Question:
I would fight for a woman’s right to earn equal pay for equal work, to have equal access to the executive boardroom, to have an equal say with men in the way that things are run in our society. But if I should want a place where I can hang out with a bunch of guys, free from the pressures of sexual politics, I don’t believe that makes me wrong or anachronistic. It just makes me honest.
What happens where the bunch of "guys" are, for example, executives and heads of the largest companies in town? Where just having the possibility to socialize with them gives you the edge in your career or your business? So, unless you were born with a the right equipment – you don’t get that access. I’m not exactly sure what sexual politics is – sounds like a reason to get into politics 
Response:
I think lot’s of us have this romanticized notion of a mens club. In an ideal world, I’m not sure there is a need for it. In your specified list of desires – as long as the members agree that farting, cussing, and cigars are not only tolerated but desired — then why exlcude a flatulent, former Catholic School (the best at swearing), cigar smoking woman?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : [...much snippage...] : The big test for my principles would come if Hootie called me : up to offer me membership at ANGC. Would I have the strength of : my convictions to say, "Thank you, please offer me membership : _after_ your club has admitted a woman" ? : : I hope I would. : : You are a stronger man than I am Dave, and I salute you. I’m a liberal, and I don’t see any stigma at all in an all-male club. I’d join one without reservation. I think it’s the height of male arrogance, ironically, to act as though women need their all-female [spas, clubs, colleges, whatever] while men have no similar need for places of male bonding — as though men should be above the kind of "exclusionary" behavior that women practice routinely. I love women. I love strong-minded women who can think circles around me (not an unusual thing). I enjoy spending time around women. But, at times, the company of other men is what I need — a chance to drink and smoke cigars and cuss and fart out loud among brothers. I’m not embarrassed in the least by this, and I certainly will not apologize for it. With the heavy majority of golf clubs being utterly open to both genders, why we would need a push to make *all* clubs that way is beyond me. cb
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I don’t like to exclude people based on criteria over which : they have no control (like the genitalia with which they : were born). That happens all the time, though. Most people can never hope to be President of the USA because they weren’t born here. Most of us will never be professional athletes because we lack the talent. If you had the talent to play on the Tour, though, I suspect you’d do it. After all, you have the talent to be a successful consultant in computing, and you do that. (Trust me when I say that no amount of instruction would make that career path possible for my wife.) Not every exclusion is an injustice.
But that difference is based on what she or I can *do* with what we have, not just on what we were born with. (Personally, I’d just be happy if your wife would cash that damn check.) I understand your sentiment, and for the most part I agree with it, but at some point we have to acknowledge that gender is a very real distinction within the species, both biologically and socially. To arrange our social institutions as though it is not is a sort of falsehood, IMO.
Perhaps, but IMO it’s a mistake to dimiss a large number of people based on gender/race/religion/sexual-preference without finding out if they fit into our social institutions. — http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=hayesd Troll Intolerant: http://rec-sport-golf.com/newsgroup/philosophy.html
Response:
: I don’t like to exclude people based on criteria over which : they have no control (like the genitalia with which they : were born). That happens all the time, though. Most people can never hope to be President of the USA because they weren’t born here. Most of us will never be professional athletes because we lack the talent. If you had the talent to play on the Tour, though, I suspect you’d do it. After all, you have the talent to be a successful consultant in computing, and you do that. (Trust me when I say that no amount of instruction would make that career path possible for my wife.) Not every exclusion is an injustice. I understand your sentiment, and for the most part I agree with it, but at some point we have to acknowledge that gender is a very real distinction within the species, both biologically and socially. To arrange our social institutions as though it is not is a sort of falsehood, IMO. cb
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : How arrogant of you to think that women should be sheltered : from your cussing and farting. ;) It’s not their comfort level I’m concerned about, though. Of course (heterosexual) men are going to try to clean up their act in the presence of women, because it’s something of a biological imperative. We don’t want the women who don’t know us yet to know what little kids we really are. :) : I know that one male in RSG has said that he wouldn’t invite : someone to play golf if that someone made a point of farting : out loud. : : I don’t think such boisterousness (for lack of a better term) : splits along gender lines. Don’t confuse my example with my point. (Read what I meant, not what I said? Heh. Sorry.) It really has more to do with what I just wrote. I would fight for a woman’s right to earn equal pay for equal work, to have equal access to the executive boardroom, to have an equal say with men in the way that things are run in our society. But if I should want a place where I can hang out with a bunch of guys, free from the pressures of sexual politics, I don’t believe that makes me wrong or anachronistic. It just makes me honest.
