Question:
One thing to keep in mind… slope is applicable to the bogey golfer (only reason for having slope), course rating is applicable to the scratch
golfer. I agree that rating is applicable only the the scratch golfer (it is like a point on a line). However, slope is not supposed to be applicable just to the bogey golfer. It’s simply that the bogey golfer is used to create a point that defines the slope line. But notice they don’t tell you what the point is. (If they did, they’d have a second rating for the bogey golfer.) They intended the slope to work for all handicap golfers above scratch. If you are somewhere in between (say you typically shoot 9 or 10 over) you don’t fit either perfectly.
They admit that there are certain types of golfers that don’t get fit by the slope correctly, but they base it on "style" of golfer, not handicap. A typical 9 handicap is supposed to be fit by the slope just fine. That’s what the intent is, anyway. On the other hand, there are certain "bogey" golfers that would not be fitted to the slope correctly at all.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excerpt from Dean Knuth’s web site, http://www.popeofslope.com: "USGA Slope Ratings range from a high of 152 for Pine Valley Golf Club down to 55 for very short executive length golf courses. Approximately 50% of golf courses rated by the USGA have Slope Ratings between 100 and 120. Well there’s one fly in the ointment right there… I exclude executive coures from this discussion. They aren’t true golf courses. 
We (Dean and I) are discussing apples and organges. :) After the USGA Slope Ratings have been determined by a rating team, each golfer’s handicap is converted to a decimal USGA Handicap Index, which is the handicap that would be developed by always playing an average Slope course (113) such as ‘Perfect Valley.’…" The interesting things I saw in this were "50% of golf courses…between 100 and 120" and "average Slope course (113)". So, I guess my menory is still okay. 
The interesting thing to me is that executive courses were included… but that would explain how the average gets pulled down from 120+ (where I surmise it to be) to 113 where Dean says it is.
Well, there are two ends to this continuum. Some 30+ handicappers would say that Pine Valley isn’t a true golf course because it is unrealistically tough. Of course, you can’t exclude parts of a system in its overall evalution. If all courses of at least 3000 yards are to be included, you would need to consider them all in coming up with an average of anything. I doubt very much though that the inclusion or exclusion of executive courses would have a dramatic affect on average Slope value. Eliminate executive courses and maybe it becomes 114. *guessing* We have 45 or so courses in New Brunswick. If I have a chance, I will average the Slopes from the middle tees just for fun. Bruce http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
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The way I see it, the entire handicapping system is evolving continually. As more and more big, modern courses are built and fewer and fewer inferior courses remain open, the average Slope rating will have to increase.
That sounds reasonable… As it does, perhaps the USGA will change their calculation and gradually re-rate courses to reflect this.
I don’t see why that is necessary… 113 is the baseline… why change it? dsc
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The way I see it, the entire handicapping system is evolving continually. As more and more big, modern courses are built and fewer and fewer inferior courses remain open, the average Slope rating will have to increase. That sounds reasonable… As it does, perhaps the USGA will change their calculation and gradually re-rate courses to reflect this. I don’t see why that is necessary… 113 is the baseline… why change it?
Maybe no reason. I just rate courses, but have no background or real interest in the math behind the process. Maybe 113 is fine. Bruce http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff, Dudley Cornman has said pretty much the same thing and I can only surmise that, as ardent golfers, we tend to play better courses. … The interesting things I saw in this were "50% of golf courses…between 100 and 120" and "average Slope course (113)". So, I guess my menory is still okay. Yeah, that is interesting. FWIW, it seems very logical to me that this 113 average will increase over time. Is this something that’s "allowed" to go up, and older ratings will be lowered? Or will 113 rated courses of the future be better than similar ratings of the past??
Easier courses will disappear and be replaced by harder courses… dsc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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[...] there are side hill lies but nothing drastic). Water comes into play on 5 or 6 holes, but I’ll take water over deep woods any day of the week! I’m with you on this one Rod. There are many courses here on the left coast that definately don’t play to what the card reads. I’ve played many a 125 course and ate it up. I’ve had 110 courses eat me up (Furry Creek). I think the place too much emphasis on distance.
