Question:
Make sure that the clubface is square at address. Even a strong grip can be a problem if the clubface is open when you grip the club.
Roger that!!! I got caught laying it a little open in my lesson last week. I’m really watching that now!!. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
I don’t know Dave…read some of the other posts…have a differant take on your problem (talking from experience)… I think you’re still on an outside-in swing path with the new grip. That’s basically the only thing that can produce the spin that fades or slices. Too much "arms". Try the shoebox outside the ball, parallel to target line drill and see if your shots still fade (with the new grip). Bet they don’t.
Thanks, Mark. I’m gonna do that AND video tape this weekend. And your short irons or wedges should be played with a slightly weaker grip anyway. You don’t want them turning over as agressively.
I do that with any shot inside of 110-120 yards–I go to my Pelz finesse grip. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
Blaine Dickson) schreibt: Turning your shoulders is necessary, but there is a right and wrong way to coil your shoulders.
Written like a true Ballard disciple!!! Scottb
Response:
Blaine Dickson) schreibt: Turning your shoulders is necessary, but there is a right and wrong way to coil your shoulders. Written like a true Ballard disciple!!! Scottb
Well sure 
, but saying for example, "take the club to the top" to describe how to make a proper backswing is not very good instruction since this has to be done in a certain manner. Anyhow, you get my drift. — F. Blaine Dickson Kelowna BC Canada
Response:
Funny you should mention your reverse pivot after trying John Redman’s swing theory. Every time I’ve seen Redman on TGC I get the feeling that he is very close to a reverse pivot when he swings. I thin you and I must have similar swings. I really have to concentrate on turning the shoulders. And come to think of it, when I do remember to fully turn sometimes. I see the slice as having benefited me, however, since I now have extensive experience in hitting some very interesting second shots. Harlan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, Dave, if you really are turning your shoulders, sit down. Because this isn’t going to be easy to explain. Heck, it’s not easy for me to understand. But this is something my coach and I were working on some time ago, and I never really fully got it. He refers to it as "not losing your frontal orientation." Thanks, RAndy, I do think I get your drift. A while back I picked up John Redman’s book after seeing a blurb about him on the Tempomaster site. He likes a big hip turn and doesn’t like the idea of creating tension (of the X-factor variety). I tried his swing for awhile and without realizing it, I did develop a reverse pivot. I finally saw it on a video I sent to John Melvin. So since then I’ve tried to limit the hip turn and keep the "frontal focus." But as everyone has told me in the rest of this thread, I could very well be abbreviating the shoulder turn. I tried a few practice turns while watching in the bathroom mirror after I showered last night (not a site for the feint hearted). It really is a struggle for me to get a full 90 degree turn. I’m going to borrow my friends good video camera next week and try to get some visual evidence. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave: Turn your shoulders. I mean, REALLY turn your shoulders. You may say "but I do!", and sincerely believe it, but all I can say is 90% of the slicers I see don’t turn their shoulders enough. Turning your shoulders is necessary, but there is a right and wrong way to coil your shoulders. There has to be spefici information about HOW to coil them. However, your remarks about the triangle are mostly corrent, but you need to speak of them in relation to the shoulders since they operate as a unit.
Yeah, I was just hitting the hilites. (You know that story about Einstein’s balls.) Feel free to fill in the details. My standard statement to slicers is (still) to go see your PGA teaching pro. He CAN fix a slice quicker, and cheaper than trying to figure it out alone. Before you buy.
Response:
Dave: Turn your shoulders. I mean, REALLY turn your shoulders. You may say "but I do!", and sincerely believe it, but all I can say is 90% of the slicers I see don’t turn their shoulders enough.
Turning your shoulders is necessary, but there is a right and wrong way to coil your shoulders. There has to be spefici information about HOW to coil them. However, your remarks about the triangle are mostly corrent, but you need to speak of them in relation to the shoulders since they operate as a unit. — F. Blaine Dickson Kelowna BC Canada
Response:
Don’t overdo it as you can slip into a reverse pivot pretty easily. Check yourself in a mirror.
Thanks, Tim. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’m going to get the camera out to see what I’m really doing. I have a great shoulder turn in the bathroom mirror, but there just isn’t enough room in there to swing my 4-wood! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
Dave – my comments about the slice were generic — I have no idea what your own experience is other than your brief description of your experience where you used the words "turn the club over". For a lot of golfers to do this requires of them a directed conscious and "effortful" exertion.
