Toughest courses

Question:

I just read a review of a golf course in Panama City Florida that said "Lagoon Legend has a course rating of 75.3 and a slope rating of 152 from its championship tees, which sets it apart as the second most challenging course in the United States". A quick check found The International at Castle Pines is tougher: http://www.gcsaa.org/media/factsheets/2002/pgatour/international.asp But it is quite possible that the person who wrote the review didn’t mean "all courses", or didn’t do research. What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? What are the toughest public courses in the United States and in the world? Are there some real tough courses that are not designed very well?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just read a review of a golf course in Panama City Florida that said "Lagoon Legend has a course rating of 75.3 and a slope rating of 152 from its championship tees, which sets it apart as the second most challenging course in the United States". A quick check found The International at Castle Pines is tougher: http://www.gcsaa.org/media/factsheets/2002/pgatour/international.asp But it is quite possible that the person who wrote the review didn’t mean "all courses", or didn’t do research. What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? What are the toughest public courses in the United States and in the world? Are there some real tough courses that are not designed very well?

Howard, I’d suggest you look at Dean Knuth’s article here: http://www.popeofslope.com/courserating/toughest.html You might also want to look at other articles on course rating on his site. BTW, I’ve played the International at Bolton, MA (previous toughest) and that’s a LOT of golf course!!! Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just read a review of a golf course in Panama City Florida that said "Lagoon Legend has a course rating of 75.3 and a slope rating of 152 from its championship tees, which sets it apart as the second most challenging course in the United States". A quick check found The International at Castle Pines is tougher: http://www.gcsaa.org/media/factsheets/2002/pgatour/international.asp But it is quite possible that the person who wrote the review didn’t mean "all courses", or didn’t do research. What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? What are the toughest public courses in the United States and in the world? Are there some real tough courses that are not designed very well?

Presuming that this is still accurate, Koolau Golf Club in Hawaii is the most difficult course in the U.S., with a slope of 162 and rating of 76.4 from the back tees at 7,310 yards. More information at: http://www.koolaugolfclub.com/golf.cfm HTH, Marc Schwartz

Response:

That indicates that the Lagoon Legend of 75.3/152 is NOT the 2nd toughest slope in the U.S. – but the article did say "rating". We have found Ko’olau has 162, and the two Internationals (Castle Pines & Bolton both have 155). Also The International has a rating of 77.4. I would expect that one or both of these also has a tougher rating. But I don’t know for sure. (And it could be that the author didn’t notice a qualification – of public courses in Continental U.S. only – or something like that). Is Bolton’s a public course?

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What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world?

Well, between looking at a scorecard from Bandon Dunes and some of the articles on the Pope of Slope’s site, Bandon just misses the list of "Courses with the highest slope ratings from the middle tees" – the golds (whites) are 69.7/132 – not bad for a course that’s 5716 yards long. The Green tees (blues) play to 72.1/141, and the big bad Blacks are 74.6/145. What I find interesting, though, is that the greens at Pacific Dunes sit at 70.9/131, and I found it MUCH tougher. But slope and rating doesn’t really seem to take how penal the rough is into consideration…and at Bandon, you seemed to always have a chance at escape. At Pac, you were dead – if you found your ball… Prof. Rev. Todd "Runyan" McGillivray, Esq. http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ Emailing me? tmcg at sasktel dot net. "Not sure what four nines does, but the ace, I think, is pretty high." – Danny Ocean, Ocean’s Eleven

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[...] Is Bolton’s a public course?

Nope. Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

[...] What I find interesting, though, is that the greens at Pacific Dunes sit at 70.9/131, and I found it MUCH tougher. But slope and rating doesn’t really seem to take how penal the rough is into consideration…and at Bandon, you seemed to always have a chance at escape. At Pac, you were dead – if you found your ball…

I haven’t seen these courses, Todd, but the USGA Rating System does indeed take rough into consideration…maybe even too much so since other obstacle ratings are based on rough height. (i.e. change the height and it changes several values in several other categories). Also, extremely deep, dense rough can (and should) be rated just as you would rate for OB. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

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The one I’m playing tomorrow.

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I’ve been very lucky this year and have played some of the top courses in the country, Pebble, Pinehurst, Orlando/Tampa area. but these two are real somabitches…. Kiawah Island Resort (Ocean Course) Rating 77.2 Slope 144 Par 72 Yardage 7296 Tobacco Road Rating 73.2 Slope 150 Par 71 Yardage 6554 What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? What are the toughest public courses in the United States and in the

world?

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Tobacco Road Rating 73.2 Slope 150 Par 71 Yardage 6554

A 150 slope at only 6554 yards?!? Wow. That’s gotta be tight and with a lot of water eh? — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson

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Maybe that’s what confuses me so much about Pacific’s ratings, then. You had…well, decently wide fairways, then a little bit of rough (but it wasn’t grown up at all, it was just like they didn’t water it) and then sand and gorse and other mysterious bushes. It’s way more penal than Bandon’s rough, and it’s got more OB, too…maybe it was the cross bunkering at Bandon that knocks the numbers around? I remember you explaining how things work that day we played in Hampton, and a lot of it has to do with the hazards you can reach with an assumed 200 yard drive (180 carry 20 roll) for a bogey golfer, and the scratch guy is 250 (225/25 with a draw)…and the width of those landing areas, any forced carries…yeah, it’s starting to add up. I don’t know. My memory’s skewed because I had no tee ball both rounds at Pacific but hit it decently well all three rounds at Bandon. I think I’m just embarrassed at the quality of play I turned in at Pacific, and am looking for excuses Prof. Rev. Todd "Runyan" McGillivray, Esq. http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ Emailing me? tmcg at sasktel dot net. "Not sure what four nines does, but the ace, I think, is pretty high." – Danny Ocean, Ocean’s Eleven

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: Tobacco Road : Rating 73.2 : Slope 150 : Par 71 : Yardage 6554 : :A 150 slope at only 6554 yards?!? Wow. That’s gotta be tight and with a :lot of water eh? : : Looks very entertaining from this: http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole1.html I don’t think it’s gonna make my "less than $40 with a cart" list though.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Tobacco Road : Rating 73.2 : Slope 150 : Par 71 : Yardage 6554 : :A 150 slope at only 6554 yards?!? Wow. That’s gotta be tight and with a :lot of water eh? : : Looks very entertaining from this: http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole1.html I don’t think it’s gonna make my "less than $40 with a cart" list though.

Ummmm, am I reading this wrong (please?) http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole6.html A 333 yard par 3! Almost all carry?! YIKES! Larry

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Tobacco Road Rating 73.2 Slope 150 Par 71 Yardage 6554 A 150 slope at only 6554 yards?!? Wow. That’s gotta be tight and with a lot of water eh?

It’s a pretty wild ride. I played there this spring and it’s a surreal kind of experience. It’s one of those courses that you probably need to play ten times before you’re confident about exactly where the hell you’re supposed to be hitting the ball. You really need a reliable tee ball on this course. My uncle got up on one of the huge mounds on the first hole and made triple. I laughed it up until I screwed myself over with my second shot (because I didn’t really know the distances). I think I made double or triple, too. (Follow along at http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole1.html !) I came to the second tee and asked "where’s the fairway?" Answer: over that long carry. I hit the third green and three-jacked. I pulled my drive on #4 a bit and it bounded into the waste area — I had to hit my best shot of the week to get a par there. 5’s a nightmare. 6 is a freak show — of course, I topped my tee shot and made an 8 or something. 7 is a fun hole, unless you don’t have an accurate approach shot. :-) 9 is a freaking nightmare for a short hitter like me. I couldn’t carry to the middle portion of the fairway, so I was trying to thread a driver into a five-yard wide little bit of fairway. I pushed it into a hazard instead, then dropped and had to lay up with a 7-iron, or try to thread a fairway wood into the little neck of an approach (it’s wicked uphill, too). I think I picked up on that hole. 10 is hard, especially if you hit a fade. 11 is a friggin roller coaster — that waste area short of the green is only about 50 feet deep. Death awaits, with nasty claws and pointy teeth. I had no idea what club to hit. :-) 12 is crazy — downhill tee shot, but you have to hit the right line and distance (ie, guess). Then an approach that needs to be perfect if you want to be able to see the flag for your third — there are two bumps short of the green that block your view! 14 is easy — just rip a 5-iron to within ten feet and make your putt for birdie (that’s what my uncle and I both did, with big shit-eating grins on our faces). 15 is a hit-and-pray downhiller — no idea where to go or what line to take or what awaited me at the green (a three- putt as it turns out). 16 is a punchline of a par four — uphill, TIGHT, and a crazy arrangement of green/bunkers. I should have played it 7-iron, wedge, wedge. 18 is a fitting end — rip your drive right down the middle, and get good elevation, or you’ll just plug it into the face of a 30-foot high wall of crap. Slice — crap. Hook — crap. There was a *lot* of waste area stuff. I mean, it was pretty much within 15 feet of the fairway and the green, everywhere. It wasn’t manicured bunker sand, either — you get what you get. I’ll say this about Tobacco Road — it’s a memorable course. I played it once, this April, and remember every darn hole and what I did on it. My memory sucks, too, so this is a remarkable thing. If you visit Pinehurst, stay an extra day and play Tobacco Road. It’s as wild a ride as you can get in golf. Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)

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Oh, come on — splurge for one round. It’s not *that* expensive ($46-$58 during the week, off season, which includes the cart). I’m not saying you should pay that every time out, but you should really try something like this once. If you fly me to North Carolina, I’ll meet you there and pay for your greens fees. :-) Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)

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says… : : Looks very entertaining from this: : : http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole1.html : : I don’t think it’s gonna make my "less than $40 with a cart" list : though. : :Oh, come on — splurge for one round. It’s not *that* expensive ($46-$58 :during the week, off season, which includes the cart). I’m not saying :you should pay that every time out, but you should really try something :like this once. : :If you fly me to North Carolina, I’ll meet you there and pay for your :greens fees. :-) : I saw the rates – great deal. The first thing I saw was $259 but that was for a package I guess. Yes, it looks like a screaming deal. jmkanes

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My toughest course was always Humanities. The instructors said I wasn’t cut out for human social contact. What a bunch of dried out windbags.

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The 5th is a 333-yd par four, and apparently they forgot to change the yardage on the web page for the 6th. It’s actually a very short hole (133/143/148 yards). Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)

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The Crosswater course in Sunriver OR. has to rank up there with 76.9 / 150 from the tips, 7683 yards. http://www.sunriverresort.com/htm/information/recgolfspa/golf/crosswa…

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: I just read a review of a golf course in Panama City Florida that said :"Lagoon : Legend has a course rating of 75.3 and a slope rating of 152 from its : championship tees, which sets it apart as the second most challenging :course in : the United States". : :The Crosswater course in Sunriver OR. has to rank up there with 76.9 / 150 :from the tips, 7683 yards. :http://www.sunriverresort.com/htm/information/recgolfspa/golf/crosswa… : : : Here it is, you have to click on the link at the bottom to see it hole by hole. Looks very nice. Is it less than $40 with cart though? :-) http://www.sunriverresort.com/htm/information/recgolfspa/ click on golf, then Crosswater then the link at the bottom to see the course "hole by hole".

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says… What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? What are the toughest public courses in the United States and in the world? Are there some real tough courses that are not designed very well?

Tobacco Road in North Carolina Slope 150+ Rating 73.2 6554 Yds from the tips.

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Tobacco Road is a monster that ate my lunch — and I can’t wait to go back!!! Kenny — Kenny Stultz – Troll and SPAM intolerant RSG Rollcall: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=stultzk "Golf is the only sport where a precise knowledge of the Rules can earn one a reputation for poor sportsmanship"

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Slope doesn’t indicate toughness. It indicates how much harder it is for bogey shooters versus par shooters. With a rating of 73.2 it is tough, but nothing special. The slope of 150 would bring it up higher for bogey shooters, but for them it is probably much harder than my home course for nowhere near the toughest I’ve played, and I’ve never even been to places like Ko’lau or The International so I don’t think it or Tobacco Road are even in the same orbit as the real toughest courses. — "I feel sorry for people who don’t drink. When they wake up in the morning, that’s as good as they’re going to feel all day" — Frank Sinatra

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What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? Well, between looking at a scorecard from Bandon Dunes and some of the articles on the Pope of Slope’s site, Bandon just misses the list of "Courses with the highest slope ratings from the middle tees" – the golds (whites) are 69.7/132 – not bad for a course that’s 5716 yards long. The Green tees (blues) play to 72.1/141, and the big bad Blacks are 74.6/145.

I’ve played more than a few courses that slope well over 140, and some of them slope pretty close to that from the middle tees. I’ll bet you have to slope 145+ to hit the list of "highest slope ratings from the middle tees". Though I guess the definition of "middle tees" is kind of flexible when you have four sets of tees. There are an awful lot of nasty little courses in Florida that seem to have water on one side and OB (houses) on the other side on just about every hole, and you hit over a little pond or stream on every other shot. Those sorts of courses don’t have a very high rating (not that hard for scratch players) but they are murder on slope ratings, I wouldn’t be surprised if some retirement home course would make a list of highest slopes from the middle tees — "I feel sorry for people who don’t drink. When they wake up in the morning, that’s as good as they’re going to feel all day" — Frank Sinatra

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