Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to disagree with your asessment that "few instructors have the understanding or skills to impart it." A fundamental cause of conflict is the arrogant assumption we intuitively make about ourselves, i.e. our beliefs are at least a tad bit superior to everyone elses. Following your line of thought, I would have to conclude that few of my high school/college educators were competent. In fact, the opposite was true…few were incompetent. I suspect the same is true for golf instructors. It’s a question of flavor…finding one that fulfills your needs. -Greg
Can you find me a compendium of swing theory in which the overall swing is simplified into a single picture with a few guidelines? The reality is that communication of a single unitary swing, vs. tips and the multiplication of parts, is not what you get in 99% of all golf instruction. If it sounds arrogant, it is not. It is how golf instruction occurs. I have yet to meet a teaching protocol or see a book in which the concept of the swing is unitized and communicated with simplicity in a way that someone can do it. FWIW. That’s my take on it. George
Response:
I have the same problem. I took a golf lesson in 1963 and I have played badly ever since.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Every time after I take a lesson, my golf game is bad for some time. This last time I was given the following tips: Then stop taking lessions! :) I was gonna say stop playing 
Response:
I have to disagree with your asessment that "few instructors have the understanding or skills to impart it." A fundamental cause of conflict is the arrogant assumption we intuitively make about ourselves, i.e. our beliefs are at least a tad bit superior to everyone elses. Following your line of thought, I would have to conclude that few of my high school/college educators were competent. In fact, the opposite was true…few were incompetent. I suspect the same is true for golf instructors. It’s a question of flavor…finding one that fulfills your needs. -Greg
Response:
It IS possible to get a clear understanding of the swing and all parts and relationships without the pieces/parts approach. In a short time, with clarity. Few instructors have the understanding or skills to impart it. GH
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It puzzles me that some people want to change and improve, but don’t want to upset their comfort zone. If you really want to improve, then there is no quick solution. Work on what your pro is teaching you, and if it’s frustrating tell him or her about it and discuss why you feel that way. Get a follow-up "tutorial" to iron out your misunderstnaidngs. I hate after lessons because I DO trust them and go ahead to try to master them – but have to put up with terrible golf in the transition period. Except it seems that instructors have an idea about how strong our grip should be – and have us adjust it before they know what our problems are. Maybe they see something – but they need to let us know if they have a real reason for the change, or whether they have everybody with the same grip. Maybe they see something… Maybe they don’t! It is a bitch, is it not? The real problem with golf lessons is that you are "coached" along from whatever the coach sees you doing to whatever the "coach" thinks he should see you doing. As I am sure you are aware, looking good and hitting well have nothing in common, except that hitting well looks good. I know all the instructors want their clients to do well, but I still question everyones understanding (not the least of which is my own understanding) of what makes a golf stroke work. Also, look at whether you need to practice more? The last couple of weeks have been bad weather-wise with only 3 days that I could hit a bucket of balls, with one of those having the putting green unavailable. I had my lesson Saturday and could have practiced or played Sunday as both of those were warm. But spent time with my grandchildren instead. Good for you. Usually I work from 6:00-3:00 when I can, giving me time to practice after work. I could suggest you make up your own experiments, but the problem with that is no one move or position will make a golf stroke effective, and one bad position or move can destroy the whole thing. It would also take a lot of time (years) and mental discipline to test every combination of top grip, bottom grip, stance width, spine angle, take back path, wrist angles, elbow angles, move at beginning of down stroke, move to strike the ball, etc. and correctly discern how each part affects the others. For example, how does the "strength" of the left hand grip affect (a) the position of the left hand at the top of the take back (b) the left shoulder during the move to strike the ball, and (c) the path of the clubhead immediately after striking the ball, just to name a few. If you ask your instructor, how will you know the answer he gives is right? As I said, it is a bitch, is it not? Results speak louder than words. I am reminded of something that happened not to long ago, but I have not the facts in hand. In the track and field events, the running high jump was being performed "face down". One day someone came along and beat everybody jumping "face up" or back to the bar. Now everyone copies that winning move. Today, people are wrenching their backs trying to copy the fastest hips in golf using an almost perfectly average swing (being performed by a well above average golfing mind and golfing body). Is there a better way? Or is it heresy to even ask?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It puzzles me that some people want to change and improve, but don’t want to upset their comfort zone. If you really want to improve, then there is no quick solution. Work on what your pro is teaching you, and if it’s frustrating tell him or her about it and discuss why you feel that way. Get a follow-up "tutorial" to iron out your misunderstnaidngs. I hate after lessons because I DO trust them and go ahead to try to master them – but have to put up with terrible golf in the transition period. Except it seems that instructors have an idea about how strong our grip should be – and have us adjust it before they know what our problems are. Maybe they see something – but they need to let us know if they have a real reason for the change, or whether they have everybody with the same grip.
