Question:
Dan Driscoll asked: Does anyone really think Tiger intended to test the surface?
Again: who really knows? What is clear, though, is that not too many people would call Tiger on breeching Rule 16 even if he took a core sample of a putting green and started doing chemical composition tests on the soil.
Response:
If rolling a ball around with the club you are actually going to use to make the stroke is not a penalty, how can rolling it with your finger be one (after marking)?
Tiger didn’t use a club to roll his ball around, so Rule 16-1d3 does not excuse his action.
Response:
If rolling a ball around with the club you are actually going to use to make the stroke is not a penalty, how can rolling it with your finger be one (after marking)? Tiger didn’t use a club to roll his ball around, so Rule 16-1d3 does not excuse his action.
I’m a bit late on picking up this thread but when I saw Tiger roll his ball in this way after marking I found it rather an odd thing to do. The only criterion is whether or not he was testing the surface and I said to myself "What the hell does that actually mean?" If rolling a ball with the putter head is not, conceding a putt by putting the ball the opponents ball back to him is not, rolling the ball away by using the hand after marking is not, cleaning the ball by rubbing it on the green is not, then there appears to be only one way to "test the surface". That is by deliberately rolling a ball along your line of putt in the direction of the hole. There is nowhere in the rules which defines "testing the surface". So I guess that Tiger’s action was legitimate until proved not, even though I thought it strange. I actually picked up on what appeared to be an actual transgression by Chris diMarco on the Friday round and so did another of my acquaintances. But no one pulled him on it. — Pat Williams
Response:
How is the Rule on rolling a ball with a putter (after marking) relevant? Woods rolled the ball with his hand, and he did it at least twice during the tournament. The sticking point I have is this notion of "for testing purposes." Is a clever cheat going to announce that he is rolling the ball in order to test the green? How can anyone know what is in the heart and mind of Tiger Woods? Do you think you know Tiger Woods because you’ve seen him on the TV and he seems like a nice fellow? Perhaps the Rule itself need to be evaluated, because if the guardians of golf considered ball-rolling worthy of a two stroke penalty, then the guidelines should be more accurately defined. I wish Tiger had never rolled his ball on 10 and 12 on Saturday at the Masters, Dan, and thanks for the info/reply. I wasn’t aware of 16-1d3.
If rolling a ball around with the club you are actually going to use to make the stroke is not a penalty, how can rolling it with your finger be one (after marking)? The rule and the definitions between them make it very clear that there has to be intent for there to have been a violation. Does anyone really think Tiger intended to test the surface? BTW, if the ball was NOT marked, then there was a violation, but of Rule 18-2, not Rule 16-1. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
Response:
"John Foote" reported: I actually got called on this one about 10 years ago in match play. I just fumbled the stupid ball, accidentally, and after it rolled a foot or two, this nitwit started in on me `testing the green’.
Yeah, John, I have my own match play horror stories. Accidentally dropping a ball on a putting green wouldn’t constitute "testing" in my opinion. Tiger, OTOH, deliberately rolled his ball. His was an intentional action, no question.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What an idiot. If there was any violation, why haven’t we heard about it from anyone else? Woods won fair and square. Get over it. Ye gods, man! One might think I said the Pope was a pedarast, given your response. I’m actually quite thrilled that Tiger won at Augusta. I think he will probably put all this talk of "Is it A Slam or Not?" to rest by winning the next three majors. I just saw him violate Rule 16 at least two times, that’s all. Granted, many golf rules are chickenshit (just ask Roberto DeVicenzo) but this is not the point. Rule 16 is easy enough to abide. Tiger should NOT be rolling his ball on the green while he is in the process of playing the hole.
Actually decisions 16-1d/3 and 16-1d/5 both allow the player to roll the ball on the green providing the player isn’t taking the opportunity to test the green. Because of this potential ambiguity in motive the practise is not recommended. Crispin Roche
Response:
How is the Rule on rolling a ball with a putter (after marking) relevant? Woods rolled the ball with his hand, and he did it at least twice during the tournament. The sticking point I have is this notion of "for testing purposes." Is a clever cheat going to announce that he is rolling the ball in order to test the green? How can anyone know what is in the heart and mind of Tiger Woods? Do you think you know Tiger Woods because you’ve seen him on the TV and he seems like a nice fellow? Perhaps the Rule itself need to be evaluated, because if the guardians of golf considered ball-rolling worthy of a two stroke penalty, then the guidelines should be more accurately defined. I wish Tiger had never rolled his ball on 10 and 12 on Saturday at the Masters, Dan, and thanks for the info/reply. I wasn’t aware of 16-1d3. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Am I the only one who saw Tiger violate Rule 16-1d on both the 10th and 12th greens today? No one, not even you, saw TW violate Rule 16, you just thought you did. There is only a violation if the ball was rolled for the purpose of testing the condition of the green. Decisions 16-1d/1, /2, and /3 specifically allow a player to roll a ball on the green so long as the purpose was not to test the surface. The most relevent one is 16-1d/3, which states: "16-1d/3 Player Returns Ball to Spot from Which It Was Lifted by Rolling It with Putter Q. A player marks the position of his ball on the putting green, lifts the ball and sets it aside. When it is his turn to putt, he rolls the ball with his putter back to the spot from which it was lifted. Was the player in breach of Rule 16-1d (Testing Surface)? A. No, provided the action of rolling the ball was not for the purpose of testing the surface of the green. This method of replacing a ball is not recommended, but it is not a breach of the Rules." So long as Tiger did not roll the ball for the purpose of testing the condition of the surface then there was no violation. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
Response:
The rule prohibits "testing."
