Question:
I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Considering the stakes involved and the crowd control issues, that is excellent time. I have played in 6 hour tournament rounds several times this year. Ironically, in one of them, carts were required to "speed up play". I removed my bag on the second hole and walked despite being warned by the committee three times to get back on and ride. I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play" I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players. I would welcome comments from those of you who understand the relationship between group size and tee time spacing for optimal pace.
Response:
I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play"
The vast majority of us would kill to have 10 minute spacing. 7-8 minutes is pretty normal. KT
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I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players. I would welcome comments from those of you who understand the relationship between group size and tee time spacing for optimal pace.
This is why I prefer late afternoons when it’s hot. Almost no one behind you, ever, and if there are, they’re about 3-4 holes back. -b
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I’m most interested in spacing in order to run a tournament properly.
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I’m most interested in spacing in order to run a tournament properly.
My mistake. Appy-polly-logies. -b
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I have played in 6 hour tournament rounds several times this year. Ironically, in one of them, carts were required to "speed up play". I removed my bag on the second hole and walked despite being warned by the committee three times to get back on and ride.
Whoever gave them that rule either hasn’t got a clue or doesn’t want people to know how fast walking can be. I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play"
There’s not much that can be done with 10 minute intervals. One slow player and everybody’s slow.
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I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play" There’s not much that can be done with 10 minute intervals. One slow player and everybody’s slow.
I was thinking of 8 minute intervals. 10 minute intervals are when they might make some difference. Go to 12 minute intervals, and they aren’t needed.
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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Considering the stakes involved and the crowd control issues, that is excellent time. I have played in 6 hour tournament rounds several times this year. Ironically, in one of them, carts were required to "speed up play". I removed my bag on the second hole and walked despite being warned by the committee three times to get back on and ride. I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play" I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players. I would welcome comments from those of you who understand the relationship between group size and tee time spacing for optimal pace.
According to Dean Knuth, a 10 minute spacing should be plenty as long as the slope isn’t really high (like 135, if memory serves). If a 10 minute spacing is resulting in 6 hr rounds, there’s too much farting around going on by the players. Period. (Plumb-bobbing, practice swings, jokes, looking at putts from 35 different angles, etc.) You can find some info on his studies at www.popeofslope.com. HTH Kenny — Kenny Stultz – Troll and SPAM intolerant RSG Rollcall: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=stultzk "Golf is the only sport where a precise knowledge of the Rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship"
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with his/her presence, and uttered…..: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Considering the stakes involved and the crowd control issues, that is excellent time. I have played in 6 hour tournament rounds several times this year. Ironically, in one of them, carts were required to "speed up play". I removed my bag on the second hole and walked despite being warned by the committee three times to get back on and ride. I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play" I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players. I would welcome comments from those of you who understand the relationship between group size and tee time spacing for optimal pace.
10 minute spacing? Oh, you lucky thing… We use 8 minute spacing and 4 player rounds are rarely longer than 4:30 (and even that, IMHO, is unacceptable – I like 2:45 rounds which we do regularly in a five). If it’s taking 6 hours to run a tournament round with 10 minute spacing, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong. As to what to do about it, well there’s the toughy. — Mad’Doug Trentham Camp GC, New Zealand RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=stokesd Please remove the apostrophe (‘) to email me
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I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Considering the stakes involved and the crowd control issues, that is excellent time.
Yeah, but you’re comparing to a "standard" for groups of 4, while they play in groups of 2. I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players. I would welcome comments from those of you who understand the relationship between group size and tee time spacing for optimal pace.
Groups of 2 or 3 are not an option for busy golf courses. However, making the spacing every 12 minutes instead of 10 or 8 might actually improve their throughput.
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I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Hey, WB, where did you see this stat? Cd
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Another approach may be a shot-gun start. Some courses will accomodate. With a shot-gun start everyone gets finished at the same time. With a staggered start the early guys finish 2 hours ahead, get hungry, get drunk, and often leave before the last group finishes. Ed
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Considering the stakes involved and the crowd control issues, that is excellent time. I have played in 6 hour tournament rounds several times this year. Ironically, in one of them, carts were required to "speed up play". I removed my bag on the second hole and walked despite being warned by the committee three times to get back on and ride. I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play" I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players. I would welcome comments from those of you who understand the relationship between group size and tee time spacing for optimal pace.
Response:
I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Considering the stakes involved and the crowd control issues, that is excellent time. I have played in 6 hour tournament rounds several times this year. Ironically, in one of them, carts were required to "speed up play". I removed my bag on the second hole and walked despite being warned by the committee three times to get back on and ride. I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play"
I’m amazed that you suspect 10 minute intervals to be a problem. We run 8-9 minute intervals, and we’re clogged up frequently. To be fair: actually, when there’s no greeter on the first hole, what happens is that people hit off the tee when the foursome ahead of them has cleared the teeshot landing area. Then they wait on every shot, pile up on the second tee, the third tee, the fourth tee, and don’t begin to get spaced properly until 5 or 6, if that. On the other hand, I’ve played at Poppy Hills and Poppy Ridge, the two courses run by the NCGA, where 10-minute intervals are standard, and starters are on the teeboxes. Hasn’t been a problem at all. In fact, on two occasions it’s been a challenge to keep up with the group ahead. If they’re not in the punishing rough looking for their balls, and I am (which is quite predictable), it’s a chore to keep up.
