Question:
QUOTE Jack (not *that* Jack, *this* one) UNQUOTE Is Nicklaus posting here again? 
Good Shooting, Jack Miller (The One and Only. See there is a God. Thank him for this not small favor ;-)
Response:
writes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I suspect this book won’t be available in the UK for a while. If you have a moment I would be very keen to learn which courses, if any, he features in France. G de Chantilly in Chantilly. Designed by J.F. Abercromby and revised by Tom Simpson. Rating: 6 G de Hardelot in Hardelot. Designed by Tom Simpson. Rating: 5 G de Morfontaine in Senlis. Designed by Tom Simpson. Rating: 7 GC du Touquet in Le Touquet. Mer course by H.S. Colt with revisions by Mackenzie Ross. Rating: 5 He mentions courses he wants to play: Near Paris: St. Germain Fountainebleau St. Cloud South: Hossegor Chantaco Chiberta-Biarritz Les Bordes Seignosse Golf du Medoc
Thanks for posting these. You said in your review that some of his research was dated, and he does omit Golf National, on the edge of Paris. If anyone is likely to be in that area this is an incredible creation, in the middle of an industrial park and built entirely out of spoil from motorway construction as a home to the French PGA. Sounds unpromising, but a pro I sent there recently told me it was the best course he had ever played, without question. The fairways are mounded stadium style, and much of the time it feels a lot like a links, with shaggy rough to swallow an errant drive. Easy access and rarely busy, not too expensive either. I think his review of Hardelot is a little low – a classic Surrey type of course, Seignosse I would put very high on his "to play" list, and I would add St Jean de Monts for a truly wonderful mix of parkland and links – two doses of each in eighteen holes, kept in perfect condition, and less than $30. (I’m spending next week there) BTW Truly awesome itinerary! I look forward to reading your account, and I’ll be looking for the very sun / wind burnt man at The Open. A little ambitious, but heck they’ll be plenty of time to sleep when I’m dead.
That’s what I tell my pals when they protest about 36 holes a day on our golf trips. That and a reading of Wodehouse, which makes clear that "a day’s golf" is *three* rounds, and no carts. (I am confident you are well versed in his writings on golf!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dan King One month from today: Tuesday July 9th Western Gailies, Troon, Prestwick or Turnberry Read the semi-nightly journals "Scotland on my Mind" at http://www.golfweb.com Most of the boom courses are undoubtedly terrible, because anybody who knows anything about golf in France is trying to cash in on the boom as a course designer. –Tom Doak (in "The Confidential Guide To Golf Courses" on new courses in France)
to which I would add – you can forgive a course a lot flaws if there’s not another soul on it, and there’s a great lunch waiting for you in the clubhouse! PS Dan were you aware that Western gailes hosted the British PGA back in, I think ‘64? It’s not well-known but viewed with great affection and respect, though I haven’t played there myself — Jon Cockerill http://www.golfnet.co.uk/shop/travel/welcome.html "The Touring Golfer"
Response:
I suspect this book won’t be available in the UK for a while. If you have a moment I would be very keen to learn which courses, if any, he features in France.
G de Chantilly in Chantilly. Designed by J.F. Abercromby and revised by Tom Simpson. Rating: 6 G de Hardelot in Hardelot. Designed by Tom Simpson. Rating: 5 G de Morfontaine in Senlis. Designed by Tom Simpson. Rating: 7 GC du Touquet in Le Touquet. Mer course by H.S. Colt with revisions by Mackenzie Ross. Rating: 5 He mentions courses he wants to play: Near Paris: St. Germain Fountainebleau St. Cloud South: Hossegor Chantaco Chiberta-Biarritz Les Bordes Seignosse Golf du Medoc BTW Truly awesome itinerary! I look forward to reading your account, and I’ll be looking for the very sun / wind burnt man at The Open.
