Question:
On 3/4/00 Wilson and MacGregor both had demos at Palo Alto Muni. I hit clubs from both manufacturers and I thought I would share my impressions. For comparison, my current irons are Golfsmith Tour Cavity with Rifle Light 6.0 shafts swingweighted at D4. The first club I tried was a Wilson Fat Shaft 4 iron with a Wilson labeled True Temper Dynamic Gold R300 shaft and I hit about 12 balls. The 4 iron was the only steel shafted left handed club Wilson brought. The club felt soft and the ball flight was VERY high, notably higher than my current 6 iron. The flight was also very straight, but the length was not impressive. I also found it difficult to work the ball left or right with this club. I could do it, but the set-ups that resulted in a fade or draw with the Fat Shaft would have been massive hooks and slices with my irons. The feel was somewhat dead and even shots deliberately off center didn’t generate much feedback. All in all, IMO these might be acceptable game improvement clubs, but I doubt that anyone who wants to work the ball or who values feel would ever be satisfied with them. On the upside, they are definitely straight. I am afraid I forgot to ask about the price. The 2nd club was the MacGregor Tourney MT Tungsten 27* 5 iron with a TT DG S300 shaft and I hit about 15 shots with it. It is MacGregor’s entry level club and is a midsize cast cavity back that looks like a game improvement club but in reality is a players club. I was able to work the ball very effectively with this club. It did feel just a little soft, but I think that is because the S300 shaft is closer to a 5.7 slope than the 6.0 I use. The ball trajectory was comparable to my 28* 5 iron and the flight was slightly longer, probably due to the slightly stronger loft and more flexible shaft. This club felt quite a lot like my Tour Cavities and If I were in the market for an OEM replacement set, these would definitely be worth some serious consideration. The price was US$499 for steel shafts, custom fitting included. The last club I demoed was the MacGregor Tourney PMB Tour 29* 5 iron, again with an S300 shaft and is MacGregor’s top of the line. I hit at least 30 balls with this club. This is a true forged blade and it is the first one I have ever hit (others were cast blades or forged CB’s). The head is small, compact and looks *very* good. People, I am a convert, I have never felt such a sweet sensation from a golf shot, ever. There was no question about whether or not I had hit the sweetspot. You could hear it and I could feel it beyond any shadow of a doubt. When I missed the sweetspot it was equally obvious. But what was so amazing was that while I definitely knew I had missed, it didn’t ‘bite’ me or shock my hands. It certainly didn’t feel as good as a sweet shot, but it wasn’t painful, even when I deliberately hit it thin. Another surprise was that the missed shots were not as bad as I had expected them to be. Yes, they were definitely shorter and they were unquestionably off-line, but not remarkably more so than with the MT club or my own 5 iron. When I did hit it sweet with my normal set-up the shot was long and had a slight draw. I was carrying to a measured flag 185 yards from the stall I was hitting from. This is about 10 yards longer than my own 5 iron, which is 28*. I was also easily able to work the ball both ways. It was somewhat difficult to control in that the draws readily became hooks and the fades slices, but I attribute this to lack of experience with the club on my part rather than a problem with the club itself. My control definitely improved the more I hit it. Folks, if I had US$1000 in my pocket or in the bank, I would have purchased a set on the spot, I was that impressed. I cannot speak to other forged blades because nobody else makes them for left handers. But if you are thinking about blades and are willing to spend US$1000, the MacGregor Tourney PMB Tour irons are definitely worth a look. Unfortunately, if you are left handed, these are the only option you have. But they cost the same lefty and righty, so if you like them then at least you know you aren’t being slammed for being left handed. Custom fitting is included and I was told any shaft can be installed at material cost. If you want a recommendation for an OEM players club, take a look at the MT’s. If you are in the market for forged blades, check out the PMB Tours. I was definitely impressed with both. If you are a high handicapper who doesn’t have a lot of time to practice then the Wilson Fat Shafts might be worth consideration. If you do have time to practice or are going to take lessons then I think something like the Tommy Armour 845 Oversized would be a better investment. There were a couple of other things I noticed that made an impression on me. The Wilson rep was a kid who had to keep referring to a notebook to answer my questions and who definitely was not very knowledgeable about the product he was selling and I was *not* impressed. I can only hope that the regular rep was unable to attend the demo for some reason and this kid was just filling in for him. But no matter what the reason, Wilson probably cost themselves business that day rather than gaining any. OTOH the MacGregor rep was just the opposite. He was very knowledgeable about his products and about club design and assembly in general. Nor did he try to hit me with the big sell, he knew he had good products and he let those products sell themselves. All in all, I was very impressed not only with the MacGregor clubs, but also with MacGregor the company and the MacGregor rep. FWIW, I got the distinct impression that MacGregor is not very interested in the entry level, high handicapper market, but they do a damn fine job of catering to the mid and low handicap market. The opinions above are my own. I am not affiliated with any manufacturer or supplier. — Dan Driscoll Current USGA Handicap Index – 16.1 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Keep Usenet Clean, Trash a Spammer!
