Question:
Sounds great, just let me know when the date firms up so I can take the day off work. By the way, finally got my Integra 400 built last night. It’s sitting next to me in my office and I am leaving early today to try it out 
. This is the first driver I’ve assembled, so hopefully, it won’t snap in two. Mark
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Mark. I knew I’d read that somewhere, but couldn’t figure out where. Nice to have the reference. BTW: After RSG-Atlanta, I *am* going to be in Orlando; we’re firming up travel plans right now, I’ll let you and Golfin’ Don know. But right now, it looks like I’ll be there from the 16th to the 20th. Mini-RSG-Orlando? Mike Mike, From a USGA memo "The Committee has therefore concluded that the process of orienting a shaft with the intent of causing it to perform as if it were symmetrical would not be inconsistent with Rule 4-1b. " This is from http://www.pureshaft.com/usga/memo1999.html. This is from the website of the company you mentioned whose technology is licensed to Golfsmith. My interpretation is that you can spine a club if you are not trying to affect the ball flight, e.g. trying to minimize a slice or hook. Mark I spoke to my friend, who owns a golf shop and custom-builds clubs for his customers, about "spines". He knew exactly what I was talking about and described what a spine was, matching just what Mike D. has said. But then he told me that to identify the spine and align it in some particular way isn’t legal — ie, makes the club non-conforming. It used to be that way, but it is no longer the case. It’s legal to spine clubs. This seems odd — you could build ten clubs at random, then pick the one you like best (presumably, the one that was properly aligned) and toss the rest. Same result, 10x cost. :-) He also mentioned that modern technology in shafts leave very little difference between aligned and un-aligned spines. Depends on the shafts. The test clubs I made used shafts with very noticeable spines; others like the FGS from Diamondtour and the Apache PM40+ have much less noticeable spines. I have a steel shaft with a big ol’ spine in it. True Temper Dynalite. I don’t have any reason to suspect that he’s trying to talk me into buying something more expensive — he hasn’t in the past and has an awfully good reputation about being a straight-shooter. Is there any truth to this? If I align the spines on my clubs, should I just go ahead and get the ERC II while I’m at it? :-) There’s nothing wrong with aligning spines. As you indicate above, you could just build 10 of them, going through a process of elimination to find the best one. Supposedly Jack Nicklaus used to do that, he’d throw 100 drivers on the ground and start hitting them until he found the best one. The guy who patented the Golfsmith technique supposedly convinced the USGA to allow spining, since shafts cannot be made perfectly. But either way, it’s ok to do it. Mike Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2001 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm — Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2001 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
Thanks, Mark. I knew I’d read that somewhere, but couldn’t figure out where. Nice to have the reference. BTW: After RSG-Atlanta, I *am* going to be in Orlando; we’re firming up travel plans right now, I’ll let you and Golfin’ Don know. But right now, it looks like I’ll be there from the 16th to the 20th. Mini-RSG-Orlando? Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, From a USGA memo "The Committee has therefore concluded that the process of orienting a shaft with the intent of causing it to perform as if it were symmetrical would not be inconsistent with Rule 4-1b. " This is from http://www.pureshaft.com/usga/memo1999.html. This is from the website of the company you mentioned whose technology is licensed to Golfsmith. My interpretation is that you can spine a club if you are not trying to affect the ball flight, e.g. trying to minimize a slice or hook. Mark I spoke to my friend, who owns a golf shop and custom-builds clubs for his customers, about "spines". He knew exactly what I was talking about and described what a spine was, matching just what Mike D. has said. But then he told me that to identify the spine and align it in some particular way isn’t legal — ie, makes the club non-conforming. It used to be that way, but it is no longer the case. It’s legal to spine clubs. This seems odd — you could build ten clubs at random, then pick the one you like best (presumably, the one that was properly aligned) and toss the rest. Same result, 10x cost. :-) He also mentioned that modern technology in shafts leave very little difference between aligned and un-aligned spines. Depends