I think you’re ascribing too much chivalry to my position. I don’t like to exclude people based on criteria over which they have no control (like the genitalia with which they were born). — http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=hayesd Troll Intolerant: http://rec-sport-golf.com/newsgroup/philosophy.html
Response:
: How arrogant of you to think that women should be sheltered : from your cussing and farting. ;) It’s not their comfort level I’m concerned about, though. Of course (heterosexual) men are going to try to clean up their act in the presence of women, because it’s something of a biological imperative. We don’t want the women who don’t know us yet to know what little kids we really are. :) : I know that one male in RSG has said that he wouldn’t invite : someone to play golf if that someone made a point of farting : out loud. : : I don’t think such boisterousness (for lack of a better term) : splits along gender lines. Don’t confuse my example with my point. (Read what I meant, not what I said? Heh. Sorry.) It really has more to do with what I just wrote. I would fight for a woman’s right to earn equal pay for equal work, to have equal access to the executive boardroom, to have an equal say with men in the way that things are run in our society. But if I should want a place where I can hang out with a bunch of guys, free from the pressures of sexual politics, I don’t believe that makes me wrong or anachronistic. It just makes me honest. cb
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : [...much snippage...] : The big test for my principles would come if Hootie called me : up to offer me membership at ANGC. Would I have the strength of : my convictions to say, "Thank you, please offer me membership : _after_ your club has admitted a woman" ? : : I hope I would. : : You are a stronger man than I am Dave, and I salute you. I’m a liberal, and I don’t see any stigma at all in an all-male club. I’d join one without reservation. I think it’s the height of male arrogance, ironically, to act as though women need their all-female [spas, clubs, colleges, whatever] while men have no similar need for places of male bonding — as though men should be above the kind of "exclusionary" behavior that women practice routinely.
My feelings on all-female establishments is the same as my feelings on all-male. I support their right to exist 100%. I love women. I love strong-minded women who can think circles around me (not an unusual thing). I enjoy spending time around women. But, at times, the company of other men is what I need — a chance to drink and smoke cigars and cuss and fart out loud among brothers. I’m not embarrassed in the least by this, and I certainly will not apologize for it.
How arrogant of you to think that women should be sheltered from your cussing and farting. ;) I know that one male in RSG has said that he wouldn’t invite someone to play golf if that someone made a point of farting out loud. I don’t think such boisterousness (for lack of a better term) splits along gender lines. With the heavy majority of golf clubs being utterly open to both genders, why we would need a push to make *all* clubs that way is beyond me.
– http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=hayesd Troll Intolerant: http://rec-sport-golf.com/newsgroup/philosophy.html
Response:
I thought he was just ignoring me. Private clubs should get to set their own membership policies. Playing Pine Valley or the Old Course is spiritual, not dealing with a common hustler. Ken <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In this newsgroup, show to me you are a racist, plonk. Don’t play by the rules, plonk. Once again I assumed that it was Thoureaism at work but two incidents, one on this group and a golf occurence yesterday opened my eyes. The incident on the group was the ANGC and women members. I’ve been tempted to rant on and on about my feelings. I think women should be members at Augusta. Each time as I was beginning to hit the send button I stopped. I was talking about Augusta National, the mere thought of it created calm and peace inside me. The place of my dreams. So, I didn’t send any of the posts. It was just too dichotomous (sp?).
Response:
I wish all liberals were as reasonable as you. Bravo! Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : [...much snippage...] : The big test for my principles would come if Hootie called me : up to offer me membership at ANGC. Would I have the strength of : my convictions to say, "Thank you, please offer me membership : _after_ your club has admitted a woman" ? : : I hope I would. : : You are a stronger man than I am Dave, and I salute you. I’m a liberal, and I don’t see any stigma at all in an all-male club. I’d join one without reservation. I think it’s the height of male arrogance, ironically, to act as though women need their all-female [spas, clubs, colleges, whatever] while men have no similar need for places of male bonding — as though men should be above the kind of "exclusionary" behavior that women practice routinely. I love women. I love strong-minded women who can think circles around me (not an unusual thing). I enjoy spending time around women. But, at times, the company of other men is what I need — a chance to drink and smoke cigars and cuss and fart out loud among brothers. I’m not embarrassed in the least by this, and I certainly will not apologize for it. With the heavy majority of golf clubs being utterly open to both genders, why we would need a push to make *all* clubs that way is beyond me. cb
Response:
:
: [...much snippage...] : The big test for my principles would come if Hootie called me : up to offer me membership at ANGC. Would I have the strength of : my convictions to say, "Thank you, please offer me membership : _after_ your club has admitted a woman" ? : : I hope I would. : : You are a stronger man than I am Dave, and I salute you. I’m a liberal, and I don’t see any stigma at all in an all-male club. I’d join one without reservation. I think it’s the height of male arrogance, ironically, to act as though women need their all-female [spas, clubs, colleges, whatever] while men have no similar need for places of male bonding — as though men should be above the kind of "exclusionary" behavior that women practice routinely. I love women. I love strong-minded women who can think circles around me (not an unusual thing). I enjoy spending time around women. But, at times, the company of other men is what I need — a chance to drink and smoke cigars and cuss and fart out loud among brothers. I’m not embarrassed in the least by this, and I certainly will not apologize for it. With the heavy majority of golf clubs being utterly open to both genders, why we would need a push to make *all* clubs that way is beyond me. cb
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it’s the height of male arrogance, ironically, to act as though women need their all-female [spas, clubs, colleges, whatever] while men have no similar need for places of male bonding — as though men should be above the kind of "exclusionary" behavior that women practice routinely. I love women. I love strong-minded women who can think circles around me (not an unusual thing). I enjoy spending time around women. But, at times, the company of other men is what I need — a chance to drink and smoke cigars and cuss and fart out loud among brothers. I’m not embarrassed in the least by this, and I certainly will not apologize for it.
The line from the bimbo sports announcer on "The Best Damm Sports Show Period" was that we males have a right to our "bonding", but we are bigots for not having female members…apparently we can go off by ourselves…creating the kind of problem Terry articulated, which is a real problem, IMHO. OFf course, we can’t apply this rhetoric to female only clubs though. There women want to work out, make themselves up and dress such that they are as sexually attractive as they can be, but they don’t want to be oogled by men, are not bigots for these views, and are not logically hypocritical; or so it has been decreed. One cannot function in the public forum these days without passing this sort of PC checklist…so it is OK for my tax money to go to…well, no point in getting too OT…. Rob
Response:
If Hootie called me up, I’d be so damn grateful, I’d ask him if my dressing in drag would help him out. 
— David RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members?rollcall=sneddond email: dsneddon AT cogeco DOT ca
No The first thing you’d better do is call me with a tee-time, or I’d hunt you down like a bad dog. Brad
Response:
[...much snippage...] The big test for my principles would come if Hootie called me up to offer me membership at ANGC. Would I have the strength of my convictions to say, "Thank you, please offer me membership _after_ your club has admitted a woman" ? I hope I would. –dph
You are a stronger man than I am Dave, and I salute you. If Hootie called me up, I’d be so damn grateful, I’d ask him if my dressing in drag would help him out. — David RSG Roll Call http://rec-sport-golf.com/members?rollcall=sneddond email: dsneddon AT cogeco DOT ca
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To clarify my position on women at ANGC, I fully support a private club’s right to exclude anyone for any reason. However, I have no interest in being a member in an exclusionary club. I share Bob’s "open door" policy but I respect the right of others to have different policies (which I think matches the words in Bob’s preamble). The big test for my principles would come if Hootie called me up to offer me membership at ANGC. Would I have the strength of my convictions to say, "Thank you, please offer me membership _after_ your club has admitted a woman" ? I hope I would. BTW Bob, I’d love to hear more about the hustler. Did you say anything in clubhouse about what you experienced. I doubt that they would want one of their employees to be involved in a scam like that. Actually no. The kid really didn’t know this guy and was embarrassed by his actions. 2nd we were there as members of the PGA or the apprentice program, so we didn’t feel we could complain too much. (btw) he plays right and putts left. He was supposed to be on the tour three or four years ago. I have a vague recollection of such a person but can’t come up with a name.
I thought that you were at your home club. I can see why you held your tongue. — http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=hayesd Troll Intolerant: http://rec-sport-golf.com/newsgroup/philosophy.html
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -To clarify my position on women at ANGC, I fully support a private club’s right to exclude anyone for any reason. However, I have no interest in being a member in an exclusionary club. I share Bob’s "open door" policy but I respect the right of others to have different policies (which I think matches the words in Bob’s preamble). The big test for my principles would come if Hootie called me up to offer me membership at ANGC. Would I have the strength of my convictions to say, "Thank you, please offer me membership _after_ your club has admitted a woman" ? I hope I would. BTW Bob, I’d love to hear more about the hustler. Did you say anything in clubhouse about what you experienced. I doubt that they would want one of their employees to be involved in a scam like that.
Actually no. The kid really didn’t know this guy and was embarrassed by his actions. 2nd we were there as members of the PGA or the apprentice program, so we didn’t feel we could complain too much. (btw) he plays right and putts left. He was supposed to be on the tour three or four years ago. I have a vague recollection of such a person but can’t come up with a name. Bob Dye Still Hacking Away No Mulligans, Putting them all in (remove spaces to email)
Response:
Let me start off with the caveats 1. Nothing I’m saying in this post is meant to denigrate any one elses beliefs 2. I am not suggesting that anyone else should believe as I do 3. The purpose of this post is to help me clarify my own thinking by putting the words on paper.
<interesting story snipped for space I’m not sure I’ll be any less of a pain in the ass, here or on the course but at least I now know why I am the way I am and why I want all to be able to play anywhere there is a golf course. My "church" has an open door policy. :-)
To clarify my position on women at ANGC, I fully support a private club’s right to exclude anyone for any reason. However, I have no interest in being a member in an exclusionary club. I share Bob’s "open door" policy but I respect the right of others to have different policies (which I think matches the words in Bob’s preamble). The big test for my principles would come if Hootie called me up to offer me membership at ANGC. Would I have the strength of my convictions to say, "Thank you, please offer me membership _after_ your club has admitted a woman" ? I hope I would. BTW Bob, I’d love to hear more about the hustler. Did you say anything in clubhouse about what you experienced. I doubt that they would want one of their employees to be involved in a scam like that. — http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=hayesd Troll Intolerant: http://rec-sport-golf.com/newsgroup/philosophy.html
Response:
Let me start off with the caveats 1. Nothing I’m saying in this post is meant to denigrate any one elses beliefs 2. I am not suggesting that anyone else should believe as I do 3. The purpose of this post is to help me clarify my own thinking by putting the words on paper. Most of my life I’ve gone aganist the grain. If you wanted to go left I went right, backwards, forwards etc. I finally accepted that I was just marching to the beat of a different drummer and began to keep my opinions to myself except when it came to golf and the issues that affect it. In this newsgroup, show to me you are a racist, plonk. Don’t play by the rules, plonk. Once again I assumed that it was Thoureaism at work but two incidents, one on this group and a golf occurence yesterday opened my eyes. The incident on the group was the ANGC and women members. I’ve been tempted to rant on and on about my feelings. I think women should be members at Augusta. Each time as I was beginning to hit the send button I stopped. I was talking about Augusta National, the mere thought of it created calm and peace inside me. The place of my dreams. So, I didn’t send any of the posts. It was just too dichotomous (sp?). The second incident was yesterday. Three of us took off for a late round at one of the upscale private courses here in the area. In front of us was a twosome with one of the most objectionable people I’ve ever seen on the course. Through 7 holes with us waiting on each shot he was one his cell phone and/or instructing his playing companion, who we later found out was a new hire at the club and had never met this guy before. On both the 6th and 7th hole he told us to hit when ready then proceeded to speed up and not let us go through. His language was a real embarrassment. On the 8th tee a par three he finally decides to let us go through and sets the hook at the same time. I should mention that one of my playing partners is a solid plus 1 and I can get around the course resonably well. He, proposes a bet $50 a man per hole best ball, he and his partner playing the three of us. I didn’t want any part of it, Found out why later. Anyhow I stiffed the 192 3 iron on #8 and we won the hole with par, birdie just lipped out. On the 9th tee, I finallly tell the guy that I think he is a complete asshole and that not only do I not want a bet with him, I don’t even want to be on the same golf course. He pays me my 50 and declares to all that I’m out of the bet. My partners beg me to stay in. They said we stood to make of 1k out of the day. I stayed in through 9 which we lost and this time I quit the bet paid him back his 50 and we continued our play as a threesome with the new hire, sending the jerk off the course. He apologized before he left for being such an asshole but so what. All of the above is only important when I try to understand why I get so worked up over golf. After all it’s just a game, right? Nope, with one of the rare flashes of insight I realize that the golf course is my spiritual place. It’s the only place where I have peace where I "worship", if you will. In the same manner that someone would object to their church, mosk, etc being defield, I object to the course and the game being tarnished. I didn’t like the bet we had going on it was not designed to bring out the best in any of us. We were in it for the greed. A value that is not consistent with the values I hold dear. (btw) it’s doubful we would have made any money anyway. He was a former tour player who hustles for a living. I’m not sure I’ll be any less of a pain in the ass, here or on the course but at least I now know why I am the way I am and why I want all to be able to play anywhere there is a golf course. My "church" has an open door policy. :-) Bob Dye Still Hacking Away No Mulligans, Putting them all in (remove spaces to email)