Question:
bingo. that old harvey had some good students to.imagine what was going through crenshaws head when he won the masters the week harvey died.penny for those thoughts.
Response:
Nope. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you the Bob S from Golf Web and the EWS Golf Board?
Response:
Can the hips open too quickly during the downswing?
Yes – thats what people have told me all my golfing life!, courtesy of reading Golf My Way by JN as a beginner. (though i do beleive the emphasis on leg action made me a better golfer, than if i hadnt) Any thoughts on hip turn and co-ordination in the downswing would be very appreciated. Regards, Neil
Yesterday I had my first formal lesson in about 13 years yesterday, I told the pro i thought i was hitting from the top, and too my surprise he said I was spinning my hips out too far and early in the downswing, and the top half had trouble catching up. resultant shots were often pushes, blocks, hitting very close to the heel, and occasionly smother hooks. He gave me a drill to work on that will help out, Tee up a ball high, and address the ball normally with a 7 iron. release the right arm and with right hand grab hold of left arm just above the elbow (palm facing towards you). Using this drill, the whole body must move together in unison to hit a half decent shot, and hopefully help prevent the hips spinning out. 2nd drill; square up to a target, the address ball with driver. now move ball forward to about 6 inches outside front foot. (might be better to ask someone to move it for you) now without changing setup position (important) swing, but try to hit ball about 40 yards right of your target. again this should help prevent hips spinning out, becuase if they do, you probably wont be able to reach the ball. hope this helps. Fore Right!, Mark Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it."
Response:
Try this. From the top of the back swing, drop your hands to waist high retaining the wrist cock, then complete the swing. This is the sequence of the downswing.
The sequence of the downstroke is the foot action leads the knee action, the knee action leads the hip action, the hip action leads the down stroke right shoulder, the right shoulder leads the right elbow and the right elbow leads the hands. This is extending the swing radius all the way to the ground giving us the greatest arc possible. Dropping the hands independent of any muscular tension is hitting from the top, period. The last part is when you activate the hips and the harder and faster you turn the more distance you will get as long as you retain the swing arc.
The last part should be a clearing if the left hip that 1) develops centrifugal force that releases the club, 2) squares the clubface through the pivot rotation, and 3) carries you to the finish. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
Take a normal full backswing and stop at the top. Without moving anything else (including your head) slide and turn your left hip over the left foot. Look where your hands and club are. When your left hip moved your right shoulder was forced to drop and your right elbow is down by your right hip. Your hands aren’t that far from waste high and the club has dropped onto the downswing plane and the butt of the club is pointing at the ball. This is the correct first move. All you have to do now is continue to turn. If the downswing starts with the hips then the hardest part of the swing is complete (getting the club on the correct downswing plane) almost for free. Bob S.
Are you the Bob S from Golf Web and the EWS Golf Board? David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
In your opinion, is the lateral slide the FIRST move in the downswing or is it combined some other move in the upper body?
The lateral slide is the first move, or more precisely, a lateral slide back to square. First there is hip motion, this is how the hips move. Then there is hip action, this is the work the hips do, they lead and power the down stroke shoulder turn. I seem to recall a number of accounts of the so called ‘magic move’ which combines the hip slide with a simultaneous dropping of the right elbow, close to the right side of the body.
In my opinion there is no magic move in the golf swing. When you unwind your hips back to the left they separate from the upper body increasing the tension between the two. It is this tension that pulls down the right shoulder, arms, and hands. This is how the pivot powers the stroke with the large muscles. I want you to take a look at your right elbow at address, it’s in front of your right pant pocket. Why people have been taught to tuck the elbow into the side I have no idea, this is a misconception. It should return to its address position in front of the right pant pocket. If you move your right elbow to your right side at address notice how far back it moves the hands, same thing happens in the down stroke. Tucking the right elbow into your side limits your hand travel and you have to release early for the club to reach the ball for impact. If you return your elbow to its address position the hands have a greater travel and can lead the club further into impact. Also, how do you *feel* where the lateral hip slide ends and the turn begins? – (I suspect I may be getting too far in front of the ball, causing me to push my driver).
The down stroke should be a combination of the two, most often referred to as a ’slide turn’. The hips should pass through a square position to drop the right shoulder and get the club on plane, then the left hip turns and clears. If you’re pushing the ball chances are your plane aims to the right. This is usually a result of keeping the hips too square blocking out the on-plane follow through. Try having your hips turned a little more at impact and laying your right arm across your chest into the finish. Is it sufficient just to keep your head behind the ball at impact to ‘Stay Behind The Ball’.
That about the only way to stay behind it. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can the hips open too quickly during the downswing? Yes! [SNIP] I can’t remember if I read this in Hogan’s book or a magazine article about his swing several years ago, but I do recall him saying that he felt he couldn’t turn his hips fast enough. I feel like he left out one vital fact and he does it in every picture I seen of his swing, he slides his hips way over to the left while they’re turning. If you take another look at that picture I’m willing to bet his left hip is over his left foot. If you turn the hips with no slide you’ll come over the top just about every time. The key to have a lateral slide to drop the right shoulder getting the shaft on plane than the accelerated hip turn (clearing the left hip) to fire the release and carry you to the finish.
