Question:
Seems to me that the ability to teach is far more important than the ability to play. There are lots of very good male and female teaching pros who can’t play tournament golf. I know one good full swing teaching pro who can’t putt for shit.
I agree that teaching ability is necessary, I didn’t mean to imply that being a good player was the sole requirement. However, I take golf lessons to learn the whole game not just to learn a golf swing. So I really want someone who has a) teaching ability, b) well-rounded golf skills and c) knows how to play well. In my area, there are several teachers available who have both teaching ability and are good players. So there’s no need to settle for one or the other. Maybe we’re just fortunate around here and in other places you can’t be so picky choosing a teaching pro. Brent Hutto
Response:
Seems to me that the ability to teach is far more important than the ability to play. There are lots of very good male and female teaching pros who can’t play tournament golf. I know one good full swing teaching pro who can’t putt for shit.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wouldn’t take golf lessons from anyone who can’t play golf at a pretty high level. By that I mean shooting around par on a tough course when there’s a week’s pay on the line. However, a person could be solidly at that level and still not have a chance in hell of ever making a check on the BUY.COM tour, must less earning a living on the big Tour.
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play?
First off, it’s "PGA Tour", the phrase "playing the PGA" doesn’t parse. And surely you realize there’s a huge difference between "can’t be an exempt player on the PGA Tour" and "can’t play". I wouldn’t take golf lessons from anyone who can’t play golf at a pretty high level. By that I mean shooting around par on a tough course when there’s a week’s pay on the line. However, a person could be solidly at that level and still not have a chance in hell of ever making a check on the BUY.COM tour, must less earning a living on the big Tour. Next point. There could certainly be someone with the game to possibly make a living playing Tour golf but who would rather sleep at home with their wife and kids every night, especially once they get to their 40’s and 50’s. Likewise, there might be people who genuinely like to teach. Don’t assume that career choices entirely reflect playing ability. Final point. Looking at a magazine’s "Top 100" list of teachers isn’t a particularly valid way to finding the 100 most capable teachers in the world. However, the top 100 on the PGA Tour money list is a pretty fair approximation to the 100 best stroke-play golfers in the world. So it’s not useful to compare being on a magazine’s teacher list with similar rankings on the PGA Tour money list. Brent Hutto
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Are they the medical College proffesors who don’t make it to private practice? Nope… Just can’t handle PRESSURE, media EXPOSURE and not able to accept anal opinions from the media…and RSG members Actually, the guys can really play. Ledbetter played on the European PGA Tour. I believe Harmon play a while on the PGA Tour. McClean played on a National Championship NCAA Team. Thats pretty good golf. Even my instructor, a Top 100 listed guy, was an All American in College. Obviously if a guy is good enough to be Top 11 in the world, the money is better to play. But if you are a notch below that, a good teacher can make really good money. My teacher has a Nike deal, and a Dell endorsment contract as a teacher. Add to that all of the schools, lessons, etc, and the money is good. And he can play. We’ve played many times and the worst he has shot with me was a 73 on a 7100 yd course. Brad Brad, I agree, many teachers are very good players. I’ve also played with a few and played with a few touring pros. But, the fact is that there is a reason why they’re not on the tour if they have game… I don’t know of any instructors I’ve met or played with that didn’t really want to be on tour. IMO, Great instructors are great for a reason… Ledbetter and Harmon along with others left the tour for a clear cut reason in their head and found teaching easier… Playing you or I is easy for them…playing for big bucks, contending with the media and critical pressures can make a game go south really fast.
First–I miss typed at meant that –" if one is not top 100–then the money in teacing may be better" My teacher has told me that "he wishes he knew when he played what he knows now". I don’t know if all teachers really wished they were playing for money. One local guy here who I know very well –and he has been awarded 2 Section of the Year Awards for Teacher of the Year, told me he simply didn’t have the nerves to stand over big money putts. He said that when he was putting to make a cut or to get a top finish, he just didn’t have the peace of mind for it. He’s really quite successful as a teacher. My own teacher makes well into the the mid 6-figures as a teacher. He has endorsments from Nike and Dell, he has had many cover stories for Golf Digest and he gets to go home at night to see his two kids and dog. That isn’t bad. He probably makes 250K a year. Not bad. He’d have to be a top 150 guy in the world to beat it on tour, then he’s also have to deal with the travel and travel costs as well. Wouldn’t be surprised if he made a run for the Sr Tour in a few years though. Brad
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Are they the medical College proffesors who don’t make it to private practice? Nope… Just can’t handle PRESSURE, media EXPOSURE and not able to accept anal opinions from the media…and RSG members Actually, the guys can really play. Ledbetter played on the European PGA Tour. I believe Harmon play a while on the PGA Tour. McClean played on a National Championship NCAA Team. Thats pretty good golf. Even my instructor, a Top 100 listed guy, was an All American in College. Obviously if a guy is good enough to be Top 11 in the world, the money is better to play. But if you are a notch below that, a good teacher can make really good money. My teacher has a Nike deal, and a Dell endorsment contract as a teacher. Add to that all of the schools, lessons, etc, and the money is good. And he can play. We’ve played many times and the worst he has shot with me was a 73 on a 7100 yd course. Brad
Brad, I agree, many teachers are very good players. I’ve also played with a few and played with a few touring pros. But, the fact is that there is a reason why they’re not on the tour if they have game… I don’t know of any instructors I’ve met or played with that didn’t really want to be on tour. IMO, Great instructors are great for a reason… Ledbetter and Harmon along with others left the tour for a clear cut reason in their head and found teaching easier… Playing you or I is easy for them…playing for big bucks, contending with the media and critical pressures can make a game go south really fast.