My protocol is one in which the golfer FINDS the grip strength he needs, empirically, and it beats "being told" by a theorist, because it IS EXACTLY what is natural for the given golfer. Take a baseball grip on your golf club, swing it like a baseball bat, and then stop the swing at an imaginary impact straight out in front of your face. Look at your left hand. The back of the hand is likely facing somewhat up toward the sky. Without rotating your left forearm, loosen your fingers and rotate the leading edge until it is VERTICAL. Then tighten your left hand. Lower the club to the ground. The clubface is now pointed at the target. The relationship between the back of the left hand/wristwatch is for golf what you need to use, since without in-swing twisting your arm DOES deliver the clubface square for impact. Simple. GH
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It puzzles me that some people want to change and improve, but don’t want to upset their comfort zone. If you really want to improve, then there is no quick solution. Work on what your pro is teaching you, and if it’s frustrating tell him or her about it and discuss why you feel that way. Get a follow-up "tutorial" to iron out your misunderstnaidngs. I hate after lessons because I DO trust them and go ahead to try to master them – but have to put up with terrible golf in the transition period. Except it seems that instructors have an idea about how strong our grip should be – and have us adjust it before they know what our problems are. Maybe they see something – but they need to let us know if they have a real reason for the change, or whether they have everybody with the same grip.
Maybe they see something… Maybe they don’t! It is a bitch, is it not? The real problem with golf lessons is that you are "coached" along from whatever the coach sees you doing to whatever the "coach" thinks he should see you doing. As I am sure you are aware, looking good and hitting well have nothing in common, except that hitting well looks good. I know all the instructors want their clients to do well, but I still question everyones understanding (not the least of which is my own understanding) of what makes a golf stroke work. Also, look at whether you need to practice more? The last couple of weeks have been bad weather-wise with only 3 days that I could hit a bucket of balls, with one of those having the putting green unavailable. I had my lesson Saturday and could have practiced or played Sunday as both of those were warm. But spent time with my grandchildren instead.
Good for you. Usually I work from 6:00-3:00 when I can, giving me time to practice after work.
I could suggest you make up your own experiments, but the problem with that is no one move or position will make a golf stroke effective, and one bad position or move can destroy the whole thing. It would also take a lot of time (years) and mental discipline to test every combination of top grip, bottom grip, stance width, spine angle, take back path, wrist angles, elbow angles, move at beginning of down stroke, move to strike the ball, etc. and correctly discern how each part affects the others. For example, how does the "strength" of the left hand grip affect (a) the position of the left hand at the top of the take back (b) the left shoulder during the move to strike the ball, and (c) the path of the clubhead immediately after striking the ball, just to name a few. If you ask your instructor, how will you know the answer he gives is right? As I said, it is a bitch, is it not? Results speak louder than words. I am reminded of something that happened not to long ago, but I have not the facts in hand. In the track and field events, the running high jump was being performed "face down". One day someone came along and beat everybody jumping "face up" or back to the bar. Now everyone copies that winning move. Today, people are wrenching their backs trying to copy the fastest hips in golf using an almost perfectly average swing (being performed by a well above average golfing mind and golfing body). Is there a better way? Or is it heresy to even ask?
Response:
It puzzles me that some people want to change and improve, but don’t want to upset their comfort zone. If you really want to improve, then there is no quick solution. Work on what your pro is teaching you, and if it’s frustrating tell him or her about it and discuss why you feel that way. Get a follow-up "tutorial" to iron out your misunderstnaidngs.