Mai pen rai!! The funny thing is that I did take that lesson last Thursday that I told you about. He told me my problem was that I just wasn’t getting the left wrist back to the starting point. He then gave me an impressive demonstration of how he can direct the ball by consciously manipulating the club head with his hands before impact. I was really impressed, said thanks, and walked away knowing I had to find another answer. This guy’s been playing for 50 years and is a terrific player. Ain’t no way I’m going that route starting golf at the ripe old age of 48. I didn’t get a chance to head to the range today, but I’m going back at lunch tomorrow followed by nine holes of twilight golf after work. We’ll see. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
Okay, Dave, if you really are turning your shoulders, sit down. Because this isn’t going to be easy to explain. Heck, it’s not easy for me to understand. But this is something my coach and I were working on some time ago, and I never really fully got it. He refers to it as "not losing your frontal orientation."
Thanks, RAndy, I do think I get your drift. A while back I picked up John Redman’s book after seeing a blurb about him on the Tempomaster site. He likes a big hip turn and doesn’t like the idea of creating tension (of the X-factor variety). I tried his swing for awhile and without realizing it, I did develop a reverse pivot. I finally saw it on a video I sent to John Melvin. So since then I’ve tried to limit the hip turn and keep the "frontal focus." But as everyone has told me in the rest of this thread, I could very well be abbreviating the shoulder turn. I tried a few practice turns while watching in the bathroom mirror after I showered last night (not a site for the feint hearted). It really is a struggle for me to get a full 90 degree turn. I’m going to borrow my friends good video camera next week and try to get some visual evidence. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
I seriously disagree with this "single cure". If the grip is too weak, a struggle or in-swing "twist" is not the solution to a slice.
I didn’t say it was a single cure, but a good dose of medicine towards the cure. And I’m not struggling or trying to manipulate the club in anyway when I swing. I believe the stronger right hand is helping me to release better and turn the club over. Of course swing paths contribute, and that is a serious issue too, but "trying to do things" mid swing is not how I go about helping people.
I agree…and I’m not doing that. The way I frame it is "your club should return to square AUTOMATICALLY WITHOUT ANY IN-SWING TWISTING OR EFFORT to get it square — it will be the natural consequence of your motion. during a swing to square the face, you are very very far from the camp of those whom I see daily as successful.
Let me try your method. GEORGE…I’M NOT DOING ANY OF THAT. I’M MAKING THE SAME EXACT SWING AS I’VE BEEN TAKING. I MERELY ROTATED MY RIGHT HAND A FEW DEGREES TO THE RIGHT. QSA IMI? Why on earth do John Daly, DD, Langer, Azinger, Couples, Keuhne, and so many others use a grip where the back of their left hand is at least 45 degrees.
Great…tell them they have a left hand that looks Dave Clary’s. They’re to be congratulated! 
By the way, I’d really like to have a conversation with Azinger since he is John Redman’s prize pupil, and a lot of Redman’s teaching goes against the mainstream. Damn, why did I check RSG one last time…it’s way past my bed time. ‘Nite all.. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
Dave…I agree with this advice wholeheartedly. It is the one and only cause of my slice when it flares up. I get into a bad habit of not turning my right shoulder as far as my left. I get the left one under my chin but the right shoulder is hunched down…there is only one possible clubhead path in the downswing from there….over the top. As I turn, I need to feel like I am pulling back with my right sholder as well as turning the left. Don’t overdo it as you can slip into a reverse pivot pretty easily. Check yourself in a mirror. Face the mirror, make your shoulder turn and look at yourself. If your left shoulder is under your chin…very good. If you can see your right shoulder though (to the right of your head), you have abbreviated your shoulder turn…it should be behind your head. If you look at Tiger or Ernie or Freddie, their right shoulder is even to the left side of their head at the top of the backswing. Tim