Response:
Hi Daniel, Truly thanks for taking the time to inform us, especially those of us who are lefthanded, about your demo experience with those clubs. Being a lefty who likes playing with forged blades, your input was much needed since I don’t get too many chances to try them out here. Being up in Edmonton, AB., though the big club brand names do put on demo days, I doubt if "boutique" companies that manufacture true forged lefthanded blades, such as MacGregor, even know where we are on the map. Steve
Response:
Steve, No problem, I enjoy going to demos and pissing off the reps by asking a bunch of questions and testing them and their equipment. 
But it is especially enjoyable when I find a club I really like, even though I can’t afford it. I have to say, I was mightly impressed MacGregor, but I don’t really consider them a "boutique" company. They have been around for a long time and at one time I think they were the #1 equipment company in the business. But you are right that they are no longer one of the big names like Callaway or Taylor Made or even Tommy Armour. You mentioned that you like playing forged blades. What clubs are you playing now and how do you like them? Hi Daniel, Truly thanks for taking the time to inform us, especially those of us who are lefthanded, about your demo experience with those clubs. Being a lefty who likes playing with forged blades, your input was much needed since I don’t get too many chances to try them out here. Being up in Edmonton, AB., though the big club brand names do put on demo days, I doubt if "boutique" companies that manufacture true forged lefthanded blades, such as MacGregor, even know where we are on the map. Steve
– Dan Driscoll Current USGA Handicap Index – 16.1 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Keep Usenet Clean, Trash a Spammer!
Response:
Folks, if I had US$1000 in my pocket or in the bank, I would have purchased a set on the spot, I was that impressed. I cannot speak to other forged blades because nobody else makes them for left handers. But if you are thinking about blades and are willing to spend US$1000, the MacGregor Tourney PMB Tour irons are definitely worth a look. Unfortunately,
The problem I have with forged blades, as much as I’d like to own a shiny new set, is, well, there are two problems. (1) I really don’t want a set of clubs that I’d feel bad beating the shit out of, because that’s what you have to do if you play the ball down in the desert, even if you’re a single digit handicap. (2) No matter what kind of abuse you give your carbon steel clubs, you need to have them checked for loft and lie every 4-6 months if you play frequently, and frankly that’s just outrageously inconvenient for me. Nevertheless I applaud Macgregor for going to the trouble to produce this product for lefties. If I lived in a city where there weren’t so many rocks on the golf course, I’d probably buy a set and just learn to suffer through the hassle of appointments with the loft and lie machine. -joseph
Response:
The problem I have with forged blades, as much as I’d like to own a shiny new set, is, well, there are two problems. (1) I really don’t want a set of clubs that I’d feel bad beating the shit out of, because that’s what you have to do if you play the ball down in the desert, even if you’re a single digit handicap. (2) No matter what kind of abuse you give your carbon steel clubs, you need to have them checked for loft and lie every 4-6 months if you play frequently, and frankly that’s just outrageously inconvenient for me. Nevertheless I applaud Macgregor for going to the trouble to produce this product for lefties. If I lived in a city where there weren’t so many rocks on the golf course, I’d probably buy a set and just learn to suffer through the hassle of appointments with the loft and lie machine.
