Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP Dave: I don’t have any problem with the reasoning you present above, but where we’d part company on this is whether a 200-yard shot is as accurate as a 100-yard shot, or as likely to be successful. It’s an assumption you present to initiate the argument about "does it matter which comes first." I don’t disagree with the end result, but I question the assumption. It really not my assumption that it is, only a logical derivitive of the original reasoning and I question the 200 yarder is as accurate as claimed as well. Most golfers experience that skulled 50 yard shot off the Tee straight up the center as most skulled shots are. I have this funny little notion that the greater the distance the less likely it is to make an accurate in feet or yards (ie not angular) longer shot than a shorter one. Hence the closer to the pin you are on the first shot the closer to the pin you will likely be on susequent shots. Hence the desirability to make a decently long first shot. At "my" course there is a 289 yard par 4 hole. Some people can by hook or crook or just ability land a ball on it off the tee, but most of us mortals need 2 strokes, very few make the green on a skulled shot 50 – 100 yards out with the second no matter how good they are otherwise, but if they are 30 yards short or right its almost certain they will.
OK, we’re talking about different things. I thought you were referring to 200 yard approaches to the green. Certainly it’s easier to hit a 200 yard shot into the fairway than hit a green surrounded by trouble. And for me, closer is usually better. However, there are times when it makes more sense to lay back giving yourself a different shot than the shortest. If, for instance, you’re more comfortable with a full 110-yard PW than a funny 60-yard shot that you don’t have the club for. Sure, it’ll take two shots to get on (unlike many RSG’ers, I don’t routinely hit 300-yard drives 
, but that 200 yard shot isn’t a high success-rate shot, esp. if there’s a lot of trouble around the green. I’m not aware of anyone who’s a really good golfer who’d prefer a 200-yard shot over a 100-yard shot. Neither am I, but the argument is about a very accurate 200 yard shot
But it depends on whether we’re talking about hitting into a wide fairway with little trouble around the landing spot, or a green surrounded by trouble. On the other hand, I do have a fairly decent 200-yard 3-iron, so in the absence of a lot of trouble (tight treelined fairway, water off to the right of the green, like that), I’d certainly give it a try. I hit one like that Monday, 185 into a stiff breeze. Shots like that make you want to come back. (I won’t tell you about the shots that make you think twice about coming back, like the duck hook today that almost made me cry). We all get them, the good the bad and the pig ugly. What I was trying to get at–although I didn’t use these words–is that the approach is to try to take the big numbers out of the equation.
I had exactly this experience yesterday (shame on me for experimenting on the course, I deserved what I got). Went out in 40 (par 34), then started the par 37 second nine. Parred the first hole, then took double, triple, quad. Ended up shooting an 87, which wasn’t that bad given the mess in the middle, but what could it have been? The double was poor course management in getting above the hole on a very tough green, had a 6-foot downhill breaker that I just barely started toward the hole, ended up 12 feet below the hole (VERY tough green). I was experimenting with hitting draws off the tee on the next hole (par 5), and just crushed a drive that I mis-aimed, and the wind took it, and it ended up under a low-hanging pine tree. I took an unplayable, chipped out, still had no shot, did it again (now I’m lying four!), finally put the ball on the green and two-putted for my 8. Then, still trying out this new swing, I proceeded to hook two balls OB on the next hole, getting down for another 8. (A quad). I finished the nine with bogey-par-par-birdie-bogey. The first double was just playing stupidly (I end up above the hole a lot on this hole, I don’t know why, I try very hard to leave it below the hole). But the other two disasters, if I had been playing smart rather than experimenting, would have likely been no worse than 1-over (both are relatively easy holes). Take 6 shots off those two and I’m at 81. So losing the big numbers has a lot to do with scoring well. Mike — Mike Dalecki I do not patronize spammers! Help keep R.S.G clean. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
Do I need a traction device permit if I stud my golf cart? What if I use softspikes for studs? I dunno…..but i was thinking of some lightweight suspension parts or maybe a lexan hood would look cool!…
You want lexan??–check out my bicycle on web page below. I’d like to put some fat tires on it and have a human powered golf cart! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