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave: Turn your shoulders. I mean, REALLY turn your shoulders. You may say "but I do!", and sincerely believe it, but all I can say is 90% of the slicers I see don’t turn their shoulders enough. Practice 1/2 and 3/4 swings maintaining the shape of the triangle formed by your arms and shoulders. The ball will go straight. The final solution is a little more complicated than this, but this will get you most of the way there. You can compensate with the hands, but the shoulders are the key. [Lefties: Please hold this post up to a mirror] I have spent a lot of time the last few weeks trying to learn to hit fairway woods. I’ve hit some real good ones but I have shown quite a propensity to go right–anything from a mild fade to a wicked slice into an adjoining fairway. I’ve been stumped by this because since I first bought my clubs last summer, I’ve tended to pull or hook if I miss. I almost NEVER hit it right and I had several instructors/observers tell me I had a "good player’s problem." But all my playing up until recently was with 5 iron or shorter. I would use a 3-wood off the tee and would often hook it into big trouble. Towards the end of this summer I started a series of lesson with a pro (a card carrying PGA type) who changed my grip. It seemed to help my mid to short iron play, but then I started my effort on longer clubs with the results mentioned above. I’ve read lots of instructional material that stated the left hand grip was the prime determinant of where the club face points at impact. And as is common in this game, I’ve also read that the right hand is the key to squaring up. My left hand was already as strong as I thought I dare go (two…maybe three knuckles showing). So today I headed to the range at lunch time (3 minutes, 23 seconds from the office) and tried going back to my stronger right hand grip. Presto! So long slice. Hit a large bucket and not a single ball headed right except for a couple of good looking draws that started that way but came back to the target line. The bad news is that I did manage a couple of wicked hooks, but I feel I’m much closer to having a tee game (and long fairway game) than I’ve had recently. Hopefully it’s just a little fine tuning on the forward shift and turn before I can start putting it in the fairway with some regularity. Right now I’m using that 16 degree off the tee, but I have a 13* strong 3 on the way from Golfworks. Gonna hit another lunch bucket tomorrow–hopefully with similar results! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm Before you buy.
Response:
I don’t know Dave…read some of the other posts…have a differant take on your problem (talking from experience)… I think you’re still on an outside-in swing path with the new grip. That’s basically the only thing that can produce the spin that fades or slices. Too much "arms". Try the shoebox outside the ball, parallel to target line drill and see if your shots still fade (with the new grip). Bet they don’t. And your short irons or wedges should be played with a slightly weaker grip anyway. You don’t want them turning over as agressively. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [Lefties: Please hold this post up to a mirror] I have spent a lot of time the last few weeks trying to learn to hit fairway woods. I’ve hit some real good ones but I have shown quite a propensity to go right–anything from a mild fade to a wicked slice into an adjoining fairway. I’ve been stumped by this because since I first bought my clubs last summer, I’ve tended to pull or hook if I miss. I almost NEVER hit it right and I had several instructors/observers tell me I had a "good player’s problem." But all my playing up until recently was with 5 iron or shorter. I would use a 3-wood off the tee and would often hook it into big trouble. Towards the end of this summer I started a series of lesson with a pro (a card carrying PGA type) who changed my grip. It seemed to help my mid to short iron play, but then I started my effort on longer clubs with the results mentioned above. I’ve read lots of instructional material that stated the left hand grip was the prime determinant of where the club face points at impact. And as is common in this game, I’ve also read that the right hand is the key to squaring up. My left hand was already as strong as I thought I dare go (two…maybe three knuckles showing). So today I headed to the range at lunch time (3 minutes, 23 seconds from the office) and tried going back to my stronger right hand grip. Presto! So long slice. Hit a large bucket and not a single ball headed right except for a couple of good looking draws that started that way but came back to the target line. The bad news is that I did manage a couple of wicked hooks, but I feel I’m much closer to having a tee game (and long fairway game) than I’ve had recently. Hopefully it’s just a little fine tuning on the forward shift and turn before I can start putting it in the fairway with some regularity. Right now I’m using that 16 degree off the tee, but I have a 13* strong 3 on the way from Golfworks. Gonna hit another lunch bucket tomorrow–hopefully with similar results! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Before you buy.
Response:
Make sure that the clubface is square at address. Even a strong grip can be a problem if the clubface is open when you grip the club.