A little ambitious, but heck they’ll be plenty of time to sleep when I’m dead. Dan King One month from today: Tuesday July 9th Western Gailies, Troon, Prestwick or Turnberry Read the semi-nightly journals "Scotland on my Mind" at http://www.golfweb.com Most of the boom courses are undoubtedly terrible, because anybody who knows anything about golf in France is trying to cash in on the boom as a course designer. –Tom Doak (in "The Confidential Guide To Golf Courses" on new courses in France)
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m rating my reviews on a scale of 10-over to 10-under, with par being an average book, and 10-under being a book every golfer should own (IMHO). Anything over par, I would consider not worth purchasing. Title: The Confidential Guide to Golf Courses Author: Tom Doak Publisher: Sleeping Bear Press, 1996 ISBN: 1-886947-09-0 List Price: $45.00 US Rating: 9-over Tom Doak’s Confidential Guide to Golf Courses has been a well known secret for quite a few years. It started out as a xerox copy of notes he kept on all the courses he has played. He would make copies and share with his friends. in 1994 his own architect company published 1,000 copies and put a small add in Golf Magazine, selling each copy for $100. I bought one of those and it was about the best C-note I ever spent. I’m almost always amazed after playing a course how much I agree with Doak. Nowhere near %100 of the time, but at least close to %80 or %85 of the time. Now Sleeping Bear Press has taken his little self-published book and published it. They’ve done a great job, cleaning up some of the typos and misspellings and adding some great pictures. I’ve skimmed through the Sleeping Bear edition, and I haven’t seen any major differences between the commentary of the two books. If you already have his self-published book, there isn’t anything really new here, just prettier. There is a new Introduction, but the rating scale is the same and his Gourmet’s Choice; 31 Favorite courses are the same. His Gossip sections, where he’s mentioned courses in the area he hasn’t played, but plans to haven’t really changed. That can either means he isn’t golfing much anymore or he didn’t bother updating. However, he did actually play SandHills where in his original edition it made it to the Gourmet’s Choice without ever being played. Doak went with 31 favorites because that was the same number used by "two great philosophers of our age, Baskins and Robbins, who decreed that 31 flavors was just enough variety for the true gourmet." Some of his top-31 are surprising. No Augusta National, No Cypress Point, No Pebble Beach and No Muirfield. Some of this was because he went with only one course on this list per designer. So Crystal Downs wins out over Cypress, Augusta and Royal Melbourne. Tom Doak doesn’t hold back. He at time seems overly aggressive with the sons of his former employer, Pete Dye. He didn’t like Hunter Ranch, one of my favorite courses, and it seemed primarily because the course was designed by a developer and a professional rather than by someone from his own profession. I loved his description of Edgewood, Lake Tahoe, a course I despise: "One of the most overrated golf courses I’ve ever seen. The landscape is breathtaking, close to the lakeshore, and mostly covered by towering pines: but it’s not particularly conductive to golf, because the trees branch up so high that effectively they play like telephone poles, and the shores of the lake curve so imperceptibly that it doesn’t make for interesting holes along it’s border. The 17th and 18th holes are drastically overrated, and there aren’t any sleepers to make up for them. I can’t believe this has been rated in the Top 100 courses in America 4. [10/86]" The number 4 at the end is his ranking he gives the course and the date is the last time he played it. He rates courses from 1-10 depending on how he would advise his friends to go out of their way to play a course. A 10 is something you should book a trip today just to go play, a 9 is a course you should play sometime in your life, an 8 is a course you should definitely play if your in the area, etc… A 0 is a course "so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind." He’s not afraid to go against conventional wisdom. "Royal Melbourne, I think, is the course Augusta wants to be: wide enough for anybody, but brilliantly routed to make use of the topography and bunkered to reward bold play and bold decisions." Not many critics are willing to favorably compare a course against Augusta National. He rates 900 courses, all over the world. The only area that appears seriously unrepresented is Latin America. (Since he was born and raised and still lives in the U.S., there are significantly more U.S. courses) He has a definite preference for certain designers (A big Alister MacKenzie fan). For anyone that travels with their sticks, this book is a must. Even if you don’t it’s a very enjoyable read. The last part of the book is the Tom Doak Gazetteer. Here he ranks top-10 in such areas as: Most Beautiful Clubhouses-Architecture Most Beautiful Clubhouses-Setting Best Halfway House Best Walks Most Difficult walks Best Lunch Best Entrance Drive Best Logo Courses Worth Groveling to Play "Dumb Blonde" awards – Pretty But Lacking Substance "Sleeping Beauty" awards – More than Meets the Eye. Most Fun to Play Courses I’d never Play again Hardest Back-to-Back Holes Scorecard Oddities Best Par-3s; Best Par-4s; Best Par-5s; Best Short Par-4s Best Bunkering etc… I used his self-published book to plan out much of my itinerary for my up-coming trip to Scotland. I’ll be playing 3 of his 31 flavor Gourmet Choice: St. Andrews, Royal Dornoch and North Berwick. Also the cover has a picture of Cruden Bay, which I’m also playing a time or two (Cruden would have made the top-31, but he couldn’t put it ahead of Tom Simpson’s Ballybunion). Dan King One month from today: Saturday July 6th Machrihanish or others in proximity such as Machrie or Donaverty) Read the semi-nightly journals of my trip to Scotland at http://www.golfweb.com Until recently, all I had to do to get a look around a golf course was walk in the front door and tell them I worked for Pete Dye. But in Northern California, that approach only gets you a look of sympathy. because the only Pete Dye course they’re familiar with is Carmel Valley Ranch, the most preposterous course Peter ever built. –Tom Doak
Dan, Unless I’m missing something, you seem to like this book. Yet, according to your rating system and to the rating it gets, one should run away from the book, literally! (9-over!). Regards, J.C. Babin
Response:
writes He rates 900 courses, all over the world.
