Question:
Okay. I got a 7 Iron by ProSelect with a cavity back. It was my fisr club and I practiced with it almost every day. (iv been practicing on the range for 3 weeks now, not played a round yet) As I got a better swing, I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs. I didnt wana get a mixed set of Irons, so it took longer than normal. Evntualy I found a full set of clubs by….. Herman Barron?? (who the heck?. who made the clubs and are they ay good?) I have no idea the quality of the clubs. But, the face is solid and not Cavity. Iv taken them to the range and tried out the different clubs and done really well. No slices, and I hit the sweet spot squair on pretty much 90% of the time. Okay, they are a little heavy, but I will get used to that as I use them more. Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Whats the differenece? I was told that Cavity back clubs are more "forgiving" if you dont strike the sweetspot. But they arnt as accurate as the solid ones. They are more beginner – amature – advanced clubs….
Response:
I’d stick with what you have right now….at least for the next 6-12 months. By that time you’ll figure out how much you want to play this game. You may want to also take a lesson or two along the way and ask the opinion of the instructor (about your clubs). Then I would go to a driving range that also sells clubs and ask to try out some of their irons before you buy….then you can compare the sets side-by-side. Make your own decision based upon how you hit them, not based upon anything you read here or elsewhere. I learned to play with forged blade irons and think it not only added to my enjoyment of the game (that feeling of a solid hit was indescribable) but also my progress as a golfer. I later switched to cavity backs (2 different sets) because everyone told me I would play better. They were wrong, and I switched back to forged. Others will tell you an opposite story….we’re all different with our own preferences, so this is one you should decide on your own based upon performance of the clubs in your hands…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay. I got a 7 Iron by ProSelect with a cavity back. It was my fisr club and I practiced with it almost every day. (iv been practicing on the range for 3 weeks now, not played a round yet) As I got a better swing, I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs. I didnt wana get a mixed set of Irons, so it took longer than normal. Evntualy I found a full set of clubs by….. Herman Barron?? (who the heck?. who made the clubs and are they ay good?) I have no idea the quality of the clubs. But, the face is solid and not Cavity. Iv taken them to the range and tried out the different clubs and done really well. No slices, and I hit the sweet spot squair on pretty much 90% of the time. Okay, they are a little heavy, but I will get used to that as I use them more. Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Whats the differenece? I was told that Cavity back clubs are more "forgiving" if you dont strike the sweetspot. But they arnt as accurate as the solid ones. They are more beginner – amature – advanced clubs….
Response:
Cavity backs are lighter so they are easier to swing. Then when you get your swing muscles stronger, you can square the face faster and cure your slice. It won’t help a hook though because cavity backs have a draw bias built in to them. The only way to cure the hook is to change the lie and that requires bending the shaft so it has a slice bias built in to it. But then you need to worry about too much spin like Davis Love did in the Presidents club, but that’s another problem all together……
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay. I got a 7 Iron by ProSelect with a cavity back. It was my fisr club and I practiced with it almost every day. (iv been practicing on the range for 3 weeks now, not played a round yet) As I got a better swing, I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs. I didnt wana get a mixed set of Irons, so it took longer than normal. Evntualy I found a full set of clubs by….. Herman Barron?? (who the heck?. who made the clubs and are they ay good?) I have no idea the quality of the clubs. But, the face is solid and not Cavity. Iv taken them to the range and tried out the different clubs and done really well. No slices, and I hit the sweet spot squair on pretty much 90% of the time. Okay, they are a little heavy, but I will get used to that as I use them more. Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Whats the differenece? I was told that Cavity back clubs are more "forgiving" if you dont strike the sweetspot. But they arnt as accurate as the solid ones. They are more beginner – amature – advanced clubs….
Response:
Cavity backs are lighter so they are easier to swing.