on the shafts. The test clubs I made used shafts with very noticeable spines; others like the FGS from Diamondtour and the Apache PM40+ have much less noticeable spines. I have a steel shaft with a big ol’ spine in it. True Temper Dynalite. I don’t have any reason to suspect that he’s trying to talk me into buying something more expensive — he hasn’t in the past and has an awfully good reputation about being a straight-shooter. Is there any truth to this? If I align the spines on my clubs, should I just go ahead and get the ERC II while I’m at it? :-) There’s nothing wrong with aligning spines. As you indicate above, you could just build 10 of them, going through a process of elimination to find the best one. Supposedly Jack Nicklaus used to do that, he’d throw 100 drivers on the ground and start hitting them until he found the best one. The guy who patented the Golfsmith technique supposedly convinced the USGA to allow spining, since shafts cannot be made perfectly. But either way, it’s ok to do it. Mike Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2001 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
– Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2001 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
Mike, From a USGA memo "The Committee has therefore concluded that the process of orienting a shaft with the intent of causing it to perform as if it were symmetrical would not be inconsistent with Rule 4-1b. " This is from http://www.pureshaft.com/usga/memo1999.html. This is from the website of the company you mentioned whose technology is licensed to Golfsmith. My interpretation is that you can spine a club if you are not trying to affect the ball flight, e.g. trying to minimize a slice or hook. Mark
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I spoke to my friend, who owns a golf shop and custom-builds clubs for his customers, about "spines". He knew exactly what I was talking about and described what a spine was, matching just what Mike D. has said. But then he told me that to identify the spine and align it in some particular way isn’t legal — ie, makes the club non-conforming. It used to be that way, but it is no longer the case. It’s legal to spine clubs. This seems odd — you could build ten clubs at random, then pick the one you like best (presumably, the one that was properly aligned) and toss the rest. Same result, 10x cost. :-) He also mentioned that modern technology in shafts leave very little difference between aligned and un-aligned spines. Depends on the shafts. The test clubs I made used shafts with very noticeable spines; others like the FGS from Diamondtour and the Apache PM40+ have much less noticeable spines. I have a steel shaft with a big ol’ spine in it. True Temper Dynalite. I don’t have any reason to suspect that he’s trying to talk me into buying something more expensive — he hasn’t in the past and has an awfully good reputation about being a straight-shooter. Is there any truth to this? If I align the spines on my clubs, should I just go ahead and get the ERC II while I’m at it? :-) There’s nothing wrong with aligning spines. As you indicate above, you could just build 10 of them, going through a process of elimination to find the best one. Supposedly Jack Nicklaus used to do that, he’d throw 100 drivers on the ground and start hitting them until he found the best one. The guy who patented the Golfsmith technique supposedly convinced the USGA to allow spining, since shafts cannot be made perfectly. But either way, it’s ok to do it. Mike Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2001 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
<long discussion of "spine" deleted Thanks Mike!! I asked them to "spine align" the shaft, and I’ll trust that they know what they’re doing. He actually told me it won’t make much difference with the UST 65, but for $5 I figured WTH. : Also, I’m about to "get sucked into the darkside" and have them build me : a 400cc monster. Thoughts on "upgrading" to the UST 65 shaft versus the : If they are building you the club you are not being sucked into the : darkside. You have to build your own for that to happen. :) I’ve built clubs before. A complete set of irons, a couple of drivers, a few 3 woods and a few 5 woods. I sold the irons, but my garage has plenty of homebuilt clubs laying around. I’ve got enough hobbies now, so for $5 I’m having them build it. It’s coming without a grip though, since I’ve got a box of grips and it seemed like a waste to buy another. The "darkside" refers to the fact that I’m going to show up on the first tee with a bright gold/purple stick that has a small house attached to the end. Come to think of it, I’ll probably wait until the 3rd or 4th tee to pull the cover off the monster. : If you change only the shaft, using a 70-gram shaft instead of 60 grams, : it changes the swingweight to D3. The UST 65 at 45" should end up D1-D3, which will be fine. If I cut it down to 44-44.5", I may add a little lead tape to increase the feel. We’ll see… Richard Stern http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/sternr.htm
