Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t see any reason of keeping this rule (on amateurs and pros). If anyone disagree to this, give a good arguement by using examples from other sports. I think it’s unfair to give a golfer, that has spent ours and ours practicing day in and day out to be the best, an umbrella or a sleeve of balls for a victory in a tournament. First, your request for examples from other sports. I know of no other sport that pays the winners of amateur tournaments. I used to play
Racquetball tournaments have prizes up to $500 for "amateur" classes. Also, many bowling leagues have a cash payout. I think that sports that want to qualify for olympic status may be required to define the difference between professional and amateur. Of course basketball and tennis are notable exceptions. It sure doesn’t bother me that there are rules defining professional and amateur. [ ... ] NCR Corporation Global Partner Labs 17095 Via del Campo ms 9853 San Diego, CA 92127 (619) 485-2052 VoicePlus 440-2052 Morning would be fine if only it would come later in the day. I DON’T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, I would like to hear some of You express your opinion on the following Almost any sport or game exept golf have by now accepted the idea that it is practically impossible to draw the line between an amateur and a professional. John, I agree totaly. I can’t see any reason of keeping this rule. If anyone disagree to this, give a good arguement by using examples from other sports. I think it’s unfair to give a golfer, that has spent ours and ours practicing day in and day out to be the best, an umbrella or a sleeve of balls for a victory in a tournament.
Why should anyone who "has spent ours and ours (hours?) practicing day in and day out to be the best" take part in tournaments with a sleeve of balls as the top prize (and the sort of competition You can expect to go with it), if his only motivation is the value of the prizes? There are several tours with prize money (and real competition) available. Besides it is difficult enough to call penalties on oneself even while playing just for fun. If there was real money involved, there should also be enough officials. Ari Huhtamies Home Page: http://www.sci.fi/~arih
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[about the maybe outdated amateur rule] I think that it is time to let go. I would very much like to see Your thoughts on this
Yes and no. Prizes where handicap is not a factor such as open tournaments and HIO-prizes, let it go. In handicap tournaments or other events where handicap is involved, definitely no. My argument is based on experience, in Sweden we had something called a B-license which allowed an amateur to receive prizes worth more than the Rules limit. The intention was to enable good players to travel around and play tournaments but in the end many mid- to high handicappers had the license causing a huge sandbagging problem. The B-license is now scrapped after complaints from R&A and all former B-licensees are under reinstatement. Just my $0.02 Jan
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I thought I should throw in an opinion too. In a way You all have a point. John seems to pinpoint the habit of putting up prizes not allowed according to the rules. There must be a reason for this. I can find several and they dont have anything common with amateur golf. I myself have enjoyed golf since -58 and have seen the game develop from the old English game to a huge market. We are all part of this. You may like it or You may not but its a fact. Its given us lots of fantastic courses, nice professional golf to watch and new material for those of us who like to try new clubs and balls. At the same time You have the Rule that keeps You Mark, from your Calcutta game and and You John and Jarle from trying your wings without losing Your right to play as before. Seems to me that the governing bodies have let professionalism in for producers of different products and at the same time tries to keep amateur players as that and nothing else. Remember there was a time when and advertisement on a golf course was unthinkable. Of course I too would love to see the "Good old days" back. Empty golf courses. When could You just pop down to the course and play a few holes alone, maybe play two or even three balls. At least here in Sweden its practically impossible now. You have to reserve time and if You are less than four You cant even choose with whom to play. Well I tend to lean towards that if You have let professionalism in on the production of golf services You should also let anyone who wishes try his or her wings going for whatever prizes there is out there. There are probably still enough players out there who enjoy the game for a beer to last my life anyway. Professionals do whatever they do for a living. Amateurs do the same thing however with the distinction that they do it for fun recreation or something else. Maybe there are too many good amateurs and the competition would be to hard…..? Have Fun Ian
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Almost any sport or game exept golf have by now accepted the idea that it is practically impossible to draw the line between an amateur and a professional. … These Rules should be abolished. I dont understand the purpose of them. Maybe some of You do?
If you abolish them, we all become professionals. There is no need for the US or British Amateur tournaments any more. Or any of the state golf associations since we could all be members of the PGA or the equivalent in other countries and they could run all the events.. Peter Jacobsen and Bob Gilder could play against me in all the tournaments around the state. I could go and try to qualify for the Tour without having to become a pro. Of course, if you are a pro, you really don’t need a handicap and you surely wouldn’t have to have flights in tournaments. Sounds like fun to me. See, if you are going to have amateurs, you have to draw the lines somewhere. It is just like many of the other rules in golf. They are defining lines. Without them, everything becomes open to lots of interpretation. If you win a car with a hole-in-one and you want it. You take the car, and immediately file your application for re-instatement as an amateur and one year later you are an amateur again. If you do it twice, you might have to wait longer, but you are such a lucky sod you deserve to wait. (-: John Vander Borght "Golf is not a game of perfect" – Dr. Bob Rotella
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I can’t see any reason of keeping this rule (on amateurs and pros). If
anyone disagree to this, give a good arguement by using examples from other sports. I think it’s unfair to give a golfer, that has spent ours and ours practicing day in and day out to be the best, an umbrella or a sleeve of balls for a victory in a tournament.