i can sympathise with the first sentiment. i’m using a set of forged carbon steel maxfli blades and i cringe everytime i have to play out of some crappy stony lie with them. but as for the loft and lie check. i’ve owned quite a few sets of blades over the years and even getting them checked annually i’ve not noticed them to go out of whack much if at all. the current set i just checked afer 6 months of abuse which includes usually 2 full rounds a week (minimum) and at the moment i’m beating about 150 or so full swings a day on the practice fairway and all the clubs speced out to what they were set at 6 months ago. with the exception of the wedge and the sandwedge which were 1 and 1.5* stronger respectively. brett
Response:
I just happen to have a brand spakin’ new set of the McGregor MT’s (not the Tungstens) and have not even taken them out of the plastic wrappers yet. I have been waiting for my playing partner (who said he wants to play more of a blade) to buy them from me. By the sounds of it, I should keep them for myself. I may just have to give my X-12’s a rest and take these out to the course. I liked the McGregors from the get go because of their more traditional look. Not big and bulky like my Callaways. Troy The sun ain’t yellow…is chicken!! -Bob Dylan
Response:
Very interesting and well told. Thank you for sharing. — Ciao. Marcello RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/franchim.htm
On 3/4/00 Wilson and MacGregor both had demos at Palo Alto Muni.
[snip]
Response:
Steve, No problem, I enjoy going to demos and pissing off the reps by asking a bunch of questions and testing them and their equipment. But it is especially enjoyable when I find a club I really like, even though I can’t afford it. I have to say, I was mightly impressed MacGregor, but I don’t really consider them a "boutique" company. They have been around for a long time and at one time I think they were the #1 equipment company in the business. But you are right that they are no longer one of the big names like Callaway or Taylor Made or even Tommy Armour. You mentioned that you like playing forged blades. What clubs are you playing now and how do you like them?
Well, these are just generic, "no name", forged blades I found at a shop I drop by once in a while in town. The name’s Pure, but it might as well, be Acme, but it does have TT shafts with Lambkin grips. When I first saw them, they were listed at $399CDN for the 3-PW set, but by the time I "grew" out of my starter set, they were reduced down to $129 and I haggled it down to $115. They have a nice weight to them which allows me to feel the head nicely throughout my swing. Steve
Response:
Daniel, Working the ball at will both left and right, deliberately hitting the ball off centre, carrying a 5 iron 185 yards, and playing off 16! Your putting must be really crap! Like most of your posts by the way! Before you buy.
Response:
Okay redr, lets take these one at a time. I understand it will take a while for all of this to sink in, but read through it several times and then sleep on it. Hopefully, you will eventually begin to understand. It isn’t that hard to hit fades and draws, it is just difficult to do consistently. If I miss it one the range I just pull another ball out of the bucket and try again, no big deal. If you think about it real hard I am sure you will begin to understand that. Not being able to hit fades and draws *consistently* is one of the several reasons I am a mid handicapper and not a low handicapper. What’s so hard about deliberately hitting off the toe or heel? When I demo clubs I want to see what different kinds of missed shots look like in addition to seeing what good shots look like. Given the general tenor of your post, I am not surprised that you don’t understand this, so let’s go on to your next question. On that particular day my 5 iron was carrying about 175 yards, the MacGregor 5 iron about 185, to measured flags. Now try to understand this: how far the ball carried wasn’t the point; the point was that the MacGregor club carried 10 yards farther than my club. But, if you insist on dwelling on my yardages, keep in mind that real, living people who participate in this newsgroup have seen me play. In this NG we have people with 20+ handicaps who claim to hit 300+ yard drivers and 200 yard carry 5 irons. And you are calling me on a 185 yard demo shot, on a range? You are ignorant, aren’t you? My putting is just fine thank you. Consistent driving and short game are my problem areas. If you really did read my posts you would already knows this. You are complaining about a product review? My, my, you sadly misunderstand the purpose of this NG, don’t you? BTW, if my posts are so bad, why haven’t you put me into your killfile? You do know how to edit a killfile, don’t you? BTW, while you may not like how or what I wrote in the review, that’s all it was, my opinion of some clubs I demoed. I am not sure what the purpose of your post was, since you didn’t bother to agree or disagree with my assessment of the Wilson or MacGregor clubs and instead tired your fingers out trying to insult me. Oh well, I do know how to edit a killfile, so in the word of a true RSG hero – *PLONK* Daniel, Working the ball at will both left and right, deliberately hitting the ball off centre, carrying a 5 iron 185 yards, and playing off 16! Your putting must be really crap! Like most of your posts by the way! Before you buy.
