OK, here goes: I bought a dozen TT Dynamic Gold R300 shafts to put in a set of iron heads — I weight-sorted them, tip-trimmed them and now I find that 3 of the ones I already trimmed as well as 2 of the untrimmed ones won’t fit in the hosels (the other shafts fit in the hosels of these heads, so I’m pretty sure it’s the shafts that are out of spec). They seem to be round and I used a shaft-protector and didn’t clamp them very tightly in the vise when I abraded the tips (and the untrimmed ones haven’t been in the vise at all), so I don’t think I’ve ovalized (squished) them. Is this pretty typical of DGs’ quality control (five out of twelve don’t fit the heads)? And is there anything I can do to get them to fit, or do I just have to get some more shafts to finish the set? — http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=oinesroald Please remove the under_scores if sending me mail.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, here goes: I bought a dozen TT Dynamic Gold R300 shafts to put in a set of iron heads — I weight-sorted them, tip-trimmed them and now I find that 3 of the ones I already trimmed as well as 2 of the untrimmed ones won’t fit in the hosels (the other shafts fit in the hosels of these heads, so I’m pretty sure it’s the shafts that are out of spec). They seem to be round and I used a shaft-protector and didn’t clamp them very tightly in the vise when I abraded the tips (and the untrimmed ones haven’t been in the vise at all), so I don’t think I’ve ovalized (squished) them. Is this pretty typical of DGs’ quality control (five out of twelve don’t fit the heads)? And is there anything I can do to get them to fit, or do I just have to get some more shafts to finish the set? — http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=oinesroald Please remove the under_scores if sending me mail.
There is sometimes a burr on the end of untrimmed shafts that prevents them from being inserted into the hosel. Is there a burr at the end of the shafts you trimmed? How did you trim them? How did you prep them? I’ve often found that steel shafts won’t fit into a hosel until I’ve prepped them, and then they do. I prep steel shafts on a 1" belt sander. It’s surprising how a shaft that won’t fit in a hosel will fit, simply by this sanding process. You’d think there wasn’t enough material being removed, but there obviously is. So in your case, I’d check for a burr on the end, and make sure that they are fully prepped. You want to remove enough material from the end of the shaft that it’s no longer obvious it’s chrome. When I do it, the resulting finish looks somewhat like a satin finish, with almost a tinge of gold to it. The point of prepping, of course, is to give the epoxy something to grab on to. I think of the scratches from sanding the tip as "pores" into which the epoxy is forced when you apply it to the tip. So make sure they’re fully prepped. Mike PS: Smart move buying extra shafts, BTW. — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
: <snip : : There is sometimes a burr on the end of untrimmed shafts that prevents : them from being inserted into the hosel. Is there a burr at the end of : the shafts you trimmed? How did you trim them? : I was hoping you’d reply, Mike! I used the tubing cutter from that $100 Golfworks assembly kit. I didn’t see any burrs, but it was getting late. : How did you prep them? I’ve often found that steel shafts won’t fit : into a hosel until I’ve prepped them, and then they do. : I stuck the shafts in the shaft protector, then into the vise and pulled a strip of 100 grit sandpaper (from the GW kit) over the end of the shaft, as shown in the Maltby book that came in that kit. : I prep steel shafts on a 1" belt sander. It’s surprising how a shaft : that won’t fit in a hosel will fit, simply by this sanding process. : You’d think there wasn’t enough material being removed, but there : obviously is. : : So in your case, I’d check for a burr on the end, and make sure that : they are fully prepped. You want to remove enough material from the end : of the shaft that it’s no longer obvious it’s chrome. When I do it, the : resulting finish looks somewhat like a satin finish, with almost a tinge : of gold to it. They do look satiny, and I think I spent about the same amount of time on all of them, but I could only get five of the heads on for dry-fitting. I don’t see any tinge of gold though. I’ll see if I can find any burrs and knock them off, and sand some more. : The point of prepping, of course, is to give the epoxy something to grab : on to. I think of the scratches from sanding the tip as "pores" into : which the epoxy is forced when you apply it to the tip. : : So make sure they’re fully prepped. : : Mike : : PS: Smart move buying extra shafts, BTW. Seems to me I’ve seen you recommend that here. 
Their weights came in pretty close (within 3 grams from lightest to heaviest), so I chose the second through ninth for the 3-P set, figuring I could use the outliers to build a 2-iron and/or some wedges next… : — : Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com : RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 : RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim : I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
OK, here goes: I bought a dozen TT Dynamic Gold R300 shafts to put in a set of iron heads — I weight-sorted them, tip-trimmed them and now I find that 3 of the ones I already trimmed as well as 2 of the untrimmed ones won’t fit in the hosels (the other shafts fit in the hosels of these heads, so I’m pretty sure it’s the shafts that are out of spec). They seem to be round and I used a shaft-protector and didn’t clamp them very tightly in the vise when I abraded the tips (and the untrimmed ones haven’t been in the vise at all), so I don’t think I’ve ovalized (squished) them. Is this pretty typical of DGs’ quality control (five out of twelve don’t fit the heads)? And is there anything I can do to get them to fit, or do I just have to get some more shafts to finish the set?
What clubheads are you trying to fit up? Did you buy taper tip shafts? You don’t trim those. Are the clubheads taper hosel? You can’t put straight shafts in those.
: : OK, here goes: I bought a dozen TT Dynamic Gold R300 shafts to put in : a set of iron heads — I weight-sorted them, tip-trimmed them and now : I find that 3 of the ones I already trimmed as well as 2 of the : untrimmed ones won’t fit in the hosels (the other shafts fit in the : hosels of these heads, so I’m pretty sure it’s the shafts that are out : of spec). They seem to be round and I used a shaft-protector and : didn’t clamp them very tightly in the vise when I abraded the tips : (and the untrimmed ones haven’t been in the vise at all), so I don’t : think I’ve ovalized (squished) them. : : Is this pretty typical of DGs’ quality control (five out of twelve : don’t fit the heads)? And is there anything I can do to get them to : fit, or do I just have to get some more shafts to finish the set? : : What clubheads are you trying to fit up? : Did you buy taper tip shafts? You don’t trim those. : Are the clubheads taper hosel? You can’t put straight : shafts in those. : : Nope, the shafts are all .370" parallel, the heads are Wishon 550C and 550M, which call for that size. Going to see if I can find and remove burrs and prep the tips some more this evening as Mr. Dalecki suggested. Thanks for your reply. — http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=oinesroald Please remove the under_scores if sending me mail.
i’m not a regular in this group i was just browsing around. i make clubs mostly as a hobby. try a hosel brush inside the hosel to clean it out. this is especially true if the heads were taken off other shafts. i even encountered this problem with new heads. you sound like you should be well supplied. if you don’t have a hosel brush a .38 caliber gun cleaning brush will woek too. good luck i’ll come back in a day or so to see how you did tom kosky staten island
peace and love…….tommy
: i’m not a regular in this group i was just browsing around. i : make clubs mostly as a hobby. try a hosel brush inside the : hosel to clean it out. this is especially true if the heads : were taken off other shafts. i even encountered this problem : with new heads. you sound like you should be well supplied. : if you don’t have a hosel brush a .38 caliber gun cleaning : brush will woek too. good luck i’ll come back in a : day or so to see how you did tom kosky : staten island : : : peace and love…….tommy Thanks, Tom — I don’t have either of those tools, but I don’t think the issue is the hosels anyway, since the heads that don’t go on these particular shafts do go on the others. I’m still working on prepping them…
Thanks, Tom — I don’t have either of those tools, but I don’t think the issue is the hosels anyway, since the heads that don’t go on these particular shafts do go on the others. I’m still working on prepping them…
It shouldn’t be that big a deal, especially with steel. Graphite shafts often have a ton of finish on them causing such a problem, but steel shafts have always slid in pretty easy, with the major thing (other than gunk in the hosel) being the burring thing which was mentioned earlier. I hope you did not trim past the parrallel tip secion of the shaft or maybe the hosels take a taper tip (probably unlikely given your post though) — RSG Masters 2004 pre-preliminary format http://home.att.net/~frostback2002 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=frostback "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are" Joseph Campbell
: :
: : Thanks, Tom — I don’t have either of those tools, but I don’t think : the issue is the hosels anyway, since the heads that don’t go on these : particular shafts do go on the others. I’m still working on prepping : them… : : It shouldn’t be that big a deal, especially with steel. Graphite shafts : often have a ton of finish on them causing such a problem, but steel : shafts have always slid in pretty easy, with the major thing (other than : gunk in the hosel) being the burring thing which was mentioned earlier. : I hope you did not trim past the parrallel tip secion of the shaft or : maybe the hosels take a taper tip (probably unlikely given your post : though) : I didn’t think it would be (that big a deal) either, but I’ve sanded and sanded and sanded the shaft I cut for the 7-iron — the first one that didn’t fit — taken a file to it, even trimmed it 1/4" shorter using a new cutting wheel in the tubing cutter, thinking the cut itself might have been bad. I don’t see any burrs, the abraded area is satiny and has that gold tinge Mike mentioned and still no joy. At this point I’m just glad I knew enough to dry-fit them before messing with the epoxy… : — : : RSG Masters 2004 pre-preliminary format : : http://home.att.net/~frostback2002 : : RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=frostback : : "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are" : : Joseph Campbell
remove the chrome uniformly down to where the shaft looks "brassy". do not remove too much of the shaft metal, this will weaken the shaft, and might cause a head to fly off later on. there is such a thing as reaming the hosel a bit – to get a fit. I use a reamer slightly larger in dia. than the id of the hosel. you can also use a drill bit for this purpose. there are several ways to overcome the problem – experience helps you find it, quicker than trial, and error. no big deal, it happens. work around it, or through it.:–) good luck. —– OK, here goes: I bought a dozen TT Dynamic Gold R300 shafts to put in a set of iron heads — I weight-sorted them, tip-trimmed them and now I find that 3 of the ones I already trimmed as well as 2 of the untrimmed ones won’t fit in the hosels (the other shafts fit in the hosels of these heads, so I’m pretty sure it’s the shafts that are out of spec). They seem to be round and I used a shaft-protector and didn’t clamp them very tightly in the vise when I abraded the tips (and the untrimmed ones haven’t been in the vise at all), so I don’t think I’ve ovalized (squished) them. m h o
The trajectory was normal, it’s just that even though the ball was cold, and it was about 45* out, I still managed to add 15 yards to what a normal shot in those conditions would have been like. It was due to the Giant Geomagnetic Storm. Highly charged particles in the air. Happens to me all the time.