Response:
(snip) On a graphite shaft, you place the major spine at 12:00, and then tweak the shaft so the FLO is in the same plane as the direction of swing (snip)
By direction of swing, do you refer to the "swing plane" or the direction the club is moving when the head makes contact with the ball. When I start my downswing the back of my left hand is facing away from my body and the butt of the club moves down inside my swing plane. As I reach impact, the back of my hand rotates to square the club face to the ball. So, using the heel of the club as the 6 o’clock position and the toe as the 12 o’clock position, the club would start down and load with the 6 o’clock position leading. And, then rotate to impact with the 9 o’clock positon leading. So, is the FLO more important during when the club head is loading or at impact when the club is releasing?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I spoke to my friend, who owns a golf shop and custom-builds clubs for his customers, about "spines". He knew exactly what I was talking about and described what a spine was, matching just what Mike D. has said. But then he told me that to identify the spine and align it in some particular way isn’t legal — ie, makes the club non-conforming. It used to be that way, but it is no longer the case. It’s legal to spine clubs. This seems odd — you could build ten clubs at random, then pick the one you like best (presumably, the one that was properly aligned) and toss the rest. Same result, 10x cost. :-) He also mentioned that modern technology in shafts leave very little difference between aligned and un-aligned spines. Depends on the shafts. The test clubs I made used shafts with very noticeable spines; others like the FGS from Diamondtour and the Apache PM40+ have much less noticeable spines. I have a steel shaft with a big ol’ spine in it. True Temper Dynalite. I don’t have any reason to suspect that he’s trying to talk me into buying something more expensive — he hasn’t in the past and has an awfully good reputation about being a straight-shooter. Is there any truth to this? If I align the spines on my clubs, should I just go ahead and get the ERC II while I’m at it? :-) There’s nothing wrong with aligning spines. As you indicate above, you could just build 10 of them, going through a process of elimination to find the best one. Supposedly Jack Nicklaus used to do that, he’d throw 100 drivers on the ground and start hitting them until he found the best one. The guy who patented the Golfsmith technique supposedly convinced the USGA to allow spining, since shafts cannot be made perfectly. But either way, it’s ok to do it.
Thanks for your response, Mike. I’ll let my friend know! Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
Response:
The short answer, Tom, is that you want the club FLO’d as you indicate, when the club is passing through the hitting zone. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snip) On a graphite shaft, you place the major spine at 12:00, and then tweak the shaft so the FLO is in the same plane as the direction of swing (snip) By direction of swing, do you refer to the "swing plane" or the direction the club is moving when the head makes contact with the ball. When I start my downswing the back of my left hand is facing away from my body and the butt of the club moves down inside my swing plane. As I reach impact, the back of my hand rotates to square the club face to the ball. So, using the heel of the club as the 6 o’clock position and the toe as the 12 o’clock position, the club would start down and load with the 6 o’clock position leading. And, then rotate to impact with the 9 o’clock positon leading. So, is the FLO more important during when the club head is loading or at impact when the club is releasing?
– Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2001 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I had the chance this week to hit Mike Dalecki’s three componate golf : clubs. One is properly spine aligned and the other two are not aligned : on the graphite spine. Big question for Mike: Which way do you align the spine ? I called Diamond Tour and asked them about their spine alignment service. They said they align the spine towards the target on a driver. Is that what you do? I thought you said something about 12 o’clock, which would be towards to toe of the club, quite different. Thoughts/comments?
