Question:
I was just considering swings and drivers and stuff for the 100th time today and a thought just occured to me. The rounded face on the drivers available is so that if you swing in to out (or the opposite) there’s less risk of slicing the ball and sending it on more predictable trajectories. Wouldn’t practising with a flatter driver say on a driving range help determine if your swing’s out and therefore be better for you to determine the root of the problem? Is there another way to identify such swing problems on the driving range? I’m still very early on in my game and I feel that there’s too much that I can’t see that I’m doing wrong and maybe I need less forgiving equipment to rent or buy to help me pinpoint my inacuracies. any thoughts? cb
Response:
I was just considering swings and drivers and stuff for the 100th time today and a thought just occured to me. The rounded face on the drivers available is so that if you swing in to out (or the opposite) there’s less risk of slicing the ball and sending it on more predictable trajectories.
Chris, that’s actually not what the rounded face is designed to deal with. The horizontal curve–known as bulge–is designed to correct for hits away from the sweet spot. If you hit a ball w/ the driver with a neutral swingpath, but hit toward the toe, the bulge would, at first glance, seem to promote the ball going rightward. But in fact, what occurs is what is known as the "gear effect." The clubhead twists a bit with that offcenter hit, imparting opposite spin to the ball than the direction you’d think. It’s partly why the bigger-headed drivers have become popular. With the large head, the center of gravity is much farther back, which in conjunction with the larger face, makes such drivers more forgiving. The same effect occurs with balls hit toward the heel. Wouldn’t practising with a flatter driver say on a driving range help determine if your swing’s out and therefore be better for you to determine the root of the problem?
I can think of several ways to determine that. Wouldn’t practicing with your normal driver–the one you’d expect to use on the course–give you that information as well? And if you can’t hit that one well, wouldn’t it be a good tool to show errors in your swing? And wouldn’t it make sense to practice with what you play with? It’s unlikely another driver will feel the same. Is there another way to identify such swing problems on the driving range? I’m still very early on in my game and I feel that there’s too much that I can’t see that I’m doing wrong and maybe I need less forgiving equipment to rent or buy to help me pinpoint my inacuracies. any thoughts? cb
Many people suggest that newer players not use a driver, but rather a 3-wood. It’s more forgiving than a driver given the higher loft, and is a little easier to control. Have you had some lessons yet? That’s really the best way to determine what you’re doing wrong. Mike Mike Dalecki I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean! GCA Accredited Clubmaker. Web Site: http://www.dalecki.net/clubdoctor/ RSG-Wisconsin 2002 Report/Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2002/part1.html RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim
Response:
When I began to play the game, I remember the dreadful slice that seemed like it took me ages to get rid of. The way I got rid of my slice is simple. Get an old club, preferably an iron. With a tire laying flat on the ground, set up as you would a ball. Take slow swings focusing on your mechanics and especially impact. Try to impact the tire with the club face square. Begin slowly and over time, steadily increase your swing speed. After you feel that you have mastered this, get a smaller object. You may end up going through several clubs doing this, but the payoff is tremendous and, if results are like mine, rid yourself of the slice. When you have mastered objects slightly larger than a golf ball, you are ready to tackle the ball. I hope this helps you as it did me. This exercise also ensures good mechanics and will help your whole swing. Hawk
Response:
I was just considering swings and drivers and stuff for the 100th time today and a thought just occured to me. The rounded face on the drivers available is so that if you swing in to out (or the opposite) there’s less risk of slicing the ball and sending it on more predictable trajectories.
That’s not true. It’s so if you catch it on the toe and the head twists, the spin of the ball won’t make it curve too much in the wrong direction.
Response:
I recommend logging as many hours as you possibly can, at a driving range. Nothing improves your swing faster than repetitive practice. Another bonus of long hours at the range, is that while you’re there, you’re not out in the real world, getting in everyone’s way.
Response:
Wouldn’t practising with a flatter driver say on a driving range help determine if your swing’s out and therefore be better for you to determine the root of the problem?
You don’t need to do that. Just use your regular driver and note where the ball starts out. The ball will always fly in the direction of your path (at impact). So if you are swinging in-to-out the ball will start right (for a righty). Conversely, an out-to-in swing ("cutting across it") will make the ball start left of the target. The angle of the clubface at impact (open/closed) will determine what direction the ball will spin after that. It’s really as simple as that.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wouldn’t practising with a flatter driver say on a driving range help determine if your swing’s out and therefore be better for you to determine the root of the problem? You don’t need to do that. Just use your regular driver and note where the ball starts out. The ball will always fly in the direction of your path (at impact). So if you are swinging in-to-out the ball will start right (for a righty). Conversely, an out-to-in swing ("cutting across it") will make the ball start left of the target. The angle of the clubface at impact (open/closed) will determine what direction the ball will spin after that. It’s really as simple as that.
Path x Face = Direction.