Response:
Dave – my comments about the slice were generic — I have no idea what your own experience is other than your brief description of your experience where you used the words "turn the club over". For a lot of golfers to do this requires of them a directed conscious and "effortful" exertion. I was "excessive" in the point only because it is of such great importance that no effort whatsoever should have to be applied during the swing TO square the club. A free motion has a free release, and if it is on the target line, the swinging club BECOMES square at impact IF the grip were of the "strength" that is correct for that person’s shape, build, joints, etc. Sorry if it appear to misinterpret your experience — the post was not directed to your specific concern any more than it applied, if it applied at all, to YOU, but to the grip-slice IN GENERAL. Too many pupils DO labor under an erroneous notion that "if I only try to……" while they swing. It becomes a mantra of much teaching, this Nor did I mean that you said it was a single cure. Again, generic as to the topic. Sorry: George
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I seriously disagree with this "single cure". If the grip is too weak, a struggle or in-swing "twist" is not the solution to a slice. I didn’t say it was a single cure, but a good dose of medicine towards the cure. And I’m not struggling or trying to manipulate the club in anyway when I swing. I believe the stronger right hand is helping me to release better and turn the club over. Of course swing paths contribute, and that is a serious issue too, but "trying to do things" mid swing is not how I go about helping people. I agree…and I’m not doing that. The way I frame it is "your club should return to square AUTOMATICALLY WITHOUT ANY IN-SWING TWISTING OR EFFORT to get it square — it will be the natural consequence of your motion. during a swing to square the face, you are very very far from the camp of those whom I see daily as successful. Let me try your method. GEORGE…I’M NOT DOING ANY OF THAT. I’M MAKING THE SAME EXACT SWING AS I’VE BEEN TAKING. I MERELY ROTATED MY RIGHT HAND A FEW DEGREES TO THE RIGHT. QSA IMI? Why on earth do John Daly, DD, Langer, Azinger, Couples, Keuhne, and so many others use a grip where the back of their left hand is at least 45 degrees. Great…tell them they have a left hand that looks Dave Clary’s. They’re to be congratulated! By the way, I’d really like to have a conversation with Azinger since he is John Redman’s prize pupil, and a lot of Redman’s teaching goes against the mainstream. Damn, why did I check RSG one last time…it’s way past my bed time. ‘Nite all.. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
As oversimplified as BigHornBill’s solution may sound, I would echo it. But with this caveat: If there is one thing I see all the time (and am guilty of it myself more than I care to admit) it’s that recreational golfers tend to manipulate the club with their arms and hands too much. Even those who, like me, know better, sometimes tend to get too armsy in the backswing, rather than turning the shoulders and letting the big muscles do the work. When you do this and maintain your angles, the club will tend to stay on plane, and, more importantly, the clubFACE will stay *square to plane* longer. Like BigHornBill says, turn your shoulders; don’t just swing your arms thinking that’s the same as a shoulder turn. It’s not, even if the shoulders do move as a result. But the backswing is only half the battle. You still must have everything moving in sync on the way down. Your hooks (and pulls) may be caused by an inactive lower body that leaves your arms to finish the swing and to flip over too soon at impact. (Boy, do I know THAT disease!) Randy Charter Member, RSG Clique BRAND NEW WEBSITE: www.YouGoGolf.com My RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html Voiceovers/Narration/Production Services: www.randybrownproductions.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave: Turn your shoulders. I mean, REALLY turn your shoulders. You may say "but I do!", and sincerely believe it, but all I can say is 90% of the slicers I see don’t turn their shoulders enough. Practice 1/2 and 3/4 swings maintaining the shape of the triangle formed by your arms and shoulders. The ball will go straight. The final solution is a little more complicated than this, but this will get you most of the way there. You can compensate with the hands, but the shoulders are the key. [Lefties: Please hold this post up to a mirror] I have spent a lot of time the last few weeks trying to learn to hit fairway woods. I’ve hit some real good ones but I have shown quite a propensity to go right–anything from a mild fade to a wicked slice into an adjoining fairway. I’ve been stumped by this because since I first bought my clubs last summer, I’ve tended to pull or hook if I miss. I almost NEVER hit it right and I had several instructors/observers tell me I had a "good player’s problem." But all my playing up until recently was with 5 iron or shorter. I would use a 3-wood off the tee and would often hook it into big trouble. Towards the end of this summer I started a series of lesson with a pro (a card carrying PGA type) who changed my grip. It seemed to help my mid to short iron play, but then I started my effort on longer clubs with the results mentioned above. I’ve read lots of instructional material that stated the left hand grip was the prime determinant of where the club face points at impact. And as is common in this game, I’ve also read that the right hand is the key to squaring up. My left hand was already as strong as I thought I dare go (two…maybe three knuckles showing). So today I headed to the range at lunch time (3 minutes, 23 seconds from the office) and tried going back to my stronger right hand grip. Presto! So long slice. Hit a large bucket and not a single ball headed right except for a couple of good looking draws that started that way but came back to the target line. The bad news is that I did manage a couple of wicked hooks, but I feel I’m much closer to having a tee game (and long fairway game) than I’ve had recently. Hopefully it’s just a little fine tuning on the forward shift and turn before I can start putting it in the fairway with some regularity. Right now I’m using that 16 degree off the tee, but I have a 13* strong 3 on the way from Golfworks. Gonna hit another lunch bucket tomorrow–hopefully with similar results! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm Before you buy.