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I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play"
To figure out how close the tee times can be without backing up, find the point on the course where it takes longest for a player to hit a shot and play through to the point where he/she is out of the way of someone in the same spot (usually this is the tee box of a long par 3 but on some courses it may be the second shot on a long par 5). That length of time is the shortest possible tee time interval. Think about it — if the times are closer than that, then people go off the tee faster than they get past the choke point and they must be backing up somewhere in between. The backup will extend the length of play as long as full groups continue to go off the first tee. 10 minutes is usually good enough. I suspect the real problem is tournament conditions cause people to slow down because it matters. I also think that watching the pros and habitually playing in a cart has something to do with it. Not all cart players are slow, but one thing that happens if you play in a cart is you get used to the hurry up and wait pace, where you know you are just going to wait after driving up to our ball so you start to kill time and develop a habit of not being ready to hit as soon as you get to the ball. Couple that with some extra time on the green and you rapidly start to extend playing time. — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Considering the stakes involved and the crowd control issues, that is excellent time. I have played in 6 hour tournament rounds several times this year. Ironically, in one of them, carts were required to "speed up play". I removed my bag on the second hole and walked despite being warned by the committee three times to get back on and ride. I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play" I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players. I would welcome comments from those of you who understand the relationship between group size and tee time spacing for optimal pace. According to Dean Knuth, a 10 minute spacing should be plenty as long as the slope isn’t really high (like 135, if memory serves). If a 10 minute spacing is resulting in 6 hr rounds, there’s too much farting around going on by the players. Period. (Plumb-bobbing, practice swings, jokes, looking at putts from 35 different angles, etc.) You can find some info on his studies at www.popeofslope.com. HTH Kenny
10 min is wonderful when combiined with a good starter and marshall. Puttster
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Yes, but, the course management has to be involved and make it a priority by actually doing something other than saying, play ready golf, there is a problem, but we can’t do anything. David
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I was thinking of 8 minute intervals. 10 minute intervals are when they might make some difference. Go to 12 minute intervals, and they aren’t needed.
Unless there’s a shotgun start. Then 10 minute intervals are too slow. Shotgun tournaments are the slowest, everybody is in carts, and the intervals aren’t constant, causing traffic jams.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Considering the stakes involved and the crowd control issues, that is excellent time. I have played in 6 hour tournament rounds several times this year. Ironically, in one of them, carts were required to "speed up play". I removed my bag on the second hole and walked despite being warned by the committee three times to get back on and ride. I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play" I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players. I would welcome comments from those of you who understand the relationship between group size and tee time spacing for optimal pace.
10 minutes should be good enough. It is amazing what a difference it can make, though. My home course tried to go from 10 minute spacing to 9 minutes last year. The first two weekends were chaos! 5 1/2 hour, 6 hour rounds. They switched back to 10 minutes, of course. 
Carts can speed up play on some courses, especially when there’s a long distance from the greens to the next tee box. OTOH "cart path only" rules can cause them to have the opposite effect, too. JL
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I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Considering the stakes involved and the crowd control issues, that is excellent time.
Well, maybe. How many golfers were in each group? Two? How long would they have taken if they’d had foursomes? I have played in 6 hour tournament rounds several times this year. Ironically, in one of them, carts were required to "speed up play". I removed my bag on the second hole and walked despite being warned by the committee three times to get back on and ride.
I’ve long thought that there’s no meaningful difference between riders and walkers. The difference is between slow golfers and fast golfers, however they get around the course. I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play"
The problem simply is that people don’t know how to play fast. I don’t mean rushing one’s shot, I mean doing the little things that speed up play. For example, like leaving your bag or cart on the exit side of the green, making your scorecard away from the green, carrying two or three clubs over to your ball in case the one you think is right is not right, leaving your chipping clubs on the side of the hole your cart or bag is on, reading your putt before it’s your turn if at all possible, having the flag ready to plant as soon as the last player is in, thinking about what you’re going to do before it’s your turn, finding yardages as you come up to your ball so you don’t have to search around, and so on. Not one of those things requires a person to rush. I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players.
Well, it may help w/ the second, but I think what you’re going to do is push a lot fewer people through with those spacings. I would welcome comments from those of you who understand the relationship between group size and tee time spacing for optimal pace.