I hate after lessons because I DO trust them and go ahead to try to master them – but have to put up with terrible golf in the transition period. Except it seems that instructors have an idea about how strong our grip should be – and have us adjust it before they know what our problems are. Maybe they see something – but they need to let us know if they have a real reason for the change, or whether they have everybody with the same grip. Also, look at whether you need to practice more?
The last couple of weeks have been bad weather-wise with only 3 days that I could hit a bucket of balls, with one of those having the putting green unavailable. I had my lesson Saturday and could have practiced or played Sunday as both of those were warm. But spent time with my grandchildren instead. Usually I work from 6:00-3:00 when I can, giving me time to practice after work.
Response:
I’m sure your teacher laughs his buns off as he counts your money after you leave. Golf instructing as a career has to rank right up there with televangelists, and chiropractors.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Every time after I take a lesson, my golf game is bad for some time. This last time I was given the following tips: 1. He told me to switch to a more neutral grip. (A lesson a year ago told me to go to a stronger grip – I wonder whether they know or whether they just tell everybody the same thing). 2. He wants me to make sure my back swing points to the target – and no more. 3. He wants me to always do the follow thru. I tend to stop when I see my ball, as seeing my ball is the toughest part of my game. 4. Keep my right knee bent. Not much. But when I took a bucket of balls today, I rarely hit the ball square. I was always too high or too low. I tried doing 1/3 swing and I was always too high or too low. It doesn’t happen during the lesson, but always after I break something – and it takes months to fix it.
I’d get a new instructor and then compare results. I usually shoot low right after a lesson, then degrade until my next lesson. Instructor tweaks errors and off I go again. Mark
Response:
It doesn’t happen during the lesson, but always after I break something – and it takes months to fix it.
I expect to play poorly (i.e. score worse) immediately after a lesson. A lesson normally changes some fundamental that I have not mastered, or tries to eliminate a bad move that is giving rise to compensations. Changing your swing feels awkward for a while, can lead to worse shotmaking, and can easily be very frustrating. There are only two courses of action: 1. work through the changes because they will lead to a better golf game and/or swing in the long run, or 2. give up on the lessons because you don’t have the time or the mental perseverance to see through the change, and revert to what you were doing. It puzzles me that some people want to change and improve, but don’t want to upset their comfort zone. If you really want to improve, then there is no quick solution. Work on what your pro is teaching you, and if it’s frustrating tell him or her about it and discuss why you feel that way. Get a follow-up "tutorial" to iron out your misunderstnaidngs. Also, look at whether you need to practice more? Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Response:
George. I’ve never had a lesson or discussed with an instructor about ‘fling’ I’ve had an earnest interest in the golf swing and some of the componants. I’ve read a lot about these things. Fling–is not something that I’ve ever encountered as a mainstream fundamental. Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some misunderstandings of release, now – those are a different story. Learning how to "fling" vs. shove the clubshaft/clubhead is a horse of another color for someone who has done THAT wrong all his life. GH
Response:
George. I’ve never had a lesson or discussed with an instructor about ‘fling’ I’ve had an earnest interest in the golf swing and some of the componants. I’ve read a lot about these things. Fling–is not something that I’ve ever encountered as a mainstream fundamental. Brad
Might be from the Scottish "Highland Fling", perhaps???:-) Those who have played or watched Coops pre-shot routine might identify. — David RSG Roll Call http://u1netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/sneddond.htm email: dsneddon AT attcanada DOT ca Signatory & Supporter of the UIP http://home.globalfrontiers.com/rorider/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some misunderstandings of release, now – those are a different story. Learning how to "fling" vs. shove the clubshaft/clubhead is a horse of another color for someone who has done THAT wrong all his life. GH
Response:
George. I’ve never had a lesson or discussed with an instructor about ‘fling’ I’ve had an earnest interest in the golf swing and some of the componants. I’ve read a lot about these things. Fling–is not something that I’ve ever encountered as a mainstream fundamental. Brad