– Dan Driscoll Current USGA Handicap Index – 16.1 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Keep Usenet Clean, Trash a Spammer!
Response:
Okay redr, lets take these one at a time. I understand it will take a while for all of this to sink in, but read through it several times and then sleep on it. Hopefully, you will eventually begin to understand.
Oooh Daniel, seem to have hit a raw nervle. Sorry. But any argument which starts with an opinion of the inteligence of the other person is always a bit suspect. Your arguments alone should show this. Do you really need to repetitively question my ability to comprehend your points, which can hardly be classed as up there with the likes of Hegel, or Descartes, or even Fred Couples if it comes to that. Anyway, I totally disagree, that it is easy to hit fades or draws. I play off 16.4 and I can honestly say, that I never play with anyone who can fade or draw at will. Most high handicappers, and I include myself, have a tendency to slice, which increases as the club number decreases. Some high handicappers that I know, usually the bigest, strongest, can produce spectacular hooks the envy and amazement of us mere slicers. For me, the aim is usually to hit the ball as straight as possible. The idea of fading the ball round a dog leg right or drawing round a dog leg left, does not even enter the equation. Hitting the fairway is the primary aim. For you and for me, reaching the green in 1 above regulation is the target. You don’t need to draw or fade at will. I don’t know which courses you play on but ability to draw or fade the ball at will does not even enter the equation with any golfer or any course that I know albeit I don’t regularly lay with anyone below 6 or 7 . What’s so hard about hitting the ball off the toe or heel? About as much as hitting off the centre every time. Why would you want to know how the club reacts to hitting off the heel or toe? Do you expect one club to be more lenient on you than another or what? A duff is a duff n’est ce pas? And then you get back to telling me how stupid I am again. Boring! And then again, you tell me I’m ignorant ( you like to labour a point don’t you?) I haven’t personally seen any 16 handicappers hitting 185 yards with a 5 iron. I know there must be those that can, but I cannot but express surpise. I would find it a bit easier to lower my handicap if I could do this. I hit a 5 iron about 160-165 yards.Yes your right, dont know anything about kill files, I don’t even know what "BTW" is. Ignorant eh? I don’t comment on your product review because I think too many people are conned into this idea that the clubs will sort their game out. You, with a 16 handicap are in no position to judge clubs. You are still fighting your own inconsistency and lack of ability ( as am I ) you are only encouraging the dumb consumers already mainlining the fashion drug. The golf industry loves you all! I have a set of Wilson Sam Snead irons, bottom of the range, bought in 1988. Any improvement to my game comes from playing more and practising more.Thats not to say I wouldn’t change if I could afford to., but I would rely on the advice of a Pro who could probably do a better job of matching me to a particular type of club. Finally, I am sorry that you think my intention was to insult you. I can only think that you are particularly thin skinned. I have found that there seems to be a number of people in these type of newsgroups who seem to think they are the lifeblood and are above criticism. A bit like golf clubs in general, at least in this country. I don’t know what you’r killfilee does but with my limited intelligence, I imagine you will arrange not to see this reply. Oh well, nothing wrong with talking to yourself! By the way, shot 77 off the winter tees /summer greens today. 66 sss and 3/4 handicap = 65. Bang on. Roll on summer 2000! Before you buy.
Response:
I haven’t personally seen any 16 handicappers hitting 185 yards with a 5 iron. I know there must be those that can, but I cannot but express surpise. I would find it a bit easier to lower my handicap if I could do this. I hit a 5 iron about 160-165 yards.
and your point there would be?? i play off quite a bit less than 16 and carry my 5i 175m (about 190y). quite a few of the 16 markers i play with with 5i’s longer than i do just not as straight. seems like you are a long way on the short side. brett
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay redr, lets take these one at a time. I understand it will take a while for all of this to sink in, but read through it several times and then sleep on it. Hopefully, you will eventually begin to understand. Oooh Daniel, seem to have hit a raw nervle. Sorry. But any argument which starts with an opinion of the inteligence of the other person is always a bit suspect. Your arguments alone should show this. Do you really need to repetitively question my ability to comprehend your points, which can hardly be classed as up there with the likes of Hegel, or Descartes, or even Fred Couples if it comes to that. Anyway, I totally disagree, that it is easy to hit fades or draws. I play off 16.4 and I can honestly say, that I never play with anyone who can fade or draw at will.