This, actually, turns out not to be the case. The heads weigh more or less the same as blades or musclebacks, within the design specifications. Cavity backs may trend higher in weight within the same manufacturer than blades, but it’s only a few grams. In fact, whether a cavity back weighs more than a blade simply depends on…their weight. Here are two examples which show that it’s not always the case: The first is the forged blade offering from KZG. As a point of comparison, note the specs for the forged blade 5-iron: 256 grams. http://kzgolf.com/forgedblades.html Now look at the Golfsmith Tour Cavity Forged 5-iron: 254 grams. http://golfsmith.com/cm/ppage.php?stynum=2148&cseq=~C284598&lcode= The heaviness of Adrian’s clubs is almost certainly not due to the weight of the head, or the design of the head. Instead, that feeling of heaviness might come from extra weight added in the hosel or down the shaft, heavier shafts than those he’s comparing to, or longer lengths. Then when you get your swing muscles stronger, you can square the face faster and cure your slice. It won’t help a hook though because cavity backs have a draw bias built in to them.
They do? I’ve never read that. Can you point me to a reference? I’m surprised because I know a lot of people who hit cavity backs who also hit fades/slices with them. I’m wondering why that draw bias isn’t working for them. The only way to cure the hook is to change the lie and that requires bending the shaft so it has a slice bias built in to it.
This, actually, turns out not to be the case. Hooks come from the clubface being closed to the path of clubhead travel. They’re much more severe than a draw. You can have a draw or fade bias based on lie angle, but without actually checking to see if this is the case, there’s no way to know. Clubheads vary within the same design due to tolerances in manufacturing. They’re not all the same. In fact, you can tell that by looking at the clubs in the links above: They have loft and lie and weight described as within a tolerance. Further, if you need to adjust loft and/or lie in an iron, you bend the clubhead at the hosel, you don’t bend the shaft. But then you need to worry about too much spin like Davis Love did in the Presidents club, but that’s another problem all together……
Adrian is nowhere near having to worry about too much spin. Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Response:
As I got a better swing, I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs. I didnt wana get a mixed set of Irons, so it took longer than normal. Evntualy I found a full set of clubs by….. Herman Barron?? (who the
I have a herman baron expiditer sand wedge + recently took it to a local shop who gave me the whole low down.Herman barron was a very popular club pro in the 60’s (eithor at wing foot or fenway ,some local private westchester ny club)based on his popularity they were marketed like you might find clubs today at walmart "fuzzy zeller’s or such not great quality . ps: this club never made it full time in my bag .
Response:
I got a 7 Iron by ProSelect with a cavity back. It was my fisr club and I I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs.
PAGING MIKE DELICKI
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay. I got a 7 Iron by ProSelect with a cavity back. It was my fisr club and I practiced with it almost every day. (iv been practicing on the range for 3 weeks now, not played a round yet) As I got a better swing, I went out and scowered the Goodwill stores for clubs. I didnt wana get a mixed set of Irons, so it took longer than normal. Evntualy I found a full set of clubs by….. Herman Barron?? (who the heck?. who made the clubs and are they ay good?) I have no idea the quality of the clubs. But, the face is solid and not Cavity. Iv taken them to the range and tried out the different clubs and done really well. No slices, and I hit the sweet spot squair on pretty much 90% of the time. Okay, they are a little heavy, but I will get used to that as I use them more. Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet)
Since it looks like your goal is to improve, I see no reason to change what you’re playing. If you can hit them effectively, why change? Blades (what you have, also sometimes known as musclebacks) tend to magnify the feeling of a mishit, and they’ll magnify the mistake. That can be good from a learning point of view. Cavity-backs distribute the weight of the clubhead to the perimeter in varying degrees; this can help to produce somewhat better ballflight on mishits, though it can be harder to feel it at the time. In other words, you may only discover it’s a mishit after the ball lands, and that can make it hard to connect what you did with the result. But cavity-backs can be very appropriate for people who play only occasionally and can’t devote the time to keep a swing sharp. Nothing wrong with them. Whats the differenece? I was told that Cavity back clubs are more "forgiving" if you dont strike the sweetspot. But they arnt as accurate as the solid ones. They are more beginner – amature – advanced clubs….
