Question:
"OTT is a path problem
No It’s a plane problem. Brad
Response:
Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg
I picked up an old instruction book by Count Yogi. It has a couple pictures of him swinging a driver with his teeth. I think that would be bad advice for weekend hackers. Zig
Response:
Totally agree about positions, but George, even with a too strong or too weak grip, wouldn’t you tend to see a correcting ball flight when the timing of release and address alignment is proper? OTT is a path problem caused by the TOP BEGINNING of the downswing being thrown out so far that to get TO the ball, the path is across the target line, right to left. No amount of compensatory grip or timing changes THAT, but a grip or club with correction for slice can help to prevent more serious final resulting ball position by bringing the ball back TO the fairway…
What I’m saying above is if you *don’t* come over the top and *do* have a well timed release (basically the same thing, IMHO). Wouldn’t any grip with good timing, no OTT and proper alignment result in at least a correcting ball flight? (i.e very strong grip=strong draw/hook, but at the target……very weak grip=strong fade/slice but at the target). I agree wholeheartedly that a grip change along will not help….like you said before, it’s a position thing…….IMHO, positions that allow you to avoid OTT and release the club efficiently and accurately. — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson
Response:
I agree….I think it really introduces a lot of tension at impact as you try to hold on and delay the release. It also causes an over the top motion as something has to release at impact….in this case the upper body…..causing shanks, pushes, fat shots, pull hooks, etc. I also think that very few release the club too early. Well said above.
I worked on this myself with my own pro a few months ago. A change in concept from "late release" to "releasing into impact" made a huge change in my swing (especially with the driver). I gained a large distance increase for a start, as the clubhead accelerated more into the ball. I also square the clubhead better. The worst thing a lot of amateurs can do is to try to emulate Sergio Garcia. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For me, the infamous "delayed release" advice was the worst advice/concept I ever embraced. It was the root cause of my slice. A few years ago I watched Nicklaus’ video and he mentioned in it that he STARTS releasing the club as soon as he starts his movement forward. I started trying that mental image of continually releasing my wrists back to square at the point of impact and voila! – no more slice (and MUCH improved accuracy too, I must say). I think too many PGA teaching pros think the average amateur has comparable wrist strength/quickness/coordination of the pros they work with and assume the "delayed release" is a golf gospel testament. They all preach that an early release is the culprit of a multitude of sins but frankly, I’ve never even SEEN a golfer that "casts" the club or otherwise releases "too early". IMO – the reality is, telling the average "bogey" (or worse) golfer to "delay" their release usually results -predictably – in the clubhead staying wide-open at impact. It’s no wonder most amatuers I agree….I think it really introduces a lot of tension at impact as you try to hold on and delay the release. It also causes an over the top motion as something has to release at impact….in this case the upper body…..causing shanks, pushes, fat shots, pull hooks, etc. I also think that very few release the club too early. Well said above. — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson
When the underlying cause of slicing is a too weak grip (taken because of the mandates of "put the back of your left hand facing the target," late or early "release" will not fix it. Late or early merely uses, or wastes, or is too late FOR, clubhead closing and the potential energy of the angle of the L position during delivery to be used at the appropriate time. So release as it is not precisely enough referred to involves more than clubface angle at impact: its much more elusive part is exactly WHEN it occurs, and the fact it needs to be set UP through a grip that permits the L without bouncing back, a backswing that doesn’t bounce it, a downswing that doesn’t rush its dissipation, and a free and loose "wristjoint" where it can release without tension or holdback when the critical angle FOR release occurs naturally in the downswing. And for the clubface to be square AT impact, it needs to have been taken in the left hand to begin with in a position to permit square at impact. You can’t manage it properly during the swing. And it is not about "effort," strength, or anything at all similar. It is simply a POSITIONAL issue. HTH. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com
Response:
skp to: Totally agree about positions, but George, even with a too strong or too weak grip, wouldn’t you tend to see a correcting ball flight when the timing of release and address alignment is proper?
OTT is a path problem caused by the TOP BEGINNING of the downswing being thrown out so far that to get TO the ball, the path is across the target line, right to left. No amount of compensatory grip or timing changes THAT, but a grip or club with correction for slice can help to prevent more serious final resulting ball position by bringing the ball back TO the fairway… IMHO, over-the-top really means that you didn’t release the club properly.