Don’t be such a windbag. 14 handicap players can’t fade or draw the ball consistently but there’s no great trick to either trajectory ON THE DRIVING RANGE. -joseph
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I haven’t personally seen any 16 handicappers hitting 185 yards with a 5 iron. I know there must be those that can, but I cannot but express surpise.
Hell, I used to routinely hit my graphite-shafted Big Bertha 5 iron 220 yards on firm fairways. Probably carried it 205 maybe 210 with a big swing, and planned for it to go 190-195 normally. I’m sure I never hit that club less than 185 unless I duffed the shot or was chipping with it. And this was my first year of playing, where I was a 14-25 handicap (~3 yr ago). Don’t assume that a mid or high handicap player is a short hitter. I’ve played with a number of people who shoot in the 80s but hit some 300 yard drives a long the way. -joseph
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Yes you are right, I am a bit on the short side. Also, I don’t hit the ball an enormous distance, but I do see that as a reason for having a 16 handicap. The need to use a larger club for the 2nd shot on a par 4 seems to me to be a likely reason for less chance of hitting the green in regulation. The point as you feel obliged to ask, although I feel I made it clear in my original post, is that all the people who can hit the ball these (to me) huge distances, must have a pretty poor game for the rest of the course if they still play off say, 16. I must admit that my point about distance is weaker than the one about working the ball left or right at will. But don’t golfers have the same disease as fisherman, a tendency to exaggerate. I twouldbe interesting to hear from other golfers, how far they hit the ball, with each club, and what their handicap is. Is there any connection with the fact (???) that in the USA, you can only buy condoms that are classed as either large, extra large, and exta, extra, large. Before you buy.
Response:
no there is only a fairly small connection as far as amateur golf goes. i’ve been whipped in head to head matchplay by guys who were consistently 2 clubs shorter than me and who played at around 0-2 handicap ranges. so from your post they were only marginally longer than you yet 16 strokes better around the course. seems you’ve obviously got other problems than just length. brett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes you are right, I am a bit on the short side. Also, I don’t hit the ball an enormous distance, but I do see that as a reason for having a 16 handicap. The need to use a larger club for the 2nd shot on a par 4 seems to me to be a likely reason for less chance of hitting the green in regulation. The point as you feel obliged to ask, although I feel I made it clear in my original post, is that all the people who can hit the ball these (to me) huge distances, must have a pretty poor game for the rest of the course if they still play off say, 16. I must admit that my point about distance is weaker than the one about working the ball left or right at will. But don’t golfers have the same disease as fisherman, a tendency to exaggerate. I twouldbe interesting to hear from other golfers, how far they hit the ball, with each club, and what their handicap is. Is there any connection with the fact (???) that in the USA, you can only buy condoms that are classed as either large, extra large, and exta, extra, large. Before you buy.
Response:
[...] The need to use a larger club for the 2nd shot on a par 4 seems to me to be a likely reason for less chance of hitting the green in regulation.
Ah, if you feel that way, then I can tell you how to take 10 shots off your game without any more distance. Work on your short game. -joseph
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Dan, I think Mizuno still makes a lefty forged blade. At least I know they did, as I saw them in the shop yesterday. $1,400 Canadian, so about the same as the McGregors. They looked great, but that is alot of dough for a set of clubs. Maybe as golf becomes more popular we will see more lefty forged blades. Something tells me that it is generally a low priority for most manufacturers. Before you buy.
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Will, Do you know what it is called? I have double checked Mizuno’s website and the only lefthanded forged club I could find was the MP-19, which is a cavity back. A few models of the T-Zoids may also be available in left hand, but they are also cavity backs. The MP-14 and MP-29 are right hand only. Dan, I think Mizuno still makes a lefty forged blade. At least I know they did, as I saw them in the shop yesterday. $1,400 Canadian, so about the same as the McGregors. They looked great, but that is alot of dough for a set of clubs. Maybe as golf becomes more popular we will see more lefty forged blades. Something tells me that it is generally a low priority for most manufacturers. Before you buy.
– Dan Driscoll Current USGA Handicap Index – 16.1 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Keep Usenet Clean, Trash a Spammer!