Response:
Chris, that’s actually not what the rounded face is designed to deal with. The horizontal curve–known as bulge–is designed to correct for hits away from the sweet spot. If you hit a ball w/ the driver with a neutral swingpath, but hit toward the toe, the bulge would, at first glance, seem to promote the ball going rightward. But in fact, what occurs is what is known as the "gear effect." The clubhead twists a bit with that offcenter hit, imparting opposite spin to the ball than the direction you’d think. It’s partly why the bigger-headed drivers have become popular. With the large head, the center of gravity is much farther back, which in conjunction with the larger face, makes such drivers more forgiving. The same effect occurs with balls hit toward the heel.
Something new learned today. Thanks. Wouldn’t practising with a flatter driver say on a driving range help determine if your swing’s out and therefore be better for you to determine the root of the problem? I can think of several ways to determine that. Wouldn’t practicing with your normal driver–the one you’d expect to use on the course–give you that information as well? And if you can’t hit that one well, wouldn’t it be a good tool to show errors in your swing? And wouldn’t it make sense to practice with what you play with? It’s unlikely another driver will feel the same.
I can see what you’re saying but I’m sure that I don’t hit my 3 Wood perfectly (having hit it about 20 times total) and it’s my longest club. I’d really like to know when I know it’s a perfect hit and anything to aid me in the process would help. I’m actualy overjoyed at how I tee off with it but better is better no? Is there another way to identify such swing problems on the driving range? I’m still very early on in my game and I feel that there’s too much that I can’t see that I’m doing wrong and maybe I need less forgiving equipment to rent or buy to help me pinpoint my inacuracies. any thoughts? cb Many people suggest that newer players not use a driver, but rather a 3-wood. It’s more forgiving than a driver given the higher loft, and is a little easier to control.
That’s where I’m at. Have you had some lessons yet? That’s really the best way to determine what you’re doing wrong.
Had one lesson so far and it worked wonders for me. I need to practice what I’ve been taught a bit more because my irons are somewhat inconsistent although when I make a solid contact (Yes, I end up topping the ball or hitting it in the teeth too much on the slopes) and then take another lesson but I still think that my original thought is somewhat valid – making it harder to hit a good shot with drivers or irons for practice purposes should help me hit the ball a lot sweeter in the game. – similar to practising putting aiming for a tee.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I began to play the game, I remember the dreadful slice that seemed like it took me ages to get rid of. The way I got rid of my slice is simple. Get an old club, preferably an iron. With a tire laying flat on the ground, set up as you would a ball. Take slow swings focusing on your mechanics and especially impact. Try to impact the tire with the club face square. Begin slowly and over time, steadily increase your swing speed. After you feel that you have mastered this, get a smaller object. You may end up going through several clubs doing this, but the payoff is tremendous and, if results are like mine, rid yourself of the slice. When you have mastered objects slightly larger than a golf ball, you are ready to tackle the ball. I hope this helps you as it did me. This exercise also ensures good mechanics and will help your whole swing. Hawk
Thanks Hawk. I guess the tyre being elastic at impact will jarr the club somewhat if it isn’t flat against it with the sweetspot. I’m not slicing at the moment though after a good lesson but it takes me a whole hole to get into my game. Use the spare tyre before a game must be the answer! cb
Response:
Thanks Anne, It does remind me of teaching guitar though. Practice and performance are two different things (in relation to playing 18 holes and driving). The other similarity unfortunately is that if you practice wrong (as I was definitely doing before my lesson) you only get better at playing wrong. The driving range has another drawback for me though. I work myself up too much mentally on the range. Playing, I really concentrate on relaxing and enjoying the course if I’ve played my last shot good or bad and really enjoy the walk. The presence of a teacher or companionship on the course reminds me that it’s a gentleman’s game (gentleperson if you prefer but I have no time for the PC crowd) and as such making everyone as comfortable as possible does help the nerves and improve the game for me. cb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recommend logging as many hours as you possibly can, at a driving range. Nothing improves your swing faster than repetitive practice. Another bonus of long hours at the range, is that while you’re there, you’re not out in the real world, getting in everyone’s way.
Response:
Thanks guys. cb
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wouldn’t practising with a flatter driver say on a driving range help determine if your swing’s out and therefore be better for you to determine the root of the problem? You don’t need to do that. Just use your regular driver and note where the ball starts out. The ball will always fly in the direction of your path (at impact). So if you are swinging in-to-out the ball will start right (for a righty). Conversely, an out-to-in swing ("cutting across it") will make the ball start left of the target. The angle of the clubface at impact (open/closed) will determine what direction the ball will spin after that. It’s really as simple as that. Path x Face = Direction.
Response:
Wouldn’t practising with a flatter driver say on a driving range help determine if your swing’s out and therefore be better for you to determine the root of the problem? You don’t need to do that. Just use your regular driver and note where the ball starts out. The ball will always fly in the direction of your path (at impact).