I suspect this book won’t be available in the UK for a while. If you have a moment I would be very keen to learn which courses, if any, he features in France. BTW Truly awesome itinerary! I look forward to reading your account, and I’ll be looking for the very sun / wind burnt man at The Open. — Jon Cockerill http://www.golfnet.co.uk/shop/travel/welcome.html "The Touring Golfer"
Response:
dk Rating: 9-over jpSo Dan, since you appeared to like the book jpso much, I presume you meant to give it 9-under, jpnot 9-over. jpOr did I miss something buried deep between the lines? Umm, I was just checking to see if people were still reading these reviews. Yeah, that’s right, that’s the ticket. I’d rate "The Confidential Guide to Golf Courses" by Tom Doak a 9-under. Dan King One month from today: One month from today: Sunday June 7th Machrihanish or others in proximity such as Machrie or Donaverty) Read the semi-nightly journals of my trip to Scotland at http://www.golfweb.com Now on the pot, Johnny Tee. –Los Angeles Open Announcer (1965, screwing up the introduction.)
Response:
writes: | I’m rating my reviews on a scale of 10-over to 10-under, with par | being an average book, and 10-under being a book every golfer should | own (IMHO). Anything over par, I would consider not worth purchasing. | | Title: The Confidential Guide to Golf Courses | Author: Tom Doak | Publisher: Sleeping Bear Press, 1996 | ISBN: 1-886947-09-0 | List Price: $45.00 US | Rating: 9-over ^^^^^^ [apparently rave review snipped] So Dan, since you appeared to like the book so much, I presume you meant to give it 9-under, not 9-over. Or did I miss something buried deep between the lines? Jack (not *that* Jack, *this* one)
Response:
: I’m rating my reviews on a scale of 10-over to 10-under, with par : being an average book, and 10-under being a book every golfer should : own (IMHO). Anything over par, I would consider not worth purchasing. : Title: The Confidential Guide to Golf Courses : Author: Tom Doak [mostly glowing review deleted] : Rating: 9-over ^^^^^^ Dan, I’d guess you meant to give this book a 9-under ?? Richard Stern
Response:
I’m rating my reviews on a scale of 10-over to 10-under, with par being an average book, and 10-under being a book every golfer should own (IMHO). Anything over par, I would consider not worth purchasing. Title: The Confidential Guide to Golf Courses Author: Tom Doak Publisher: Sleeping Bear Press, 1996 ISBN: 1-886947-09-0 List Price: $45.00 US Rating: 9-over Tom Doak’s Confidential Guide to Golf Courses has been a well known secret for quite a few years. It started out as a xerox copy of notes he kept on all the courses he has played. He would make copies and share with his friends. in 1994 his own architect company published 1,000 copies and put a small add in Golf Magazine, selling each copy for $100. I bought one of those and it was about the best C-note I ever spent. I’m almost always amazed after playing a course how much I agree with Doak. Nowhere near %100 of the time, but at least close to %80 or %85 of the time. Now Sleeping Bear Press has taken his little self-published book and published it. They’ve done a great job, cleaning up some of the typos and misspellings and adding some great pictures. I’ve skimmed through the Sleeping Bear edition, and I haven’t seen any major differences between the commentary of the two books. If you already have his self-published book, there isn’t anything really new here, just prettier. There is a new Introduction, but the rating scale is the same and his Gourmet’s Choice; 31 Favorite courses are the same. His Gossip sections, where he’s mentioned courses in the area he hasn’t played, but plans to haven’t really changed. That can either means he isn’t golfing much anymore or he didn’t bother updating. However, he did actually play SandHills where in his original edition it made it to the Gourmet’s Choice without ever being played. Doak went with 31 favorites because that was the same number used by "two great