First, your request for examples from other sports. I know of no other sport that pays the winners of amateur tournaments. I used to play competetive amateur soccer. When we won a big tournament the team got a trophy and the members little medals. We won our league division and won certificates. No money. Look around at softball leaques. Tons of recreational softball leagues here in the south playing for nothing more than accasional trophies. There are some small time pro games in both soccer and softball. Local teams of very good players being paid to play for a particular club, useually the highest local bidder. These players are not welcome in the recreational leaques. Sounds exactly like golf to me. Pro golfers like asst. golf pros, and even the players who hangout, wait tables at night, and play in local micro-mini tour events, have through their chosen professional golfer lifestyle, much greater time to practice and play and hone their games than those of us who work non-golf jobs for a living. I don’t want to compete against them, and I’m sure they feel the same about me. Anyone who practices day-in and day-out to be the best should not fear becoming a pro — and they should not expect, nor want, to compete against me and have access to win my entry fee money. I cannot practice day-in and day-out — I must work. I agree with Dan King that college scholarship athletes should be classified as professionals while they are in college, but should be able to regain their amateur status upon leaving college should they decide not to turn pro and have not violated any other rules of amateur status while in school (like playing for prize money in a pro tournament.) I don’t think it is fair to true amateurs to allow college golfers who get college credit for playing golf and have their schedules organized around daily practice and play to compete against working stiffs.
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Golf has been around long enough to be a role model for amatuer sports conduct, not a lemming.
Thank you and well put. In fact the thought has made me reconsider if I am maybe a little to tough on the pros by commenting about how "chummie" them seem with each other instead of treating each other like "the enemy". Cheers, Mike — Mike Marler Information Technology, Georgia Tech
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Almost any sport or game exept golf have by now accepted the idea that it is practically impossible to draw the line between an amateur and a professional. That’s their problem, not golf’s. The Rules Of Golf, as written by the Royal and Ancient, states that if someone accepts a prize in a competition that have a "retail value" of more than 300 Pounds or 500 USD for an event of more than 2 rounds, automatically "cause forfeiture of Amateur Status".
Real tournaments don’t offer prizes, they have medals or trophies. At the same time under certain circumstances it is accepted to receive for example, transportation and expenses paid, to a competition abroad. Normally for those who make it through a qualification competition. Correct; the USGA helped out on travel expenses to this year’s US Publinks in Hawaii. What’s your point?
Also, golf organizations send teams abroad for competitions (eg, Walker Cup, Curtis Cup) just like other sports. As You all know there are several competitions out there that offers a hole in one prize in the shape of a car. Most of us would argue that its worth the "shame" to accept it and take the punishment set out by the Rules. But why are the Rules still there?
I agree with this. A hole-in-one is mostly luck and should be treated the same as gambling. You put up a few bucks to cover the insurance just like you put up a few bucks in a skins game. To keep the game as classy as it is. If I ever won a car for an ace, I’d give it to charity. Really. I don’t need another car. I don’t need the tax headache. I don’t play golf for profit. And no, I’m not rich. I just have my priorities straight.
But you would have to accept the car before you gave it away. You would still lose your amateur status, I think. Bob Dietrich
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John, I agree totaly. I can’t see any reason of keeping this rule. If anyone disagree to this, give a good arguement by using examples from other sports.
First, before proceeding further we need to agree on a very critical point. If you don’t agree with me, my argument doesn’t hold for you, and you can stop reading from there. Ready……. * Golf is the greatest game in the world. If you agree we’ll move on. Since golf is the greatest game in the world, what would be the point of golf trying to change to be like other games/sports? If anything they should be striving to be more like golf. I am all for change in golf, I’ve argued a few points now and then myself. I just think it is a weak argument to say no other games/sports do it the way golf does, and therefore golf should change. other games/sports should be looking toward golf as a positive example. I think it’s unfair to give a golfer, that has spent ours and ours practicing day in and day out to be the best, an umbrella or a sleeve of balls for a victory in a tournament.
Golf amateur rules need to be toughened up, not made more lenient. Professional golfers are generally better golfers than amateurs. They should be, they have more time to dedicate to their game (generally). The problem with blurring the line between the two statuses is that you will ruin amateur golf events. How good do you think someone like Mark Brooks would do in next weeks U.S. Amateur? You think he’d have a good shot at winning? Professionals should be those that play the game for monetary reward, amateurs should be those that play for the love of the game. The problem becomes, how do you set hard and fast rules to separate the two? I think the rules as they stand are fairly decent. The change I would make is to assign college scholarship money a monetary value and apply that to the rules also. If you are earning a college scholarship, you can not compete in amateur events. There are NCAA tournaments they can compete in. Leave the amateur events for amateurs. Cheers, Dan King The Amateur was THE tournament in those days. It was widely considered to have the best players while the pro game was doomed to be played by guys whose options would have been bootblacks or pool hustlers if they hadn’t stumbled onto a golf course. The notion that no gentleman ever plays too well died hard. –Jim Murray
Response:
Almost any sport or game exept golf have by now accepted the idea that it is practically impossible to draw the line between an amateur and a professional.
