Question:
A very good post by Warren about what is the difference between classic and modern courses. Classic Features Gimmics Designed for walking Designed for riding (long green-tee distances, cart paths)
I was at a Northern California Golf Association (NCGA) meeting on Monday. They showed slides of the work in progress course Poppy Ridge. Poppy Hills was a course built by the NCGA, and Poppy Ridge is their second course. It is in Livermore and should be opening in November of this year. There will be 27 holes. The General Manager of Poppy Hills and Poppy Ridge was going on about how Poppy Ridge is a classic type course. He mentioned that Rees Jones (architect of Poppy Ridge) is a much more classic designer than his brother Robert Jones Jr. (architect of Poppy Hills). Accept for the hideous cart paths, the course did have a very classic look to it. After the presentation I asked if the course was going to be walkable. He said it would probably be a slightly tougher walk than Poppy Hills (walkable, but not easily. I’ve only walked 36 out there once, and I was very tired after wards). He said there are a few instances of 200 to 300 yard hikes from green to the next tee. It sounds like yet another course where they are going to force as many people as possible into carts. A shame that the NCGA would allow and encourage this type of design. Dan King In the future, will anyone ever understand this quote: The steps you hit your drive past your opponent are the most golden you’ll walk in your life. –Paul Berthody
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Your list was very insightful. One thing I didn’t notice was "setting." OSU Scarlet is a magnificent golf course in a less than classic setting. I don’t know if this should be held against the course though. What do you think? OSU Scarlet is a parkland course, bounded on all sides by suburban roads and residential areas. Certain teeing grounds you can look into people’s back yards, one fairway parallels a road, traffic noise impinges sometimes. I don’t really care because the golfing experience is so fun, however if I step back and take an objective look OSU Scarlet (fairly or unfairly?) can be faulted in its setting. –Jh
JH, Granted, OSU Scarlet is not Augusta. In fact, on #17 with a hook wind and a left pin I have more than once watched my Titleist chase a car down Kenny road. I do not, however, feel that this should be held against the course. For example, is Oakmont’s "classic" nature diminished by the fact that a highway splits the course in two and you can hear the passing tractor-trailors from a number of holes? For that matter is St. Andrew’s diminished by the businesses and hotels that run along the "road" hole? I feel that you can’t blame a course for the developments on land that it does not control. Few courses are as fortunate as say Pebble or Cypress Point (especially classic courses built 50-60 years ago) in having a secluded environment. (It helps to border an ocean.) Frankly, IMHO I would rather play on a parklands course bordered by family homes and residential roads, than an architectural masterpiece bordered by Phase four of a multi-million dollar Condo/Housing development where stray tee-shots disturb people swimming in their pools.(I have played both kinds of courses.) BTW OSU Scarlet has only six holes that are on the outer edges of the course 4, 5(tee only), 14(green only),15, 16, and 17. The Gray course usually serves as a buffer between Scarlet and the residential areas. And further, I for one would hate to play 16 (a dogleg left with tee and green bordering a road) without hearing the story of how Jack used to take the ball out over the road and fade it back to the green for an eagle try. Regards, Bill B. — Bill Boettcher Department of Political Science The Ohio State University
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Classic Features Gimmics [...] By my definition, the OSU Scarlet course sounds like a potential classic, as would many, but not all, of the ones that show up on everyone’s top 50 list.
Your list was very insightful. One thing I didn’t notice was "setting." OSU Scarlet is a magnificent golf course in a less than classic setting. I don’t know if this should be held against the course though. What do you think? OSU Scarlet is a parkland course, bounded on all sides by suburban roads and residential areas. Certain teeing grounds you can look into people’s back yards, one fairway parallels a road, traffic noise impinges sometimes. I don’t really care because the golfing experience is so fun, however if I step back and take an objective look OSU Scarlet (fairly or unfairly?) can be faulted in its setting. –Jh
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Just to follow up on OSU Scarlet. As a grad. student at OSU and a three year member of the course I have come to love Scarlet. The course may be one of the best college courses in the nation IMHO and is renowned for its traditional U.S. open type design. If the wind is up and the course is fast I am lucky to shoot in the 90s (14.0 index), with the greens soft and the tees up I can shoot low80s/high70s. The first four holes on the back nine are spectacular and no. 17 is one of the toughest par 3’s around. I was out of town for the NCAAs, but I did get a chance to follow Tiger Woods, Alan Bratton, and Trip Kuehne around during the Ping preview. The diffuculty of the greens and the length of the rough forced these great players to rely on sound game management– they were more than willing to settle for par on several of the tougher holes. To me a classic course is one where par is still a good score despite advances in technology, and mental and physical training. And of course, you get to here the old-timers tell wonderful Jack stories throughout the round. BTW for students the $210 membership may be the best value in golf anywhere. Regards, Bill B. — Bill Boettcher Department of Political Science The Ohio State University