Response:
Okay, Dave, if you really are turning your shoulders, sit down. Because this isn’t going to be easy to explain. Heck, it’s not easy for me to understand. But this is something my coach and I were working on some time ago, and I never really fully got it. He refers to it as "not losing your frontal orientation." What the hell does that mean? you ask. Good question. The best I can do to describe it is to try to parrot what he told me… I tend sometimes to try to overcompensate for my own lack of flexibility by turning too much (which in my case means I also let my hips rotate too far). The net effect is I lose my frontal orientation. When I asked Jimmy (my coach) to explain how I can gauge this, he said, "follow your nose." If you’re rotating too far, your nose will be pointing too far to the right in your backswing. (Yes it’s true, some rotation of the head is okay. But only to a point, which may be different for different players. YMMV.) The important thing is to remember that it’s important not to get into a position from which you can’t recover. And that’s the whole point of maintaining frontal orientation. Turn all you want. Indeed, turn all your flexibility will allow. But don’t do it at the expense of losing frontal orientation. Every time I do, I start flaring shots out to the right. Because I can’t get back. Randy Charter Member, RSG Clique BRAND NEW WEBSITE: www.YouGoGolf.com My RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html Voiceovers/Narration/Production Services: www.randybrownproductions.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As oversimplified as BigHornBill’s solution may sound, I would echo it. But with this caveat: I meant to reply to BHB but accidentally deleted it before I could. I DO feel like I turn my shoulders (I look at Ballard’s video on golfspan once a month<g), but of course my feelings may be lying to me. But I know the following is true: For the last few weeks, for any given bucket of range balls, half of them would go some degree of right. I changed my grip, the majority of the shots went straight or a little left. Two went way left and probably because of what you pointed out. NONE went right. I do get away from a "ground up" swing from time to time if I don’t think about it. What sometimes happen is that I hit a real good one and then I think "great…now I have it…I’m gonna put this one in orbit.." and then I proceed to take up 3 inches of turf before my clubhead reaches the ball. So, yeah, there’s a lot more going on, but the grip I’ve gone back to is the one espoused by Dr. Mann, and that alone should cement my clique membership! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
As oversimplified as BigHornBill’s solution may sound, I would echo it. But with this caveat:
I meant to reply to BHB but accidentally deleted it before I could. I DO feel like I turn my shoulders (I look at Ballard’s video on golfspan once a month<g), but of course my feelings may be lying to me. But I know the following is true: For the last few weeks, for any given bucket of range balls, half of them would go some degree of right. I changed my grip, the majority of the shots went straight or a little left. Two went way left and probably because of what you pointed out. NONE went right. I do get away from a "ground up" swing from time to time if I don’t think about it. What sometimes happen is that I hit a real good one and then I think "great…now I have it…I’m gonna put this one in orbit.." and then I proceed to take up 3 inches of turf before my clubhead reaches the ball. So, yeah, there’s a lot more going on, but the grip I’ve gone back to is the one espoused by Dr. Mann, and that alone should cement my clique membership! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
Dave: Turn your shoulders. I mean, REALLY turn your shoulders. You may say "but I do!", and sincerely believe it, but all I can say is 90% of the slicers I see don’t turn their shoulders enough. Practice 1/2 and 3/4 swings maintaining the shape of the triangle formed by your arms and shoulders. The ball will go straight. The final solution is a little more complicated than this, but this will get you most of the way there. You can compensate with the hands, but the shoulders are the key. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [Lefties: Please hold this post up to a mirror] I have spent a lot of time the last few weeks trying to learn to hit fairway woods. I’ve hit some real good ones but I have shown quite a propensity to go right–anything from a mild fade to a wicked slice into an adjoining fairway. I’ve been stumped by this because since I first bought my clubs last summer, I’ve tended to pull or hook if I miss. I almost NEVER hit it right and I had several instructors/observers tell me I had a "good player’s problem." But all my playing up until recently was with 5 iron or shorter. I would use a 3-wood off the tee and would often hook it into big trouble. Towards the end of this summer I started a series of lesson with a pro (a card carrying PGA type) who changed my grip. It seemed to help my mid to short iron play, but then I started my effort on longer clubs with the results mentioned above. I’ve read lots of instructional material that stated the left hand grip was the prime determinant of where the club face points at impact. And as is common in this game, I’ve also read that the right hand is the key to squaring up. My left hand was already as strong as I thought I dare go (two…maybe three knuckles showing). So today I headed to the range at lunch time (3 minutes, 23 seconds from the office) and tried going back to my stronger right hand grip. Presto! So long slice. Hit a large bucket and not a single ball headed right except for a couple of good looking draws that started that way but came back to the target line. The bad news is that I did manage a couple of wicked hooks, but I feel I’m much closer to having a tee game (and long fairway game) than I’ve had recently. Hopefully it’s just a little fine tuning on the forward shift and turn before I can start putting it in the fairway with some regularity. Right now I’m using that 16 degree off the tee, but I have a 13* strong 3 on the way from Golfworks. Gonna hit another lunch bucket tomorrow–hopefully with similar results! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Before you buy.
Response:
I seriously disagree with this "single cure". If the grip is too weak, a struggle or in-swing "twist" is not the solution to a slice. I have found in 90% of my teaching experience that slices are products of misinstruction about the grip. SO HERE GOES AN OPINION. MY VOTE. I GET TO VOTE. I VOTE WITH CONVICTION. Of course swing paths contribute, and that is a serious issue too, but "trying to do things" mid swing is not how I go about helping people. Things set into motion BEFORE the swing EVER BEGINS is the reason for most people’s problems: either the setup is faulty, or the swing path is faulty, or the grip GUARANTEES a slice because during the swing the angles and joints are already determined by body joints. (This exact concept was made by the group of scientists behind "Search for the Perfect Swing", so arguing it with me brings you face to face with a pretty impressive indepth battery of experts. Don’t listen to the messenger if you don’t want to, but hear the message…) Here’s how to check your grip strength: (incidentally, how a grip feels – or how it looks — at SETup is virtually irrelevant; what is critical is the angle that is established between the back of the left wristbone and the leading edge of the golf club);, so do this: take a normal golf grip but turn the clubface about 180 degrees out of alignment – i.e., with the face pointed backwards somewhere but anything but square to the target, for the moment. Hold the club at about waist level. Take an easy swing around back and then swing around, but when you get "back to the ball", simply stop your swing. DO NOT DO ANYTHING TO THE ANGLES OF YOUR ARMS, AND DO NOT DO ANYTHING UNNATURAL WHILE YOU MAKE YOUR FORWARD MOTION. Be as mindless and "carefree" as a child with no agenda; just get the club back to a pretend impact position like it was a baseball swing and stop there. THEN, WHILE YOU HOLD YOUR ARMS EXACTLY AS THEY WERE WHEN YOU STOPPED YOUR SWING, loosen your fingers and allow someone to orient the clubface square to the target line. If your club is at waist level at this point, the leading edge should be vertical. If it is lower it is not rocket science to square the clubface to the target line. Then when you have done this, squeeze the grip with your left hand AND OBSERVE the difference between the back of your left hand and the leading edge of the clubface. THAT AMOUNT OF "WEAK OR STRONG" grip is what is probably right for you (subject to minor adjustment as you actually go to use it). The way I frame it is "your club should return to square AUTOMATICALLY WITHOUT ANY IN-SWING TWISTING OR EFFORT to get it square — it will be the natural consequence of your motion. during a swing to square the face, you are very very far from the camp of those whom I see daily as successful. Why on earth do John Daly, DD, Langer, Azinger, Couples, Keuhne, and so many others use a grip where the back of their left hand is at least 45 degrees on TOP of the club? Answer: BECAUSE THAT POSITION GUARANTEES THAT THEIR NATURAL BODY ANGLES AND SWING RETURN THE CLUB TO SQUARE AT IMPACT WITHOUT HAVING TO DO A DAMN THING ABOUT IT DURING THE SWING. So I suggest to people with the problem of slices, LOOK AT THAT FEATURE FIRST. Forgive the shouting (got to go to my Shouter’s anonymous meeting tonight)…, but I absoLUTely must make it emphatic. The caps are for the exact words that need emphasis. Please try to read the sentences out loud and emphasize — not shout- the caps, and then the true meaning will come through. FWIW. These things don’t need a teacher to observe you as much as you yourself to examine in the light of the "common sense" of principles like this. Ok critics: fire away. George