Jack Nicklaus discussed it in his first book, describing what he was trying to do. Sling, fling…. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some misunderstandings of release, now – those are a different story. Learning how to "fling" vs. shove the clubshaft/clubhead is a horse of another color for someone who has done THAT wrong all his life. GH
Response:
I was shooting in the low 80’s, high 70’s this summer, and took 4 lessons. My handicap went for 9 to 14. I am starting to get the idea, and am hitting the ball really well. When I get used to the distances, I expect lower than a 9. It takes time, despite what GH thinks. If GH wants to show me with HIS game, I might go for it. RSG-MS or RSG-ATL? Rob —
Do you have a video of your swing you can send me, Rob? You might be surprised at what I’d see and say. Still not decided about Atlanta RSG – it’s unlikely I will make it there because of the time it would require of me to leave affairs (no office employees). But send me a tape. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RSG-MS RSG Masters http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS.html email: Frostback2002atattdotnet Service is the rent we pay for being
Response:
I recently had a lesson. I was told what I was doing wrong. The instructor changed my grip, stance, and my swing. The new grip and stance came easy. I’m still working on the swing. I went out last Sunday. Had a bad front 9 and a good back 9. Had some nice shots and could feel what I was doing wrong when I made a bad one. The instructor that I used came highly recommended by a brother of mine who has used him. Ask the people you golf with who they use, you are bound to find someone good.
Response:
I was shooting in the low 80’s, high 70’s this summer, and took 4 lessons. My handicap went for 9 to 14. I am starting to get the idea, and am hitting the ball really well. When I get used to the distances, I expect lower than a 9. It takes time, despite what GH thinks. If GH wants to show me with HIS game, I might go for it. RSG-MS or RSG-ATL? Rob — RSG-MS RSG Masters http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS.html email: Frostback2002atattdotnet Service is the rent we pay for being
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Every time after I take a lesson, my golf game is bad for some time. This last time I was given the following tips: 1. He told me to switch to a more neutral grip. (A lesson a year ago told me to go to a stronger grip – I wonder whether they know or whether they just tell everybody the same thing). 2. He wants me to make sure my back swing points to the target – and no more. 3. He wants me to always do the follow thru. I tend to stop when I see my ball, as seeing my ball is the toughest part of my game. 4. Keep my right knee bent. I haven’t ever taken a lesson, but I did read Tommy Armour’s book "How to play your best golf all the time". One thing I remember in particular is that he said he never gave his pupils more than one thing to work on in a single lesson, and that trying to give them too many things to think about was a major problem with most golf instructors. Especially with a grip change, I should think that would take quite some time to get used to! A few times I have tried to think about more than one thing I want to try and do at a time, its always a disaster. So if I think about anything, its one thing and one thing only. I’d pick one of those to work on at a time, and pick a new instructor while you are at it. —
When the term "work on…" is used re teaching, I squirm a little. When a change is made there is obviously a new FEELing to the adjustment – and I mean a change in setup or posture or some detail in setup. Not in "swing" which often is a simple consequence OF setup. I find for myself and my pupils making more than an adjustment or two is not problematic in an instruction, and when it immediately produces much better ball flight and when I know that the pupil "gets it" [the adjustment and the reasons and can execute!] then I am comfortable to give him all he wants and let him take home the information to "get used to them at home…". Some misunderstandings of release, now – those are a different story. Learning how to "fling" vs. shove the clubshaft/clubhead is a horse of another color for someone who has done THAT wrong all his life. GH
Response:
Every time after I take a lesson, my golf game is bad for some time. This last time I was given the following tips: Then stop taking lessions! :)
I was gonna say stop playing
Response:
Every time after I take a lesson, my golf game is bad for some time. This last time I was given the following tips: 1. He told me to switch to a more neutral grip. (A lesson a year ago told me to go to a stronger grip – I wonder whether they know or whether they just tell everybody the same thing). 2. He wants me to make sure my back swing points to the target – and no more. 3. He wants me to always do the follow thru. I tend to stop when I see my ball, as seeing my ball is the toughest part of my game. 4. Keep my right knee bent.