Damn. It ended just as I got the first batch of Neodymium Iron Boron infused-cover Pro-V1$’s I ordered from Golfsmith. –Blair "I was gonna go on tour!"
So what do I do? I put a nice swing on the ball and I airmail the green. I hit that ball at least 170 in the air, maybe 175. I’ve noticed this lately in that I’m just killing shots that I’m not swinging overly hard on. The only thing I can figure is that my slower tempoed swing is allowing me a very nice lag, and this lag is creating terrific power at impact for me.
Or for anyone who can do it. Here’s some data using rough estimates of Ernie Els swing timings and a degenerate 2-phase model of a swing. Ernie takes about 8 video frames from top to impact, including about 1 frame for the release. How much does a small change in the release point alter the clubhead speed at impact? ernie ernie+ ernie- inputs: total swing time (seconds) 0.2667 0.2667 0.2667 release interval (seconds) 0.0333 0.0300 0.0367 calculated values: release delay 87.5% 88.8% 86.3% arm angle at release (radians) 1.37 1.39 1.35 arm angle at release (degrees) 78.75 79.88 77.63 arm angular velocity (rad/sec) 5.89 5.89 5.89 club angular velocity relative to grip 47.12 52.36 42.84 arm length (meters) 0.95 0.95 0.95 club length (meters) 1.25 1.25 1.25 arm end velocity (m/s) 5.60 5.60 5.60 club component of club end velocity 58.90 65.45 53.55 club head velocity (m/s) 64.50 71.05 59.15 club head velocity (mph) 144.32 158.96 132.33 result: impact speed difference +10.1% -8.3% The impact speed seems rather high, but it is clearly very sensitive to perturbations of the input measurements, so the imprecision of the TV "frame" as a swing timer is probably the main reason for the odd result. For more accurate timings we would need a slow-motion camera. Also, the arm and club lengths are simply guesses. That said, it’s still instructive to see how big a difference in impact speed there is for a very small difference in release timing, holding the other variables constant. Delaying release by just 1/300th of a second (1.1 degrees) provides a 10% increase in impact speed for the same total downswing time. Casting by roughly the same amount robs over 8% of impact speed. The same change in impact speed without a change in release angle would require roughly 10% more or less arm speed and 10% more or less force from the major muscles in the swing. This makes clear to us why trying to overpower the ball seems to do so little compared with relaxing and releasing properly. But, releasing late requires skill at getting the clubhead into the right alignment with the ball. The higher shaft speed makes vertical accuracy at impact harder to acheive (and we’re probably bothered by lateral accuracy as well), so we end up trying to control it by keeping the clubhead closer to the median vertical alignment by slowing the release. Which costs us dearly in distance. –Blair "Where are my Bobby Jones tapes?"
But if I had to pay for every round at the time I play it, I might do it differently. And it would be very hard to pay that kind of money for a "practice" round where do little but try things out.
If I go out for a "practice" round, I tell myself that in before I hit the first shot, knowing that the score won’t count towards handicap, than I can drop a few balls, and PRACTICE. I have a course about 1/4 mile from me that I can go out on a Sunday eve and play alone and hardly see anyone else, and it only costs me $13 for 9. I’ve gotten done dead tired because I’ve hit so many shots on the course (by choice!).
So what do I do? I put a nice swing on the ball and I airmail the green. I hit that ball at least 170 in the air, maybe 175. I’ve noticed this lately in that I’m just killing shots that I’m not swinging overly hard on. I’ve noticed that also. I’ve been working a lot on tempo, swinging the club easier rather than trying to beat the crap out of the ball, and strangely enough the ball goes farther.
Another explanation could be that you were playing in the rain. If the ball is wet, it takes a lot of spin off and you can end up hitting a flier. I noticed this playing in the rain also.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what do I do? I put a nice swing on the ball and I airmail the green. I hit that ball at least 170 in the air, maybe 175. I’ve noticed this lately in that I’m just killing shots that I’m not swinging overly hard on. I’ve noticed that also. I’ve been working a lot on tempo, swinging the club easier rather than trying to beat the crap out of the ball, and strangely enough the ball goes farther. Another explanation could be that you were playing in the rain. If the ball is wet, it takes a lot of spin off and you can end up hitting a flier. I noticed this playing in the rain also.
Not a bad idea, though in this case I don’t know that it applies. The drizzle had stopped on that hole, and I’d pulled that ball out of my pocket in any case. The trajectory was normal, it’s just that even though the ball was cold, and it was about 45* out, I still managed to add 15 yards to what a normal shot in those conditions would have been like. I wonder if, at this late date in the season, my swing is changing again. I think I’m getting better lag, a much later release than I was. Not all the time, mind you, but enough that it’s been apparent something different is going on. This isn’t the only green I’ve airmailed in the last week or so. I can think of at least three other occasions where I did exactly the same thing–airmailed the green. I’m playing again today. I’ll pay a little closer attention to it. I might even play w/ ProV1s today as the leaf problem seems to be less significant than it had been. Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
The trajectory was normal, it’s just that even though the ball was cold, and it was about 45* out, I still managed to add 15 yards to what a normal shot in those conditions would have been like.
It was due to the Giant Geomagnetic Storm. Highly charged particles in the air. Happens to me all the time.
I wonder if, at this late date in the season, my swing is changing again.
Maybe the Dalecki Headcover Drill is rearing its…uh…head. -b
In weather such as this morning (freezing rain in Boulder), the trick is to get to the ball before it is frozen solid to the ground. Hey, aren’t you serious about this game? 8^)
In weather such as this morning (freezing rain in Boulder), the trick is to get to the ball before it is frozen solid to the ground. Hey, aren’t you serious about this game? 8^)
I went out today in the cold & rain. It wasn’t as much fun as I thought it would be.
I got out for 9 holes this pm and didn’t post my score for handicap purposes. Shame on me! (Well, not really, but there’s more on that below). Of course, it was 45 degrees, drizzling, and we didn’t have much chance to warm up because we were pushing against darkness falling earlier due to the weather and time change. We hit a few extra shots, and mostly just enjoyed being the only ones on the entire course. I wanted to see what I could do under the conditions, how the ball would responde, like that; despite the fact that my winter golf gloves got wet, and I was wet, and it was cold, I still hit a few good shots. In fact, I’m becoming quite confused by the distances I’m getting. On one hole, a 162-yard par 3, I pulled out a 6-iron, thinking that even that might be a stretch given how cold and drizzly it was, but better to be short than long on this hole. So what do I do? I put a nice swing on the ball and I airmail the green. I hit that ball at least 170 in the air, maybe 175. I’ve noticed this lately in that I’m just killing shots that I’m not swinging overly hard on. The only thing I can figure is that my slower tempoed swing is allowing me a very nice lag, and this lag is creating terrific power at impact for me. I can’t think of any other thing that can produce that kind of distance with a cold ProV1 when it’s 45 degrees. Very weird. BTW, as I was golfing this pm, I realized something about the "post your score and play by the rules" topic that hasn’t been addressed before. I think that one thing which affects people’s opinion on this is how they pay for their golf. I’m a member of a club, so every time I want to golf, I just go out. If it’s nine holes, or 18, or just a few holes, it doesn’t matter–my greens fees are covered with my annual dues. It’s no big deal for me to play a practice round, trying out this or that, essentially throwing away the opportunity to play for score, because it’s not costing me anything that isn’t already a sunk cost. But if I had to pay for every round at the time I play it, I might do it differently. And it would be very hard to pay that kind of money for a "practice" round where do little but try things out. Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
I got out for 9 holes this pm and didn’t post my score for handicap purposes. Shame on me! (Well, not really, but there’s more on that below). Of course, it was 45 degrees, drizzling, and we didn’t have much chance to warm up because we were pushing against darkness falling earlier due to the weather and time change. We hit a few extra shots, and mostly just enjoyed being the only ones on the entire course. I wanted to see what I could do under the conditions, how the ball would responde, like that; despite the fact that my winter golf gloves got wet, and I was wet, and it was cold, I still hit a few good shots.
<details snipped But if I had to pay for every round at the time I play it, I might do it differently. And it would be very hard to pay that kind of money for a "practice" round where do little but try things out.
I don’t see any problem with it, Mike. It’s the difference between going out to play a regulation game of golf and going out to work on your skills. You can bet that when pros go out during the day for some practice or to work on their swing, they aren’t recording the score for the record. Tennis players practice on the court, football players practice on the field, and there’s no reason golfers shouldn’t practice on the golf course. There’s only so much you can do on a driving range or practice green. If there’s no one behind me and I’m by myself, I’ll sometimes hit two or three balls from the same spot to help my technique for that particular lie, seeing what works and what doesn’t, or I’ll play a game of "worst ball" with myself. (It’s like best ball, but I hit from the worst of two or three shots instead of the best.) Playing every game for the record doesn’t help much if I hit a bad shot and don’t take the opportunity to see what would make it better. Eliyahu
So what do I do? I put a nice swing on the ball and I airmail the green. I hit that ball at least 170 in the air, maybe 175. I’ve noticed this lately in that I’m just killing shots that I’m not swinging overly hard on.
I’ve noticed that also. I’ve been working a lot on tempo, swinging the club easier rather than trying to beat the crap out of the ball, and strangely enough the ball goes farther. The key though, is to SWING the club freely and not tense up. The other thing that seems to help is to get the lower body moving first, but in a controlled manner so that you are in the right position to support the downswing. Being slow with the lower body move is OK. Adding more speed (like Tiger) is even better, provided it is controlled and coordinated; otherwise it is just wasted. BTW, as I was golfing this pm, I realized something about the "post your score and play by the rules" topic that hasn’t been addressed before. I think that one thing which affects people’s opinion on this is how they pay for their golf. I’m a member of a club, so every time I want to golf, I just go out. If it’s nine holes, or 18, or just a few holes, it doesn’t matter–my greens fees are covered with my annual dues. It’s no big deal for me to play a practice round, trying out this or that, essentially throwing away the opportunity to play for score, because it’s not costing me anything that isn’t already a sunk cost. But if I had to pay for every round at the time I play it, I might do it differently. And it would be very hard to pay that kind of money for a "practice" round where do little but try things out.
I have a monthly membership at a small executive course where I play a lot of practice rounds when the course isn’t busy. On some holes, I might practice hitting 10 drives off the tee and then go pick up the balls and go on to the next hole, where I might practice sand shots, or different length pitch shots, etc. I don’t see anything wrong with it, the pros play similar practice rounds every week. I used to do this on a regular muni course, too. But the greens fees were pretty reasonable, about $15 at twilight. I would be reluctant to pay $30 or more for a practice round.
Never thought I’d shoot six pars and a birdie and not break 90–but I managed it today: Birdie – 1 Par – 6 Bogey – 4 Double – 3 Triple – 4
Think I got you beat Dave: In May I had Birdie – 3 Par – 1 Bogey – 6 Dubya – 6 Triple – 2 On this round I was putting well but chipping awfully….i would like to think I have improved in this latter category but I still have days (Sunday for example). bill-o
Here’s strange…I average around 89.This year like most pretty inconsistant.Played 2 rounds in last month at a pretty difficult links course.first round 88 next round 98…heres the strange part; both times on the 9 hole my 9 iron second shot wound up less than 1 foot from hole for birdies. I never had this happen before .Pretty whierd.The 2nd time I looked long and hard for my drive in rough before finding it…Glad I did.
: Never thought I’d shoot six pars and a birdie and not break 90–but I managed it : today: : : Birdie – 1 : Par – 6 : Bogey – 4 : Double – 3 : Triple – 4
I wish I was that consistent 
Birdie – 3 Par – 4 Bogie – 4 Double – 0 Triple – 7 95 with 3 birdies (par 73) –back to fading the ball next week in an effort to stay out of the trees. Adrian
Yeah, it’s 10 degrees cooler here in Toronto and I’m playing tomorrow morning at a predicted 35
I hit a friends ‘Callaway X-SomethingOrOther 6 iron the other day and, not surprisingly, I hit it a good 5-10 yards further than my 8 year old Hogan Apex 6 iron. In thinking about this something occurred to me (Miss Anne, here is your opening for this thread). I recall reading or hearing recently that Mickleson’s PW has a 45 degree loft, which is roughly what a 9 iron was 25 years ago. Assuming that shaft length for a given club ‘name’ is the same as they used to be, then (if you ignore the numbers of the clubheads), what has really happened is that ‘modern irons’ have shorter shaft lengths than they did 25 years ago for the same loft. In the Mickleson case his 45 degree club has a PW length shaft where 25 years ago his 45 degree club would have had a 9 iron length shaft. I used to think that if I wanted ‘modern lofts’ that I could simply change the numbers on my existing irons. I could call the 7i an 8i, etc. But then I realized that that really isn’t the same thing as it doesn’t change the loft/shaft length equation. Is anyone aware of any work done on the optimum shaft lengths for various swingspeeds? As shafts get longer control goes down. But as shafts get longer you can use more loft which will reduce sidespin (which would mean ‘more control’ in the case of not trying to work the ball L-R or R-L). I realize that marketing considerations have driven much of what has happened to irons, but I was curious as to whether or not there was any serious analysis out there regarding optimization of shaft lengths in irons. I wonder if the best ‘8 iron’ for me might be a 6 iron with a PW length shaft (and appropriate lie changes, of course). Or I guess I could always shorten up my grip. Thoughts/comments? Thanks. dave
I hit a friends ‘Callaway X-SomethingOrOther 6 iron the other day and, not surprisingly, I hit it a good 5-10 yards further than my 8 year old Hogan Apex 6 iron. In thinking about this something occurred to me (Miss Anne, here is your opening for this thread). I recall reading or hearing recently that Mickleson’s PW has a 45 degree loft, which is roughly what a 9 iron was 25 years ago. Assuming that shaft length for a given club ‘name’ is the same as they used to be, then (if you ignore the numbers of the clubheads), what has really happened is that ‘modern irons’ have shorter shaft lengths than they did 25 years ago for the same loft.
No, clubs have also gotten longer. What’s happened is basically that the numbers on the bottom of the club have changed.
This didn’t seem to be true in the case of the two clubs that I was comparing. So I took a look at http://www.swingweight.com/oem_iron_specs.htm and compared the shaft lengths of all the 6i’s listed with lofts of 30 degrees or less vs. the shaft lengths of all the 6i’s listed with lofts of 32 degrees or greater. The 30 degrees or less clubs had an average length of 37.36 inches where the 32 degrees or greater clubs had an average length of 37.28 inches. So there is a slight tendency here to longer club lengths with more aggressive lofts. FWIW (not much, I guess). dave
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hit a friends ‘Callaway X-SomethingOrOther 6 iron the other day and, not surprisingly, I hit it a good 5-10 yards further than my 8 year old Hogan Apex 6 iron. In thinking about this something occurred to me (Miss Anne, here is your opening for this thread). I recall reading or hearing recently that Mickleson’s PW has a 45 degree loft, which is roughly what a 9 iron was 25 years ago. Assuming that shaft length for a given club ‘name’ is the same as they used to be, then (if you ignore the numbers of the clubheads), what has really happened is that ‘modern irons’ have shorter shaft lengths than they did 25 years ago for the same loft. No, clubs have also gotten longer. What’s happened is basically that the numbers on the bottom of the club have changed.
This didn’t seem to be true in the case of the two clubs that I was comparing. So I took a look at
http://www.swingweight.com/oem_iron_specs.htm and compared the shaft lengths of all the 6i’s listed with lofts of 30 degrees or less vs. the shaft lengths of all the 6i’s listed with lofts of 32 degrees or greater. The 30 degrees or less clubs had an average length of 37.36 inches where the 32 degrees or greater clubs had an average length of 37.28 inches. So there is a slight tendency here to longer club lengths with more aggressive
lofts. I mean clubs have gotten longer over time, not today depending on different lofts.
This didn’t seem to be true in the case of the two clubs that I was comparing. So I took a look at http://www.swingweight.com/oem_iron_specs.htm and compared the shaft lengths of all the 6i’s listed with lofts of 30 degrees or less vs. the shaft lengths of all the 6i’s listed with lofts of 32 degrees or greater.
<snipped Dave, Jeff was comparing modern clubs to older models. 20 years ago most 6 irons had a loft of about 36* and the shaft length was typically 37". Modern 6 irons have 30*-32* of loft and have 37.5" shafts. That is the same as a 5 iron from 20 years ago. But there are major differences between a 20 year old 5 iron and a modern 6 iron, even though both may have 37.5" steel shafts and 31* of loft. The shafts today are lighter and more consistent, but the big difference in the clubhead. Modern clubheads have a much lower center of gravity, a more rounded leading edge, a wider sole, perimeter weighting and the size of the club head is much larger, without being heavier. All these things make the club much easier to hit and help make the ball fly higher and straighter. — Dan Driscoll Member – NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
Re: Attached Thanks Jeff (and Dan). I had assumed (based on limited information) that lofts were the only major changes over the years. Sounds like it really is (from a loft/clublength perspective) a renumbering. I am still curious if anyone out there has an opinion on the trade-offs on clublengths for a given loft (or vice versa). I got to this point while continually dithering on whether or not to reshaft my irons. I’m not a particularly long hitter and one thing that I have noticed is that there really isn’t much difference in the carry of my 3i vs. 4i (I tend to be a low-ball hitter, but nothing extreme). I had considered having my 3i bent down a couple degrees to try and get better yardage spacing between my 3i and 4i. But since I recently dropped my 3i in favor of a 7W, the priority of this has gone way down. But if I do reshaft then I have to decide what to do with my 3i (which I will carry on very windy days). Less loft is probably not the answer for me. But a longer shaft (more clubhead speed) might be a reasonable solution. And this thought led to me wondering just what is ‘right’ about 37.75 inches for a 28 degree club, etc. dave
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This didn’t seem to be true in the case of the two clubs that I was comparing. So I took a look at http://www.swingweight.com/oem_iron_specs.htm and compared the shaft lengths of all the 6i’s listed with lofts of 30 degrees or less vs. the shaft lengths of all the 6i’s listed with lofts of 32 degrees or greater. The 30 degrees or less clubs had an average length of 37.36 inches where the 32 degrees or greater clubs had an average length of 37.28 inches. So there is a slight tendency here to longer club lengths with more aggressive lofts. I mean clubs have gotten longer over time, not today depending on different lofts.
But there are major differences between a 20 year old 5 iron and a modern 6 iron, even though both may have 37.5" steel shafts and 31* of loft. The shafts today are lighter and more consistent…
I can see more consistent, but why lighter? I know they *can* be lighter, but if we’re talking about steel shafts in irons, aren’t the typical Dynamics and Apexes the same weight as before?
No, clubs have also gotten longer. What’s happened is basically that the numbers on the bottom of the club have changed.
True. The original reason for this was that the cavity back clubs hit the ball much higher for a given loft. Since the higher flight increased the effect of the wind on shots they decided to strengthen the lofts to keep ball flight down. This made the clubs hit further. Because the clubs hit further, they were made with longer shafts to increase the consistency of the longer hits. Lie angles didn’t really change, because most people want upright lies to compensate for their slice swings. Net result, what Jeff said… the numbers on the bottom changed. Plus the lie angles are more upright. Instead of going further along this path, recently the manufacturers have simply been making all the lie angles more upright. This is good if you are 6′4" with a slice swing and not so good if you are 5′6" with a hook swing. Cheers, Loren
I can see more consistent, but why lighter? I know they *can* be lighter, but if we’re talking about steel shafts in irons, aren’t the typical Dynamics and Apexes the same weight as before?
I believe older steel shafts (20+ years) were in the 140-150 gram range, while standard stiff shafts today are 130 grams. Several reasons would account for this: improved manufacturing and design techniques; improved alloys used for shaft manufacture. — Dan Driscoll Member – NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
No, clubs have also gotten longer. What’s happened is basically that the numbers on the bottom of the club have changed. True. The original reason for this was that the cavity back clubs hit the ball much higher for a given loft. Since the higher flight increased the effect of the wind on shots they decided to strengthen the lofts to keep ball flight down. This made the clubs hit further. Because the clubs hit further, they were made with longer shafts to increase the consistency of the longer hits.
I don’t follow that last sentence. Plus the lie angles are more upright. Instead of going further along this path, recently the manufacturers have simply been making all the lie angles more upright. This is good if you are 6′4" with a slice swing and not so good if you are 5′6" with a hook swing.
Yes, I forgot about that part – agreed.
No, clubs have also gotten longer. What’s happened is basically that the numbers on the bottom of the club have changed. True. The original reason for this was that the cavity back clubs hit the ball much higher for a given loft.
I think the reason was probably marketing. Callaway has been the master of this. Most every male golfer has a testosterone problem. We have to hit the stiffest shaft made and hit a particular iron farther than out playing partners. So what did Callaway do, deloft each club so you hit the ball farther with a particular number club. Now you can say that you can hit the ball X yards farther with this new Callaway club than you can with your old clubs. It also created a market for a new "gap" club to fill that 10 degree difference between your pitching and sand wedge. To fix they shaft problem, simply call a regular flex a stiff flex, you like what you read and end up with a proper shaft flex.
How far do you hit it? And what iron do you hit from 150 yards by way of a reference point? B. J. Wilkinson
My nominal 150 yard club is my 8 iron. I play older Golfsmith Tour Cavity irons that have somewhat more traditional lofts, I believe the 8 iron loft is 41*. I hit my 3 iron about 200-205, but the Quickstrike is a little longer, 210-215 yards. It has a Rifle Light 6.0 wood shaft, 39.5", vs. 39" for the 3 iron. When I put the Quickstrike in the bag I also dropped my 2 iron and replaced it with a 5 wood. — Dan Driscoll Member – NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=driscolld
With the utility / hybrid clubs, has any one seen fit to replace any club(s) in their bag with them? The 22* Quickstrike has replace my 3 iron.
How far do you hit it? And what iron do you hit from 150 yards by way of a reference point? B. J. Wilkinson
I have a 24* Taylormade Rescue 7W that I was using up until a few months ago. I’ve since gone back to using my 3I and dropping my gap wedge to stay within 14 clubs. I made some swing changes and now draw/hook much more than I fade/slice, and the offset on the rescue club was causing a large hook every time I hit it. I also switched to Big Bertha II driver and fairway woods, and feel very comfortable hitting my 5W out of rough, so there is less need for the rescue club.
You dropped the 7W and the GW and added the 3I to stay within 14 clubs? Did you used to use 15 clubs, or did you add a second club as well? I’m hitting my 5W about 200 yds, but my 4I only about 170 yds, so there was a significant gap. Thus, the 3I made it back into the bag. The 3I is a lot more hook-resistant than the 7W, which now is a very good thing. Funny how things change.
I would rather have a club able to go 110 yards (or whatever your GW went) than 185 yards – unless my home course had a 185 yard par-3. But even there, I am learning to hit my 200 yard club short.
With the utility / hybrid clubs, has any one seen fit to replace any club(s) in their bag with them?
Yeah – lately, anyway. I’ve got a TM Rescue Mid 2, which is 16 degrees. It plays like a four-wood. So right now I’ve got my big stick, my three-wood, this 16* rescue and a real 2-iron. So here’s my long game – Driver – 8.5* – 280 3W – 15.5* – 260 on tee, 240 off the deck Rescue 2 – 16* – 240 on tee, 220 off the deck. 2 Iron – 18* – 230 on tee – more useful for ballflight control in wind. The 3 and Rescue get the ball up – I use the deuce to keep it down. I don’t hit it off the deck unless I have an absolute perfect lie – I’ll reach for the Rescue 9.5 times out of 10. It’s about 220 off the deck, if you can hit it. 4 Iron – 200 off the deck, little more teed up. I can choke down the 3W, Rescue or 2-iron to take 5-10 yards off it. A choked down Rescue is my 210 club, which is also my 3-iron distance; therefore I leave the three-iron in the trunk of the car. I’ve only really recently decided on this combination, but so far I’ve been a big fan. I just don’t hit my 3-iron, ever…I’m always under 200 or I’m over 220 out. I’ve also got the room to do that ’cause I’m only carrying 3 wedges (48* PW, 54* SW, 60* LW) and I’m very comfortable with half and 3/4 shots. Prof. Rev. Todd "Runyan" McGillivray, Esq. http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ Emailing me? tmcg at sasktel dot net. "Even the Mona Lisa’s fallin’ apart." – Fight Club
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I was using: D,5W,7W,4-9I,PW,GW,SW,LW for a while. Sometimes, I would substitute the 3W for the 5W, and other times I would drop the driver. Then I bought my new BBII driver, 3W & 5W, and decided I just couldn’t live without ANY of those, so out went the 7W. But that left a big gap, and I kept running into 180-190 yd par 3 holes, so the decision to drop the gap wedge. If it weren’t for the fact that my 3W has broken 3 times, I might drop my 5W. The gap between my 22
Right – where to begin ? I played about a lot – a real lot – over the spring and summer with my main set and finally settled on- Shaft – RP Rifles, blanks built to D1 ,5i is 38" and final frequency follows the RP scale utilising a 3" clamp and ~ 5.0. These are installed in Ping i3’s that had originally had JZS that I switched out for DGS tapers. I found the original JZs heavy – funnily enough they
Right – where to begin ? I played about a lot – a real lot – over the spring and summer with my main set and finally settled on- Shaft – RP Rifles, blanks built to D1 ,5i is 38" and final frequency follows the RP scale utilising a 3" clamp and ~ 5.0. These are installed in Ping i3’s that had originally had JZS that I switched out for DGS tapers. I found the original JZs heavy – funnily enough they
measured between 5.0 and 5.5 on RPs scale. The DGS were ok weight wise but too stiff in the short irons. What I fancy trying is getting some Dynacraft PC3’s and building an MOI set. But how is it done ? 0.4" differential with 7g head increment 0,5" differential with 6g head increment But what is the start point ? Say my favourite feeling club is my 37" D1 7i. If I do I use 0.4" up and down to get the finished lengths – my 3i will be 38.6" and my PW 35.8". What about shaft prepping ? Do I go with a standard frequency slope ? Also – what if my favourite club is a scabby old 5 wood ? Sure I can measure the SW and the frequency – but what about the MOI ? Thanks for reading, Mark
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Right – where to begin ? I played about a lot – a real lot – over the spring and summer with my main set and finally settled on- Shaft – RP Rifles, blanks built to D1 ,5i is 38" and final frequency follows the RP scale utilising a 3" clamp and ~ 5.0. These are installed in Ping i3’s that had originally had JZS that I switched out for DGS tapers. I found the original JZs heavy – funnily enough they measured between 5.0 and 5.5 on RPs scale. The DGS were ok weight wise but too stiff in the short irons. What I fancy trying is getting some Dynacraft PC3’s and building an MOI set. But how is it done ? 0.4" differential with 7g head increment 0,5" differential with 6g head increment
I think the 0.5" differential would have a 8g head increment. I’m doing this from memory, so I could be wrong. But what is the start point ? Say my favourite feeling club is my 37" D1 7i. If I do I use 0.4" up and down to get the finished lengths – my 3i will be 38.6" and my PW 35.8". What about shaft prepping ? Do I go with a standard frequency slope ?
If you go that way, and don’t have a frequency meter, then use standard tipping instructions. That should be close enough. Your other alternative is to buy a set of pre-matched shafts. I did that once for a MOI matched set, and checked the freqencies a few months later (after I bought a frequency meter) and they checked out pretty well. I think one iron was a half flex stiff. Also – what if my favourite club is a scabby old 5 wood ? Sure I can measure the SW and the frequency – but what about the MOI ? Thanks for reading, Mark
If you search Google for MOI and my name, you should be able to find a posting I did recently on measuring MOI. Fellow rsg’re Thomas Prufer built a pendulum device that can be plugged into the game port on a computer and he and I wrote some software for it. You can clamp your club, let it rock back and forth and the software will report the MOI of your club. If this is going to be a winter project, you might want to consider doing the same thing. If you go back a couple of years in your Google search, you can find a post I made on how to accomplish the same thing using a stopwatch. It’s a trade off. Building something like Thomas’ rig will buy you increased accuracy and speed. I can MOI match a set of irons 4 or 5 times faster with it than I could with the stop watch and the answers are very repeatable. On the other hand, if this is something you’re only going to do once, maybe it’s not worth the trouble to build the rig. you a paper Thomas wrote that shows how he made the rig and you can have a copy of the software that does the measurement and calculates the MOI. The PC3 heads are good heads, but there is one practical consideration you should consider. If you go with the .5" length increments, you’ll have to add a lot of weight to the short irons and will probably have to drill some out of the long ones. You might not be able to get enough weight in the short irons just using tip weights. You should consider a head that has a hosel weight port (Golfsmith or Tom Wishon). You can get plenty of weight in those. Good luck on the project and don’t hesitate to ask any questions. Kenny — Kenny Stultz – Troll and SPAM intolerant RSG Rollcall: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=stultzk "Golf is the only sport where a precise knowledge of the Rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship"
I recently built a new set of MOI matched irons. I weighed all of the shafts and heads and input the data into Kenny Stultz’s MOI/swingweight calculator. It turned out that a .4 inch length increment was pretty close to a perfect MOI match. I had to add about 4g to the hosel port on one clubhead that was out of spec. I have no way to measure MOI, but I checked the predicted swingweights and they were spot on. The result – I really like the clubs. Long irons in particular seem to yield better results than my old set. — –Robert Simpson– USGA Certified Bogey Golfer rsg roll call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=simpsonr
Thanks Kenny and Robert, I will do a google and no doubt will be in touch Looks like Winter’s definitely here in Scotland so the timescale for the project allows plenty of planning etc before I commit to any building. This also allows me to try and get some GS or Wishon heads from the US – where I’ll be getting the shafts from anyway so I might do a double order Thanks again Mark
Do you think she should call a penalty on herself just in case she grounded the club and honestly didn’t know it? Maybe we all should take a penalty on every shot just in case the ball moved when we weren’t looking.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It isn’t that she lied as much as she gave herself the benefit of the doubt. She didn’t intend to ground the club, but might have. The point of the setup ritual is putting yourself on automatic pilot. It is possible that she got into the routine and actually grounded the club. Unless Zapruder was there, nobody including Sophie will every know. It was Robert Damron, and it struck me that that was a brilliant way of handling things. It gives you an iron clad "alibi" if something happens. I don’t really see why. If someone’s going to lie, what difference does it make when? It’s not about telling lies; it’s about informing your partners of what actions you plan to take in potentially problematic situations. For example, if Sophie had told Julie that she was not going to sole her club in this circumstance, Julie would have been able to confirm that to the officials, interviewers and others immediately, and there would have been no question. As it is, many people, you included it seems, think Sophie lied. — Doug Main "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."
It isn’t that she lied as much as she gave herself the benefit of the doubt. She didn’t intend to ground the club, but might have. The point of the setup ritual is putting yourself on automatic pilot. It is possible that she got into the routine and actually grounded the club. Unless Zapruder was there, nobody including Sophie will every know.
You’re saying she should have penalized herself "just in case" she accidentally, unknowingly did something she specifically set out not to do?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was Robert Damron, and it struck me that that was a brilliant way of handling things. It gives you an iron clad "alibi" if something happens. I don’t really see why. If someone’s going to lie, what difference does it make when? It’s not about telling lies; it’s about informing your partners of what actions you plan to take in potentially problematic situations. For example, if Sophie had told Julie that she was not going to sole her club in this circumstance, Julie would have been able to confirm that to the officials, interviewers and others immediately, and there would have been no question. As it is, many people, you included it seems, think Sophie lied.
No, I just don’t follow the logic that you need an alibi. As a practical matter, I see your point. In the sense that she’s honest or not, it doesn’t matter. If she’s the sort of person that would lie, then she could merely tell her playing partner that she wasn’t going to ground her club. No one would still know but her, unless Juli watched from 12" away, which for sure she wouldn’t. My point was that either she’s honest, or she’s not.
Why? Don’t you have to tell them you are changing balls? Don’t you have to tell them you are hitting a provisional? You don’t have to tell them you’re changing balls (I don’t think).
I think you do… You do have to tell them about a provisional. You don’t have to tell them you’re taking an unplayable lie. You don’t have to tell them you’re taking relief from ground under repair. You don’t have to tell them you didn’t ground your club in the bunker. You don’t have to tell them you whiffed a tap in putt. You don’t have to tell them you’re taking a practice stroke, not a real stroke. etc.
You may not have to do any of these things, yet it is not unusull to do so.
Why? Don’t you have to tell them you are changing balls? Don’t you have to tell them you are hitting a provisional? You don’t have to tell them you’re changing balls (I don’t think). I think you do…
Only if you are changing your ball, because it is unfit to play with, during the play of a hole. Between holes a player is free to change their ball whenever they wish to and without informing their playing partners. Crispin Roche
Gustasfon should have been DQ’ed. Those girls from Europe who stutter aren’t doing nearly enough to promote the tour. She should be doing more interviews and showing some skin from her hot bod and kissing Votaw after her rounds to still up some attention for the tour. Jan
It isn’t that she lied as much as she gave herself the benefit of the doubt. She didn’t intend to ground the club, but might have. The point of the setup ritual is putting yourself on automatic pilot. It is possible that she got into the routine and actually grounded the club. Unless Zapruder was there, nobody including Sophie will every know.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was Robert Damron, and it struck me that that was a brilliant way of handling things. It gives you an iron clad "alibi" if something happens. I don’t really see why. If someone’s going to lie, what difference does it make when? It’s not about telling lies; it’s about informing your partners of what actions you plan to take in potentially problematic situations. For example, if Sophie had told Julie that she was not going to sole her club in this circumstance, Julie would have been able to confirm that to the officials, interviewers and others immediately, and there would have been no question. As it is, many people, you included it seems, think Sophie lied. — Doug Main "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."
Why? Don’t you have to tell them you are changing balls? Don’t you have to tell them you are hitting a provisional? You don’t have to tell them you’re changing balls (I don’t think). You do have to tell them about a provisional. You don’t have to tell them you’re taking an unplayable lie. You don’t have to tell them you’re taking relief from ground under repair. You don’t have to tell them you didn’t ground your club in the bunker. You don’t have to tell them you whiffed a tap in putt. You don’t have to tell them you’re taking a practice stroke, not a real stroke. etc.
Some of these claims are correct… Generally, pros will inform another player, or even another player’s caddie, what they are about to do, whenever they are in a situation that might raise any doubt. If they contemplate taking a damaged ball out of play, they will so inform their fellow competitors, mark the ball, lift it, being careful not to change the position it was lying in, so it can be replaced exactly as it was. Then, the fellow competitors will inspect the ball and either agree or not. On the other hand, if they take a ball out after the completion of a hole, they are not required to say anything, unless the number of the ball is different than the one they took out. In that case, they’ll make sure the other players are aware that they just changed from (eg) 2’s to 3’s. Anytime they will be taking relief, whether it is free or under penalty, they will inform their fellow competitors of the situation. Commonly, the competitors will not only watch, but will jump in and help the player get the best possible result, without breaking a rule. Keeping in mind that this is their business, these things become pretty routine. Sometimes, not a word is said. Rather, they’ll get eye contact with another player, all the way across the fairway, do a little sign language, and get a nod from the distance. They all know what’s going on, so no discussion is needed. In this case in question, what Sophie did is very common… i.e. stepping in, extremely close to having "taken a stance," then backing away. Sometimes, when a ball seems like it wants to move, they’ll set the putter head close to the ball (but not grounded) and use the head as a reference, to see if they can detect movement. (you can’t hit a moving ball) If it weren’t for the "heat of the moment" factor, I’d be shocked that Sophie didn’t make sure Julie was paying attention, just in case. Many players will call in a rules official for even the slightest, most obvious ruling situation, just to make sure they don’t make a mistake. Once they have put the situation in the hands of an official, they can’t be wrong, since the official will spell out every option, then watch to see that it is handled correctly. This was not one of those cases, but I can pretty much assure you Sophie will be more careful, in the future. Unc
It was Robert Damron, and it struck me that that was a brilliant way of handling things. It gives you an iron clad "alibi" if something happens. I don’t really see why. If someone’s going to lie, what difference does it make when?
It’s not about telling lies; it’s about informing your partners of what actions you plan to take in potentially problematic situations. For example, if Sophie had told Julie that she was not going to sole her club in this circumstance, Julie would have been able to confirm that to the officials, interviewers and others immediately, and there would have been no question. As it is, many people, you included it seems, think Sophie lied. — Doug Main "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One last comment about the Gustasfon debate. There was some discussion about the issue on the Golf Channel last night and several PGA players claim that on numerous occasions, when their ball is in a very precarious lie, they make sure that they don’t ground the club when they address the ball. However, one player, whose name escapes me, said that whenever that happens to him, he makes a point to tell the players he’s playing with, that he is in fact avoiding grounding the club in case it moves. That way, his fellow players know what’s going on and can in fact attest to this fact in case of controversy. It was Robert Damron, and it struck me that that was a brilliant way of handling things. It gives you an iron clad "alibi" if something happens.
I don’t really see why. If someone’s going to lie, what difference does it make when?
Why? Don’t you have to tell them you are changing balls? Don’t you have to tell them you are hitting a provisional?
You don’t have to tell them you’re changing balls (I don’t think). You do have to tell them about a provisional. You don’t have to tell them you’re taking an unplayable lie. You don’t have to tell them you’re taking relief from ground under repair. You don’t have to tell them you didn’t ground your club in the bunker. You don’t have to tell them you whiffed a tap in putt. You don’t have to tell them you’re taking a practice stroke, not a real stroke. etc.
As I’ve said before, there shouldn’t be ANY stink about this. Golf fans wax poetic about how this is the only sport where players are their own referees, and this is a game of honor. Then a situation comes up like this, and those same fans whine poetic about how someone (they think) didn’t call the rules right, boo hoo. Well, which is it? Do players police themselves or don’t they! If so, then those same fans should have said "this is what the game’s all about. She knows the rules and make the honorable call." Do they want her to lie, and say she grounded her club when she didn’t? Do players only have integrity when they add penalty strokes to their score?
But, since the other players don’t call your rules violations (as you are responsible for calling them on yourself) it just seems a little odd to tell others that you aren’t breaking the rules. Or not? KT
other players have a duty to protect field if they see an infraction i think. Tony
Moral of the story. Next time that happens to Sophie, she should tell her playing partner, in this case Julie Inkster, that she was NOT grounding the putter because of the ball’s location. Then there would be not doubt that she didn’t cheat. That holds true for players actually when places in that situation.
It might have taken 20 minutes for her to say that, with her stutter. Hindsight is always 20/20. If this had been an established procedure that all pro’s do, that would be one thing. But as it is, we’ll just have to take her word on it, barring conclusive evidence to the contrary, and there doesn’t appear to be any.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One last comment about the Gustasfon debate. There was some discussion about the issue on the Golf Channel last night and several PGA players claim that on numerous occasions, when their ball is in a very precarious lie, they make sure that they don’t ground the club when they address the ball. However, one player, whose name escapes me, said that whenever that happens to him, he makes a point to tell the players he’s playing with, that he is in fact avoiding grounding the club in case it moves. That way, his fellow players know what’s going on and can in fact attest to this fact in case of controversy. Moral of the story. Next time that happens to Sophie, she should tell her playing partner, in this case Julie Inkster, that she was NOT grounding the putter because of the ball’s location. Then there would be not doubt that she didn’t cheat. That holds true for players actually when places in that situation. But, since the other players don’t call your rules violations (as you are responsible for calling them on yourself) it just seems a little odd to tell others that you aren’t breaking the rules. Or not? KT
Why? Don’t you have to tell them you are changing balls? Don’t you have to tell them you are hitting a provisional? It’s not unreasonable to inform them even if casually what you are doing. So you may comment… that ball wants to move, guess I better not ground the putter.
One last comment about the Gustasfon debate. There was some discussion about the issue on the Golf Channel last night and several PGA players claim that on numerous occasions, when their ball is in a very precarious lie, they make sure that they don’t ground the club when they address the ball. However, one player, whose name escapes me, said that whenever that happens to him, he makes a point to tell the players he’s playing with, that he is in fact avoiding grounding the club in case it moves. That way, his fellow players know what’s going on and can in fact attest to this fact in case of controversy.
It was Robert Damron, and it struck me that that was a brilliant way of handling things. It gives you an iron clad "alibi" if something happens. However, I’ve read Sophie’s version of events that was posted elsewhere in this NG and it seems very clear that she was aware that the ball was precariously perched, and was taking the appropriate course of action. I think the controversy was heightened by inflammatory comments by Roger Maltbie and Dottie Pepper. — Doug Main "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One last comment about the Gustasfon debate. There was some discussion about the issue on the Golf Channel last night and several PGA players claim that on numerous occasions, when their ball is in a very precarious lie, they make sure that they don’t ground the club when they address the ball. However, one player, whose name escapes me, said that whenever that happens to him, he makes a point to tell the players he’s playing with, that he is in fact avoiding grounding the club in case it moves. That way, his fellow players know what’s going on and can in fact attest to this fact in case of controversy. Moral of the story. Next time that happens to Sophie, she should tell her playing partner, in this case Julie Inkster, that she was NOT grounding the putter because of the ball’s location. Then there would be not doubt that she didn’t cheat. That holds true for players actually when places in that situation.
But, since the other players don’t call your rules violations (as you are responsible for calling them on yourself) it just seems a little odd to tell others that you aren’t breaking the rules. Or not? KT
One last comment about the Gustasfon debate. There was some discussion about the issue on the Golf Channel last night and several PGA players claim that on numerous occasions, when their ball is in a very precarious lie, they make sure that they don’t ground the club when they address the ball. However, one player, whose name escapes me, said that whenever that happens to him, he makes a point to tell the players he’s playing with, that he is in fact avoiding grounding the club in case it moves. That way, his fellow players know what’s going on and can in fact attest to this fact in case of controversy. Moral of the story. Next time that happens to Sophie, she should tell her playing partner, in this case Julie Inkster, that she was NOT grounding the putter because of the ball’s location. Then there would be not doubt that she didn’t cheat. That holds true for players actually when places in that situation.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s not that I’m mentally unbalanced. Not really. At least, not in the sense that people look at me anxiously and think I need a good thorazine cocktail to remain rooted in this collective hallucination of reality. My kid thinks I’m just a regular, confused grown-up. My wife knows better, but she seems to be extra-special-nice to me after I have a bad day at the range. SNIP I know some of you have been there. I know we’re all beginners once. I know lessons are the answer, and I’m working on that, although I’m curious about different teaching methods, because my progress has ground to a screeching halt at the moment. Ugh. It’s a good thing it’s raining in Dallas today. -b
The thing I’ve found helpful during periodic bouts with "bladitis" and "shankinosis" is to change my lesson schedule. Instead of 30 or 60 minute lessons, I made a deal with my pro for a fifteen minute "coaching" session every day or every other day. The deal was that we wouldn’t cover anything really new; instead, he would simply watch me begin my practice for the allotted time and offer some comments to get me going in the right direction. It kept me from getting the basic movements wrong at the beginning of the practice session; and, after a couple of days in a row, I would settle into the swing better and we could go back to normal lessons. Over the last couple of years, it has seemed to me that at times I need "lessons" and at times I need "coaching." YMMV. Jeff
Most interesting post I have read in a long while, I think. Of course, noting every stroke one takes requires the person take the time, and have the time, to do so, and not be quite so angry. I played on my local nine hole course tuesday, scored an 83(?), but a 57 if I did not lose 13 balls in the process (I still wonder what they do with all of those balls! Facetious sarcasm, plain and simple). A lot of slicing, that glide just enough to go OB. I am beginning to wonder if my address is off for some reason, because my address where I practice is rather good, and could be deemed to be hitting out of the rough. Had a one putt on the final hole, for bogey, and read at least two holes perfectly that just missed going in. Had one pitch that left me about 4 feet away, which I missed of course (downhill, putter seemed to jump at point of contact). Hit one good wood shot (non-tee shot) on the first hole, and hit one good iron shot on the 6th hole – but with no real distance. Of course, on the par three seven, I could not hit a tee shot at all, having to traverse 150 yds of marsh, and I broke a tee in the process because the club seemed to find a way to swing under the ball. (Three broken tees on the day – that is something new for me, one or two more including the tee shots I hit on the driving range prior to playing). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s not that I’m mentally unbalanced. Not really. At least, not in the snip… Ugh. It’s a good thing it’s raining in Dallas today. -b My opinion (and it rambles a bit)… I’ve been right where you are now. At the beginning, your efforts will have a dramatic effect on your game. Your scores drop from the 120 – 130 range to the 100 – 110 range. Every practice session you feel as if 10 minutes of work will reduce your score by X amount. But then it hits. The dreaded plateau. The ceiling. Whatever you want to call it. The learning process is just a difficult as the game of golf. You’ve been receiving general instruction on the fundamentals and you feel as thought you’ve got ‘em nailed. But you don’t. Only the best do. The 30 or so shots that have come off your scores are the result of your fundamentals improving. You’ve got the concept but now you need to refine and hone them. You’ve gone from unconscious incompetence (you don’t know what you don’t know) to a modicum of conscious competence (you know what you know). But you need to come back and research your conscious incompetence (know what you don’t know). Play a few rounds. Record every single shot with every bit of info you can. The placement, the lie, the club selection, the wind, the thoughts in your head, the results, how you felt about the results, how far you threw your club, whatever. As a personal aside… I’ll bet most of your shots are within 50yds of the green. I’ll bet that your putts number in the 40’s. I’ll bet that your up-and-down percentage will be under 20%. And I also bet that most of your bad shots are preceded by serviceable, but not perfect, shots. It’s the old diagnose and fix mentality to golf. Bad on the range and disastrous on the course. Calm down. Work on your drills. Learn from the bad shots. Praise yourself for the good shots. Your best shots will come from being relaxed and trusting what you’ve learned. Hope this helps…
It’s not that I’m mentally unbalanced. Not really. At least, not in the sense that people look at me anxiously and think I need a good thorazine cocktail to remain rooted in this collective hallucination of reality. My kid thinks I’m just a regular, confused grown-up. My wife knows better, but she seems to be extra-special-nice to me after I have a bad day at the range. She knew this when she came home and found me in the garage, silently and sullenly cleaning my clubs. I do this when they become awkward blunt instruments for tearing up grass – lawn tools, if you will – rather than finely crafted tools for sending little white balls on long and glorious journeys. Then again, maybe it is my head. Maybe somewhere, somehow, I am so screwed up mentally that I shouldn’t be allowed to golf. I dunno. <sigh Doe John’s post and the ensuing thread made me think of this. I’ve tried cutting back the number of balls and doing my stretching and taking time to set up shots, and doing the headcover drill. And all of those things work. Once. And the next time I go out I can’t hit the ball to save my life. Yesterday, for some reason I cannot identify, I started *blading* every shot with any club longer than a 7i. What the hell? I never blade. Jesus. I’m trying, desperately, to do the things Steve has taught me on the course – starting with slow, easy, short chips/pitches to get the feel of the body turn. And it works for a while, and then I move up to try a full swing and *poof*….it all goes away. Thoughts begin to creep in – "why do I play this stupid game?" and "do I *really* like golf or am I fooling myself?" and things like that. Doubt, anger, frustration – these are not the ways of the Jedi. I’m stubborn enough to keep at it. And learn. I know I’ll get there, eventually. But it is So. F—ing. Demoralizing. I don’t even care that much about distance anymore. I just want to hit them straight. That’s all. I know some of you have been there. I know we’re all beginners once. I know lessons are the answer, and I’m working on that, although I’m curious about different teaching methods, because my progress has ground to a screeching halt at the moment. Ugh. It’s a good thing it’s raining in Dallas today. -b
Keep your head down! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yesterday, for some reason I cannot identify, I started *blading* every shot with any club longer than a 7i. What the hell? I never blade. Jesus.
What happens when you blade a long iron?
Not much different from not blading it Ulrich
Yesterday, for some reason I cannot identify, I started *blading* every shot with any club longer than a 7i. What the hell? I never blade. Jesus.
I’m not picturing this. I have been guilty of blading wedges, hitting with the edge of the club. If I miss high, I will top the ball with longer clubs. What happens when you blade a long iron?
Mine’s underneath my water bottle; got the barest scratch of Aberlour in it right now, or was that Black Bush? Can’t remember. Either way, I need to clean it out and reload, probably with Talisker…
Pro and me on the range: Me: "You cold?" Pro: "No." Me: "Sure you are!" Pro: "No, I’ve got this Wondertec Superfleece…" Me: "*Sure* you are cold! You sick or something?" Pro: "Oh, oh, sorry, yeah, very cold, bitterly cold… bit slow today, sorry." (Sound effects: Clink of glass, smacking lips.) Thomas Prufer
I agree that 4 really does not apply at all right now. As for No. 3, do you mean a flinch? Not sure what an offplane backswing means – poor extension has to mean pushing away from the body, right? Or does offplane mean different from the plane you swing on when you swing forward? The real question is how do you know you have a mediocre grip? Setup should be easily addressed, ball position usually. Setup could also be club position (hooded, open, closed, toe’d or heel’d). But I don’t know what my problem is, maybe the clubs, the clubshafts and clubheads. My clubshafts seem too flippy. Bends when they touch the grass sometimes, in the rough, which throws my setup off a bit – does it alter my drives when I swing too – I would assume so. Yet, this appears to be only sometimes, because I have hit good drives. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Basically, 95% of the problem are as follows (not necessarily all three): 1) bad or mediocre grip and setup 2) offplane backswing with poor extension (often as result of being offplane!) 3) hit impulse downswing ______ 4) no talent No talent? Just kidding, that is the least of your problems. David A.
So what I did about it… I took a little time off, analyzed my problem (over the top pulls and slices). Found a drill that I thought would help and went back to work. I seem to be getting back to normal. In fact this drill may have taught me something about the golf swing that I’ve been searching for for many years. I hope so anyway.
What a tease. . . WHAT WAS THE DRILL? TIA
As your doctor, I advise you to drink heavily.
Yeah, but he’ll think you’re joking. I have a hip flask somewhere in my bag. Probably Ballantine’s, unless there’s some of the Laphroaig left… Thomas Prufer
As your doctor, I advise you to drink heavily. Yeah, but he’ll think you’re joking.
There are things worth joking about, and then there’s doctor’s advice I have a hip flask somewhere in my bag. Probably Ballantine’s, unless there’s some of the Laphroaig left…
Mine’s underneath my water bottle; got the barest scratch of Aberlour in it right now, or was that Black Bush? Can’t remember. Either way, I need to clean it out and reload, probably with Talisker… Prof. Rev. Todd "Runyan" McGillivray, Esq. http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ Emailing me? tmcg at sasktel dot net. "Even the Mona Lisa’s fallin’ apart." – Fight Club
Basically, 95% of the problem are as follows (not necessarily all three): 1) bad or mediocre grip and setup 2) offplane backswing with poor extension (often as result of being offplane!) 3) hit impulse downswing ______ 4) no talent No talent? Just kidding, that is the least of your problems. David A.
you’re probably on the right track – just going the wrong way:–) v
I have just aquired the following antique golf club: Scottie McDonald hickory shafted leather grip left handed putter. Has anyone got any information on possible value or rarity? Thanks in advance
I have just aquired the following antique golf club: Scottie McDonald hickory shafted leather grip left handed putter. Has anyone got any information on possible value or rarity?
