou canst part them first."
Try some floating balls GZ! ]]]Z[[[
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Why? I never worry about the water... it's just there to catch your balls...LOL! Stuart Winsor
- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - ]]]Z[[[, you forgot, "Thou shalt not attempt to hit from a water hazard unlest thou canst part them first." Try some floating balls GZ! ]]]Z[[[
Response:
This post is incorrect in so many ways that I don't even know if it's worthwhile trying to enumerate them.
if i am wrong, kindly inform Bobby what the rules violation was. (Bobby your answer is here http://www.faqs.org/usenet/alt/naming.html see reference Top Level Problem in Alt) i am not arguing in favour of the egotistical minority who hang out in alt.config an issue rmgroup commands, nor in ignorance of alt.swedish.chef....... i just answered Bobbys question, because he wanted to know. the proof is in the pudding, i dont have the group on my newsserver and neither does Deja.com. regards Mark Blake Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it." RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/blakem.htm
Response:
This post is incorrect in so many ways that I don’t even know if it’s worthwhile trying to enumerate them. if i am wrong, kindly inform Bobby what the rules violation was.
There was no rules violation because there are no rules. Except in the minds of a few people who "police" the alt hierarchy on their own initiative. The person who responded to Bobby was incorrect. (Bobby your answer is here http://www.faqs.org/usenet/alt/naming.html see reference Top Level Problem in Alt)
There’s no answer there. That stuff is a joke. Seriously. The guys who wrote it get a good chuckle every day that they see someone try to conform to it. i am not arguing in favour of the egotistical minority who hang out in alt.config an issue rmgroup commands, nor in ignorance of alt.swedish.chef……. i just answered Bobbys question, because he wanted to know. the proof is in the pudding, i dont have the group on my newsserver and neither does Deja.com.
It’ll be on both your newsserver and Deja if you ask for it. It is certainly "out there." -joseph — Joseph N. Hall … perl, golf, music, and so on Music – http://www.digitalweapons.com Book — http://www.effectiveperl.com The Usual Crap — http://www.5sigma.com/joseph
Response:
i say again, i am not justifying these ‘rules’. i only interpreted it for the benefit of one who asked the question. i dont beleive that was worth the insult.
The original poster got a non-customer-service-oriented response from a customer service person at his "service provider." I am trying to make it clear that it was bullshit and the problem is with the attitude of the customer service dweeb, not with the newsgroup. You are not helping me pass on this understanding. His service provider can add the newsgroup any damn time someone takes the trouble to type a couple of lines. Net negative consequence: zero. -joseph — Joseph N. Hall … perl, golf, music, and so on Music – http://www.digitalweapons.com Book — http://www.effectiveperl.com The Usual Crap — http://www.5sigma.com/joseph
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Half the people in this country probably couldn’t name the first ten amendments,
Oh….? Surely it’s not that bad…lets see… Thou shalt not Kill… Don ‘t steal… No adultry… No swearing… Something about graven images… Don’t ground the club in a bunker… ]]]Z[[[
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]]]Z[[[, you forgot, "Thou shalt not attempt to hit from a water hazard unlest thou canst part them first." Stuart Winsor
- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Thou shalt not Kill... Don 't steal... No adultry... No swearing... Something about graven images... Don't ground the club in a bunker... ]]]Z[[[
Response:
]]]Z[[[, you forgot, "Thou shalt not attempt to hit from a water hazard unlest thou canst part them first."
Or unless you're the Son of the Great Course Designer In The Sky. Before you buy.
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This post is incorrect in so many ways that I don't even know if it's worthwhile trying to enumerate them. The "rules" you may see for creating alt groups are the product of the opinion of a rather egotistical (although sometimes well intentioned) minority. It's as if I or Ken Pitts alone wrote the FAQ for rec.sport.golf and began cancelling messages posted to this newsgroup that didn't meet my (or Ken's) standards. Maybe my standards are well intentioned. They still wouldn't be authoritative. They're irrelevant to anyone who chooses to ignore them. The alt hierarchy is a pure anarchy. There is no voting. There are no real standards. There's just the groups that get traffic, and the rest. The "rest" will wither and die over time. -joseph - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Eric: This doesn't fully explain what the violations are. Is it because of its second level hierarchy? We still carry it and I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be there if there were violations. the rules violation was that the new newsgroup alt.golf.forsale was creating a 3rd level hierarchy (for sale) and a 2nd level heirarchy (golf). you cant create two new levels in any one newsgroup establishment. in other words alt.golf has to be created before you go further and create alt.golf.forsale (and i am certain that alt.golf has to be active)
Not true. There is no such rule for "alt." Perhaps you're not familiar with the (fairly well trafficked) alt.swedish.chef.bork.bork.bork newsgroup. (You don't even need a preexisting hierarchy to create a big seven newsgroup! You just need a charter and a vote.) for those who would like to create this group you may have better success trying alt.forsale.golf or alt.golf-forsale i think rec.sport.golf.forsale would be harder to set up, i am not even sure where you would find the rules for the rec.* groups but i could if somebody needed help.