Accurate? Not necessarily any difference. There are pros who play cavity backs. The club champion at my course plays cavity backs. But realize that what makes a club playable or not only starts w/ the design of the head. In most cases, the shaft is more important than the head, as well as the swingweight, length, etc. Two other things: First, if you haven’t had any lessons yet, I suggest you get them. You’re early enough in your golf career that you presumably haven’t developed too many bad habits that will be hard to break. I went 25 years before my first lesson; you have no idea how much I wish I’d had them when I was 15, not when I was 40. Second, welcome to RSG, and to golf! Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Response:
Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Cavity-backs distribute the weight of the clubhead to the perimeter in varying degrees; this can help to produce somewhat better ballflight on mishits, though it can be harder to feel it at the time.
I guess I would question if the cavity back club "hits better" on off center hits or just "feels better". It seems like it would be easy enough for the manufacturer to set up one of those ball hitting robots, and adjust it to hit a quarter or half inch off center and measure the distance the ball goes. But I’ve never seen anyone advertise such results. Just sales talk. I was hitting a long iron on a 185 yard par three last week. The tee was muddy and I got under it a slight bit, hitting the ball a little high on the clubface. Mud went spraying into my eyes, but I saw the ball take off toward the green. The ball felt like a rock, terrible, and I didn’t expect it to go 150 yards. After getting to the green, I was very surprised to see the ball one foot behind the hole, with a ballmark 8 feet in front of the hole. Donald
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Cavity-backs distribute the weight of the clubhead to the perimeter in varying degrees; this can help to produce somewhat better ballflight on mishits, though it can be harder to feel it at the time. I guess I would question if the cavity back club "hits better" on off center hits or just "feels better". It seems like it would be easy enough for the manufacturer to set up one of those ball hitting robots, and adjust it to hit a quarter or half inch off center and measure the distance the ball goes. But I’ve never seen anyone advertise such results. Just sales talk.
I remember someone in RSG saying that Golf Digest had done such a test a few years ago and found that blades went further on mishits, contrary to popular opinion. Can anyone confirm that? — "I feel sorry for people who don’t drink. When they wake up in the morning, that’s as good as they’re going to feel all day" — Frank Sinatra
Response:
Cavity backs are lighter so they are easier to swing. This, actually, turns out not to be the case. The heads weigh more or less the same as blades or musclebacks, within the design specifications. Cavity backs may trend higher in weight within the same manufacturer than blades, but it’s only a few grams. In fact, whether a cavity back weighs more than a blade simply depends on…their weight.
of a special light weight alloy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here are two examples which show that it’s not always the case: The first is the forged blade offering from KZG. As a point of comparison, note the specs for the forged blade 5-iron: 256 grams. http://kzgolf.com/forgedblades.html Now look at the Golfsmith Tour Cavity Forged 5-iron: 254 grams. http://golfsmith.com/cm/ppage.php?stynum=2148&cseq=~C284598&lcode= The heaviness of Adrian’s clubs is almost certainly not due to the weight of the head, or the design of the head. Instead, that feeling of heaviness might come from extra weight added in the hosel or down the shaft, heavier shafts than those he’s comparing to, or longer lengths. Then when you get your swing muscles stronger, you can square the face faster and cure your slice. It won’t help a hook though because cavity backs have a draw bias built in to them. They do? I’ve never read that. Can you point me to a reference? I’m surprised because I know a lot of people who hit cavity backs who also hit fades/slices with them. I’m wondering why that draw bias isn’t working for them.