Mike… You are so right. Supporting the efforts of our SPAManators is the way to go! Keep up the great work. RJ … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reason that I suck at golf, is this is my first season, and this time of year work is really busy for me, but I will get better. I don’t want to be one of those guys who are "all talk" I’ll admit it when I suck! Know what you mean, I golfed about 1/4 of what I did last year and it shows. I have no problem with people batling spam, but I also have no problem when it is golf related. If someone wants to email the spammer thats fine, but to litter the newsgroup with anti-spam threads is counter-productive. It isnt the anti-spam messages. I usually just change the origional post/spammers title to show spam and thats it. I also private Email them. It’s the 20 posts ragging on the "Spam Police" that make it counter-productive. There are a lot of newsgroups I follow where there are no active spam police and they aren’t overwhelmed with spam. I read alt.fishing and alt.fishing.minnesota, SPAM city Most of my other groups (except RSS) are moderated. Anyways, about that 2 stroke golf cart…..I wonder if you could put a set of pipes on that baby!…. Do I need a traction device permit if I stud my golf cart? What if I use softspikes for studs? Mike "Snowmobilers for Bush" Darren 97 RMK 700 http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/ Darren, I don’t think Bobby was trying to be a jerk. He was pointing out the corralation of your liking sledding more than golf. Hence, you probably sled more than you golf, hence you would be better at sledding than golf. I for example, golf much more than I sled, so I’m better at golf that I am at sledding. No, wait, I suck at both Now, if they could only come up with a two-stroke golf cart. I love the smell of two-stroke in the morning…. Mike 96 Skidoo Formula STX I sure hope you’re joking…cause I’d hate to think you’re actually a jerk. Do you think that everyone here has to be a great golfer to read/post to this group?.. Oh, and by the way… do you keep such close tabs on everyone’s previous posts..or just mine? — Darren http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/ I don’t know, but I suck too, and played 9 holes the other week with a cart, my friend,and his wife played and my wife tagged along for the ride. I played horribly. From a previous post: I’ve just taken up golf this summer, but I wouldn’t trade it for my snowmobile!….Its 10 times more fun than golf… Could there be a correlation here? "Someone likes every shot" bk
Response:
hehe, now I just have to figgure out where to mount the Hot-Dogger For you non-sleders, the Hot-Dogger is a cooking box that mounts to the exhaust on a snowmobile. Put in a few ‘dogs, hit the trail for a couple hours, and presto hot trail lunch with no two-stroke taste. On a golf related note, I’ve been seeing more and more beer carts at courses here in MN that have hot-dog cookers mounted on them. Pretty soon I suppose they will be pulling a salad bar trailer as well.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dunno…..but i was thinking of some lightweight suspension parts or maybe a lexan hood would look cool!…and I bet you could really improve the performance with some clutching mods! — Darren 97 RMK 700
Response:
Hey!…thats pretty cool….aint lexan great stuff?….you’ve put a lot of work into that!….. — Darren 97 RMK 700 http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do I need a traction device permit if I stud my golf cart? What if I use softspikes for studs? I dunno…..but i was thinking of some lightweight suspension parts or maybe a lexan hood would look cool!… You want lexan??–check out my bicycle on web page below. I’d like to put some fat tires on it and have a human powered golf cart! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX http://www.geocities.com/~texasp38 RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip One of the big advancements in my approach to the game was to stop trying to hit the shots I know the pros can hit (and by extension, that I should be able to hit, right?). Instead, I look to hit shots I know I can hit with a high likelihood of success, even when they look to concede bogey right off the bat. Lets go backwards on this a bit. we have a 300 yard hole to play, you feel safe in making a 100 shot to the green and also feel confident in making a 200 yd shots. If the deal is to use 2 clubs to get on, then there shouldn’t be many cusses when that first one bloops out 100 yards since you have the confidence to get on with the next shot. Perhaps you do but I’d feel a lot more confident in making a 50 yd pitch than a 100 even if it wasn’t in the center of the fairway.
Dave: I don’t have any problem with the reasoning you present above, but where we’d part company on this is whether a 200-yard shot is as accurate as a 100-yard shot, or as likely to be successful. It’s an assumption you present to initiate the argument about "does it matter which comes first." I don’t disagree with the end result, but I question the assumption. Sure, it’ll take two shots to get on (unlike many RSG’ers, I don’t routinely hit 300-yard drives , but that 200 yard shot isn’t a high success-rate shot, esp. if there’s a lot of trouble around the green. I’m not aware of anyone who’s a really good golfer who’d prefer a 200-yard shot over a 100-yard shot. On the other hand, I do have a fairly decent 200-yard 3-iron, so in the absence of a lot of trouble (tight treelined fairway, water off to the right of the green, like that), I’d certainly give it a try. I hit one like that Monday, 185 into a stiff breeze. Shots like that make you want to come back. (I won’t tell you about the shots that make you think twice about coming back, like the duck hook today that almost made me cry). What I was trying to get at–although I didn’t use these words–is that the approach is to try to take the big numbers out of the equation. I’ve talked to several good golfers (some here on RSG, some here were I live) who say the key to scoring well is eliminating the doubles and triples. So I tend to do that kind of thing. No triples today, but four doubles en route to an 85 (14 over) where I missed 4 or 5 makeable birdie putts. Eliminate the doubles, make a couple of putts, (NOTHING dropped, it was one of those days, all over the hole but never breaking 4 inches down at the end), and I’m in the 70s. What a game. Can’t wait to try again tommorrow or Saturday. Mike — Mike Dalecki I do not patronize spammers! Help keep R.S.G clean. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
Do I need a traction device permit if I stud my golf cart? What if I use softspikes for studs?
