Question:
Don, I guess you missed the part where I said ….. "I don’t ever want to see any golf course converted to any other use than golf " I don’t take issue with anything you said, only with your claim to being nice … which, by the way isn’t a requirement, only a "nicety." 
Just this evening, as I was teeing off about 5:00pm, I saw a fifty-something lady in a polyester pant suit out for an evening stroll in the "beautiful park" near her new home. She though it was so pretty and asked me if the paths went all the way round the park. My response was "Yes, they do, but I certainly wouldn’t consider it a very good idea to take a walk them." She was a little puzzled until I explained to her that at any given time there might be upwards of 20-30 people … who would not be expecting her to be in the line of fire … launching small, hard, 2 oz missiles at speeds around100 mph. I told her "This isn’t a park, and taking an evening stroll out here is only somewhat less dangerous than picnicking behind the local rifle range." She got the picture and left. My earlier response to your post was merely to say that I would like non-golfers to appreciate golf courses in the same manner as I appreciate opera houses. I don’t go to opera houses, but I appreciate that they are there for those who want to. (Maybe it helps keep some people off my course … who knows?) That is the extent to which I care about golf course appreciation by non-golfers. After all, there’s more of them than there is of us. I’d like to keep them thinking courses are a good use of land, even if they never use said land. Dave
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, Ok, so I won’t be so nice. May flady’s friends dogs and geese deposit their treasures in your opera house. Let us not forget that a golf course is a place of business – even the muni’s. If flady wishes to make a park out of a course let her buy her own real estate and do as she chooses – commonly known as the "American Way". Perhaps she could buy that old opera house, tear it down and make a nice dog run out of it! – then I bet you will change your mind. Don Lets talk Golf!! At least sensible golf things!! flady color me blue color me – well I’ll be nice! too late, Don, you already weren’t …. nice, that is …. I don’t disagree with you, but I don’t disagree entirely with flady, either. I certainly don’t ever want to see any golf course converted to any other use, but it would be really nice if the non-golfing population could learn to appreciate golf courses in the same manner that I appreciate opera houses! I have little occasion to patronize them, but I believe in my heart that replacing them with McDonalds, Starbucks, or sports facilities(including golf facilities) would diminish the overall quality of life in our country. May your next round be your best round. Dave Holo RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/holod.htm
Response:
The owners of a public nine-hole course got greedy— It was a good nine-hole course. Everybody pretty much liked playing it–had enough challenge, fairly open fairways….Slope of 114 for the white tees, 108 for the red tees. At first, the price was pretty good, compared to the semi-private championship course (slope 128 white tees/ 125 red tees) in town. The price nudged up, still less than the "good" course. It was announced several months ago that an second nine would be added to the 7-year old nine hole course. Soon the bulldozers were much in evidence, and people continued to play–sometimes they’d wonder where they were going to put the other nine…. When questioned, the staff would say that almost every existant hole would be changed in some way–either reverse direction, part of it’s fairway would be used for a different hole–"too hard to explain" Soon we started seeing the mounds that would be clearly a new future green… The course offered 2 senior days, and a large contingent of seniors took advantage of the lower prices. As the new holes started greening up, and a chart of how the new course would be laid out appeared in the pro shop–couldn’t follow it–didn’t make sense. Oh well, everyone was eager to know when the new course could be played. There was talk of a drawing for the first to play the new layout.. Two days ago the course was switched. I played it yesterday solo. I didn’t know holes could be that short. Par 3’s were for women, 70, 82, 85, 110 yds. For men, 146, 97,191, 90, 112. There’s a par 4 for women of 202 yds. There’s 3 par 4 for men in the 260’s. With the exception of one hole, it was like a pitch n putt course. One hole’s second shot most women can’t make the 112-yd carry over the water, with no alternative. The holes are crammed together. Trying to find the next tee—sometimes required going past 2 holes. Women’s new length, 4700, down 300; white tees down 500 yds, 6,000 down to 5500. The owners say they need to raise the prices some more now that it’s an 18, which is already higher than the 18i’s of the nearby city. One guy said, "They got greedy–and tried to make a 18 hole course out of land only large enough for a 9-hole course. I’m not going back." And I’m looking for a new course to be home. I don’t think the course can be fixed-there just is enough room. It was a terrible mistake. flady
Response:
Simple Don wrote; commonly known as the "American Way".
or philistinism.
Response:
The course offered 2 senior days, and a large contingent of seniors took advantage of the lower prices. Two days ago the course was switched. I played it yesterday solo. I didn’t know holes could be that short. Par 3’s were for women, 70, 82, 85, 110 yds. For men, 146, 97,191, 90, 112. There’s a par 4 for women of 202 yds. There’s 3 par 4 for men in the 260’s. Women’s new length, 4700, down 300; white tees down 500 yds, 6,000 down to 5500.
sounds like they tried to make a course for seniors. i would bet that the 3 par 4’s at 260 yards will cause major log jams on the course unless there’s nothing but short-hitting seniors out there. charlie Before you buy.