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Classic Features Gimmics Alternate routes with Target golf with no alternative varying risk/reward but to hit the targets Hole routings exploiting Heavily sculpted landscape, the natural landscape severe mounds, island greens, etc. "Natural" hazards (waste Artificial hazards (bounce areas, woods, marshes, bunkers, excessive OB, excessive ponds, bunkers, ancient artificial ponds, planking around walls,) ponds, etc. Designed for walking Designed for riding (long green-tee distances, cart paths) Rolling greens maintained Speed or slope so severe moderate to fast downhill putts cannot be stopped excessive undulation, greens not fundamentally convex Multiple tees to All tees require long forced accomodate HCP 0-36 carries
Quote: "This was a beautiful Quote: "I wonder who the place to build a golf course" golf architect was" BDW
Response:
Your list was very insightful. One thing I didn’t notice was "setting." OSU Scarlet is a magnificent golf course in a less than classic setting. I don’t know if this should be held against the course though. What do you think? OSU Scarlet is a parkland course, bounded on all sides by suburban roads and residential areas. Certain teeing grounds you can look into people’s back yards, one fairway parallels a road, traffic noise impinges sometimes. I don’t really care because the golfing experience is so fun, however if I step back and take an objective look OSU Scarlet (fairly or unfairly?) can be faulted in its setting. –Jh
Nice to hear that we agree on Scarlet’s stature as a golf course, but I’ll bet that the setting around the course was much different in 1938 when the course was built. I don’t think we should fault the course for what has happened around it in the 58 years since then. I think that many other famous old courses in metropolitan areas have suffered the same fate. Tom
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I’m sure this subject has been touched on before, but I would like to see what qualities other golfers look for in a course that make it stand out from other golf courses they have played. I use the word "classic", for lack of a better term, as a "classic course" to some may mean an older course with a lot of tradition and history. The experts who rate golf courses for ranking purposes use such criteria as aesthetically pleasing, shot values, conditioning, etc., but what does Joe Golfer think? One of the things that make OSU Scarlet one of my favorites (beside the fact I’m a member there), is, although it is a long and difficult course from the championship tees, there are no long forced carries off the tee, and when a shot strays off target a little, you many times can use your imagination or a good short game to recover for par or even the occasional "career" birdie. The golf course is right out in front of you with no hidden hazards, and standing on the tee you can see that nearly every hole has several avenues of approach. I could go on, but in the interest of brevity, I’ll stop here and look forward to the opinions of my fellow golfers. Tom Young
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One of the things that make OSU Scarlet one of my favorites (beside the fact I’m a member there), is, [...]
Wanted to add that OSU Scarlet was designed by Dr. Alister MacKenzie, and was around 80 on Golf Digest’s Top 100 American courses. I have shot even 100 there, and then a week later an 81. Less "classic" courses have an upper limit of what I can blow-up to if I’m playing poorly. For me a classic course does brutally punish poor play, but need not go out of its way to suck you into trouble.
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I’m sure this subject has been touched on before, but I would like to see what qualities other golfers look for in a course that make it stand out from other golf courses they have played. I use the word "classic", for lack of a better term, as a "classic course" to some may mean an older course with a lot of tradition and history. The experts who rate golf courses for ranking purposes use such criteria as aesthetically pleasing, shot values, conditioning, etc., but what does Joe Golfer think?
Well, "Classic" seems to have become a marketing term used by many simply to advertize that their course, tournament, car, or whatever is desirable. To me, however, a classic course ought to be one that you want to play over and over again, one that is playable by people at different levels of ability, and one that is aesthetically pleasing to look at. Some might argue on the playability criterion, since it may rule out some fine layouts that require excessive forced carries to be playable by the average golfer, but there are enough excellent layouts that can be played by all. As for specific design features I’d suggest the following distinctions: Classic Features Gimmics Alternate routes with Target golf with no alternative varying risk/reward but to hit the targets Hole routings exploiting Heavily sculpted landscape, the natural landscape severe mounds, island greens, etc. "Natural" hazards (waste Artificial hazards (bounce areas, woods, marshes, bunkers, excessive OB, excessive ponds, bunkers, ancient artificial ponds, planking around walls,) ponds, etc. Designed for walking Designed for riding (long green-tee distances, cart paths) Rolling greens maintained Speed or slope so severe moderate to fast downhill putts cannot be stopped excessive undulation, greens not fundamentally convex Multiple tees to All tees require long forced accomodate HCP 0-36 carries Obviously you would need some leeway (i.e. Kidney shaped greens on a few holes are Ok, but embedded sand traps or shapes so contorted that a significant fraction of the lies on the green leave you no clear putt at the hole aren’t. In addition to design, a classic course needs first class maintenance and facilities and staff that make the experience enjoyable for you. By my definition, the OSU Scarlet course sounds like a potential classic, as would many, but not all, of the ones that show up on everyone’s top 50 list. Not that I don’t want to play every one of them at least once, but once I’ve hit an island green, approaching the same hole again holds no new challenge; only the possibility of great disappointment and frustration if I don’t hit the perfect shot again. — Warren Montgomery Lucent Technologies, formerly AT&T’s systems and technology business