I dunno…..but i was thinking of some lightweight suspension parts or maybe a lexan hood would look cool!…and I bet you could really improve the performance with some clutching mods! — Darren 97 RMK 700 http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reason that I suck at golf, is this is my first season, and this time of year work is really busy for me, but I will get better. I don’t want to be one of those guys who are "all talk" I’ll admit it when I suck! Know what you mean, I golfed about 1/4 of what I did last year and it shows. I have no problem with people batling spam, but I also have no problem when it is golf related. If someone wants to email the spammer thats fine, but to litter the newsgroup with anti-spam threads is counter-productive. It isnt the anti-spam messages. I usually just change the origional post/spammers title to show spam and thats it. I also private Email them. It’s the 20 posts ragging on the "Spam Police" that make it counter-productive. There are a lot of newsgroups I follow where there are no active spam police and they aren’t overwhelmed with spam. I read alt.fishing and alt.fishing.minnesota, SPAM city Most of my other groups (except RSS) are moderated. Anyways, about that 2 stroke golf cart…..I wonder if you could put a set of pipes on that baby!…. Do I need a traction device permit if I stud my golf cart? What if I use softspikes for studs? Mike "Snowmobilers for Bush" Darren 97 RMK 700 http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/ Darren, I don’t think Bobby was trying to be a jerk. He was pointing out the corralation of your liking sledding more than golf. Hence, you probably sled more than you golf, hence you would be better at sledding than golf. I for example, golf much more than I sled, so I’m better at golf that I am at sledding. No, wait, I suck at both Now, if they could only come up with a two-stroke golf cart. I love the smell of two-stroke in the morning…. Mike 96 Skidoo Formula STX I sure hope you’re joking…cause I’d hate to think you’re actually a jerk. Do you think that everyone here has to be a great golfer to read/post to this group?.. Oh, and by the way… do you keep such close tabs on everyone’s previous posts..or just mine? — Darren http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/ I don’t know, but I suck too, and played 9 holes the other week with a cart, my friend,and his wife played and my wife tagged along for the ride. I played horribly. From a previous post: I’ve just taken up golf this summer, but I wouldn’t trade it for my snowmobile!….Its 10 times more fun than golf… Could there be a correlation here? "Someone likes every shot" bk
Response:
The reason that I suck at golf, is this is my first season, and this time of year work is really busy for me, but I will get better. I don’t want to be one of those guys who are "all talk" I’ll admit it when I suck!
Know what you mean, I golfed about 1/4 of what I did last year and it shows. I have no problem with people batling spam, but I also have no problem when it is golf related. If someone wants to email the spammer thats fine, but to litter the newsgroup with anti-spam threads is counter-productive.
It isnt the anti-spam messages. I usually just change the origional post/spammers title to show spam and thats it. I also private Email them. It’s the 20 posts ragging on the "Spam Police" that make it counter-productive. There are a lot of newsgroups I follow where there are no active spam police and they aren’t overwhelmed with spam.
I read alt.fishing and alt.fishing.minnesota, SPAM city Most of my other groups (except RSS) are moderated. Anyways, about that 2 stroke golf cart…..I wonder if you could put a set of pipes on that baby!….
Do I need a traction device permit if I stud my golf cart? What if I use softspikes for studs? Mike "Snowmobilers for Bush" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Darren 97 RMK 700 http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/ Darren, I don’t think Bobby was trying to be a jerk. He was pointing out the corralation of your liking sledding more than golf. Hence, you probably sled more than you golf, hence you would be better at sledding than golf. I for example, golf much more than I sled, so I’m better at golf that I am at sledding. No, wait, I suck at both Now, if they could only come up with a two-stroke golf cart. I love the smell of two-stroke in the morning…. Mike 96 Skidoo Formula STX I sure hope you’re joking…cause I’d hate to think you’re actually a jerk. Do you think that everyone here has to be a great golfer to read/post to this group?.. Oh, and by the way… do you keep such close tabs on everyone’s previous posts..or just mine? — Darren http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/ I don’t know, but I suck too, and played 9 holes the other week with a cart, my friend,and his wife played and my wife tagged along for the ride. I played horribly. From a previous post: I’ve just taken up golf this summer, but I wouldn’t trade it for my snowmobile!….Its 10 times more fun than golf… Could there be a correlation here? "Someone likes every shot" bk
Response:
Okay Mike, I’ll take your word for it….I assume at first that everyone’s a nice guy, but some people just make it difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt. The reason that I suck at golf, is this is my first season, and this time of year work is really busy for me, but I will get better. I don’t want to be one of those guys who are "all talk" I’ll admit it when I suck! I have no problem with people batling spam, but I also have no problem when it is golf related. If someone wants to email the spammer thats fine, but to litter the newsgroup with anti-spam threads is counter-productive……you aren’t gonna stop all the spam so if you make a 5 or 10 message thread out of every post that includes a url then it would seem as the spam has beaten us. There are a lot of newsgroups I follow where there are no active spam police and they aren’t overwhelmed with spam. In fact a lot of the messages seem to be there for some sort of advertisment, maybe just to invite people to check out their site, and a at times those are the most interesting and informative posts. Anyways, about that 2 stroke golf cart…..I wonder if you could put a set of pipes on that baby!…. — Darren 97 RMK 700 http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Darren, I don’t think Bobby was trying to be a jerk. He was pointing out the corralation of your liking sledding more than golf. Hence, you probably sled more than you golf, hence you would be better at sledding than golf. I for example, golf much more than I sled, so I’m better at golf that I am at sledding. No, wait, I suck at both Now, if they could only come up with a two-stroke golf cart. I love the smell of two-stroke in the morning…. Mike 96 Skidoo Formula STX I sure hope you’re joking…cause I’d hate to think you’re actually a jerk. Do you think that everyone here has to be a great golfer to read/post to this group?.. Oh, and by the way… do you keep such close tabs on everyone’s previous posts..or just mine? — Darren http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/ I don’t know, but I suck too, and played 9 holes the other week with a cart, my friend,and his wife played and my wife tagged along for the ride. I played horribly. From a previous post: I’ve just taken up golf this summer, but I wouldn’t trade it for my snowmobile!….Its 10 times more fun than golf… Could there be a correlation here? "Someone likes every shot" bk
Response:
I don’t know, but I suck too, and played 9 holes the other week with a cart, my friend,and his wife played and my wife tagged along for the ride. I played horribly.