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And how in the hell would you know? Proof is that he wasn’t penalized. No, it proves that Tiger either doesn’t know the Rule…or he does and doesn’t care what it says. Who the hell knows what he was doing rolling balls on the 10th and 12th green? Wouldn’t it have been better if he removed all speculation by simply marking and lifting his ball like everybody else?
Response:
I actually got called on this one about 10 years ago in match play. I just fumbled the stupid ball, accidentally, and after it rolled a foot or two, this nitwit started in on me `testing the green’. I took the penalty, won the match anyway, and figured (correctly) that he would be the one and only such rutabega I would ever come across. Still, it’s nice to know the rule, so Thanks, Dan…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Q. A player marks the position of his ball on the putting green, lifts the ball and sets it aside. When it is his turn to putt, he rolls the ball with his putter back to the spot from which it was lifted. Was the player in breach of Rule 16-1d (Testing Surface)? A. No, provided the action of rolling the ball was not for the purpose of testing the surface of the green. This method of replacing a ball is not recommended, but it is not a breach of the Rules." So long as Tiger did not roll the ball for the purpose of testing the condition of the surface then there was no violation. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
Response:
Am I the only one who saw Tiger violate Rule 16-1d on both the 10th and 12th greens today?
No one, not even you, saw TW violate Rule 16, you just thought you did. There is only a violation if the ball was rolled for the purpose of testing the condition of the green. Decisions 16-1d/1, /2, and /3 specifically allow a player to roll a ball on the green so long as the purpose was not to test the surface. The most relevent one is 16-1d/3, which states: "16-1d/3 Player Returns Ball to Spot from Which It Was Lifted by Rolling It with Putter Q. A player marks the position of his ball on the putting green, lifts the ball and sets it aside. When it is his turn to putt, he rolls the ball with his putter back to the spot from which it was lifted. Was the player in breach of Rule 16-1d (Testing Surface)? A. No, provided the action of rolling the ball was not for the purpose of testing the surface of the green. This method of replacing a ball is not recommended, but it is not a breach of the Rules." So long as Tiger did not roll the ball for the purpose of testing the condition of the surface then there was no violation. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
Response:
No violation. There was no testing of the putting surface.
How in the hell would you know?
Response:
What an idiot. If there was any violation, why haven’t we heard about it from anyone else? Woods won fair and square. Get over it. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No violation. There was no testing of the putting surface. How in the hell would you know?
Response:
No violation. There was no testing of the putting surface. How in the hell would you know?
And how in the hell would you know? Proof is that he wasn’t penalized. "Someone likes every shot" bk Please: no spam, off topic, or crossposts as explained in the RSG FAQ: at http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html
Response:
What an idiot. If there was any violation, why haven’t we heard about it from anyone else? Woods won fair and square. Get over it.
Ye gods, man! One might think I said the Pope was a pedarast, given your response. I’m actually quite thrilled that Tiger won at Augusta. I think he will probably put all this talk of "Is it A Slam or Not?" to rest by winning the next three majors. I just saw him violate Rule 16 at least two times, that’s all. Granted, many golf rules are chickenshit (just ask Roberto DeVicenzo) but this is not the point. Rule 16 is easy enough to abide. Tiger should NOT be rolling his ball on the green while he is in the process of playing the hole.
Response:
And how in the hell would you know? Proof is that he wasn’t penalized.
No, it proves that Tiger either doesn’t know the Rule…or he does and doesn’t care what it says. Who the hell knows what he was doing rolling balls on the 10th and 12th green? Wouldn’t it have been better if he removed all speculation by simply marking and lifting his ball like everybody else?
Response:
No violation. There was no testing of the putting surface. Decision 16-1d/3.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Am I the only one who saw Tiger violate Rule 16-1d on both the 10th and 12th greens today?
Response:
I don’t think a player is allowed to "mark, roll and lift." That’s what Tiger did on 10 and 12. A ball should only be rolling on a putting green if it has been set in motion by a stroke, and I’m not talking about the stroke of an index finger. I guess it’s a legal mark if the index finger happens to belong to the best player in the world…
Response:
Am I the only one who saw Tiger violate Rule 16-1d on both the 10th and 12th greens today?
Response:
I think you conveniently forgot rules 16-1a to 16-1c??? Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Am I the only one who saw Tiger violate Rule 16-1d on both the 10th and 12th greens today?