The group is created. It's a done deal. It's in the hierarchy. as for some news servers still carrying alt.golf.forsale this is becuase no one organisation owns the full list of newsgroups or usenet. from the context of the quoted message this is a warning to all major newsfeeds that they should no longer carry the newsgroup. it can take quite some time for this request to be fully passed around to the thousands of news servers out there. until this happens the newsgroup will still appear active but will die a slow death.
The "rmgroup" that you refer to was issued right after the group was newgrouped. This is normal for any newly created alt group. Someone will rmgroup it. Most ISPs ignore rmgroup messages. In general, smaller news servers automatically create ALL new groups and ignore rmgroup messages. Larger news servers also ignore rmgroups but generally only add groups that are request by users. Groups created in the "big seven" hierarchy are chartered, voted, etc. No such process exists for alt groups. Someone creates the group, people post to it or not, it makes it or not. -joseph -- Joseph N. Hall ... perl, golf, music, and so on Music -- http://www.digitalweapons.com Book -- http://www.effectiveperl.com The Usual Crap -- http://www.5sigma.com/joseph
Response:
Eric, I've never heard of Airnews. OTOH, I have heard of @Home and SuperNews, both of which do carry it. So does another big name in Usenet, DejaNews and quite a few others. It sounds like this Frank Durda (the IV, no less!) fellow is confused about the differences between Big 8 (rec.*, sci.*, soc.*, etc) and the alt.* heirarchies WRT newsgroup creation. Did his guy issue the rmgroup command himself? If he did, he overstepped his bounds by a *very* large margin. Assuming he is the sysadmin for Airnews, he does have the authority to refuse to carry AGF on Airnews' servers, but he damn sure doesn't have the authority to tell anyone else to take it off. I requested to add alt.golf.forsale on my provider airnews, which is a very large provider of usenet news. They said that alt.golf.forsale was ordered off usenet for rules violations as soon as it was created. Maybe rec.sport.golf.forsale should be created instead? I don't think it is fair to tell people to move their posts to alt.golf.forsale when it was not created correctly and is not an official newsgroup. Frank Durda IV writes:
<snipped -- Dan Driscoll Current USGA Handicap Index - 14.7 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Keep Usenet Clean, Trash a Spammer!
Response:
Did his guy issue the rmgroup command himself? If he did, he overstepped his bounds by a *very* large margin. Assuming he is the sysadmin for Airnews, he does have the authority to refuse to carry AGF on Airnews' servers, but he damn sure doesn't have the authority to tell anyone else to take it off. his authority comes from your 7th Amendment (?), you know the free speech one. anybody can tell others to do such a thing. whether the recipients agree with his request is up to them to decide. regards Mark Blake
hehehe... First, Mark. First amendment. Half the people in this country probably couldn't name the first ten amendments, but everybody knows they have a first amendment right to say almost anything. Most are aware of their right to a jury trial, but don't know it comes from the 7th amendment. So, as an American, the guy may have a right to tell people not to carry a newsgroup. In terms of authority, however, I'd have to agree with Dan. Authority implies that you have some means of forcing compliance. Obviously my ISP isn't very impressed by this guy's authority because they still carry AGF. I've taken a few minutes to peruse the offerings on alt.* once in a while. It's hard for me to imagine all of these thousands of groups were created by some prescribed process, yet they're still carried. Joe -- "It is not depravity that afflicts the human race so much as a general lack of intelligence." - Agnes Repplier
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Did his guy issue the rmgroup command himself? If he did, he overstepped his bounds by a *very* large margin. Assuming he is the sysadmin for Airnews, he does have the authority to refuse to carry AGF on Airnews' servers, but he damn sure doesn't have the authority to tell anyone else to take it off.
his authority comes from your 7th Amendment (?), you know the free speech one. anybody can tell others to do such a thing. whether the recipients agree with his request is up to them to decide. regards Mark Blake Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it." RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/blakem.htm
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Mine too.
I still have it on my news server. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bruce
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I requested to add alt.golf.forsale on my provider airnews, which is a very large provider of usenet news. They said that alt.golf.forsale was ordered off usenet for rules violations as soon as it was created.