One thing to keep in mind… slope is applicable to the bogey golfer (only reason for having slope), course rating is applicable to the scratch golfer. If you are somewhere in between (say you typically shoot 9 or 10 over) you don’t fit either perfectly. You may have to cosider slope and course rating to get an idea of how difficult the course is for you. A high slope does not always indicate a high course rating, etc. dsc
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without information about your course, Dean, it is difficult to help you. I can say, however, that the US average Slope is 113. If your course is of average difficulty, perhaps this is close. Do you think it’s an actual average of all courses, or simply a baseline "median" number? It seems to me virtually every course I play has a rating of at least 113. Jeff, Dudley Cornman has said pretty much the same thing and I can only surmise that, as ardent golfers, we tend to play better courses. As I mentioned previously, I always understood the 113 figure to be the average of all US courses, not the "typical" or "median". I’ve checked Dean Knuth’s web site just to make sure the onset of old age hasn’t been flippin’ my brain around. Excerpt from Dean Knuth’s web site, http://www.popeofslope.com: "USGA Slope Ratings range from a high of 152 for Pine Valley Golf Club down to 55 for very short executive length golf courses. Approximately 50% of golf courses rated by the USGA have Slope Ratings between 100 and 120.
Well there’s one fly in the ointment right there… I exclude executive coures from this discussion. They aren’t true golf courses. We (Dean and I) are discussing apples and organges. :) After the USGA Slope Ratings have been determined by a rating team, each golfer’s handicap is converted to a decimal USGA Handicap Index, which is the handicap that would be developed by always playing an average Slope course (113) such as ‘Perfect Valley.’…" The interesting things I saw in this were "50% of golf courses…between 100 and 120" and "average Slope course (113)". So, I guess my menory is still okay.
The interesting thing to me is that executive courses were included… but that would explain how the average gets pulled down from 120+ (where I surmise it to be) to 113 where Dean says it is. dsc
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You could be right, Dudley, although Dean Knith told me it was the _average_ Slope in the US. Granted, this was a few years ago now and things might have changed. One thing I doubt very much is an average Slope of 125 (or so). Being avid golfers, we probably just play better courses but, believe me, I’ve rated some goat ranches!
There may be something to your quality of course theory. But my experience is 113 is typically a very short course with little or no trouble anywhere (wide open). Most courses with any length to them at all (say more than 6000 yards with any features (trees, bunkers, water, etc) are typically 120 or above. You could be right that if you took a true average of every full size ( no executive courses, etc) golf course in the US… it might be near 113… but I just can’t see it. dsc
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bruce – I also live in New Brunswick (Dieppe) after living in Schaumburg, Illinois for two years. The NBGA rates courses here in NB and I consider NB course ratings inconsistent with courses in Illinois and other parts of Atlantic Canada (PEI, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland). My observation is that distance is the biggest factor when slopes are assigned. In Illinois, the average length from the whites was about 6,100 yards and the slopes were in the 116 – 124 range. Here in New Brunswick the average length from the whites is about 5800 an slopes are in the range of 108 – 114. The inconsistancy comes from that I (boogie golfer, handicap index 17.8) find courses here in NB more difficult than anywhere else! Though shorter, many NB courses are very tight and if you hit a bad tee shot then you are in deep woods resulting in a lost ball (stroke and dist penalty) or if unluckily the ball is found then it is usually an unplaybale lie. To make things worst, you are not always rewarded for bing in the fairway because most fairways are bumpy and hard (most NB courses do not have fairway sprinklers and this summer has been especially dry). Sure you can make a probable case for poor course management but most people like to use their driver more than 4 times a round. Now on the other extreme, the newer upscale courses in Atlantic Canada have slopes that are way over-rated. Take the new Rees Jones course in Moncton, Royal Oaks, for instance. The whites are 6,173 yards and the rating and slope are 71.6 and 136 respectively. 136! Sure some greens are well guarded with bunkers and some fairways have bunkers in play from every tee (black tees are 7,103 yards; 76.2; 143) but the course is basically wide open and the fairways lies are always perfect (well, there are side hill lies but nothing drastic). Water comes into play on 5 or 6 holes, but I’ll take water over deep woods any day of the week!
Interesting points, Rod. You are correct in saying that distance is the greatest factor in determining Slope ratings. It is virtually impossible for a 5700-5800 yard course to have a high Slope, even with extremely high obstacle values. I don’t have any answers for the discrepancy though. I know that Dean Knuth has made a number of trips to NB for rating seminars and I am confident the courses were rated properly. Sometimes I wonder if they were rated _too_ properly. Hey, we’re getting enough NBers for an RSG NB! Bruce I do agree with your comments about NB courses being difficult though relatively short but cannot comment on Royal Oaks as I have not played it. The rating does seem out of whack from what you have said though. http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
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I think our system uses scores for the day. I can often tell when the course will rate higher because of weather conditions, tees and pin placements. My course is par 71, ACR of 71 but its CCR can be anywhere from 70 to 73 on any given day. Dean Gough
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Jeff, Dudley Cornman has said pretty much the same thing and I can only surmise that, as ardent golfers, we tend to play better courses. … FWIW, it seems very logical to me that this 113 average will increase over time. Is this something that’s "allowed" to go up, and older ratings will be lowered? Or will 113 rated courses of the future be better than similar ratings of the past??