Cough, cough, excuse me. This is a golfer urban legend. The face angle has more influence on direction than the path does, even on full swing shots. There is a section on this in The Search for the Perfect Swing. I’ll follow up with the exact quote later. But think of it like this, if you clubhead is traveling straight down the line with the clubface open 45 degrees, which way will the ball start out? It won’t be straight. It will actually be closer to 45 degrees than straight. Now, you can have a clubface that is closed relative to the target line and open relative to the clubhead path, with an extreme out to in path. That ball will start left relative to the target line and curve right. But it will also start out right of the clubhead path. So the anecdotal evidence may sometimes show what you say, but that is not what the actual cause and effect are. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So if you are swinging in-to-out the ball will start right (for a righty). Conversely, an out-to-in swing ("cutting across it") will make the ball start left of the target. The angle of the clubface at impact (open/closed) will determine what direction the ball will spin after that. It’s really as simple as that.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wouldn’t practising with a flatter driver say on a driving range help determine if your swing’s out and therefore be better for you to determine the root of the problem? You don’t need to do that. Just use your regular driver and note where the ball starts out. The ball will always fly in the direction of your path (at impact). Cough, cough, excuse me. This is a golfer urban legend. The face angle has more influence on direction than the path does, even on full swing shots. There is a section on this in The Search for the Perfect Swing. I’ll follow up with the exact quote later.
The exact quote was pretty much what I said, so I didn’t bother writing it down. See page 124 in Search for the Perfect Swing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But think of it like this, if you clubhead is traveling straight down the line with the clubface open 45 degrees, which way will the ball start out? It won’t be straight. It will actually be closer to 45 degrees than straight. Now, you can have a clubface that is closed relative to the target line and open relative to the clubhead path, with an extreme out to in path. That ball will start left relative to the target line and curve right. But it will also start out right of the clubhead path. So the anecdotal evidence may sometimes show what you say, but that is not what the actual cause and effect are. So if you are swinging in-to-out the ball will start right (for a righty). Conversely, an out-to-in swing ("cutting across it") will make the ball start left of the target. The angle of the clubface at impact (open/closed) will determine what direction the ball will spin after that. It’s really as simple as that.
Response:
Just use your regular driver and note where the ball starts out. The ball will always fly in the direction of your path (at impact). Cough, cough, excuse me. This is a golfer urban legend. The face angle has more influence on direction than the path does, even on full swing shots. There is a section on this in The Search for the Perfect Swing. I’ll follow up with the exact quote later.
I noticed that Cochran and Stobbs had little data to support this. I simply don’t believe it to be true. It certainly IS true at low-impact energies such as putting, where (according to Dave Pelz) 90% of any face angle errors will be transmitted to the ball. However, even Pelz points out that at high-impact energies such as a drive the ball is compressed onto the face and carried along for a short distance along the direction of the clubhead path. I’d be interested in reading more about this.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just use your regular driver and note where the ball starts out. The ball will always fly in the direction of your path (at impact). Cough, cough, excuse me. This is a golfer urban legend. The face angle has more influence on direction than the path does, even on full swing shots. There is a section on this in The Search for the Perfect Swing. I’ll follow up with the exact quote later. I noticed that Cochran and Stobbs had little data to support this. I simply don’t believe it to be true. It certainly IS true at low-impact energies such as putting, where (according to Dave Pelz) 90% of any face angle errors will be transmitted to the ball. However, even Pelz points out that at high-impact energies such as a drive the ball is compressed onto the face and carried along for a short distance along the direction of the clubhead path. I’d be interested in reading more about this.
It’s a basically simple vector physics. If the face is open ten degrees from the path, the flight path of the ball will be somewhere between the direction of the swingpath and ten degrees right of that path (for a righthanded golfer). The faster the swing, the closer the flight path will get to the swing path because that vector is getting more energy. -Barry —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just use your regular driver and note where the ball starts out. The ball will always fly in the direction of your path (at impact). Cough, cough, excuse me. This is a golfer urban legend. The face angle has more influence on direction than the path does, even on full swing shots. There is a section on this in The Search for the Perfect Swing. I’ll follow up with the exact quote later. I noticed that Cochran and Stobbs had little data to support this. I simply don’t believe it to be true. It certainly IS true at low-impact energies such as putting, where (according to Dave Pelz) 90% of any face angle errors will be transmitted to the ball. However, even Pelz points out that at high-impact energies such as a drive the ball is compressed onto the face and carried along for a short distance along the direction of the clubhead path. I’d be interested in reading more about this. It’s a basically simple vector physics. If the face is open ten degrees from the path, the flight path of the ball will be somewhere between the direction of the swing path and ten degrees right of that path (for a righthanded golfer). The faster the swing, the closer the flight path will get to the swing path because that vector is getting more energy. -Barry
Yeah, but the interesting fact is that even for full swings the initial direction the ball takes depends MORE on the face angle than the swing path, according to C&S. So, in the example you gave, the initial direction will be somewhere between 5 and 10 degrees to the right of the path. I don’t think C&S would make this statement without experimental data to back it up. I mean, the whole point of "Search for the Perfect Swing" was to do a scientific study of the golf swing, with actual scientists doing the study. I doubt if they would make it up, considering how easy it is to measure. All it takes is an Iron Byron and a high speed camera, which they clearly had. They would look pretty stupid if they published this and then Joe Shmoe did the actual experiment and published conflicting results in Golf Digest. I don’t remember seeing this question addressed anywhere else, except non-scientifically like in "Golf my Way". Jorgensen would be a good book to check. – Bill