From a previous post: I’ve just taken up golf this summer, but I wouldn’t trade it for my snowmobile!….Its 10 times more fun than golf…
Could there be a correlation here? "Someone likes every shot" bk
Response:
I sure hope you’re joking…cause I’d hate to think you’re actually a jerk. Do you think that everyone here has to be a great golfer to read/post to this group?.. Oh, and by the way… do you keep such close tabs on everyone’s previous posts..or just mine? — Darren http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know, but I suck too, and played 9 holes the other week with a cart, my friend,and his wife played and my wife tagged along for the ride. I played horribly. From a previous post: I’ve just taken up golf this summer, but I wouldn’t trade it for my snowmobile!….Its 10 times more fun than golf… Could there be a correlation here? "Someone likes every shot" bk
Response:
Darren, I don’t think Bobby was trying to be a jerk. He was pointing out the corralation of your liking sledding more than golf. Hence, you probably sled more than you golf, hence you would be better at sledding than golf. I for example, golf much more than I sled, so I’m better at golf that I am at sledding. No, wait, I suck at both Now, if they could only come up with a two-stroke golf cart. I love the smell of two-stroke in the morning…. Mike 96 Skidoo Formula STX
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I sure hope you’re joking…cause I’d hate to think you’re actually a jerk. Do you think that everyone here has to be a great golfer to read/post to this group?.. Oh, and by the way… do you keep such close tabs on everyone’s previous posts..or just mine? — Darren http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/ I don’t know, but I suck too, and played 9 holes the other week with a cart, my friend,and his wife played and my wife tagged along for the ride. I played horribly. From a previous post: I’ve just taken up golf this summer, but I wouldn’t trade it for my snowmobile!….Its 10 times more fun than golf… Could there be a correlation here? "Someone likes every shot" bk
Response:
<snip Art stupidly trying to analyze Mike’s recommendations You offered a way to improve his score that worked for you. I offered a way to improve his score that worked for me (see a pro). If I’ve offended you, I’m sorry. I will refrain from injecting my opinions on your posts as I can see how two differing views can confuse the matter. I should’ve posted my opinion in another post under the topic and shouldn’t have tried to analyze your strategies. I’m sorry if I messed up the commmunications with the original poster. I’ll leave this thread with this: "My opinion on Mike’s advice is not important. Mike has had success with this method and I hope anything I’ve said here doesn’t deter you from trying it if you feel it makes sense for your game at this point in time." Again, sorry Mike, I did not mean confuse the matter.
Response:
Come on, guys, I understand the advice from both of you, and I think it’s ALL applicable. (How’s that for diplomacy:) Actually, I use mostly all woods (you know, the short woods that go down to 15-wood. I have a 9 iron and a wedge for the chipping, sand, etc. Mike’s advice for me means to use a short wood on the fairway instead of trying to reach the green with a long wood. I try to do that most of the time, but sometimes I do try to go for the gold with a long wood, and more often than not, flub it. The club I like the most is my 7 wood. I hit it well 75% of the time. By choking up or down, I can hit it anywhere from 140 to 160 yds. That will often put me within pitching distance on most par 4s. The I can use my othet favorite club — my 15 wood, that I can hit from 80 yds. in. It has the trajectory of a pitching wedge, and lands the ball with minimal roll. I think I could probably play as well with 4 or 5 clubs right now as I can with my whole bag. The conservative course management is a good idea, as the 14 I scored was due almost entirely to going for it, instead of just taking my medicine, punching the ball out on the fairway, and playing it there. On the other hand, on another hole, my ball was so close to a tree that I would have trouble making the follow-through with my swing. But I went for it, and made a nice shot, even though I did hit my shaft against the tree slightly. The ball landed in the middle of the fairway, 100 yds closer to the pin than if I would’ve punched it out. I felt like a hero, even though it was risky. I guess sometimes you need to play like Annika, and sometimes you have to play like Arnie (two examples off the top of my head for a conservative vs. a go-for-it mentality. So anyway, thanks to both Mike and Art for their advice, and to the others as well. Before you buy.
Response:
Yesterday, par 4, 375, into the wind. Uphill approach to an elevated green. I hit about a 200 yard drive into the wind, leaving me the 175 uphill into the wind. I don’t really have this shot, although I could have tried the 3-wood. The problem yesterday is that the 3-wood was spraying, and I didn’t want to lose the hole to a mishit of epic proportions. So I hit an ok 3-iron which leaked right, but which I got to within about 10 yards of the green. Not great, but serviceable, as I could then hit a little lob shot to the green. I did, in fact, get up and down for a par. But I didn’t do anything stupid on the hole. I accepted the fact that given the wind and terrain, a par was going to be hard. But I got one anyway, because I put myself in position to have a chance.
Sounds like this one hole I have problems with. 430 yard par 4, tight driving hole too. If I drive it straight, I’m usually 200 yards out, slightly uphill. I always hit the three wood, figuring if I come up short, I can get as close as possible. Last two times I’ve played the hole I’ve hit a good drive to leave myself 190-200, then I probably try to overhit it and leak it right, into the patch of trees to the right of the green. Not thick, but enough that you usually don’t have a clear pitch to the green. Go right from a bogey, possible par to double bogey, maybe bogey, maybe triple. That’s a hole where I should take a bogey and be damn happy for it, but I just have to try to hit that green in two.