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave: Turn your shoulders. I mean, REALLY turn your shoulders. You may say "but I do!", and sincerely believe it, but all I can say is 90% of the slicers I see don’t turn their shoulders enough. Practice 1/2 and 3/4 swings maintaining the shape of the triangle formed by your arms and shoulders. The ball will go straight. The final solution is a little more complicated than this, but this will get you most of the way there. You can compensate with the hands, but the shoulders are the key. [Lefties: Please hold this post up to a mirror] I have spent a lot of time the last few weeks trying to learn to hit fairway woods. I’ve hit some real good ones but I have shown quite a propensity to go right–anything from a mild fade to a wicked slice into an adjoining fairway. I’ve been stumped by this because since I first bought my clubs last summer, I’ve tended to pull or hook if I miss. I almost NEVER hit it right and I had several instructors/observers tell me I had a "good player’s problem." But all my playing up until recently was with 5 iron or shorter. I would use a 3-wood off the tee and would often hook it into big trouble. Towards the end of this summer I started a series of lesson with a pro (a card carrying PGA type) who changed my grip. It seemed to help my mid to short iron play, but then I started my effort on longer clubs with the results mentioned above. I’ve read lots of instructional material that stated the left hand grip was the prime determinant of where the club face points at impact. And as is common in this game, I’ve also read that the right hand is the key to squaring up. My left hand was already as strong as I thought I dare go (two…maybe three knuckles showing). So today I headed to the range at lunch time (3 minutes, 23 seconds from the office) and tried going back to my stronger right hand grip. Presto! So long slice. Hit a large bucket and not a single ball headed right except for a couple of good looking draws that started that way but came back to the target line. The bad news is that I did manage a couple of wicked hooks, but I feel I’m much closer to having a tee game (and long fairway game) than I’ve had recently. Hopefully it’s just a little fine tuning on the forward shift and turn before I can start putting it in the fairway with some regularity. Right now I’m using that 16 degree off the tee, but I have a 13* strong 3 on the way from Golfworks. Gonna hit another lunch bucket tomorrow–hopefully with similar results! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm Before you buy.
Response:
[Lefties: Please hold this post up to a mirror] I have spent a lot of time the last few weeks trying to learn to hit fairway woods. I’ve hit some real good ones but I have shown quite a propensity to go right–anything from a mild fade to a wicked slice into an adjoining fairway. I’ve been stumped by this because since I first bought my clubs last summer, I’ve tended to pull or hook if I miss. I almost NEVER hit it right and I had several instructors/observers tell me I had a "good player’s problem." But all my playing up until recently was with 5 iron or shorter. I would use a 3-wood off the tee and would often hook it into big trouble. Towards the end of this summer I started a series of lesson with a pro (a card carrying PGA type) who changed my grip. It seemed to help my mid to short iron play, but then I started my effort on longer clubs with the results mentioned above. I’ve read lots of instructional material that stated the left hand grip was the prime determinant of where the club face points at impact. And as is common in this game, I’ve also read that the right hand is the key to squaring up. My left hand was already as strong as I thought I dare go (two…maybe three knuckles showing). So today I headed to the range at lunch time (3 minutes, 23 seconds from the office) and tried going back to my stronger right hand grip. Presto! So long slice. Hit a large bucket and not a single ball headed right except for a couple of good looking draws that started that way but came back to the target line. The bad news is that I did manage a couple of wicked hooks, but I feel I’m much closer to having a tee game (and long fairway game) than I’ve had recently. Hopefully it’s just a little fine tuning on the forward shift and turn before I can start putting it in the fairway with some regularity. Right now I’m using that 16 degree off the tee, but I have a 13* strong 3 on the way from Golfworks. Gonna hit another lunch bucket tomorrow–hopefully with similar results! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX RSG Clique-Associate Member http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm