Shoulder alignment

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two comments: the bottom of the swing arc and the tangent that is parallel to or on the target line will be underneath or in front of the rotation hinge of the swing: i.e., in front of the left side of your chest – not mid-body. It will be wherever the rotation hinge is located! you are dead on re the behavior of the club closing, rising, etc. In reality, however, one can and does "manipulate" his swing arc and weight shift to accomplish on-line impact with the direction the hands move thru impact. They are not "automatically" propelled on the target line thru impact, nor to other directions before and after. Obviously their movement direction is deeply dependent on ball position as you say, but it is remarkable how golfers can and do, both deliberately and instinctively – override the shape of impact motion as they develop – and actually handle online delivery from various ball positions. Impact itself is easier with an iron more below low point than an inc or so – so I find for many, including myself, I am better of putting the ball opposite my nose/mid-body even though my low point is about 2 or 3 inches more forward than that. But your geometric model is on the money. And for those who hook their driver, that is the reason – they often use the same grip as on shots played mid-body and fail to realize that by the time of impact the face is more closed simply due to ball position as you demonstrate. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com Well, putting the bottom of the swing arc at the centre was just a simplification to make the geometry easier to explain. I can’t see how my description leads to hooking a driver (and the requirement for a weaker grip). The clubhead is travelling on a path to the left of target with the face parallel to the path. I would say this is a pull. Weakening the grip would just make you start the ball left and fade it back. Isn’t it better to get the swing path on target?

At the point where a forward ball position brings the swing arc and impact, in actuality people are still able to swing on line with the direction of their hands, but the forward position has closed the club. Or as YOU say – either – the club line of motion is also to the left. Well said – so the usual question is "why do I hook my drives?" could well be more correctly stated "why do I pullhook my drives?" The clubface closes, IMO, much faster than the body turn changes the delivery line. In practice a slightly weaker grip is indicated for good ball strikers with a forward ball position optimal – because IT does the following: raises launch angle while allowing less backspin, gives more time for development of clubhead speed, allows more time for closing of clubhead TO online and square. When Tiger was asked once what he does to really crank one, he said he moved the ball up in his stance. He said that this "permitted" him to "get behind the ball more – or actually to BE behind the ball more at impact since we don’t ‘get’ anywhere" (his own explanation). GH

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two comments: the bottom of the swing arc and the tangent that is parallel to or on the target line will be underneath or in front of the rotation hinge of the swing: i.e., in front of the left side of your chest – not mid-body. It will be wherever the rotation hinge is located! you are dead on re the behavior of the club closing, rising, etc. In reality, however, one can and does "manipulate" his swing arc and weight shift to accomplish on-line impact with the direction the hands move thru impact. They are not "automatically" propelled on the target line thru impact, nor to other directions before and after. Obviously their movement direction is deeply dependent on ball position as you say, but it is remarkable how golfers can and do, both deliberately and instinctively – override the shape of impact motion as they develop – and actually handle online delivery from various ball positions. Impact itself is easier with an iron more below low point than an inc or so – so I find for many, including myself, I am better of putting the ball opposite my nose/mid-body even though my low point is about 2 or 3 inches more forward than that. But your geometric model is on the money. And for those who hook their driver, that is the reason – they often use the same grip as on shots played mid-body and fail to realize that by the time of impact the face is more closed simply due to ball position as you demonstrate. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com

Well, putting the bottom of the swing arc at the centre was just a simplification to make the geometry easier to explain. I can’t see how my description leads to hooking a driver (and the requirement for a weaker grip). The clubhead is travelling on a path to the left of target with the face parallel to the path. I would say this is a pull. Weakening the grip would just make you start the ball left and fade it back. Isn’t it better to get the swing path on target?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1) the right foot is rolled over on the toe. 2) the right knee is kicking in. 3) the hips are turned more towards the target. 4) the right shoulder is lower. 5) the shaft is in-line with the right forearm. 6) the shaft leans forward more. 7) the hands are a few degrees higher. Anything else you need explained to you? Not at all! This reality is an important one, because it "flies in the face of conventional wisdom" and it is good that it be told by other than GH.

None of this flies in the face of conventional wisdom. It’s conventional wisdom taught by most conventional instructors. How often have you heard the opposite – i.e., that you return to setup position. And you also correctly stated that the shoulders sometimes have turned further leftward than they were at setup.

Where did I say that, what number? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

Response:

Yes it can but that depends on so many variables. Address is any position you elect to start the swing from. If your address uses a mid body position of your hands your shoulders will be square and the clubface may be slightly closed. In this case yes, there will be a change in your shoulder and clubface position from address to impact. If your address incorporates a forward press where you start the swing with your hands in the impact position than no, there will be no change in your shoulder and clubface position from address to impact. Personally, I think you may be over analyzing this a bit. Get your feet and hips square. If your hands feel comfortable mid body start from there. If a more forward hand position helps you get the feel and/or look of where you want them at impact start from there. I don’t care what you do just as long as you know why you do it. Trust me, if you get your hips squared your shoulders won’t be too far behind. David, why are closed shoulders worse than open?

Let me make this a little more clear. It is better to have your body in general aimed to the left than the right (if you’re a righty). If you’re aimed to the left it encourages you to swing inside out with a flat left wrist so you don’t hit the ball left. If you’re aimed to the right you have to come over the top and bend the left wrist to keep from hitting it right. Remember, I said it is better to -error- on the side of being open. I’m not advocating an open stance unless you want to fade the ball. The more I think about this, the worse it gets.

Stop thinking about it. I’m sure you don’t think about your right foot pivoting onto your toe in your finish but you still do it correctly. Let’s simplify the swing model a bit so I can explain my problem in understanding this. Assume that the bottom of your swing is in the centre of your stance and this is the point where your swing points at the target, i.e. the tangent to the arc of your swing. When the clubhead gets to the middle of your stance, it is on line. When it is level with your left instep it is on the way back up and is travelling back around to the left. Tee the ball up at your left instep, then start with the club in the centre. The only shot you can hit will be a pull to the left, isn’t it?

Right, but your model has one flaw, the bottom of your swing arc is not the center of your stance. It’s favorable to think it does because it keeps every thing centered and even. In reality the center of your swing arc is beneath your left shoulder. Your left arm rotates around your left shoulder not your neck and this is why the center of your swing is beneath your left shoulder. Move that center forward an I think the pieces of the puzzle will start falling in place for you. The only way to hit a straight shot with the ball forward is to rotate your swing plane around to the right.

You don’t want to do that until you become proficient with the swing. I think I’ve got an old book somewhere (either Hogan or Armour) that recommends closing your stance as the ball moves forward of the centre and opening your stance as it moves back from centre.

I heard Hogan use to do this. I guess there must be all sorts of adjustments we make in our swings to make us hit the ball cleanly.

I agree, most swings need adjustments not changes. How do those Iron Byron things work? If it is swinging a club along (around?) a fixed plane, surely there’s only one ball position that would result in a straight shot. Move the ball forward and it goes left, move it back and it goes right.

Correct ball position is engineered into it but I’m sure they can vary it for testing purposes. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ball is forward your shoulders will be open because your hands are more forward. If you error it is always better to error on the side of being open not closed. Address position is not impact position so don’t always be concerned with having square shoulders at set up. QUOTHE HE: ADDRESS POSITION IS NOT IMPACT POSITION. Pray esplaine it to us, great one. 1) the right foot is rolled over on the toe. 2) the right knee is kicking in. 3) the hips are turned more towards the target. 4) the right shoulder is lower. 5) the shaft is in-line with the right forearm. 6) the shaft leans forward more. 7) the hands are a few degrees higher. Anything else you need explained to you? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice Come on guys, there’s no need to fight over me! I don’t believe George was implying that address and impact positions are the same (I hope he wasn’t). Does the relative position of my shoulder alignment and clubface aligment change from address to impact? David, why are closed shoulders worse than open? The more I think about this, the worse it gets. Let’s simplify the swing model a bit so I can explain my problem in understanding this. Assume that the bottom of your swing is in the centre of your stance and this is the point where your swing points at the target, i.e. the tangent to the arc of your swing. When the clubhead gets to the middle of your stance, it is on line. When it is level with your left instep it is on the way back up and is travelling back around to the left. Tee the ball up at your left instep, then start with the club in the centre. The only shot you can hit will be a pull to the left, isn’t it? The only way to hit a straight shot with the ball forward is to rotate your swing plane around to the right. I think I’ve got an old book somewhere (either Hogan or Armour) that recommends closing your stance as the ball moves forward of the centre and opening your stance as it moves back from centre. I guess there must be all sorts of adjustments we make in our swings to make us hit the ball cleanly. If you took someone with a perfect swing, had them address the ball in the centre of their stance with a driver and hit a few shots, then blindfolded them and moved the ball forward and teed it up, what kind of shot would they hit? If you took the blindfold awayI assume they would make some sort of concious or subconcious adjustment to allow them to hit it straight. How do those Iron Byron things work? If it is swinging a club along (around?) a fixed plane, surely there’s only one ball position that would result in a straight shot. Move the ball forward and it goes left, move it back and it goes right. Two comments: the bottom of the swing arc and the tangent that is parallel to or on the target line will be underneath or in front of the rotation hinge of the swing: i.e., in front of the left side of your chest – not mid-body. It will be wherever the rotation hinge is located! you are dead on re the behavior of the club closing, rising, etc. In reality, however, one can and does "manipulate" his swing arc and weight shift to accomplish on-line impact with the direction the hands move thru impact. They are not "automatically" propelled on the target line thru impact, nor to other directions before and after. Obviously their movement direction is deeply dependent on ball position as you say, but it is remarkable how golfers can and do, both deliberately and instinctively – override the shape of impact motion as they develop – and actually handle online delivery from various ball positions. Impact itself is easier with an iron more below low point than an inc or so – so I find for many, including myself, I am better of putting the ball opposite my nose/mid-body even though my low point is about 2 or 3 inches more forward than that. But your geometric model is on the money. And for those who hook their driver, that is the reason – they often use the same grip as on shots played mid-body and fail to realize that by the time of impact the face is more closed simply due to ball position as you demonstrate. George, Isn’t that why some recommend using a more open stance for the shorter irons? Or a different (more neutral) grip for the short game?

It would be the opposite for the grip – a stronger grip for the shorter clubs that are played back, but only IF played back. Again, an individual golfer and his timing could change that, so it has to be determined for each golfer – I don’t believe a rule is appropriate since each golfer has his own comfort level re releasing, and those are heavier clubs…. The stance open on shorter clubs is probably because there is less need to take a long backswing, hence the open position leads to excellent "connection" of the upper arms for the downswing, making those swings crisp, consistent, and effortless that way. Wedges do not need big backswings. Sorry for the typos in my post – should read "impact itself is easier with an iron more beFORE lowpoint than an inch or so…." George

Response:

George, Isn’t that why some recommend using a more open stance for the shorter irons? Or a different (more neutral) grip for the short game?

Response:

After a few weeks of pulling the ball, I found out that my shoulder alignment has become skewed. When I set up with the ball in the middle of my stance for short irons, I am square. When I move the ball forward, I have a tendency to rotate my upper body around to get the clubhead in the right place. With open shoulders and a square clubface I end up with a wide variety of pulls, smothers and cuts. When I put myself in a correct square position, I feel really awkward – like my head is way behind the ball. What is a good setup and address routine to get everything in line?

Response:

I know what you mean. When I set up to a driver, I set up to what I feel is square (it isn’t), then as I try to keep loose and waggle a couple times, I angle my spine a bit to the right (which drops my right shoulder a bit), I drop my right hip a bit (so my spine and hips are perpendicular), and I make sure my right elbow is soft and relaxed and bring it a bit closer to my right hip. I do this as I look from the target and back to the ball a couple times. This ought to help square up your shoulders.

Response:

When you get into position and are sure you have your feet alignment on target, stand up tall then bend down at the waist. Then give the knees a bit of athletic flex. All should be square.

Response:

If the ball is forward your shoulders will be open because your hands are more forward. If you error it is always better to error on the side of being open not closed. Address position is not impact position so don’t always be concerned with having square shoulders at set up. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After a few weeks of pulling the ball, I found out that my shoulder alignment has become skewed. When I set up with the ball in the middle of my stance for short irons, I am square. When I move the ball forward, I have a tendency to rotate my upper body around to get the clubhead in the right place. With open shoulders and a square clubface I end up with a wide variety of pulls, smothers and cuts. When I put myself in a correct square position, I feel really awkward – like my head is way behind the ball. What is a good setup and address routine to get everything in line? If the ball is forward your shoulders will be open because your hands are more forward. If you error it is always better to error on the side of being open not closed. Address position is not impact position so don’t always be concerned with having square shoulders at set up. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

Hey, cool. I think that is what I do but at least now I don’t have to worry (and compensate) over it. Thanks! Puttster

Response:

QUOTHE HE: ADDRESS POSITION IS NOT IMPACT POSITION. Pray esplaine it to us, great one. GH

Response:

If the ball is forward your shoulders will be open because your hands are more forward. If you error it is always better to error on the side of being open not closed. Address position is not impact position so don’t always be concerned with having square shoulders at set up. QUOTHE HE: ADDRESS POSITION IS NOT IMPACT POSITION. Pray esplaine it to us, great one.

1) the right foot is rolled over on the toe. 2) the right knee is kicking in. 3) the hips are turned more towards the target. 4) the right shoulder is lower. 5) the shaft is in-line with the right forearm. 6) the shaft leans forward more. 7) the hands are a few degrees higher. Anything else you need explained to you? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

Response:

Not at all! This reality is an important one, because it "flies in the face of conventional wisdom" and it is good that it be told by other than GH. Well said, and absolutely on the money. If I had made the statement it would have been ridiculed here. I provoked the answer from you on purpose – precisely to have the points made that you make so well. How often have you heard the opposite – i.e., that you return to setup position. And you also correctly stated that the shoulders sometimes have turned further leftward than they were at setup. So I thought it appropriate that the thought be fleshed out as you have done here! George

Response:

It’s also fleshed out in SLAP…along with the fact that the right shoulder will be lower and slighty ahead of the left one at address…

Response:

Two comments: the bottom of the swing arc and the tangent that is parallel to or on the target line will be underneath or in front of the rotation hinge of the swing: i.e., in front of the left side of your chest – not mid-body. It will be wherever the rotation hinge is located! you are dead on re the behavior of the club closing, rising, etc. In reality, however, one can and does "manipulate" his swing arc and weight shift to accomplish on-line impact with the direction the hands move thru impact. They are not "automatically" propelled on the target line thru impact, nor to other directions before and after. Obviously their movement direction is deeply dependent on ball position as you say, but it is remarkable how golfers can and do, both deliberately and instinctively – override the shape of impact motion as they develop – and actually handle online delivery from various ball positions. Impact itself is easier with an iron more below low point than an inc or so – so I find for many, including myself, I am better of putting the ball opposite my nose/mid-body even though my low point is about 2 or 3 inches more forward than that. But your geometric model is on the money. And for those who hook their driver, that is the reason – they often use the same grip as on shots played mid-body and fail to realize that by the time of impact the face is more closed simply due to ball position as you demonstrate. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ball is forward your shoulders will be open because your hands are more forward. If you error it is always better to error on the side of being open not closed. Address position is not impact position so don’t always be concerned with having square shoulders at set up. QUOTHE HE: ADDRESS POSITION IS NOT IMPACT POSITION. Pray esplaine it to us, great one. 1) the right foot is rolled over on the toe. 2) the right knee is kicking in. 3) the hips are turned more towards the target. 4) the right shoulder is lower. 5) the shaft is in-line with the right forearm. 6) the shaft leans forward more. 7) the hands are a few degrees higher. Anything else you need explained to you? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor Of Consistent & Spam Free Golf Advice