Response:
One approach is to play a round with nothing longer than a 5 iron. Or a 7-iron. Or the longest club you can hit decently and consistently. Then, when you’ve mastered that (won’t take as long as you think), start adding back the longer clubs when you’ve developed a swing that will let you hit them consistently. Sorry, I can’t agree here. Shooting only a 7 or shorter ALL THE TIME can be dangerous. I did it in my "search for scoring". I did score pretty good numbers but screwed my swing up. You can get away with some hand movement and manipulation with short irons that is death with the long clubs. Your margin for error is much greater. You also have a much more vertical plane so you have trouble when you move to the flatter plane of the bigger clubs.
I think you misunderstand my suggestion a bit. It’s not that you’ll forever use the 7 iron, but that using it exclusively for a round or two will teach you about scoring and about course management. And then add back the other clubs as you learn to hit them. After all, if he’s mishitting a range of clubs, how is he going to learn to hit them on the course? He’s not, that’s how. You learn to hit clubs on the practice tee, not during a round. Jim, I’m prepared to bet a LOT that you’d score startlingly low using nothing longer than just a 7-iron. Think about it. On a 400-yard par 4, could you tee off and hit your second shot with a 7-iron, and get within 100 yards–in the short stuff? Or closer? Sure you could. And how many 14s would you score like this? Or quintuple bogeys? Or even triples? I agree, you do eliminated the 8s, 9s, etc.. But at what price? If my goal was to shoot bogey golf for the rest of my life, I might recommend that strategy.
Again, the idea is to learn about scoring and about course management. It’s not to forever use a 7 iron. Please go back and re-read the first paragraph. This is a way to think about what shots you hit from various places. I’d argue that a 14 on a hole, for instance, is almost always a sign of bad course management. You aren’t thinking about risk/reward very well, and using a 7 iron exclusively will allow you to learn that idea a bit. Doing this takes OBs out of the equation. You lose very few balls in the woods doing this. You don’t have as many tough shots out of the rough like this. And suddenly, you find yourself with chances to do things that otherwise you couldn’t, because you aren’t hitting through a bush, or behind a tree, or out of horribly deep rough, or where the snakes live, or anything like that. Part of the game is learning how to play off crappy lies and hit creative shots. This method does not make you a better player, just a better scorer IMHO.
Hmmm. I’m confused. If you’re a better scorer, aren’t you by definition a better player? I agree that part of learning the game is learning to play off bad lies and hit creative shots, but is the time to learn that during a scoring round? I occasionally play "practice" rounds with a friend of mine, and we spend time doing all sorts of weird stuff–hitting punch 3-woods under trees, short game shots, hardpan shots, etc., all with the idea of learning the shots so the next time we need them in a round, we have them. Few people are going to learn how to hit any kind of trouble shot if the only time they try to do it is in a regular round. That’s what practice is for, and practice includes all the shots, not just hitting driver off a mat with a rubber tee. As your short game develops, you’ll find that just getting close to the green in regulation is good enough to save par. That’s what you did with your birdie, wasn’t it? It might be tough to expect someone to get up and down every hole. Even pros struggle with that.
Well, I would have thought that obvious. Even *I* don’t get up and down all the time. Your short game can cover flaws in other parts of your game, and a good short game can take the pressure off other shots, knowing that even if you miss the green, you still have the confidence to get the ball up and down. You may get much better on your short game (a very good thing) but there are better ways to get better on short game,
Did you think I meant that he should hit the 7-iron all the time to improve the short game? I can’t see where you got that out of what I wrote. for 1, you can practice it more than anything else. Putting that much pressure on your short game (for a beginner) is a sure way to lose confidence in it. He’ll probably struggle to get up and down consistently at first and lose even more confidence.
This is bizarre. What do you think is happening now? Someone who scores a lot of triples, quints, and even 14s is not hitting the green in regulation. I sincerely doubt he’s mishitting 5 shots in the fairway and then puring a 6 iron onto the green. Sooner or later he’s got to be getting close to the green, at which point short game shots would be useful, don’t you think? When you’re routinely scoring quints and triples, how much pressure do you think there is on ANY part of your game? Play to the next shot. Hit the club you know you can hit, not one you think you should be able to his (but really can’t with any consistency). I kinda agree with this. Smart golf is good golf.
You kinda agree? It all depends on whether you want to score low, or whether you want to pretend you’re like a pro and hit the shots they can hit, even though you can’t hit that shot with any frequency. If you don’t think that advice is sound, what advice would trump it, and who’s a proponent of it, other than you? But like Jimmy Buffet says, "the wrong thing is the right thing until you lose control". You can take smart golf too far.
What happens then? Does it turn inside out and become dumb golf? If you’re playing a par 5 in a match and your opponent pures a 3-wood and puts it 4 feet from the hole in two, does it make sense to try to match it? Probably. But that’s managing a competition, not a score, and it’s not something a newbie needs concern himself about right now. Part of the mental game is to know when the risk is worth it.
Sounds like course management to me. Perhaps you’d like to offer some suggestions to him about how to do it. I’ve already done that. Playing with a 7-iron around is not managing the course and your game, it’s just managing bogeys and a few pars (once in a while a birdie).
But it’s not forever, which is apparently what you think my suggestion was. Playing with a 7-iron is simply a way to get away from mishitting shot after shot, and instead start thinking about scoring. It is a way to teach course management and get to think about how to score, rather than just whaling away. You’ll note that I suggested he play only down to the club he hits consistently, and then add additional clubs as he gains some facility with them. What’s your advice? My advice is boring. See your pro.
Oh. Kind of a copout, don’t you think? I suspect he wants a bit of a suggestion here and now to work on. Perhaps he can’t afford a pro right now. Perhaps he’s the type to work on his game as a hobby, who enjoys figuring it out. Perhaps none of that. But I tried to give him some ideas he might work on, if he finds any of them attractive. What did you give him? Work with him on all aspects of the game. There are few short cuts. It will pay off, but you have to be patient.
I’ve got to tell you, Art, I’m not sure what you were disagreeing with in terms of all of this. He posted some comments, I responded. Your rejoinder to me simply complicates the issue. The guy’s a newbie, but you’re telling him to continue doing what he’s doing (which is getting him quints and 14s), and offering little hope of improvement. I offered not only a way to improve the score radically, but a way to think about and learn course management. I also clearly noted that he should add back the other clubs as he’s able to hit them. Most people want some kind of advice here, and often with a defense of why it’s sound advice. Mike — Mike Dalecki I do not patronize spammers! Help keep R.S.G clean. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
<snip One of the big advancements in my approach to the game was to stop trying to hit the shots I know the pros can hit (and by extension, that I should be able to hit, right?). Instead, I look to hit shots I know I can hit with a high likelihood of success, even when they look to concede bogey right off the bat. For instance, don’t automatically take out the 3-wood when you’re 260 yards from the green on a par 5. You’re not going to put it on, are you? I wouldn’t be able to. Instead, hit a shot where you can put yourself in position to put the next shot on the green. So hit a 7-iron, or 5-iron, or whatever to the layup distance you like the best.
I couldn’t agree more. I had a round of Jekyll and Hyde last Saturday. Went all out on the front nine trying to hit every GIR into a fierce 3 club wind. I was spraying balls everywhere and had an 8 and a 9 and doubled the first par 3. The result? 50! Fortunately I had the common sense to back off on the back and shot a 44 (did have two double bogies thought) using the strategy of laying up on holes into the wind. I even parred two of them (a par 4 and a par 5 into the wind) as my confidence grew and my putter got hot. <snipped your account of a hole, well done up and down BTW One approach is to play a round with nothing longer than a 5 iron. Or a 7-iron. Or the longest club you can hit decently and consistently. Then, when you’ve mastered that (won’t take as long as you think), start adding back the longer clubs when you’ve developed a swing that will let you hit them consistently.
Sorry, I can’t agree here. Shooting only a 7 or shorter ALL THE TIME can be dangerous. I did it in my "search for scoring". I did score pretty good numbers but screwed my swing up. You can get away with some hand movement and manipulation with short irons that is death with the long clubs. Your margin for error is much greater. You also have a much more vertical plane so you have trouble when you move to the flatter plane of the bigger clubs. Jim, I’m prepared to bet a LOT that you’d score startlingly low using nothing longer than just a 7-iron. Think about it. On a 400-yard par 4, could you tee off and hit your second shot with a 7-iron, and get within 100 yards–in the short stuff? Or closer? Sure you could. And how many 14s would you score like this? Or quintuple bogeys? Or even triples?
I agree, you do eliminated the 8s, 9s, etc.. But at what price? If my goal was to shoot bogey golf for the rest of my life, I might recommend that strategy. Doing this takes OBs out of the equation. You lose very few balls in the woods doing this. You don’t have as many tough shots out of the rough like this. And suddenly, you find yourself with chances to do things that otherwise you couldn’t, because you aren’t hitting through a bush, or behind a tree, or out of horribly deep rough, or where the snakes live, or anything like that.
Part of the game is learning how to play off crappy lies and hit creative shots. This method does not make you a better player, just a better scorer IMHO. As your short game develops, you’ll find that just getting close to the green in regulation is good enough to save par. That’s what you did with your birdie, wasn’t it?
It might be tough to expect someone to get up and down every hole. Even pros struggle with that. You may get much better on your short game (a very good thing) but there are better ways to get better on short game, for 1, you can practice it more than anything else. Putting that much pressure on your short game (for a beginner) is a sure way to lose confidence in it. He’ll probably struggle to get up and down consistently at first and lose even more confidence. Play to the next shot. Hit the club you know you can hit, not one you think you should be able to his (but really can’t with any consistency).