I don’t know if I understand that relationship or not, but I do think that group size and tee time spacing are not the only things that matter. I have, on occasion, played in fivesomes here, and we get done in under 4 hours. Why? Because we play ready golf, and we do the things I mentioned above. IMO, the problem is slow players, not group size or tee times. There are many places where people get in rounds in under 3 hours because they don’t fart around. I wonder why no courses I’ve heard about have worked on speeding up play and advertising that as such. For instance, you could advertise that you will have sub-4-hour rounds or a coupon for 25% off the next round. And also advertise that rangers *will* remove golfers from the course who are slowing up play. Yeah, you’d piss off a few people, but in the long run, wouldn’t you attract a ton of people who want to play quickly? You’d actually be able to get more people through the course in a day, and you’d make *more* money, not less. <sigh Never happen, of course. Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
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I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Hey, WB, where did you see this stat? Cd
I timed it with my TiVo.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the final group at the PGA played in 4:11 and the US Women’s Open threesome playoff finished in 3:57. Considering the stakes involved and the crowd control issues, that is excellent time. I have played in 6 hour tournament rounds several times this year. Ironically, in one of them, carts were required to "speed up play". I removed my bag on the second hole and walked despite being warned by the committee three times to get back on and ride. I suspect that part of the problem is playing in foursomes with tee times 10 minutes apart. The course gets so clogged up that it does no good to warn people about "slow play" I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players. I would welcome comments from those of you who understand the relationship between group size and tee time spacing for optimal pace. 10 minutes should be good enough. It is amazing what a difference it can make, though. My home course tried to go from 10 minute spacing to 9 minutes last year. The first two weekends were chaos! 5 1/2 hour, 6 hour rounds. They switched back to 10 minutes, of course. Carts can speed up play on some courses, especially when there’s a long distance from the greens to the next tee box. OTOH "cart path only" rules can cause them to have the opposite effect, too. JL
9 min tee times are the pits!!! The muni I play at has 9 min tee times. The course sees thousands of rounds each year, so it is extremely busy. Weekends and some of the busier weekdays are really slow. However, the Pro could care less what the quality of the golf is…. soon as he has your money for his cart and green fees, all he wants is you on the first tee… and gone.
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I suspect threesomes or twosomes with spread out tee times would speed up play and make it easier to spot and penalize slow players.
That won’t really help. With a 4some you have an acceptable pace, with a 3some the acceptable pace is faster and a 2 some even faster. So if you change from all 4somes to all 3 somes you just get a different train wreck… but it’s still a train wreck. Spreading the tee times (if they are too close together) will help some. If they are already adaquate, it won’t help. Working in a university has taught me a couple of things. People don’t pay attention… and they can’t read. You have to beat them over the head with anything… if you want them to even notice. Even that may not make them care. So you have to have carts that drone it into them that they are behind and need to speed up, and marshals that hound them until they do. Very little can be done to help the persistent slow golfer short of hole skipping or removal from the course. A slow gofler willing to change can be prodded into faster play.
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For example, like leaving your bag or cart on the exit side of the green, making your scorecard away from the green, carrying two or three clubs over to your ball in case the one you think is right is not right, leaving your chipping clubs on the side of the hole your cart or bag is on, reading your putt before it’s your turn if at all possible, having the flag ready to plant as soon as the last player is in, thinking about what you’re going to do before it’s your turn, finding yardages as you come up to your ball so you don’t have to search around, and so on.
Planning ahead not only is quicker – it is "golf". Course management, thinking about the coming shot, observing the course – they’re all golf. I wonder why no courses I’ve heard about have worked on speeding up play and advertising that as such. For instance, you could advertise that you will have sub-4-hour rounds or a coupon for 25% off the next round. And also advertise that rangers *will* remove golfers from the course who are slowing up play. Yeah, you’d piss off a few people, but in the long run, wouldn’t you attract a ton of people who want to play quickly? You’d actually be able to get more people through the course in a day, and you’d make *more* money, not less.
You will have lots of people frustrated at the pace of play of the people in front of them. I’d rather pay a bit more and drive a bit farther, and go to a course with a longer tee interval time (with good marshals).
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9 min tee times are the pits!!! The muni I play at has 9 min tee times. The course sees thousands of rounds each year, so it is extremely busy. Weekends and some of the busier weekdays are really slow. However, the Pro could care less what the quality of the golf is…. soon as he has your money for his cart and green fees, all he wants is you on the first tee… and gone.
So you must really be motivated to keep playing at the same muni instead of switching.
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9 min tee times are the pits!!! The muni I play at has 9 min tee times. The course sees thousands of rounds each year, so it is extremely busy. Weekends and some of the busier weekdays are really slow. However, the Pro could care less what the quality of the golf is…. soon as he has your money for his cart and green fees, all he wants is you on the first tee… and gone. So you must really be motivated to keep playing at the same muni instead of switching.
I don’t choose to drive 35 miles 3 times a week, so I just have to suffer with the 9 min tee times and slow golf. Besides, out of maybe 110 rounds of golf a season, there could be 3 to 5 that you could get lucky and not have to play behind slow play. Of course the wind might be blowing in excess of 30 mph, and/or it might only be 47 degrees outside air temp, on those days.