Come on guys, there’s no need to fight over me! I don’t believe George was implying that address and impact positions are the same (I hope he wasn’t). Does the relative position of my shoulder alignment and clubface aligment change from address to impact? David, why are closed shoulders worse than open? The more I think about this, the worse it gets. Let’s simplify the swing model a bit so I can explain my problem in understanding this. Assume that the bottom of your swing is in the centre of your stance and this is the point where your swing points at the target, i.e. the tangent to the arc of your swing. When the clubhead gets to the middle of your stance, it is on line. When it is level with your left instep it is on the way back up and is travelling back around to the left. Tee the ball up at your left instep, then start with the club in the centre. The only shot you can hit will be a pull to the left, isn’t it? The only way to hit a straight shot with the ball forward is to rotate your swing plane around to the right. I think I’ve got an old book somewhere (either Hogan or Armour) that recommends closing your stance as the ball moves forward of the centre and opening your stance as it moves back from centre. I guess there must be all sorts of adjustments we make in our swings to make us hit the ball cleanly. If you took someone with a perfect swing, had them address the ball in the centre of their stance with a driver and hit a few shots, then blindfolded them and moved the ball forward and teed it up, what kind of shot would they hit? If you took the blindfold awayI assume they would make some sort of concious or subconcious adjustment to allow them to hit it straight. How do those Iron Byron things work? If it is swinging a club along (around?) a fixed plane, surely there’s only one ball position that would result in a straight shot. Move the ball forward and it goes left, move it back and it goes right.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ever since I started playing this infernal game, I have had to fight a tendency to open my shoulders at address, especially with the shorter clubs. I’ve started doing it again, and my last two rounds have been ruined as a result. Does anyone have any good drills/thoughts for getting my shoulders square to the target line. If anyone has any drills for this, I’d be interested, too. It’s always been my contention that a player’s failure to align themselves square to the target (which actually means square to a line PARALLEL LEFT TO THE TARGET LINE) is a function of getting a bit lacadasical with their set-up. Having said that, I have a tendency to line up closed to the target, causing me to come over the top and pull the ball to the target. Not the kind of move you want to groove, but I’ve got it down to a science. Randy

I try to make it to the driving range at least three days per week. On the first and last days, I always place my putter on the mat or tee box to indicate a proper alignment for feet, hips and shoulders. Having the putter right there makes lining up very visual, and much easier. I’m hoping my oversize body starts remembering how to do it on its own shortly! Larry —

Response:

I don’t know of any drills, but you might want to look at how you approach the ball and grip the club. After lining up from behind the ball, set up with feet/shoulders/hips parallel & club face perpendicular to the target line while gripping the club with the left hand only. Finally place your right hand on the club approaching it from "underneath" – this will allow you to grip it with your right hand below the left by tilting the right shoulder below the left, as opposed to approaching the grip with the right hand from "around" which puts the left shoulder behind the right. Good luck, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ever since I started playing this infernal game, I have had to fight a tendency to open my shoulders at address, especially with the shorter clubs. I’ve started doing it again, and my last two rounds have been ruined as a result. Does anyone have any good drills/thoughts for getting my shoulders square to the target line. Muchas gracias in advance, Remsleep

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ever since I started playing this infernal game, I have had to fight a tendency to open my shoulders at address, especially with the shorter clubs. I’ve started doing it again, and my last two rounds have been ruined as a result. Does anyone have any good drills/thoughts for getting my shoulders square to the target line. Muchas gracias in advance, Remsleep You

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