Response:
I didn’t catch the model name, but they were definitely blades and were sated to be forged, which I took to be true at the $$$. I looked on the lefties only web page and they also mentioned a Cleveland forged club, but not sure if this would be a blade. I bought a Wilson Staff blade 5 iron for ten bucks (new) on the weekend to practice and play around with. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will, Do you know what it is called? I have double checked Mizuno’s website and the only lefthanded forged club I could find was the MP-19, which is a cavity back. A few models of the T-Zoids may also be available in left hand, but they are also cavity backs. The MP-14 and MP-29 are right hand only. Dan, I think Mizuno still makes a lefty forged blade. At least I know they did, as I saw them in the shop yesterday. $1,400 Canadian, so about the same as the McGregors. They looked great, but that is alot of dough for a set of clubs. Maybe as golf becomes more popular we will see more lefty forged blades. Something tells me that it is generally a low priority for most manufacturers. Before you buy. — Dan Driscoll Current USGA Handicap Index – 16.1 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Keep Usenet Clean, Trash a Spammer!
Before you buy.
Response:
It may be a TP-9, which isn’t on the web site. Many of these companies don’t put everything on the web – Wilson doesn’t have the 8802 for instance. Golfsmith now has some Snake Eyes forged wedges in lefty, the heads are about $28. Maybe this means they will offer more lefthanded forged stuff in the future. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t catch the model name, but they were definitely blades and were sated to be forged, which I took to be true at the $$$. I looked on the lefties only web page and they also mentioned a Cleveland forged club, but not sure if this would be a blade. I bought a Wilson Staff blade 5 iron for ten bucks (new) on the weekend to practice and play around with. Will, Do you know what it is called? I have double checked Mizuno’s website and the only lefthanded forged club I could find was the MP-19, which is a cavity back. A few models of the T-Zoids may also be available in left hand, but they are also cavity backs. The MP-14 and MP-29 are right hand only. Dan, I think Mizuno still makes a lefty forged blade. At least I know they did, as I saw them in the shop yesterday. $1,400 Canadian, so about the same as the McGregors. They looked great, but that is alot of dough for a set of clubs. Maybe as golf becomes more popular we will see more lefty forged blades. Something tells me that it is generally a low priority for most manufacturers. Before you buy. — Dan Driscoll Current USGA Handicap Index – 16.1 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Keep Usenet Clean, Trash a Spammer! Before you buy.
Before you buy.
Response:
I saw the quotes in the replies from some other people and I have to admit that I just couldn’t resist. I’ll probably regret dragging this on later, but I’ll somehow manage to deal with it, I’m sure.
<snip Anyway, I totally disagree, that it is easy to hit fades or draws. I play off 16.4 and I can honestly say, that I never play with anyone who can fade or draw at will.
Ahh, if you can’t do it then no other 16 can do it either, I see. BTW, I never said I could do it at will or even that I try to draw or fade on the course. In fact, in my previous reply I expressly said that could not do it at will, but that on the range it was no big deal to pull another ball out of the bucket. But FYI, I do sometimes play fades and draws on the course, more often draws than fades because that is my natural shot. I also play with several people who can fade and draw at will and much better than I. But I don’t stop trying just because they do it better than I do, instead I try harder. Most high handicappers, and I include myself, have a tendency to slice, which increases as the club number decreases. Some high handicappers that I know, usually the bigest, strongest, can produce spectacular hooks the envy and amazement of us mere slicers.
I really don’t want your amazement or envy, a hook can be just as bad as a slice, it just goes farther. I worked long and hard to turn my normal hook into a draw, but it does escape me more often than I like. The only club I slice with any frequency is my driver and even then it is usaully because I tried to hit it straight instead of letting it draw. For me, the aim is usually to hit the ball as straight as possible. The idea of fading the ball round a dog leg right or drawing round a dog leg left, does not even enter the equation. Hitting the fairway is the primary aim. For you and for me, reaching the green in 1 above regulation is the target. You don’t need to draw or fade at will. I don’t know which courses you play on but ability to draw or fade the ball at will does not even enter the equation with any golfer or any course that I know albeit I don’t regularly lay with anyone below 6 or 7 .