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Are they the medical College proffesors who don’t make it to private practice?
I don’t think so. The human body is a complex system. I feel that a basic golf swing is quite the opposite – incredibly simple, even though the movement does not come naturally to the vast majority of people. I feel it is incredibly easy to teach too (though incredibly easy to complicate).
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Many great instructors have both the ability to teach and the ability to demonstrate. Whether guys like Butch Harmon or Johnny Miller could compete on the senior tour now isn’t that critical. As we know, the ability to sink putts and get up & down is the dividing line between tour players and otherwise great players. Lee Trevino’s oft repeated remark, "I’d take lessons if the instructor could beat me" is ‘ostrich logic’ at best. Maybe, with early lessons, Lee could have been straighter and longer than he was; add his wedge game and putting skill and Lee might have won many more times than he did. There is no substitute for good instruction. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play?
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Are they the medical College proffesors who don’t make it to private practice? Nope… Just can’t handle PRESSURE, media EXPOSURE and not able to accept anal opinions from the media…and RSG members
Actually, the guys can really play. Ledbetter played on the European PGA Tour. I believe Harmon play a while on the PGA Tour. McClean played on a National Championship NCAA Team. Thats pretty good golf. Even my instructor, a Top 100 listed guy, was an All American in College. Obviously if a guy is good enough to be Top 11 in the world, the money is better to play. But if you are a notch below that, a good teacher can make really good money. My teacher has a Nike deal, and a Dell endorsment contract as a teacher. Add to that all of the schools, lessons, etc, and the money is good. And he can play. We’ve played many times and the worst he has shot with me was a 73 on a 7100 yd course. Brad
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Are they the medical College proffesors who don’t make it to private practice?
Nope… Just can’t handle PRESSURE, media EXPOSURE and not able to accept anal opinions from the media…and RSG members
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play?
A guy like Butch Harmon may have the head knowledge but not the physical ability to execute it on the level of the PGA tour. At the level of the PGA tour, most of the players have the physical skills but maybe not the emotional and mental toughness. Look at the guy with the 2 shot lead at the Canadian Open. He said he was very nervous and choked. For some it’s strategy or playing it smart (Norman, Van de Velde, etc.).
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Tiger plays about two tournaments a month ( 15 this year) and made $5.5 million. At $1000 an hour, that’s 2 1/2 years of forty hour weeks. Would you play tournaments or teach at the local goat track?
If the original question was about "top 100 golf instructors" I don’t think teaching at the local goat track has a lot to do with it. No one was suggesting that they could equal Tiger’s take home pay, but they certainly could if their alternative was struggling to stay in the top 125 money winners for the year and maintain their exemption. The original comparison to medical college professors wasn’t all that good either. Just because you make more money in private practice (unless of course you are a top guy who has patent money rolling in) doesn’t mean all the best people go to private practice and those teaching in medical schools are all second rate. — A good friend will help you move, a true friend will help you move a body.
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From my readings from Hogan & Woods, hands down Woods’ instructions & tips are far more generic and useful to an average golfer than Hogan’s. Hogan more/less explained what allowed him to become a great golfer – though most golfers without a hook pre-disposition following Hogan’s grip & swing advice would become big time slicers. Woods has had a golden opportunity to be coached by many of the game’s best from an early age. That, coupled with a great physique and natural talent has allowed him to really learn the game. Barring injury or loss of interest, he should be a top player for a LONG time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyway, I didn’t say Tiger would be better off teaching, I’m saying that just because Tiger is a great player doesn’t mean he can’t teach. (Although, it’s fairly well documented that Hogan wasn’t a very good teacher.)
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Now you know why top posting is bad. Can’t follow the quoted messages anymore. Anyway, I didn’t say Tiger would be better off teaching, I’m saying that just because Tiger is a great player doesn’t mean he can’t teach. (Although, it’s fairly well documented that Hogan wasn’t a very good teacher.)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tiger plays about two tournaments a month ( 15 this year) and made $5.5 million. At $1000 an hour, that’s 2 1/2 years of forty hour weeks. Would you play tournaments or teach at the local goat track? What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? By the way, why not think of the alternative? Why could Hogan play, but not teach? Why can’t Tiger Woods teach?
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Believe it or not, "Action Jackson" was a much better player than he was given credit for with the Knicks. Unfortunately he just played with Reed, Frazier, and DeBusschere. He looked pretty goofy too with a big white mans afro. I case you don’t know who "Action Jackson" is… Phil Jackson! What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Teaching and playing aren’t the same skills. How often do superstar athletes make the best coaches/teachers in any sport?
Jim Childress
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play?
By the way, why not think of the alternative? Why could Hogan play, but not teach? Why can’t Tiger Woods teach?
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Tiger plays about two tournaments a month ( 15 this year) and made $5.5 million. At $1000 an hour, that’s 2 1/2 years of forty hour weeks. Would you play tournaments or teach at the local goat track?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? By the way, why not think of the alternative? Why could Hogan play, but not teach? Why can’t Tiger Woods teach?
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Are they the medical College proffesors who don’t make it to private practice?
The top teachers you spoke of make way more guaranteed money than they would playing from week to week on the Tour. It’s another level on Tour. tim
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play?
He used to play. Teaching and playing are 2 different skills. Is this a major revelation? Are they the medical College proffesors who don’t make it to private practice?
Most college professors are not in private practice. Private practice is a full time job, and teaching is a full time job. Think about it for about 5 seconds and you’ll realize the 2 professions are different. That’s why they have different names.
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play?
Teaching and playing aren’t the same skills. How often do superstar athletes make the best coaches/teachers in any sport?
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As stated well in previous posts, there are different skills involved. However, as a student I want to know that my teacher can play and that he or she is on the same wavelength. There’s so much more to this game than just teaching a solid swing. My teacher is a +2 and he qualified to play in the Byron Nelson this year. He is a Head Golf Professional and only gets to play once or twice a week on average–he chose this career over the tour for many reasons, but he likely could have made it. He wins events in his PGA section and he works with Rich Beem. I see him four or five times a year which is plenty for me–I now have a 6.7 index which I never thought I’d achieve a couple of years ago. One of the things he said to me this year is everyone gets nervous to some extent, but people have different levels of enjoyment in dealing with that nervousness. This simple observation has stuck with me when I get to #17 with water all the way down the left and I’m in the running to win the bet on the back or total. It puts a whole new perspective on it for me–and I now enjoy it more. And I know he’s talking from long experience, he’s played since he was 4 and his Dad is a PGA professional. Phil Webster, Founder, cSwing
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Are they the medical College proffesors who don’t make it to private practice?
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The air is very different where the greats live in each profession. I doubt if there ever has been a "great teacher" come out of great tour play.
Tommy Armour (the original, not the III playing the tour now) was reputed to be a great teacher, after he had a pretty good playing career. Nowadays successful tour players make so much money they have little incentive to go into teaching. Too much of a pay cut compared to designing "signature" golf courses for resort developments. — A good friend will help you move, a true friend will help you move a body.
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play?
Why would you expect that the talent for teaching and playing tour caliber golf intersect? To teach, you need to know how the swing works inside and out, you need to have a keen eye to be able to see what works and what doesn’t in another’s swing, and you need to be able to explain it to them in terms they can understand and turn into an improved swing. To play tour caliber golf you need another set of skills, and can actually get by without any of the above skills. I’m sure _most_ tour pros would make halfway decent teachers, and a few might be really good. But there’s surely also a few naturals like Fred Couples may well not have any of them. He’s such a feel player, he may not even know how his _own_ swing works, let alone be able to help someone else with swing problems! I’d expect most golf instructors should be able to play to low single digit range in the absence of physical impairments. Many are probably scratch. But that’s many miles away from the +5 or so you need to hit to play the tour, not even counting the ability to handle pressure to at least get past qualifying school. — A good friend will help you move, a true friend will help you move a body.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Charlie Lau, the man who made George Brett one of the greatest baseball hitters of all time was a lousy hitter himself when he was in the majors. My golf instructor shot scratch golf when he was 13, but never improved beyond that. These guys hit great on the course, but when they get to Q-School finals, they can’t get it done. There are a myriad of examples of those who can teach brilliantly, but cannot and could not do the act themselves. Glarb
Teaching as a "talent," and "playing" with Its required kinds of talent are very different talents at work. Physical coordination, extremely keen eyesight, "nerves of steel", and many of the required innate gifts for PGA tour golf are in a rarified air. So are brilliant teachers. They happen to have insight into how people think, what they need to know, etc. Many great players would teach you what they do, and that might be bad advice for someone else. The air is very different where the greats live in each profession. I doubt if there ever has been a "great teacher" come out of great tour play. YMMV George Hibbard
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What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play? Are they the medical College proffesors who don’t make it to private practice?
Response:
What I mean is, guys like Butch Harmon and the top 100 golf instructors aren’t playing the PGA. Why is this? Can they teach but not play?
Charlie Lau, the man who made George Brett one of the greatest baseball hitters of all time was a lousy hitter himself when he was in the majors. My golf instructor shot scratch golf when he was 13, but never improved beyond that. These guys hit great on the course, but when they get to Q-School finals, they can’t get it done. There are a myriad of examples of those who can teach brilliantly, but cannot and could not do the act themselves. Glarb