The way I am familiar with that term it is a movement of the "wagon wheel of the swinging arm plane" to an alignment across the target line: it is as though you placed a wheel in the rut from ball to target, but instead of leaving it aimed at the target, you turned it left so that it rolls left of the target. This happens in a golf swing when the beginning of the swing is out from you towards the target line wall in front of your body, instead of down from the top TOWARDS the base of the target line on the ground. In most cases, it means that the shoulders take over, the grip gets too tense and the release is too late……unless your doing nothing but hitting worm burners and bladed wedges.
A tense grip obviously slows down the uncocking, yes. One of the first things I tried when working on my over the top/late release problems was strengthening my grip. Made my problems much worse.
Predictably, since you are alREAdy swinging left of target. The strong grip made my swing plane worse…..more upright on the backswing, more reverse pivot, and more OTT on the way down, more grip tension, etc. I pretty much play with a neutral strength diagonal left hand grip. I also started playing without a glove and shifted to a Vardon pinky grip in February after spending 9 years with an interlocking grip with a glove. Don’t know if this really matters.
Vardon, 5 finger, or interlock don’t seem to affect the core issue of grip mechanics other than to allow a golfer to have a comfortable fit between his two hands. The issues are wristbend, wristcock angles, natural position of forearms at release (wristwatch facing where?), etc. My fixes for my OTT and late release came from practicing (1) a slight reverse/backwards press at address (ala Freddy Couples) which encouraged (2) proper wrist hinge on the backswing (more right wrist, flattening the left wrist)…thanks for this one George!…..(3) straighter right arm/more width (helped with one piece takeaway, flatter plane, better shoulder turn, weight shift)…..(4) gravity fall towards the target to start the downswing.
THAT is held by most of "us" teaching as being supremely important — moving the hands down before moving the right shoulder or hips around.. ..thanks again George (helps "park the shoulders" to avoid OTT), (5) feel clubhead lag on the downswing towards impact (helps reinforce #4 above). Thanks for the dialog.
That’s what this forum is all about IMO. It’s nice that it CAN be such. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When the underlying cause of slicing is a too weak grip (taken because of the mandates of "put the back of your left hand facing the target," late or early "release" will not fix it. Late or early merely uses, or wastes, or is too late FOR, clubhead closing and the potential energy of the angle of the L position during delivery to be used at the appropriate time. So release as it is not precisely enough referred to involves more than clubface angle at impact: its much more elusive part is exactly WHEN it occurs, and the fact it needs to be set UP through a grip that permits the L without bouncing back, a backswing that doesn’t bounce it, a downswing that doesn’t rush its dissipation, and a free and loose "wristjoint" where it can release without tension or holdback when the critical angle FOR release occurs naturally in the downswing. And for the clubface to be square AT impact, it needs to have been taken in the left hand to begin with in a position to permit square at impact. You can’t manage it properly during the swing. And it is not about "effort," strength, or anything at all similar. It is simply a POSITIONAL issue.
Totally agree about positions, but George, even with a too strong or too weak grip, wouldn’t you tend to see a correcting ball flight when the timing of release and address alignment is proper? IMHO, over-the-top really means that you didn’t release the club properly. In most cases, it means that the shoulders take over, the grip gets too tense and the release is too late……unless your doing nothing but hitting worm burners and bladed wedges. One of the first things I tried when working on my over the top/late release problems was strengthening my grip. Made my problems much worse. The strong grip made my swing plane worse…..more upright on the backswing, more reverse pivot, and more OTT on the way down, more grip tension, etc. I pretty much play with a neutral strength diagonal left hand grip. I also started playing without a glove and shifted to a Vardon pinky grip in February after spending 9 years with an interlocking grip with a glove. Don’t know if this really matters. My fixes for my OTT and late release came from practicing (1) a slight reverse/backwards press at address (ala Freddy Couples) which encouraged (2) proper wrist hinge on the backswing (more right wrist, flattening the left wrist)…thanks for this one George!…..(3) straighter right arm/more width (helped with one piece takeaway, flatter plane, better shoulder turn, weight shift)…..(4) gravity fall towards the target to start the downswing…thanks again George (helps "park the shoulders" to avoid OTT), (5) feel clubhead lag on the downswing towards impact (helps reinforce #4 above). Thanks for the dialog. — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson
Response:
Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why?
I don’t know the specific advice, but once I had a lesson where the pro gave me "4 major things to work on before our next lesson, when we’ll discuss another 3 or 4 things to work on". Well that was just too much for me to ingest at once. I ended up chasing my tail and getting nowhere. On top of that, I started second-guessing what the next 3 or 4 things might be and compounded the tail-chasing. BW (Jeff Buege)
Response:
Probably my first lesson, when a well intentioned pro (and probably a decent teacher) mainly worked on getting me to shift my weight backward/forward. I spent at least six months to a year swaying back way outside my right foot. Very difficult to make consistent contact when you sway back and forth like that 8^). Finally figured out thru a combination of reading, lessons, and a friend’s advice that I had to keep my back knee flexed/firm/still and my weight inside my back foot .. it was like a light getting turned on. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg
Response:
The advice when something like this: ‘Hey,… you should take up golf.’ 