Response:
<snip sad story about golf course ‘redesign’ I can share your pain. I used to belong to a club just north of Waterloo Ontario. It was an 18-hole, par-64 that followed the Grand River. It had a couple of short holes – par 4’s in the 250-320 yards – but had a 580 yard par-5, and a couple of long par-3’s. Plus, it was pretty narrow, so you really couldn’t hit driver on a lot of holes. You could play the whole thing in about 3 hours, which was great for after-work golf. Then the owners got greedy; they purchased some additional land, got the rights to build some houses, and built *three* nine hole loops, all of which were short and shoe-horned between these houses (which were built in the river’s floodplain; so much for the intelligence of the planners). They tore up the old course for the most part, and turned a really pretty executive course into a poor excuse for a championship course. It’s sad. OtherKevin
Response:
Sounds indeed like someone ruined a decent golf course. While rebuilding a good 9 holer as a way too short and cramped 18 holer is an unusual mutilation, I’ve seen far too many good courses multilated recently for real estate development. A couple of really nice championship courses in the Chicago suburbs, once private clubs, have been sold off and subdivided in recent years and others are under attack. Even where I live out in the country, a wonderful 18 holer had 2 great holes relocated to create a boring but playable hole and one way too narrow to be reasonably playable to accomodate real estate development, and another has OB stakes in what was the fairway to allow some yuppie to have 100 feet of back yard behind his 15 room castle. When people are willing to pay half a million dollars for a modest house on a few thousand square feet of land, it’s pretty hard for a golf course to be competitive economically. If you like golf, hope for a crash in the real estate market -:) — Warren Montgomery Lucent Technologies, Bell Labs Innovations
Response:
I know that when a developer sees a golf course, he sees available land to develop and replace with houses–and lusts for it. I know that *some* (not all) environmentalists see a golf course and see water usage & dangerous chemicals. But I think that it is not too hard a task anymore to point out to the public, "There is a large oasis of green, perhaps the last one in ones’ city, with trees doing their part for the air quality, not only pleasing to the eye, but attractive to migrating geese and other wildlife…and they deserve your support that no one can force to close or be sold off." I wish some arranagement similar to that of St Andrews could be made where the public could use the course for their own use, walk their dogs, use it as a park, on certain days, so they could know as do we, what a treasure a golf course is. flady color me blue
<snip sad story about golf course ‘redesign’ I can share your pain. I used to belong to a club just north of
Waterloo Ontario. It was an 18-hole, par-64 that followed the Grand River. It had a couple of short holes – par 4’s in the 250-320 yards – but had a 580 yard par-5, and a
couple of long par-3’s. Plus, it was pretty narrow, so you really couldn’t hit driver on a lot of holes. You could play the whole thing in about 3 hours, which was great for after-work golf. Then the owners got greedy; they purchased some additional land, got the rights to build some houses, and built *three* nine hole loops, all of which were
short and shoe-horned between these houses (which were built in the river’s floodplain; so much for the intelligence of the planners). They tore up the old course for the
most part, and turned – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a really pretty executive course into a poor excuse for a championship course. It’s sad. OtherKevin
Response:
flady color me blue color me – well I’ll be nice!
too late, Don, you already weren’t …. nice, that is …. I don’t disagree with you, but I don’t disagree entirely with flady, either. I certainly don’t ever want to see any golf course converted to any other use, but it would be really nice if the non-golfing population could learn to appreciate golf courses in the same manner that I appreciate opera houses! I have little occasion to patronize them, but I believe in my heart that replacing them with McDonalds, Starbucks, or sports facilities(including golf facilities) would diminish the overall quality of life in our country. May your next round be your best round. Dave Holo RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/holod.htm
Response:
Dave, Ok, so I won’t be so nice. May flady’s friends dogs and geese deposit their treasures in your opera house. Let us not forget that a golf course is a place of business – even the muni’s. If flady wishes to make a park out of a course let her buy her own real estate and do as she chooses – commonly known as the "American Way". Perhaps she could buy that old opera house, tear it down and make a nice dog run out of it! – then I bet you will change your mind. Don Lets talk Golf!! At least sensible golf things!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – flady color me blue color me – well I’ll be nice! too late, Don, you already weren’t …. nice, that is …. I don’t disagree with you, but I don’t disagree entirely with flady, either. I certainly don’t ever want to see any golf course converted to any other use, but it would be really nice if the non-golfing population could learn to appreciate golf courses in the same manner that I appreciate opera houses! I have little occasion to patronize them, but I believe in my heart that replacing them with McDonalds, Starbucks, or sports facilities(including golf facilities) would diminish the overall quality of life in our country. May your next round be your best round. Dave Holo RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/holod.htm
Response:
I know that when a developer sees a golf course, he sees available land to develop and replace with houses–and lusts for it.
How much money did you risk to develop the project? Not all of them make money you know. Something about free enterprise comes to mind here. I know that *some* (not all) environmentalists see a golf course and see water usage & dangerous chemicals. But I think that it is not too hard a task anymore to point out to the public, "There is a large oasis of green, perhaps the last one in ones’ city, with trees doing their part for the air quality, not only pleasing to the eye, but attractive to migrating geese and other wildlife…and they deserve your support that no one can force to close or be sold off."
That is one of the things I cherish – migrating geese on the course – give me a break! I wish some arranagement similar to that of St Andrews could be made where the public could use the course for their own use, walk their dogs,
And whom do you suggest picks up the dog dodo? Why can’t I walk my horse there? use it as a park,
Who will pick up the trash? Are you going to charge green fees to use the park? on certain days, so they could know as do we,
And what day would you suggest? Most go to a park on the weekend – do you think that would go over real well with the golfers? what a treasure a golf course is.
Yes they are – tell the "others" to take up golf and they will find that out. You are in America – not Scotland. St. Andrews is deep in tradition and that is the way it is – you don’t stand a snowballs chance in getting that to happen in the USA. flady color me blue
color me – well I’ll be nice! Don Lets talk Golf!!