I haven’t ever taken a lesson, but I did read Tommy Armour’s book "How to play your best golf all the time". One thing I remember in particular is that he said he never gave his pupils more than one thing to work on in a single lesson, and that trying to give them too many things to think about was a major problem with most golf instructors. Especially with a grip change, I should think that would take quite some time to get used to! A few times I have tried to think about more than one thing I want to try and do at a time, its always a disaster. So if I think about anything, its one thing and one thing only. I’d pick one of those to work on at a time, and pick a new instructor while you are at it. — If the RIAA sold CPUs, they’d be bribing Congress to make overclocking a felony
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Every time after I take a lesson, my golf game is bad for some time. This last time I was given the following tips: 1. He told me to switch to a more neutral grip. (A lesson a year ago told me to go to a stronger grip – I wonder whether they know or whether they just tell everybody the same thing). 2. He wants me to make sure my back swing points to the target – and no more. 3. He wants me to always do the follow thru. I tend to stop when I see my ball, as seeing my ball is the toughest part of my game. 4. Keep my right knee bent. I haven’t ever taken a lesson, but I did read Tommy Armour’s book "How to play your best golf all the time". One thing I remember in particular is that he said he never gave his pupils more than one thing to work on in a single lesson, and that trying to give them too many things to think about was a major problem with most golf instructors. Especially with a grip change, I should think that would take quite some time to get used to! A few times I have tried to think about more than one thing I want to try and do at a time, its always a disaster. So if I think about anything, its one thing and one thing only. I’d pick one of those to work on at a time, and pick a new instructor while you are at it.
A guy who hasn’t taken a lesson is suggesting someone should find a new instructor doesn’t make sense to me. I’ve taught skiing for many years and have played sports all of my life and one thing I know is that not everyone responds to instruction/coaching the same. Some people can only handle one thing in a lesson and others can handle much more. Immediately after my golf lessons I make a list of all the tips/suggestions, key focus items that I was given during the lesson. Sometimes this list has nearly ten items. During the following two weeks or so I struggle but by the end of the third week it all starts to click. At the beginning of the next lesson we do a check to confirm that I’ve correctly assimilated the items from the last lesson before moving on…and there is always more to learn! -WG
Response:
After taking lessons, one’s game typically is in the toilet for a couple of weeks. You need to realize that your instrutor has asked you to make some significant swing changes and trust me, it will take time for you to incorporate these changes into your swing. I would consider working on one thing at a time (like keeping your right knee flexed) and see how your swing changes. After you have engrained that into your swing memory, move onto to the next one. Peeps
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Every time after I take a lesson, my golf game is bad for some time. This last time I was given the following tips: 1. He told me to switch to a more neutral grip. (A lesson a year ago told me to go to a stronger grip – I wonder whether they know or whether they just tell everybody the same thing). 2. He wants me to make sure my back swing points to the target – and no more. 3. He wants me to always do the follow thru. I tend to stop when I see my ball, as seeing my ball is the toughest part of my game. 4. Keep my right knee bent. Not much. But when I took a bucket of balls today, I rarely hit the ball square. I was always too high or too low. I tried doing 1/3 swing and I was always too high or too low. It doesn’t happen during the lesson, but always after I break something – and it takes months to fix it.
Response:
Every time after I take a lesson, my golf game is bad for some time. This last time I was given the following tips: 1. He told me to switch to a more neutral grip. (A lesson a year ago told me to go to a stronger grip – I wonder whether they know or whether they just tell everybody the same thing). 2. He wants me to make sure my back swing points to the target – and no more. 3. He wants me to always do the follow thru. I tend to stop when I see my ball, as seeing my ball is the toughest part of my game. 4. Keep my right knee bent. Not much. But when I took a bucket of balls today, I rarely hit the ball square. I was always too high or too low. I tried doing 1/3 swing and I was always too high or too low. It doesn’t happen during the lesson, but always after I break something – and it takes months to fix it.
Response:
Every time after I take a lesson, my golf game is bad for some time. This last time I was given the following tips: Then stop taking lessions! :)
Or stop playing after lessons! Dun dun dun, another one bites the dust!