I kinda agree with this. Smart golf is good golf. But like Jimmy Buffet says, "the wrong thing is the right thing until you lose control". You can take smart golf too far. Part of the mental game is to know when the risk is worth it. Playing with a 7-iron around is not managing the course and your game, it’s just managing bogeys and a few pars (once in a while a birdie). My advice is boring. See your pro. Work with him on all aspects of the game. There are few short cuts. It will pay off, but you have to be patient. Art
Response:
I don’t know, but I suck too, and played 9 holes the other week with a cart, my friend,and his wife played and my wife tagged along for the ride. I played horribly. After 9 holes the girls went home and we tore around for another 8 holes. I never took a practice shot and ran from ball to ball, using the cart at times too I played Bogey I couldn’t believe it, I had a smile for 2 days…… — Darren http://members.xoom.com/RMK700/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started out alone today. Quad, quint, double, double, double, triple, double. I am joined by a guy on a cart. I was going to let him play through, but then I saw he was at about my level of playing, so I ask if he wanted to join up. He said sure and made room in the cart for me. Great! I explain, "Yeah, I’m pretty much a double-bogey golfer." He says, "Yeah, me, too." I finish out the front nine: par, bogey. He begins to eye me suspiciously. I say sheepishly, "I can’t believe I’m playing this well." We get started on the back nine. I make par, double, bogie, triple, and birdie(!). I say sheepishly, "It’s a good thing we don’t have money on this — you’d be ready to kill me about now." He agreed. Well, at this point the Golf Gods had had enough of my aberrant behavior and decided to put me back in my place. A triple, and then a 14 or so — depending on the appropriate number of USGA penalty strokes, though 14 is an honest estimate. My new friend decided I really WAS a pretty poor golfer after all, and not some kind of sandbagger. I finished out the back nine: bogey, triple. So what’s the deal? I think I enjoyed having someone to play with, and that might have improved my golfing. It gets pretty frustrating out there alone, butchering the course. I was seriously considering — right before this guy caught up to me — giving up golf for good. I was thinking, "Well, I don’t have that much time and money invested in this golf thing. I could walk off the course right now, and never have to endure this masochistic pastime again." And then this guy shows up and I start having some fun — there’s a little comeraderie. He was actually a pleasant guy and very complimentary of my "good fortune." And did riding in the cart help? Walking takes it out of me, I have to admit. It was relatively cool today — in the nineties with some cloud cover — but riding in a cart may have had a positive effect on my golfing. Well, the upshot is that, though my cumulative score was pretty bad, I had some of the best damn holes of my life! Two pars (I’ve only had one par in my life before this) and a birdie (my first!). The bird came on a par 4. Two shots to the fringe of the green, and then I chipped it in from about 10 feet (another first!). I’ve been practicing my short game a lot lately and it’s really helped. Before you buy.
Response:
<interesting story of bizarre round snipped Jim, let me suggest a couple things that might improve both your scores and your enjoyment of the game. One of the big advancements in my approach to the game was to stop trying to hit the shots I know the pros can hit (and by extension, that I should be able to hit, right?). Instead, I look to hit shots I know I can hit with a high likelihood of success, even when they look to concede bogey right off the bat. For instance, don’t automatically take out the 3-wood when you’re 260 yards from the green on a par 5. You’re not going to put it on, are you? I wouldn’t be able to. Instead, hit a shot where you can put yourself in position to put the next shot on the green. So hit a 7-iron, or 5-iron, or whatever to the layup distance you like the best. Yesterday, par 4, 375, into the wind. Uphill approach to an elevated green. I hit about a 200 yard drive into the wind, leaving me the 175 uphill into the wind. I don’t really have this shot, although I could have tried the 3-wood. The problem yesterday is that the 3-wood was spraying, and I didn’t want to lose the hole to a mishit of epic proportions. So I hit an ok 3-iron which leaked right, but which I got to within about 10 yards of the green. Not great, but serviceable, as I could then hit a little lob shot to the green. I did, in fact, get up and down for a par. But I didn’t do anything stupid on the hole. I accepted the fact that given the wind and terrain, a par was going to be hard. But I got one anyway, because I put myself in position to have a chance. One approach is to play a round with nothing longer than a 5 iron. Or a 7-iron. Or the longest club you can hit decently and consistently. Then, when you’ve mastered that (won’t take as long as you think), start adding back the longer clubs when you’ve developed a swing that will let you hit them consistently. Jim, I’m prepared to bet a LOT that you’d score startlingly low using nothing longer than just a 7-iron. Think about it. On a 400-yard par 4, could you tee off and hit your second shot with a 7-iron, and get within 100 yards–in the short stuff? Or closer? Sure you could. And how many 14s would you score like this? Or quintuple bogeys? Or even triples? Doing this takes OBs out of the equation. You lose very few balls in the woods doing this. You don’t have as many tough shots out of the rough like this. And suddenly, you find yourself with chances to do things that otherwise you couldn’t, because you aren’t hitting through a bush, or behind a tree, or out of horribly deep rough, or where the snakes live, or anything like that. As your short game develops, you’ll find that just getting close to the green in regulation is good enough to save par. That’s what you did with your birdie, wasn’t it? Play to the next shot. Hit the club you know you can hit, not one you think you should be able to his (but really can’t with any consistency). Mike — Mike Dalecki I do not patronize spammers! Help keep R.S.G clean. RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
That’s called "improvement." It happens at every level of golf. Your swing is improving such that you can string together a few in a row once in a while and get a par, or maybe even birdie on occasion, but then you’ll regress and have some bad holes. Sounds like you’ll be breaking 100 on a regular basis soon. I think everyone has those days. I usually play a little bit better than bogey golf, anywhere from 80-90, but occasionally I’ll find a groove or get into a zone where I just have all the confidence in the world in my swing and start stringing some pars together. It’s usually on the back nine, which sucks because I’ve done most of my playing this year in a nine-hole league. This year I’ve had two rounds where for the last 11 holes I was 1-over, and 2-over par, and these weren’t cake courses. Of course for the rest of the round I was 14 over and 6 over respectively. Golf is repetition, practice, and concentration, especially concentration. To improve your score, you have to work on getting rid of the bad holes more than increasing the good holes. The good holes will come, but it’s tough to go around without the triples or worse. That’s course management, and I’m not good at it. You know in your head you should play conservatively and not try shots where there’s a 50-50 chance of disaster, but you do it anyway. Then a bogie becomes a triple or a double becomes a quint.