David, In your opinion, is the lateral slide the FIRST move in the downswing or is it combined some other move in the upper body? – I seem to recall a number of accounts of the so called ‘magic move’ which combines the hip slide with a simultaneous dropping of the right elbow, close to the right side of the body. Also, how do you *feel* where the lateral hip slide ends and the turn begins? – (I suspect I may be getting too far in front of the ball, causing me to push my driver). Is it sufficient just to keep your head behind the ball at impact to ‘Stay Behind The Ball’. Regards, Neil
Response:
Try this. From the top of the back swing, drop your hands to waist high retaining the wrist cock, then complete the swing. This is the sequence of the downswing. The last part is when you activate the hips and the harder and faster you turn the more distance you will get as long as you retain the swing arc. Look at Leadbetter or McClean’s explaination of what happens in the downswing.
I’ve seen this advice of dropping the hands first several times in this ng lately. I think it’s very bad advice. Try this experiment: Take a normal full backswing and stop at the top. Without moving anything else (including your head) slide and turn your left hip over the left foot. Look where your hands and club are. When your left hip moved your right shoulder was forced to drop and your right elbow is down by your right hip. Your hands aren’t that far from waste high and the club has dropped onto the downswing plane and the butt of the club is pointing at the ball. This is the correct first move. All you have to do now is continue to turn. If the downswing starts with the hips then the hardest part of the swing is complete (getting the club on the correct downswing plane) almost for free. Now try this: Take a normal full backswing and stop at the top again. Without doing anything else drop your hands to waste high. Now turn you hips and look what happens to the club. It’s forced WAAAAAAAY out in front of you and off plane. Good luck even hitting the ball from this position. If you start with the hip turn the swing becomes one continuous fluid motion if done correctly. If you start by dropping your hands the swing becomes two parts — a major fuckup followed by a desperate attempt to recover. This is all in Hogan’s book by the way. If you haven’t read it you should. Bob S.
Response:
Try this. From the top of the back swing, drop your hands to waist high retaining the wrist cock, then complete the swing. This is the sequence of the downswing. The last part is when you activate the hips and the harder and faster you turn the more distance you will get as long as you retain the swing arc. Look at Leadbetter or McClean’s explaination of what happens in the downswing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can the hips open too quickly during the downswing? In Ben Hogan’s book (Five Lessons The Modern Fundamentals Of Golf) he states that during the downswing "The faster the hips move, the better. They can’t go too fast" – the drawing on this page shows him in the half way down position with his hips almost fully open, facing the target! I find, that if I follow this method, the relationship between my hips and upper body separates so much, I invariably push the ball out to the right. However, if you watch Tiger in slow motion, he almost screws himself apart. Any thoughts on hip turn and co-ordination in the downswing would be very appreciated. It’s fair to say that Hogan was right — that the hips can’t turn too quickly. However, he failed to include a very important ingredient — connection. As long as you maintain connection, everything will stay in sync. But if you turn your hips to the left and allow your arms to bounce away from your body (in particular, around the armpit areas), you will — by definition — have allowed the club to get *outside plane*, and you’ve set up an out-to-in path at impact, which, more than likely, will result in a fade, or worse, a slice. Most of the modern power players (Tiger, Duval and virtually all the others) are so well-conditioned that we often overlook the importance of their strength, muscle-wise. We always talk about the golf swing being a free-moving, fluid action, which requires the arms and hands being tension-free. All this is true, but when the club is moving at such a fast speed, it creates tremendous pull (intertia) which tends to make the arms want to pull away from the body. It takes some strength to fight this and to stay on-plane when you’re creating such "G-force." One of Harvey Penick’s favorite drills when he was coach at the University of Texas was to pick out a target about 100 yards away and have his players try to hit it with a 5-iron. This promotes a slow-motion swing, which eventually (if you keep trying it) results in a very smooth, rhythmic swing. Pretty soon, you find out you can actually hit the ball farther and straighter with this slower rhythm than you can by really trying to jump on it. Randy
Response:
If the forces you create while turning your body tend to pull your arms off plane then you’re screwed. There’s no way anyone could hit a ball consistently if this were the case. If your club wants to fly off plane then your axis of rotation is wrong.
Someone with a grasp of the swing! This is why it is so vital the right shoulder turn on plane with the ball, to direct and guide all force and motion developed by the pivot turn at the ball. Where ever the right shoulder goes so does the hands and club. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
Can the hips open too quickly during the downswing?
Yes! In Ben Hogan’s book (Five Lessons The Modern Fundamentals Of Golf) he states that during the downswing "The faster the hips move, the better. They can’t go too fast" – the drawing on this page shows him in the half way down position with his hips almost fully open, facing the target! I find, that if I follow this method, the relationship between my hips and upper body separates so much, I invariably push the ball out to the right. However, if you watch Tiger in slow motion, he almost screws himself apart. Any thoughts on hip turn and co-ordination in the downswing would be very appreciated.