Actually my clubmaker made me a set with draw bias. I was having trouble with my slice so rather than fix my swing, I elected to have a special set of clubs made that had a bend in the shaft to add bias. My slice went away but now I’m having trouble with my distance. I used to only hit a 9, 100 yards but now it’s going 160. I worked on my fast twitch muscles over last winter and now I can square the club face quicker so I may need to have the bias taken out. The only way to cure the hook is to change the lie and that requires bending the shaft so it has a slice bias built in to it. This, actually, turns out not to be the case. Hooks come from the clubface being closed to the path of clubhead travel. They’re much more severe than a draw. You can have a draw or fade bias based on lie angle, but without actually checking to see if this is the case, there’s no way to know. Clubheads vary within the same design due to tolerances in manufacturing. They’re not all the same. In fact, you can tell that by looking at the clubs in the links above: They have loft and lie and weight described as within a tolerance.
Yes I understand but what about spin? You need to factor in the spin on the ball. Further, if you need to adjust loft and/or lie in an iron, you bend the clubhead at the hosel, you don’t bend the shaft.
No, I’m not interested in a set of clubs built with shoddy workmanship. Until you learn where to bend a club, you will not get me to go to your website and look at your clubs that you are trying to sell in RSG. But then you need to worry about too much spin like Davis Love did in the Presidents club, but that’s another problem all together…… Adrian is nowhere near having to worry about too much spin.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cavity backs are lighter so they are easier to swing. This, actually, turns out not to be the case. The heads weigh more or less the same as blades or musclebacks, within the design specifications. Cavity backs may trend higher in weight within the same manufacturer than blades, but it’s only a few grams. In fact, whether a cavity back weighs more than a blade simply depends on…their weight. of a special light weight alloy.
Actually, you stated a generalization about cavity backs which turns out not to be true. It’s only true in your case because you had them specially made. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here are two examples which show that it’s not always the case: The first is the forged blade offering from KZG. As a point of comparison, note the specs for the forged blade 5-iron: 256 grams. http://kzgolf.com/forgedblades.html Now look at the Golfsmith Tour Cavity Forged 5-iron: 254 grams. http://golfsmith.com/cm/ppage.php?stynum=2148&cseq=~C284598&lcode= The heaviness of Adrian’s clubs is almost certainly not due to the weight of the head, or the design of the head. Instead, that feeling of heaviness might come from extra weight added in the hosel or down the shaft, heavier shafts than those he’s comparing to, or longer lengths. Then when you get your swing muscles stronger, you can square the face faster and cure your slice. It won’t help a hook though because cavity backs have a draw bias built in to them. They do? I’ve never read that. Can you point me to a reference? I’m surprised because I know a lot of people who hit cavity backs who also hit fades/slices with them. I’m wondering why that draw bias isn’t working for them. Actually my clubmaker made me a set with draw bias.
So actually, you don’t really know what you’re talking about, do you? You only know about *your* set, which information is useles for Adrian. I was having trouble with my slice so rather than fix my swing, I elected to have a special set of clubs made that had a bend in the shaft to add bias. My slice went away but now I’m having trouble with my distance. I used to only hit a 9, 100 yards but now it’s going 160. I worked on my fast twitch muscles over last winter and now I can square the club face quicker so I may need to have the bias taken out.
The only way to cure the hook is to change the lie and that requires bending the shaft so it has a slice bias built in to it. This, actually, turns out not to be the case. Hooks come from the clubface being closed to the path of clubhead travel. They’re much more severe than a draw. You can have a draw or fade bias based on lie angle, but without actually checking to see if this is the case, there’s no way to know. Clubheads vary within the same design due to tolerances in manufacturing. They’re not all the same. In fact, you can tell that by looking at the clubs in the links above: They have loft and lie and weight described as within a tolerance. Yes I understand but what about spin? You need to factor in the spin on the ball.
Where do you think the curvature of the ball comes from? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Further, if you need to adjust loft and/or lie in an iron, you bend the clubhead at the hosel, you don’t bend the shaft. No, I’m not interested in a set of clubs built with shoddy workmanship. Until you learn where to bend a club, you will not get me to go to your website and look at your clubs that you are trying to sell in RSG. But then you need to worry about too much spin like Davis Love did in the Presidents club, but that’s another problem all together…… Adrian is nowhere near having to worry about too much spin.