philosophers of our age, Baskins and Robbins, who decreed that 31 flavors was just enough variety for the true gourmet." Some of his top-31 are surprising. No Augusta National, No Cypress Point, No Pebble Beach and No Muirfield. Some of this was because he went with only one course on this list per designer. So Crystal Downs wins out over Cypress, Augusta and Royal Melbourne. Tom Doak doesn’t hold back. He at time seems overly aggressive with the sons of his former employer, Pete Dye. He didn’t like Hunter Ranch, one of my favorite courses, and it seemed primarily because the course was designed by a developer and a professional rather than by someone from his own profession. I loved his description of Edgewood, Lake Tahoe, a course I despise: "One of the most overrated golf courses I’ve ever seen. The landscape is breathtaking, close to the lakeshore, and mostly covered by towering pines: but it’s not particularly conductive to golf, because the trees branch up so high that effectively they play like telephone poles, and the shores of the lake curve so imperceptibly that it doesn’t make for interesting holes along it’s border. The 17th and 18th holes are drastically overrated, and there aren’t any sleepers to make up for them. I can’t believe this has been rated in the Top 100 courses in America 4. [10/86]" The number 4 at the end is his ranking he gives the course and the date is the last time he played it. He rates courses from 1-10 depending on how he would advise his friends to go out of their way to play a course. A 10 is something you should book a trip today just to go play, a 9 is a course you should play sometime in your life, an 8 is a course you should definitely play if your in the area, etc… A 0 is a course "so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind." He’s not afraid to go against conventional wisdom. "Royal Melbourne, I think, is the course Augusta wants to be: wide enough for anybody, but brilliantly routed to make use of the topography and bunkered to reward bold play and bold decisions." Not many critics are willing to favorably compare a course against Augusta National. He rates 900 courses, all over the world. The only area that appears seriously unrepresented is Latin America. (Since he was born and raised and still lives in the U.S., there are significantly more U.S. courses) He has a definite preference for certain designers (A big Alister MacKenzie fan). For anyone that travels with their sticks, this book is a must. Even if you don’t it’s a very enjoyable read. The last part of the book is the Tom Doak Gazetteer. Here he ranks top-10 in such areas as: Most Beautiful Clubhouses-Architecture Most Beautiful Clubhouses-Setting Best Halfway House Best Walks Most Difficult walks Best Lunch Best Entrance Drive Best Logo Courses Worth Groveling to Play "Dumb Blonde" awards – Pretty But Lacking Substance "Sleeping Beauty" awards – More than Meets the Eye. Most Fun to Play Courses I’d never Play again Hardest Back-to-Back Holes Scorecard Oddities Best Par-3s; Best Par-4s; Best Par-5s; Best Short Par-4s Best Bunkering etc… I used his self-published book to plan out much of my itinerary for my up-coming trip to Scotland. I’ll be playing 3 of his 31 flavor Gourmet Choice: St. Andrews, Royal Dornoch and North Berwick. Also the cover has a picture of Cruden Bay, which I’m also playing a time or two (Cruden would have made the top-31, but he couldn’t put it ahead of Tom Simpson’s Ballybunion). Dan King One month from today: Saturday July 6th Machrihanish or others in proximity such as Machrie or Donaverty) Read the semi-nightly journals of my trip to Scotland at http://www.golfweb.com Until recently, all I had to do to get a look around a golf course was walk in the front door and tell them I worked for Pete Dye. But in Northern California, that approach only gets you a look of sympathy. because the only Pete Dye course they’re familiar with is Carmel Valley Ranch, the most preposterous course Peter ever built. –Tom Doak