Why, thank you for telling me what I need and how to play my game, I could never have done it on my own! For you playing bogey golf might be the target, but I consider that a surrender. At a 16 I already do bogey golf, why should I make my goal something I have already accomplished? My goal is pars on the more difficult holes I usually bogey and birdies on the holes I usually par. On some holes I accomplish this goal, on some holes I don’t. But I set my goal beyond my current abilty because a goal that is already in your grasp is is meaningless. What’s so hard about hitting the ball off the toe or heel? About as much as hitting off the centre every time.
There you go again, assuming that because you have a particular problem every other 16 handicapper must have the same problem. Toe or heal? Set-up 1/2 and inch too close or 1/2 an inch too far away, it’s easy, *for me*. Hitting off the toe or heel is not a problem I normally have. Hitting it thin or occassionally fat, and controlling distances are my problems. Why would you want to know how the club reacts to hitting off the heel or toe? Do you expect one club to be more lenient on you than another or what? A duff is a duff n’est ce pas?
Yes, I do expect oversized cast cavity backed clubs to be more forgiving on toe or heel shots than compact blade heads. Do you dispute that? One duff is not necessarily the same as another duff, whether you say it english or french. And then you get back to telling me how stupid I am again. Boring! And then again, you tell me I’m ignorant ( you like to labour a point don’t you?)
Your reply is only proving my point for me. Your knowledge of philosophers and french is irrelevent to the discussion and bringing them into it only makes you seem arrogant and condesending, but that is only my opinion, so do please feel free to continue. I haven’t personally seen any 16 handicappers hitting 185 yards with a 5 iron. I know there must be those that can, but I cannot but express surpise. I would find it a bit easier to lower my handicap if I could do this. I hit a 5 iron about 160-165 yards.
You really might want to expand your list of playing partners, but that’s up to you. I know and play with several people with higher handicaps who hit the ball notably farther than I do. I also play with a number of players with lower handicaps, some who hit shorter than I, some who hit longer. In my experience, within a reasonable range, distance is not a major factor in handicap levels, accuracy is far more important. One of my semi-regular partners is a woman who is at least 3 clubs shorter than me on every full swing shot there is. I hit my 2 iron farther than she hits her driver. From 150 yards I am hiting 8 iron and she is hitting 4 or 5 iron. But she beats me, gross from the white tees, on all but the longest courses because she is much more accurate than I am, she can work the ball beautifully, she has an outstanding short game and she putts lights out. So take if from someone who has been shown the light, distance is not all it is cracked up to be. Yes your right, dont know anything about kill files, I don’t even know what "BTW" is. Ignorant eh?
A ‘killfile’ is a software filter. All modern and many older newsreaders have them, simply go to the help index and look for FILTERS or KILLFILE. "BTW" stands for "By The Way". OTOH stands for On The Other Hand, IMO for In My Opinion, etc. I don’t comment on your product review because I think too many people are conned into this idea that the clubs will sort their game out. You, with a 16 handicap are in no position to judge clubs.
I don’t disagree with the basic premise that clubs in and of themselves will not improve your game or fix your swing. If you really had read anything from me in the past you would have known that that is something I have said numerous times. However, clubs that do not fit the player CAN cause problems as player improves, or more accurately, properly fitted clubs will help a player realize their potential. That is a personal determination that each player needs to make. Additionally, when players make a significant improvement in their game they often will outgrow their previous clubs. Note that I said "significant improvement". Taking 1 stroke off to go to 19 from 20 is not a significant improvement. Going from 25 to 15 is. Contrary to your opinion, with my 16 handicap I am in an excellent position to judge clubs for myself. I offered my opinion on the clubs I demoed and I made it very clear that it was opinion. In case you have a problem with this, I refer you to the charter for this newsgroup at: http://www.landfield.com/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/to.file/rec.s… Please note that it expressly includes product reviews and doesn’t not make any mention of the reviewers needing tohave a minimum handicap. You are still fighting your own inconsistency and lack of ability ( as am I ) you are only encouraging the dumb consumers already mainlining the fashion drug. The golf industry loves you all!
We, the great, unwashed golfing masses, thank you for your enlightened concern for our game and our wallets. Could you please protect us from unscrupulous politicians and used car dealers too, or is there a limit to your enlightenment? I have a set of Wilson Sam Snead irons, bottom of the range, bought in 1988. Any improvement to my game comes from playing more and practising more.