Been hooked ever since. The worse I play, the more involved I get with golf.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg
Response:
The advice when something like this: ‘Hey,… you should take up golf.’
LOL. I’ve been thinking about buying this book lately: http://makeashorterlink.com/?B20F23801 Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Response:
Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg
I’ve got to nominate "grip it and rip it". Sure, I know … get a life, no fun, etc etc. But if you took up golf in middle age, if you’re a high handicapper, and if you care about getting better, "grip it and rip it" is really really dumb advice. K
Response:
For me, the infamous "delayed release" advice was the worst advice/concept I ever embraced. It was the root cause of my slice. A few years ago I watched Nicklaus’ video and he mentioned in it that he STARTS releasing the club as soon as he starts his movement forward. I started trying that mental image of continually releasing my wrists back to square at the point of impact and voila! – no more slice (and MUCH improved accuracy too, I must say). I think too many PGA teaching pros think the average amateur has comparable wrist strength/quickness/coordination of the pros they work with and assume the "delayed release" is a golf gospel testament. They all preach that an early release is the culprit of a multitude of sins but frankly, I’ve never even SEEN a golfer that "casts" the club or otherwise releases "too early". IMO – the reality is, telling the average "bogey" (or worse) golfer to "delay" their release usually results -predictably – in the clubhead staying wide-open at impact. It’s no wonder most amatuers
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg
Response:
Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg I’ve got to nominate "grip it and rip it". Sure, I know … get a life, no fun, etc etc. But if you took up golf in middle age, if you’re a high handicapper, and if you care about getting better, "grip it and rip it" is really really dumb advice.
Oh, I thought the "rip it" part referred to your rotator cuff or back muscles.
Response:
…frankly, I’ve never even SEEN a golfer that "casts" the club or otherwise releases "too early".
Really? I have, even slicers. Especially slicers. IMO – the reality is, telling the average "bogey" (or worse) golfer to "delay" their release usually results -predictably – in the clubhead staying wide-open at impact. It’s no wonder most amatuers
I agree that can be a tough nut to crack. It’s one of those things where you have to fix 2 problems to make it work right. Just fix one, and you’ve got a disaster. Most golfers play their whole lives with 2 problems (or 4, or 6). One problem compensates for another. But when you have an odd number of problems, then the results are especially bad. This is one reason a lot of people don’t make a long term effort to improve. They stick with one change for awhile, but it doesn’t fit with their other problems so they get worse. Hank Haney pointed this out, I believe.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For me, the infamous "delayed release" advice was the worst advice/concept I ever embraced. It was the root cause of my slice. A few years ago I watched Nicklaus’ video and he mentioned in it that he STARTS releasing the club as soon as he starts his movement forward. I started trying that mental image of continually releasing my wrists back to square at the point of impact and voila! – no more slice (and MUCH improved accuracy too, I must say). I think too many PGA teaching pros think the average amateur has comparable wrist strength/quickness/coordination of the pros they work with and assume the "delayed release" is a golf gospel testament. They all preach that an early release is the culprit of a multitude of sins but frankly, I’ve never even SEEN a golfer that "casts" the club or otherwise releases "too early". IMO – the reality is, telling the average "bogey" (or worse) golfer to "delay" their release usually results -predictably – in the clubhead staying wide-open at impact. It’s no wonder most amatuers
Your experience is quite valid indeed. That is one huge side of the coin. The other is that 90% of all golfers FORCE AN EARLY UNCOCKING. We use the word "release" for the phenomenon of the clubshaft moving from an "L" wristcock at the top of the backswing to an in-line relationship to the left forearm at impact, when in fact those 90% are not releasing at all, but deliberately losing that L with the clubshaft because of one of several different reasons: 1) a failure ever to fully cock the wrists TO an "L" position. 2) a rebound or bounce caused by a jolt/too fast backswing. 3) a rebound or bounce caused by a grip taken too diagonally in the left hand and/or too much in the fist of the right hand so that the tension built up (like a loaded spring) is too much, and to ease it the golfer MUST allow the "L" to be dissipated almost immediately; 4) a subconscious fear that "if I don’t help that clubshaft go now, it won’t get to an on-line-for-impact position in time." 5) a downswing controlled by right hand "slap of the palm" motion (the reason Greg Norman created his "The Secret" device placed on the right hand that prevents the right wrist from flattening during the forward swing): i.e., to retain ITS cock or back-bend through impact, so that the wristbone, not the palm, acts on the fulcrum of the club, as opposed to the palm pushing the shaft into the ball. So misperception of what to do with the club is at the heart of "early release" – hence shoving the head into the ball instead of alLOWing the catchup that is a result OF moving the fulcrum of a "loaded L" down from the top. If indeed there IS no early pressure or pushaway of the shaft, I have just looked at 20 swings of pupils from sheer beginners to accomplished low handicappers. All but two were early release, wasted uncocking, and each person had one of these reasons that were at the heart of it. Once pointed out, those able to "get the message" immediately improved their distances – many by two or three clubs! And both newcomers AND others got the lights turned on for the first time in their lives. Release just happens. But pushing the club is the problem. Obviously, TRYing to hold the wristcock interferes with the natural release which does begin early in the downswing. And all golfers who do have a good L in the first place and accelerate the hands down in their arc run into a "critical point" or speed in that motion at which the release is inevitable and extremely powerful – impossible actually to prevent entirely due to the tremendous momentum of the extended club. FWIW George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com
Response:
Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why?
With this wind take one more club and step on it… (Wouldn’t been that bad had the golf gods not been in a foul mood. The 25-30 mph wind that had been blowing steadily in my face died the moment the club head made contact with the ball.) — Cheers- Jeff Setaro http://home.sprynet.com/~jasetaro/ PGP Key IDs DH/DSS: 0×5D41429D RSA: 0×599D2A99
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The advice when something like this: ‘Hey,… you should take up golf.’ LOL. I’ve been thinking about buying this book lately: http://makeashorterlink.com/?B20F23801 Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Dave, I read it and it’s OK. It has some funny parts others drag a little to long. In general a good weekend relaxing reading book. — Enrique http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=borregoenrique _ -(")- `%%% //
Response:
"You really ought to try playing golf, Chris. It’s very relaxing and a lot of fun!"
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For me, the infamous "delayed release" advice was the worst advice/concept I ever embraced. It was the root cause of my slice. A few years ago I watched Nicklaus’ video and he mentioned in it that he STARTS releasing the club as soon as he starts his movement forward. I started trying that mental image of continually releasing my wrists back to square at the point of impact and voila! – no more slice (and MUCH improved accuracy too, I must say). I think too many PGA teaching pros think the average amateur has comparable wrist strength/quickness/coordination of the pros they work with and assume the "delayed release" is a golf gospel testament. They all preach that an early release is the culprit of a multitude of sins but frankly, I’ve never even SEEN a golfer that "casts" the club or otherwise releases "too early". IMO – the reality is, telling the average "bogey" (or worse) golfer to "delay" their release usually results -predictably – in the clubhead staying wide-open at impact. It’s no wonder most amatuers
I agree….I think it really introduces a lot of tension at impact as you try to hold on and delay the release. It also causes an over the top motion as something has to release at impact….in this case the upper body…..causing shanks, pushes, fat shots, pull hooks, etc. I also think that very few release the club too early. Well said above. — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson
Response:
Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg
Response:
: Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? "Keep your head down," would be up there. : For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five : Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. I can see that. cb
Response:
Worst advise this month: Walk the back nine at Stonehenge in Fairfield Glade, Tennessee. Why it was so bad: There is a nine mile walk, straight up the hill, through the woods to #17. Worst advice ever: Get rid of that fade. Why: I don’t have a clue where my draw is headed. Gaines
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg
Response:
Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg
When I first started golfing I turned to the best golfer I knew about… Jack Nicklaus. I watched his video over and over, what a mistake! I tried to emulate his lower body movement especially the rolling of the ankles… I must have looked really funny trying to hit the ball that way, not to mention where the balls were ending up. I am just thankful that I didn’t know much about Arnie at the time Rod "Hey man you’ve got the real bum’s eye for clothes" The Tragically Hip
Response:
When I first started out about 6 years ago, I was at the range for the second time or so and this fellow gave me an unsolicited advice that I should have the toe of my club pointing downwards at the top of my backswing. That way, he told me, I can square up the clubface better at impact. Since I had just started out, I didn’t know better. So, sadly, I listened to him and took me a while to fix that and have learned, never, ever to listen to someone’s advice when at the range. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Name the worst golf advice/tip you ever received, and why? For me, it was trying to model Hogan’s swing, as described in his Five Fundamentals book. A nightmare if you are already a slicer. -Greg