Rule Number One: It’s different for Graphite and Steel! Rule Number Two: "Spine" is a bad name, but it’s what everyone uses for lack of a better term. It’s the orientation of a shaft where it’s harder to bend it the same amount as in another orientation. So when we say "spine" we mean a point in the 360-degrees of orientation of the shaft where it’s harder to bend it than positions to the right and left of that point. I’ve mosly only played around with Graphite shafts and spines; Graphite is by the nature of its manufacture more susceptible to these variations, esp. if it’s sheet-wrapped graphite rather than filament-wound. Filament wound is actually not all that bad, and some really expensive graphite shafts have very little noticeable spininess. Graphite shafts typically have two spines (places of maximum bending resistance). Usually also they are about 180 degrees apart. Often one is more noticeable than the other, and they’ll be labelled major and minor, or S1 and S2. Steel shafts typically have only one spine. It is this difference that causes steel shafts to be oriented differently in the clubhead than graphite shafts (at least as I understand and practice it). On a graphite shaft, you place the major spine at 12:00, and then tweak the shaft so the FLO is in the same plane as the direction of swing (i.e., 3:00). On the shafts I’ve tried it on, the FLO is close to the 3:00 plane, but the rule is to get it right on. Further, placing the major spine at 12:00 is supposed to inhibit toe droop during the swing; placing it at 6:00 is supposed to promote toe droop during the swing. But the major reason for 12:00 is to get what’s known as the Neutral Bending Point (NBP) in the plane of the swing. When checking a graphite shaft in a spine finder, the shaft when being twirled in the fingers always wants to settle in the NBP. It’s where the shaft "wants to go" when under pressure. So the idea is to orient the shaft with NBP in the swing plane, so if the shaft is off plane and is oscillating back, where it will want to go is back to neutral. NBP is where the shaft wants to be under bending stress. Here’s what I know about steel shafts (meaning: what I’ve read and the little playing around I’ve done). The idea is to place the spine (remember, only one of them in a steel shaft) at either 3:00 or 9:00. The 9:00 position is supposed to offer slightly more accuracy, while the 3:00 position slightly more distance. I have a loose TT dynalite shaft and I checked it for spine: It has only the one, and it’s a pretty significant spine. So much so that I was actually quite surprised by it. I’ve got some steel shafts coming and I’m going to play with them to see what I can find out. They’re TT Dynamic Gold shafts, regular flex as opposed to my normal stiff flex, supposed to be higher quality than normal steel shafts. I’ll see how much difference there is between them. I’m going to make a rescue club w/ one of them, and reshaft one of my MP14s with the other. Before I pull the shaft from the MP14 I’ll mark it; then I’ll spine it and see how far off it was. I’ll also spine the other shaft, and see what difference it makes. One comment about FLO: Some people (like me) check for FLO without a clubhead on. Others figure a way to fix the clubhead to the shaft (toothpicks or some other shim) and check it with the clubhead on the shaft. I can understand that it makes more sense to tweak FLO with the clubhead on the shaft, but it’s harder to do, as you not only have to turn the shaft each time you try another orientation, but also re-orient the head. I may try that some more just for fun, using thin paper to shim the shaft to at least friction-tight. But I’ve had good luck spining with just the shaft and no clubhead, so I don’t know how big a deal that should make. Also, I’m about to "get sucked into the darkside" and have them build me a 400cc monster. Thoughts on "upgrading" to the UST 65 shaft versus the shaft they recommend. If I don’t have them adjust the swingweight, but just build it to 45", what will the swingweight be? If I decide to cut it down to 44.5 or even 44", can I just add some lead tape to bring the swingweight back up?
If they are building you the club you are not being sucked into the darkside. You have to build your own for that to happen. :) If you change either the weight of the shaft or the length of the club you’ll change the swingweight. How much depends on how much. Using John Baima’s Java swingweight calculator, with a finished club length of 45 inches, a head weight of 199, uncut shaft weight of 60g, a grip weight of 50g, and uncut shaft length of 46, you get a swingweight of D2. If you change only the shaft, using a 70-gram shaft instead of 60 grams, it changes the swingweight to D3. If you go back to the 60-gram shaft, and change the club length from 45 to 44, the calculated swingweight drops to C7. Using a proforce golf 65 at 71 grams, 45 inch club length, you end up with a forecase swingweight of D3. If you want to reduce the swingweight, you can cut down the length a bit. If you want to increase it, lead tape is the way to go. Mike PS: Here’s the URL for John Baima’s swingweight calculator, if you want to play w/ those numbers yourself: http://www.silvershot.com/swingweightcalc.htm Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2001 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had the chance this week to hit Mike Dalecki’s three componate golf clubs. One is properly spine aligned and the other two are not aligned on the graphite spine. It was simple to identify which was the properly aligned club. I hit these on two separate occasions and also had a mini-tour player from our club hit them as a double-check to my results. ** The properly aligned club hit the ball solid, it flew straight, and it felt and sounded like a quality golf club. ** The improperly aligned clubs felt mushy at impact. Like hitting a marshmallow. The ball flight was short and the sound at impact was a dead ‘thud’. I continued to hit these clubs trying to get a good response from them…but even on straight pure contact, the ball flew like a wounded bird and sounded dead. I’m a believer. I do not play with componate clubs. But if I did, and if the clubs were of older technology, I’d have them checked. As technology evolves maybe this spine-alignment thing may not be so dramatic–or on the other hand maybe manufacturers will use it to their advantage somehow.