Whoever you heard from at Airnews doesn’t know what he’s talking about, Eric. There are no such "rules" in the alt. heirarchy to be violated. It is up to each ISP whether or not to accept the creation of new alt. groups and whether or not to continue to carry them. But there is no formal set of rules the groups must follow or run the risk of being banned Usenet-wide. — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
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Ditto Jay Beckman Chandler, AZ
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mine too. FWIW, I still have it on my news server. Bruce
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Eric: This doesn’t fully explain what the violations are. Is it because of its second level hierarchy? We still carry it and I’m pretty sure that it wouldn’t be there if there were violations.
the rules violation was that the new newsgroup alt.golf.forsale was creating a 3rd level hierarchy (for sale) and a 2nd level heirarchy (golf). you cant create two new levels in any one newsgroup establishment. in other words alt.golf has to be created before you go further and create alt.golf.forsale (and i am certain that alt.golf has to be active) for those who would like to create this group you may have better success trying alt.forsale.golf or alt.golf-forsale i think rec.sport.golf.forsale would be harder to set up, i am not even sure where you would find the rules for the rec.* groups but i could if somebody needed help. as for some news servers still carrying alt.golf.forsale this is becuase no one organisation owns the full list of newsgroups or usenet. from the context of the quoted message this is a warning to all major newsfeeds that they should no longer carry the newsgroup. it can take quite some time for this request to be fully passed around to the thousands of news servers out there. until this happens the newsgroup will still appear active but will die a slow death. regards Mark Blake Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it." RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/blakem.htm
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Say what? I *just today* had it added by my news provider. There aren’t many messages in it–yet–but that’s because it starts out empty. So it appears to be alive and well (and thanks again, Joseph Hall, for getting it going). I have two items I’m posting there. I’ve been waiting FOREVER (it seems 
to have it added here. They had better not remove it! :) Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I requested to add alt.golf.forsale on my provider airnews, which is a very large provider of usenet news. They said that alt.golf.forsale was ordered off usenet for rules violations as soon as it was created. Maybe rec.sport.golf.forsale should be created instead? I don’t think it is fair to tell people to move their posts to alt.golf.forsale when it was not created correctly and is not an official newsgroup. Frank Durda IV writes: I n t e r n e t America Airnews Newsgroup Addition First Name: Eric Last Name: Nadler Customer ID: nadler Group you wish to add: alt.golf.forsale Description of the group: Buying and selling of golf equipment This group was created around June 7th and was immediately removed from USENET for the USENET rules violations listed below. This group should not exist anywhere on USENET. In most cases, groups that were removed for rules violations can be salvaged, by presenting a charter for the group to alt.config and allowing discussion on that for a week. After a week of largely non-negative response, a new control message can be sent that includes the new charter and the group would be carried. To date there have been no corrective discussions. Here are the removal message(s) we have received: Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.golf.forsale Control: rmgroup alt.golf.forsale This rmgroup is being issued for the following reasons: * New second level hierarchy These golf-related groups do exist: alt.binaries.games.golf 0000188293 0000178370 y clari.sports.golf 0000069831 0000064565 m clari.web.sports.golf 0000054733 0000049617 m de.rec.sport.golf 0000004881 0000002931 y fj.rec.sports.golf 0000009780 0000009608 y han.rec.sports.golf 0000001759 0000001617 y japan.sports.golf 0000000351 0000000292 y msn.forums.sports.golf 0000000000 0000000001 y newsguy.sports.golf 0000001784 0000001764 y pdaxs.sports.golf 0000003381 0000003266 y pdx.golf 0000004507 0000004386 y rec.sport.golf 0000394423 0000368422 y uk.sport.golf 0000019597 0000015296 y — Eric Nadler Alcatel USA Richardson, Tx
– — Mike Dalecki I do not patronize spammers! Help keep R.S.G clean. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
Eric: This doesn’t fully explain what the violations are. Is it because of its second level hierarchy? We still carry it and I’m pretty sure that it wouldn’t be there if there were violations. "Someone likes every shot" bk
FWIW, I still have it on my news server. Bruce RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
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Eric: This doesn’t fully explain what the violations are. Is it because of its second level hierarchy? We still carry it and I’m pretty sure that it wouldn’t be there if there were violations. "Someone likes every shot" bk
This "second level hierarchy" thing is completely bogus. There is a "Mr. rmgroup" in the Gods of Usenet who issues alt rmgroups based upon his own set of criteria. Some people agree with him, others disagree, but the groups that live on are the ones with traffic. If you ask me, at least, it’s a done deal. -joseph — Joseph N. Hall … perl, golf, music, and so on Music – http://www.digitalweapons.com Book — http://www.effectiveperl.com The Usual Crap — http://www.5sigma.com/joseph
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I requested to add alt.golf.forsale on my provider airnews, which is a very large provider of usenet news. They said that alt.golf.forsale was ordered off usenet for rules violations as soon as it was created. Maybe rec.sport.golf.forsale should be created instead? I don’t think it is fair to tell people to move their posts to alt.golf.forsale when it was not created correctly and is not an official newsgroup.
Virtually every newly-created alt newsgroup is rmgrouped at least once. No big deal. Many providers ignore rmgroups entirely. The guy who told you it was not "created correctly" is ignoring the reality of alt newsgroups, which is that the groups with traffic live, and the ones without traffic just sort of fade away. Tell them AOL, SuperNews, etc. carry it. Tell them it carries traffic. Tell them it helps keep undesired traffic out of r.s.g. If they don’t carry it, they’re supporting the spamming of r.s.g. -joseph — Joseph N. Hall … perl, golf, music, and so on Music – http://www.digitalweapons.com Book — http://www.effectiveperl.com The Usual Crap — http://www.5sigma.com/joseph
Response:
Eric: This doesn’t fully explain what the violations are. Is it because of its second level hierarchy? We still carry it and I’m pretty sure that it wouldn’t be there if there were violations. "Someone likes every shot" bk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I requested to add alt.golf.forsale on my provider airnews, which is a very large provider of usenet news. They said that alt.golf.forsale was ordered off usenet for rules violations as soon as it was created. Maybe rec.sport.golf.forsale should be created instead? I don’t think it is fair to tell people to move their posts to alt.golf.forsale when it was not created correctly and is not an official newsgroup. Frank Durda IV writes: I n t e r n e t America Airnews Newsgroup Addition <clip Group you wish to add: alt.golf.forsale Description of the group: Buying and selling of golf equipment This group was created around June 7th and was immediately removed from USENET for the USENET rules violations listed below. This group should not exist anywhere on USENET. In most cases, groups that were removed for rules violations can be salvaged, by presenting a charter for the group to alt.config and allowing discussion on that for a week. After a week of largely non-negative response, a new control message can be sent that includes the new charter and the group would be carried. To date there have been no corrective discussions. Here are the removal message(s) we have received: Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.golf.forsale Control: rmgroup alt.golf.forsale This rmgroup is being issued for the following reasons: * New second level hierarchy These golf-related groups do exist: alt.binaries.games.golf 0000188293 0000178370 y clari.sports.golf 0000069831 0000064565 m clari.web.sports.golf 0000054733 0000049617 m de.rec.sport.golf 0000004881 0000002931 y fj.rec.sports.golf 0000009780 0000009608 y han.rec.sports.golf 0000001759 0000001617 y japan.sports.golf 0000000351 0000000292 y msn.forums.sports.golf 0000000000 0000000001 y newsguy.sports.golf 0000001784 0000001764 y pdaxs.sports.golf 0000003381 0000003266 y pdx.golf 0000004507 0000004386 y rec.sport.golf 0000394423 0000368422 y uk.sport.golf 0000019597 0000015296 y — Eric Nadler Alcatel USA Richardson, Tx
Response:
I requested to add alt.golf.forsale on my provider airnews, which is a very large provider of usenet news. They said that alt.golf.forsale was ordered off usenet for rules violations as soon as it was created. Maybe rec.sport.golf.forsale should be created instead? I don’t think it is fair to tell people to move their posts to alt.golf.forsale when it was not created correctly and is not an official newsgroup. Frank Durda IV writes:
I n t e r n e t America Airnews Newsgroup Addition First Name: Eric Last Name: Nadler Customer ID: nadler Group you wish to add: alt.golf.forsale Description of the group: Buying and selling of golf equipment This group was created around June 7th and was immediately removed from USENET for the USENET rules violations listed below. This group should not exist anywhere on USENET. In most cases, groups that were removed for rules violations can be salvaged, by presenting a charter for the group to alt.config and allowing discussion on that for a week. After a week of largely non-negative response, a new control message can be sent that includes the new charter and the group would be carried. To date there have been no corrective discussions. Here are the removal message(s) we have received: Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.golf.forsale Control: rmgroup alt.golf.forsale This rmgroup is being issued for the following reasons: * New second level hierarchy These golf-related groups do exist: alt.binaries.games.golf 0000188293 0000178370 y clari.sports.golf 0000069831 0000064565 m clari.web.sports.golf 0000054733 0000049617 m de.rec.sport.golf 0000004881 0000002931 y fj.rec.sports.golf 0000009780 0000009608 y han.rec.sports.golf 0000001759 0000001617 y japan.sports.golf 0000000351 0000000292 y msn.forums.sports.golf 0000000000 0000000001 y newsguy.sports.golf 0000001784 0000001764 y pdaxs.sports.golf 0000003381 0000003266 y pdx.golf 0000004507 0000004386 y rec.sport.golf 0000394423 0000368422 y uk.sport.golf 0000019597 0000015296 y — Eric Nadler Alcatel USA Richardson, Tx