I don’t know anything about the club…..but it might just be connected with one Charles B MacDonald, the first official winner of the American Amateur title, in 1895. His family originally came from St Andrews…and he subsequently took a leading part in promoting the game, in forming the US Golf Association and in maintaining its links with St Andrews, thus ensuring that the world still plays under the same rules. The only complication here is that MacDonald (note spelling) was right handed! Does the putter have any ’symbol’ or mark impressed into the head? This would be the ‘mark’ of the actual club maker, and might give a guide as to the origin of the club. — cheers david "Somewhere in the world a village is missing an idiot!" - McCord SPAM-FIX. The owner of privacy.net has given permission to use this address for the purpose of protection from spam. If you want to contact me send to dsantwyk<ATbigpond<DOTnet<DOTau…thankyou!
I have just aquired the following antique golf club: Scottie McDonald hickory shafted leather grip left handed putter. Has anyone got any information on possible value or rarity? Thanks in advance
http://www.oldcourse.com/ click on "Features" and "Club Questions" You’ll be in contact with the acknowledged expert on Hickories, Pete Georgiady, a most accommodating man. — "How Can You Not Like A Game Where It’s Okay To Get Teed Off, Tote A Six-Iron, Shoot Birdies, and If You’re Under Par It’s A Great Day!" (from "Frank & Ernest" by Bob Thaves — used with permission)
I hate that, I can only imagine what that did to new chrome clubs. For that reason I have 3 or 4 "crap" clubs I use to work on my swing when I’m stuck with mats.
Actually it’s not too bad. A little 409 and paper towel and they clean right up. As long as I don’t let it sit there too long. But then, cleaning my clubs is kinda fun. To me, anyway. -b
So I imagined what it would feel like to have the headcovers or towels jammed into my armpits. Aside from the sweat-cum-Right Guard-goo, that is.
YUK!! I understand the sweat and the Right Guard but ……? What else have you been jamming into your armpits? -JR
Aside from the sweat-cum-Right Guard-goo, that is. YUK!! I understand the sweat and the Right Guard but ……? What else have you been jamming into your armpits?
<sigh Use of the word "cum" in the Latin sense of "with" rather than the more vulgar spelling we’re accustomed to. I.E., summa cum laude. However, now that you mention it, it’s pretty funny. And, it does help the head covers adhere a little better. -b
Started out early that day. Got to the practice range and turned in the leased TourEdge clubs. They had everyone using mats that day. Take out the PW, and start with gentle swings trying to make the turn and keep decent tempo. And topped the ball. And topped the ball.
Sounds like what I did yesterday. I musta hit 25 balls with my wedges and didn’t hit more than 4 of them well. I knew my back was sore and stiff, but this was ridiculous. So I gave up in disgust and went to the chipping green which was the reason I came, but on the way made myself hit about 15 balls out of the bunker. My short game was the worst during the last 9 holes I played Saturday so I needed to get a feel for distances again Done with that I still had about 12 balls left so I figured I’d waste them with my driver, fw wood and 3 iron. Damn if I didn’t hit them well. Can’t hit a sand wedge but I can blast my fw metal off the deck? What has been working lately is to slow my swing down enough so I can start my hip turn before my hands have a chance to cast the club. What seems to happen is that the hip turn will lead my hands to drop and once they do I can get away with as much kill instinct as I want cause the downswing has already started in the right slot. As long as I let my wrists release the club the ball goes straight. One thing is that it abbreviated my backswing, which is a good thing. I am really flexible in my upper body and taking too much backswing is sometimes a problem for me. The second is that holding the arms in this position seems to dampen the speed I usually try to swing with. This effectively corrects my tendency to pull a Chuck Yeager with the club head and settle into a regular tempo. Oh, Buddha. It worked.
Too much backswing is my biggest deathmove, nothing good comes from it. I’ve seen the headcover drill and even seen VJ doing it on the practice tee warming up for a tournament. I like the idea for the left arm, but to do it for the right arm would screw me up big time. I can see how it would shorten up your backswing and cripple any possibility of starting your downswing with your hands. But it seems to me to be another good way of getting to the same place I got by making myself slow down. I have to say, more accurately, that it *seems* like it worked. I was hitting much more crisply, straighter, not topping the ball, and getting that proper waxy film of green stuff from the mats on my new clubs, which pissed me off.
I hate that, I can only imagine what that did to new chrome clubs. For that reason I have 3 or 4 "crap" clubs I use to work on my swing when I’m stuck with mats.
I don’t know Mike. Never met em’. Don’t know what his favorite brand of beer is, what he looks like, what he does for a living, or what girl deflowered him when he was younger,
Hey Bill, There are a few of us here that have known Mike D a lot longer than you, and even we don’t know who "deflowered" him when he was younger. Maybe Mike can help shed some light on this very important question, now that it has been raised!!! Eric "the Hammer"
Anticlimactic would be the word, because it was basically a clone of lesson five, except that we started out with a brief class on using fairway woods and drivers… Started out early that day. Got to the practice range and turned in the leased TourEdge clubs. They had everyone using mats that day. Take out the PW, and start with gentle swings trying to make the turn and keep decent tempo. And topped the ball. And topped the ball. After seven or eight shots, and considering which club in the bag would be best for seppuku (decided on the 56 deg. wedge, if you’re interested) I thought of Mike Dalecki. I don’t know Mike. Never met em’. Don’t know what his favorite brand of beer is, what he looks like, what he does for a living, or what girl deflowered him when he was younger, but I know two things. 1) He seems to be a smart guy who knows a lot about club making. 2) He’s repeatedly mentioned this "Headcover Drill." Now, being the narcissistic, egotistical and insecure brat that I am, I decided that I wasn’t going to try a true headcover drill in the presence of my fellow students and possibly my instructor. Also, I was secretly harboring the tiny hope that if it worked in my head I could claim credit for fixing my own swing. So I imagined what it would feel like to have the headcovers or towels jammed into my armpits. Aside from the sweat-cum-Right Guard-goo, that is. To me, it felt a little like I was trying to keep my biceps much closer to the outer pectorals, and it felt a little strange, but it felt…right. Like this is what I was supposed to be doing. One thing is that it abbreviated my backswing, which is a good thing. I am really flexible in my upper body and taking too much backswing is sometimes a problem for me. The second is that holding the arms in this position seems to dampen the speed I usually try to swing with. This effectively corrects my tendency to pull a Chuck Yeager with the club head and settle into a regular tempo. Oh, Buddha. It worked. Waitaminute. Being the type of person that believes correllation does not prove causation, I have to say, more accurately, that it *seems* like it worked. I was hitting much more crisply, straighter, not topping the ball, and getting that proper waxy film of green stuff from the mats on my new clubs, which pissed me off. But at least the waxy marks were straight, perpindicular to the clubface. Class finally started up, and Steve ran us through alignment for fairway woods and drivers. I, of course, began to get nervous again and commenced to Ginsu the upper-right range quadrant. Maybe there’s some unconscious part of me that just *hates* the right-hand side of the range and wishes to punish it with a hailstorm of balls. We did this for a bit, and then Steve said he was going to give us an optional 20-minute putting refresher, and those who wanted to take it could meet him over on the practice green. I bag the lumber and walk to the practice green. My putting is worse than anything else. I’m apparently the only one who thinks he needs putting practice. Steve grins. "Okay, Billy, let’s go over reading greens again…" After ten minutes or so, a couple more students filter in, but they’re mostly watching. I’m starting to be able to tell who’s serious about continuing the classes and who isn’t. Those who aren’t are futzing around. Those who are have this intense look on their faces – one of the guys in my class named Arun (that’s uh-roon) and I start putting and working things out. The putting improves, but only gradually. I like Arun. He’s got this cool-looking compact swing. We head out to the course in a squadron of golf carts. Two balls each, working on fairway and approach shots. And under pressure with people in the class I can’t make a decent shot. Vicious slices or worm burners, but then, neither can anyone else in the class, either. My pride is damaged, and I’m ashamed of this fact because I know that I shouldn’t be comparing myself to anyone else in the class, but I have a naturally competitive streak in me and I want to excel and be the best in the class. I’ve mentioned it before, but I really want Steve to say "Wow – killer shot, Billy. That’s the way I taught you." It doesn’t happen for anyone. After we do a couple holes of this Steve says we’re going to play a scramble – class against him. We all shoot like crap, but there’s 12 of us, and by sheer numbers we win the hole by decent putting. Second scramble hole and everyone feels really silly, because none of us are striking the ball well. Steve pounds a drive downrange and we alternately skull, hook and slice. Finally one of the balls gets somewhat downrange, though it’s hard to see because we’re running out of daylight, and we move on. At this point, my irritation with my ballstriking is becoming this nasty ego-fueled anger-thing. I step up to take my second shot with a five-iron and pure it just to the right of the hole. No more anger. Nothing. Lesson’s over for the day. I am my own worst enemy on the course. Next Sunday, we play a best-ball scramble. I have to say that I really prefer stroke play, but it’s a class thing and supposed to be fun, so I’m going to attend. And sign up for the front-nine class, which is the next in the series. Thanks for reading. -b