I can’t remember if I read this in Hogan’s book or a magazine article about his swing several years ago, but I do recall him saying that he felt he couldn’t turn his hips fast enough. I feel like he left out one vital fact and he does it in every picture I seen of his swing, he slides his hips way over to the left while they’re turning. If you take another look at that picture I’m willing to bet his left hip is over his left foot. If you turn the hips with no slide you’ll come over the top just about every time. The key to have a lateral slide to drop the right shoulder getting the shaft on plane than the accelerated hip turn (clearing the left hip) to fire the release and carry you to the finish. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
but when the club is moving at such a fast speed, it creates tremendous pull (intertia) which tends to make the arms want to pull away from the body. It takes some strength to fight this and to stay on-plane when you’re creating such "G-force." Randy If the forces you create while turning your body tend to pull your arms off plane then you’re screwed. There’s no way anyone could hit a ball consistently if this were the case. If your club wants to fly off plane then your axis of rotation is wrong. Bob S.
I think this goes into the old discussion about centrifugal and centripetal force. Simply, in a rotating system there is a force pulling to the outside (i.e. rock on a string, the faster you swing the string the more the rock moves to the outside etc.) Now if your swing has one axis of rotation and you were able to swing that club on a plane that was exactly perpendicular to that axis, then the force would be pulling the club out, but it would still be on plane. Of course the monkey wrench to the whole thing is the human body is not a simple rotating system. As to the question of the original post, I too agree with Hogan’s feeling that the hips can’t get too far out in front. I know from time to time I have heard the phrase "hips to far ahead to describe some swing ailment" but I’ve never experienced it. When I was younger and more supple (and coincidentally at a time just after reading Hogan’s Five Lessons) I worked on getting my hips out in front of the ball as far as I could, and that was also around the time I played some of the best golf of my life. The whole hips ahead of the shoulders motion I think is a power motion more than accuracy motion. But I think the key is let the big muscles to the big work and let the little ones do the little work.
Response:
Can the hips open too quickly during the downswing? In Ben Hogan’s book (Five Lessons The Modern Fundamentals Of Golf) he states that during the downswing "The faster the hips move, the better. They can’t go too fast" – the drawing on this page shows him in the half way down position with his hips almost fully open, facing the target! I find, that if I follow this method, the relationship between my hips and upper body separates so much, I invariably push the ball out to the right. However, if you watch Tiger in slow motion, he almost screws himself apart. Any thoughts on hip turn and co-ordination in the downswing would be very appreciated. Regards, Neil
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can the hips open too quickly during the downswing? In Ben Hogan’s book (Five Lessons The Modern Fundamentals Of Golf) he states that during the downswing "The faster the hips move, the better. They can’t go too fast" – the drawing on this page shows him in the half way down position with his hips almost fully open, facing the target! I find, that if I follow this method, the relationship between my hips and upper body separates so much, I invariably push the ball out to the right. However, if you watch Tiger in slow motion, he almost screws himself apart. Any thoughts on hip turn and co-ordination in the downswing would be very appreciated.
It’s fair to say that Hogan was right — that the hips can’t turn too quickly. However, he failed to include a very important ingredient — connection. As long as you maintain connection, everything will stay in sync. But if you turn your hips to the left and allow your arms to bounce away from your body (in particular, around the armpit areas), you will — by definition — have allowed the club to get *outside plane*, and you’ve set up an out-to-in path at impact, which, more than likely, will result in a fade, or worse, a slice. Most of the modern power players (Tiger, Duval and virtually all the others) are so well-conditioned that we often overlook the importance of their strength, muscle-wise. We always talk about the golf swing being a free-moving, fluid action, which requires the arms and hands being tension-free. All this is true, but when the club is moving at such a fast speed, it creates tremendous pull (intertia) which tends to make the arms want to pull away from the body. It takes some strength to fight this and to stay on-plane when you’re creating such "G-force." One of Harvey Penick’s favorite drills when he was coach at the University of Texas was to pick out a target about 100 yards away and have his players try to hit it with a 5-iron. This promotes a slow-motion swing, which eventually (if you keep trying it) results in a very smooth, rhythmic swing. Pretty soon, you find out you can actually hit the ball farther and straighter with this slower rhythm than you can by really trying to jump on it. Randy
Response:
<snip Most of the modern power players (Tiger, Duval and virtually all the others) are so well-conditioned that we often overlook the importance of their strength, muscle-wise. We always talk about the golf swing being a free-moving, fluid action, which requires the arms and hands being tension-free. All this is true, but when the club is moving at such a fast speed, it creates tremendous pull (intertia) which tends to make the arms want to pull away from the body. It takes some strength to fight this and to stay on-plane when you’re creating such "G-force." <snip Randy
If the forces you create while turning your body tend to pull your arms off plane then you’re screwed. There’s no way anyone could hit a ball consistently if this were the case. If your club wants to fly off plane then your axis of rotation is wrong. Bob S.