The way I see it, the entire handicapping system is evolving continually. As more and more big, modern courses are built and fewer and fewer inferior courses remain open, the average Slope rating will have to increase. As it does, perhaps the USGA will change their calculation and gradually re-rate courses to reflect this. Keep in mind that this is not like flipping a switch. Changes in course rating policy typically come into being "on the next rating" of courses, so the changes would come over several years. Bruce http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
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Jeff, Dudley Cornman has said pretty much the same thing and I can only surmise that, as ardent golfers, we tend to play better courses. … The interesting things I saw in this were "50% of golf courses…between 100 and 120" and "average Slope course (113)". So, I guess my menory is still okay.
Yeah, that is interesting. FWIW, it seems very logical to me that this 113 average will increase over time.
Is this something that’s "allowed" to go up, and older ratings will be lowered? Or will 113 rated courses of the future be better than similar ratings of the past??
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Also FWIW, here is New Brunswick (not exactly an economic powerhouse) we have a lot of 113 Sloped courses. They are the older courses, typically 6000 yards or so. While we are getting some nice, new ones here, the older ones still exist and are the only course in town in many cases. A third FWIW, I have observed some unusually high ratings in the US that were undoubtedly used as marketing tools. Though most seem fine, I’ve thought some resorts were rated high and even courses in some geographic areas.
Bruce – I also live in New Brunswick (Dieppe) after living in Schaumburg, Illinois for two years. The NBGA rates courses here in NB and I consider NB course ratings inconsistent with courses in Illinois and other parts of Atlantic Canada (PEI, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland). My observation is that distance is the biggest factor when slopes are assigned. In Illinois, the average length from the whites was about 6,100 yards and the slopes were in the 116 – 124 range. Here in New Brunswick the average length from the whites is about 5800 an slopes are in the range of 108 – 114. The inconsistancy comes from that I (boogie golfer, handicap index 17.8) find courses here in NB more difficult than anywhere else! Though shorter, many NB courses are very tight and if you hit a bad tee shot then you are in deep woods resulting in a lost ball (stroke and dist penalty) or if unluckily the ball is found then it is usually an unplaybale lie. To make things worst, you are not always rewarded for bing in the fairway because most fairways are bumpy and hard (most NB courses do not have fairway sprinklers and this summer has been especially dry). Sure you can make a probable case for poor course management but most people like to use their driver more than 4 times a round. Now on the other extreme, the newer upscale courses in Atlantic Canada have slopes that are way over-rated. Take the new Rees Jones course in Moncton, Royal Oaks, for instance. The whites are 6,173 yards and the rating and slope are 71.6 and 136 respectively. 136! Sure some greens are well guarded with bunkers and some fairways have bunkers in play from every tee (black tees are 7,103 yards; 76.2; 143) but the course is basically wide open and the fairways lies are always perfect (well, there are side hill lies but nothing drastic). Water comes into play on 5 or 6 holes, but I’ll take water over deep woods any day of the week!
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Without information about your course, Dean, it is difficult to help you. I can say, however, that the US average Slope is 113. If your course is of average difficulty, perhaps this is close. Do you think it’s an actual average of all courses, or simply a baseline "median" number? It seems to me virtually every course I play has a rating of at least 113.
Jeff, Dudley Cornman has said pretty much the same thing and I can only surmise that, as ardent golfers, we tend to play better courses. As I mentioned previously, I always understood the 113 figure to be the average of all US courses, not the "typical" or "median". I’ve checked Dean Knuth’s web site just to make sure the onset of old age hasn’t been flippin’ my brain around. Excerpt from Dean Knuth’s web site, http://www.popeofslope.com: "USGA Slope Ratings range from a high of 152 for Pine Valley Golf Club down to 55 for very short executive length golf courses. Approximately 50% of golf courses rated by the USGA have Slope Ratings between 100 and 120. After the USGA Slope Ratings have been determined by a rating team, each golfer’s handicap is converted to a decimal USGA Handicap Index, which is the handicap that would be developed by always playing an average Slope course (113) such as ‘Perfect Valley.’…" The interesting things I saw in this were "50% of golf courses…between 100 and 120" and "average Slope course (113)". So, I guess my menory is still okay. FWIW, it seems very logical to me that this 113 average will increase over time. I see nicer courses being built all the time and the goat ranches are bulldozed for housing developments, not the other way around. Also FWIW, here is New Brunswick (not exactly an economic powerhouse) we have a lot of 113 Sloped courses. They are the older courses, typically 6000 yards or so. While we are getting some nice, new ones here, the older ones still exist and are the only course in town in many cases. A third FWIW, I have observed some unusually high ratings in the US that were undoubtedly used as marketing tools. Though most seem fine, I’ve thought some resorts were rated high and even courses in some geographic areas. Bruce http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
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Without information about your course, Dean, it is difficult to help you. I can say, however, that the US average Slope is 113. If your course is of average difficulty, perhaps this is close.
Do you think it’s an actual average of all courses, or simply a baseline "median" number? It seems to me virtually every course I play has a rating of at least 113.
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rec.sport.golf with his/her presence, and uttered…..: I aksed this question in a previous thread, but thought I would post it fresh in case someone with some thoughts on the question missed it. What would be considered a general slope rating. I want to enter some scores and see the comparison between my hc using the US systems and our Aus system, but I have no idea what a slope rating for my course would be. If it helps, my course is par 71 with an ACR (Australian Course Rating) of 71. Any info would help. Dean Gough
Dean, which CR system are you guys using? the system based on the scores received for the day (CCR)? or the fixed method (CR or SSS)? We’ve (New Zealand) just recently jumped over to the Slope Rating (SR) system from the CCR system (which we only used for a couple of years). But prior to that, we used the CR/SSS system for AGES. Seems to me, that the old SSS’s for the courses (not from the CCR system) were/are pretty damn close to the new rated CR’s. As for the SR’s, you’ll have to go on gut feel a little here, but 113 is the SR for an ‘average’ course, so you’ll have to move that up or down. And to give you some indication, I’ll give you the run down on a good range of a couple of our local courses: Trentham Camp GC (my ‘home’ club): SR 115, CR 68.2, 5371m, Par 71. 5 par 3’s (127m, 138m, 172m, 175m and 183m), 4 par 5’s (444m, 472m, 479m and 515m) and 9 par 4’s (regrettably, the let the course down, as most are drive and pitch holes). OB on 10 holes (mostly left), water on 12 holes (only 3 forced carries). Tree-lined with average fairway width at 250m of about 25m’s. Usually windy as hell. Te Marua GC: SR 117, CR 70.4, 5813m, Par 71. 5 par 3’s (130m, 139m, 161m, 181m and 199m), 4 par 5’s (424m, 466m, 468m and 472m) and 9 par 4’s (298m, 343m, 346m, 349m, 353m, 356m, 362m, 370m and 396m). OB on 7 holes, water on 3 holes (only 1 forced carry, but it’s a killer). Tree-lined with average fairway width at 250m of about 29m’s. Heretaunga (Wellington GC): SR 119, CR 71.8, 6191m, Par 72. 4 par 3’s (143m, 160m, 164m and 173m), 4 par 5’s (443m, 499m, 510m and 518m) and 10 par 4’s (285m, 305m, 328m, 351m, 374m, 377m, 377m, 378m, 389m and 417m). OB on 3 holes, water on 5 holes (4 forced carries). Execessively tree-lined with average fairway width at 250m of about 30m’s. Hope that helps you out a little with your calculations. Sorry about the metric measurements for you Imperial type! — Mad’Doug Trentham Camp GC, New Zealand RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stokesd.htm
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Thanks All. I’ll give 125 a go. I know it will never be exact, but I was wondering how your system worked as opposed to ours in Australia. Dean Gough
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I aksed this question in a previous thread, but thought I would post it fresh in case someone with some thoughts on the question missed it. What would be considered a general slope rating. I want to enter some scores and see the comparison between my hc using the US systems and our Aus system, but I have no idea what a slope rating for my course would be. If it helps, my course is par 71 with an ACR (Australian Course Rating) of 71. Any info would help. Without information about your course, Dean, it is difficult to help you. I can say, however, that the US average Slope is 113. If your course is of average difficulty, perhaps this is close. Technically… I think 113 is the "standard" by which all courses are measured. My experience is the typical slope seems to be maybe 125 from standard men’s tees. I would think the average is closer to the typical than the standard… but I could very well be wrong.
You could be right, Dudley, although Dean Knith told me it was the _average_ Slope in the US. Granted, this was a few years ago now and things might have changed. One thing I doubt very much is an average Slope of 125 (or so). Being avid golfers, we probably just play better courses but, believe me, I’ve rated some goat ranches! Bruce http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I aksed this question in a previous thread, but thought I would post it fresh in case someone with some thoughts on the question missed it. What would be considered a general slope rating. I want to enter some scores and see the comparison between my hc using the US systems and our Aus system, but I have no idea what a slope rating for my course would be. If it helps, my course is par 71 with an ACR (Australian Course Rating) of 71. Any info would help. Without information about your course, Dean, it is difficult to help you. I can say, however, that the US average Slope is 113. If your course is of average difficulty, perhaps this is close.
Technically… I think 113 is the "standard" by which all courses are measured. My experience is the typical slope seems to be maybe 125 from standard men’s tees. I would think the average is closer to the typical than the standard… but I could very well be wrong. dsc
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I aksed this question in a previous thread, but thought I would post it fresh in case someone with some thoughts on the question missed it. What would be considered a general slope rating. I want to enter some scores and see the comparison between my hc using the US systems and our Aus system, but I have no idea what a slope rating for my course would be. If it helps, my course is par 71 with an ACR (Australian Course Rating) of 71. Any info would help.
Without information about your course, Dean, it is difficult to help you. I can say, however, that the US average Slope is 113. If your course is of average difficulty, perhaps this is close. The USGA also assigns temporary course ratings for new or renovated courses for use until the rating team formally rates the course. You might consider these: Men: scratch yardage rating = (effective playing length/220) = 40.9 You can find more info at http://www.usga.org/handicap/index.html Bruce http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
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Something weird is happening over here. I thought the original message didn’t get posted because my computer disconnected from the internet as I clicked send. Sorry about the double up. Also I use Intelligolf and have so far input 8 rounds. It gives me a hc of 7. My actual is 11.4. I do like the sound of 7 though. Maybe I’ll try for that. Dean "Computer Genius" Gough
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Dean, go to www.popeofslope.com you should find the answer to your question.
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says… I aksed this question in a previous thread, but thought I would post it fresh in case someone with some thoughts on the question missed it. What would be considered a general slope rating. I want to enter some scores and see the comparison between my hc using the US systems and our Aus system, but I have no idea what a slope rating for my course would be. If it helps, my course is par 71 with an ACR (Australian Course Rating) of 71. Any info would help. Dean Gough
Dean, There’s not really an answer to your question. There’s a rating procedure that is followed to rate a course for slope and that’s the only way to really get the slope rating. This is from the USGA: Slope Rating USGA Slope Rating is the USGA’s mark that indicates the measurement of the relative difficulty of a course for players who are not scratch golfers compared to the Course Rating (i.e. compared to the difficulty of the course for scratch golfers). The lowest Slope Rating is 55, and the highest is 155. A golf course of standard playing difficulty has a USGA Slope Rating of 113. (See Section 13.) Also, The USGA Slope Rating for a course of standard difficulty is 113. A course is given this Slope Rating when the difference between the Bogey Rating and Course That being said, I almost never run across a course where the slope is around 113. Most places I play, the slope runs between 120 and 130 from the regular men’s tees. It can be 5 or 6 more from the tips. I have two "home courses". Here’s their ratings. Maybe that will help you pick a number to play with: Type Yard. Rating Slope Par Champ : 6709 73.1 141 72 Men : 6205 70.5 128 72 Senior: 5612 67.9 119 72 Ladies: 4837 69.9 118 72 Tees Yardage Rating Slope Par Back 6668 72.5 127 72 Men 6396 70.2 122 72 Ladies 5157 70.3 116 72 Kenny — Kenny Stultz RSG Rollcall: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/stultzk.htm
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I’m looking to compare my current hc to that which might be issued in the US (just for interest sake). I know Aus and US use quite different systems so I would like to see the difference. Big problem. I don’t understand the slope rating system and would have no idea what it would be for my course. If someone could tell me what an average rating would be I would much appreciate it. If it helps my course has a par of 71 and an ACR (Australian Course Rating) of 71. Any help would be appreciated. Dean Gough
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I aksed this question in a previous thread, but thought I would post it fresh in case someone with some thoughts on the question missed it. What would be considered a general slope rating. I want to enter some scores and see the comparison between my hc using the US systems and our Aus system, but I have no idea what a slope rating for my course would be. If it helps, my course is par 71 with an ACR (Australian Course Rating) of 71. Any info would help. Dean Gough