Playing with the same clubs for over 12 years and you are a 16? Perhaps you should try breaking some of those rigid opinions you are carrying around and try fading or drawing the ball a little. Or since your goal is to play bogey golf perhaps you are happy at the level you are at. If so, that’s fine, everyone is certainly entitled to play to the level they are happy with and that their ability permits. You are the player, you will have to make that judgement for yourself. If you do want to improve may I suggest that you engage the sevices of a qualified teaching pro? Your attempts to dicate to me or other players what is right or wrong for us is nothing but pure arrogance. I quote "For you and for me, reaching the green in 1 above regulation is the target. You don’t need to draw or fade at will.". If you don’t mind, I’ll make that determination myself. Your attitude of "only low handicappers can do that" is why you will probably never become a low handicapper yourself. The only way to learn how to do something in golf is to try it. I like to practice it on the range and then take it on the course. Will it work the first time, the second or even the third? Probably not. But somewhere alnog the line, if you have the physical ability and you practised it the correct way, it will begin to work. BTW, my teaching pro (PGA Certified Class A Pro Mark Madayay at Palo Alto Municical Golf Course in CA) is the one who taught me how to draw and fade. He is also the one who taught me how to hit my driver 260 (sometimes more) yards. Unfortunately, he hasn’t yet been able to teach me to keep it in the fairway 75% of the time, but we are working on that. If I ever manage to develope a feel for he short game he says I might actually become a decent player. FWIW, he has helped me move from a 30+ index 3 years ago to a low of 14.1 at the end of this past summer. Thats not to say I wouldn’t change if I could afford to., but I would rely on the advice of a Pro who could probably do a better job of matching me to a particular type of club. Finally, I am sorry that you think my intention was to insult you. I can only think that you are particularly thin skinned.
You are right, I must be pretty thin skinned. I mean, really, how could anyone … read more »
Response:
I have heard of the TP-9 before, but I thought it was out of production. I’ll ask about them at the proshop. AFAIK, I have never seen a set of them. Forged wedges in left hand have been available, but they usually are not stock items or they cost half again as much as the right handed version. But that has changed in the last few years and lefthanded forged wedges are much more widely available than in the past. Now I have to check out the KZG website. It may be a TP-9, which isn’t on the web site. Many of these companies don’t put everything on the web – Wilson doesn’t have the 8802 for instance. Golfsmith now has some Snake Eyes forged wedges in lefty, the heads are about $28. Maybe this means they will offer more lefthanded forged stuff in the future.
– Dan Driscoll Current USGA Handicap Index – 16.1 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Keep Usenet Clean, Trash a Spammer!
Response:
I have heard of the TP-9 before, but I thought it was out of production. I’ll ask about them at the proshop. AFAIK, I have never seen a set of them. Forged wedges in left hand have been available, but they usually are not stock items or they cost half again as much as the right handed version. But that has changed in the last few years and lefthanded forged wedges are much more widely available than in the past. Now I have to check out the KZG website.
The Snake Eyes forged Wedges are new in left for 2000 I believe, as I tried to buy one last year. They are a much cheaper alternative to $150 for a Vokey or similar. Mizuno sent me some pics of the TP-9. They are a muscleback, I don’t know if that means they aren’t a true blade or not. I guess that id a much different thread. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It may be a TP-9, which isn’t on the web site. Many of these companies don’t put everything on the web – Wilson doesn’t have the 8802 for instance. Golfsmith now has some Snake Eyes forged wedges in lefty, the heads are about $28. Maybe this means they will offer more lefthanded forged stuff in the future. — Dan Driscoll Current USGA Handicap Index – 16.1 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm Keep Usenet Clean, Trash a Spammer!
Before you buy.
Response:
I have just lost a detailed reply to you. Anyway I’m too tired to do it again as I have to travel south tomorrow quite early. I’d just like to make one point clear. I was horrified to see that I had said "Like most of your posts" You may not believe this but I truly thought I had typed. " I like most of your posts" I certainly don’t like to be downright abusive ( except with bigots, racists and violent people). It is quite an embarrasing mistake as it sounds quite insulting and that was not my intention I like to stir it a bit, but thats not my style. I apologise for this but I did actually like most of the posts by you. (but not this one and I am pissed off that I have lost my detailed reply. I will tackle it again when I return from work. Before you buy.