I spoke to my friend, who owns a golf shop and custom-builds clubs for his customers, about "spines". He knew exactly what I was talking about and described what a spine was, matching just what Mike D. has said. But then he told me that to identify the spine and align it in some particular way isn’t legal — ie, makes the club non-conforming. This seems odd — you could build ten clubs at random, then pick the one you like best (presumably, the one that was properly aligned) and toss the rest. Same result, 10x cost. :-) He also mentioned that modern technology in shafts leave very little difference between aligned and un-aligned spines. I don’t have any reason to suspect that he’s trying to talk me into buying something more expensive — he hasn’t in the past and has an awfully good reputation about being a straight-shooter. Is there any truth to this? If I align the spines on my clubs, should I just go ahead and get the ERC II while I’m at it? :-) Doug — ___, IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont o ASICs Product Development Engineering | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | . Doug’s Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~masseyd (|)
Response:
I spoke to my friend, who owns a golf shop and custom-builds clubs for his customers, about "spines". He knew exactly what I was talking about and described what a spine was, matching just what Mike D. has said. But then he told me that to identify the spine and align it in some particular way isn’t legal — ie, makes the club non-conforming.
It used to be that way, but it is no longer the case. It’s legal to spine clubs. This seems odd — you could build ten clubs at random, then pick the one you like best (presumably, the one that was properly aligned) and toss the rest. Same result, 10x cost. :-) He also mentioned that modern technology in shafts leave very little difference between aligned and un-aligned spines.
Depends on the shafts. The test clubs I made used shafts with very noticeable spines; others like the FGS from Diamondtour and the Apache PM40+ have much less noticeable spines. I have a steel shaft with a big ol’ spine in it. True Temper Dynalite. I don’t have any reason to suspect that he’s trying to talk me into buying something more expensive — he hasn’t in the past and has an awfully good reputation about being a straight-shooter. Is there any truth to this? If I align the spines on my clubs, should I just go ahead and get the ERC II while I’m at it? :-)
There’s nothing wrong with aligning spines. As you indicate above, you could just build 10 of them, going through a process of elimination to find the best one. Supposedly Jack Nicklaus used to do that, he’d throw 100 drivers on the ground and start hitting them until he found the best one. The guy who patented the Golfsmith technique supposedly convinced the USGA to allow spining, since shafts cannot be made perfectly. But either way, it’s ok to do it. Mike Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2001 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean. Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
I had the chance this week to hit Mike Dalecki’s three componate golf clubs. One is properly spine aligned and the other two are not aligned on the graphite spine. It was simple to identify which was the properly aligned club. I hit these on two separate occasions and also had a mini-tour player from our club hit them as a double-check to my results. ** The properly aligned club hit the ball solid, it flew straight, and it felt and sounded like a quality golf club. ** The improperly aligned clubs felt mushy at impact. Like hitting a marshmallow. The ball flight was short and the sound at impact was a dead ‘thud’. I continued to hit these clubs trying to get a good response from them…but even on straight pure contact, the ball flew like a wounded bird and sounded dead. I’m a believer. I do not play with componate clubs. But if I did, and if the clubs were of older technology, I’d have them checked. As technology evolves maybe this spine-alignment thing may not be so dramatic–or on the other hand maybe manufacturers will use it to their advantage somehow. Brad
Response:
: I had the chance this week to hit Mike Dalecki’s three componate golf : clubs. One is properly spine aligned and the other two are not aligned : on the graphite spine. Big question for Mike: Which way do you align the spine ? I called Diamond Tour and asked them about their spine alignment service. They said they align the spine towards the target on a driver. Is that what you do? I thought you said something about 12 o’clock, which would be towards to toe of the club, quite different. Thoughts/comments? Also, I’m about to "get sucked into the darkside" and have them build me a 400cc monster. Thoughts on "upgrading" to the UST 65 shaft versus the shaft they recommend. If I don’t have them adjust the swingweight, but just build it to 45", what will the swingweight be? If I decide to cut it down to 44.5 or even 44", can I just add some lead tape to bring the swingweight back up? Richard Stern http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/sternr.htm