That’s their problem, not golf’s. The Rules Of Golf, as written by the Royal and Ancient, states that if someone accepts a prize in a competition that have a "retail value" of more than 300 Pounds or 500 USD for an event of more than 2 rounds, automatically "cause forfeiture of Amateur Status".
Most folks in this world still consider that more than a token amount of money. An amateur plays for the joy of the game, not for profit. A professional plays to earn a living. At the same time under certain circumstances it is accepted to receive for example, transportation and expenses paid, to a competition abroad. Normally for those who make it through a qualification competition.
Correct; the USGA helped out on travel expenses to this year’s US Publinks in Hawaii. What’s your point? These Rules should be abolished. I dont understand the purpose of them. Maybe some of You do?
I think I stated it quite succinctly above. As You all know there are several competitions out there that offers a hole in one prize in the shape of a car. Most of us would argue that its worth the "shame" to accept it and take the punishment set out by the Rules. But why are the Rules still there?
To keep the game as classy as it is. If I ever won a car for an ace, I’d give it to charity. Really. I don’t need another car. I don’t need the tax headache. I don’t play golf for profit. And no, I’m not rich. I just have my priorities straight. A few hundred bucks of Pro Shop credit keeps me quite happy (& pretty much covers my tournament fees for the year). The recognition of my peers and my satisfaction over a good performance is enough. The money is irrelevant, and it could go away for all I care. It’s not why I play golf. John, I agree totaly. I can’t see any reason of keeping this rule. If anyone disagree to this, give a good arguement by using examples from other sports.
Jarle, I don’t think using examples like professionals in the Olympics is what golf needs right now. Golf has been around long enough to be a role model for amatuer sports conduct, not a lemming. I think it’s unfair to give a golfer, that has spent ours and ours practicing day in and day out to be the best, an umbrella or a sleeve of balls for a victory in a tournament.
If you measure part of your satisfaction on the monetary value of your prize, I think you need to re-evaluate your motives for playing and competing. Do you practice so that you can win money, or do you strive to be the best you can be for the personal challenge? The only area that I have a problem with here is the betting part. If a bunch of guys want to put together a $500/team calcutta, I think they should be allowed to, with the winner taking home a significant amount of money. Hell, they’re just getting together to have some fun, and some folks like to bet. But the idea a strong amatuer could go around his/her region, plunking down $50 entry fees and actually make a few hundred here, a thousand there…naw…that starts to sound like a professional to me. Regards, Mark
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, I would like to hear some of You express your opinion on the following Almost any sport or game exept golf have by now accepted the idea that it is practically impossible to draw the line between an amateur and a professional. The Rules Of Golf, as written by the Royal and Ancient, states that if someone accepts a prize in a competition that have a "retail value" of more than 300 Pounds or 500 USD for an event of more than 2 rounds, automatically "cause forfeiture of Amateur Status". At the same time under certain circumstances it is accepted to receive for example, transportation and expenses paid, to a competition abroad. Normally for those who make it through a qualification competition. As long as it is accepted by the local and foreign Governing Bodies. I think that it is time to let go. These Rules should be abolished. I dont understand the purpose of them. Maybe some of You do? As You all know there are several competitions out there that offers a hole in one prize in the shape of a car. Most of us would argue that its worth the "shame" to accept it and take the punishment set out by the Rules. But why are the Rules still there? I would very much like to see Your thoughts on this Yours John Hersch
John, I agree totaly. I can’t see any reason of keeping this rule. If anyone disagree to this, give a good arguement by using examples from other sports. I think it’s unfair to give a golfer, that has spent ours and ours practicing day in and day out to be the best, an umbrella or a sleeve of balls for a victory in a tournament. Jarle Midtskogen
Response:
Hi there, I would like to hear some of You express your opinion on the following Almost any sport or game exept golf have by now accepted the idea that it is practically impossible to draw the line between an amateur and a professional. The Rules Of Golf, as written by the Royal and Ancient, states that if someone accepts a prize in a competition that have a "retail value" of more than 300 Pounds or 500 USD for an event of more than 2 rounds, automatically "cause forfeiture of Amateur Status". At the same time under certain circumstances it is accepted to receive for example, transportation and expenses paid, to a competition abroad. Normally for those who make it through a qualification competition. As long as it is accepted by the local and foreign Governing Bodies. I think that it is time to let go. These Rules should be abolished. I dont understand the purpose of them. Maybe some of You do? As You all know there are several competitions out there that offers a hole in one prize in the shape of a car. Most of us would argue that its worth the "shame" to accept it and take the punishment set out by the Rules. But why are the Rules still there? I would very much like to see Your thoughts on this Yours John Hersch