Response:
Stephanie, thanks for your response, and I enjoyed your story. I’m shy about meeting strangers, too. Where I live, and the time of day I like to play, it’s pretty easy to play alone. But I think there’s something to be said for having someone around to say, "Nice putt," or "Tough break," etc. Keep us posted on your progress, and the best of luck to you! — Jim Before you buy.
Response:
I’m always afraid of being paired up, though it’s never happened so far…I dont know if it would help or hurt for me to play with strangers. I’m kind of shy. I’m sure i’ll find out sooner or later, I’ve just been lucky so far. stephanie
I too was like that when I first started last year. But where I play, it’s just to busy to expect to play by yourself. So I only got one game in by myself before I was paired with other players. At first, when you are new to the game, you feel very awkward being paired with strangers that you know will be a lot better than you. I remember one tee shot where I swung and missed the ball completely. Took a breath, said to my self, "ok, I can do this, hold your head down", swing 2, missed again. Agh! Swing 3, mis 3. Agh agh!, swing 4, finally got the damn ball off the teeing ground. Felt like dieing. But what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Playing with others is always a lot more fun that playing alone I find. It adds another dimension to the game that I think is as much apart of the game as ball striking. If you are not being watched, then you just aren’t playing golf. Sometimes the people you play with will make you play better, sometimes they will make you play a lot worse, but if you just accept that this just another aspect of the good day/bad day nature of golf and don’t let the bad days get you down, I think you will end up enjoying the game even more. After all, it’s the bad days that make the good days so good. — Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
Response:
Enjoyed reading your story Jim, I’m at about the same level, and have just started actualy playing, after about nine months on the range. I’ve played about 10 rounds and most of them have been by myself, other than three with a friend who is a worse golfer than me (he never practices). I usually get at least one par in a round, but many triple and double bogies, or worse. I have scored each time between 100 and 110, and even on the worst rounds, something good happens that has never happened before, there always seems to be at least one "first" in there hehe…Day before yestereday, got a quintuple bogey on a par 3.. try to put it out of my head. Next hole, a 500 yard par 5, I have short drive (but in the fairway at least which lately is rare), good second shot and third shot with my 5 wood ( there was a creek in front of green and i really should have "laid up" because i knew i had to hit a really good shot for me with the 5 wood to carry it..decided to go for it) I got on the green..barely, but it was my first ever green in regulation on a par 5)…two putted from 60 feet, my first par on a par 5, then I parred the next hole, a par 3, got double on the next and another par on the next…that was the best string of holes i’ve ever had, i usually only have one or two pars and never so close together..for a moment i felt like a real golfer but then went back to my triples and quads LOL. Yesterday i was having an awwful time of ball hitting on the course, but was enjoying being out there a lot…hit my fourth shot on a par 5 from 30 yards off the green with PW and it looks like it’s going to land right at the hole…instead it gets into flagstick and ricochets off the green..I think "what a lousy break"…then I chipped it infor par from about 30 feet, with a break even, my first ever chip in..it was cool looking hehe.my only par yesterday..you’re right practicing the short game sure does pay off, something i’ve only recently started doing….boy i do love this game..I’m always afraid of being paired up, though it’s never happened so far…I dont know if it would help or hurt for me to play with strangers. I’m kind of shy. I’m sure i’ll find out sooner or later, I’ve just been lucky so far. stephanie
Response:
I started out alone today. Quad, quint, double, double, double, triple, double. I am joined by a guy on a cart. I was going to let him play through, but then I saw he was at about my level of playing, so I ask if he wanted to join up. He said sure and made room in the cart for me. Great! I explain, "Yeah, I’m pretty much a double-bogey golfer." He says, "Yeah, me, too." I finish out the front nine: par, bogey. He begins to eye me suspiciously. I say sheepishly, "I can’t believe I’m playing this well." We get started on the back nine. I make par, double, bogie, triple, and birdie(!). I say sheepishly, "It’s a good thing we don’t have money on this — you’d be ready to kill me about now." He agreed. Well, at this point the Golf Gods had had enough of my aberrant behavior and decided to put me back in my place. A triple, and then a 14 or so — depending on the appropriate number of USGA penalty strokes, though 14 is an honest estimate. My new friend decided I really WAS a pretty poor golfer after all, and not some kind of sandbagger. I finished out the back nine: bogey, triple. So what’s the deal? I think I enjoyed having someone to play with, and that might have improved my golfing. It gets pretty frustrating out there alone, butchering the course. I was seriously considering — right before this guy caught up to me — giving up golf for good. I was thinking, "Well, I don’t have that much time and money invested in this golf thing. I could walk off the course right now, and never have to endure this masochistic pastime again." And then this guy shows up and I start having some fun — there’s a little comeraderie. He was actually a pleasant guy and very complimentary of my "good fortune." And did riding in the cart help? Walking takes it out of me, I have to admit. It was relatively cool today — in the nineties with some cloud cover — but riding in a cart may have had a positive effect on my golfing. Well, the upshot is that, though my cumulative score was pretty bad, I had some of the best damn holes of my life! Two pars (I’ve only had one par in my life before this) and a birdie (my first!). The bird came on a par 4. Two shots to the fringe of the green, and then I chipped it in from about 10 feet (another first!). I’ve been practicing my short game a lot lately and it’s really helped. Before you buy.