This is a very clever troll. Fast twitch? Sheesh. Buh-bye. Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Cavity-backs distribute the weight of the clubhead to the perimeter in varying degrees; this can help to produce somewhat better ballflight on mishits, though it can be harder to feel it at the time. I guess I would question if the cavity back club "hits better" on off center hits or just "feels better". It seems like it would be easy enough for the manufacturer to set up one of those ball hitting robots, and adjust it to hit a quarter or half inch off center and measure the distance the ball goes. But I’ve never seen anyone advertise such results. Just sales talk. I remember someone in RSG saying that Golf Digest had done such a test a few years ago and found that blades went further on mishits, contrary to popular opinion. Can anyone confirm that? —
Yes.They compared the results of miss hits between a cavity back design and a blade ( muscleback). They used an Iron Byron machine to swing the club and they made sure that the misses were the same between the clubs. The results showed that there was less dispersion from the intended target with blades, and that the shots flew longer toward the intended target with the blades. It made no mention of the results of "feel" comparisons, as that could not be tested by the machine. But in all cases–toe, heel, and perfect shots, the blades gave closer shots to the intended target.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes.They compared the results of miss hits between a cavity back design and a blade ( muscleback). They used an Iron Byron machine to swing the club and they made sure that the misses were the same between the clubs. The results showed that there was less dispersion from the intended target with blades, and that the shots flew longer toward the intended target with the blades. It made no mention of the results of "feel" comparisons, as that could not be tested by the machine. But in all cases–toe, heel, and perfect shots, the blades gave closer shots to the intended target.
See now this goes against something a few manufacturers told me. The Cavity back is lighter, but they compensate for the change in dencity by adding the nipple/bump inset thing inside the cavity. The otherall design is supposed to distribute the impact across the club face better than a blade, making a better "feel" as you strike the ball. Its also supposed to make mishits less dramatic. Because the dencity of the club is distributed around the center, rather than flat across the whole face. Seems these manufaturers just wanted me to buy their Titanium inset Cavity Irons….. 
Well, I was going to go play my first round today. But the club is packed!!. I got done by 8:00 and the front 9 was already chock full of golfers. The owner said they had over 200 bookings today….. Nuts! — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Response:
That echoes my experience…mishits on forged blades feel very harsh, and you are shocked to see the ball go almost as far as a pure hit. With cavity backs the mishits don’t feel nearly as bad — often not much different than a "pure" strike.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sine Im doing so well with these solid clubs. Is it really worth me going out and getting a set of cheap clubs that are Cavitybacked?? (I say "cheap" because I am a beginner and I dont want to spend $400 on a set of irons yet) Cavity-backs distribute the weight of the clubhead to the perimeter in varying degrees; this can help to produce somewhat better ballflight on mishits, though it can be harder to feel it at the time. I guess I would question if the cavity back club "hits better" on off center hits or just "feels better". It seems like it would be easy enough for the manufacturer to set up one of those ball hitting robots, and adjust it to hit a quarter or half inch off center and measure the distance the ball goes. But I’ve never seen anyone advertise such results. Just sales talk. I was hitting a long iron on a 185 yard par three last week. The tee was muddy and I got under it a slight bit, hitting the ball a little high on the clubface. Mud went spraying into my eyes, but I saw the ball take off toward the green. The ball felt like a rock, terrible, and I didn’t expect it to go 150 yards. After getting to the green, I was very surprised to see the ball one foot behind the hole, with a ballmark 8 feet in front of the hole. Donald
Response:
Mike…as much as I attack it is not personal and I deeply respect your reluctance to mix it up.You probably understand its the policy that is(I / We believe ) wrong,not you for maximising your exposure( and profit) from within this non commercial group. I also like that you tell all beginners who ask about equipment to take lessons. this benefits golf in general. Happy Thanksgiving and hope you and your family have a happy healthy holiday season.
Response:
of a special light weight alloy.
What special alloy is that? I hope you’re a better golfer than troll. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor